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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about the

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Speaker 1: very worst people in all of history. And this week

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the very worst archaeologists in all of history,

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Speaker 1: or at least, I mean, particularly a guy who's going

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Speaker 1: to be on the short list for the most destructive

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Speaker 1: archaeologists ever, Heinrich Schliemann. But before we talk more about

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Speaker 1: old Heiney, Let's bring back our wonderful guest for this week,

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Speaker 1: Kristen Conger, host of Unladylike and Conspiracy. She wrote two

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Speaker 1: great podcasts. Kristen, welcome back. How are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm great.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me back and excited

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Speaker 3: to learn more about this wretched archaeologist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's about to get like really wretched. And he's

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Speaker 1: about to basically purchase a wife, which is always a

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Speaker 1: good time in old timey stories.

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Speaker 4: Don't like that phrasing.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it's not great, Sophie. It's not great. We'll

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Speaker 1: hear about that very soon.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So Heinrich Schliemann is going to make his very first attempt.

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Speaker 1: And we left him off. He'd visited Italy. He'd watched,

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Speaker 1: spent a couple of weeks watching an excavation in Pompeii.

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Speaker 1: And he'd been like, this is really cool. I want

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Speaker 1: to do archaeology. Does it have to take so long?

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Speaker 1: Does like it have to take a long time to

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Speaker 1: dig things up? What if there were a faster, lazier way, right? Um,

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Speaker 1: So he's going to make his first attempt at a dig,

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Speaker 1: really just a few months or weeks after that. And

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Speaker 1: he has, again, very little understanding. He hasn't taken any classes.

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Speaker 1: He just kind of watched a guy and decided he

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Speaker 1: was too slow. So later on in that same 1868 vacation,

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Speaker 1: he travels to Greece and he goes to the summit

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Speaker 1: of Mount Athos, which is in like the main Greek peninsula.

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Speaker 1: And he decides for no real reason that this had

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Speaker 1: been Odysseus's castle. He finds some ruins, like a buried wall,

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Speaker 1: and he's like, this must have been Odysseus' home. There's

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Speaker 1: no reason to believe this. But one thing, Odysseus came

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Speaker 1: from what scholars would refer to it as Homer's Ithaca.

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Speaker 1: There is an island of Ithaca in the Greek area,

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Speaker 1: and Homer was probably writing about that island. Odysseus was

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Speaker 1: probably supposed to have been the king of that island

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Speaker 1: of Ithaca. But we don't 100% know. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: some debate about that. And a lot of that debate

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Speaker 1: comes from Heinrich Schliemann because Heinrich is going to say, no,

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Speaker 1: he didn't come from the island that's named the same

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Speaker 1: as like the island in the story. He came from

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Speaker 1: this mountain because I found some stuff there. That's really

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Speaker 1: all it's based on. There's no reason for him to

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Speaker 1: think Odysseus was here. There's no evidence Odysseus was a

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Speaker 1: real person.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Just classic Heinrich. He's like, must've been Odysseus's house. Cause

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Speaker 1: I found some stuff in the ground. Um, So he

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Speaker 1: decides he's going to put together a dig to excavate

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Speaker 1: like whatever is at this site. He has to leave

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Speaker 1: to do this. And when he comes back, he can't

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Speaker 1: find the walls. And we don't know if he actually

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Speaker 1: ever found walls. He had been pretty sure he had,

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Speaker 1: but he winds up digging and all he digs up

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Speaker 1: is like some funeral urns. which is kind of fucked

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Speaker 1: up to dig up. You should probably leave those where

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Speaker 1: they are. Man, I don't know. What do you need

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Speaker 1: those for? And he does eventually find the ruins of

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Speaker 1: a small building that, who knows, might have dated back

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Speaker 1: to ancient Greece. We don't know, because Heinrich does no

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Speaker 1: work to preserve, like, the age of anything he's working with.

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Speaker 1: And whatever real value his find might have had was

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Speaker 1: surely ruined by the fact that he insisted this, this, like,

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Speaker 1: small shack must have been, like, Odysseus's palace. And I

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Speaker 1: was like, no, that's just like a, Like maybe a

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Speaker 1: small barn or something? Like we have no idea. But

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Speaker 1: there's no reason to think it was a palace. It's

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Speaker 1: not big. Now that he's found something wonderful, Heinrich begins

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Speaker 1: increasingly trying to insert himself into scientific conversations about ancient history.

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Speaker 1: He's writing letters. He's reaching out to these real archaeologists

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Speaker 1: and historians. He's trying to publish stuff. And he's not

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Speaker 1: really taken seriously at this point, but he is trying

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Speaker 1: to be. And in regards to Troy... he becomes what's

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Speaker 1: known at the time as a realist, right? The realists

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Speaker 1: in regards to Troy are people who believe the Iliad

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Speaker 1: is written about a real war that really happened, right?

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Speaker 1: There's debate about how much of the poem is true,

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Speaker 1: but there was some real war that this it's all

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Speaker 1: based on, right? And this is still debated today. At

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Speaker 1: the time, I think the realist position is more or

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Speaker 1: less the dominant one that like, yeah, there was some

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Speaker 1: kind of real conflict that that's all based on. Um,

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Speaker 1: But at the time, Heinrich's idea is not the dominant

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Speaker 1: accepted one. There's a lot of people who'd be like, no,

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Speaker 1: it was just, it's a complete fable. What's funny is

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Speaker 1: that the ancient peoples, and remember Homer composed his poems

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Speaker 1: centuries after the Trojan War would have occurred, knew where

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Speaker 1: Troy was. And in fact, it was a tourist attraction, right?

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Speaker 1: Homer is super popular throughout the whole like later classical

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Speaker 1: periods and during the Roman Empire. And for a large,

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Speaker 1: a big chunk of like Greek, you know, classical history

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Speaker 1: and all of Roman history, Troy is a tourist trap.

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Speaker 1: Like they know kind of like where the ruins are

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Speaker 1: and people will visit to see the sites of the

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Speaker 1: Trojan War. Now, any real walls from that era of

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Speaker 1: the war were largely buried, but there were these big

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Speaker 1: burial mounds. And there were burial mounds from, like, regular

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Speaker 1: people who had lived in the area for a long time. But, like,

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Speaker 1: Roman tourists would declare them, oh, this is the burial

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Speaker 1: mound of Achilles, doing the same thing that Schliemann did.

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Speaker 1: There's no reason to believe that, right? Other than that,

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Speaker 1: you can make money, like, taking gullible tourists to see.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to see where Achilles is buried? This

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Speaker 1: is literally the first.

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Speaker 4: It's the first Star Tours.

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Speaker 3: Star Maps.

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Speaker 1: It was so easy back then. Yes, Star Maps. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a, I don't know, Robert De Niro's house.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 1: So by the late 1800s, though, the site of Troy

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Speaker 1: had fallen into disrepair. And it had been that way

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Speaker 1: for like well over a thousand years. So even though

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Speaker 1: during the classical period, the Roman Empire, it's a well-known

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Speaker 1: tourist site. By the 1800s, there's doubt as to whether

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Speaker 1: or not a Troy had ever even existed. because all

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Speaker 1: that's left of it is like a big mound on

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Speaker 1: a chunk of the Turkish coast, right? So in between

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Speaker 1: jaunts overseas and time studying at various universities, Heinrich kept

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Speaker 1: up a voluminous correspondence and was often a huge dick

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Speaker 1: to his family. His elderly father asked for money, and

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Speaker 1: Heinrich did give him the money, but in the letter

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Speaker 1: before he gave it over, he asserted, I expect you

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Speaker 1: to use the money in establishing yourself in a manner

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Speaker 1: befitting the father of Heinrich Schliemann. Whoa! He's not, like, famous.

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Speaker 1: He's just, yeah. My father can't look poor. You reflect

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Speaker 1: on me. Now, Schliemann is not a U.S. citizen at

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Speaker 1: this point in his life, though he would soon become one.

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Speaker 1: But biographer Leo Duell notes that he, quote, considered himself

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Speaker 1: a citizen of the United States and broadcast his Civis

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Speaker 1: Americana Sum to the world long before he ever assumed

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Speaker 1: title to it. That book describes him as American to

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Speaker 1: a fault, which is how I would describe myself as well, unfortunately. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's it. You got me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That also notes, quote, his bigotries towards non-European races were staggering.

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Speaker 1: And it gives several examples of Schliemann quotes from his

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Speaker 1: letters that include, the laziness of Negroes is beyond description

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Speaker 1: and the physiognomy of the Californian Indian is the most

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Speaker 1: stupid and ugly I have ever seen in my life.

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't have a big influence on his life,

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Speaker 1: but super racist. Like it doesn't have a big influence

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Speaker 1: on the story, but remember Heinrich, big, big old racist asshole, right?

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Speaker 1: He's a German in the 1850s.

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Speaker 2: When they whip out some physiognomy, you know, the head shapes.

