WEBVTT - E Jean Carroll on Writing and Resilience 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:05.640 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:10.360 Thing from iHeart Radio. When you consider the life and 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.440 work of my guest today, you would be forgiven for 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.960 thinking it was all a work of fiction. Egene Carroll 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.639 has lived a life of drama and intrigue that any 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.959 actor would aspire to play on television. Known for writing 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.360 one of the longest running advice columns in American publishing, 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.640 Carol advised readers of L magazine from nineteen ninety three 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:36.560 to twenty nineteen in her Asked Egene column. During that time, 0:00:36.640 --> 0:00:40.320 she wrote several books, including two thousand and four's Mister Wright, 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:44.000 Right Now, How a Smart Woman Can Land Her Dream Man. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:49.240 In six weeks after ending her advice column in twenty nineteen, 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:54.880 Carrol's work as an author changed dramatically. In her fifth book, 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.600 titled What do We Need Men For a Modest Proposal, 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.960 Carol accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her in the 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.920 mid nineteen nineties. A follow up was released in twenty 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:11.039 twenty five, entitled Not My Type. One Woman Versus a President. 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:15.760 Carol's decision to come forward with her story culminated with 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.920 her winning multiple civil cases against Donald Trump and being 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:25.040 awarded eighty three point three million dollars in damages. Apart 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:29.120 from her victories in court, Carol's writing career includes work 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:33.600 published in New York magazine, Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, Esquire, 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:38.560 and Outside Magazine. With such an illustrious writing career, I 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.080 was curious if Egene started out as an avid reader. 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:45.839 Well, I never picked up a book when I was young. 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.640 My whole thing was to be outside and play. My 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:51.960 parents could not force me to pick up a book, 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:55.760 could not force me. My mother would yell when I 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:59.600 came home from the first grade because my grades were 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:04.280 so bad. Words didn't interest me, you know, caterpillars interested 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:08.880 in me. Sheep interested me, right, Grass I grew up. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:17.280 It was a nineteenth century Queen Anne red brick schoolhouse 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:22.840 in the middle of the sticks, behind the sticks in 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:24.320 the hills of Indiana. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:25.160 Wow. 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.240 Oh, it was exquisite. And my parents, my young parents, 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.519 were full of beans, and they bought this shambling old 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:38.600 schoolhouse and remodeled it and we moved in. And across 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.560 the street was the old church, and across the street 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:46.720 from that was the graveyard. That was my childhood. Oh, Alec, 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.400 it was boot Collic and so my mother would open 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:51.919 the front door and I would run out, and that 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:53.840 would be that would be it for the day. I 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.520 would be outside, Alexai, you didn't have to look. I mean, 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:00.200 just picture this. You open your front door and to 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.240 tell the kid to go outside. You'll see him at 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.520 dinner time. That's how safe, That's how far back in 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:08.920 the country were and how safe we were. And I 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.919 only had my dog for my companion. That then I'd 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.360 come back for lunch, and then I leave again by myself. 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:21.680 And when does this take hold of you? This idea 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:24.119 you were writing when you were very young, I understand. 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:28.440 Well, at the age of twelve, my father came home. 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.880 He handed my mother something. My mother began screaming and 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:35.200 ran out the door, ran up and down the street. 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.720 Now we had moved into the colossal Fort Wayne, Indiana, 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.080 and so we had neighbors. So she ran up and 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.720 down the street, yelling with excitement, so thrilled what her 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:48.320 husband had given her. I thought, what the hell is 0:03:48.360 --> 0:03:53.120 going on? What had happened? Is he in Time magazine? 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.600 He had had a letter published to the editor, And 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:01.520 I thought, oh, this is the sighting. This is what 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.160 happens when you get published in a magazine. So I 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:07.800 thought this is good. So I sent off my first 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:09.960 pitch at the age of twelve to the series and 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:10.960 Roebuck Catalog. 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:11.960 What was the pitch? 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.240 Oh, a story idea about a little girl who cut 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.080 out all the clothes in the series and Roebuck Catalog, 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.159 and everything she cut out became real and she got 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:24.120 to wear the clothes, so. 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.680 She wanted to go shopping. She didn't go to the 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:30.240 catalog to order things. She just materialized them from the 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:31.440 images in the captin. 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.800 That's exactly I love that. Oh, they turned it down. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:34.719 They turned it down. 