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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking economic cheat codes for everyday life with

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Speaker 1: Darryl Fairweather.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are joined today by Darryl Fairweather, who is

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Speaker 2: the chief economist over at Redfinn. Everybody knows about Redfinn.

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Speaker 2: Before that, she was the senior economist at Amazon. And

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Speaker 2: before that she was a researcher at the Federal Reserve

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Speaker 2: Bank of Boston, and she worked with Freakonomics author Steven

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Speaker 2: Levitt stepping back in time there. But now she has

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Speaker 2: a new book that just came out, that actually came

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Speaker 2: out last week, Hate the Game Economic Cheat Codes for Life,

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Speaker 2: Love and Work, and Man. This book is all about

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Speaker 2: helping folks to use game theory and behavioral science to

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Speaker 2: lay out all the options as we approach these inevitable

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Speaker 2: forks in the road in the road of life, like

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Speaker 2: getting married and having kids or not doing those things,

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Speaker 2: going for a promotion or looking for a new job,

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Speaker 2: whether or not you should move. You know, these are

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Speaker 2: like run of the mill, low stakes decisions we have

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Speaker 2: to make a Lafe Joel. Basically, Daryl is wanting to

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Speaker 2: help folks to win at whatever game in life. That

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Speaker 2: they're playing, and we're excited to talk about all of

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Speaker 2: that and more today. Darryl, thank you for joining How

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Speaker 2: to Money.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Oh we're stoked for this conversation, Darryl. First question, though,

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Speaker 1: we ask everybody who comes on, what do you like

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Speaker 1: to suplore John? For Matt and I, it's craft beer.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we got a couple of other things in our

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Speaker 1: arsenal that we like to spend money on too, but

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Speaker 1: craft beer has been one of those mainstays. What is

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Speaker 1: it that you spend money on? Maybe egregiously, but you're

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Speaker 1: still hey, doing the smart thing, saving the investing for

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Speaker 1: your future too.

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Speaker 3: I definitely have a lot of subscriptions, Like streaming subscriptions

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Speaker 3: is one of those where I'm like, do I really

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Speaker 3: need to be subscribed to all these different services? And

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Speaker 3: then I even have a Whoop subscription, which is like

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Speaker 3: tracking my sleep and tracking my workout. And I'm a

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Speaker 3: data junkie, so part of you know, spending money every

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Speaker 3: month to collect data on myself is definitely feeding into that.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I question why I spend so much money.

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Speaker 3: I could be doing it by hand. I could just

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Speaker 3: be like paying attention more. I don't know if I

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Speaker 3: need really the Whoop, but yeah, I keep it.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know that you had to. Yeah, is that right?

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Speaker 2: You have to set up for a year. I was

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Speaker 2: talking to a buddy and he was just like, well,

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Speaker 2: I did the Whoop thing, so I'm going to see

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Speaker 2: it to the end of the to the subscription. What

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Speaker 2: is like the timeframe there? Because Joel and I both

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Speaker 2: have garments and it's totally free, but I'm guessing that

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Speaker 2: there's additional data that you're getting with Whoop. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: With Woop, I think it's like I think it's like

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Speaker 3: thirty dollars a month, and then they give you a

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Speaker 3: discount if you sign up for an entire year, and

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Speaker 3: then I think they give you a discount when you're

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Speaker 3: first signing up and buying the device. I had friends

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Speaker 3: who had them, and I got in with like their

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Speaker 3: little competitions, and yeah, I got roped in and now

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Speaker 3: I'm locked in. I've had it for years now.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing how there's like a social media aspect of

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Speaker 1: fitness these days. Like I feel that with the garment,

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Speaker 1: like my friends have garments were I'll see like the

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Speaker 1: stuff that they're up to, and I just never thought,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I guess I didn't suspect those going

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Speaker 1: to be the case. It is interesting, and then you're

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Speaker 1: kind of tied into this network effect of the whoop now,

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Speaker 1: which I don't know. Giving that up is feels like

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Speaker 1: more than just get relieving yourself of a monthly payment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really easy for me to justify it too,

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Speaker 3: because it's for my health, Like I'm spending money on

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Speaker 3: my health. That's a good thing. But yeah, I don't

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Speaker 3: know when I think it's in terms of all the

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Speaker 3: subscriptions I have, that's the one that costs more than

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Speaker 3: the others and feels kind of the most frivolous.

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Speaker 4: All right, I.

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Speaker 2: Would have expected like the Netflix subscription or Apple Plus.