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Speaker 1: Physiognomy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You're about to hear some racism you haven't even

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Speaker 1: conceived of. Someone's about to tell you how fucking Dutch

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Speaker 1: aren't really white.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Stand by. Stand by here, everybody.

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Speaker 3: Look at this guy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Look at this guy when he's young.

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Speaker 1: Man, they really spent money on top hats in those days.

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Speaker 3: What's he hiding under there? Look at that stash.

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Speaker 4: And then there he is. There's how he's aged. He

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Speaker 4: looks so German here.

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Speaker 3: He does.

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Speaker 1: He does. He's very German. And by the number of

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Speaker 1: top hat pictures he has, we know this man had

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Speaker 1: mercury poisoning like you would not believe. Anyone who's top

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Speaker 1: hatting in this time is just basically raw dogging straight

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Speaker 1: mercury into their skull. Look at this fit, though. We

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Speaker 1: need to return. Sorry. That's an aspect of style I

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Speaker 1: want to get back to, is top hats just drenched

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Speaker 1: in mercury.

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Speaker 2: Goddamn.

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Speaker 1: That's when things were proper. So Heinrich gains his American

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Speaker 1: citizenship in 1869, and he gets it for the most

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Speaker 1: American reason of all, to cheat his wife out of

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Speaker 1: a bunch of his money. He buys a house in

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Speaker 1: Indianapolis and he establishes residence there for three months, which

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Speaker 1: is long, as long as you need to be living

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Speaker 1: in Indiana to use the Indiana state divorce laws, which

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Speaker 1: are like really positive for his situation. Right. Um, So

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Speaker 1: he decides Indiana divorce laws are going to be the

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Speaker 1: best ones to live under in order to split from

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Speaker 1: his wife, Ekaterina, who'd become a real buzzkill on his

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Speaker 1: plans to be a famous archaeologist by this point. She

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Speaker 1: was complaining about the fact that he's never home and

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Speaker 1: has abandoned his family.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, wasn't she still in St. Petersburg at this point?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's in St. Petersburg, and he is trying to

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Speaker 1: cut her off from his money, right? That's why he

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Speaker 1: wants to divorce her in Indiana. And that's why he

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Speaker 1: becomes an American, which again, American to a fault. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing more American. It does make me patriotic to hear

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Speaker 1: about Germans moving here to divorce their wives and cheat

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Speaker 1: them out of half their money. To get his divorce,

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Speaker 1: he had to lie and say he planned to build

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Speaker 1: a life in Indiana. He's going to leave the country

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Speaker 1: as soon as he gets divorced from his wife. This

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Speaker 1: is a total lie. However, before he leaves the United States,

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Speaker 1: he has one last important question to figure out. Who's

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Speaker 1: going to have sex with him now?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 1: That's obviously Heinrich's priority. He's gotten divorced. Time to find

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Speaker 1: another wife.

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: In his biography, Leo Duhl wrote that Schliemann was least

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Speaker 1: lucky with women most of his life, unlike his philandering

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Speaker 1: father who begot a child in old age. So he's

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Speaker 1: probably going to piss the dad, keep showing him up.

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Speaker 1: He's like, oh, dad fucks.

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Speaker 3: This is upsetting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, dad fucks. This is a real issue for me.

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Speaker 1: Heinrich Leo writes, was hardly a favorite with the ladies

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Speaker 1: before he got rich or after, but obviously having money

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Speaker 1: is going to really help his ability in that department.

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Speaker 1: Duell writes that, quote, his sparse physical frame, shrill, high-pitched voice, stinginess, petulance,

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Speaker 1: and egomania did not mark even the young man for

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Speaker 1: easy conquests. Besides, he was too disciplined and jealous of

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Speaker 1: his time and energy to lose himself in frivolous pursuits.

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Speaker 1: He explained his lack of success with women in another way.

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Speaker 1: I myself am blind, he wrote a sister. Passion clouds

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Speaker 1: my vision. I see only the virtues and never the

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Speaker 1: failings of the fair sex. Yeah, that sounds true from

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Speaker 1: a guy who, like, moved to Indiana to fuck over

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Speaker 1: his ex-wife.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so Manosphere. Just like, oh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh.

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Speaker 3: They always trick you.

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Speaker 1: The Manosphere would have hit him like fucking smallpox hit

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Speaker 1: the Americas. Like, this guy would have been so on

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Speaker 1: board for Manosphere shit. That's hilarious. A lot of people died, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: That's awful. I know. So Heinrich was an old guy

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Speaker 1: officially by 1869, but he is also rich as shit.

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Speaker 1: And he decides to use that as a base to

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Speaker 1: launch a new attempt to find love. Probably my favorite

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Speaker 1: account of Schliemann's life comes from the book Digging for

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Speaker 1: Troy by Jill Rubelkaba and Eric Klein. That book notes

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Speaker 1: that the second time around, he figured he had learned

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Speaker 1: exactly what qualities make the perfect wife. And we're about

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Speaker 1: to hear what those qualities are because he writes them

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Speaker 1: down and All the biography the book notes is that

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Speaker 1: he finds a friend who he trusts to go to

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Speaker 1: Greece and woo women on his behalf. He's giving a

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Speaker 1: friend a list of traits that he wants in a wife.

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Speaker 1: And this friend is supposed to find a girl, emphasis

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Speaker 1: on the girl, in Greece who wants to marry him, right?

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Speaker 1: I have questions about this friend and who he is.

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Speaker 1: But this whole story does make it really clear to

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Speaker 1: me why it was so easy for Jeffrey Epstein to

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Speaker 1: make rich old guy friends. There's always been a market for, like,

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Speaker 1: fixer who can deliver to a rich old man a

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Speaker 1: teenage girl, right? That has always been a profitable business

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Speaker 1: to be in. And that's what he's doing, right? From

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Speaker 1: the book Digging for Troy, quote, he wrote to a

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Speaker 1: friend asking for help with the search. The woman he

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Speaker 1: had in mind should be well-educated but poor, with black

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Speaker 1: hair and, if possible, beautiful. But my main requirement is

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Speaker 1: a good and loving heart. More important, she must read Homer.

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Speaker 1: Schliemann assured his friend that he could tell everything he

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Speaker 1: needed to know from a picture. His friends sent several.

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Speaker 1: Schliemann dismissed one after another. Too bossy, too ill-tempered, too domineering.

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Speaker 1: All this decided from pictures alone. Finally, Schliemann settled on

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Speaker 1: a student who was about to become a teacher. Her

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Speaker 1: name was Sophia Engastrominos. Schliemann wrote his friend, I swear

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Speaker 1: she is the only woman who shall be my wife.

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Speaker 1: Schliemann left America to meet Sophia in Athens, Greece, where

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Speaker 1: he told her, if you marry me, it must be

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Speaker 1: so that we can excavate together and enjoy a common

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm for Homer. She must have liked Homer, and maybe

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Speaker 1: even Schliemann as well, because 19 days later, they were married.

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Speaker 1: Schliemann was 47, and Sophia just 17. Yeah! Yes, that's

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Speaker 1: an upsetting age gap.

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Speaker 2: This guy sounds like the most insufferable date. I just

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Speaker 2: keep thinking about the description of him with his shrill voice. Shrill,

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Speaker 2: and talking about antiquities and Homer.

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Speaker 1: Too bossy! Too domineering!

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Speaker 4: He probably sounds like Ben Shapiro. Oh, man.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, a little Ben Shapiro-y voice.

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Speaker 2: Homer!

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Speaker 4: Homer!

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Speaker 1: Homer!

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Speaker 4: Homer!

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Speaker 1: He's got his Homer-loving child bride now.

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Speaker 3: Jesus Christ. Although, I will say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't agree with the biography that this suggests

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Speaker 1: she had a shared enthusiasm for Homer or for Sleeman.

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Speaker 1: All I think this really says is that, like, some

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Speaker 1: Epstein shit went down and Heinrich bought a teenage girl.

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Speaker 1: Although there is a plausible, more optimistic way to look

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Speaker 1: at it that like, hey, maybe this poor chick in

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Speaker 1: Greece was like, There's this rich idiot who's willing to, like,

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Speaker 1: marry me, and he's not going to live that much longer, right? Like,

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Speaker 1: especially if he wants to go digging in Turkey, very

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Speaker 1: easily he could die doing that. And then I get

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Speaker 1: his money, right? She may have been making a very

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Speaker 1: smart decision. And if so, if she was just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm willing to humor a rich old asshole

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Speaker 1: until he strokes out. If that was your move, hats

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Speaker 1: off to you, Sophia.

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Speaker 3: Good job. Top hats off to you.

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Speaker 1: Top hats off to you. His money is better with

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Speaker 1: you than anyone else. Um, as Rubel Kama and Klein

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Speaker 1: describe it, once companionship was taken care of, Heinrich pivots

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Speaker 1: to his much larger plan, which is making himself immortal

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Speaker 1: through fame, right? He's gotten rich, but he's not famous.