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.680 So but I saw the light. I saw that writing 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:41.159 something and having it published caused a great to do, 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:43.840 and it looked like it was a lot of fun. 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.360 I mean, when you see your own mother tearing out 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:51.040 into the street to show the neighbors, yelling and laughing 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:54.720 about this great thing that happened and what it was. 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:58.520 It was something that was published in a magazine. It 0:04:58.640 --> 0:04:59.960 really lit up my brain. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.839 Now, when you're riding and you first get to New York. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:06.080 To come to New York, when. 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:10.800 Nineteen eighty one, eighty one, I came here to take 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:16.479 fran Lubowitz camping, for Outside Magazine. Can you imagine taking 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:18.440 fran Lubowitz camping? 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:19.240 No, I can't. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:21.760 I can't putting her into a tent. 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.560 No. When I saw that in the documentary, Mike God, 0:05:25.800 --> 0:05:27.839 I almost gagged. I thought, that's brilliant. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:33.440 Oh God, Jesus, I know. So I just took a 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:37.480 look around New York and said Jesus, and never went 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:39.640 back to Well. I went back to Montana to pack 0:05:39.800 --> 0:05:42.640 up and say goodbye to the old husband, and then 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:43.479 came to New York. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:44.599 We're in Montana, were you? 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.520 Oh? Ennis, fly fishing capital of the world. 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.240 That's where he wanted to deliver. You were into fly fishing. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.200 He thought he was on his timingway, so he was 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.200 in the fly fishing was unbelievable, I admit, But you know, 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:01.159 I rode my horse, miss Hot, and he fly fished 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.520 and was a firefighter during the fire season. So and 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.560 then we wanted to be writers. And when we were 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.479 practicing being trying to get into magazines. That was a 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.360 big thing, to get into magazines. 0:06:12.760 --> 0:06:15.640 Did you back in the Montana days were you published? 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:19.240 We both got He became editor in chief of Outdoor Life, 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.360 and I took Friendly Woods camping. You know, what it's 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.279 like arriving in New York when you're you know, ready 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:28.760 to go, and you're running up and down the boulevards 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:30.960 at two in the morning, and it's fact aous. You're 0:06:31.000 --> 0:06:34.560 meeting friends and you're staying up. Remember the brasserie where 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:37.800 we would go and have coffee at the end of 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:38.159 the night. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:44.080 I mean, yeah, Cafe Central, all those places, all the 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.240 late night joints. That's all dead now. By the way, 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:47.400 every he's in bed, you. 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:51.640 Know, I don't understand it, Dull. 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.080 It's changed. Its changed a lot. Everybody's in bed, they're 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:55.120 up early, they go jogging. 0:06:55.279 --> 0:07:00.880 Well, you're in bedd okay? Can I ask you so sure? 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:02.880 When do you do all your reading? 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:07.800 I would say that I carry reading with me and 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.560 when I have interstitial moments during the day where I'm 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.520 sitting there driving in a car, you know, I want 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.320 to read the New Yorker, I want to read more 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.280 of some book I do that. I find that reading 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:22.800 at night when I go to sleep is advisable in 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.480 order to get off the tablet. What's the greatest place 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.440 on earth to read? What's your favorite place to read? 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.360 In the kitchen standing up when I'm eating lunch. 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.080 My answer is on an airplane. Oh, airplane to the bet, 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:39.360 that's what airplanes were built for. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:42.280 Well, the airplane is great because nobody can get to 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:43.440 your next seat. 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.720 Bubble. Oh you put on that, you put that, hell 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.760 those headphones on and on a little shell pan nocturn. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:52.680 And start reading It's heaven. 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.920 Now I want to get into your more about your writing, 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:58.600 which is that where's the place you were writing with, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.400 whether you were on the staff or not. Who were 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.240 you on the staff with for the longest. 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.360 Well, it's it Saturday Night Live for a half year. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:11.840 That was a good staff until Senator the future Senator 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:14.480 came up behind. He didn't realize how I was there, 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.200 Senator Franklin, and he picked up the sketch that I 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:23.040 had actress read through, and al frank said, what the 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.960 fuck is this? Why was it read? He didn't realize 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:32.199 I was there, and you Ali, who I believe has 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.600 made more appearances on Saturday Night Live than anybody in 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:41.680 the history seventeen times. So you know what a killing 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.120 line that would be to hear As a writer. I 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:47.480 knew I was doomed, but nothing I wrote at that 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.560 show they thought was funny, not a single word. I 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:55.600 couldn't nothing dead silence that read through? Can you imagine. 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.760 Dead, painful silent? You were there just for half a year. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.120 I did not even know that was possible. 