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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. When you consider the life and

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Speaker 1: work of my guest today, you would be forgiven for

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Speaker 1: thinking it was all a work of fiction. Egene Carroll

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Speaker 1: has lived a life of drama and intrigue that any

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Speaker 1: actor would aspire to play on television. Known for writing

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Speaker 1: one of the longest running advice columns in American publishing,

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Speaker 1: Carol advised readers of L magazine from nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 1: to twenty nineteen in her Asked Egene column. During that time,

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Speaker 1: she wrote several books, including two thousand and four's Mister Wright,

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Speaker 1: Right Now, How a Smart Woman Can Land Her Dream Man.

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Speaker 1: In six weeks after ending her advice column in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Carrol's work as an author changed dramatically. In her fifth book,

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Speaker 1: titled What do We Need Men For a Modest Proposal,

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Speaker 1: Carol accused Donald Trump of sexually assaulting her in the

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Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties. A follow up was released in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty five, entitled Not My Type. One Woman Versus a President.

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Speaker 1: Carol's decision to come forward with her story culminated with

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Speaker 1: her winning multiple civil cases against Donald Trump and being

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Speaker 1: awarded eighty three point three million dollars in damages. Apart

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Speaker 1: from her victories in court, Carol's writing career includes work

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Speaker 1: published in New York magazine, Vanity Fair, The Atlantic, Esquire,

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Speaker 1: and Outside Magazine. With such an illustrious writing career, I

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Speaker 1: was curious if Egene started out as an avid reader.

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Speaker 2: Well, I never picked up a book when I was young.

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Speaker 2: My whole thing was to be outside and play. My

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Speaker 2: parents could not force me to pick up a book,

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Speaker 2: could not force me. My mother would yell when I

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Speaker 2: came home from the first grade because my grades were

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Speaker 2: so bad. Words didn't interest me, you know, caterpillars interested

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Speaker 2: in me. Sheep interested me, right, Grass I grew up.

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Speaker 2: It was a nineteenth century Queen Anne red brick schoolhouse

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the sticks, behind the sticks in

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Speaker 2: the hills of Indiana.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it was exquisite. And my parents, my young parents,

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Speaker 2: were full of beans, and they bought this shambling old

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Speaker 2: schoolhouse and remodeled it and we moved in. And across

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Speaker 2: the street was the old church, and across the street

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Speaker 2: from that was the graveyard. That was my childhood. Oh, Alec,

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Speaker 2: it was boot Collic and so my mother would open

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Speaker 2: the front door and I would run out, and that

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Speaker 2: would be that would be it for the day. I

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Speaker 2: would be outside, Alexai, you didn't have to look. I mean,

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Speaker 2: just picture this. You open your front door and to

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Speaker 2: tell the kid to go outside. You'll see him at

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Speaker 2: dinner time. That's how safe, That's how far back in

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Speaker 2: the country were and how safe we were. And I

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Speaker 2: only had my dog for my companion. That then I'd

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Speaker 2: come back for lunch, and then I leave again by myself.

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Speaker 1: And when does this take hold of you? This idea

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Speaker 1: you were writing when you were very young, I understand.

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Speaker 2: Well, at the age of twelve, my father came home.

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Speaker 2: He handed my mother something. My mother began screaming and

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Speaker 2: ran out the door, ran up and down the street.

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Speaker 2: Now we had moved into the colossal Fort Wayne, Indiana,

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Speaker 2: and so we had neighbors. So she ran up and

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Speaker 2: down the street, yelling with excitement, so thrilled what her

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Speaker 2: husband had given her. I thought, what the hell is

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Speaker 2: going on? What had happened? Is he in Time magazine?

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Speaker 2: He had had a letter published to the editor, And

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh, this is the sighting. This is what

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Speaker 2: happens when you get published in a magazine. So I

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Speaker 2: thought this is good. So I sent off my first

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Speaker 2: pitch at the age of twelve to the series and

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Speaker 2: Roebuck Catalog.

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Speaker 1: What was the pitch?

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Speaker 2: Oh, a story idea about a little girl who cut

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Speaker 2: out all the clothes in the series and Roebuck Catalog,

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Speaker 2: and everything she cut out became real and she got

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Speaker 2: to wear the clothes, so.

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Speaker 1: She wanted to go shopping. She didn't go to the

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Speaker 1: catalog to order things. She just materialized them from the

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Speaker 1: images in the captin.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly I love that. Oh, they turned it down.

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Speaker 1: They turned it down.