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Speaker 1: He wants to become a famous figure. And the way

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Speaker 1: to do that is to make a great discovery, to

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Speaker 1: find the buried ruins of Troy. Earlier on, during his

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Speaker 1: first experimentations with archaeology, He'd met another real archaeologist, a

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Speaker 1: guy named Frank Calvert, and this would have been when

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Speaker 1: he was in Turkey during his grand tour in 1868.

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Speaker 1: The two met by chance near a dig site that

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Speaker 1: Calvert owned, a big mound called Hisarlik. Through judicious and

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Speaker 1: careful study, Calvert had grown convinced that Hisarlik held the

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Speaker 1: ruins of Troy, and he was right. It absolutely does. Now,

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Speaker 1: I should note here that Calvert did not originate the idea.

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Speaker 1: For a long time, realists who believed in Troy had

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Speaker 1: traced its ruins to a location called Pinarbashi that was nearby.

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Speaker 1: But in 1801, a kind of a tourist amateur archaeologist,

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Speaker 1: I think, named Edward Clark had visited Hisarlik and had

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Speaker 1: picked it out as the site of the actual Troy

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Speaker 1: by doing like real archaeology. He had done some light excavations.

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Speaker 1: He'd found some coins and inscriptions. And he argued based

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Speaker 1: on the evidence that like this is very likely where

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Speaker 1: Troy was, right? And so Calvert is convinced that Clark

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Speaker 1: is right, and he buys a bunch of this property

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Speaker 1: so that he can start digging. But he doesn't have, like,

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Speaker 1: a lot of money to keep doing it.

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Speaker 4: Wait, Robert. Robert, this is not the first time this

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Speaker 4: guy's come up on our show. When you did the

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Speaker 4: episode with Chelsea back in many years behind the swastika,

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Speaker 4: this guy came up.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, Edward Clark, yeah, because he was, like, doing

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Speaker 1: early excavations and stuff. Well, I mean, and Schliemann does, too.

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Speaker 1: They find swastikas as part of the, as, like, on

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Speaker 1: some of these ruins, which is part of what, like,

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Speaker 1: we do talk about that in the swastika episode. The

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Speaker 1: fact that they, there's, like, that's a symbol that exists

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Speaker 1: in some of these ruins is part of what ignites

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Speaker 1: swastika fever in Europe. Because the discovery of these Trojan

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Speaker 1: ruins is such a big deal, it, like, and because

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Speaker 1: nationalism is all budding in this late period, too, like,

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Speaker 1: it all, it all unfortunately kind of comes together in

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Speaker 1: a stew. that that's that's going to have some tragic

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Speaker 1: outcomes much later on.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But nobody's morally to blame for that stuff here.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Heinrich meets this dude, Calvert, who's become convinced that Clark

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Speaker 1: was right. And Calvert convinces like converts Heinrich to the

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Speaker 1: view that his Sarlacc is where the Trojan ruins are.

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Speaker 1: So Heinrich basically heads back west long enough to divorce

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Speaker 1: his wife and marry this child. And then he's like,

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Speaker 1: it's time to go dig up the ruins of Troy.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: Because he had very little experience with any of this,

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Speaker 1: Heinrich used Calvert as his own personal Google or I

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Speaker 1: guess fucking chat GPT today. And he bombards the man

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Speaker 1: with questions about like, how do you do an archaeological dig?

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Speaker 1: What do I buy to spend several years digging in Turkey, right?

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Speaker 1: Calvert himself is broke and had no more money to

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Speaker 1: fund the dig on his own land. So he was

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Speaker 1: happy to help Heinrich in the hopes that this rich

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Speaker 1: asshole would pay to fund the achievement of his dream.

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Speaker 1: In 1870, Heinrich arrived at the dig site Hisarlik with

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Speaker 1: a team of hired men armed with pickaxes. Now, it

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Speaker 1: is important for me to note that Hisarlik was located

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Speaker 1: within the heartland of the Ottoman Empire. As a real

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Speaker 1: functioning government, sorta, they had a process for archaeologists to

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Speaker 1: follow before digging shit up. But Heinrich is not a

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Speaker 1: go-through-the-processes kind of guy. He knew that would take time,

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Speaker 1: and it would inevitably just force him to keep the

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Speaker 1: best stuff he found in the country where he'd found it,

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Speaker 1: and that's not acceptable. Heinrich is not getting permission?

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Speaker 4: Motherfucker's not asking shit.

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Speaker 1: Well, debatably not. He definitely doesn't get a permit and

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Speaker 1: he's definitely digging illegally. In my research, I found a

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Speaker 1: 1999 article in the Journal of Archaeology that claimed Schliemann

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Speaker 1: made an informal agreement with Ottoman authorities to split his

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Speaker 1: findings in exchange for permission. So he didn't get a permit,

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Speaker 1: but whoever the local authorities were, he promised to split

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Speaker 1: the treasure with if he found anything.

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Speaker 4: There's no way he did that, yeah.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't do this in any case, but he may

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Speaker 1: have had some local approval. Whatever the case, he's breaking

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Speaker 1: the law by doing this dig, right? You know who

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Speaker 1: else is breaking the law?

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: No. Maybe.

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Speaker 1: God willing, our sponsors, you know, we'll see. If you

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Speaker 1: can buy a switch to turn a Glock into a

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Speaker 1: machine gun off of Facebook illegally, why not have illegal

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Speaker 1: advertisements on podcasts? You know, let's see. Maybe it'll be

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00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:14,010
Speaker 1: something fun. And we're back. So Heinrich had become convinced

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Speaker 1: that a specific spot in this mound, Hisarlik, would yield

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Speaker 1: up the ruins of Troy's walls. And again, they are

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Speaker 1: in there, but a lot of stuff is in there.

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Speaker 1: Troy was a long time ago, and people had kept

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Speaker 1: building over the same site over thousands of years. Because

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Speaker 1: of this, Calvert urges him to gently test his hypothesis.

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Speaker 1: If you think the walls are here, let's dig several

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Speaker 1: small trenches in different places. to try and survey what

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Speaker 1: might be there and get an idea of where we

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Speaker 1: need to do deeper excavations without causing any unnecessary destruction.

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Speaker 1: And Schliemann said to that, I'm not going to do

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Speaker 1: things slow way when we can do it the slow way,

408
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,220
Speaker 1: we can do it the fast way. From the book

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Speaker 1: Digging for Troy, quote, convinced that Troy was at the

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Speaker 1: very bottom of the mound at Hisarlik, He armed his

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Speaker 1: workmen with pickaxes and ordered a huge trench dug into

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Speaker 1: the center of the mound. Sophie will show you how

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Speaker 1: that looks. You can get an idea of how much

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00:20:06,070 --> 00:20:10,040
Speaker 1: is removed from this. Like, it's just, it's a V.

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Speaker 1: He just tears through this fucking mound, which is layers

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Speaker 1: and layers of artifacts. Yeah, it's deep and very destructive. Now,

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Speaker 1: he's got another professional archaeologist that he's brought on, and

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Speaker 1: this guy begs him to stop. And it's like, you

419
00:20:25,940 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 1: have to take minute notes about what comes from what depth,

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Speaker 1: about where everything is, because each layer of ruins corresponds

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Speaker 1: to a different period of time. And artifacts uncovered without

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00:20:36,470 --> 00:20:38,869
Speaker 1: knowledge of where they came from, without their context, are

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00:20:38,890 --> 00:20:42,149
Speaker 1: close to useless, right? Schliemann calls that guy a pussy

424
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Speaker 1: and punches it up to 11. Quote from Digging for Troy.

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Speaker 1: Schliemann's methods were savage and brutal. He plowed through layers

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Speaker 1: of soil and everything in them without proper record-keeping. No

427
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Speaker 1: mapping of finds. Few descriptions of discoveries. Single-mindedly, Schliemann chopped

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Speaker 1: his way toward Troy. He pushed himself to exhaustion. The

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00:21:00,670 --> 00:21:03,170
Speaker 1: workday began at first light. They worked until the sun

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Speaker 1: set and the light was too dim to continue. Schliemann

431
00:21:05,670 --> 00:21:09,230
Speaker 1: oversaw it all, pacing the site with his odd, gliding walk. Later,

432
00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:11,429
Speaker 1: by lamplight, Schliemann wrote the events of the day in

433
00:21:11,470 --> 00:21:14,649
Speaker 1: a plain, stiff-covered notebook. He recorded the number of workmen,

434
00:21:14,690 --> 00:21:17,530
Speaker 1: the day's expenses, and the progress on the dig— Sometimes

435
00:21:17,550 --> 00:21:20,330
Speaker 1: he sketched the objects they had found that day. Today,

436
00:21:20,450 --> 00:21:23,330
Speaker 1: archaeologists wouldn't wait until the evening to write out their notes.

