Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. When you consider the life and
Speaker 1: work of my guest today, you would be forgiven for
Speaker 1: thinking it was all a work of fiction. Egene Carroll
Speaker 1: has lived a life of drama and intrigue that any
Speaker 1: actor would aspire to play on television. Known for writing
Speaker 1: one of the longest running advice columns in American publishing,
Speaker 1: Carol advised readers of L magazine from nineteen ninety three
Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen in her Asked Egene column. During that time,
Speaker 1: she wrote several books, including two thousand and four's Mister Wright,
Speaker 1: Right Now, How a Smart Woman Can Land Her Dream Man.
Speaker 1: In six weeks after ending her advice column in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: Carrol's work as an author changed dramatically. In her fifth book,
Speaker 1: titled What do We Need Men For a Modest Proposal,
Speaker 1: Carol accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her in the
Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties. A follow up was released in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five, entitled Not My Type. One Woman Versus a President.
Speaker 1: Carol's decision to come forward with her story culminated with
Speaker 1: her winning multiple civil cases against Donald Trump and being
Speaker 1: awarded eighty three point three million dollars in damages. Apart
Speaker 1: from her victories in court, Carol's writing career includes work
Speaker 1: published in New York magazine, Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, Esquire,
Speaker 1: and Outside Magazine. With such an illustrious writing career, I
Speaker 1: was curious if Egene started out as an avid reader.
Speaker 2: Well, I never picked up a book when I was young.
Speaker 2: My whole thing was to be outside and play. My
Speaker 2: parents could not force me to pick up a book,
Speaker 2: could not force me. My mother would yell when I
Speaker 2: came home from the first grade because my grades were
Speaker 2: so bad. Words didn't interest me, you know, caterpillars interested
Speaker 2: in me. Sheep interested me, right, Grass I grew up.
Speaker 2: It was a nineteenth century Queen Anne red brick schoolhouse
Speaker 2: in the middle of the sticks, behind the sticks in
Speaker 2: the hills of Indiana.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: Oh, it was exquisite. And my parents, my young parents,
Speaker 2: were full of beans, and they bought this shambling old
Speaker 2: schoolhouse and remodeled it and we moved in. And across
Speaker 2: the street was the old church, and across the street
Speaker 2: from that was the graveyard. That was my childhood. Oh, Alec,
Speaker 2: it was boot Collic and so my mother would open
Speaker 2: the front door and I would run out, and that
Speaker 2: would be that would be it for the day. I
Speaker 2: would be outside, Alexai, you didn't have to look. I mean,
Speaker 2: just picture this. You open your front door and to
Speaker 2: tell the kid to go outside. You'll see him at
Speaker 2: dinner time. That's how safe, That's how far back in
Speaker 2: the country were and how safe we were. And I
Speaker 2: only had my dog for my companion. That then I'd
Speaker 2: come back for lunch, and then I leave again by myself.
Speaker 1: And when does this take hold of you? This idea
Speaker 1: you were writing when you were very young, I understand.
Speaker 2: Well, at the age of twelve, my father came home.
Speaker 2: He handed my mother something. My mother began screaming and
Speaker 2: ran out the door, ran up and down the street.
Speaker 2: Now we had moved into the colossal Fort Wayne, Indiana,
Speaker 2: and so we had neighbors. So she ran up and
Speaker 2: down the street, yelling with excitement, so thrilled what her
Speaker 2: husband had given her. I thought, what the hell is
Speaker 2: going on? What had happened? Is he in Time magazine?
Speaker 2: He had had a letter published to the editor, And
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, this is the sighting. This is what
Speaker 2: happens when you get published in a magazine. So I
Speaker 2: thought this is good. So I sent off my first
Speaker 2: pitch at the age of twelve to the series and
Speaker 2: Roebuck Catalog.
Speaker 1: What was the pitch?
Speaker 2: Oh, a story idea about a little girl who cut
Speaker 2: out all the clothes in the series and Roebuck Catalog,
Speaker 2: and everything she cut out became real and she got
Speaker 2: to wear the clothes, so.
Speaker 1: She wanted to go shopping. She didn't go to the
Speaker 1: catalog to order things. She just materialized them from the
Speaker 1: images in the captin.
Speaker 2: That's exactly I love that. Oh, they turned it down.
Speaker 1: They turned it down.
Speaker 2: So but I saw the light. I saw that writing
Speaker 2: something and having it published caused a great to do,
Speaker 2: and it looked like it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: I mean, when you see your own mother tearing out
Speaker 2: into the street to show the neighbors, yelling and laughing
Speaker 2: about this great thing that happened and what it was.
