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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hey everyone, it's me Maya. I recently had the pleasure

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Speaker 2: of launching my new book, The Other Side of Change

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Speaker 2: with literary royalty Michael Lewis. Michael, it seems, knows only

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Speaker 2: how to write bestsellers that also tend to get turned

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Speaker 2: into big budget movies like Moneyball, The Big Short, and

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Speaker 2: The blind Side. He's a star through and through, Needless

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Speaker 2: to say, I was honored that he wanted to host

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Speaker 2: this conversation. I've known Michael for over a decade, and

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Speaker 2: so when we took our seats in front of a

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Speaker 2: live audience in San Francisco, we immediately defaulted to our

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Speaker 2: normal state when hanging out, ribbing another, joking and also

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Speaker 2: going deep. The conversation you're about to hear is one

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Speaker 2: of my favorites from my book tour. We talked about

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Speaker 2: my experience writing The Other Side of Change, starting this podcast,

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Speaker 2: and how we think about navigating life's hardest moments. I

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Speaker 2: hope you enjoy it.

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Speaker 3: So I have here to my right, Maya Schucker, who

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Speaker 3: is a friend from We Go Back. I was working

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Speaker 3: on the Undoing project story of Danny Kannoman and I

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Speaker 3: met you at the Kennedy School.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I asked, if you want to do my friend.

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Speaker 3: Yes, she did, That's exactly right, send.

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Speaker 1: You to email.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to listen to her presentation she was giving.

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Speaker 3: She was working in the White House at that point,

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Speaker 3: you're working, you were a behavioral like what was your title?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, behavioral scientist.

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Speaker 3: All right, So I've watched I've watched iterations of Maya.

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Speaker 3: You know, that was my White House Maya, Public Policy Maya.

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Speaker 3: And now then she became Google Maya, and then she

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Speaker 3: became podcast Maya, and now she's author Maya, and she

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Speaker 3: you know, eventually you be Nobel Prize winning Maya. Now

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Speaker 3: and I got to talk for forty five minutes, and

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Speaker 3: then we're going to open it up to questions, and

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Speaker 3: the conversation is going is we're going to talk about

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Speaker 3: the book. But before we talk about the book, I

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Speaker 3: want to talk about you. We're going to start with you,

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Speaker 3: and I want you. I want to start with because

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Speaker 3: the book grows out of your podcast Slight Shade, your Plans,

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Speaker 3: and I was present at the birth of your podcast.

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Speaker 3: We share a podcast company, Pushkin, and they're here there.

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Speaker 3: I think they're recording it for the podcast. So I

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Speaker 3: want let's just start by how you got interested in

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Speaker 3: the subject of change in people's lives and and let's

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Speaker 3: talk a little bitut the podcast, how you got into

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Speaker 3: this in the first place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, first of all, thank you all

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Speaker 2: of you so much for coming. It's so much fun

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Speaker 2: to do this in San Francisco because it does feel

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Speaker 2: like a celebration with friends and family and some new faces.

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Speaker 2: But I am very humbled that all of you took

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Speaker 2: some time out of your evening to spend it with me,

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Speaker 2: and like mostly Michael, stop it so we know who

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Speaker 2: pulled the weight on this invitation. It's okay, okay, So

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Speaker 2: how did I get interested in the topic of change?

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Speaker 2: So twenty twenty, the beginning was was a little tough

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Speaker 2: for me personally because after years of trying to start

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Speaker 2: a family with my husband Jimmy, we found out I

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Speaker 2: think it was early March that our surrogate in Arkansas

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Speaker 2: had miscarried, and so this big dream that I had

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Speaker 2: of becoming a mom was just in a moment shattered.

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Speaker 2: And I had had a lot of formative experiences with

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Speaker 2: change as a kid, you know, losing the violin.

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Speaker 3: With those dream don't just glass over there talk about

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Speaker 3: that for a minute.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's start.

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Speaker 2: So from the time I was a little kid, violin

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Speaker 2: was the center of my life, and when I was nine,

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Speaker 2: I started studying at Juilliard. When I was a teenager,

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Speaker 2: it's off Pearlman invited me to be his private violin student.

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Speaker 2: That was sort of the vote of confidence I needed

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Speaker 2: to think, Hey, maybe I have what it could take

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Speaker 2: to become a professional. And it was the first time

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Speaker 2: I remember talking with my siblings and my parents like

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Speaker 2: maybe conservatory is a real option versus, you know, the

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Speaker 2: standard liberal arts college. And then everything was going according

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Speaker 2: to plan until I had my slight change of plans

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Speaker 2: and a hand injury that I sustained while playing the violin,

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Speaker 2: and did my dreams kind of in a moment, you know,

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Speaker 2: doctors told me that I could no longer play the violin.

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Speaker 3: How were you fifteen, okay, and what was your response

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Speaker 3: to that? How'd you feel?

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Speaker 2: I was surprised by how hard I took it. But

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Speaker 2: then I think about the fact that when you're fifteen

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Speaker 2: and you've played the violin since you were six, that's

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Speaker 2: a sizeable fraction of your life, and so the loss

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Speaker 2: feels pretty big, and it's hard to understate my devotion

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Speaker 2: to the craft. My sister would say he was in

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Speaker 2: the front row that when I was not home, she

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Speaker 2: would actually hear phantom sounds of the violin playing. It

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Speaker 2: was like her worst nightmare. It was so horrible. I'm

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Speaker 2: so sorry, Mirah. And also my life was oriented around

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Speaker 2: the violin. So every Saturday I would wake up at

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Speaker 2: four thirty in the morning to train to New York

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Speaker 2: with my mom. I would spend ten hours there and

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Speaker 2: taking classes, come home at ten thirty at night. And

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Speaker 2: there were just a lot of sacrifices involved, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it was just a huge part of my identity. And

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Speaker 2: so I think what was interesting to me when I

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Speaker 2: lost it is that I felt like I was grieving

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Speaker 2: the loss of the instrument, sure, but more importantly the

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Speaker 2: loss of myself in this more fundamental way.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was the thing that.

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Speaker 2: Made me feel like I was special and I was

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Speaker 2: good at something, and that I belonged. You know, I

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Speaker 2: was bullied in school, and violin and that whole community

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Speaker 2: was a refuge for me.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it just was really entangled with my self worth.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you flash forward many years and you're telling

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Speaker 3: stories of other people's adaptive strategies. Did you have a strategy?

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Speaker 3: What did you do?

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Speaker 1: I doubled down on watching MTV. All right, I was

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Speaker 1: super MOPy.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have any good strategies or coping mechanisms as

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Speaker 2: a fifteen year old, I was just like, this sucks.

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Speaker 2: I was also very, very stubborn, so I kept playing

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Speaker 2: through the pain. I had hand surgery. I took an

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Speaker 2: absurd amount of anti inflammatories. Eventually doctors were like, kid,

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Speaker 2: you got to do what You've got to stop. This

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Speaker 2: is clearly not going to resolve itself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at that moment, where did all that energy go?

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Speaker 1: So my dad gave me good advice.

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Speaker 2: So was the summer before college, and I was having

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Speaker 2: serious imposter syndrome because I thought, well, Violen's the only

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Speaker 2: reason I even got into college in the first place,

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Speaker 2: and I don't even have that thing. So now what

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Speaker 2: do I do? And he said, you've effectively been wearing

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Speaker 2: blinders for the last ten years. Your job this summer

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Speaker 2: is to basically be an explorer. I want you to

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Speaker 2: read as much as you can possibly read, when to

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Speaker 2: talk to as many people as you possibly can. I

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Speaker 2: just want you to feed your curiosity and to do

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Speaker 2: it in a way that doesn't have a goal attached

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Speaker 2: to it, because if you're if you're exploring the world

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Speaker 2: hoping that you're going to figure out what your college

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Speaker 2: major is going to be, it's going to be limiting

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Speaker 2: in a way.

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Speaker 3: And he knows that he knew his daughter you were

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Speaker 3: so goal.

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Speaker 2: Orient Yes, And I really like clarity and I really

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Speaker 2: like certainty, so I was going to latch onto anything.

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Speaker 2: It was like, Okay, can I pull off being a

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Speaker 2: history major? Okay, I'll go with that. And I'm really

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Speaker 2: glad that I didn't do this with a concrete goal

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Speaker 2: in mind, because I didn't even know that cognitive science

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Speaker 2: was a thing. And it just so happens that I

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Speaker 2: read Stephen Pinker's book, The Language Instinct. It was in

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Speaker 2: the basement of my parents. My sister had read it

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Speaker 2: in college.

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Speaker 3: Which you wouldn't have read if your father.

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Speaker 1: Didn't absolutely not.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would probably have just skiinned the course catalog

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Speaker 2: and been like, which is the one where I feel

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Speaker 2: like I could actually do okay in it?

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Speaker 1: That would probably have been my strategy, and it was.

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Speaker 2: The book was all about our brain's extraordinary capacity for language,

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Speaker 2: and I had always taken my language abilities for granted.

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Speaker 2: I just didn't really think about them. And this book

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Speaker 2: detailed the sophisticated cognitive machinery that's operating behind the scenes

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Speaker 2: that gives rise to language, and I was totally enraptured.

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Speaker 1: I was like, whoa, this is totally crazy.

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Speaker 2: And it would share things like think about how a

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Speaker 2: little kid learns language, right, They just hear a continuous

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Speaker 2: stream of sound. There's no parsing between words. Kids just

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Speaker 2: figure out when one word stops and the next word begins.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, WHOA, that's crazy, Like you never really

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Speaker 2: teach them grammar, and they like, somehow learn grammar and

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Speaker 2: grammar anyone who has learned English as a second language

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Speaker 2: knows English is not an easy language. It doesn't make

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Speaker 2: any sense grammatically, like what is going on? And so

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Speaker 2: I just remember having this moment of awe, like wow,

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Speaker 2: I feel genuinely interested in this topic. I'm very curious

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Speaker 2: about it. I want to know more than just language.

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Speaker 2: And then I looked in the course catalog and I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, there's a cognitive science major. It's it

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Speaker 2: combines philosophy, linguistics, neuroscience, computer science, biology, neurobiology, and you.

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Speaker 2: You ask a question about the brain from multiple perspectives.

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Speaker 3: So this trauma in your life that comes from.

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Speaker 2: Me, little little t trauma No no, no concert violinists herself.

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Speaker 4: You can't study at Juilliard anymore, like kind of slightly.

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Speaker 4: You motored through it pretty well. You motored through pretty well.

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Speaker 4: I just want to pay respect to true trauma because

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Speaker 4: we're gonna get to that. We're gonna get there's an

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Speaker 4: awful lot of it in this book. Let's come close

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Speaker 4: to the present. You are, your surrogate has lost the child.

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Speaker 4: How does that lead to a podcast?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: So one thing that was surprising to me is despite

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Speaker 2: having gone through this violin shift and learning whatever I

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Speaker 2: subconsciously learned from it, I wasn't consciously being like, what

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Speaker 2: lessons should I draw from this experience?

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Speaker 1: And I sorry, I was just.

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Speaker 2: Waving to Jimmy who came in to my husband ill

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Speaker 2: and sorry to embarrass you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to get to I.

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Speaker 2: So anyway, I I had had these formative experiences, and

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Speaker 2: I wasn't, you know, consciously drawing lessons. But I felt like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I built some thicker skin, and I found myself reeling.

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Speaker 1: After the miscarriage.

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Speaker 2: I remember, yes, and I as someone who's quite social,

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Speaker 2: I also felt like it was very, very hard for

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Speaker 2: me to communicate with people. I remember I texted my

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Speaker 2: family and was like, this happened. I can't talk to anyone.

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Speaker 2: Please don't call me. I don't want to talk to

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Speaker 2: anyone for like many days, and I finally mustered up

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Speaker 2: the courage and I called my brother aj because it

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Speaker 2: just felt like I had to reach out to someone,

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Speaker 2: and he was wonderful, but I was just really struggling.

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Speaker 2: I think the biggest reason I was struggling with that

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Speaker 2: was I love being in control and I'm very used

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Speaker 2: to hustling my way to solutions. So if I face

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Speaker 2: an obstacle there's a barrier in my life, I will

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Speaker 2: just work harder.

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Speaker 1: I'll just figure out a way.

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Speaker 2: I'm very creative and very resourceful when it comes to

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Speaker 2: finding a way to the finish line, and relentless right

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Speaker 2: but much to my mom's chagrin, And so for that reason,

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Speaker 2: I felt this sense of powerlessness that was so discomfiting

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Speaker 2: for me, because I was like, oh, wow, in the

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Speaker 2: world of fertility and whether pregnancies work or not work,

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Speaker 2: there's no such thing as hustling or hard work. The

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Speaker 2: universe is totally indifferent towards the depth of my desire

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Speaker 2: for this outcome. Doesn't really care how hard I'm working

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Speaker 2: at their fertility, at the egg retrievals.

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Speaker 1: None of that matters.

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Speaker 2: And I really struggled with this feeling of contending with

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Speaker 2: the true limits of my control. That was very hard

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Speaker 2: for me psychologically, and that's what introduced me to this

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Speaker 2: whole world of change.

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Speaker 3: All right.

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Speaker 2: And then I was at a party of a person

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Speaker 2: who's here, Adele, and I was talking with my friend Christine.

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Speaker 2: We were talking about the idea of a podcast. Oh

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Speaker 2: you're sitting right next to each other, Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Guys in this room. You don't know.

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Speaker 2: It makes me look bad. My goal of is all

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Speaker 2: just my friends and family. I would say thirty percent,

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Speaker 2: I know, okay, all right, seventy percent are true strangers

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Speaker 2: and we're just so captivated by the title of the book.