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Speaker 2: So but I saw the light. I saw that writing

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Speaker 2: something and having it published caused a great to do,

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Speaker 2: and it looked like it was a lot of fun.

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Speaker 2: I mean, when you see your own mother tearing out

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Speaker 2: into the street to show the neighbors, yelling and laughing

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Speaker 2: about this great thing that happened and what it was.

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Speaker 2: It was something that was published in a magazine. It

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Speaker 2: really lit up my brain.

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Speaker 1: Now, when you're riding and you first get to New York.

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Speaker 1: To come to New York, when.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen eighty one, eighty one, I came here to take

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Speaker 2: fran Lubowitz camping, for Outside Magazine. Can you imagine taking

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Speaker 2: fran Lubowitz camping?

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Speaker 1: No, I can't.

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Speaker 2: I can't putting her into a tent.

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Speaker 1: No. When I saw that in the documentary, Mike God,

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Speaker 1: I almost gagged. I thought, that's brilliant.

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Speaker 2: Oh God, Jesus, I know. So I just took a

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Speaker 2: look around New York and said Jesus, and never went

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Speaker 2: back to Well. I went back to Montana to pack

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Speaker 2: up and say goodbye to the old husband, and then

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Speaker 2: came to New York.

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Speaker 1: We're in Montana, were you?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Ennis, fly fishing capital of the world.

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Speaker 1: That's where he wanted to deliver. You were into fly fishing.

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Speaker 2: He thought he was on his timingway, so he was

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Speaker 2: in the fly fishing was unbelievable, I admit, But you know,

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Speaker 2: I rode my horse, miss Hot, and he fly fished

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Speaker 2: and was a firefighter during the fire season. So and

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Speaker 2: then we wanted to be writers. And when we were

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Speaker 2: practicing being trying to get into magazines. That was a

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Speaker 2: big thing, to get into magazines.

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Speaker 1: Did you back in the Montana days were you published?

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Speaker 2: We both got He became editor in chief of Outdoor Life,

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Speaker 2: and I took Friendly Woods camping. You know, what it's

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Speaker 2: like arriving in New York when you're you know, ready

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Speaker 2: to go, and you're running up and down the boulevards

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Speaker 2: at two in the morning, and it's fact aous. You're

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Speaker 2: meeting friends and you're staying up. Remember the brasserie where

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Speaker 2: we would go and have coffee at the end of

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Speaker 2: the night.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, Cafe Central, all those places, all the

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Speaker 1: late night joints. That's all dead now. By the way,

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Speaker 1: every he's in bed, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, I don't understand it, Dull.

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Speaker 1: It's changed. Its changed a lot. Everybody's in bed, they're

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Speaker 1: up early, they go jogging.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're in bedd okay? Can I ask you so sure?

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Speaker 2: When do you do all your reading?

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Speaker 1: I would say that I carry reading with me and

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Speaker 1: when I have interstitial moments during the day where I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting there driving in a car, you know, I want

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Speaker 1: to read the New Yorker, I want to read more

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Speaker 1: of some book I do that. I find that reading

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Speaker 1: at night when I go to sleep is advisable in

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Speaker 1: order to get off the tablet. What's the greatest place

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Speaker 1: on earth to read? What's your favorite place to read?

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Speaker 2: In the kitchen standing up when I'm eating lunch.

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Speaker 1: My answer is on an airplane. Oh, airplane to the bet,

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Speaker 1: that's what airplanes were built for.

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Speaker 2: Well, the airplane is great because nobody can get to

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Speaker 2: your next seat.

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Speaker 1: Bubble. Oh you put on that, you put that, hell

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Speaker 1: those headphones on and on a little shell pan nocturn.

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Speaker 2: And start reading It's heaven.

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Speaker 1: Now I want to get into your more about your writing,

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Speaker 1: which is that where's the place you were writing with,

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Speaker 1: whether you were on the staff or not. Who were

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Speaker 1: you on the staff with for the longest.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's it Saturday Night Live for a half year.

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Speaker 2: That was a good staff until Senator the future Senator

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Speaker 2: came up behind. He didn't realize how I was there,

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Speaker 2: Senator Franklin, and he picked up the sketch that I

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Speaker 2: had actress read through, and al frank said, what the

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Speaker 2: fuck is this? Why was it read? He didn't realize

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Speaker 2: I was there, and you Ali, who I believe has

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Speaker 2: made more appearances on Saturday Night Live than anybody in

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Speaker 2: the history seventeen times. So you know what a killing

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Speaker 2: line that would be to hear As a writer. I

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Speaker 2: knew I was doomed, but nothing I wrote at that

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Speaker 2: show they thought was funny, not a single word. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't nothing dead silence that read through? Can you imagine.