Speaker 2: It was something that was published in a magazine. It
Speaker 2: really lit up my brain.
Speaker 1: Now, when you're riding and you first get to New York.
Speaker 1: To come to New York, when.
Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty one, eighty one, I came here to take
Speaker 2: fran Lubowitz camping, for Outside Magazine. Can you imagine taking
Speaker 2: fran Lubowitz camping?
Speaker 1: No, I can't.
Speaker 2: I can't putting her into a tent.
Speaker 1: No. When I saw that in the documentary, Mike God,
Speaker 1: I almost gagged. I thought, that's brilliant.
Speaker 2: Oh God, Jesus, I know. So I just took a
Speaker 2: look around New York and said Jesus, and never went
Speaker 2: back to Well. I went back to Montana to pack
Speaker 2: up and say goodbye to the old husband, and then
Speaker 2: came to New York.
Speaker 1: We're in Montana, were you?
Speaker 2: Oh? Ennis, fly fishing capital of the world.
Speaker 1: That's where he wanted to deliver. You were into fly fishing.
Speaker 2: He thought he was on his timingway, so he was
Speaker 2: in the fly fishing was unbelievable, I admit, But you know,
Speaker 2: I rode my horse, miss Hot, and he fly fished
Speaker 2: and was a firefighter during the fire season. So and
Speaker 2: then we wanted to be writers. And when we were
Speaker 2: practicing being trying to get into magazines. That was a
Speaker 2: big thing, to get into magazines.
Speaker 1: Did you back in the Montana days were you published?
Speaker 2: We both got He became editor in chief of Outdoor Life,
Speaker 2: and I took Friendly Woods camping. You know, what it's
Speaker 2: like arriving in New York when you're you know, ready
Speaker 2: to go, and you're running up and down the boulevards
Speaker 2: at two in the morning, and it's fact aous. You're
Speaker 2: meeting friends and you're staying up. Remember the brasserie where
Speaker 2: we would go and have coffee at the end of
Speaker 2: the night.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, Cafe Central, all those places, all the
Speaker 1: late night joints. That's all dead now. By the way,
Speaker 1: every he's in bed, you.
Speaker 2: Know, I don't understand it, Dull.
Speaker 1: It's changed. Its changed a lot. Everybody's in bed, they're
Speaker 1: up early, they go jogging.
Speaker 2: Well, you're in bedd okay? Can I ask you so sure?
Speaker 2: When do you do all your reading?
Speaker 1: I would say that I carry reading with me and
Speaker 1: when I have interstitial moments during the day where I'm
Speaker 1: sitting there driving in a car, you know, I want
Speaker 1: to read the New Yorker, I want to read more
Speaker 1: of some book I do that. I find that reading
Speaker 1: at night when I go to sleep is advisable in
Speaker 1: order to get off the tablet. What's the greatest place
Speaker 1: on earth to read? What's your favorite place to read?
Speaker 2: In the kitchen standing up when I'm eating lunch.
Speaker 1: My answer is on an airplane. Oh, airplane to the bet,
Speaker 1: that's what airplanes were built for.
Speaker 2: Well, the airplane is great because nobody can get to
Speaker 2: your next seat.
Speaker 1: Bubble. Oh you put on that, you put that, hell
Speaker 1: those headphones on and on a little shell pan nocturn.
Speaker 2: And start reading It's heaven.
Speaker 1: Now I want to get into your more about your writing,
Speaker 1: which is that where's the place you were writing with,
Speaker 1: whether you were on the staff or not. Who were
Speaker 1: you on the staff with for the longest.
Speaker 2: Well, it's it Saturday Night Live for a half year.
Speaker 2: That was a good staff until Senator the future Senator
Speaker 2: came up behind. He didn't realize how I was there,
Speaker 2: Senator Franklin, and he picked up the sketch that I
Speaker 2: had actress read through, and al frank said, what the
Speaker 2: fuck is this? Why was it read? He didn't realize
Speaker 2: I was there, and you Ali, who I believe has
Speaker 2: made more appearances on Saturday Night Live than anybody in
Speaker 2: the history seventeen times. So you know what a killing
Speaker 2: line that would be to hear As a writer. I
Speaker 2: knew I was doomed, but nothing I wrote at that
Speaker 2: show they thought was funny, not a single word. I
Speaker 2: couldn't nothing dead silence that read through? Can you imagine.