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Speaker 2: So I was brainstorming with my friend Christine, and then

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Speaker 2: we came up with the idea of, oh, wouldn't it

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Speaker 2: be amazing if there was a podcast about change? And

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Speaker 2: I wasn't quite sure what that looked like yet. In fact,

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Speaker 2: at first, I thought maybe you'd be career change. And

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Speaker 2: my friend Max's in the podcasting business. He told me, Maya,

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Speaker 2: don't wait until there's a proper proposal, right, just record something.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, okay, he's just get into the

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Speaker 2: deep ense. So I got my android phone, I hit

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Speaker 2: record it. I interviewed Jimmy, my husband, about his career shifts,

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Speaker 2: and I sent it to one of my best friends, Aggie,

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Speaker 2: who's sitting in the back of the room, and she said, girl,

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Speaker 2: I really love you and Jimmy, and this is so boring.

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Speaker 2: This is a terrible podcast. And you had a competitive

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Speaker 2: edge with me because I actually like you guys.

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Speaker 3: So Jimmy's very entertaining with the problem.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I brought it down.

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Speaker 3: I can guess what the problem was.

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Speaker 1: What do you think it was?

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Speaker 3: The stakes were so low?

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Speaker 1: I mean, the stakes are too low.

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Speaker 3: What is like, who cares about people's career changes?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, the stakes aren't high enough exactly the

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Speaker 2: reasons I described. Yeah, then it just became a podcast

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Speaker 2: about people's unbelievable changes in their personal lives. And the

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Speaker 2: first person that I interviewed was Darryl Davis, This black

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Speaker 2: jazz musician who convinced dozens of people to leave the

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Speaker 2: Ku Klux Klan because of his incredible persuasive powers and

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Speaker 2: his ability to understand what it means to empathize with

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Speaker 2: people who even have vile views, right, and how to

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Speaker 2: actually get them to change their minds. And I remember

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Speaker 2: I'd put him as one of my dream guests on

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Speaker 2: my podcast proposal, and then I was able to get him,

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Speaker 2: and that was just the best day. Turns out there's

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Speaker 2: three Darryl Davis's in the world, and one of them

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Speaker 2: also agree to be on the podcast. He's actually a

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Speaker 2: speaking coach, which is not ideal.

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Speaker 3: All right. So now we're gonna move to the book.

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Speaker 3: So they are what six seven different profiles. You're one

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Speaker 3: of them.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Unexpectedly, I didn't think that the last chapter would

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Speaker 2: be narrative.

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Speaker 3: I picked three that I want to talk about. Sure,

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Speaker 3: we're going to do case studies, and we're going to

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Speaker 3: figure out what did you tell these stories? And you're

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Speaker 3: gonna explain to us what we can learn from each

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Speaker 3: of these stories. Is that right?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 3: I I mean that's what you've kind of done here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, sorry, that's fair, and that's fair.

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Speaker 2: I want to push back a little bit, and I'm

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Speaker 2: so glad that we coordinated in advance when.

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Speaker 3: We talk about but no one even told me what

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Speaker 3: time I come here.

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Speaker 2: Mike. Michael on the way in was like, I did

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Speaker 2: extremely little prep for this conversation. I just want you

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Speaker 2: guys to know. And I was like, perfect, that sounds great.

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Speaker 2: That's actually the best version of Michael.

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Speaker 1: So this is great. But here's what I want to

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Speaker 1: push back on.

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Speaker 2: I want to give our readers the joy of the

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Speaker 2: story unfolding in the long form version of this.

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Speaker 1: So I don't want to give away endings.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I can talk generally about some of the

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Speaker 2: stories or some of the lessons learned, but I want

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Speaker 2: people to really enjoy it.

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Speaker 1: Their words are always going to beat my words, right, So, well.

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Speaker 3: Back way for just one second before getting too that

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Speaker 3: why did I write a book? No?

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Speaker 1: No, no, you well all right, yeah, we talk about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why did you write a book?

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Speaker 1: Okay?

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Speaker 3: And there's are there plenty of books out there? Who

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Speaker 3: needs another?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And in fact, I.

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Speaker 3: Asked myself that question every time before I write a book,

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Speaker 3: like this, is the world need another?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: And often the answer is no.

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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Richard Taylor had told me so many times like, don't

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Speaker 2: write a book, don't write a book, don't write a book,

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Speaker 2: and I started to taking it personally. I was like, okay, dude,

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Speaker 2: you have to even see my writing yet, like why

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Speaker 2: do you feel why do you feel so strongly about this?

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Speaker 1: But what he was trying to say is so many

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Speaker 1: authors get into.

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Speaker 2: The business for the wrong reasons and kind of like

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Speaker 2: the Bachelor, right, you got to be here for the

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Speaker 2: right reasons for it to work. But the reason that

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Speaker 2: I wrote it is because one, I love learning new skills.

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Speaker 2: So I at the time, I was lucky enough that

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Speaker 2: I had talent representation and my agents at CAAA had

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Speaker 2: been asking me for a really long time will you

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Speaker 2: write a book?

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Speaker 1: We write a book?

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Speaker 2: And by the way, initially, I mean I said no

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Speaker 2: for about a year and a half because I was like,

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Speaker 2: it was never on my bucket list to write a book.

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Speaker 2: I was happy to go to my grave not being

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Speaker 2: a published author only. I also only want to take

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Speaker 2: on endeavors if I think I can make something exceptional,

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Speaker 2: which really sets a high bar for you now that

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Speaker 2: you're about to read this book. No, but I want

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Speaker 2: I want to feel it's great. So I really don't

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Speaker 2: like phoning things in. I didn't want to write a

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Speaker 2: mediocre book that was going to be very unsatisfying for me,

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Speaker 2: and so I kept saying no. And so one was, oh,

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Speaker 2: I would love to build a new skill in adulthood.

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Speaker 2: How much fun would that be? And then the second

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Speaker 2: thing was I had to ask myself, will a book

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Speaker 2: give me something that the podcast can't give me? That

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Speaker 2: would be the only reason to do it. I love

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Speaker 2: the podcast. I love audio. Also, people listen to podcasts

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Speaker 2: more than they read books, as evidence by how hard

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Speaker 2: it's been to sell this damn book despite so much hustling.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, you guys, thank you so much, Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for being doing this for two days.

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Speaker 1: So okay, yes, you.

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Speaker 2: Literally do an excerpt from the phone book and it

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Speaker 2: would be a number one Neuror Times bestseller. So you

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Speaker 2: really don't have a lot of credibility here. So annoying

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Speaker 2: how easily you sell books. It's so annoying. Yeah, people

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Speaker 2: were like, hey, when I was asking for advice, I

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Speaker 2: was like, dude, these pre order numbers are paltry, Like

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Speaker 2: what's going on? And then they were like, well, you

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Speaker 2: know authors like why do you talk to Michael Lewis

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Speaker 2: about his experience selling books? And I was like, yes,

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Speaker 2: I will learn zero lessons that are applicable to my

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Speaker 2: life as an author.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Anyway, I digress.

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Speaker 2: I realized that as I was recording all these podcast

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Speaker 2: episodes about people's incredible lives, so it was like stories

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Speaker 2: of illness, stories of a dream loss, stories of a

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Speaker 2: job lost, and stories of just unexpected wile and will

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Speaker 2: drop from the sky style changes. I noticed there are

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Speaker 2: some really interesting connections. In fact, sorry, she also mentioned

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Speaker 2: your daughter, who I interviewed quinn Is for the podcast.

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Speaker 2: She was a guest of mine. I noticed that there

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Speaker 2: were really interesting connections across stories. So we are often

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Speaker 2: told when something crappy happens to us going through a divorce,

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Speaker 2: it's like, oh my god, my friend's going through a divorce.

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Speaker 1: You should talk to them.

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Speaker 2: Oh I lost a loved one. Oh go to the

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Speaker 2: brief section of the bookstore. Oh I'm going through a

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Speaker 2: job thing. Oh yeah, there's a community support group for

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Speaker 2: people losing jobs. And I think that's misguided. What matters

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Speaker 2: is a shared psychology in the face of change. So

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Speaker 2: what I've noticed is that people going through wildly different

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Speaker 2: changes on their surface have so much more in common

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Speaker 2: when it comes to both the problem statement and the

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Speaker 2: solution set. So to make this concrete, I interviewed a

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Speaker 2: cancer patient and I interviewed a woman who had been

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Speaker 2: betrayed by her husband. She found out he had had

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Speaker 2: a decade long affair. They were both grappling with a

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Speaker 2: deep feeling of betrayal. So they were both struggling with

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Speaker 2: this thing, and they had much more in common than

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Speaker 2: the person with cancer did with someone else who had

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Speaker 2: an illness or disease. And for me, there was just

402
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Speaker 2: this light bulb moment of Okay, there are these universal things,

403
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Speaker 2: like this stuff of change that's worth sharing with people.

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Speaker 2: Right we're bristling at the world's unfairness. We are anxious

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Speaker 2: about all the uncertainty that lies ahead. We're grieving an

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Speaker 2: identity that we've lost or a pass that was so recent,

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Speaker 2: like we can feel it. We can feel yet yesterday.

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Speaker 2: It's so intoxicating to go. I'm quoting the Beatles by accident.

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Speaker 2: We can feel two days ago. Does that know that

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00:19:17,196 --> 00:19:21,596
Speaker 2: still clouds to plagiarism? Okay, yesterday, you just want it

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00:19:21,596 --> 00:19:23,316
Speaker 2: it's elusive. But it's like, if I could just get

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Speaker 2: my life back, that would be so amazing. Or we're

413
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Speaker 2: catastrophizing the future, playing out every worst case scenario. Right,

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Speaker 2: That is the stuff of change. And so my view was, okay,

415
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Speaker 2: it was a bunch of common problems. Then any story

416
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Speaker 2: will resonate with anyone who's going through any kind of change.

417
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Speaker 2: And then the solution set, the set of recommendations that

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Speaker 2: I make, either based in cognitive science or just in

419
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Speaker 2: people's wisdom, will also resonate.

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Speaker 3: But if they're all the same, why he needs seven

421
00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:48,796
Speaker 3: different ones?

422
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Speaker 2: No, sorry, different lessons emerge from different story. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 2: good thing, you weren't my editor? Not exactly, not exactly. Motivation,

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Speaker 2: He's like, couldn't this have been an Atlantic article?

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a good question to ask oneself before one

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Speaker 3: sits down to write a book.

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Speaker 2: And that's also a good thing about operators should ask

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Speaker 2: one's author before one sits down, and one's author.

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Speaker 3: But your point wasn't that all these people have the

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Speaker 3: same thing in common. Your point is that sometimes the

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Speaker 3: cancer patient hards something in common with a person who's

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Speaker 3: has been cheated on her.

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Speaker 2: Bet I'm making is that when people read this book,

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Speaker 2: which I hope they do, they will find resonance in

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00:20:32,956 --> 00:20:34,236
Speaker 2: an unexpected story.

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Speaker 1: Okay, because of the lesson that emerges from it.

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Speaker 3: Before we again, before we get into this specific story,

438
00:20:38,556 --> 00:20:40,236
Speaker 3: since you're not going to tell them all the way, Yeah,

439
00:20:40,276 --> 00:20:44,316
Speaker 3: we have a little more time. Yes, is in your

440
00:20:44,396 --> 00:20:47,196
Speaker 3: mind you when you started the podcast? Yeah, well you

441
00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:51,196
Speaker 3: think change is always bad change? Is it always loss

442
00:20:51,396 --> 00:20:52,836
Speaker 3: that you do? How about gain?

443
00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:56,716
Speaker 2: So it's a great question. Yeah, I was thinking about

444
00:20:56,716 --> 00:20:59,276
Speaker 2: bad change because who wants to hear No one's interested

445
00:20:59,316 --> 00:21:02,116
Speaker 2: in reading about good change. Okay, I'm here to brag

446
00:21:02,156 --> 00:21:05,556
Speaker 2: about how wonderful my latest promotion was. It's true that

447
00:21:05,596 --> 00:21:08,436
Speaker 2: there's a flip side to good change, because of course

448
00:21:08,476 --> 00:21:11,116
Speaker 2: we're about it affecting forecasting, and we get things wrong

449
00:21:11,236 --> 00:21:14,156
Speaker 2: and it turns out lottery winners are miserable. Blah blah

450
00:21:14,156 --> 00:21:17,356
Speaker 2: blah blah blah. Okay, fine, that's all true, But I

451
00:21:17,396 --> 00:21:19,796
Speaker 2: don't really think that's the population that needs to be

452
00:21:19,876 --> 00:21:21,916
Speaker 2: served right now. Okay, So I want to help the

453
00:21:21,956 --> 00:21:23,516
Speaker 2: people who are like literally struggling.

454
00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:25,196
Speaker 3: It's lost, you're really yeah?

455
00:21:25,316 --> 00:21:28,716
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And to that point, there was a moment about

456
00:21:28,716 --> 00:21:30,716
Speaker 2: a year into making a slight change of plans that

457
00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:32,356
Speaker 2: I was on a walk and it occurred to me,

458
00:21:33,076 --> 00:21:35,676
Speaker 2: I thought this show was about change, but it's actually

459
00:21:35,676 --> 00:21:40,156
Speaker 2: a show about identity, because every story actually is about

460
00:21:40,196 --> 00:21:42,996
Speaker 2: how people felt that their fundamental sense of self, their

461
00:21:43,036 --> 00:21:45,756
Speaker 2: identity was threatened as a result of the change they

462
00:21:45,796 --> 00:21:46,196
Speaker 2: went through.

463
00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:49,436
Speaker 3: All right, this is an excellent segue to the first story.

464
00:21:49,556 --> 00:21:51,796
Speaker 3: Great and why don't we take them in this order?

465
00:21:52,036 --> 00:21:55,196
Speaker 3: Were the three people I want to talk about? Or Olivia,

466
00:21:55,436 --> 00:21:58,516
Speaker 3: Dwayne and Ingrid. Yeah, so let's start with Olivia.