437
00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:25,790
Speaker 1: They wouldn't rely on their memory, which is unreliable. They

438
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:28,430
Speaker 1: take notes right in the trench. But Schliemann was never

439
00:21:28,490 --> 00:21:31,679
Speaker 1: concerned with accuracy, particularly when the truth didn't fit the

440
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: story he was spinning. Because he had decided the summit

441
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,379
Speaker 1: of the hill would be the logical place for the

442
00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:39,320
Speaker 1: most important and impressive buildings to have stood, when he

443
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: found walls elsewhere, he merely moved them to the summit

444
00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:43,300
Speaker 1: in his official reports.

445
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:43,419
Speaker 2: Oh!

446
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:47,130
Speaker 1: So he's not only destroying stuff, he's lying about what

447
00:21:47,170 --> 00:21:49,450
Speaker 1: he finds where, because he's like, that doesn't work with

448
00:21:49,490 --> 00:21:51,459
Speaker 1: where I think things should be. So I'm just going

449
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 1: to say it's in a different place. I cannot exaggerate

450
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 1: how bad he is at being an archaeologist.

451
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:02,980
Speaker 2: Just imagine him shrilly yelling at his teams, deeper, dig deeper.

452
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:03,940
Speaker 1: Yeah, they've got like artifacts.

453
00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 3: Throw those away.

454
00:22:04,619 --> 00:22:06,580
Speaker 1: Those are too high up. They're not from ancient Troy.

455
00:22:07,140 --> 00:22:10,470
Speaker 1: Burn them. As his teams plunged down, they tore through

456
00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:13,020
Speaker 1: pottery sherds and bricks, which turned out to be part

457
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 1: of a massive interlocking series of ancient walls, layers and

458
00:22:16,619 --> 00:22:19,899
Speaker 1: layers of them from thousands of years of time. Heinrich

459
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,420
Speaker 1: was overjoyed. Surely these were the walls of Troy. They

460
00:22:23,460 --> 00:22:26,270
Speaker 1: were walls, and they were in fact in the location

461
00:22:26,310 --> 00:22:29,490
Speaker 1: of ancient Troy. So what did Heinrich do wrong here?

462
00:22:30,030 --> 00:22:31,929
Speaker 1: To explain, I'm going to have to jump forward to

463
00:22:31,950 --> 00:22:34,570
Speaker 1: the present day for a second. We now know that Heinrich,

464
00:22:34,609 --> 00:22:37,700
Speaker 1: by which I really mean Calvert, was correct. Hisarlik contained

465
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,130
Speaker 1: the ruins of Troy, or rather, the ruins of several Troys.

466
00:22:41,550 --> 00:22:43,730
Speaker 1: And by digging down to the very bottom of the mound,

467
00:22:43,790 --> 00:22:45,750
Speaker 1: the stuff he found at the bottom of the mound

468
00:22:45,790 --> 00:22:48,609
Speaker 1: that he is convinced is Troy, are the ruins of

469
00:22:48,670 --> 00:22:52,850
Speaker 1: a sizable walled village that archaeologists today call Troy II.

470
00:22:53,530 --> 00:22:58,700
Speaker 1: This coastal village would have prospered between 2550 and 2300 BC,

471
00:22:59,020 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 1: which is centuries before the time most experts expect the

472
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,609
Speaker 1: Trojan War would have occurred. This means... that in digging

473
00:23:05,690 --> 00:23:09,010
Speaker 1: down to Troy 2 and tearing through or throwing away

474
00:23:09,070 --> 00:23:12,129
Speaker 1: everything he found above it, Heinrich Schliemann had in fact

475
00:23:12,210 --> 00:23:15,459
Speaker 1: destroyed large portions of the ruins of Troy he was

476
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: looking for. He dug down to an older thing and

477
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 1: destroyed actual Troy.

478
00:23:19,980 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 4: Wow.

479
00:23:21,220 --> 00:23:24,360
Speaker 3: He literally dug too deep. Yeah.

480
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: He dug too deep and just tossed out the shit

481
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,940
Speaker 1: he was actually looking for because it didn't seem cool

482
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: enough and it wasn't in the area he thought it

483
00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: should be.

484
00:23:31,420 --> 00:23:31,530
Speaker 3: Yeah.

485
00:23:31,550 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 4: Yeah.

486
00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:35,910
Speaker 1: We will never have a comprehensive understanding of what we lost.

487
00:23:36,270 --> 00:23:39,149
Speaker 1: And some passages from Digging for Troy are heartbreaking if

488
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:41,610
Speaker 1: you are any kind of antiquities nerd or just someone

489
00:23:41,650 --> 00:23:45,850
Speaker 1: who values an improved understanding of our shared human cultural heritage. Quote,

490
00:23:46,250 --> 00:23:51,369
Speaker 1: their pickaxes and shovels obliterated history. In his diary, Schliemann wrote, Unfortunately,

491
00:23:51,410 --> 00:23:54,090
Speaker 1: we are obliged to destroy the foundations of a building

492
00:23:54,090 --> 00:23:57,640
Speaker 1: 59 feet long and 43 feet broad. If it wasn't

493
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,780
Speaker 1: Homer's Troy, he wasn't interested. At 30 feet, they struck

494
00:24:00,820 --> 00:24:03,640
Speaker 1: and shattered more pottery, tools, and weapons. But it wasn't

495
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,930
Speaker 1: Homer's Troy. Schliemann kept digging. And it's entirely possible those

496
00:24:08,010 --> 00:24:11,010
Speaker 1: rumen weapons he tossed out were dated to the Trojan War.

497
00:24:11,050 --> 00:24:13,970
Speaker 1: It's possible that building he destroyed was from that era, right?

498
00:24:14,890 --> 00:24:17,250
Speaker 1: Some of the pottery and tools that he's running through

499
00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:21,580
Speaker 1: certainly did. We'll never know. As Heinrich urged his diggers on,

500
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 1: sickness and plague descended upon the camp. They called it

501
00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:27,530
Speaker 1: the marsh sickness, likely malaria, and it brought many of

502
00:24:27,570 --> 00:24:30,850
Speaker 1: his workers low. There were also constant scorpion attacks and

503
00:24:30,869 --> 00:24:34,149
Speaker 1: a major problem with venomous snakes. In Digging for Troy,

504
00:24:34,710 --> 00:24:36,869
Speaker 1: the authors write, Schliemann was sure the site would have

505
00:24:36,890 --> 00:24:39,830
Speaker 1: been unworkable if the storks hadn't eaten most of the snakes.

506
00:24:40,859 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: Thank God the storks ate the snakes. The storks ate

507
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: the snakes. We'd have really been screwed otherwise.

508
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 3: I didn't even know storks ate snakes.

509
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:51,010
Speaker 4: Neither.

510
00:24:51,030 --> 00:24:52,310
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it makes sense.

511
00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:52,670
Speaker 4: Sure.

512
00:24:52,690 --> 00:24:54,690
Speaker 3: I just thought they brought babies, you know.

513
00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:57,850
Speaker 1: That's all I had been taught. Well, maybe the babies

514
00:24:57,910 --> 00:25:00,350
Speaker 1: are snakes, just like Frank Zappa was trying to tell us.

515
00:25:01,020 --> 00:25:04,100
Speaker 1: So by June of 1872, they had reached a network

516
00:25:04,140 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: of walls that we now know represent several cities built

517
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,530
Speaker 1: over each other over a long period of time. And

518
00:25:09,570 --> 00:25:13,189
Speaker 1: he mistakes them for giant walls, right? On June 18th,

519
00:25:13,210 --> 00:25:15,650
Speaker 1: he writes in his diary, I am among the ruins

520
00:25:15,690 --> 00:25:19,449
Speaker 1: of Homeric Troy, which he'd, of course, just annihilated. But

521
00:25:19,510 --> 00:25:21,790
Speaker 1: by one of these walls, he finds a gate. And

522
00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:24,730
Speaker 1: behind that gate, there's a building. And he declares this building,

523
00:25:24,830 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 1: with no evidence, had been the legendary King Priam's palace, right?

524
00:25:30,260 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: There's no reason to think this. It's just the biggest

525
00:25:32,619 --> 00:25:38,100
Speaker 1: building he's found. Further discoveries followed as Rubalcaba and Klein write, quote,

526
00:25:38,940 --> 00:25:41,460
Speaker 1: Schliemann claimed to have unearthed parts of a soldier's helmet,

527
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 1: which turned out to be the pieces of a smashed

528
00:25:43,220 --> 00:25:45,859
Speaker 1: bronze vase. He had identified a shield, which turned out

529
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,179
Speaker 1: to be a pan with its handle broken off. For

530
00:25:48,220 --> 00:25:50,780
Speaker 1: an idea of, like, how accurate he is, ah, this

531
00:25:50,820 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: must have been Achilles' shield. It's like a fucking cooking pan.