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Speaker 1: Dead, painful silent? You were there just for half a year.

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Speaker 1: I did not even know that was possible.

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Speaker 2: Who knew, right? But Larry David lasted a half year.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Wow, you're a good company, I am.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of magazines, you warned us on the

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Speaker 1: staff of any magazines.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Esquire right outside l There were some other magazines too,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: So why did you decide you want to do the

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Speaker 1: TV show?

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Speaker 2: Well, who wouldn't want to do a TV show?

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Speaker 1: But who told you? Well? Where did the where did

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Speaker 1: the impetus come, either from yourself or from someone else

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Speaker 1: in your life to step in front of the camera

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Speaker 1: and you believed you were camera ready so to speak.

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Speaker 2: That was Roger Ailes's decision. Somebody showed him the column,

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Speaker 2: the ascgene column, and Rogers decided, well, what did he

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Speaker 2: have to lose? I mean, nobody was watching this new

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Speaker 2: network he started, which eventually became MSNBC, and he had

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Speaker 2: nothing to lose, so he just put me on TV.

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Speaker 1: To do live I mean Fox.

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Speaker 2: No, this is the new NBC channel that Roger Ailes

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Speaker 2: himself created out as nothing, and he just gave me

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Speaker 2: a live hour every day on TV. It was you know,

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Speaker 2: it was fun.

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Speaker 1: Then when you were doing that show, and you're creating

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Speaker 1: that show, and you're producing that show. Who helped you

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Speaker 1: get that thing rolling? Elke?

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Speaker 2: I had no idea what the fuck I was doing.

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Speaker 1: You know, you covered it brilliantly.

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Speaker 2: I just climbed on the sofa and started jumping up

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Speaker 2: and down, because that's it was just to bring an

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Speaker 2: advice column alive, because, as you know, an advice column

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Speaker 2: has got the hatred and passion and the love and

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Speaker 2: the jealousy, has got everything. And I thought, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: everybody's there. So I thought, I, well, you just bring

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Speaker 2: that to TV. And I tried. You know, maybe in

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Speaker 2: another couple of years I would have calmed down and

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Speaker 2: would have had a really good show.

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Speaker 1: But did someone discuss with you? Did you tell them

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Speaker 1: what kind of show you wanted to do, or did

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Speaker 1: they tell you what they expected from you?

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Speaker 2: No, Roger said, hey, Egen, go do your show. Here's

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Speaker 2: an hour. And so really my thing was to bring

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Speaker 2: the advice column alive. Everybody there was a news producer,

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Speaker 2: so we sort of stumbled around I didn't even know

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Speaker 2: what a producer was. I had no idea. So they,

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Speaker 2: of course they would get the guests, and there was

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Speaker 2: an entire staff, you know, who begged people to come

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Speaker 2: on the show.

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Speaker 1: Booking is yeah, you live and die by booking.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. It was a free for all, a free

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Speaker 2: for all on that network until it became MSNBC. So

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Speaker 2: that's how Roger did it. And then Roger left and

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Speaker 2: created the Fox News Juggernaut.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm want to read you a quote Bill Toanelli,

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Speaker 1: Esquire and Rolling Stone editor said in a nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: nine interview that you are quote institutionally incapable of being uninteresting?

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Speaker 1: Is the Egen Carroll show on TV you in real life? Well?

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Speaker 1: Did you create the Egen Carrol that stepped in front

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Speaker 1: of the camera or was that just you?

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Speaker 2: Before I started talking to you today, I was another Egen.

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Speaker 2: This is the Egen that I'm talking to Ali. As

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Speaker 2: you know, there's an Alec Baldwin that is the Barbara

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Speaker 2: Stanwick of his generation does comedy and tragedy. That's you.

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Speaker 1: I love that. I'm the Barbara Stanwick.

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Speaker 2: Barbara Stanwyck. Nobody played comedy and.

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Speaker 1: Tragedy like yeah, all of it. Yeah, she was great.