467
00:21:58,636 --> 00:22:00,996
Speaker 2: Olivia was incredible, and I want you to know, by

468
00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:02,796
Speaker 2: the way, the reason this book took me three and

469
00:22:02,796 --> 00:22:05,156
Speaker 2: a half years to write is one because I have

470
00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,556
Speaker 2: a full time job, but two because it was extremely

471
00:22:08,596 --> 00:22:10,756
Speaker 2: hard for me to find people that I wanted to

472
00:22:10,796 --> 00:22:13,916
Speaker 2: feature in this book. Great stories are so so so

473
00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:14,516
Speaker 2: hard to find.

474
00:22:14,636 --> 00:22:16,796
Speaker 3: Now, these people were in your podcast, correct.

475
00:22:16,516 --> 00:22:19,036
Speaker 2: All the people profiled are not in the podcast. And

476
00:22:19,396 --> 00:22:22,556
Speaker 2: I was very interested not just in the external beats

477
00:22:22,556 --> 00:22:25,396
Speaker 2: of a person's story, but from my vantage point, their

478
00:22:25,476 --> 00:22:28,916
Speaker 2: interior life. Right, So what was shifting within them as

479
00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:30,996
Speaker 2: they went through their change? That was the novel lens

480
00:22:31,036 --> 00:22:32,316
Speaker 2: I was going to bring to the table, which is

481
00:22:32,356 --> 00:22:34,716
Speaker 2: I want to understand maybe the thing that they find

482
00:22:34,716 --> 00:22:36,556
Speaker 2: the hardest isn't the thing that I found would find

483
00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:38,716
Speaker 2: the hardest. It's so easy for us to impose our

484
00:22:38,756 --> 00:22:41,036
Speaker 2: mental frames on other people when they're going through change.

485
00:22:41,076 --> 00:22:44,076
Speaker 2: But my greatest delight as an interviewer is when my

486
00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:46,596
Speaker 2: subjects would prove me wrong and I'd be like, no,

487
00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:49,556
Speaker 2: that wasn't what I was struggling with at all, and

488
00:22:49,596 --> 00:22:50,916
Speaker 2: I'm like, WHOA, that's crazy.

489
00:22:50,996 --> 00:22:51,836
Speaker 1: Tell me more about that.

490
00:22:51,876 --> 00:22:53,996
Speaker 2: I want to know, because I read one article about

491
00:22:53,996 --> 00:22:56,596
Speaker 2: you and I never would have gotten that insight. So Olivia,

492
00:22:56,676 --> 00:22:59,956
Speaker 2: actually she came to me via Instagram. She sent me

493
00:22:59,996 --> 00:23:02,996
Speaker 2: a DM and she said she slid into my DMS

494
00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:06,276
Speaker 2: and she said, hey, I've listened to your podcast.

495
00:23:06,316 --> 00:23:09,316
Speaker 1: A slight change of plans. I have my own story.

496
00:23:09,556 --> 00:23:12,996
Speaker 2: I had a severe brainstem stroke when I was in

497
00:23:12,996 --> 00:23:17,196
Speaker 2: my early twenties and it left me with locked in syndrome. Now,

498
00:23:17,236 --> 00:23:18,916
Speaker 2: for those of you who don't know locked in syndrome

499
00:23:19,036 --> 00:23:21,436
Speaker 2: diving bell and the butterfly that if it brings any bells,

500
00:23:21,876 --> 00:23:24,596
Speaker 2: it basically means that so all of your cognition is preserved.

501
00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:30,676
Speaker 2: But importantly, you cannot voluntarily control any of the muscles

502
00:23:30,676 --> 00:23:34,076
Speaker 2: in your body except for the muscles that move your eyes.

503
00:23:35,116 --> 00:23:38,356
Speaker 2: So your only portal for communicating with the outside world

504
00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:42,516
Speaker 2: is through your blinks. So caregivers will have the letters

505
00:23:42,516 --> 00:23:44,596
Speaker 2: of an alphabet on a board and they will slide

506
00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:47,036
Speaker 2: their finger across those letters, and then a person with

507
00:23:47,116 --> 00:23:48,636
Speaker 2: locked in will have to blink when they get to

508
00:23:48,756 --> 00:23:52,956
Speaker 2: the correct letter, and that's how they painstakingly spell outwards.

509
00:23:53,636 --> 00:23:55,836
Speaker 2: And so Olivia tells me that she's going through this

510
00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:58,516
Speaker 2: when she's twenty one years old, twenty two years old?

511
00:23:58,516 --> 00:23:59,956
Speaker 3: Oh is she before this happens too?

512
00:24:00,076 --> 00:24:01,996
Speaker 2: Well, I'll get to that, Michael. I'm trying to do

513
00:24:02,036 --> 00:24:04,436
Speaker 2: a you know, a story of a tension Denu mal

514
00:24:04,716 --> 00:24:05,356
Speaker 2: you know, so.

515
00:24:06,316 --> 00:24:07,436
Speaker 3: Would you like I could just.

516
00:24:09,276 --> 00:24:10,716
Speaker 1: You told me I had to tell the story?

517
00:24:10,956 --> 00:24:11,476
Speaker 3: Yeah? Good.

518
00:24:12,276 --> 00:24:13,916
Speaker 2: So, so first I want to say that she she

519
00:24:13,956 --> 00:24:15,076
Speaker 2: texted me and she was like, I just want to

520
00:24:15,076 --> 00:24:16,676
Speaker 2: share the story with you. And I was in the

521
00:24:16,676 --> 00:24:18,796
Speaker 2: throes of writing this book and I texted her. I

522
00:24:18,836 --> 00:24:20,596
Speaker 2: was like, you know, she was hoping maybe to hear

523
00:24:20,676 --> 00:24:21,876
Speaker 2: back from me. At some point I was like her,

524
00:24:21,956 --> 00:24:23,796
Speaker 2: are you free in like one minute to talk on

525
00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:24,596
Speaker 2: the phone.

526
00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:26,076
Speaker 1: And I get on the phone with her, and.

527
00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:29,156
Speaker 2: I was like, so, instead of doing a one time

528
00:24:29,196 --> 00:24:31,716
Speaker 2: podcast episode, would you instead like to spend the next

529
00:24:31,716 --> 00:24:33,796
Speaker 2: three and a half years with me talking deeply about

530
00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:34,396
Speaker 2: your story.

531
00:24:34,516 --> 00:24:37,236
Speaker 1: I probably freaked her out, but she was like, okay, yeah,

532
00:24:37,276 --> 00:24:39,156
Speaker 1: I guess. And so she was. She was one of

533
00:24:39,156 --> 00:24:40,676
Speaker 1: those people that made this book the book.

534
00:24:40,716 --> 00:24:42,756
Speaker 2: It gave me the confidence that I did not, in

535
00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:44,116
Speaker 2: fact need to return my advance.

536
00:24:44,276 --> 00:24:47,396
Speaker 3: We've already told us something. Yeah, that the person who

537
00:24:47,396 --> 00:24:49,676
Speaker 3: you she's got this syndrome where she can only communicate

538
00:24:49,676 --> 00:24:53,356
Speaker 3: by blinking her eyes. Yeah, she's on the phone with you. Yeah, okay, So.

539
00:24:53,316 --> 00:24:55,436
Speaker 2: She was sending me a text on the phone, Michael,

540
00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:56,116
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just kidding.

541
00:24:56,156 --> 00:24:57,796
Speaker 1: I'm kidding. I just you didn't have to make that

542
00:24:57,916 --> 00:24:58,596
Speaker 1: so explicit.

543
00:24:58,636 --> 00:25:02,436
Speaker 3: Oh, one day I will improve to the point where

544
00:25:03,796 --> 00:25:08,076
Speaker 3: you're you're satisfied with my interviewers. But but, but but

545
00:25:08,396 --> 00:25:11,036
Speaker 3: let's talk about you interview Okay, I'm trying to figure out,

546
00:25:11,676 --> 00:25:13,236
Speaker 3: so this person gets a touch who wants to tell

547
00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:14,756
Speaker 3: her story? Yes?

548
00:25:14,796 --> 00:25:17,236
Speaker 2: And so I started interviewing her. And here's who Olivia

549
00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:22,396
Speaker 2: was before the stroke. She was a fairly happy, but

550
00:25:22,596 --> 00:25:26,876
Speaker 2: very insecure high school student slash college student. So that's

551
00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:33,036
Speaker 2: most people, right, and so she has this catastrophic brainstem stroke,

552
00:25:33,116 --> 00:25:36,236
Speaker 2: she ends up in the hospital. What's so fascinating. This

553
00:25:36,276 --> 00:25:38,236
Speaker 2: is what I mean by that twist, the angle that

554
00:25:38,316 --> 00:25:40,516
Speaker 2: I didn't see coming, because when I first saw her

555
00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:42,436
Speaker 2: message on Instagram, I thought, Okay, this is going to

556
00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:45,636
Speaker 2: be a story about adversity in the face of hardship

557
00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:50,156
Speaker 2: and the laborious you know, recovery and physical therapy and

558
00:25:50,396 --> 00:25:52,196
Speaker 2: beating the odds. You know, like that's what I thought

559
00:25:52,196 --> 00:25:53,556
Speaker 2: it was going to be. And then Olivia is like

560
00:25:54,876 --> 00:25:58,036
Speaker 2: the gravity of my situation did not sink in until

561
00:25:58,076 --> 00:26:01,436
Speaker 2: my boyfriend's family came to visit about twelve days later.

562
00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:05,636
Speaker 2: And I had never been able to gain these people's approval.

563
00:26:07,316 --> 00:26:09,676
Speaker 2: And when I realized, in the moment they came into

564
00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:12,356
Speaker 2: the hospital room that I could not curate an image

565
00:26:12,396 --> 00:26:14,916
Speaker 2: of myself, that I could not be the person that

566
00:26:14,956 --> 00:26:17,076
Speaker 2: I knew they needed me to be in order to

567
00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:21,356
Speaker 2: like me back, that is when I fully appreciated that

568
00:26:21,356 --> 00:26:24,876
Speaker 2: I was locked in, and I thought, how incredible.

569
00:26:24,876 --> 00:26:25,636
Speaker 1: For two reasons.

570
00:26:25,676 --> 00:26:29,116
Speaker 2: One, I think we naively believe that when we get us,

571
00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:31,916
Speaker 2: when we get such catastrophic news, like we're locked in

572
00:26:32,476 --> 00:26:35,076
Speaker 2: all of our old preferences and values and ways and

573
00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:37,996
Speaker 2: thinking about the world. Are immediately right size and we

574
00:26:37,996 --> 00:26:40,156
Speaker 2: don't care about that stuff anymore, and we are immediately

575
00:26:40,196 --> 00:26:42,356
Speaker 2: enlightened and we have perspective, and it's like, who cares

576
00:26:42,356 --> 00:26:45,196
Speaker 2: what other people think. I'm just concerned about being able

577
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:48,356
Speaker 2: to talk again, right, Obviously that's not true. So actually,

578
00:26:48,356 --> 00:26:50,636
Speaker 2: one of the people that I interviewed for the podcast, Scott,

579
00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:53,516
Speaker 2: who had cancer, he was like, on any given day,

580
00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:56,036
Speaker 2: I'm more worried about losing my six pack than I

581
00:26:56,116 --> 00:26:59,956
Speaker 2: am about dying. That's the reality of human psychology. We

582
00:27:00,036 --> 00:27:01,996
Speaker 2: still have We are still the same person we were

583
00:27:02,036 --> 00:27:04,556
Speaker 2: actually two minutes ago, with this new information that we're

584
00:27:04,556 --> 00:27:07,516
Speaker 2: actively processing. So I found that fascinating that she would

585
00:27:07,556 --> 00:27:12,116
Speaker 2: still care so much. But her chapter is actually about

586
00:27:12,396 --> 00:27:15,436
Speaker 2: what it means to reckon with the fact that you

587
00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:20,996
Speaker 2: can no longer you almost by brute force. You must

588
00:27:21,156 --> 00:27:25,476
Speaker 2: relinquish your people pleasing tendencies. Oh and I'm a people pleaser.

589
00:27:25,796 --> 00:27:27,596
Speaker 2: You wouldn't know that by the way I'm engaging with

590
00:27:27,636 --> 00:27:31,516
Speaker 2: Michael tonight. I've lost one friend, but I am a

591
00:27:31,516 --> 00:27:36,476
Speaker 2: people pleaser with most people, and I so loved that

592
00:27:36,516 --> 00:27:39,596
Speaker 2: there was this this theme, Like my goal with the

593
00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:43,716
Speaker 2: book was exceptional story, very relatable, universal lesson, and so

594
00:27:43,756 --> 00:27:46,236
Speaker 2: I just love that this magnificent story of Locked in

595
00:27:46,276 --> 00:27:49,796
Speaker 2: Syndrome was actually about a young woman's desire to be

596
00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:53,436
Speaker 2: liked and loved by people, and how she had to

597
00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:57,636
Speaker 2: become comfortable with the rawest, most vulnerable.

598
00:27:57,316 --> 00:27:58,076
Speaker 1: Version of herself.

599
00:27:58,956 --> 00:28:00,516
Speaker 3: About Ingrid, Yeah.

600
00:28:00,356 --> 00:28:04,196
Speaker 2: Ingrid is someone who, from the time she's very little,

601
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:08,876
Speaker 2: growing up in Columbia, is told that she should never

602
00:28:08,916 --> 00:28:12,556
Speaker 2: tell people about her family's indigenous background. So her mom

603
00:28:12,596 --> 00:28:14,356
Speaker 2: cautions her from a young age. She says, all these

604
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:18,796
Speaker 2: family stories about your grandpa's magical abilities and our spiritual traditions,

605
00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:20,916
Speaker 2: they're going to be harshly judged by others and you

606
00:28:20,996 --> 00:28:24,196
Speaker 2: might face violence or discrimination.