Speaker 1: Dead, painful silent? You were there just for half a year.
Speaker 1: I did not even know that was possible.
Speaker 2: Who knew, right? But Larry David lasted a half year.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Wow, you're a good company, I am.
Speaker 1: But in terms of magazines, you warned us on the
Speaker 1: staff of any magazines.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Esquire right outside l There were some other magazines too,
Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: So why did you decide you want to do the
Speaker 1: TV show?
Speaker 2: Well, who wouldn't want to do a TV show?
Speaker 1: But who told you? Well? Where did the where did
Speaker 1: the impetus come, either from yourself or from someone else
Speaker 1: in your life to step in front of the camera
Speaker 1: and you believed you were camera ready so to speak.
Speaker 2: That was Roger Ailes's decision. Somebody showed him the column,
Speaker 2: the ascgene column, and Rogers decided, well, what did he
Speaker 2: have to lose? I mean, nobody was watching this new
Speaker 2: network he started, which eventually became MSNBC, and he had
Speaker 2: nothing to lose, so he just put me on TV.
Speaker 1: To do live I mean Fox.
Speaker 2: No, this is the new NBC channel that Roger Ailes
Speaker 2: himself created out as nothing, and he just gave me
Speaker 2: a live hour every day on TV. It was you know,
Speaker 2: it was fun.
Speaker 1: Then when you were doing that show, and you're creating
Speaker 1: that show, and you're producing that show. Who helped you
Speaker 1: get that thing rolling? Elke?
Speaker 2: I had no idea what the fuck I was doing.
Speaker 1: You know, you covered it brilliantly.
Speaker 2: I just climbed on the sofa and started jumping up
Speaker 2: and down, because that's it was just to bring an
Speaker 2: advice column alive, because, as you know, an advice column
Speaker 2: has got the hatred and passion and the love and
Speaker 2: the jealousy, has got everything. And I thought, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: everybody's there. So I thought, I, well, you just bring
Speaker 2: that to TV. And I tried. You know, maybe in
Speaker 2: another couple of years I would have calmed down and
Speaker 2: would have had a really good show.
Speaker 1: But did someone discuss with you? Did you tell them
Speaker 1: what kind of show you wanted to do, or did
Speaker 1: they tell you what they expected from you?
Speaker 2: No, Roger said, hey, Egen, go do your show. Here's
Speaker 2: an hour. And so really my thing was to bring
Speaker 2: the advice column alive. Everybody there was a news producer,
Speaker 2: so we sort of stumbled around I didn't even know
Speaker 2: what a producer was. I had no idea. So they,
Speaker 2: of course they would get the guests, and there was
Speaker 2: an entire staff, you know, who begged people to come
Speaker 2: on the show.
Speaker 1: Booking is yeah, you live and die by booking.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. It was a free for all, a free
Speaker 2: for all on that network until it became MSNBC. So
Speaker 2: that's how Roger did it. And then Roger left and
Speaker 2: created the Fox News Juggernaut.
Speaker 1: Now I'm want to read you a quote Bill Toanelli,
Speaker 1: Esquire and Rolling Stone editor said in a nineteen ninety
Speaker 1: nine interview that you are quote institutionally incapable of being uninteresting?
Speaker 1: Is the Egen Carroll show on TV you in real life? Well?
Speaker 1: Did you create the Egen Carrol that stepped in front
Speaker 1: of the camera or was that just you?
Speaker 2: Before I started talking to you today, I was another Egen.
Speaker 2: This is the Egen that I'm talking to Ali. As
Speaker 2: you know, there's an Alec Baldwin that is the Barbara
Speaker 2: Stanwick of his generation does comedy and tragedy. That's you.
Speaker 1: I love that. I'm the Barbara Stanwick.
Speaker 2: Barbara Stanwyck. Nobody played comedy and.
Speaker 1: Tragedy like yeah, all of it. Yeah, she was great.
Speaker 1: So there's the private you and the public you.
Speaker 2: Yes, there we go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a character you play.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that came up during the trial. Tell me how
Speaker 2: how oh the defense of the president tried to take
Speaker 2: every time I made a joke or went to a
Speaker 2: party or said something funny in a col this woman
Speaker 2: couldn't have suffered from the attack. Look how Look how
Speaker 2: Mary and johny she is? That was their case. In
Speaker 2: other words, if you're a woman and and you have
Speaker 2: been attacked, you have to wear a shroud forever, cover
Speaker 2: yourself and sit in a cave and never smile again,
Speaker 2: never have a career again, don't have any friends. God knows,
Speaker 2: you should never go to a party again. They pulled
Speaker 2: out every single party I'd been to, which was like five,
Speaker 2: you know, since their no it was they thought that
Speaker 2: it was sixteen hundreds. It was the sixteen hundreds, you know,
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to smile. What woman's life was to be over?