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Speaker 2: Now that severance is, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm not cutting those those are mandatory.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, i'volous. Must have something else. Actually, on a personal

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Speaker 2: note that you're into, you're an avid board gamer. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like it comes up a few times in your book,

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Speaker 2: So I guess another small thing here, do you have

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Speaker 2: any favorite board games? And maybe make the link between

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Speaker 2: the decision making process matrix, the gaming process and economics

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Speaker 2: kind of bridge that for us.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I got into board games back in college and

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Speaker 3: graduate school, playing with a lot of economists all the time,

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Speaker 3: and we're very competitive with our board games because I

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Speaker 3: think that we think about the costs and benefits the

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Speaker 3: same way we think about a lot of things in life.

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Speaker 3: The games that I like the most, there's one called

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Speaker 3: Castles of Burgundy. If there are any Euro game fans

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Speaker 3: out there, you're kind of building your little, your little

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Speaker 3: fiefdom with tiles and you're playing against another person. I

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Speaker 3: like that game because I'm good at it. Any game

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Speaker 3: that I'm good at.

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Speaker 1: That's try to like any game I win frequently come

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Speaker 1: in for that. I played Castles of Burgundy once, but

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Speaker 1: it's been a minute, and I just don't play as

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Speaker 1: many board games as I used to. But every year

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Speaker 1: when we take our annual How the Money family vacation,

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Speaker 1: we lond up a few board games we end. Lately,

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Speaker 1: we've been playing a lot of Acchoir. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: played that one?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I have that board game. It's actually in my stack

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Speaker 3: right behind me.

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Speaker 4: It's a really good one. Nice. I love that she's

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Speaker 4: got a stack.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like most economists have nerdy textbooks, and she's got

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Speaker 2: those two. But yeah, the predominant feature in the bookshelf

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Speaker 2: stack of games.

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Speaker 4: It does.

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Speaker 1: I like, I got to go to bed earlier than

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Speaker 1: ever before, and so late night board game sessions it's

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Speaker 1: very harder to come by, but I missed those days.

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Speaker 4: They're so fun. Daryl.

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about your book, and specifically a book that

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Speaker 1: had an influence on you before you started writing this

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Speaker 1: book was Freakonomics. It feels like, as someone who you

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Speaker 1: kind of write about this. At the beginning of your book,

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Speaker 1: you were an aspiring economist. Freakonomics pushed you further in

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Speaker 1: that direction, and maybe your family wasn't so thrilled about

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Speaker 1: that too.

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Speaker 4: Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yes, Freakonomics came out twenty years ago, believe it or not,

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Speaker 3: and that was the same time that I was getting

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Speaker 3: ready to go to college. I had always been interested

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Speaker 3: in math and science, and I thought that's what I

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Speaker 3: was going to pursue. That's why I applied to MIT.

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Speaker 3: I was headed to MIT, but then on the way

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Speaker 3: to MIT, my dad hands me the book of Freakonomics

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Speaker 3: and just says, like, hey, this guy, you know, he

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Speaker 3: went to MIT, maybe you'd be interested in this. So

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Speaker 3: I read the book on the plane ride there and

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Speaker 3: immediately I was like, this is what I wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: I was, I felt like I was.

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Speaker 2: I was always.

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Speaker 3: Interested in the way that people behave, but it was

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Speaker 3: just really hard for me to wrap my head around

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Speaker 3: it without the math part, which is what I was

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Speaker 3: also interested in. But Economics really brings it together. It

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Speaker 3: applies this mathematical framework, this analytical framework, to the way

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Speaker 3: that people interact with one another, and all those interactions

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Speaker 3: make up the economy. And that book was just the

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Speaker 3: one that kind of broke it opened for me and

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Speaker 3: made me realize what economics is. It's not just about

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Speaker 3: the stock market or GDP, It's really about human behavior.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I like how you mentioned how economists are essentially

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Speaker 2: like profits and they explain human behavior and basically how

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Speaker 2: the world works, which I've never really thought about it

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Speaker 2: that way, where you're just kind of it almost allows

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Speaker 2: you to like peer into the future and make pretty accurate,

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Speaker 2: I guess predictions as to what might happen on that note. Well,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to ask you to make a prediction,

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Speaker 2: I guess, but maybe just the current state of the

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Speaker 2: housing market. You're the chief economists over there at redfin

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Speaker 2: and this is a massive question. But what's going on

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Speaker 2: when it comes to housing just the current state of

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Speaker 2: things prices? Can you touch on that for a minute.

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Speaker 3: The housing market has been distorted since at least the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you can argue it goes even farther back

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Speaker 3: to the foreclosure crisis in the Great Recession, but I'll

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Speaker 3: start with the pandemic. During the pandemic, interest rates fell

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Speaker 3: to record lows, which made borrowing to buy a home

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Speaker 3: historically cheap, and anybody who could buy a home was

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Speaker 3: buying a home. People were buying multiple homes, people were

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Speaker 3: buying vacation homes, people were moving because of remote work,

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Speaker 3: and we had all us activity in the housing market.