607
00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:26,876
Speaker 1: Don't talk about these with anyone.

608
00:28:26,676 --> 00:28:28,796
Speaker 3: Can you can I think your talk? Can you pause

609
00:28:28,836 --> 00:28:30,796
Speaker 3: just a liver there and tell them? Can you tell

610
00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:32,956
Speaker 3: them one of the kind of stories that she was

611
00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:34,556
Speaker 3: told as the great stories.

612
00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:38,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, that her grandfather could move clouds and help farmers

613
00:28:38,436 --> 00:28:41,476
Speaker 2: with their crops. It's a little Ingrid would hear these

614
00:28:41,476 --> 00:28:45,276
Speaker 2: stories with such delight, but she quickly learned like, oh wow, no,

615
00:28:45,516 --> 00:28:48,076
Speaker 2: these are shameful stories, right, I shouldn't talk about them

616
00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:48,996
Speaker 2: with anyone else.

617
00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:50,636
Speaker 1: And then when she so she.

618
00:28:50,636 --> 00:28:53,516
Speaker 2: Continues this when she moves to Chicago eventually and has

619
00:28:53,556 --> 00:28:56,916
Speaker 2: a bustling community around her, her friends notice she's very

620
00:28:56,956 --> 00:29:00,396
Speaker 2: guarded about her upbringing and her cultural heritage and just

621
00:29:00,436 --> 00:29:04,436
Speaker 2: her life in Columbia in general. And you know, her

622
00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:07,036
Speaker 2: boyfriend even would tell her like, Ingrid, you never open

623
00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:10,916
Speaker 2: up to me about your life life back in your homeland.

624
00:29:10,996 --> 00:29:11,356
Speaker 1: Why not?

625
00:29:11,556 --> 00:29:14,316
Speaker 2: And so he said being inscrutable was kind of her

626
00:29:14,356 --> 00:29:17,436
Speaker 2: defining quality. And then one day she gets into a

627
00:29:17,436 --> 00:29:22,716
Speaker 2: biking accident and she develops amnesia, retrograde amnesia. So what

628
00:29:22,756 --> 00:29:25,156
Speaker 2: that means is you lose a lot of memories from

629
00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:26,876
Speaker 2: the past, but you can still form new memories.

630
00:29:26,996 --> 00:29:29,436
Speaker 3: But she didn't develop it. She comes out of this

631
00:29:29,556 --> 00:29:31,156
Speaker 3: crash and she doesn't remember who she is.

632
00:29:31,316 --> 00:29:34,036
Speaker 1: Yes, so in a moment, it's like no.

633
00:29:34,036 --> 00:29:36,116
Speaker 3: Idea who she is correct and has to kind of

634
00:29:36,196 --> 00:29:40,636
Speaker 3: uncover who she like it becomes a detective guy. Yeah, yeah,

635
00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:44,556
Speaker 3: so she so she does nothing about herself. Yes, that's

636
00:29:44,596 --> 00:29:47,876
Speaker 3: just an amazing thing, waking up and knowing nothing about

637
00:29:47,876 --> 00:29:48,316
Speaker 3: who you are.

638
00:29:48,316 --> 00:29:50,796
Speaker 2: She gets it from the bike, and she knows, she

639
00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:52,716
Speaker 2: knows how to use the bike. So it's interesting because

640
00:29:52,716 --> 00:29:55,996
Speaker 2: with retrograde amnesia, all your skills are still intact. So

641
00:29:55,996 --> 00:29:57,956
Speaker 2: you can still read, and you can still write, and

642
00:29:57,996 --> 00:29:59,836
Speaker 2: you can still pick up a phone and call someone,

643
00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:02,196
Speaker 2: but you don't have an understanding of who you are.

644
00:30:02,476 --> 00:30:05,076
Speaker 2: And so she stares at her reflection at one point

645
00:30:05,116 --> 00:30:07,556
Speaker 2: and thinks she's observing someone else until she finally puts

646
00:30:07,556 --> 00:30:08,876
Speaker 2: it together and is like, oh my god, that's me.

647
00:30:09,796 --> 00:30:12,996
Speaker 2: And there's something very curious about the way that her

648
00:30:13,316 --> 00:30:14,476
Speaker 2: memories come back to her.

649
00:30:14,636 --> 00:30:15,556
Speaker 1: So sorry.

650
00:30:15,636 --> 00:30:17,996
Speaker 2: One thing that I should note is, unlike most people

651
00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:20,156
Speaker 2: who would be totally freaked out of their mind if

652
00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:25,196
Speaker 2: this were to happen, Ingrid experiences unbridled joy and euphoria.

653
00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:28,156
Speaker 3: She knows she doesn't know who she is, and.

654
00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,076
Speaker 1: She's thrilled about it, and she's to the point.

655
00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:31,356
Speaker 3: Where she doesn't even want to look in the mirror.

656
00:30:31,756 --> 00:30:35,796
Speaker 3: She doesn't want to remember anything. Yeah, that is especially weird,

657
00:30:36,156 --> 00:30:38,436
Speaker 3: because don't you think if you felt that way, you

658
00:30:38,476 --> 00:30:40,876
Speaker 3: would ask yourself, why do I feel this way? And

659
00:30:40,916 --> 00:30:43,436
Speaker 3: maybe like what I was whereas a serial killer.

660
00:30:43,276 --> 00:30:47,356
Speaker 2: Or something absolutely Ingrid and I could not have more

661
00:30:47,356 --> 00:30:49,876
Speaker 2: different cognitions. That was one of the other delights. I'm like,

662
00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:51,876
Speaker 2: I don't relate to this person at all.

663
00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:54,316
Speaker 3: Right, yes, yeah, You'd be scrambled to get back to

664
00:30:54,316 --> 00:30:55,036
Speaker 3: Maya's fast.

665
00:30:56,076 --> 00:30:58,436
Speaker 1: I'd be like, what is her Amazon ranking? What is

666
00:30:58,476 --> 00:30:58,916
Speaker 1: this person?

667
00:30:58,916 --> 00:31:00,316
Speaker 2: I don't know if she's written a book, but I

668
00:31:00,396 --> 00:31:04,116
Speaker 2: need to know her Amazon ranking. And so Ingrid has

669
00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 2: this euphoria, and she describes it as a feeling of lightness.

670
00:31:07,076 --> 00:31:09,556
Speaker 2: She feels unburded in some way, but she can't understand

671
00:31:09,676 --> 00:31:12,196
Speaker 2: quite why. And as Michael said, is she's going through

672
00:31:12,756 --> 00:31:15,716
Speaker 2: these next few weeks trying to hold her recovery. She

673
00:31:16,316 --> 00:31:18,756
Speaker 2: covers up every mirror in her house with blankets because

674
00:31:18,756 --> 00:31:20,396
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to be reminded. She doesn't read any

675
00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:22,356
Speaker 2: of the journals on her bookshelf. She wants to preserve

676
00:31:22,436 --> 00:31:25,476
Speaker 2: this feeling of lightness. And what happens is as her

677
00:31:25,476 --> 00:31:29,276
Speaker 2: memories slowly come back, they come back a little bit

678
00:31:29,676 --> 00:31:31,956
Speaker 2: out of order, and in a way that actually changes

679
00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:36,596
Speaker 2: her relationship with her family's history. So the first set

680
00:31:36,596 --> 00:31:39,516
Speaker 2: of things that come back are her family's stories. It

681
00:31:39,596 --> 00:31:41,276
Speaker 2: just comes back to her in a rush. Oh my god,

682
00:31:41,316 --> 00:31:44,116
Speaker 2: my grandpa could move clouds. My mom would bless water.

683
00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:46,956
Speaker 2: Both of them were corndera. I can't roll my arms.

684
00:31:46,956 --> 00:31:50,956
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna try. They were spiritual healers. And she

685
00:31:51,236 --> 00:31:54,556
Speaker 2: is so enchanted by these stories. She thinks her so beautiful,

686
00:31:55,116 --> 00:31:58,276
Speaker 2: and she starts sharing them liberally with everyone. Tells her

687
00:31:58,316 --> 00:32:00,076
Speaker 2: boyfriend that night, oh my god, if I told you,

688
00:32:00,316 --> 00:32:02,876
Speaker 2: I have this incredible pass, tells her friends at dinner parties.

689
00:32:03,036 --> 00:32:06,596
Speaker 2: So she just she's like a ball of energy for

690
00:32:06,636 --> 00:32:09,476
Speaker 2: two weeks, just delighted to tell everyone she can meet

691
00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:10,116
Speaker 2: about these stories.

692
00:32:10,196 --> 00:32:13,836
Speaker 3: It has no idea. What she's doing is transgressingly exactly nothing.

693
00:32:13,716 --> 00:32:16,596
Speaker 2: Until one night she has to flash in her mind

694
00:32:16,636 --> 00:32:20,116
Speaker 2: of her mom staring at her sternly, and she rushes

695
00:32:20,116 --> 00:32:23,516
Speaker 2: to the bathroom, and that's when she remembers, oh my god,

696
00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:27,076
Speaker 2: I'm ashamed of these stories. These are a source of

697
00:32:27,156 --> 00:32:29,636
Speaker 2: shame for me. I'm not supposed to even talk about them.

698
00:32:29,996 --> 00:32:33,796
Speaker 2: But it's too late. She has already arrived at a

699
00:32:33,836 --> 00:32:39,516
Speaker 2: renewed relationship with her beautiful family, heritage. And the reason

700
00:32:39,556 --> 00:32:42,036
Speaker 2: I love this story, why I call the chapter the

701
00:32:42,076 --> 00:32:44,756
Speaker 2: blank Slate, is that it is a reminder to all

702
00:32:44,796 --> 00:32:47,236
Speaker 2: of us that we should not hold our beliefs as

703
00:32:47,276 --> 00:32:51,276
Speaker 2: these sacred, immutable truths that are not worthy of revision

704
00:32:51,916 --> 00:32:56,156
Speaker 2: and change, can serve as a beautiful moment of revelation

705
00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:58,036
Speaker 2: where it reveals to us, oh my gosh, I've been

706
00:32:58,116 --> 00:32:59,076
Speaker 2: laboring under this view.

707
00:32:59,116 --> 00:33:00,796
Speaker 1: It might be problematic? Is it outdated?

708
00:33:01,036 --> 00:33:01,516
Speaker 3: For Ingrid?

709
00:33:01,596 --> 00:33:05,756
Speaker 2: She realized she overinterpreted her mom's message, so her mom

710
00:33:06,316 --> 00:33:08,396
Speaker 2: only cautioned her to not share this because she was

711
00:33:08,396 --> 00:33:11,236
Speaker 2: worried about ingrid safety. She was deep her mom was

712
00:33:11,276 --> 00:33:14,836
Speaker 2: deeply proud of these stories. But we so often have

713
00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:17,596
Speaker 2: this happen. Right, ninety percent of our beliefs. I just

714
00:33:17,596 --> 00:33:20,996
Speaker 2: made that number up, But let's just assume I'm just

715
00:33:21,076 --> 00:33:25,316
Speaker 2: your classic social scientists. No, I'm just kidding, and ninety

716
00:33:25,356 --> 00:33:26,836
Speaker 2: percent of you believe me just now.

717
00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:27,236
Speaker 3: Now, I'm just.

718
00:33:27,236 --> 00:33:27,956
Speaker 1: Kidding, just kidding.

719
00:33:29,876 --> 00:33:32,596
Speaker 2: Many of our beliefs, I don't know what the numbers are,

720
00:33:34,876 --> 00:33:39,836
Speaker 2: are actually sitting on very flimsy ground. We learned those

721
00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:43,356
Speaker 2: ways of thinking and seeing the world based on subconscious

722
00:33:43,396 --> 00:33:46,396
Speaker 2: messaging when we were kids, from parents, from teachers, from

723
00:33:46,476 --> 00:33:49,796
Speaker 2: popular culture, from TV shows we watched, from culture and

724
00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:53,116
Speaker 2: our upbring, whatever it was. And yet it's not like

725
00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:55,756
Speaker 2: every day we wake up thinking what belief should I

726
00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:57,676
Speaker 2: interrogate for its credibility today?

727
00:33:57,836 --> 00:33:57,996
Speaker 3: Right?

728
00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:00,716
Speaker 2: And so what change can do like it did for Ingrid,

729
00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:03,756
Speaker 2: is wipe the slate clean and give you a chance

730
00:34:03,836 --> 00:34:08,276
Speaker 2: to ask yourself, is this a belief that I should carry?

731
00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:12,276
Speaker 3: And do we need trauma for that? No?

732
00:34:12,476 --> 00:34:14,836
Speaker 2: So one of the things, so I don't want anyone

733
00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:16,596
Speaker 2: to have to go through a change to benefit from

734
00:34:16,596 --> 00:34:18,876
Speaker 2: this book. So the thing that I was very intent

735
00:34:18,956 --> 00:34:23,276
Speaker 2: on is this book is for anyone who is not

736
00:34:23,356 --> 00:34:25,156
Speaker 2: just in the throes of change, but someone who's looking

737
00:34:25,156 --> 00:34:28,076
Speaker 2: to change the relationship with a past experience that they

738
00:34:28,076 --> 00:34:31,676
Speaker 2: have a very troubled relationship with, or someone who simply

739
00:34:31,676 --> 00:34:34,036
Speaker 2: wants to get ahead of a big change that's forthcoming

740
00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:36,636
Speaker 2: and it's going to come for all of us spoiler alert.

741
00:34:36,756 --> 00:34:39,076
Speaker 2: Like I was telling you, you know, behind the scenes,

742
00:34:39,116 --> 00:34:41,756
Speaker 2: like the last month of my life was horrible and

743
00:34:41,836 --> 00:34:43,756
Speaker 2: I dealt with lots of unexpected change, and I was like,

744
00:34:43,836 --> 00:34:45,436
Speaker 2: damn it. I wrote the book. I thought it was done.