532
00:25:55,590 --> 00:25:55,669
Speaker 3: Um.

533
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: Heinrich and his boys kept digging until, finally, at the

534
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:04,300
Speaker 1: very end of May 1873, they found honest-to-goodness bonafide treasure.

535
00:26:04,740 --> 00:26:08,470
Speaker 1: He would write later of this legendary find. Quote, I

536
00:26:08,510 --> 00:26:11,510
Speaker 1: came across a large copper object of the most remarkable shape,

537
00:26:11,550 --> 00:26:13,650
Speaker 1: which attracted my attention all the more as I thought

538
00:26:13,690 --> 00:26:16,010
Speaker 1: I saw gold behind it. I cut out the treasure

539
00:26:16,030 --> 00:26:18,449
Speaker 1: with a large knife. It was impossible to do this

540
00:26:18,490 --> 00:26:21,150
Speaker 1: without the most strenuous exertions and the most fearful risk

541
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:23,780
Speaker 1: to my life, for the large fortifications wall, which I

542
00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:26,530
Speaker 1: had to undermine— threatened at every moment to fall down

543
00:26:26,609 --> 00:26:28,770
Speaker 1: on me. But the sight of so many objects, each

544
00:26:28,850 --> 00:26:31,469
Speaker 1: one of which is of inestimable value for science, may

545
00:26:31,510 --> 00:26:34,409
Speaker 1: be foolhardy and have no thought of danger. The removal

546
00:26:34,450 --> 00:26:36,450
Speaker 1: of the treasure, however, would have been impossible without the

547
00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:38,350
Speaker 1: help of my dear wife, who stood always ready to

548
00:26:38,390 --> 00:26:40,389
Speaker 1: pack in her shawl and carry away the objects I

549
00:26:40,430 --> 00:26:42,930
Speaker 1: cut out. And I love he's like, these are so

550
00:26:42,990 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 1: valuable to science. As he's destroying the building they're located in,

551
00:26:46,930 --> 00:26:49,140
Speaker 1: making it impossible for us to have a clear idea

552
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:54,250
Speaker 1: of like, where was this stuff from? What was its context?

553
00:26:54,550 --> 00:26:57,810
Speaker 1: What does this relate to? He's ruining all of that

554
00:26:57,869 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: because he just wants the gold, right? It's cool looking.

555
00:27:03,020 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: This find yields up a haul of gold and silver,

556
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: cups and dishes, as well as some bronze weapons, gold beads,

557
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: and a bunch of jewelry. Now, these had been made

558
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,139
Speaker 1: by people who lived centuries before the famous Trojans, but

559
00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:19,270
Speaker 1: Heinrich declared the jewelry to have belonged to Helen of Troy.

560
00:27:19,290 --> 00:27:22,950
Speaker 1: He declared the whole find Priam's treasure, which I'm sure

561
00:27:22,970 --> 00:27:24,659
Speaker 1: would have been looted during the actual war, but I

562
00:27:24,660 --> 00:27:28,010
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe Agamemnon missed some shit. Because the.

563
00:27:28,820 --> 00:27:29,300
Speaker 3: I guess.

564
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:34,140
Speaker 1: Like Helen's jewels. Didn't look for that. Because the valuable

565
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,580
Speaker 1: stuff had been in a small area, he declared it

566
00:27:36,619 --> 00:27:38,699
Speaker 1: had all been stored in a treasure chest that had

567
00:27:38,780 --> 00:27:41,420
Speaker 1: rotted away with the ages. He found a random piece

568
00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: of metal nearby and said, this was the key. He

569
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,460
Speaker 1: wrote up his findings to present them to the archaeological world,

570
00:27:47,500 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: and he wove this grand story about as the invaders

571
00:27:50,859 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: are cutting through the city, the Trojan royal family is

572
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: gathering their valuables, desperately throwing them into bags as they

573
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,620
Speaker 1: flee the invading Greeks. and his findings did land like

574
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,290
Speaker 1: a bomb in the European archaeological community. To buttress his

575
00:28:03,369 --> 00:28:06,109
Speaker 1: claims that he'd found the jewels of Helen of Troy,

576
00:28:06,350 --> 00:28:09,649
Speaker 1: he had his thankfully no longer teenaged Greek bride dress

577
00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:11,590
Speaker 1: up in them for publicity photos. And I gotta say,

578
00:28:11,630 --> 00:28:15,429
Speaker 1: she does look pretty good. Solid jewelry, you know?

579
00:28:15,810 --> 00:28:16,169
Speaker 3: Chic.

580
00:28:16,869 --> 00:28:21,889
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, very nice. Heinrich was instantly catapulted into the

581
00:28:21,930 --> 00:28:25,430
Speaker 1: ranks of the very most famous archaeologists alive. He wrote

582
00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:28,770
Speaker 1: articles and books about his findings. but the notoriety carried

583
00:28:28,790 --> 00:28:32,510
Speaker 1: with it some problems. Notably, the Ottoman government was not

584
00:28:32,670 --> 00:28:35,270
Speaker 1: happy when he publicized what he'd done to their ruins,

585
00:28:35,290 --> 00:28:37,690
Speaker 1: because they didn't really know he was there. And he's like, yeah,

586
00:28:37,710 --> 00:28:39,740
Speaker 1: I just tore through a bunch of your shit, found

587
00:28:39,780 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: some gold, took it out of the country, took all

588
00:28:42,540 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: these priceless antique artifacts with me, by the way. Per

589
00:28:47,020 --> 00:28:50,370
Speaker 1: an article in Smithsonian Magazine by Malin Soli, quote, when

590
00:28:50,380 --> 00:28:53,750
Speaker 1: Turkish authorities realized that Schliemann had smuggled the so-called Priam's

591
00:28:53,790 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: treasure out of the country, They mounted a legal case

592
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,660
Speaker 1: against him, demanding the return of the looted artifacts and

593
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: temporarily barring him from returning to the dig site. In

594
00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:04,930
Speaker 1: the interim, the amateur archaeologist turned his attention to another

595
00:29:05,030 --> 00:29:09,070
Speaker 1: mythical ruler, Agamemnon, king of Mycenae and the brother of Menelaus.

596
00:29:09,610 --> 00:29:14,050
Speaker 1: Conducting excavations at Mycenae in 1876, Schliemann discovered a stunning

597
00:29:14,110 --> 00:29:17,570
Speaker 1: gold funeral mask he believed was buried with Agamemnon. More

598
00:29:17,630 --> 00:29:20,330
Speaker 1: recent research has refuted this connection, indicating that the mask

599
00:29:20,370 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: was created around 300 years after Agamemnon's lifetime and might

600
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 1: even be a modern forgery. And this is, I've seen

601
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:28,660
Speaker 1: this when I was in Athens at the museum there.

602
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,900
Speaker 1: It's Agamemnon's death mask. We'll have a, we'll put up

603
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,270
Speaker 1: an image of it here. It's one of those famous artifacts, though,

604
00:29:34,510 --> 00:29:38,070
Speaker 1: in the history of archaeology. It's this gold mask of

605
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:41,550
Speaker 1: a dead guy's face, right? And it's a really pretty

606
00:29:41,630 --> 00:29:47,470
Speaker 1: striking-looking artifact. We don't know if it's legitimate or not, right?

607
00:29:47,540 --> 00:29:49,910
Speaker 1: There is a lot of debate about that. We definitely

608
00:29:49,930 --> 00:29:53,740
Speaker 1: know it was not Agamemnon's. Nobody's arguing that. Experts have

609
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,170
Speaker 1: pointed out that the mask looks very suspiciously different. from

610
00:29:58,290 --> 00:30:01,229
Speaker 1: every other Mycenaean mask we've ever found from like that

611
00:30:01,290 --> 00:30:04,390
Speaker 1: period of time in that area. And that's brought up

612
00:30:04,690 --> 00:30:08,230
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable question. Did Schliemann forge or have someone else

613
00:30:08,290 --> 00:30:12,190
Speaker 1: forge the mask? We know he talked about forging things

614
00:30:12,350 --> 00:30:15,870
Speaker 1: at times. I found that article in the Journal of Archaeology,

615
00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:18,210
Speaker 1: which is the Journal of the Archaeological Institute of America,

616
00:30:19,190 --> 00:30:22,100
Speaker 1: which kind of collects a bunch of the different suspicions

617
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,709
Speaker 1: people have about some of Schliemann's findings, including some of

618
00:30:24,730 --> 00:30:27,190
Speaker 1: the Helen of Troy treasure. It's possible he had a

619
00:30:27,210 --> 00:30:29,830
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff he found at Troy forged too.