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Speaker 3: But then by twenty twenty three, inflation was the problem,

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Speaker 3: not unemployment, and so the Federal Reserve had to raise

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Speaker 3: interest rates that sent mortgage rates high. They increased by

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Speaker 3: like the highest percentage historically, and home buying became unaffordable.

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Speaker 3: Like it was a very sharp turn. And now homeowners

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Speaker 3: don't want to sell because they were able to refinance

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Speaker 3: into record loan mortgage rates during the pandemic, so their

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Speaker 3: payments are still quite cheap, so they don't want to

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Speaker 3: give that up because if they got gave it up

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Speaker 3: and bought again, they would have to buy at these

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Speaker 3: really high ends. So nobody wants to sell. People don't

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Speaker 3: want to buy because interest rates are high, and it's

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Speaker 3: just more affordable to rent right now in most metro areas.

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Speaker 3: So we're just stuck in this place where there's very

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Speaker 3: few transactions happening. Home values are remaining high, though, because

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Speaker 3: it's both supply and demand that have pulled back. It's

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Speaker 3: not like during the Great Recession, where there was no

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Speaker 3: demand but there was still lots of supply and that

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Speaker 3: caused values to fall. Values are still propped up by

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Speaker 3: the fact that homeowners don't want to give up their homes.

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Speaker 3: So we're just kind of stuck right now, and it's

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Speaker 3: going to take interest rates falling or you know, new

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Speaker 3: construction really taking off in order for this to break free.

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Speaker 1: So you say that we're kind of stuck, and I

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Speaker 1: think you're right. It does feel like just everything ground

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Speaker 1: to a halt in the housing market. But when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the and I think crisis is an overused term,

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Speaker 1: but maybe the affordability crisis in housing, Are there any

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Speaker 1: signs of relief? I'm going to look at a city

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Speaker 1: like Austin and you see pretty significant declines at least

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Speaker 1: in the amount of rent that can be asked year

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Speaker 1: over year. But then there are and that's due to

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Speaker 1: it seems like a cutting back of red tape. What

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Speaker 1: do you see moving forward when it comes to rent

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Speaker 1: and housing prices, and is that in a very city

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Speaker 1: of the city.

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Speaker 3: Austin is a great example of a place that where

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Speaker 3: demand increase during the pandemic, and because building is allowed there,

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Speaker 3: it's just easier to build there than is in other

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Speaker 3: parts of the country. We saw an increase in new construction,

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Speaker 3: and that increase in supply made it possible for rents

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Speaker 3: to come back down after they had gone up in

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Speaker 3: other parts of the country, like in California, when demand

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Speaker 3: goes up, it just leads to higher prices because supply

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Speaker 3: can't react, and that's largely due to regulations like single

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Speaker 3: family zoning and the permitting processes that are there. So

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Speaker 3: I think the lesson from that is that you have

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Speaker 3: to make it easy to build because you know the

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Speaker 3: next time there's going to be an increase in demand,

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Speaker 3: either when rates fall or the economy is just doing

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Speaker 3: really well, it will inevitably lead to higher prices unless

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Speaker 3: we see an increase in supply reacting to it. So

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Speaker 3: I think a lot of states of like made progress there,

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Speaker 3: but there's still a lot of progress to be made.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so, I mean, as you touched on supply,

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Speaker 2: I think about the wildfires out in California and even

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Speaker 2: Hurricane Helene damaged something like eighty I think around eighty

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Speaker 2: thousand homes kind of along its path of destruction. How

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Speaker 2: does something like that impact the supply of homes? Obviously

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Speaker 2: you got homes that are completely destroyed and so they're

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Speaker 2: not available, But even damaged homes, I feel like, at

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Speaker 2: least temporarily, it kind of takes them off the market.

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Speaker 2: Is that something that feels more localized or does that

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Speaker 2: have larger impacts on the supply of housing across the

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Speaker 2: country as well?

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Speaker 3: It does have large impacts. We're already in a vulnerable

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Speaker 3: position because of how unaffordable housing is. So climate change

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Speaker 3: is inevitably going to make housing even less affordable because

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Speaker 3: the cost of maintenance is going to increase with changing

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Speaker 3: weather patterns. Like homes that were built for certain climates

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Speaker 3: and then the climate changes, they need to be retrofitted

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Speaker 3: and then it also makes insurance more expensive, and it

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Speaker 3: literally like pulls homes out of the supply of housing

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Speaker 3: if they're destroyed and then not be built. So all

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Speaker 3: of that just makes housing more expensive, and we're seeing

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Speaker 3: that in California how insurance premiums are going up. Insurance

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Speaker 3: premiums are also going up in Florida and in Texas.