745
00:34:45,436 --> 00:34:47,756
Speaker 2: I thought I'd wipe my hands clean of change. Now

746
00:34:47,756 --> 00:34:50,596
Speaker 2: I'm going through and it's awful, but I wanted it.

747
00:34:50,636 --> 00:34:53,316
Speaker 2: I wanted to give people strategies to almost build armor

748
00:34:53,356 --> 00:34:56,956
Speaker 2: around themselves so that when they get thrown that next change,

749
00:34:57,076 --> 00:34:58,916
Speaker 2: they think, Okay, I've got a little bit of a

750
00:34:58,956 --> 00:35:01,236
Speaker 2: survival kid. Here, I know what to do about it.

751
00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:03,956
Speaker 3: Was your social science background at all useful to you

752
00:35:04,156 --> 00:35:07,756
Speaker 3: in doing the book? I know why, how? And why?

753
00:35:08,036 --> 00:35:10,556
Speaker 3: Because these are stories and you can sort of draw

754
00:35:10,676 --> 00:35:15,236
Speaker 3: conclusions from the stories, but explain how social science background

755
00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:17,116
Speaker 3: sort of finds its way into them.

756
00:35:17,356 --> 00:35:19,956
Speaker 2: So I think first of all, giving names to concepts

757
00:35:19,956 --> 00:35:22,236
Speaker 2: is very helpful for readers, right they want to know

758
00:35:22,316 --> 00:35:26,196
Speaker 2: that there's a thing like identity foreclosure or epic label

759
00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:28,956
Speaker 2: or whatever the concept is. But also because when it

760
00:35:28,956 --> 00:35:32,676
Speaker 2: came to prescribing recommendations, that's where the social science is

761
00:35:32,756 --> 00:35:35,996
Speaker 2: very helpful. So we can identify from Ingrid's story that

762
00:35:36,036 --> 00:35:38,356
Speaker 2: she had these faulty beliefs that were problematic in X

763
00:35:38,436 --> 00:35:41,036
Speaker 2: or y ways. But how do each of us tap

764
00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:44,516
Speaker 2: into our own mental flexibility and challenge our own self beliefs.

765
00:35:44,756 --> 00:35:48,756
Speaker 2: This is where all the research on changing minds and

766
00:35:49,036 --> 00:35:51,556
Speaker 2: canvassing and whatnot is very very helpful, and where I

767
00:35:51,596 --> 00:35:54,316
Speaker 2: was able to say, Okay, here are eight or nine

768
00:35:54,396 --> 00:35:58,836
Speaker 2: strategies you can use to test your own convictions to

769
00:35:58,916 --> 00:36:00,916
Speaker 2: pressure test them and make sure that they would hold

770
00:36:00,956 --> 00:36:01,596
Speaker 2: up to scrutiny.

771
00:36:01,716 --> 00:36:03,396
Speaker 3: So we only got a couple mins for let them

772
00:36:03,436 --> 00:36:05,436
Speaker 3: start asking you questions. There are a couple of we'll

773
00:36:05,476 --> 00:36:07,036
Speaker 3: skip doing because I wanted to ask you a couple

774
00:36:07,036 --> 00:36:11,036
Speaker 3: of other things. Did anybody you approached try to write

775
00:36:11,076 --> 00:36:12,316
Speaker 3: about not want to be written about?

776
00:36:12,996 --> 00:36:13,116
Speaker 1: Oh?

777
00:36:13,156 --> 00:36:15,956
Speaker 3: Of course, so you got turned down? Yeah, who turns

778
00:36:15,956 --> 00:36:16,276
Speaker 3: it down?

779
00:36:16,636 --> 00:36:17,596
Speaker 1: Let me tell you one example.

780
00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:18,876
Speaker 2: So there was a woman why I want to protect

781
00:36:18,916 --> 00:36:21,076
Speaker 2: her privacy because she didn't want to be written about.

782
00:36:21,796 --> 00:36:25,236
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, saw disguiser I wrote about. I was

783
00:36:25,236 --> 00:36:29,436
Speaker 2: interviewing a woman whose story I found absolutely fascinating. And

784
00:36:30,396 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 2: at the end, she said, at the end of our interviews,

785
00:36:33,836 --> 00:36:36,316
Speaker 2: which only lasted a couple of weeks, she said, I

786
00:36:36,356 --> 00:36:38,596
Speaker 2: feel like I'm kind of writing my own eulogy when

787
00:36:38,636 --> 00:36:40,716
Speaker 2: we have these interviews. And I was like, WHOA, that's

788
00:36:40,756 --> 00:36:42,876
Speaker 2: really intense. I don't want you to feel like that.

789
00:36:43,316 --> 00:36:45,636
Speaker 2: And it's because they were facing an illness that would

790
00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:48,476
Speaker 2: be terminal and it was very very hard for her

791
00:36:48,636 --> 00:36:53,636
Speaker 2: to and also I think for her to surrender that

792
00:36:53,716 --> 00:36:56,716
Speaker 2: kind of power over to me if she was going

793
00:36:56,756 --> 00:36:59,756
Speaker 2: to talk about her odds or likelihood of surviving or not.

794
00:36:59,916 --> 00:37:01,876
Speaker 2: She wanted to be the author of that narrative, and

795
00:37:01,916 --> 00:37:05,156
Speaker 2: I totally understood, and I was like, yes, that should

796
00:37:05,196 --> 00:37:07,476
Speaker 2: be Yeah, that's her material.

797
00:37:08,236 --> 00:37:10,956
Speaker 3: How the subject of the book responded to this so

798
00:37:12,036 --> 00:37:13,796
Speaker 3: really really well, nobody's angry.

799
00:37:13,916 --> 00:37:16,556
Speaker 1: Nobody's angry. I know that. So unlike you I mentioned,

800
00:37:16,556 --> 00:37:17,476
Speaker 1: I was a people pleaser.

801
00:37:17,516 --> 00:37:21,796
Speaker 2: So Michael has Michael has pissed off so many subjects.

802
00:37:21,836 --> 00:37:22,476
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

803
00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:26,436
Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's right. There's a rule they get. Did

804
00:37:26,476 --> 00:37:27,556
Speaker 3: they get to read the book when you get to

805
00:37:27,556 --> 00:37:28,076
Speaker 3: read the book?

806
00:37:28,116 --> 00:37:28,276
Speaker 1: Yeah?

807
00:37:28,276 --> 00:37:31,156
Speaker 2: First of all, so you have the thickest skin. I mean,

808
00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:33,076
Speaker 2: not collagen wise. I'm just saying you have the thickest

809
00:37:33,116 --> 00:37:37,076
Speaker 2: skin of anyone that I know, because you just let

810
00:37:37,116 --> 00:37:39,476
Speaker 2: criticism like, I don't even know if it hits your skin.

811
00:37:39,516 --> 00:37:42,676
Speaker 2: It's like you have a chemical repellent that doesn't even

812
00:37:42,716 --> 00:37:46,156
Speaker 2: let it touch you. And he's like, Daniel Connoman, h yeah,

813
00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:48,036
Speaker 2: he was really pissed off about the way that I

814
00:37:48,036 --> 00:37:50,676
Speaker 2: wrote about the whatever project. I'm like, Nobel Prize winner

815
00:37:50,756 --> 00:37:52,756
Speaker 2: Daniel Connoman. He's like, yeah, he'll get over it.

816
00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:52,956
Speaker 4: You know.

817
00:37:52,956 --> 00:37:55,876
Speaker 1: It's just like you're so chill about everything. How are

818
00:37:55,916 --> 00:37:56,636
Speaker 1: you so chill?

819
00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:01,076
Speaker 3: Well, it's it's so in the case of Danny is different,

820
00:38:01,116 --> 00:38:04,516
Speaker 3: a little different. Danny was the most terrifying subject I

821
00:38:04,556 --> 00:38:07,196
Speaker 3: ever had, because his mind could just run circles around

822
00:38:07,196 --> 00:38:09,636
Speaker 3: my mind. Yeah, mostly my subjects sort of see plus

823
00:38:09,636 --> 00:38:13,356
Speaker 3: students and you know, they're athletes and Wall Street traders

824
00:38:13,436 --> 00:38:17,276
Speaker 3: and they're not that smart and uh, and so that

825
00:38:17,476 --> 00:38:19,956
Speaker 3: I'm not that worried about what they might say that

826
00:38:20,036 --> 00:38:22,156
Speaker 3: or they might or that they might think something that

827
00:38:22,196 --> 00:38:25,356
Speaker 3: my brain hasn't already thought. Yeah, but Danny, you just

828
00:38:25,396 --> 00:38:27,436
Speaker 3: know he's going to think of eighteen different things. But

829
00:38:27,476 --> 00:38:30,076
Speaker 3: his he had a very specific problem, and it was

830
00:38:30,116 --> 00:38:32,956
Speaker 3: that he didn't he looked he was about this love

831
00:38:32,996 --> 00:38:38,196
Speaker 3: affair with Amos Tversky, basically this platonic love affair, this collaboration.

832
00:38:38,676 --> 00:38:40,676
Speaker 3: He didn't like the way he was positioned in a

833
00:38:40,676 --> 00:38:43,436
Speaker 3: way we're in relation to Amos, which was the way

834
00:38:43,596 --> 00:38:46,676
Speaker 3: everybody saw him. He didn't see himself. Okay, so that

835
00:38:47,036 --> 00:38:48,956
Speaker 3: and he just said, you didn't do any favors there.

836
00:38:49,396 --> 00:38:50,996
Speaker 3: But he wasn't that angry. I mean, we would go

837
00:38:51,036 --> 00:38:53,036
Speaker 3: out and whenever we were here to together, we'd go

838
00:38:53,076 --> 00:38:55,276
Speaker 3: out to shape andice, and you'd say you could make

839
00:38:55,316 --> 00:38:57,356
Speaker 3: it up to me by buying me the tart for deserse.

840
00:38:57,556 --> 00:39:00,476
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was not you know, I really really

841
00:39:00,516 --> 00:39:02,076
Speaker 2: deeply hate upsetting people.

842
00:39:02,196 --> 00:39:09,636
Speaker 3: Okay, well I don't, and so I trying to upset them. No,

843
00:39:10,396 --> 00:39:13,356
Speaker 3: that's not the point, not to upset them. I understand

844
00:39:13,676 --> 00:39:16,436
Speaker 3: deliver what I think is true. Yah the page. Absolutely.

845
00:39:17,276 --> 00:39:19,676
Speaker 2: So my policy for the book was I would not

846
00:39:19,756 --> 00:39:22,996
Speaker 2: allow any editorial input on anything that I've written. I

847
00:39:23,076 --> 00:39:24,676
Speaker 2: did allow for a fact check, but I did not

848
00:39:24,756 --> 00:39:26,196
Speaker 2: let anyone interfere with the writing.

849
00:39:26,236 --> 00:39:28,756
Speaker 3: And nobody came back and said, you got me slightly wrong.

850
00:39:28,876 --> 00:39:31,276
Speaker 1: I think No, I don't know if everyone has read

851
00:39:31,316 --> 00:39:31,756
Speaker 1: their chapter.

852
00:39:31,956 --> 00:39:35,636
Speaker 2: All right, Okay, Dwayne read his chapter and said it

853
00:39:35,676 --> 00:39:37,156
Speaker 2: was really healing for him.

854
00:39:37,796 --> 00:39:39,996
Speaker 3: So, I mean, by the way she said, who Ingrid is?

855
00:39:40,156 --> 00:39:42,796
Speaker 3: I mean a sudden these people are not Once in.

856
00:39:42,716 --> 00:39:45,356
Speaker 2: San Francisco, she wrote, Man, he could do clouds. Yeah,

857
00:39:45,356 --> 00:39:46,876
Speaker 2: she's a Pulitzer Prize finalist.

858
00:39:47,076 --> 00:39:50,036
Speaker 3: Yeah, this all turned into this turned actually this is

859
00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:53,356
Speaker 3: a story of gain. That's the one story of gain. Yes,

860
00:39:53,996 --> 00:39:55,876
Speaker 3: so last thing, I'm just cart curious.

861
00:39:55,916 --> 00:39:58,436
Speaker 2: Well, in Ingrid, for example, she she did say she

862
00:39:58,556 --> 00:40:00,876
Speaker 2: loves that her story was interpreted through a very fresh

863
00:40:00,916 --> 00:40:03,596
Speaker 2: lens because it was one she had not had not

864
00:40:03,676 --> 00:40:05,836
Speaker 2: explored in the book that she wrote, so it was

865
00:40:05,876 --> 00:40:06,636
Speaker 2: really fun for her.

866
00:40:07,076 --> 00:40:09,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, she left a lot of material on the floor.

867
00:40:09,436 --> 00:40:11,076
Speaker 3: I mean, I just couldn't believe that was amazing. It

868
00:40:11,116 --> 00:40:12,436
Speaker 3: was a bit when I saw it. I know who

869
00:40:12,516 --> 00:40:14,196
Speaker 3: she was. I thought, why didn't she write this?

870
00:40:14,396 --> 00:40:16,396
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally don't tell her that.

871
00:40:17,996 --> 00:40:20,276
Speaker 3: So did you enjoy doing this?

872
00:40:20,916 --> 00:40:22,036
Speaker 1: I actually loved it.

873
00:40:22,076 --> 00:40:23,876
Speaker 3: Did you like it more than the podcast?

874
00:40:24,076 --> 00:40:27,196
Speaker 2: It was very different. Writing is solitary.

875
00:40:27,316 --> 00:40:27,556
Speaker 1: Though.