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Speaker 1: So there's the private you and the public you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there we go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a character you play.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that came up during the trial. Tell me how

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Speaker 2: how oh the defense of the president tried to take

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Speaker 2: every time I made a joke or went to a

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Speaker 2: party or said something funny in a col this woman

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Speaker 2: couldn't have suffered from the attack. Look how Look how

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Speaker 2: Mary and johny she is? That was their case. In

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Speaker 2: other words, if you're a woman and and you have

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Speaker 2: been attacked, you have to wear a shroud forever, cover

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Speaker 2: yourself and sit in a cave and never smile again,

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Speaker 2: never have a career again, don't have any friends. God knows,

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Speaker 2: you should never go to a party again. They pulled

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Speaker 2: out every single party I'd been to, which was like five,

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Speaker 2: you know, since their no it was they thought that

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Speaker 2: it was sixteen hundreds. It was the sixteen hundreds, you know,

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Speaker 2: weren't allowed to smile. What woman's life was to be over?

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Speaker 1: Well, now that you bring this up, let me just

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Speaker 1: ask you this. This is what's important to me. You have friends,

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Speaker 1: like when I live in New York, my friends with

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Speaker 1: these Rockefeller Republicans, which is less regulation on my businesses

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Speaker 1: and lower taxes, and they don't give a shit about

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Speaker 1: anything else. They don't care about same sex marriage, abortion,

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Speaker 1: the social issues don't play to them. Now, when you

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Speaker 1: went through this whole thing, or many years pass between

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Speaker 1: the event and the late nine and you were writing

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Speaker 1: your book and then going to court, did you have

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Speaker 1: friends of yours that were Republicans who were really really

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Speaker 1: disappointed or angry with you.

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Speaker 2: My mother was a Republican politician. But you know what,

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Speaker 2: and like, I never told her. She was on her deathbed.

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Speaker 2: We were all around her when Trump was running and

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Speaker 2: all those women came forward. Remember all those women came

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Speaker 2: forward after the access So I went to and so

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Speaker 2: I never told my mother because I thought it would

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Speaker 2: kill her. So she was really Remember I'm from Indiana.

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Speaker 2: I have a lot of friends who are Republicans, but

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Speaker 2: nobody said anything because they hated Donald Trump for doing it,

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Speaker 2: just hated it. They just heard it and they hated it.

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Speaker 2: So no, I got slimed by everybody else in the country,

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Speaker 2: but not by my Republican friends. No.

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Speaker 1: So, well, a lot of years go by and the

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Speaker 1: event happens, and then you write the book. Was there

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Speaker 1: some pivotal moment when you knew you had to step

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Speaker 1: up and do what you wanted to do. Because it

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Speaker 1: was almost twenty years later, what was it that made

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Speaker 1: you move forward?

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Speaker 2: Oh? It was Megan Twoian and Jodi Kantner coming out

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Speaker 2: in the New York Times with the Harvey Weinstein story. Really,

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Speaker 2: do you remember how that rocked the country? Sure, and

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Speaker 2: women stood up. Probably half the women you knew had

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Speaker 2: a story, and they suddenly started telling those stories. And

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Speaker 2: I thought, oh Jesus, women are talking. Because I'm a

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Speaker 2: silent generation woman. I was born during the Second World War,

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Speaker 2: so the last thing we would ever do is talk

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Speaker 2: about our whole thing was chin up and smile. Wow,

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Speaker 2: that was it. We expected a man to be a

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Speaker 2: little gravvy and to be a little pushy, and to

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Speaker 2: be a honey, honey, honey, and to back you up

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Speaker 2: against the wall. That's what it was like going to work. Oh,

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Speaker 2: come on, el and Jodie Katner and Megan Toury hit

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Speaker 2: the front page of the New York Times, and women,

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Speaker 2: well known women. When is Paltrow? You know, they were

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Speaker 2: coming forward with stories about Harvey Winston. Brad Pitt stepped up.

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Speaker 2: Remember when they told the story where he had called

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Speaker 2: Harvey and said, if you dare go near one, that's

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Speaker 2: one more time I will kill you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to have seen that. Oh I

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Speaker 1: don't see Brad, you know, cuddle with Harvey for a

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Speaker 1: little while.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, oh man, So they showed me what to do, so.

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Speaker 1: I did it. I'm going to see this. Sheila Nevans

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Speaker 1: is on the show. I don't respect anybody in this

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Speaker 1: business more than Shila Nevans, who single handedly crafts HBO

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Speaker 1: documentaries and is the godmother of so many documentaries. And

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Speaker 1: she talks to me about a guy, his hands on

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Speaker 1: her leg, he's on her knee, his hand's going up

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Speaker 1: her dress whatever. And I stopped and I go, what

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Speaker 1: did you do? She goes, I slept with him. I go,

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Speaker 1: are you kidding me? She goes, no, back then, that's

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Speaker 1: what you did if you wanted to get ahead.