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Speaker 3: But there are certain parts of the country where the

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Speaker 3: climate could potentially become more appealing and values will go

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Speaker 3: up as people decide to move to those places. So

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Speaker 3: it really is going to have an effect on the

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Speaker 3: entire country. There is no neighborhood that isn't going to

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Speaker 3: be impacted one way or the other by climate change,

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Speaker 3: and their housing markets are going to be impacted too.

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Speaker 1: It's like if Minnesota becomes a little more balmby here,

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Speaker 1: it starts to look a little more appealing. Oh, the

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Speaker 1: Great Lakes. I've never been up there, but it seems

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Speaker 1: quite nice now we're not frozen over half the year.

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Speaker 4: It might be interested.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious too, Darrell. Something else that was proposed recently,

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Speaker 1: a Trump administration proposal was to use federal lands to

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Speaker 1: build more housing supply, And is that going to make

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Speaker 1: a dent in the housing issues that we have in

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Speaker 1: this country because obviously applying demand like we just don't

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Speaker 1: have enough supply. We're millions of units short, it seems.

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Speaker 1: But on the other side, is the supply coming where

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Speaker 1: it's most needed.

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Speaker 3: Federal land tends to be in parts of the country

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Speaker 3: that don't have access to amenities like city amenities. They

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Speaker 3: might not even have access to roads to begin with.

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Speaker 3: So I think developing, yeah, that kind of land, it's

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Speaker 3: not the high value land. If it was high value,

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Speaker 3: it wouldn't be federal land. It would have already there

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Speaker 3: would have already been a push to develop it. So

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Speaker 3: I think that it's not really solving the real problem,

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Speaker 3: which is how expensive housing is. In the most productive

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Speaker 3: cities in the United States, like New York, Los Angeles,

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Speaker 3: San Francisco, there is some federal land in those areas.

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Speaker 3: It's like post offices and federal buildings, and I think

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Speaker 3: that the idea of densifying those types of buildings and

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Speaker 3: allowing there to be mixed use housing, mixed use development

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Speaker 3: with like a federal building and then housing on top

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Speaker 3: of it, I think is a really interesting idea that

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Speaker 3: we should just allow. I think the default should be

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Speaker 3: that we allow housing on more lots of land, especially

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Speaker 3: if it's near places that people want to live.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just by default say yes, and then if there's problems,

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Speaker 2: we'll figure it out. That seems much more appealing to

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Speaker 2: me than living in an Oppenheimer like desert town that

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Speaker 2: gets erected in Utah or something.

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Speaker 4: Like that in New Mexico.

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Speaker 2: But right, yeah, which is what I pictured, beautiful hours

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Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 1: But I like the idea of the post office being

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Speaker 1: on the bottom floor of like a high rise. Like

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Speaker 1: think about that. That sounds like maybe what you're suggesting, Darryl.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes, yes, talk to us about the rule of

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Speaker 2: thumb for a housing budget. You talk about this in

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Speaker 2: chapter five of your new book. But has your advice

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Speaker 2: on that changed as we have seen cost rise faster

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Speaker 2: than we've seen wages go up.

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Speaker 3: The rule of thumb is that you shouldn't spend more

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Speaker 3: than thirty percent of your pre tax income on housing.

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Speaker 3: But the reality is that the majority of renters are

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Speaker 3: spending more of that on their rent. So I think

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Speaker 3: that that was the rule of thumb, you know, fifteen

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Speaker 3: twenty years ago, and people were able to meet that,

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Speaker 3: but now a lot of people just it just feels

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Speaker 3: like so out of reach for them. So what I

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Speaker 3: advise people to do is to go through their spending

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Speaker 3: habits on a monthly basis, like pull it up your

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Speaker 3: credit card transactions or your bank statements, or use software

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Speaker 3: that's out there, and just look at how much you're

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Speaker 3: spending on each category. And then when you're thinking about

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Speaker 3: moving somewhere new, think about how all those categories could change,

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Speaker 3: because it's not just the housing payment. If you're moving

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Speaker 3: somewhere with public transit, you might not be spending money

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Speaker 3: on your car or on gas anymore. Or if you're

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Speaker 3: moving somewhere that's smaller, then maybe your energy bill is

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Speaker 3: not going to be as big compared to somewhere that's larger.

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Speaker 3: So I think every category deserves evaluation and taken in

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Speaker 3: and taken in because that thirty percent rule is really, just,

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Speaker 3: like I think, more something that academics use to understand

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Speaker 3: how many people are struggling. But at a personal level,

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Speaker 3: you just have to make do with what options are

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Speaker 3: available to you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I realized I'm asking this question of someone who

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Speaker 1: is an economist at a real estate website. But I

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Speaker 1: think in this country, at least, home ownership like this

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Speaker 1: ride of passage for a lot of people, and the

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Speaker 1: majority of individual wealth is often tied to equity in

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Speaker 1: a home, which we don't think is a good thing,

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Speaker 1: but it's a reality. Have we just overly deified home

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Speaker 1: ownership in the US. Is that part of the problem.