876
00:40:27,556 --> 00:40:31,116
Speaker 2: My husband Jimmy spent so much time helping me on

877
00:40:31,116 --> 00:40:34,756
Speaker 2: this book, and I was so grateful for his partnership.

878
00:40:34,796 --> 00:40:36,356
Speaker 2: We just kind of like coop them in the living

879
00:40:36,436 --> 00:40:40,156
Speaker 2: room and just like go go at it. I it's

880
00:40:40,156 --> 00:40:42,476
Speaker 2: a yeah, it's a very different experience. What I loved

881
00:40:42,556 --> 00:40:45,036
Speaker 2: about writing the book, which by the way, I'm I'm

882
00:40:45,076 --> 00:40:47,556
Speaker 2: saying I love it, but it was also absolutely the

883
00:40:47,596 --> 00:40:50,516
Speaker 2: hardest intellectual thing I've ever done. It's also the thing

884
00:40:50,516 --> 00:40:54,196
Speaker 2: I'm proudest of, which is wonderful because as the daughter

885
00:40:54,236 --> 00:40:57,076
Speaker 2: of two Indian immigrants, pride is not something I feel often.

886
00:40:58,236 --> 00:41:01,076
Speaker 2: Given the criticism received in my upbringing.

887
00:41:01,676 --> 00:41:04,196
Speaker 3: Was that knowing laughter from the front row. I think

888
00:41:04,236 --> 00:41:06,836
Speaker 3: it was knowing laughter from the front row. Let's kick

889
00:41:06,876 --> 00:41:07,516
Speaker 3: it to the audience.

890
00:41:07,516 --> 00:41:10,076
Speaker 2: Oh, by the way, had to go like ten minutes.

891
00:41:10,116 --> 00:41:11,956
Speaker 2: Are people open to going? Like ten minutes over? So

892
00:41:12,076 --> 00:41:13,116
Speaker 2: don't you just finish this?

893
00:41:13,396 --> 00:41:14,996
Speaker 3: Okay? We run light?

894
00:41:15,236 --> 00:41:16,156
Speaker 1: Are you running late? Okay?

895
00:41:17,156 --> 00:41:19,636
Speaker 2: Go ahead, finish with Oh sorry, I was going to say.

896
00:41:19,676 --> 00:41:21,836
Speaker 2: With the book, what was so nice is you have

897
00:41:21,956 --> 00:41:25,196
Speaker 2: the luxury of time and space to breathe because you're

898
00:41:25,196 --> 00:41:28,156
Speaker 2: doing dozens of hours of interviews with people over many,

899
00:41:28,196 --> 00:41:31,196
Speaker 2: many years, and so I could explore kind of every

900
00:41:31,236 --> 00:41:33,556
Speaker 2: nook and cranny, and there were stakes were low, and

901
00:41:33,596 --> 00:41:35,476
Speaker 2: it didn't go anywhere, It didn't go anywhere. But with

902
00:41:35,556 --> 00:41:37,356
Speaker 2: incrid it was like there were moments in this book

903
00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:39,996
Speaker 2: turning points where if I hadn't gone down that little

904
00:41:40,276 --> 00:41:43,316
Speaker 2: small alley, like I would never have discovered this incredible thing.

905
00:41:43,476 --> 00:41:45,236
Speaker 3: So that was really fine. You never would have found

906
00:41:45,236 --> 00:41:46,396
Speaker 3: it in a podcast ever.

907
00:41:46,396 --> 00:41:49,156
Speaker 1: Never, So that was the part that was most joyful

908
00:41:49,196 --> 00:41:49,396
Speaker 1: for me.

909
00:41:49,636 --> 00:41:53,236
Speaker 3: Right, you're able to make connections that you wouldn't otherwise, Yes, right, yes,

910
00:41:53,276 --> 00:41:55,796
Speaker 3: all right, So let's open it up. Is there a

911
00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:57,476
Speaker 3: mic or people just gonna stay on in the shower.

912
00:41:57,476 --> 00:41:57,916
Speaker 3: There we go.

913
00:41:59,156 --> 00:42:03,516
Speaker 5: Hi, I'm Sonny. I'm a huge fan of your podcast.

914
00:42:03,836 --> 00:42:06,116
Speaker 5: The question for both are witch podcast. Do you say

915
00:42:06,276 --> 00:42:11,036
Speaker 5: a Michael Lewis has written so much.

916
00:42:11,076 --> 00:42:12,676
Speaker 3: I'm just I have a.

917
00:42:16,916 --> 00:42:18,996
Speaker 5: The question for both of you. You can decide who

918
00:42:19,156 --> 00:42:22,676
Speaker 5: when to answer first or better answer. So I have

919
00:42:22,716 --> 00:42:27,756
Speaker 5: a college going daughter, she's doing cognitive science, and I'm

920
00:42:27,756 --> 00:42:31,036
Speaker 5: just curious. It's our kids are going to go through

921
00:42:31,036 --> 00:42:32,836
Speaker 5: the massive change, and they are going through the massive

922
00:42:32,916 --> 00:42:35,036
Speaker 5: change right now as we speak, in the AI era.

923
00:42:35,556 --> 00:42:37,516
Speaker 5: And what does so much of what you're talking about

924
00:42:37,676 --> 00:42:41,516
Speaker 5: I think is just happening to us without even the

925
00:42:41,556 --> 00:42:44,356
Speaker 5: face of big change. The change is happening so slowly,

926
00:42:44,396 --> 00:42:47,716
Speaker 5: but it's happening a lot. What is your advice for

927
00:42:47,876 --> 00:42:51,636
Speaker 5: parents and kids and the students, what how can they

928
00:42:51,716 --> 00:42:55,716
Speaker 5: build that muscle in a way that it's progressive and

929
00:42:55,756 --> 00:42:59,996
Speaker 5: they're growing and you know, taking us to the next place.

930
00:43:00,716 --> 00:43:01,636
Speaker 1: Michael, you should answer.

931
00:43:06,156 --> 00:43:07,356
Speaker 3: Change person.

932
00:43:09,196 --> 00:43:11,276
Speaker 1: Never tried about Sam. Thanks, you're intell.

933
00:43:12,156 --> 00:43:15,356
Speaker 3: No, it is I mean, this is different. This is

934
00:43:15,396 --> 00:43:17,996
Speaker 3: an interesting for this this this is a distinction here

935
00:43:18,036 --> 00:43:22,516
Speaker 3: between external change like technical rapid technological change that changes

936
00:43:22,516 --> 00:43:23,356
Speaker 3: the environment, all right.

937
00:43:23,316 --> 00:43:25,076
Speaker 1: Find just to get used to stop, I'll just answer it.

938
00:43:25,116 --> 00:43:25,916
Speaker 3: Okay, go ahead.

939
00:43:26,276 --> 00:43:27,676
Speaker 2: So I'll start by saying I don't know the answer

940
00:43:27,756 --> 00:43:32,236
Speaker 2: to the question. And one thing that I have tended

941
00:43:32,276 --> 00:43:34,596
Speaker 2: to do over the course of my life is to overplan.

942
00:43:35,156 --> 00:43:37,236
Speaker 2: I've been making five and ten year plans from the

943
00:43:37,276 --> 00:43:39,796
Speaker 2: time I was five years old. Okay, super fun hang

944
00:43:40,836 --> 00:43:45,756
Speaker 2: really really cool kid. And for that reason or sorry,

945
00:43:45,756 --> 00:43:50,556
Speaker 2: for that reason, I have really I've really struggled with

946
00:43:50,796 --> 00:43:53,676
Speaker 2: change because I would over prescribe the future. And we

947
00:43:53,756 --> 00:43:58,996
Speaker 2: know from decades of research, legitimate social science research, that

948
00:43:59,316 --> 00:44:03,156
Speaker 2: we are really bad affective forecasters. We're very bad at

949
00:44:03,156 --> 00:44:06,076
Speaker 2: predicting how we will feel and think about the big

950
00:44:06,156 --> 00:44:10,996
Speaker 2: changes that happen in our lives. And one lesson that

951
00:44:11,036 --> 00:44:12,996
Speaker 2: I learned from writing The Other Side of Change was

952
00:44:13,036 --> 00:44:15,236
Speaker 2: that we often forget at the outset of a big

953
00:44:15,316 --> 00:44:19,036
Speaker 2: change that it's not just the world around us that's

954
00:44:19,036 --> 00:44:21,916
Speaker 2: going to change. We are going to be changing. We

955
00:44:21,956 --> 00:44:24,716
Speaker 2: are not static entities. We fall prey to what psychologists

956
00:44:24,716 --> 00:44:27,556
Speaker 2: call the end of history illusion. We think we're done changing,

957
00:44:27,676 --> 00:44:30,276
Speaker 2: so we fully acknowledge we've changed in the past. But

958
00:44:30,316 --> 00:44:32,276
Speaker 2: if you were to ask me how much I expect

959
00:44:32,316 --> 00:44:34,716
Speaker 2: to change in the future, I'll be like, nope, wait,

960
00:44:34,796 --> 00:44:39,356
Speaker 2: see what you get finished product. And so actually, Dan

961
00:44:39,356 --> 00:44:44,156
Speaker 2: Gilberts colleagues they call this illusion a watershed moment, in

962
00:44:44,196 --> 00:44:47,716
Speaker 2: which we falsely believe we've become the person will be forever.

963
00:44:48,516 --> 00:44:49,036
Speaker 1: And so.

964
00:44:50,436 --> 00:44:52,596
Speaker 2: What's really important about this is that when big changes

965
00:44:52,636 --> 00:44:57,596
Speaker 2: happen to us, they also lead to lasting change within us.

966
00:44:57,676 --> 00:45:02,116
Speaker 2: We develop new perspectives and abilities and vantage points. And

967
00:45:02,276 --> 00:45:08,476
Speaker 2: that's the same thing as perspectives and values and beliefs

968
00:45:08,476 --> 00:45:10,196
Speaker 2: and ideas about the world and ways are just seeing

969
00:45:10,276 --> 00:45:14,676
Speaker 2: us and and everything. And I say that because I

970
00:45:14,756 --> 00:45:19,716
Speaker 2: think having humility about all of it, not trying to

971
00:45:19,756 --> 00:45:22,236
Speaker 2: get ahead of how your kid when your kid's anxious

972
00:45:22,236 --> 00:45:23,916
Speaker 2: about it or you're anxious about it, you don't want

973
00:45:23,916 --> 00:45:26,196
Speaker 2: to get too far ahead because you truly don't know

974
00:45:26,796 --> 00:45:28,756
Speaker 2: how you First of all, you don't know how you respond,

975
00:45:28,756 --> 00:45:30,276
Speaker 2: because we just know that we're bad at that prediction.

976
00:45:30,556 --> 00:45:32,036
Speaker 2: And then we definitely don't know how we're going to

977
00:45:32,076 --> 00:45:34,196
Speaker 2: respond because we will be different people at that moment

978
00:45:34,236 --> 00:45:36,356
Speaker 2: in time in ways that are really hard to predict.

979
00:45:36,836 --> 00:45:40,156
Speaker 2: And so I think something that can calm the nervous

980
00:45:40,196 --> 00:45:45,276
Speaker 2: system is to try not to excessively anticipate just how

981
00:45:45,316 --> 00:45:47,916
Speaker 2: catastrophic it will feel or just how you know what

982
00:45:48,076 --> 00:45:50,716
Speaker 2: psychologically whatever it will feel, because at the end of

983
00:45:50,716 --> 00:45:53,476
Speaker 2: the day, and like my brother Aga always says this

984
00:45:53,516 --> 00:45:56,276
Speaker 2: to me, is like, you know, humans are just incredibly

985
00:45:56,316 --> 00:45:57,996
Speaker 2: psychologically resilient and adaptive.

986
00:45:57,996 --> 00:45:58,876
Speaker 1: It's just true.

987
00:45:59,076 --> 00:46:01,356
Speaker 2: Everyone will figure it out to some degree, right, They're

988
00:46:01,396 --> 00:46:04,516
Speaker 2: just going to have to. Yeah, those are my thought.

989
00:46:04,556 --> 00:46:06,676
Speaker 2: Any other then, Michael us.

990
00:46:07,196 --> 00:46:09,676
Speaker 3: They're a weird little piece of advice. Just tin little thing.

991
00:46:10,036 --> 00:46:12,236
Speaker 3: It's a title little thing. It isn't a lecture, it's

992
00:46:12,276 --> 00:46:15,396
Speaker 3: a it's a no, that's a that's a speech. You

993
00:46:15,556 --> 00:46:17,236
Speaker 3: a speech. You have a speech in you on this subject.

994
00:46:17,276 --> 00:46:20,196
Speaker 3: I don't this is not my subject. But but but

995
00:46:20,396 --> 00:46:25,636
Speaker 3: have your son enroll in an improv comedy class. Build

996
00:46:26,196 --> 00:46:30,036
Speaker 3: build that muscle, like that muscle and understand what that

997
00:46:30,116 --> 00:46:30,876
Speaker 3: muscle feels.

998
00:46:30,876 --> 00:46:31,436
Speaker 1: Talking to an.

999
00:46:31,396 --> 00:46:33,796
Speaker 2: Indian person, they're gonna enroll their kid that they're they're

1000
00:46:33,836 --> 00:46:34,996
Speaker 2: in Kuman now.

1001
00:46:35,076 --> 00:46:39,596
Speaker 3: If they think if they think it's gonna absolutely so.

1002
00:46:39,676 --> 00:46:42,596
Speaker 3: But it's it's uh that there's a in fact, if

1003
00:46:42,636 --> 00:46:45,036
Speaker 3: you want to give him a great present. Second second,

1004
00:46:45,236 --> 00:46:49,996
Speaker 3: second city daughter sorry's second city in Chicago? Has it?