620
00:30:30,230 --> 00:30:33,490
Speaker 1: We don't fully know. That article notes, when it appeared

621
00:30:33,530 --> 00:30:35,530
Speaker 1: as though the Ottomans might claim their fair share of

622
00:30:35,550 --> 00:30:38,820
Speaker 1: the treasure, he explored the possibility of having forgeries manufactured

623
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 1: in Paris to give to the Turks. Memoirs of informed

624
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,820
Speaker 1: contemporaries preserve allegations that Schliemann planted finds with the intention

625
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,770
Speaker 1: of later discovering them. Among the skeptics were British scholars, who,

626
00:30:49,790 --> 00:30:54,830
Speaker 1: discussing Schliemann's career, declared, He who hideth can find. Ernst Curtius,

627
00:30:54,910 --> 00:30:57,510
Speaker 1: director of the excavations at Olympia and professor of ancient

628
00:30:57,550 --> 00:31:00,930
Speaker 1: history in Berlin, called him a schwindler und pfuscher, a

629
00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:04,500
Speaker 1: swindler and a con man. So a lot of reputable

630
00:31:04,580 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: archaeologists think that he's lying. Now, they also don't think Troy.

631
00:31:09,540 --> 00:31:11,300
Speaker 1: They generally think that there was no Troy, and we

632
00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: know they were wrong about that. But also, Schliemann talked

633
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:19,220
Speaker 1: about having stuff forged, and... There's some suspicious aspects about

634
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 1: how and when certain things were found. It's notable that

635
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: the Mycenae excavations, where he finds that mask, went on

636
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:29,580
Speaker 1: from August 7th to December 3rd of 1876. And the

637
00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:32,420
Speaker 1: so-called mask was discovered on November 30th. So he finds

638
00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:35,500
Speaker 1: the mask and three days later closes the dig entirely.

639
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: And it's also noteworthy, Heinrich ended his Trojan excavation as

640
00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:42,070
Speaker 1: soon as he found the gold treasure. And that's not

641
00:31:42,090 --> 00:31:44,910
Speaker 1: how like actual archaeology is supposed to work. It's like, oh,

642
00:31:45,270 --> 00:31:46,250
Speaker 1: I found a cool thing. We're done.

643
00:31:46,930 --> 00:31:50,209
Speaker 4: It's like when my dog hides their bone under the

644
00:31:50,250 --> 00:31:52,730
Speaker 4: pillow and then they find it later and they're like.

645
00:31:53,190 --> 00:31:57,150
Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh, how did this get here? I'm so surprised.

646
00:31:57,270 --> 00:31:59,090
Speaker 4: But he's immoral and a piece of crap.

647
00:31:59,610 --> 00:32:03,690
Speaker 1: Yeah. So people debate, did he maybe find different artifacts

648
00:32:03,850 --> 00:32:05,910
Speaker 1: around the site and put them all in one place

649
00:32:05,930 --> 00:32:08,770
Speaker 1: to make a better story? Did he have things forged or?

650
00:32:09,170 --> 00:32:13,150
Speaker 1: Or did he maybe buy antiquities from like a bazaar

651
00:32:13,230 --> 00:32:15,290
Speaker 1: or something and pretend that he dug them up?

652
00:32:15,650 --> 00:32:16,130
Speaker 4: So crazy.

653
00:32:16,300 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 1: We'll never really know.

654
00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

655
00:32:18,940 --> 00:32:20,940
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of like, there's a lot of

656
00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:23,940
Speaker 1: sketchy stuff here. And there was sketchy stuff too about

657
00:32:23,980 --> 00:32:27,740
Speaker 1: his Trojan excavation, right? As the article continues, excavations were

658
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: also closed on November 26th and 27th while Schliemann was away.

659
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 1: Where was he? A relative of his wife, Sophia, is

660
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: alleged to have been an Athenian goldsmith. Did Schliemann obtain

661
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,620
Speaker 1: the mask from Sophia's relative in Athens, then return to

662
00:32:39,660 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: Mycenae and bury it to find it on the 30th?

663
00:32:42,300 --> 00:32:45,540
Speaker 1: We'll never know. There's good reason to wonder, though, right?

664
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,050
Speaker 1: This is still an unsolved archaeological mystery. Most, and by

665
00:32:50,090 --> 00:32:53,090
Speaker 1: the way, I should note, at this point in time,

666
00:32:53,270 --> 00:32:57,270
Speaker 1: the overwhelming, or at least the majority view of reputable

667
00:32:57,310 --> 00:33:00,310
Speaker 1: people is that it is an authentic relic. It was

668
00:33:00,390 --> 00:33:03,729
Speaker 1: probably not a forgery. That's the most common view, that

669
00:33:03,780 --> 00:33:06,220
Speaker 1: the mask is real, but that it has nothing to

670
00:33:06,260 --> 00:33:09,180
Speaker 1: do with the Trojan War or anyone involved with it. Although, again,

671
00:33:09,220 --> 00:33:12,380
Speaker 1: there is still debates here. And there were extreme doubts

672
00:33:12,420 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: about the mask's provenance in Heinrich's life, both from people

673
00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:16,620
Speaker 1: who thought it a forgery and those who argued it

674
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:19,430
Speaker 1: couldn't have belonged to Agamemnon, in part because he did

675
00:33:19,470 --> 00:33:22,370
Speaker 1: not exist, almost certainly. Near the end of his life,

676
00:33:22,430 --> 00:33:25,390
Speaker 1: Heinrich did sort of accept this by saying, so this

677
00:33:25,450 --> 00:33:27,990
Speaker 1: is not Agamemnon. These are not his ornaments. All right,

678
00:33:28,110 --> 00:33:31,650
Speaker 1: let's call him Schultz. Right? I don't care whose it is.

679
00:33:31,710 --> 00:33:32,710
Speaker 1: It's a great artifact.

680
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:33,700
Speaker 3: I'm famous.

681
00:33:33,780 --> 00:33:34,580
Speaker 1: It's fine.

682
00:33:35,340 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

683
00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 1: If maybe you'd done a better job as an archaeologist,

684
00:33:37,780 --> 00:33:39,260
Speaker 1: we might have found out who it was.

685
00:33:39,460 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

686
00:33:40,030 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: But Shlemy doesn't care about the truth. He cares about

687
00:33:42,150 --> 00:33:44,580
Speaker 1: finding shiny things, as that makes clear. And you know

688
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,620
Speaker 1: who else likes shiny things? Sponsors of this podcast. They

689
00:33:48,660 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: love them.

690
00:33:49,540 --> 00:33:50,020
Speaker 4: So true.

691
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:00,710
Speaker 1: And we're back. During the height of Heinrich's active time

692
00:34:00,750 --> 00:34:02,850
Speaker 1: in the field as an archaeologist, he was known to

693
00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:05,709
Speaker 1: react with fury and venom to anyone who questioned him.

694
00:34:05,990 --> 00:34:08,340
Speaker 1: This is just his normal life. A lot of passages

695
00:34:08,390 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 1: from Leo Duell's book make him sound kind of like

696
00:34:10,420 --> 00:34:14,420
Speaker 1: Elon Musk, including this one. Quote, his relations with even

697
00:34:14,460 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 1: his closest friends and associates remained stormy. At one time

698
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,780
Speaker 1: or another, he fell out with all of them. Touchy

699
00:34:19,820 --> 00:34:21,890
Speaker 1: to the verge of paranoia, he took offense on the

700
00:34:21,950 --> 00:34:25,690
Speaker 1: slightest provocation. The mildest criticism of his books and excavation

701
00:34:25,710 --> 00:34:28,580
Speaker 1: results incensed him. Any disagreement he would take is a

702
00:34:28,620 --> 00:34:32,620
Speaker 1: personal affront. Now, I should also note that despite the

703
00:34:32,660 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 1: fact that he partners with Frank Calvert and is digging

704
00:34:35,219 --> 00:34:37,000
Speaker 1: on his land and Frank is the guy who told

705
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,910
Speaker 1: him where Troy was, Heinrich doesn't mention Frank at all

706
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,009
Speaker 1: in any of his accounts of the story. He cuts

707
00:34:43,070 --> 00:34:46,250
Speaker 1: him out entirely in the story of the discovery of Troy.

708
00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:48,930
Speaker 1: He leaves his name out of letters and articles. He

709
00:34:48,950 --> 00:34:51,290
Speaker 1: writes about their shared findings and he will work with

710
00:34:51,410 --> 00:34:54,299
Speaker 1: other archaeologists and anytime he works with someone else, he

711
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: cuts them out of the story. He constantly does this.