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Speaker 1: We've made home ownership seem like it's a prerequisite to

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Speaker 1: live the American dream?

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Speaker 3: Yes, And I think it like goes back to the

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Speaker 3: founding of our country how people with property were the

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Speaker 3: ones who are allowed to vote initially. It's it's just

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Speaker 3: seen as like a step into having wealth or being

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Speaker 3: in the middle class when you own property, and the

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Speaker 3: first piece of property that people own is typically their

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Speaker 3: own home. So yeah, I think that there's really, from

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Speaker 3: an economic standpoint, no reason to glorify housing. It's actually,

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Speaker 3: you know, unadvisable to put all of your money into

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Speaker 3: one undiversified asset. You can see that with climate risk.

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Speaker 3: So if we reimagine like how we want people to

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Speaker 3: build wealth and look at all the different ways to

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Speaker 3: invest besides home ownership, I think we'd be a better

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Speaker 3: position as an economy.

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Speaker 4: Totally agree.

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Speaker 2: When you buy a home, though, like you're oftentimes doing

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Speaker 2: it for personal reasons, not necessarily from like a wealth

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Speaker 2: building standpoint that although that is a positive proxy results. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I guess when you are looking at it as

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Speaker 2: a primary residence, Like one of the problems when it

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Speaker 2: comes to especially like when you're bidding on a house

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Speaker 2: is getting emotionally attached and you say to watch out

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Speaker 2: for that, which is it's easier than done. But do

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Speaker 2: you have any tips for avoiding like envisioning ourselves in

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Speaker 2: a home as you're going out there as your house shopping,

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Speaker 2: because that can lead to perhaps, yeah, maybe you overpaying

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Speaker 2: for that house. Yes.

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Speaker 3: My My first piece of advice is to do a

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Speaker 3: lot of your thinking before you even start your home search,

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Speaker 3: setting your budget, talking to a mortgage lender to understand,

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Speaker 3: like if you what you qualify in terms of your loan,

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Speaker 3: going through whatever your must haves versus your nice to havebs,

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Speaker 3: looking at homes that are available for salor that recently sold,

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Speaker 3: an understanding if your budget makes sense given what is

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Speaker 3: that you want, and then start your home search with

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Speaker 3: an idea in mind of like this is how much

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Speaker 3: I'm going to pay and these are the home features

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Speaker 3: that are most important to me. When you find the

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Speaker 3: home that fits all that criteria and you're starting to

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Speaker 3: fall in love, I would definitely advise you to slow down, Like,

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Speaker 3: don't start imagining Thanksgiving dinners or happy family memories there

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Speaker 3: because it's not your home yet, and there are going

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Speaker 3: to be other people, yeah, making offers on this home,

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Speaker 3: and you could get in a situation where you end

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Speaker 3: up overbidding because you are already become attached to it.

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Speaker 3: And there's a lot of behavioral economics research about how

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Speaker 3: once you own something, you tend to overvalue it. So

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Speaker 3: just kind of stay attached. Yeah, it's not yours yet,

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Speaker 3: that's my biggest advice.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I think so, like a true economist, remove

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Speaker 2: the emotion, remove those feelings, right, look at the numbers.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you just mentioned in there too

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Speaker 1: was talking to a mortgage broker. And this is one

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Speaker 1: of those things that I feel like it's so underplayed,

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Speaker 1: is to talk to a few different lenders and get

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Speaker 1: quotes because of how much it can save you. Like,

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Speaker 1: the stakes are so high, so much higher than almost

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Speaker 1: anything else we buy, than really anything else we buy.

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Speaker 1: So let's say you go to a credit union to

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Speaker 1: get a loan for a car instead of getting it

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Speaker 1: at the dealership. Sure, save a couple percentage points on

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Speaker 1: the APR right at the rate of the loan, But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to your mortgage loan, just because of

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Speaker 1: the balance, the amount of money you're borrowing, it can

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Speaker 1: be significant. Is that something that people From everything I've read,

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Speaker 1: it seems like people don't do that enough.

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Speaker 4: Do you agree?