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:05.719 Who knew, right? But Larry David lasted a half year. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.360 I didn't know that. Wow, you're a good company, I am. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.280 But in terms of magazines, you warned us on the 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:13.720 staff of any magazines. 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:19.560 Yeah, Esquire right outside l There were some other magazines too, 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:20.400 but yeah, yeah. 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:21.720 So why did you decide you want to do the 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:22.360 TV show? 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:24.440 Well, who wouldn't want to do a TV show? 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:28.560 But who told you? Well? Where did the where did 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:31.680 the impetus come, either from yourself or from someone else 0:09:31.720 --> 0:09:33.480 in your life to step in front of the camera 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:35.800 and you believed you were camera ready so to speak. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:39.520 That was Roger Ailes's decision. Somebody showed him the column, 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:44.439 the ascgene column, and Rogers decided, well, what did he 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:46.960 have to lose? I mean, nobody was watching this new 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.120 network he started, which eventually became MSNBC, and he had 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.720 nothing to lose, so he just put me on TV. 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.280 To do live I mean Fox. 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.920 No, this is the new NBC channel that Roger Ailes 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.280 himself created out as nothing, and he just gave me 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.400 a live hour every day on TV. It was you know, 0:10:06.400 --> 0:10:07.280 it was fun. 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.120 Then when you were doing that show, and you're creating 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.000 that show, and you're producing that show. Who helped you 0:10:13.000 --> 0:10:14.440 get that thing rolling? Elke? 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.080 I had no idea what the fuck I was doing. 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:19.240 You know, you covered it brilliantly. 0:10:19.760 --> 0:10:22.160 I just climbed on the sofa and started jumping up 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:24.760 and down, because that's it was just to bring an 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:29.400 advice column alive, because, as you know, an advice column 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:34.440 has got the hatred and passion and the love and 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.640 the jealousy, has got everything. And I thought, yeah, no, 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:42.600 everybody's there. So I thought, I, well, you just bring 0:10:42.640 --> 0:10:45.560 that to TV. And I tried. You know, maybe in 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:48.600 another couple of years I would have calmed down and 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:50.960 would have had a really good show. 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.920 But did someone discuss with you? Did you tell them 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:56.960 what kind of show you wanted to do, or did 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.240 they tell you what they expected from you? 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:03.199 No, Roger said, hey, Egen, go do your show. Here's 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:06.720 an hour. And so really my thing was to bring 0:11:06.760 --> 0:11:10.240 the advice column alive. Everybody there was a news producer, 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.560 so we sort of stumbled around I didn't even know 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:16.680 what a producer was. I had no idea. So they, 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:18.280 of course they would get the guests, and there was 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.719 an entire staff, you know, who begged people to come 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:22.320 on the show. 0:11:22.520 --> 0:11:24.760 Booking is yeah, you live and die by booking. 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:29.520 Oh yeah. It was a free for all, a free 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:33.480 for all on that network until it became MSNBC. So 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:37.000 that's how Roger did it. And then Roger left and 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.840 created the Fox News Juggernaut. 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.480 Now I'm want to read you a quote Bill Toanelli, 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.079 Esquire and Rolling Stone editor said in a nineteen ninety 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:55.480 nine interview that you are quote institutionally incapable of being uninteresting? 0:11:56.480 --> 0:12:00.280 Is the Egen Carroll show on TV you in real life? Well? 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.360 Did you create the Egen Carrol that stepped in front 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:04.560 of the camera or was that just you? 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:10.160 Before I started talking to you today, I was another Egen. 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:14.240 This is the Egen that I'm talking to Ali. As 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:17.760 you know, there's an Alec Baldwin that is the Barbara 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.800 Stanwick of his generation does comedy and tragedy. That's you. 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:26.920 I love that. I'm the Barbara Stanwick. 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:28.400 Barbara Stanwyck. Nobody played comedy and. 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:31.840 Tragedy like yeah, all of it. Yeah, she was great. 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:33.800 So there's the private you and the public you. 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:35.319 Yes, there we go. 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:36.600 Yeah, it's a character you play. 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.560 Yeah, that came up during the trial. Tell me how 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:44.680 how oh the defense of the president tried to take 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.360 every time I made a joke or went to a 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.439 party or said something funny in a col this woman 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:54.040 couldn't have suffered from the attack. Look how Look how 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.560 Mary and johny she is? That was their case. In 0:12:57.600 --> 0:13:01.160 other words, if you're a woman and and you have 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:07.080 been attacked, you have to wear a shroud forever, cover 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:12.480 yourself and sit in a cave and never smile again, 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:16.439 never have a career again, don't have any friends. God knows, 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.760 you should never go to a party again. They pulled 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.200 out every single party I'd been to, which was like five, 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:28.280 you know, since their no it was they thought that 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:32.040 it was sixteen hundreds. It was the sixteen hundreds, you know, 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:35.800 weren't allowed to smile. What woman's life was to be over? 