712
00:34:57,790 --> 00:35:01,110
Speaker 1: As Leo Duo writes, Schliemann took from others liberally, but

713
00:35:01,150 --> 00:35:03,550
Speaker 1: in essentials claimed credit for himself. In the end, it

714
00:35:03,590 --> 00:35:05,739
Speaker 1: was always he who would discover the site of Troy,

715
00:35:06,020 --> 00:35:08,740
Speaker 1: the Magara longhouses of the second city or the relief

716
00:35:08,780 --> 00:35:12,259
Speaker 1: ceiling of Orkomenos. In order to magnify his accomplishments, he

717
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: would play down the contributions of others and enlarge on

718
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,870
Speaker 1: what he considered their errors. The decisive role of Frank Calvert,

719
00:35:17,890 --> 00:35:19,690
Speaker 1: who had not only dug at his Sarlacc Troy, but

720
00:35:19,830 --> 00:35:22,110
Speaker 1: owned half of the tell in leading Schliemann to the

721
00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:25,009
Speaker 1: site in the first place was never clearly acknowledged. Even

722
00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:27,610
Speaker 1: his wife, Sophia is active part in excavation discovery. He

723
00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:31,489
Speaker 1: tended to sweep or leave entirely unmentioned, even cutting his

724
00:35:31,530 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 1: wife out of it for the most part.

725
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: Wait, so did Calvert get anything? I mean, he didn't

726
00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:37,939
Speaker 2: get the acknowledgement, but did he get like.

727
00:35:38,340 --> 00:35:38,700
Speaker 1: He does.

728
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:39,500
Speaker 3: Yeah.

729
00:35:39,540 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: He gets some of the, he gets some money and

730
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:42,510
Speaker 1: stuff for it. I think. Cause he does own like

731
00:35:42,550 --> 00:35:45,069
Speaker 1: half of the fine technically, but I couldn't tell you

732
00:35:45,090 --> 00:35:47,469
Speaker 1: exactly how things financially work out, but obviously we know

733
00:35:47,530 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: about Calvert. Now it does come out. Um, He continues

734
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,510
Speaker 1: digging and returns to Troy after working out an arrangement

735
00:35:54,530 --> 00:35:56,969
Speaker 1: with the Ottomans to hand back a few of the

736
00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:00,069
Speaker 1: less valuable artifacts that he'd found to them. And by

737
00:36:00,110 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: the way, all these artifacts today are in Russia because, again,

738
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: they wind up in Germany and then the Russians take them.

739
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,460
Speaker 1: And so there's both Germany keeps asking Russia for the

740
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:11,500
Speaker 1: artifacts back and Turkey keeps asking Russia for the artifacts back.

741
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,810
Speaker 1: And I got to say, Germany, these aren't yours. Guys,

742
00:36:15,290 --> 00:36:18,430
Speaker 1: you have no claim to these fucking things. Like, I'll

743
00:36:18,469 --> 00:36:20,870
Speaker 1: listen to Russia's claim because of the war a little bit.

744
00:36:21,110 --> 00:36:25,989
Speaker 1: They should be in Turkey, right? You know? Certainly not

745
00:36:26,050 --> 00:36:28,390
Speaker 1: in Germany. We can all agree wherever they don't belong,

746
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:33,660
Speaker 1: it's fucking Germany. So Leo's book makes a really interesting

747
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,020
Speaker 1: point about the way in which Heinrich conducted his digs

748
00:36:38,060 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: and how he decided like where to tear through and

749
00:36:40,380 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: what to do, which is that he treated excavating relics

750
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: like a venture capitalist treats investment, right? It's a very

751
00:36:46,540 --> 00:36:51,129
Speaker 1: capitalist attitude towards archaeology. During his archaeological phase, he never

752
00:36:51,230 --> 00:36:53,489
Speaker 1: ceased to look after his investments and he remained active

753
00:36:53,510 --> 00:36:56,469
Speaker 1: in real estate and securities transactions until his last days

754
00:36:56,510 --> 00:36:59,650
Speaker 1: he busied himself with building schemes in Athens. His excavating,

755
00:36:59,690 --> 00:37:02,590
Speaker 1: at least in the beginning, was haphazard and reckless. reminiscent

756
00:37:02,610 --> 00:37:07,209
Speaker 1: of speculations that rested on shrewd intuitions like trading and commodities, right?

757
00:37:07,810 --> 00:37:11,980
Speaker 1: He does everything that way, including like dig through priceless relics.

758
00:37:12,380 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: Well, and you mentioned too, like on the dig, what

759
00:37:15,219 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 2: he was, yes, he was drawing some things from memory

760
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,340
Speaker 2: at night, but he was also just like in the books.

761
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,460
Speaker 3: You know, like paying attention to the money.

762
00:37:23,660 --> 00:37:25,660
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was too upset. How much am I spending?

763
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:27,739
Speaker 1: What's the cost, right? As opposed to what am I

764
00:37:27,780 --> 00:37:30,549
Speaker 1: digging up and where was it found? Yeah, we know

765
00:37:30,650 --> 00:37:33,219
Speaker 1: more about, like, what he spent to make this happen

766
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,660
Speaker 1: than we do about where certain artifacts really came from.

767
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,620
Speaker 1: He made his return trip to Troy on March 1st, 1882.

768
00:37:39,620 --> 00:37:43,649
Speaker 1: Heinrich was sensitive to the by now many complaints made

769
00:37:43,690 --> 00:37:46,150
Speaker 1: by the archaeological community in his own day that he

770
00:37:46,190 --> 00:37:49,710
Speaker 1: was a brute, destroying actual history in his almost blind

771
00:37:49,830 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: quest to declare random shit untrue. trojan war relics and

772
00:37:52,940 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: that's important you'll hear periodically people say like well everyone

773
00:37:56,980 --> 00:37:59,570
Speaker 1: in heinrich's day was kind of that reckless of an

774
00:37:59,630 --> 00:38:03,710
Speaker 1: archaeologist and they weren't the mainstream opinion at the time

775
00:38:03,770 --> 00:38:08,509
Speaker 1: is that he is a fucking destructive force right um

776
00:38:09,130 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: he does hire real archaeologists for this dig thankfully he

777
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,140
Speaker 1: brings a guy named wilhelm dorpfeld who's a very diligent

778
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: scholar and expert archaeologist with him on this next dig

779
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,340
Speaker 1: to troy And Dorpfeld sets to work trying to figure

780
00:38:22,460 --> 00:38:25,910
Speaker 1: out what's happening in this disastrous dig site Heinrich left

781
00:38:25,969 --> 00:38:29,730
Speaker 1: behind years earlier. Because he immediately realizes, oh, my God,

782
00:38:29,969 --> 00:38:32,710
Speaker 1: you have torn through thousands of years of history and

783
00:38:32,730 --> 00:38:35,750
Speaker 1: just tossed it in the trash. I have, like, if

784
00:38:35,989 --> 00:38:38,220
Speaker 1: I can maybe undo some of this damage, but it's

785
00:38:38,260 --> 00:38:39,620
Speaker 1: going to be the work of the rest of my

786
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: life to unfuck what you fucked up here in the

787
00:38:42,940 --> 00:38:43,860
Speaker 1: slightest amount.

788
00:38:44,340 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

789
00:38:45,469 --> 00:38:47,790
Speaker 1: One thing Dorpfeld finds is that there were very large

790
00:38:47,850 --> 00:38:50,770
Speaker 1: buildings in the lair that Heinrich had declared Troy. And

791
00:38:50,870 --> 00:38:53,910
Speaker 1: as they uncovered them, Wilhelm warns Heinrich not to draw

792
00:38:54,010 --> 00:38:57,140
Speaker 1: conclusions about what they're finding until they have more information.

793
00:38:57,580 --> 00:39:00,140
Speaker 1: And Heinrich ignores that and starts darting off letters being like,

794
00:39:00,180 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: I found King Priam's bedchamber and the like. He leaves

795
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: Dorpfeld out of the findings entirely, does not mention this guy.

796
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: By 1883, Schliemann is done digging and convinced he's done

797
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: enough to prove his theories correct. He's such a dick.

798
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: He's a huge prick. Once he returns to Europe, though,

799
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,430
Speaker 1: his claims are met with a wall of professional skepticism.

800
00:39:21,469 --> 00:39:25,010
Speaker 1: People are like, yeah, man, nothing you've done has proved

801
00:39:25,050 --> 00:39:25,790
Speaker 1: that it's Troy.

802
00:39:25,810 --> 00:39:27,290
Speaker 3: Yeah, this guy again.

803
00:39:27,310 --> 00:39:30,950
Speaker 1: Yeah, like it certainly hasn't proved these things. relics belong

804
00:39:30,969 --> 00:39:33,350
Speaker 1: to King Braham or anything. And there's a lot of

805
00:39:33,370 --> 00:39:35,469
Speaker 1: people who think he hasn't done anything of significance. Like

806
00:39:35,489 --> 00:39:38,530
Speaker 1: he uncovered like a crematoria for an old royal family

807
00:39:38,570 --> 00:39:40,310
Speaker 1: at some point is kind of what a lot of

808
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: folks assume. Over the next years, he tried to enjoy

809
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,660
Speaker 1: his money and pretend he wasn't bothered by any of this.