Speaker 1: Well, now that you bring this up, let me just
Speaker 1: ask you this. This is what's important to me. You have friends,
Speaker 1: like when I live in New York, my friends with
Speaker 1: these Rockefeller Republicans, which is less regulation on my businesses
Speaker 1: and lower taxes, and they don't give a shit about
Speaker 1: anything else. They don't care about same sex marriage, abortion,
Speaker 1: the social issues don't play to them. Now, when you
Speaker 1: went through this whole thing, or many years pass between
Speaker 1: the event and the late nine and you were writing
Speaker 1: your book and then going to court, did you have
Speaker 1: friends of yours that were Republicans who were really really
Speaker 1: disappointed or angry with you.
Speaker 2: My mother was a Republican politician. But you know what,
Speaker 2: and like, I never told her. She was on her deathbed.
Speaker 2: We were all around her when Trump was running and
Speaker 2: all those women came forward. Remember all those women came
Speaker 2: forward after the access So I went to and so
Speaker 2: I never told my mother because I thought it would
Speaker 2: kill her. So she was really Remember I'm from Indiana.
Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends who are Republicans, but
Speaker 2: nobody said anything because they hated Donald Trump for doing it,
Speaker 2: just hated it. They just heard it and they hated it.
Speaker 2: So no, I got slimed by everybody else in the country,
Speaker 2: but not by my Republican friends. No.
Speaker 1: So, well, a lot of years go by and the
Speaker 1: event happens, and then you write the book. Was there
Speaker 1: some pivotal moment when you knew you had to step
Speaker 1: up and do what you wanted to do. Because it
Speaker 1: was almost twenty years later, what was it that made
Speaker 1: you move forward?
Speaker 2: Oh? It was Megan Twoian and Jodi Kantner coming out
Speaker 2: in the New York Times with the Harvey Weinstein story. Really,
Speaker 2: do you remember how that rocked the country? Sure, and
Speaker 2: women stood up. Probably half the women you knew had
Speaker 2: a story, and they suddenly started telling those stories. And
Speaker 2: I thought, oh Jesus, women are talking. Because I'm a
Speaker 2: silent generation woman. I was born during the Second World War,
Speaker 2: so the last thing we would ever do is talk
Speaker 2: about our whole thing was chin up and smile. Wow,
Speaker 2: that was it. We expected a man to be a
Speaker 2: little gravvy and to be a little pushy, and to
Speaker 2: be a honey, honey, honey, and to back you up
Speaker 2: against the wall. That's what it was like going to work. Oh,
Speaker 2: come on, el and Jodie Katner and Megan Toury hit
Speaker 2: the front page of the New York Times, and women,
Speaker 2: well known women. When is Paltrow? You know, they were
Speaker 2: coming forward with stories about Harvey Winston. Brad Pitt stepped up.
Speaker 2: Remember when they told the story where he had called
Speaker 2: Harvey and said, if you dare go near one, that's
Speaker 2: one more time I will kill you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to have seen that. Oh I
Speaker 1: don't see Brad, you know, cuddle with Harvey for a
Speaker 1: little while.
Speaker 2: But anyway, oh man, So they showed me what to do, so.
Speaker 1: I did it. I'm going to see this. Sheila Nevans
Speaker 1: is on the show. I don't respect anybody in this
Speaker 1: business more than Shila Nevans, who single handedly crafts HBO
Speaker 1: documentaries and is the godmother of so many documentaries. And
Speaker 1: she talks to me about a guy, his hands on
Speaker 1: her leg, he's on her knee, his hand's going up
Speaker 1: her dress whatever. And I stopped and I go, what
Speaker 1: did you do? She goes, I slept with him. I go,
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? She goes, no, back then, that's
Speaker 1: what you did if you wanted to get ahead.
Speaker 2: And I thought, God, that's exactly right. And if you didn't,
Speaker 2: you would not get the promotion.
Speaker 1: Right. That's what she said, That's how you got ahead.
Speaker 2: This is why women have never gained a quality because
Speaker 2: of the sexual violence. This is why women have always
Speaker 2: always a little lower than men.