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.640 Well, now that you bring this up, let me just 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.719 ask you this. This is what's important to me. You have friends, 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:43.360 like when I live in New York, my friends with 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.800 these Rockefeller Republicans, which is less regulation on my businesses 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:48.800 and lower taxes, and they don't give a shit about 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.480 anything else. They don't care about same sex marriage, abortion, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.880 the social issues don't play to them. Now, when you 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:58.800 went through this whole thing, or many years pass between 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:00.840 the event and the late nine and you were writing 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:03.160 your book and then going to court, did you have 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:05.720 friends of yours that were Republicans who were really really 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.120 disappointed or angry with you. 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:13.520 My mother was a Republican politician. But you know what, 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.479 and like, I never told her. She was on her deathbed. 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:21.320 We were all around her when Trump was running and 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.320 all those women came forward. Remember all those women came 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:28.280 forward after the access So I went to and so 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.200 I never told my mother because I thought it would 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:35.280 kill her. So she was really Remember I'm from Indiana. 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.560 I have a lot of friends who are Republicans, but 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:43.640 nobody said anything because they hated Donald Trump for doing it, 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:46.320 just hated it. They just heard it and they hated it. 0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:51.520 So no, I got slimed by everybody else in the country, 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.840 but not by my Republican friends. No. 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.680 So, well, a lot of years go by and the 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.160 event happens, and then you write the book. Was there 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.080 some pivotal moment when you knew you had to step 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:05.960 up and do what you wanted to do. Because it 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.720 was almost twenty years later, what was it that made 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:09.520 you move forward? 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.760 Oh? It was Megan Twoian and Jodi Kantner coming out 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:16.720 in the New York Times with the Harvey Weinstein story. Really, 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:20.360 do you remember how that rocked the country? Sure, and 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.520 women stood up. Probably half the women you knew had 0:15:24.520 --> 0:15:28.000 a story, and they suddenly started telling those stories. And 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:32.000 I thought, oh Jesus, women are talking. Because I'm a 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:37.080 silent generation woman. I was born during the Second World War, 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:39.960 so the last thing we would ever do is talk 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:45.080 about our whole thing was chin up and smile. Wow, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.880 that was it. We expected a man to be a 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:51.040 little gravvy and to be a little pushy, and to 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.680 be a honey, honey, honey, and to back you up 0:15:53.720 --> 0:15:58.520 against the wall. That's what it was like going to work. Oh, 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.440 come on, el and Jodie Katner and Megan Toury hit 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.320 the front page of the New York Times, and women, 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.880 well known women. When is Paltrow? You know, they were 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:14.800 coming forward with stories about Harvey Winston. Brad Pitt stepped up. 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:16.880 Remember when they told the story where he had called 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.400 Harvey and said, if you dare go near one, that's 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:21.120 one more time I will kill you. 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.720 Yeah, I would love to have seen that. Oh I 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.080 don't see Brad, you know, cuddle with Harvey for a 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:28.600 little while. 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:32.560 But anyway, oh man, So they showed me what to do, so. 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:34.840 I did it. I'm going to see this. Sheila Nevans 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:36.680 is on the show. I don't respect anybody in this 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.560 business more than Shila Nevans, who single handedly crafts HBO 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:43.960 documentaries and is the godmother of so many documentaries. And 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:45.640 she talks to me about a guy, his hands on 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.240 her leg, he's on her knee, his hand's going up 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.400 her dress whatever. And I stopped and I go, what 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:53.640 did you do? She goes, I slept with him. I go, 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.400 are you kidding me? She goes, no, back then, that's 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.280 what you did if you wanted to get ahead. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:01.960 And I thought, God, that's exactly right. And if you didn't, 0:17:02.320 --> 0:17:03.960 you would not get the promotion. 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.320 Right. That's what she said, That's how you got ahead. 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.800 This is why women have never gained a quality because 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:14.600 of the sexual violence. This is why women have always 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.600 always a little lower than men. 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:19.440 Always at right on my show. 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:23.240 Believe me, Oh not in your life. You either believe 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:23.640 you that. 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.800 Journalist and author Agene Carroll. If you're interested in the 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:37.359 origins of the me Too movement on Hollywood's reckoning with 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.480 sex and power, check out my conversation with New York 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.080 Times writers Megan Chewey and Jodi Kanter. 