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Speaker 2: And I thought, God, that's exactly right. And if you didn't,

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Speaker 2: you would not get the promotion.

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Speaker 1: Right. That's what she said, That's how you got ahead.

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Speaker 2: This is why women have never gained a quality because

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Speaker 2: of the sexual violence. This is why women have always

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Speaker 2: always a little lower than men.

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Speaker 1: Always at right on my show.

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Speaker 2: Believe me, Oh not in your life. You either believe

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Speaker 2: you that.

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Speaker 1: Journalist and author Agene Carroll. If you're interested in the

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Speaker 1: origins of the me Too movement on Hollywood's reckoning with

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Speaker 1: sex and power, check out my conversation with New York

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Speaker 1: Times writers Megan Chewey and Jodi Kanter.

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Speaker 3: It's really important to remember that there are two categories

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Speaker 3: of women essentially that Weinstein allegedly harasses and assaults. One

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Speaker 3: of them actresses. The second assistance women who want to

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Speaker 3: be producers, right, women who are twenty three years old,

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Speaker 3: and they are so excited because they're on there.

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Speaker 1: At the bottom of the ladder, very first.

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Speaker 3: Day at a company like Mirramax or the Weinstein Company.

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Speaker 3: This is going to be their big shot. It's so exciting,

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Speaker 3: there's so much potential here. And then boom, Harvey Weinstein

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Speaker 3: walks into the room and everything changes. And so this

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Speaker 3: is all about the actresses and the assistants.

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Speaker 2: Both.

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Speaker 3: They're coming into this with with dreams, with ideas, with ambitions,

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Speaker 3: with hopes, and he turns those hopes and ambitions against

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Speaker 3: the women. And that has to do also with the

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Speaker 3: power of the movie. Is the power of this work.

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Speaker 3: You know, what is your ticket into this world? And

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Speaker 3: how can that? You know, is your desire for entry

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Speaker 3: into this world a kind of vulnerability that can then

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Speaker 3: be turned against you.

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Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Megan Chewy and

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Speaker 1: Jodi Kanter, go to Here's the Thing dot org. After

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Speaker 1: the break, Egene Carol talks about publishing her explosive twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen book and who stood by her while so much

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Speaker 1: of the general public did not believe her accusations. I'm

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Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. In

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Speaker 1: the late nineteen nineties, Egen Carol bumped into Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: outside of Bergdorf Goodman in New York City. What started

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Speaker 1: as an impromptu shopping trip turned into a harrowing account

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Speaker 1: of sexual assault in a department store dressing room. I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know how Egene coped with such a traumatic event,

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Speaker 1: and what it's like constantly seeing her attacker, who was

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Speaker 1: also the President of the United States on television and

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Speaker 1: in media.

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Speaker 2: You know, seeing him so much, so saturated and everything.

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Speaker 2: Either I got the fuck over it and moved on

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Speaker 2: and was able to take him, or my life really

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Speaker 2: would have been over. I was so immersed in it

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Speaker 2: that I became accustomed to it, and then I didn't

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Speaker 2: even see it. That's what happens. It becomes it becomes

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Speaker 2: not a horrible it becomes something that I lived with.

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Speaker 2: You either learn to bat it away or your life

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Speaker 2: is over.

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Speaker 1: Well, now, before you press charges, before you bring a

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Speaker 1: case against him, you write the book. Yeah, but do

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Speaker 1: the imprint bulk at that idea of writing that material

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Speaker 1: about him? Were they concerned about that at all?

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Speaker 2: Legally we had that thing. Every word was gone through

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Speaker 2: by one of the great attorneys in the country.

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Speaker 1: So they backed you that imprint.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and also New York Magazine backed it. That thing

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Speaker 2: was fact checked up and down when I when I

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Speaker 2: came out with the story, it's remarkable it was in

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Speaker 2: the book. But New York Magazine excerpted that was the

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Speaker 2: thing that hit the White House. And they saw that

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Speaker 2: picture of me on the cover and like without makeup,

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Speaker 2: without makeup, and that's when he said, you know, when

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Speaker 2: you're seventy five, you don't go on the cover of

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Speaker 2: a magazine without makeup. Right. The feeling was, she's when

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Speaker 2: a woman tells the truth, she doesn't stand there in

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Speaker 2: a gob of makeup, so they put it on the

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Speaker 2: cover and there I am an elderly woman, and the

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Speaker 2: story came out, and because I looked so old, and

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Speaker 2: because I look my age, most people didn't believe me.