Speaker 1: Always at right on my show.
Speaker 2: Believe me, Oh not in your life. You either believe
Speaker 2: you that.
Speaker 1: Journalist and author Agene Carroll. If you're interested in the
Speaker 1: origins of the me Too movement on Hollywood's reckoning with
Speaker 1: sex and power, check out my conversation with New York
Speaker 1: Times writers Megan Chewey and Jodi Kanter.
Speaker 3: It's really important to remember that there are two categories
Speaker 3: of women essentially that Weinstein allegedly harasses and assaults. One
Speaker 3: of them actresses. The second assistance women who want to
Speaker 3: be producers, right, women who are twenty three years old,
Speaker 3: and they are so excited because they're on there.
Speaker 1: At the bottom of the ladder, very first.
Speaker 3: Day at a company like Mirramax or the Weinstein Company.
Speaker 3: This is going to be their big shot. It's so exciting,
Speaker 3: there's so much potential here. And then boom, Harvey Weinstein
Speaker 3: walks into the room and everything changes. And so this
Speaker 3: is all about the actresses and the assistants.
Speaker 2: Both.
Speaker 3: They're coming into this with with dreams, with ideas, with ambitions,
Speaker 3: with hopes, and he turns those hopes and ambitions against
Speaker 3: the women. And that has to do also with the
Speaker 3: power of the movie. Is the power of this work.
Speaker 3: You know, what is your ticket into this world? And
Speaker 3: how can that? You know, is your desire for entry
Speaker 3: into this world a kind of vulnerability that can then
Speaker 3: be turned against you.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Megan Chewy and
Speaker 1: Jodi Kanter, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After
Speaker 1: the break, Egene Carol talks about publishing her explosive twenty
Speaker 1: nineteen book and who stood by her while so much
Speaker 1: of the general public did not believe her accusations. I'm
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In
Speaker 1: the late nineteen nineties, Egen Carol bumped into Donald Trump
Speaker 1: outside of Bergdorf Goodman in New York City. What started
Speaker 1: as an impromptu shopping trip turned into a harrowing account
Speaker 1: of sexual assault in a department store dressing room. I
Speaker 1: wanted to know how Egene coped with such a traumatic event,
Speaker 1: and what it's like constantly seeing her attacker, who was
Speaker 1: also the President of the United States on television and
Speaker 1: in media.
Speaker 2: You know, seeing him so much, so saturated and everything.
Speaker 2: Either I got the fuck over it and moved on
Speaker 2: and was able to take him, or my life really
Speaker 2: would have been over. I was so immersed in it
Speaker 2: that I became accustomed to it, and then I didn't
Speaker 2: even see it. That's what happens. It becomes it becomes
Speaker 2: not a horrible it becomes something that I lived with.
Speaker 2: You either learn to bat it away or your life
Speaker 2: is over.
Speaker 1: Well, now, before you press charges, before you bring a
Speaker 1: case against him, you write the book. Yeah, but do
Speaker 1: the imprint bulk at that idea of writing that material
Speaker 1: about him? Were they concerned about that at all?
Speaker 2: Legally we had that thing. Every word was gone through
Speaker 2: by one of the great attorneys in the country.
Speaker 1: So they backed you that imprint.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also New York Magazine backed it. That thing
Speaker 2: was fact checked up and down when I when I
Speaker 2: came out with the story, it's remarkable it was in
Speaker 2: the book. But New York Magazine excerpted that was the
Speaker 2: thing that hit the White House. And they saw that
Speaker 2: picture of me on the cover and like without makeup,
Speaker 2: without makeup, and that's when he said, you know, when
Speaker 2: you're seventy five, you don't go on the cover of
Speaker 2: a magazine without makeup. Right. The feeling was, she's when
Speaker 2: a woman tells the truth, she doesn't stand there in
Speaker 2: a gob of makeup, so they put it on the
Speaker 2: cover and there I am an elderly woman, and the
Speaker 2: story came out, and because I looked so old, and
Speaker 2: because I look my age, most people didn't believe me.
Speaker 1: Really didn't believe.
Speaker 2: You didn't believe it. You don't see an old lady
Speaker 2: when she comes forward and talks about what happens being
Speaker 2: attacked by a man. She's not believed Alex unless she
Speaker 2: looks fuckable. She's got to look desirable in some way.
Speaker 2: And they couldn't picture the snazzy, young Donald Trump attacking
Speaker 2: this elderly crone.