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:46.760 It's really important to remember that there are two categories 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:52.080 of women essentially that Weinstein allegedly harasses and assaults. One 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:56.639 of them actresses. The second assistance women who want to 0:17:56.680 --> 0:17:59.720 be producers, right, women who are twenty three years old, 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:02.000 and they are so excited because they're on there. 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.480 At the bottom of the ladder, very first. 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:06.879 Day at a company like Mirramax or the Weinstein Company. 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.160 This is going to be their big shot. It's so exciting, 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.200 there's so much potential here. And then boom, Harvey Weinstein 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.880 walks into the room and everything changes. And so this 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.840 is all about the actresses and the assistants. 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:18.120 Both. 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.440 They're coming into this with with dreams, with ideas, with ambitions, 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:27.240 with hopes, and he turns those hopes and ambitions against 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.520 the women. And that has to do also with the 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.840 power of the movie. Is the power of this work. 0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:36.360 You know, what is your ticket into this world? And 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:39.480 how can that? You know, is your desire for entry 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.479 into this world a kind of vulnerability that can then 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:43.359 be turned against you. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.879 To hear more of my conversation with Megan Chewy and 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:53.159 Jodi Kanter, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.440 the break, Egene Carol talks about publishing her explosive twenty 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:00.440 nineteen book and who stood by her while so much 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:16.400 of the general public did not believe her accusations. I'm 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:20.000 Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:24.119 the late nineteen nineties, Egen Carol bumped into Donald Trump 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:28.080 outside of Bergdorf Goodman in New York City. What started 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:32.120 as an impromptu shopping trip turned into a harrowing account 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:36.280 of sexual assault in a department store dressing room. I 0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.959 wanted to know how Egene coped with such a traumatic event, 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.560 and what it's like constantly seeing her attacker, who was 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.879 also the President of the United States on television and 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:48.040 in media. 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:54.719 You know, seeing him so much, so saturated and everything. 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:57.800 Either I got the fuck over it and moved on 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.920 and was able to take him, or my life really 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.640 would have been over. I was so immersed in it 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.560 that I became accustomed to it, and then I didn't 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:10.000 even see it. That's what happens. It becomes it becomes 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.840 not a horrible it becomes something that I lived with. 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.439 You either learn to bat it away or your life 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:17.880 is over. 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.639 Well, now, before you press charges, before you bring a 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:25.480 case against him, you write the book. Yeah, but do 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.199 the imprint bulk at that idea of writing that material 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:30.800 about him? Were they concerned about that at all? 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.160 Legally we had that thing. Every word was gone through 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.360 by one of the great attorneys in the country. 0:20:37.680 --> 0:20:39.080 So they backed you that imprint. 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:43.120 Yeah, and also New York Magazine backed it. That thing 0:20:43.240 --> 0:20:45.600 was fact checked up and down when I when I 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.000 came out with the story, it's remarkable it was in 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:52.040 the book. But New York Magazine excerpted that was the 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.840 thing that hit the White House. And they saw that 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:58.360 picture of me on the cover and like without makeup, 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.600 without makeup, and that's when he said, you know, when 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:04.840 you're seventy five, you don't go on the cover of 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:09.400 a magazine without makeup. Right. The feeling was, she's when 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.159 a woman tells the truth, she doesn't stand there in 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:14.680 a gob of makeup, so they put it on the 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:18.320 cover and there I am an elderly woman, and the 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:24.080 story came out, and because I looked so old, and 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:28.080 because I look my age, most people didn't believe me. 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.320 Really didn't believe. 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.240 You didn't believe it. You don't see an old lady 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.359 when she comes forward and talks about what happens being 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.800 attacked by a man. She's not believed Alex unless she 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:45.280 looks fuckable. She's got to look desirable in some way. 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:50.760 And they couldn't picture the snazzy, young Donald Trump attacking 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:52.600 this elderly crone. 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:54.800 I try to tell myself as I get older, that 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.040 you're fuckable to somebody out there. The task is just 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:01.280 to find them. Got be somebody, You got me somebody. 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:03.920 I'm like, hey, do you remember back in the day 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:08.160 when nobody was better looking than you? Nobody I found them. 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:10.439 I had a good month. I had a great I 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.440 had one month in the early ninety decades you had 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:15.760 the early nineties. I had that was good. It was 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:16.240