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Speaker 1: Really didn't believe.

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Speaker 2: You didn't believe it. You don't see an old lady

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Speaker 2: when she comes forward and talks about what happens being

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Speaker 2: attacked by a man. She's not believed Alex unless she

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Speaker 2: looks fuckable. She's got to look desirable in some way.

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Speaker 2: And they couldn't picture the snazzy, young Donald Trump attacking

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Speaker 2: this elderly crone.

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Speaker 1: I try to tell myself as I get older, that

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Speaker 1: you're fuckable to somebody out there. The task is just

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Speaker 1: to find them. Got be somebody, You got me somebody.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, hey, do you remember back in the day

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Speaker 2: when nobody was better looking than you? Nobody I found them.

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Speaker 1: I had a good month. I had a great I

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Speaker 1: had one month in the early ninety decades you had

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Speaker 1: the early nineties. I had that was good. It was

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Speaker 1: a good time.

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Speaker 2: Oh it was devastating.

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Speaker 1: I got all these questions, none of them have anything

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Speaker 1: to do with my sex life.

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Speaker 2: I mean devastating devastating.

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Speaker 1: Now let me ask you. Let me ask you this

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Speaker 1: without naming any names. Of course, there were any friends

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Speaker 1: that you relied on heavily. You must have needed good

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Speaker 1: friends to help get you through the ups and downs

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Speaker 1: of this correct. Oh yeah, Lisa Burnbaugh Lisa who I know?

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Speaker 2: Yes, And Carol Martin another you know, she broke the

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Speaker 2: glass ceiling of New York. She became the first black

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Speaker 2: woman to anchor a New York news show. And Lisa Burnbaugh. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: those two steadfast. Everybody at the Atlantic magazine Esquire Elle,

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Speaker 2: all the journalists backed me up to the hill. They

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Speaker 2: understood it. So yes, my family absolutely, my dogs, yes,

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Speaker 2: my neighbors yes. Although oddly Alick, when the last book

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Speaker 2: came out and it immediately hit the New York Times

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Speaker 2: bestseller lists, I had books and I was handing them

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Speaker 2: out to my neighbors, and I handed it to my

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Speaker 2: next door neighbor and I said, here's my latest book.

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Speaker 2: She said, what you suit? The president? She never heard

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Speaker 2: of it. You're kidding me, No, Ali, Almost nobody in

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Speaker 2: this country really has heard of it. Just a few

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Speaker 2: of us in New York know about it, but most

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Speaker 2: people so. One of the reasons why they voted for him.

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Speaker 2: They never heard he was held liable for sexual abuse.

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Speaker 2: Never heard it, never heard that he had to pay

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Speaker 2: eighty three point three million because their Instagram feed is

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Speaker 2: not showing them that fact.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting.

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Speaker 2: I never thought of them, and now there is their

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Speaker 2: Facebook feed, and now is their TikTok.

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Speaker 1: I never thought about how it was not covered widely

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Speaker 1: enough the story. Now, when you started the process to

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Speaker 1: bring charges against him, did you have earlier lawyers you

437
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: engaged with or has Robbie been your lawyer throughout?

438
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: Robbie Caplan was I hardly knew a lawyer. George Conway

439
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 2: is the one who suggested, as he said, I think

440
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 2: I know someone. That's what he said, and it turns

441
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 2: out to be Robbie Caplan, the woman who opened up

442
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 2: the way for gay rights in this country, and the

443
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: woman who at the time was trouncing the Nazis in Charlottesville.

444
00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 2: And that was a huge case, this white supremacist the Nazis.

445
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,439
Speaker 1: Remember all of them put together.

446
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,119
Speaker 2: Robbie beat them all, just fucking beat them all. And

447
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,040
Speaker 2: as you know, she's this tiny little woman, long woman

448
00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: from you know, Shaker Heights, Ohio, just mashed the Nazis,

449
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 2: and so she was the one.

450
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,919
Speaker 1: Now when you I mean, this is a tough question,

451
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: but when you walk into Bergdorfs with Trump and everything

452
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 1: horrible ensues. You're walking in there with somebody that you

453
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: thought you knew, kind of, that you had an impression of,

454
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: kind of, and the Trump you eventually meet was one

455
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: you never met before. So the Trump that you're walking into,

456
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: who was he? You thought he was just charming and

457
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: silly and fun. Yeah, he's kind of a fop boy.