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Speaker 3: I think that everybody should shop around. I think it's

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Speaker 3: easier now than it used to be because there are

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Speaker 3: so many websites and there's so much comparative shopping you

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Speaker 3: can do online. But I do think that there are

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Speaker 3: people who just go straight to whatever their bank is

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Speaker 3: and ask them what they can borrow, and they think that,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is my bank. They've been good to

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Speaker 3: me before. Why wouldn't I not go to them for

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Speaker 3: my home loan, not realizing that the bank is giving

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Speaker 3: you a much higher rate than what maybe a different

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Speaker 3: lender would give you. So I definitely advise people to

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Speaker 3: shop around. It's easy to do online, get at least

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Speaker 3: three different opinions, and then the other thing to consider,

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Speaker 3: because there are some differences between lenders, is just how

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Speaker 3: responsive they are. If you like the software in terms

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Speaker 3: of uploading your documents, and you know they are. They

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Speaker 3: doing a good job explaining it to you what you

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Speaker 3: can afford. I think if they're hitting all those criteria,

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Speaker 3: then the next thing is just to focus on the

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Speaker 3: price that they're giving you guys.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, the rate.

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Speaker 2: You also write about being smart when you are selling

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Speaker 2: at home, and you mentioned renovating, how do you think

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Speaker 2: about the ROI and whether renovations that you're considering whether

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Speaker 2: they're going to pay off when it comes to a

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Speaker 2: higher sales price.

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Speaker 3: Not all investments have an ROI, and I think it's

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Speaker 3: kind of unfortunate, but the things that tend to have

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Speaker 3: the ROI tend to be those really visual things where

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Speaker 3: if somebody is looking at the listing online or they're

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Speaker 3: walking through the home, that are just kind of a

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Speaker 3: turn off, like old paint, for example. It's really easy

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Speaker 3: to repaint your house, but can make it just look fresher, newer,

438
00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:04,919
Speaker 3: and more appealing. Those hidden things like say redoing the

439
00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 3: electrical they're really costly and they might not pay off unfortunately.

440
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 3: So I think just talking to your agent can help

441
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 3: you evaluate what investments are going to be paid, are

442
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 3: going to have a payoff. Also understanding the market and

443
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 3: really competitive markets it you don't really need to do

444
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 3: that much specialty your home to get it sold. In

445
00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 3: weaker markets, you do have to make sure that the

446
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 3: home is moving ready if you want to attract a buyer.

447
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 1: I'm thinking putting in on your listing. At the very top,

448
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 1: we just put new insulation in. It's It's true that

449
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: it'll be super sexy, yeah, next home, but they're trying

450
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 1: to imagine themselves at the thanksgaming dinner table in that home,

451
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 1: just like we don't want to imagine ourselves in that situation.

452
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 1: You want as a guest, as a seller, other people

453
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 1: thinking that about your house. And so it's when you

454
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: look at kind of the annual studies that come out

455
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 1: about what renovations make the most, offer the most bang

456
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,320
Speaker 1: for the buck. The thing and I've noticed in recent

457
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: years is that it's garage doors that tend to be

458
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 1: to offer the biggest bang, Like that people actually make

459
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 1: more than what they spend on the garage door. Is

460
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,200
Speaker 1: that just because it's such a big piece of curb appeal.

461
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 3: Yes, I think curb appeal matters a lot in real estate.

462
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 3: And yeah, those newer garage doors they have, like the

463
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 3: windows on them, they come in different colors. I think

464
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 3: that they they do just make the overall home look newer,

465
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,680
Speaker 3: And I think new is what people tend to gravitate towards.

466
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 2: Which is why Joel I just got done not too

467
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 2: long ago, why I painted my garage door. Yeah, looks

468
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,000
Speaker 2: like a brand new, gradual, cheaper way to get the bang.

469
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 4: Yeah.

470
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,040
Speaker 2: Although, oh yeah, we won't get into this there. But

471
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,800
Speaker 2: they also sell like these little window these magnet kits

472
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,479
Speaker 2: where it looks like there's windows in your garage, you

473
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,320
Speaker 2: like slap on it, like the fake carriage handles on there.

474
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:46,600
Speaker 2: I was just like, Babe, we're.

475
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 4: Not going to do that.

476
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 2: Come on, We're not here to create the false illusion.

477
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 2: But Drek, we've got more to get to. We're gonna

478
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 2: continue to discuss just the intersection of economics and everyday life.

479
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:07,399
Speaker 4: Will get to that more. Right after this, we're back

480
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 4: from the break.

481
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: We're still talking with Daryl Fairweather talking about we just

482
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: got done talking about the housing market. There's so much

483
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 1: more to discuss, though, so much more that Daryl covers

484
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,360
Speaker 1: in her new book that's really worth checking out. It's

485
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 1: called Hate the Game. And Daryl in this book, you

486
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 1: really you focus on the fact that that and you

487
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: mentioned this kind of at the very beginning of our conversation.

488
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: Do you feel like economics has something to say about

489
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: like everything we do or and does it have predictive

490
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: powers where if we were just a little more in

491
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: tune with economic realities that we would stand to gain

492
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 1: an edge.