1005
00:46:51,076 --> 00:46:53,596
Speaker 3: You read the book? Well, they also you can send

1006
00:46:53,756 --> 00:46:57,036
Speaker 3: your your daughter there for four days and and just

1007
00:46:57,156 --> 00:47:00,716
Speaker 3: drop her in an immersion class. And I did it. Uh,

1008
00:47:00,836 --> 00:47:03,956
Speaker 3: I brought a child with me to do it, and

1009
00:47:04,556 --> 00:47:08,036
Speaker 3: it was an amazing experience. And you'll never forget She'll

1010
00:47:08,036 --> 00:47:10,156
Speaker 3: never forget it, and she'll really I feel that muscle.

1011
00:47:10,556 --> 00:47:12,876
Speaker 3: Once you realize what that muscle is, you can apply

1012
00:47:12,876 --> 00:47:13,796
Speaker 3: it to lots of other things.

1013
00:47:13,796 --> 00:47:17,756
Speaker 1: That's a great that's a great answer. Genuinely, mm hmm. Genuinely,

1014
00:47:17,796 --> 00:47:18,596
Speaker 1: there's a great answer.

1015
00:47:19,796 --> 00:47:23,196
Speaker 3: It beat My answer, if you're lucky is a secure

1016
00:47:23,356 --> 00:47:26,596
Speaker 3: persons because I would just be out of here. I've

1017
00:47:26,596 --> 00:47:28,396
Speaker 3: been out here a half an hour ago. All right,

1018
00:47:28,436 --> 00:47:30,876
Speaker 3: so we have any we're gonna we got a little

1019
00:47:30,876 --> 00:47:32,676
Speaker 3: bit more time. We got time for one or two more.

1020
00:47:32,916 --> 00:47:35,316
Speaker 1: No one, everyone else is here. You seem to be

1021
00:47:35,356 --> 00:47:37,196
Speaker 1: the one who's in a big rush. Where do you

1022
00:47:37,236 --> 00:47:39,956
Speaker 1: have to go with me?

1023
00:47:40,356 --> 00:47:43,556
Speaker 2: So it's me either way here with me rather than

1024
00:47:43,556 --> 00:47:48,876
Speaker 2: there this in and out and an hour okay, answer questions, yeah, okay, Hi.

1025
00:47:50,156 --> 00:47:52,956
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for sharing your stories and about

1026
00:47:52,996 --> 00:47:56,396
Speaker 6: the book and all that. I'm Brian Wade a little

1027
00:47:56,396 --> 00:48:00,436
Speaker 6: bit of a back and forth on Instagram actually speaking

1028
00:48:00,476 --> 00:48:07,196
Speaker 6: of anyways something were you a subject? Oh no, no,

1029
00:48:08,076 --> 00:48:11,236
Speaker 6: So something you said sort of got me thinking about

1030
00:48:11,796 --> 00:48:14,276
Speaker 6: it being okay to change your beliefs and you don't

1031
00:48:14,316 --> 00:48:16,676
Speaker 6: have to have say the same answer to like what

1032
00:48:16,756 --> 00:48:20,476
Speaker 6: fuels like your core beliefs, and sort of what I

1033
00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:22,476
Speaker 6: think a lot of us are taught is that to

1034
00:48:22,556 --> 00:48:25,836
Speaker 6: be a good person, you have guiding principles sort of

1035
00:48:25,916 --> 00:48:28,836
Speaker 6: like immutable, and that guides everything you do, and that's,

1036
00:48:28,956 --> 00:48:31,796
Speaker 6: you know, unshakeable foundation of what you think. And then

1037
00:48:31,796 --> 00:48:34,356
Speaker 6: something like this happens and you start to doubt those things.

1038
00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:37,716
Speaker 6: And sort of how I'm interpreting that part of the

1039
00:48:37,756 --> 00:48:41,316
Speaker 6: conversation tonight is that that's okay. So I'm hoping that you

1040
00:48:41,356 --> 00:48:42,036
Speaker 6: can dive into that.

1041
00:48:42,516 --> 00:48:45,956
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I absolutely love that question, Brian, and

1042
00:48:45,996 --> 00:48:51,436
Speaker 2: thanks for reaching out to me over Instagram. The penultimate

1043
00:48:51,516 --> 00:48:54,276
Speaker 2: chapter of the book is actually about a woman who

1044
00:48:55,316 --> 00:48:58,316
Speaker 2: really believes the world is just That's a big part

1045
00:48:58,316 --> 00:49:00,236
Speaker 2: of her upbringing. So her parents kind of tell her, look,

1046
00:49:00,236 --> 00:49:01,916
Speaker 2: if you do good, good things will happen to you.

1047
00:49:02,156 --> 00:49:03,996
Speaker 2: My trador Matt and I talk about this all the time. Right,

1048
00:49:04,196 --> 00:49:07,036
Speaker 2: he believes in like karma and like good things having

1049
00:49:07,076 --> 00:49:09,436
Speaker 2: to good people. And I'm always like Matt, my heart

1050
00:49:09,476 --> 00:49:12,116
Speaker 2: rate's already up. Don't get me started. I can't have

1051
00:49:12,156 --> 00:49:16,316
Speaker 2: this conversation today, Okay, with all your spiritual woo woo nonsense.

1052
00:49:16,596 --> 00:49:16,916
Speaker 1: Okay.

1053
00:49:17,156 --> 00:49:21,196
Speaker 2: Anyway, So she really believes that if she does good,

1054
00:49:21,236 --> 00:49:24,596
Speaker 2: good things will happen, and that is actually like per

1055
00:49:24,636 --> 00:49:26,316
Speaker 2: tradictory for most of her life, right, she works hard

1056
00:49:26,356 --> 00:49:28,236
Speaker 2: in school, she gets good grades, she's nice to people,

1057
00:49:28,236 --> 00:49:30,916
Speaker 2: people are nice to her back right, input output model clean.

1058
00:49:31,716 --> 00:49:36,596
Speaker 1: And then when she is in her twenties, she gets

1059
00:49:36,636 --> 00:49:37,556
Speaker 1: really dark really quickly.

1060
00:49:37,596 --> 00:49:37,876
Speaker 3: Guys.

1061
00:49:38,396 --> 00:49:40,996
Speaker 2: She's just driving on the road and a little boy

1062
00:49:40,996 --> 00:49:43,156
Speaker 2: who's eight years old runs out onto the street because

1063
00:49:43,156 --> 00:49:46,156
Speaker 2: he didn't look in both directions, and she hits him

1064
00:49:46,196 --> 00:49:51,716
Speaker 2: and she kills him. And because Marianne's view in a

1065
00:49:51,916 --> 00:49:56,476
Speaker 2: just world is so robust, she ends up engaging in

1066
00:49:56,516 --> 00:50:00,756
Speaker 2: all these mental gymnastics to help to justify what has happened.

1067
00:50:01,276 --> 00:50:03,556
Speaker 2: She could have just said in that moment, Wow, the

1068
00:50:03,596 --> 00:50:07,076
Speaker 2: world is like the universe is callous, it's indifferent, it's

1069
00:50:07,116 --> 00:50:10,356
Speaker 2: indiscriminately cruel, or it's just done prett or it's unpredictable,

1070
00:50:11,316 --> 00:50:14,716
Speaker 2: but so much of her sense of security and meaning

1071
00:50:14,716 --> 00:50:17,436
Speaker 2: and value in the world came from the belief that

1072
00:50:17,516 --> 00:50:19,396
Speaker 2: good things happen to good people and bad things happen

1073
00:50:19,476 --> 00:50:21,516
Speaker 2: to bad people. That was a foundational view that she

1074
00:50:21,636 --> 00:50:24,516
Speaker 2: carried such that she could not allow this accident to

1075
00:50:24,556 --> 00:50:27,156
Speaker 2: threaten that view. So what does she do instead? She

1076
00:50:27,356 --> 00:50:31,556
Speaker 2: wrote a narrative in her mind that she was bad,

1077
00:50:31,916 --> 00:50:35,596
Speaker 2: that she was dangerous, that she carried a dangerous essence,

1078
00:50:36,036 --> 00:50:41,036
Speaker 2: and that her mandate was to actually spend her life

1079
00:50:41,236 --> 00:50:44,956
Speaker 2: hiding from other people to protect them from her wrath.

1080
00:50:45,076 --> 00:50:47,796
Speaker 2: Basically right, like, if she came to she wouldn't allow

1081
00:50:47,836 --> 00:50:50,596
Speaker 2: herself to be in your children anymore, She wouldn't allow

1082
00:50:50,636 --> 00:50:53,916
Speaker 2: herself to drive on freeways, she wouldn't leave knives when

1083
00:50:53,956 --> 00:50:56,116
Speaker 2: her cleaners came to clean the kitchen, she would put

1084
00:50:56,116 --> 00:51:00,196
Speaker 2: them away because she was so afraid of causing another accident.

1085
00:51:00,996 --> 00:51:05,916
Speaker 2: And it ruined her life to think this. And I

1086
00:51:05,916 --> 00:51:08,876
Speaker 2: won't share how the story ends, but needless to say,

1087
00:51:09,436 --> 00:51:13,556
Speaker 2: Marianne has to revisit her relationship with a just world.

1088
00:51:13,596 --> 00:51:16,276
Speaker 2: And that was one of those things that she grew

1089
00:51:16,316 --> 00:51:19,316
Speaker 2: up with and it was really hardened, and it took

1090
00:51:19,596 --> 00:51:22,356
Speaker 2: a lot to kind of help her loosen her grip

1091
00:51:22,756 --> 00:51:25,196
Speaker 2: on that way of thinking. So that is to say,

1092
00:51:25,236 --> 00:51:27,236
Speaker 2: I think even views that are very, very cemented and

1093
00:51:27,676 --> 00:51:30,116
Speaker 2: that we think make us good, I think that view

1094
00:51:30,196 --> 00:51:31,556
Speaker 2: is kind of Agnosticly, I don't think it makes you

1095
00:51:31,556 --> 00:51:33,756
Speaker 2: a good person or a bad person to view life

1096
00:51:33,756 --> 00:51:37,956
Speaker 2: in that way. But one of my favorite thought experiments

1097
00:51:38,436 --> 00:51:42,236
Speaker 2: that I read about in Think Again, which is an

1098
00:51:42,236 --> 00:51:46,156
Speaker 2: Adam Grant book, was imagine that you were born in

1099
00:51:47,036 --> 00:51:48,996
Speaker 2: a different time period. Imagine you were born into a

1100
00:51:48,996 --> 00:51:51,516
Speaker 2: different family. Imagine you were born into a different culture

1101
00:51:51,796 --> 00:51:55,916
Speaker 2: or religious environment, Like, how would your values be different?

1102
00:51:55,996 --> 00:51:59,236
Speaker 2: And that is just a reminder of the fragility of

1103
00:51:59,276 --> 00:52:03,956
Speaker 2: our belief systems. Let's do one more, all right, on

1104
00:52:04,436 --> 00:52:07,916
Speaker 2: the topic of change, Just any belief systems that were

1105
00:52:08,076 --> 00:52:09,756
Speaker 2: changed from right now in this book?

1106
00:52:10,436 --> 00:52:14,876
Speaker 3: Ah, there we go. That's the how have you checked?

1107
00:52:15,156 --> 00:52:15,276
Speaker 1: Is it?

1108
00:52:15,316 --> 00:52:15,556
Speaker 3: Okay?

1109
00:52:15,556 --> 00:52:19,076
Speaker 1: If I give a lecture, Yeah, we give a lecture, Okay.

1110
00:52:20,596 --> 00:52:23,516
Speaker 2: I started off saying that as I was writing this book,

1111
00:52:23,596 --> 00:52:26,276
Speaker 2: my husband Jimmy, and I were going through a tough

1112
00:52:26,316 --> 00:52:29,316
Speaker 2: period with heartbreaks and obstacles and disappointments. When it came

1113
00:52:29,356 --> 00:52:33,076
Speaker 2: to starting a family, and when I the genesis for

1114
00:52:33,116 --> 00:52:35,516
Speaker 2: the podcast was an emptiness and a void that I

1115
00:52:35,516 --> 00:52:37,036
Speaker 2: felt in my life that I wanted to fill with

1116
00:52:37,076 --> 00:52:39,516
Speaker 2: something after the first miscarriage, and then about a year

1117
00:52:39,516 --> 00:52:41,796
Speaker 2: and a half later, we found out that our surgut

1118
00:52:41,876 --> 00:52:44,636
Speaker 2: was pregnant with identical twins at identical twin girls, and

1119
00:52:44,676 --> 00:52:46,956
Speaker 2: we were just over the moon and so delighted. And

1120
00:52:46,996 --> 00:52:51,756
Speaker 2: then our surroget miscarried again, and I just want to

1121
00:52:51,756 --> 00:52:54,676
Speaker 2: share two things about that in terms of lessons and

1122
00:52:54,716 --> 00:52:56,676
Speaker 2: values that I've learned. So the first thing is that

1123
00:52:57,796 --> 00:53:00,116
Speaker 2: on the night of the second miscarriage, it was it

1124
00:53:00,156 --> 00:53:04,116
Speaker 2: was particularly challenging because we had just seen healthy beating

1125
00:53:04,156 --> 00:53:06,476
Speaker 2: hearts a couple hours earlier, so it was just a

1126
00:53:06,476 --> 00:53:09,396
Speaker 2: total roller coaster of a day where we were like,

1127
00:53:09,436 --> 00:53:11,476
Speaker 2: oh my god, this is amazing news and it's finally

1128
00:53:11,476 --> 00:53:14,836
Speaker 2: happening for us, and then oh, my gosh, no it's not.