458
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 2: Is that a perfect word? He actually made a joke

459
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: about himself. He was easy and up for anything, up

460
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: for a wark, and you know, playful exactly. It Come

461
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: help me by a present?

462
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 1: What am I?

463
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: I'm an advice calmnist. That's my duty to help people

464
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: buy a present. So I was real. Also he was

465
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: very pretty at that time, a huh interesting, very tall,

466
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: very handsome, very blonde, you know, in the old overcoat.

467
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:05,200
Speaker 2: He was quite pretty. It was quite fun, that's the word.

468
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 2: Taking Trump through Burgdors suggesting gifts and he's, you know,

469
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 2: yamoring about how he's thinking a buy and Burgdors.

470
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: You're there to buy a bag, he's there to buy

471
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: the store.

472
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 2: But it's just exactly what happened in the first election.

473
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 2: We thought he was a clown. Remember, we thought he

474
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 2: was light and sort of silly and a hoddler and

475
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: sort of a con mes. Yeah, that's what the world thought.

476
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: And then, like me, it turned dark. Boom, he's not

477
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: that way. He's not that way. It's like funny, funny, funny, laughing, laughing, laughing,

478
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: playful boom. Then he's sending troops into the streets. You know,

479
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: I wish people had paid attention to what I said,

480
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: you know me, and you know what two dozen other women.

481
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: Yes, I had a friend of mine told me a story.

482
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: Someone he told me about was accused of sexually attacking

483
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,840
Speaker 1: a woman in the dining room of a famous private club.

484
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: You know, linen's and posh and suits and ties, and

485
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 1: they're having lunch. The guy puts his hand under the

486
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: table and you can imagine the rest. So he's doing

487
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: this in the center dining room of this fabulous Manhattan

488
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: private club, and she goes and preses charges eventually, and

489
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: the next thing that happens is, of course, what's the

490
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: liability of the club. And I was wondering, were there

491
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 1: ever any consequences at all for Bergdorfs when this happened.

492
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,479
Speaker 2: No, Alec Bergdorf stepped up and gave Robbie kaplan the

493
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: floor plans of the sixth. No, they were extremely cooperative

494
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: and good people.

495
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: Right, great, they were good people.

496
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 2: And I know that story that you just said about.

497
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: I know that identical story from a young, really sharp

498
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 2: and beautiful young woman at club. They were sitting downstairs.

499
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 2: Trump is sitting next to her. It's a big business meeting.

500
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: She had just met him. And again the hand under

501
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 2: the table, right up her leg and going up as

502
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 2: far as he could. Right at twenty one. She had

503
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 2: just met him, right, I mean unspeakable. And of course

504
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 2: she did not officially come forward like many other women, many, many, many,

505
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: and other women didn't come forward about him.

506
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: Journalist and author Egen Carroll, if you're enjoying this conversation,

507
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,840
Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow. Here's the

508
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: thing on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get

509
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: your podcasts. When we come back, Egene Carroll reflects on

510
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: her life and tells us what advice she would or

511
00:28:48,120 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't give to her younger self. I'm Alec Baldwin, and

512
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: this is here's the thing. El magazine first published the

513
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: Ask Egen advice column in nineteen ninety three. In the column,

514
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 1: Egen Carol spoke to readers with her opinions and advice

515
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: on sex, feminism, and their various life situations. Her column

516
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:26,719
Speaker 1: was widely read and acclaimed for being compassionate, fearless, and inspiring. Now,

517
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: thirty two years after ask Egen began, I was curious

518
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: what advice Egen Carol would give to her younger self.

519
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: To my younger self, I want need advice from my

520
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: younger self. My younger self was great. I love my

521
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: younger I write my younger self just to advise me,

522
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: to say, Egene, you're having a great time. Enjoy the

523
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: end of the world. That's the thing yourself, it's going

524
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 2: to say, of the world, let's party. Yeah, I don't.

525
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: I have no advice to that young woman. She was

526
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 2: full of beans, and I really I liked her, And

527
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 2: I liked you when you were younger. I like you

528
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 2: even better now. So yeah, none of those writing letters

529
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: to younger selves, because interesting, the younger selves had it all.

530
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: Why so are we going to give those fucking younger people? No,

531
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,560
Speaker 2: we can listen to them well, you got seven kids.

532
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 2: You can listen to them.

533
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I need some advice, not from my children,

534
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: although they keep giving it to me.

535
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 2: Can I ask one question, alec Yes, please. The family

536
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: you've created, is it like your family that you had

537
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: when you were growing up on Long Island?