Speaker 1: I try to tell myself as I get older, that
Speaker 1: you're fuckable to somebody out there. The task is just
Speaker 1: to find them. Got be somebody, You got me somebody.
Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, do you remember back in the day
Speaker 2: when nobody was better looking than you? Nobody I found them.
Speaker 1: I had a good month. I had a great I
Speaker 1: had one month in the early ninety decades you had
Speaker 1: the early nineties. I had that was good. It was
Speaker 1: a good time.
Speaker 2: Oh it was devastating.
Speaker 1: I got all these questions, none of them have anything
Speaker 1: to do with my sex life.
Speaker 2: I mean devastating devastating.
Speaker 1: Now let me ask you. Let me ask you this
Speaker 1: without naming any names. Of course, there were any friends
Speaker 1: that you relied on heavily. You must have needed good
Speaker 1: friends to help get you through the ups and downs
Speaker 1: of this correct. Oh yeah, Lisa Burnbaugh Lisa who I know?
Speaker 2: Yes, And Carol Martin another you know, she broke the
Speaker 2: glass ceiling of New York. She became the first black
Speaker 2: woman to anchor a New York news show. And Lisa Burnbaugh. Yeah,
Speaker 2: those two steadfast. Everybody at the Atlantic magazine Esquire Elle,
Speaker 2: all the journalists backed me up to the hill. They
Speaker 2: understood it. So yes, my family absolutely, my dogs, yes,
Speaker 2: my neighbors yes. Although oddly Alick, when the last book
Speaker 2: came out and it immediately hit the New York Times
Speaker 2: bestseller lists, I had books and I was handing them
Speaker 2: out to my neighbors, and I handed it to my
Speaker 2: next door neighbor and I said, here's my latest book.
Speaker 2: She said, what you suit? The president? She never heard
Speaker 2: of it. You're kidding me, No, Ali, Almost nobody in
Speaker 2: this country really has heard of it. Just a few
Speaker 2: of us in New York know about it, but most
Speaker 2: people so. One of the reasons why they voted for him.
Speaker 2: They never heard he was held liable for sexual abuse.
Speaker 2: Never heard it, never heard that he had to pay
Speaker 2: eighty three point three million because their Instagram feed is
Speaker 2: not showing them that fact.
Speaker 1: It's interesting.
Speaker 2: I never thought of them, and now there is their
Speaker 2: Facebook feed, and now is their TikTok.
Speaker 1: I never thought about how it was not covered widely
Speaker 1: enough the story. Now, when you started the process to
Speaker 1: bring charges against him, did you have earlier lawyers you
Speaker 1: engaged with or has Robbie been your lawyer throughout?
Speaker 2: Robbie Caplan was I hardly knew a lawyer. George Conway
Speaker 2: is the one who suggested, as he said, I think
Speaker 2: I know someone. That's what he said, and it turns
Speaker 2: out to be Robbie Caplan, the woman who opened up
Speaker 2: the way for gay rights in this country, and the
Speaker 2: woman who at the time was trouncing the Nazis in Charlottesville.
Speaker 2: And that was a huge case, this white supremacist the Nazis.
Speaker 1: Remember all of them put together.
Speaker 2: Robbie beat them all, just fucking beat them all. And
Speaker 2: as you know, she's this tiny little woman, long woman
Speaker 2: from you know, Shaker Heights, Ohio, just mashed the Nazis,
Speaker 2: and so she was the one.
Speaker 1: Now when you I mean, this is a tough question,
Speaker 1: but when you walk into Bergdorfs with Trump and everything
Speaker 1: horrible ensues. You're walking in there with somebody that you
Speaker 1: thought you knew, kind of, that you had an impression of,
Speaker 1: kind of, and the Trump you eventually meet was one
Speaker 1: you never met before. So the Trump that you're walking into,
Speaker 1: who was he? You thought he was just charming and
Speaker 1: silly and fun. Yeah, he's kind of a fop boy.
Speaker 2: Is that a perfect word? He actually made a joke
Speaker 2: about himself. He was easy and up for anything, up
Speaker 2: for a wark, and you know, playful exactly. It Come
Speaker 2: help me by a present?
Speaker 1: What am I?
Speaker 2: I'm an advice calmnist. That's my duty to help people
Speaker 2: buy a present. So I was real. Also he was
Speaker 2: very pretty at that time, a huh interesting, very tall,
Speaker 2: very handsome, very blonde, you know, in the old overcoat.
Speaker 2: He was quite pretty. It was quite fun, that's the word.