493
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 3: I think economics has a lot to do with anytime

494
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 3: there's a limited resource and there are people who want it,

495
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: that explains that economics can explain it. And you see

496
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 3: that in so many different settings. You obviously see it

497
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 3: and say investment, you see it in the labor market,

498
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 3: but you also see it in romantic interactions too, that

499
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 3: two people want something. Maybe it's different things and there's

500
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,520
Speaker 3: a conflict that happens. But I don't think it applies

501
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 3: to like nearly everything. I do try to like stay

502
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 3: in my lane somewhat and not pipe up on things

503
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 3: I'm not an expert on. But economics it touches so

504
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 3: many things. It gives me a lot to talk about.

505
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 4: It's funny.

506
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 1: I'm reading a book by Thomas soul right now, Applied Economics,

507
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 1: and he talks about how economics applies to healthcare, but

508
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: then also it's immigration, and he gives just like not

509
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:28,680
Speaker 1: only first order effects, but second and third order effects.

510
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 1: How do you think about the role that I think

511
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: sometimes people can think of an initial reality that might

512
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,960
Speaker 1: happen if we change this one thing. It's like, oh,

513
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:38,199
Speaker 1: it's going to do this and it's going to be

514
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: so good. But then there are oftentimes secondary and third

515
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: like just cascading reality of impacts of economic decisions. But

516
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, as humans, we tend to really only

517
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 1: be able to visualize kind of the first set of

518
00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: things of consequences.

519
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 3: Yes, this is the law of unintended consequences. When it

520
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 3: comes to incentives and economics, you can bet that people

521
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,680
Speaker 3: are going to respond to incentives. So if you change

522
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: the incentives, people's behaviors will change. If, for example, you

523
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 3: make a product illegal, it's not just that people are

524
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 3: no longer going to consume that product. You can expect

525
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 3: some of the consumption to go underground. So I think

526
00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 3: just thinking through the way that people change their behavior

527
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Speaker 3: when you change a law, or change a policy, or

528
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,880
Speaker 3: just change anything, can help you avoid that pitfall of

529
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 3: not thinking through the unintended consequences.

530
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like this higher level of thinking. Like on

531
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: that note one line that you write in your book,

532
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 2: the decisions you make in one game often impact your

533
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: ability to attain your objectives in other games. And that's

534
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 2: when you were talking about finding balance in life. Can

535
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: you talk about that, just like the trade offs of

536
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: let's say, balancing career, success and family, and how that

537
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 2: can have an impact on some of the other areas

538
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 2: of life, sometimes without intending to.

539
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 4: Of course, Yeah, there's this.

540
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 3: Trope with women, right having it all means having the family,

541
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: having the career, and doing all the things at the

542
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,199
Speaker 3: same time. But the reality is that you have to

543
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 3: make trade offs. And I think one of the most

544
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: important things you can do in your life and career

545
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 3: is figuring out what is that you value most and

546
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 3: then being okay with making a trade off to get

547
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 3: what you really want. And I think, I mean, at

548
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 3: least in my life I have, I feel like struck

549
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 3: that balance with family and career, but I have had

550
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 3: to have strong boundaries in both because I'm not going

551
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: to be able to like be everything to everyone all

552
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 3: the time. But that's again it goes back to economics.

553
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 3: There are constraints, there are trade offs that you have

554
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: to make and you have to know what you value

555
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 3: to really optimize.

556
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 2: Small personal follow up there, So you say that you

557
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:39,919
Speaker 2: feel like that you've found that balance yourself, do you

558
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: ever doubt that, Like, like, when you're it sounds like

559
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,719
Speaker 2: you know, you're incredibly successful. It sounds like you've got

560
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: nice family life as well. Do you ever look at

561
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: your life and you're like, wait a minute, it almost

562
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: seems like things are going too well.

563
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 4: I guess I'm just curious.

564
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 2: They're just a little peak at your personal life and

565
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 2: whether or not that's a doubt that maybe comes to mind.

566
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: I think that I'm not immune to things that could

567
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 3: happen in the economy or just like the randomness of life.

568
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 3: So all those things are going well for me now,

569
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,120
Speaker 3: Like I could definitely get like, you know, knocked off

570
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: my horse at any moment. I feel like that's kind

571
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 3: of the anxiety of being in the economy that a

572
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 3: lot of people go through, is like you never know

573
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 3: if it's enough, because you could always imagine some scenario

574
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 3: where it's not going to be enough. Here you wish

575
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 3: you didn't spend that money on you know, something today

576
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 3: because you wish you could have saved it for that

577
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 3: bad scenario in the future. But you can't live your

578
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 3: life just only planning for bad scenarios, because then you

579
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 3: end up missing out on all the good, all the

580
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: on all the luck and all the good things that

581
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 3: could happen to you. So I think that's just another

582
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: thing that requires balance and also being able to take

583
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 3: an l when you lose, just realizing that, like, sometimes

584
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 3: you're gonna lose, and as long as you're you know,

585
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 3: keep making choices that align with your values. In the end,

586
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 3: you'll get to the place that is optimal for you.