538
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: Well not really, because my dad had a job where

539
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: he was not home until the very end of the day,

540
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: and as a result, I would wait up. I had

541
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 1: this silly game. My mother was too exhausted and emotionally

542
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: spent to really really parent me in a way, so

543
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 1: I would literally talk to my mother and I said

544
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: the most idiotic things to my mother. When I look back,

545
00:30:58,160 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: I'd say, I'm going to stay up and let dad.

546
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna wait up for dad. Everyone in my house

547
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: is asleep. My dad came home, he'd lay on the

548
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: couch and he'd say to me, and this is the

549
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: part of why I wanted to be an actor. And

550
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: he'd lay on the couch and he'd have the New

551
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: York Times in his hand, that with those fiffy TV

552
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: reviews of the movies and reviews, and he sit there

553
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: and go, Wow, how green was my valley? That's a

554
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: great movie. And I'd say, let's watch it, and he said, no, no, no,

555
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 1: you gotta go to bed. It's eleven thirty. You gotta go.

556
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: You gotta go to bed now. And I go, come on,

557
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: let's just watch ten minutes and he say, okay, ten

558
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: minutes and then he'd pass out and fall asleep.

559
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 2: Oh and you see.

560
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: And I would watch Five Graves to Cairo. I'd watch

561
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: How Green was My Valley? I watched Sorry, Wrong Number,

562
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: I watched a Red River. I watched every old movie

563
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: on TV for years, City for Conquest. I watched all

564
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: the great old studio movies, gangster movies. And that was

565
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: the beginning of me wanted to be an actor.

566
00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 2: So that's interesting. Say you have your career, which is

567
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: a lot of movies and a lot of hit TV.

568
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: So it comes from this childhood and watching these great

569
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: movies and then watching you know, Dinah Shore and all that.

570
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: Because you're exactly Mike Douglas.

571
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: Everything you're nerved with it. I watch. The thing is,

572
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: when I was young, I watched anything. I watched the

573
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: news with John Chancellor, with my father, I watched everything everything.

574
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: Now I want to say to you, thank you you

575
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: are and you've heard this ad infinite And what a

576
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: hero you are to women who've suffered through this because

577
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: you hung in there under much stress and abuse and

578
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: were rewarded. You are a hero obviously to people of

579
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 1: this movement that crested during your proceedings and Canter and Twey,

580
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: and you're a great hero to a lot of women

581
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: because you fought, You fought for yourself.

582
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: Thank you person. Can I tell you something, Yes, you

583
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: are the only journalist, the only interviewer I think of

584
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: you as a journalist. You're the only person who never

585
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 2: said to me, Egene, when are you getting your money?

586
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: You're the only one because they don't understand. To me,

587
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: it was proving he was a liar. That was the thing.

588
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: That was the thing. I proved it. I proved it.

589
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 2: So we're going to get the money. But I don't

590
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 2: understand why everybody's panties are in such a twist about

591
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: getting this money.

592
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: Right. Well, well we'll know, you know, I we'll know.

593
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: We'll do. You got the money, we'll do another interview

594
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: and there'll be a lot of cashmere blankets on those

595
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: chairs behind you.

596
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: Oh dude, can you imagine? These are so many Wrangler

597
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: wool shirts a before we go. Yes, I've got a

598
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 2: new project, the end of the world. Sometimes I look

599
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 2: at it as a merry event. Sometimes I think, oh no.

600
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's global warming, sometimes it's a nuclear threat. Sometimes

601
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: it's the collapse of the government. You know, every day

602
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,719
Speaker 2: it's a different thing. But I want to know the

603
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: fun things you would do at the end of the world.

604
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: Probably sit on the couch and watch reruns of The

605
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: Dinah Shore Show. That's when I was happiest. My younger

606
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: self was a far happier than my adults, far happier

607
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: when I was younger.

608
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: Ali, that is a breakthrough. May I talk to you

609
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,799
Speaker 2: later in a couple of months about this.

610
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have dinner with Robbie perfect. I love it.

611
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 1: I love it too, all right, listen, you take good

612
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: care of yourself, and I want to send you my

613
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: very best of my sincere thanks for doing the show.

614
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

615
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 2: I loved every minute, every fucking minute. I love it.

616
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.

617
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: My thanks to author and journalist Egene Carroll. This episode

618
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: was recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. Were

619
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,760
Speaker 1: produced by Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Victoria de Martin.

620
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is

621
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: Danielle Gingrich. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing that is

622
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: brought to you by Ihearts Video