Speaker 2: Taking Trump through Burgdors suggesting gifts and he's, you know,
Speaker 2: yamoring about how he's thinking a buy and Burgdors.
Speaker 1: You're there to buy a bag, he's there to buy
Speaker 1: the store.
Speaker 2: But it's just exactly what happened in the first election.
Speaker 2: We thought he was a clown. Remember, we thought he
Speaker 2: was light and sort of silly and a hoddler and
Speaker 2: sort of a con mes. Yeah, that's what the world thought.
Speaker 2: And then, like me, it turned dark. Boom, he's not
Speaker 2: that way. He's not that way. It's like funny, funny, funny, laughing, laughing, laughing,
Speaker 2: playful boom. Then he's sending troops into the streets. You know,
Speaker 2: I wish people had paid attention to what I said,
Speaker 2: you know me, and you know what two dozen other women.
Speaker 1: Yes, I had a friend of mine told me a story.
Speaker 1: Someone he told me about was accused of sexually attacking
Speaker 1: a woman in the dining room of a famous private club.
Speaker 1: You know, linen's and posh and suits and ties, and
Speaker 1: they're having lunch. The guy puts his hand under the
Speaker 1: table and you can imagine the rest. So he's doing
Speaker 1: this in the center dining room of this fabulous Manhattan
Speaker 1: private club, and she goes and preses charges eventually, and
Speaker 1: the next thing that happens is, of course, what's the
Speaker 1: liability of the club. And I was wondering, were there
Speaker 1: ever any consequences at all for Bergdorfs when this happened.
Speaker 2: No, Alec Bergdorf stepped up and gave Robbie kaplan the
Speaker 2: floor plans of the sixth. No, they were extremely cooperative
Speaker 2: and good people.
Speaker 1: Right, great, they were good people.
Speaker 2: And I know that story that you just said about.
Speaker 2: I know that identical story from a young, really sharp
Speaker 2: and beautiful young woman at club. They were sitting downstairs.
Speaker 2: Trump is sitting next to her. It's a big business meeting.
Speaker 2: She had just met him. And again the hand under
Speaker 2: the table, right up her leg and going up as
Speaker 2: far as he could. Right at twenty one. She had
Speaker 2: just met him, right, I mean unspeakable. And of course
Speaker 2: she did not officially come forward like many other women, many, many, many,
Speaker 2: and other women didn't come forward about him.
Speaker 1: Journalist and author Egen Carroll, if you're enjoying this conversation,
Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow. Here's the
Speaker 1: thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Egene Carroll reflects on
Speaker 1: her life and tells us what advice she would or
Speaker 1: wouldn't give to her younger self. I'm Alec Baldwin, and
Speaker 1: this is here's the thing. El magazine first published the
Speaker 1: Ask Egen advice column in nineteen ninety three. In the column,
Speaker 1: Egen Carol spoke to readers with her opinions and advice
Speaker 1: on sex, feminism, and their various life situations. Her column
Speaker 1: was widely read and acclaimed for being compassionate, fearless, and inspiring. Now,
Speaker 1: thirty two years after ask Egen began, I was curious
Speaker 1: what advice Egen Carol would give to her younger self.
Speaker 2: To my younger self, I want need advice from my
Speaker 2: younger self. My younger self was great. I love my
Speaker 2: younger I write my younger self just to advise me,
Speaker 2: to say, Egene, you're having a great time. Enjoy the
Speaker 2: end of the world. That's the thing yourself, it's going
Speaker 2: to say, of the world, let's party. Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2: I have no advice to that young woman. She was
Speaker 2: full of beans, and I really I liked her, And
Speaker 2: I liked you when you were younger. I like you
Speaker 2: even better now. So yeah, none of those writing letters
Speaker 2: to younger selves, because interesting, the younger selves had it all.
Speaker 2: Why so are we going to give those fucking younger people? No,
Speaker 2: we can listen to them well, you got seven kids.
Speaker 2: You can listen to them.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I need some advice, not from my children,
Speaker 1: although they keep giving it to me.
Speaker 2: Can I ask one question, alec Yes, please. The family
Speaker 2: you've created, is it like your family that you had
Speaker 2: when you were growing up on Long Island?