1129
00:53:15,876 --> 00:53:18,316
Speaker 2: And I was just I was laying in bed and

1130
00:53:18,356 --> 00:53:21,396
Speaker 2: my husband, Jimmy, comes over and he's like, hey, my

1131
00:53:21,396 --> 00:53:23,036
Speaker 2: my is his pet name for me. He's like, my,

1132
00:53:23,676 --> 00:53:25,956
Speaker 2: let's just say a few things that were grateful for

1133
00:53:26,636 --> 00:53:30,356
Speaker 2: and I was like, bro, hell Na Okay, you take

1134
00:53:30,396 --> 00:53:32,996
Speaker 2: your Instagram bs, you go over to that corner with

1135
00:53:33,076 --> 00:53:36,756
Speaker 2: your toxic positivity, you do the gratitude exercise, you have

1136
00:53:36,796 --> 00:53:39,156
Speaker 2: a beer with Mitch McConnell. I'm not doing that. Okay,

1137
00:53:39,596 --> 00:53:42,796
Speaker 2: It's so jarring and I feel like crap, and so

1138
00:53:42,836 --> 00:53:44,876
Speaker 2: I'm just gonna stay under of the covers. But he

1139
00:53:44,996 --> 00:53:47,836
Speaker 2: was very cute and earnest about it, and I was like, okay, fine,

1140
00:53:47,836 --> 00:53:49,036
Speaker 2: and leg, I'll just get him off my back and

1141
00:53:49,116 --> 00:53:52,196
Speaker 2: I do this, And so I started my list started

1142
00:53:52,196 --> 00:53:54,916
Speaker 2: to flow out of me. I said, I'm really grateful

1143
00:53:54,956 --> 00:53:57,076
Speaker 2: to be an aunt to my six nieces and nephews.

1144
00:53:57,596 --> 00:54:01,396
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for my Zoom workouts with my trainer, Matt,

1145
00:54:01,436 --> 00:54:04,156
Speaker 2: who I have philosophical discussions with and then we talk

1146
00:54:04,196 --> 00:54:08,596
Speaker 2: about The Bachelor. I am so grateful that I've worked

1147
00:54:08,596 --> 00:54:11,476
Speaker 2: with the same people for like fifteen years. How lucky

1148
00:54:11,476 --> 00:54:13,036
Speaker 2: am I that I get to work with my best friends.

1149
00:54:13,716 --> 00:54:16,756
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for the California rays, how strong the sun

1150
00:54:16,836 --> 00:54:18,076
Speaker 2: is when you wake up in the morning. Like there

1151
00:54:18,156 --> 00:54:20,196
Speaker 2: was so much to be grateful for in my life.

1152
00:54:20,236 --> 00:54:22,076
Speaker 2: And I remember saying, also, I'm so grateful for a

1153
00:54:22,076 --> 00:54:24,236
Speaker 2: slight change of plans. I literally get to go into

1154
00:54:24,276 --> 00:54:27,516
Speaker 2: my apartment closet and connect with someone from around the

1155
00:54:27,516 --> 00:54:32,596
Speaker 2: world about this incredible story of change and what happened

1156
00:54:33,196 --> 00:54:36,796
Speaker 2: in engaging this exercise, which is called a self affirmation exercise.

1157
00:54:37,196 --> 00:54:40,836
Speaker 2: My husband's a softignngy or he did this unknowingly, but basically,

1158
00:54:41,436 --> 00:54:44,156
Speaker 2: what you do is you identify all the things that

1159
00:54:44,196 --> 00:54:47,156
Speaker 2: bring your life meeting and purpose that are not threatened

1160
00:54:47,156 --> 00:54:48,836
Speaker 2: by the change you're going through. So if you're in

1161
00:54:48,876 --> 00:54:50,996
Speaker 2: a tough spot in your relationship, you might focus on

1162
00:54:51,036 --> 00:54:55,556
Speaker 2: your spiritual life or you or if you are having

1163
00:54:55,596 --> 00:54:57,916
Speaker 2: a tough spot in your relationship, you focus on how

1164
00:54:57,956 --> 00:55:01,156
Speaker 2: much value you get from work. And what that did

1165
00:55:01,196 --> 00:55:04,076
Speaker 2: for me in that moment is it made me realize

1166
00:55:04,076 --> 00:55:07,716
Speaker 2: that I had been so laser focused on my dream

1167
00:55:07,796 --> 00:55:11,356
Speaker 2: of becoming a mom that I had developed tunnel vision.

1168
00:55:11,636 --> 00:55:15,476
Speaker 2: I had completely lost sight of how otherwise rich and

1169
00:55:15,516 --> 00:55:18,316
Speaker 2: dimensional and full of meaning and joy my life was.

1170
00:55:18,796 --> 00:55:22,036
Speaker 2: And it was so valuable for me to take that

1171
00:55:22,076 --> 00:55:24,236
Speaker 2: camera lens that was so zoomed in it was blurry

1172
00:55:24,276 --> 00:55:26,516
Speaker 2: at this point, you couldn't see anything and just like

1173
00:55:26,676 --> 00:55:29,476
Speaker 2: zoom out a lot and say, oh my god, your

1174
00:55:29,516 --> 00:55:32,156
Speaker 2: whole identity has not been threatened by this loss. You

1175
00:55:32,196 --> 00:55:35,116
Speaker 2: are still very much Maya, with so much joy to

1176
00:55:35,156 --> 00:55:38,156
Speaker 2: live for. And did I go to bed like happy

1177
00:55:38,356 --> 00:55:40,836
Speaker 2: that night, Of course not. But I went to bed

1178
00:55:40,876 --> 00:55:43,356
Speaker 2: feeling a bit more whole. And I think that was

1179
00:55:43,396 --> 00:55:46,556
Speaker 2: a very valuable lesson about identity. And then the final

1180
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:48,156
Speaker 2: the second thing I wanted to say in the two

1181
00:55:48,236 --> 00:55:53,596
Speaker 2: part lecture series is that one thing I discovered so

1182
00:55:53,676 --> 00:55:56,876
Speaker 2: I talk about change as revelation in this book, So

1183
00:55:57,516 --> 00:55:59,436
Speaker 2: when a really negative thing happens to us, it can

1184
00:55:59,436 --> 00:56:02,796
Speaker 2: feel like an apocalypse. And there's something interesting about the

1185
00:56:02,876 --> 00:56:05,556
Speaker 2: meaning of the word apocalypse, which is that it comes

1186
00:56:05,556 --> 00:56:08,996
Speaker 2: from the Greek word apocalypsis, which actually means revelation, so

1187
00:56:09,756 --> 00:56:13,956
Speaker 2: that anomology is instructive. Change can abend us, yes, but

1188
00:56:13,996 --> 00:56:18,076
Speaker 2: it can also reveal things to us, and losing. What

1189
00:56:18,116 --> 00:56:23,156
Speaker 2: the pregnancy losses revealed to me was I had played

1190
00:56:23,356 --> 00:56:27,436
Speaker 2: so much of my self worth in becoming a mom,

1191
00:56:27,796 --> 00:56:30,236
Speaker 2: and I think cultural forces played a really big role.

1192
00:56:30,596 --> 00:56:34,236
Speaker 2: But it really felt like if I did not achieve

1193
00:56:34,276 --> 00:56:40,036
Speaker 2: this goal that society told me was identity defining, I

1194
00:56:40,036 --> 00:56:43,876
Speaker 2: could never live a fulfilling, happy, meaningful life. There's this

1195
00:56:43,916 --> 00:56:46,436
Speaker 2: Sheila Heady quote that's like, if you don't have children,

1196
00:56:46,516 --> 00:56:49,556
Speaker 2: people wonder what your meaning is and wonder if you

1197
00:56:49,596 --> 00:56:52,316
Speaker 2: have any meaning at all. And there's a particular stigma

1198
00:56:52,396 --> 00:56:55,156
Speaker 2: reserve for child free women. I am a child free,

1199
00:56:55,276 --> 00:57:01,556
Speaker 2: cat free woman. Jd Vance Okay, And so I just

1200
00:57:01,636 --> 00:57:04,076
Speaker 2: remember that if you had asked me in the moment

1201
00:57:04,116 --> 00:57:06,476
Speaker 2: when I'm under the covers, when Jimmy's asking me this

1202
00:57:06,556 --> 00:57:10,396
Speaker 2: incredibly annoying question about being grateful, and you had asked

1203
00:57:10,396 --> 00:57:12,956
Speaker 2: me in that moment like, maya, will anything good ever

1204
00:57:12,996 --> 00:57:15,356
Speaker 2: come from this? I would have been like, no, Will

1205
00:57:15,356 --> 00:57:19,476
Speaker 2: you ever feel truly fulfilled in life if you don't

1206
00:57:19,476 --> 00:57:22,676
Speaker 2: have children? I would have said no. And yet here

1207
00:57:22,716 --> 00:57:25,916
Speaker 2: I am, like three or so years later, I am

1208
00:57:26,076 --> 00:57:31,276
Speaker 2: child free, and I am the happiest, calmest, most peaceful,

1209
00:57:31,876 --> 00:57:34,876
Speaker 2: joyful version of myself. And I never saw that coming.

1210
00:57:35,556 --> 00:57:38,756
Speaker 2: It was a transformation that was occurring kind of subconsciously.

1211
00:57:39,276 --> 00:57:42,076
Speaker 2: And I credit the people that I interviewed for the

1212
00:57:42,076 --> 00:57:44,796
Speaker 2: book for giving me the kind of wisdom that I

1213
00:57:44,876 --> 00:57:46,716
Speaker 2: needed to get there to book. T LL first of all,

1214
00:57:47,196 --> 00:57:51,076
Speaker 2: recognize that I had this unhealthy identity attachment to motherhood

1215
00:57:51,076 --> 00:57:52,996
Speaker 2: and to challenge to understand where did it come from,

1216
00:57:52,996 --> 00:57:53,836
Speaker 2: why do I believe this?

1217
00:57:53,876 --> 00:57:54,796
Speaker 1: Why is it problematic?

1218
00:57:55,316 --> 00:57:57,476
Speaker 2: But then also to learn so many other valuable lessons

1219
00:57:57,476 --> 00:57:59,436
Speaker 2: about what it means to live a rich life even

1220
00:57:59,436 --> 00:58:02,076
Speaker 2: when life doesn't go according to plan. And so I

1221
00:58:02,116 --> 00:58:06,036
Speaker 2: am so grateful for the personal evolution that I experienced.

1222
00:58:06,116 --> 00:58:08,476
Speaker 2: It was such an unexpected part of the journey. I

1223
00:58:08,516 --> 00:58:10,676
Speaker 2: do write it back out it in the final chapter,

1224
00:58:10,756 --> 00:58:12,796
Speaker 2: but the gains have continued far beyond when I had

1225
00:58:12,796 --> 00:58:15,796
Speaker 2: to submit this for publication, Like I continue to derive

1226
00:58:15,916 --> 00:58:19,076
Speaker 2: so much meaning and value from those stories. And so yeah,

1227
00:58:19,116 --> 00:58:21,116
Speaker 2: that was a It was a wonderful belief to have

1228
00:58:21,316 --> 00:58:23,436
Speaker 2: challenged Maya Shucker.

1229
00:58:24,796 --> 00:58:26,836
Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much. Thank you Michael.

1230
00:58:35,596 --> 00:58:38,396
Speaker 2: Hey, I hope you enjoyed this special live episode of

1231
00:58:38,436 --> 00:58:41,236
Speaker 2: A slight Change of Plans. You can find my book

1232
00:58:41,316 --> 00:58:44,196
Speaker 2: The Other Side of Change in the episode notes or

1233
00:58:44,236 --> 00:58:48,556
Speaker 2: at changewithmya dot com slash book and exciting news. We

1234
00:58:48,716 --> 00:58:51,716
Speaker 2: recently learned that the Other Side of Change is an

1235
00:58:51,756 --> 00:58:55,196
Speaker 2: instant New York Times bestseller. If this is your first

1236
00:58:55,196 --> 00:58:58,556
Speaker 2: time listening to the show, welcome, We are so happy

1237
00:58:58,596 --> 00:59:01,396
Speaker 2: you're here. If you want to get caught up, check

1238
00:59:01,396 --> 00:59:03,516
Speaker 2: out the special link in our show notes for what

1239
00:59:03,556 --> 00:59:07,156
Speaker 2: I'm calling the Slight Change of Plans Starter Pack. It's

1240
00:59:07,196 --> 00:59:09,596
Speaker 2: a list of some of my favorite episodes that we've

1241
00:59:09,636 --> 00:59:14,156
Speaker 2: aired and features a great mix of incredible stories and practical,

1242
00:59:14,276 --> 00:59:16,596
Speaker 2: cutting edge science that I think you're going to love.

1243
00:59:17,476 --> 00:59:19,796
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a week with another episode of

1244
00:59:19,836 --> 00:59:21,076
Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans.

1245
00:59:21,476 --> 00:59:21,956
Speaker 1: See you then.

1246
00:59:33,316 --> 00:59:36,636
Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive

1247
00:59:36,676 --> 00:59:40,596
Speaker 2: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes

1248
00:59:40,636 --> 00:59:45,676
Speaker 2: our showrunner Alexandra Garritan, our lead producer Megan Lubn, our

1249
00:59:45,716 --> 00:59:50,276
Speaker 2: associate producer Sonya Gerwitt, and our sound engineer Erica Hwang.

1250
00:59:50,796 --> 00:59:54,396
Speaker 2: Louis Gara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith

1251
00:59:54,516 --> 00:59:58,196
Speaker 2: helped arrange the vocals. Special thanks to Daphne Chen for

1252
00:59:58,236 --> 01:00:01,596
Speaker 2: her editorial support of this episode. A Slight Change of

1253
01:00:01,636 --> 01:00:05,476
Speaker 2: Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so big thanks

1254
01:00:05,476 --> 01:00:09,236
Speaker 2: to everyone there, and of course, a very special thanks

1255
01:00:09,276 --> 01:00:11,756
Speaker 2: to Jimmy Wait