810
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: But by March 1st of 1890, Heinrich had grown so

811
00:39:50,140 --> 00:39:53,779
Speaker 1: frustrated with what he considered a character assassination campaign that

812
00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: he returned to Troy. And his goal was to find

813
00:39:56,140 --> 00:39:59,490
Speaker 1: the royal cemetery. because his doubters were claiming the palace

814
00:39:59,510 --> 00:40:02,140
Speaker 1: he'd found was just a crematoria for the dead, and

815
00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,610
Speaker 1: he was like, well, if I find the real royal graveyard,

816
00:40:04,660 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 1: that will prove there was no crematoria, and then they'll

817
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:09,739
Speaker 1: have to believe I was right. He has a railroad

818
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: constructed to the site this time, so that he can

819
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: more quickly throw away dirt dug up in this quest.

820
00:40:14,900 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 1: He pays Dortfeld to return. Per the book Digging for Troy, quote,

821
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: Dortfeld saw the newly exposed worksite as an opportunity to

822
00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:25,430
Speaker 1: reassess his Sarlacc, He began a meticulous study of all

823
00:40:25,450 --> 00:40:28,049
Speaker 1: the layers of occupation, not just those levels surrounding what

824
00:40:28,090 --> 00:40:31,060
Speaker 1: Schliemann believed to be Homer's Troy. Schliemann found it difficult

825
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: to be patient with Dorpfeld's systematic approach. The man was

826
00:40:34,140 --> 00:40:37,020
Speaker 1: far too slow for him. But his life's achievement, his legacy,

827
00:40:37,060 --> 00:40:39,219
Speaker 1: was on the line. So he left Dorpfeld to his

828
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,950
Speaker 1: finicky procedures. He's resigned to the fact that I have

829
00:40:42,969 --> 00:40:46,230
Speaker 1: to let an actual archaeologist do actual archaeology here, and

830
00:40:46,290 --> 00:40:48,710
Speaker 1: it will surely prove that I've been right all along,

831
00:40:49,010 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: you know? And Dorkville does puzzle out the different layers

832
00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:55,359
Speaker 1: of Troy. He's the first guy to start doing this.

833
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: And he comes to understand that Troy I, the earliest settlement,

834
00:40:59,260 --> 00:41:01,870
Speaker 1: had been founded at the very start of the Bronze Age.

835
00:41:02,250 --> 00:41:05,629
Speaker 1: The last layer, the top layer, Troy IX, had been

836
00:41:05,650 --> 00:41:09,970
Speaker 1: constructed some 3,500 years later. So there's almost 4,000 years

837
00:41:10,030 --> 00:41:14,210
Speaker 1: of history in this mound. At long last, someone competent

838
00:41:14,330 --> 00:41:19,610
Speaker 1: had begun the still- Turkish archaeologists are today still undoing

839
00:41:19,660 --> 00:41:22,540
Speaker 1: the damage that Schliemann done. And they could never undo

840
00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:26,779
Speaker 1: it all the way, right? But he, Dorpfeld, starts the process.

841
00:41:27,660 --> 00:41:30,919
Speaker 1: And for this last, vanishingly brief part of his life,

842
00:41:31,219 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: we can truly say that Heinrich contributed to real, meaningful archaeology,

843
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: and that he paid Dorpfeld to do some real, meaningful archaeology.

844
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,009
Speaker 1: During Christmas of that year, 1890, Schliemann left Dorpfeld to

845
00:41:44,070 --> 00:41:46,630
Speaker 1: sort through their findings and went on vacation to Naples.

846
00:41:46,989 --> 00:41:48,989
Speaker 1: He came down with an ear infection that wore at

847
00:41:49,030 --> 00:41:51,069
Speaker 1: him throughout his trip, and then one day, on his

848
00:41:51,090 --> 00:41:53,730
Speaker 1: way back to his hotel, he had a stroke. Heinrich

849
00:41:53,750 --> 00:41:56,109
Speaker 1: was taken to a hospital where he died the following day,

850
00:41:56,410 --> 00:42:00,129
Speaker 1: December 26th, 1890, in Naples. And he's fucking dead now,

851
00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:00,730
Speaker 1: thank goodness.

852
00:42:00,770 --> 00:42:01,570
Speaker 3: Merry Christmas!

853
00:42:02,590 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, Merry Christmas, everybody. Heinrich Schliemann did eventually die. All right.

854
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,379
Speaker 1: And that's our story. That's all I got.

855
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 2: Yeah.

856
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: It's worth, again, there's some good articles you can find

857
00:42:13,739 --> 00:42:17,180
Speaker 1: about the Turkish archaeologist kind of undoing his damage and

858
00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:19,290
Speaker 1: all of the work that has been done to actually

859
00:42:19,330 --> 00:42:22,029
Speaker 1: figure out what was really going on at these sites.

860
00:42:22,070 --> 00:42:25,750
Speaker 1: He declared, you know, Troy, where Troy was. But yeah,

861
00:42:26,210 --> 00:42:27,690
Speaker 1: you know, that's the Heinrich Schliemann story.

862
00:42:27,790 --> 00:42:32,020
Speaker 2: Do we know if his, the young child bride, Sophia,

863
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 2: if she continued in archaeology as well?

864
00:42:36,450 --> 00:42:36,969
Speaker 3: After he died.

865
00:42:36,989 --> 00:42:38,989
Speaker 1: I don't think she did. I think she continued to

866
00:42:39,050 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: be a rich lady for the rest of her life, though.

867
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:41,620
Speaker 3: Yeah.

868
00:42:42,219 --> 00:42:43,340
Speaker 1: So good for Sophia.

869
00:42:44,380 --> 00:42:44,740
Speaker 2: Wow.

870
00:42:45,380 --> 00:42:47,620
Speaker 1: Yeah. I had nothing but sympathy for her. And she

871
00:42:47,660 --> 00:42:50,259
Speaker 1: did look great in those jewels that had nothing to

872
00:42:50,300 --> 00:42:58,190
Speaker 1: do with the Trojan War or Helen of Troy. Absolutely nothing. Well, Kristen,

873
00:42:58,210 --> 00:42:59,670
Speaker 1: you want to plug anything before we go out here?

874
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,060
Speaker 3: Sure.

875
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:06,460
Speaker 2: You can listen to my podcast on Ladylike and Conspiracy,

876
00:43:06,540 --> 00:43:07,060
Speaker 2: she wrote.

877
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 3: Just search both of them and find your flavor. Listen

878
00:43:10,980 --> 00:43:11,340
Speaker 3: to both.

879
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:12,459
Speaker 4: Hell yeah.

880
00:43:12,620 --> 00:43:13,100
Speaker 3: That's all.

881
00:43:13,980 --> 00:43:16,739
Speaker 1: Yeah. Check that out. Check out Conspiracy, she wrote. And

882
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 1: check out Kristen. I'm sure we'll have you back on

883
00:43:20,380 --> 00:43:22,919
Speaker 1: the show before too much longer, Kristen Conger. But thank

884
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: you for talking about some archaeology bastards with us. And

885
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,810
Speaker 1: I hope everyone listening enjoyed enjoyed getting a break from horrific,

886
00:43:29,950 --> 00:43:34,210
Speaker 1: nightmarish crimes against humanity, and enjoyed just some pretty upsetting

887
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:37,270
Speaker 1: crimes against archaeology. But nobody was murdered.

888
00:43:37,290 --> 00:43:37,969
Speaker 3: Yay!

889
00:43:38,030 --> 00:43:38,770
Speaker 1: So that's good.

890
00:43:38,790 --> 00:43:39,910
Speaker 4: Well, kind of.

891
00:43:40,469 --> 00:43:43,050
Speaker 1: Well, he was a war profiteer, and a bunch of

892
00:43:43,070 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: people did die at the digs, probably.

893
00:43:45,219 --> 00:43:45,660
Speaker 4: Yeah.

894
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 3: What was that, the marsh disease? The marsh sickness?

895
00:43:48,260 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: The marsh disease.

896
00:43:49,420 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 4: Yeah.

897
00:43:50,020 --> 00:43:53,460
Speaker 1: Pretty low body count for a Behind the Bastards episode. Yeah,

898
00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough.

899
00:43:56,010 --> 00:43:57,910
Speaker 3: You're welcome, people.

900
00:43:58,050 --> 00:43:59,110
Speaker 1: You're welcome, everybody.

901
00:43:59,290 --> 00:43:59,630
Speaker 4: Yeah.

902
00:43:59,969 --> 00:44:03,020
Speaker 1: Yeah. Come back next week. We'll probably have something heartbreaking.

903
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 4: Bye. Behind the Bastards is a production of Cool Zone Media.

904
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 4: For more from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.

905
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,190
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906
00:44:17,370 --> 00:44:20,870
Speaker 4: or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes of

907
00:44:20,910 --> 00:44:23,649
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards are now streaming on Netflix, dropping every

908
00:44:23,710 --> 00:44:26,319
Speaker 4: Tuesday and Thursday. hit Remind Me on Netflix so you

909
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,820
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910
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:33,790
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911
00:44:33,850 --> 00:44:38,550
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