Speaker 1: Well not really, because my dad had a job where
Speaker 1: he was not home until the very end of the day,
Speaker 1: and as a result, I would wait up. I had
Speaker 1: this silly game. My mother was too exhausted and emotionally
Speaker 1: spent to really really parent me in a way, so
Speaker 1: I would literally talk to my mother and I said
Speaker 1: the most idiotic things to my mother. When I look back,
Speaker 1: I'd say, I'm going to stay up and let dad.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait up for dad. Everyone in my house
Speaker 1: is asleep. My dad came home, he'd lay on the
Speaker 1: couch and he'd say to me, and this is the
Speaker 1: part of why I wanted to be an actor. And
Speaker 1: he'd lay on the couch and he'd have the New
Speaker 1: York Times in his hand, that with those fiffy TV
Speaker 1: reviews of the movies and reviews, and he sit there
Speaker 1: and go, Wow, how green was my valley? That's a
Speaker 1: great movie. And I'd say, let's watch it, and he said, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you gotta go to bed. It's eleven thirty. You gotta go.
Speaker 1: You gotta go to bed now. And I go, come on,
Speaker 1: let's just watch ten minutes and he say, okay, ten
Speaker 1: minutes and then he'd pass out and fall asleep.
Speaker 2: Oh and you see.
Speaker 1: And I would watch Five Graves to Cairo. I'd watch
Speaker 1: How Green was My Valley? I watched Sorry, Wrong Number,
Speaker 1: I watched a Red River. I watched every old movie
Speaker 1: on TV for years, City for Conquest. I watched all
Speaker 1: the great old studio movies, gangster movies. And that was
Speaker 1: the beginning of me wanted to be an actor.
Speaker 2: So that's interesting. Say you have your career, which is
Speaker 2: a lot of movies and a lot of hit TV.
Speaker 2: So it comes from this childhood and watching these great
Speaker 2: movies and then watching you know, Dinah Shore and all that.
Speaker 2: Because you're exactly Mike Douglas.
Speaker 1: Everything you're nerved with it. I watch. The thing is,
Speaker 1: when I was young, I watched anything. I watched the
Speaker 1: news with John Chancellor, with my father, I watched everything everything.
Speaker 1: Now I want to say to you, thank you you
Speaker 1: are and you've heard this ad infinite And what a
Speaker 1: hero you are to women who've suffered through this because
Speaker 1: you hung in there under much stress and abuse and
Speaker 1: were rewarded. You are a hero obviously to people of
Speaker 1: this movement that crested during your proceedings and Canter and Twey,
Speaker 1: and you're a great hero to a lot of women
Speaker 1: because you fought, You fought for yourself.
Speaker 2: Thank you person. Can I tell you something, Yes, you
Speaker 2: are the only journalist, the only interviewer I think of
Speaker 2: you as a journalist. You're the only person who never
Speaker 2: said to me, Egene, when are you getting your money?
Speaker 2: You're the only one because they don't understand. To me,
Speaker 2: it was proving he was a liar. That was the thing.
Speaker 2: That was the thing. I proved it. I proved it.
Speaker 2: So we're going to get the money. But I don't
Speaker 2: understand why everybody's panties are in such a twist about
Speaker 2: getting this money.
Speaker 1: Right. Well, well we'll know, you know, I we'll know.
Speaker 1: We'll do. You got the money, we'll do another interview
Speaker 1: and there'll be a lot of cashmere blankets on those
Speaker 1: chairs behind you.
Speaker 2: Oh dude, can you imagine? These are so many Wrangler
Speaker 2: wool shirts a before we go. Yes, I've got a
Speaker 2: new project, the end of the world. Sometimes I look
Speaker 2: at it as a merry event. Sometimes I think, oh no.
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's global warming, sometimes it's a nuclear threat. Sometimes
Speaker 2: it's the collapse of the government. You know, every day
Speaker 2: it's a different thing. But I want to know the
Speaker 2: fun things you would do at the end of the world.
Speaker 1: Probably sit on the couch and watch reruns of The
Speaker 1: Dinah Shore Show. That's when I was happiest. My younger
Speaker 1: self was a far happier than my adults, far happier
Speaker 1: when I was younger.
Speaker 2: Ali, that is a breakthrough. May I talk to you
Speaker 2: later in a couple of months about this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have dinner with Robbie perfect. I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it too, all right, listen, you take good
Speaker 1: care of yourself, and I want to send you my
Speaker 1: very best of my sincere thanks for doing the show.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.
Speaker 2: I loved every minute, every fucking minute. I love it.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
Speaker 1: My thanks to author and journalist Egene Carroll. This episode
Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. Were
Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin.
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is
Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that is
Speaker 1: brought to you by Ihearts Video