587
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's that's good advice. And also just

588
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: kind of keep tuning in because your desires and your

589
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: priorities shift and change too over time. Right, It's like

590
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: once you have a two or three kids or something

591
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 1: like that, like your family life becomes more important than

592
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:08,360
Speaker 1: when you were single, and you could dedicate more time

593
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: to work. I'm curious on that topic. You characterize marriage

594
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 1: in your book as a financial strategy, which I think

595
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: is interesting. I don't I wonder how my wife would

596
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: react to that. Quite I need asked when I get

597
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: home it was a business decision, but you say that

598
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: it can produce happiness and intimacy, So you put that

599
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: part in there, but there's a trade off between those

600
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: two objectives. So how do you think about the mix

601
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 1: of love and the essential intertwined economic reality that tying

602
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,640
Speaker 1: yourself to another individual for the rest of your days?

603
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: Like what that entails?

604
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, obviously marriage, there's a lot of purposes

605
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: to marriage, but I think the financial aspect shouldn't be downplayed.

606
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 3: I mean, you're teaming up with another person, combining your finances,

607
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 3: and from that point on, whatever decision you make, it's

608
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: going to impact the other person. So you have to

609
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 3: talk about these financial decisions or else you know, you

610
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 3: might end up like not not with the outcomes that

611
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: you want. I'll just put it, I guess I'll put

612
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 3: it that way. But one thing that's shown in economic

613
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 3: research is that when two people have negatively correlated incomes,

614
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 3: like say one person they both work in real estate,

615
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 3: but one person focuses on luxury and one person focuses

616
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 3: on foreclosures, there they have better economic stability and actually

617
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: a lower chance of divorce because they don't have the

618
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,159
Speaker 3: same volatility and income that you know, two people who

619
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,679
Speaker 3: work on luxury real estate might feel because when housing

620
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 3: markets doing well, the couple's fine. With the housing markets

621
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 3: doing bad, the couple's fine. And it's just interesting to

622
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 3: see that play out like across different different industries and

623
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 3: different careers that couples might have. I think it's something

624
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 3: to be aware of because you know, if you're signing

625
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 3: up for more financial hardship because of the kind of

626
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: careers that you and your partner chose, that is going

627
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 3: to be a strain on the marriage and on your life.

628
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 1: So for how of money listeners out there in the

629
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: dating pool, what would you suggest to them? What sort

630
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 1: of conversations should they be having when they're kind of

631
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: getting to know somebody and they're saying, I don't know,

632
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: I think I might want to sign on the marriage

633
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: certificate with you and do life together. Are there certain

634
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 1: kind of conversations around economics and personal finance they should

635
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: be having ahead of time to make sure that's a

636
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: wise decision.

637
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: I think the most important thing to establish is whose

638
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: career is prioritized when it's it's not necessarily that one

639
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 3: person's career is prioritized over the other, but at different

640
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: moments you're going to have to make decisions about you know,

641
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 3: who picks up the kids after school, or who is

642
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: going to go on a business trip versus who's going

643
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: to stay home with the kids, And it might be

644
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 3: like you trade off on a weekly basis, or you

645
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: trade off on like on the amount of years where

646
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: for a certain amount of time, one partner is dedicated

647
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 3: to kids and the other partners doing the career, but

648
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: then later it might switch. But I think just talking

649
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 3: through that part of it is super important and can

650
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: also help you plan for downturns in the economy, Like

651
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 3: you're going to prioritize your career now, but if ever

652
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 3: you lost your job, then that's when I would step

653
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 3: up or something like that. So just understanding like who

654
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: is the primary earner at any moment in time, or

655
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: not primary earner but primary career person at any moment

656
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 3: in time, I think can avoid a lot of hard

657
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 3: fights later on.

658
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean what I hear you speaking to

659
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: and you write about this as well. It's just essentially

660
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 2: aligning your goals. But there are ways, I guess of

661
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: doing that as opposed to jumping straight to the negatively

662
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 2: correlated careers and incomes.

663
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 4: I guess. I mean that's a part of dating.

664
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 2: Right, likely you just talk about what you're looking forward

665
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 2: to in life, and then that's like a soft way

666
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: of aligning those goals. And if you hear somebody say

667
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: something that, oh wow, I've never thought about that and

668
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 2: nor do I ever want that, it's.

669
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: Like I'm looking forward to traveling every week for the

670
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: rest of my life on and maybe for work trips.

671
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, And you're like, wait, no, that's not good.

672
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:53,640
Speaker 4: It's just funny.

673
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: I guess hearing in economic terms as opposed to kind

674
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: of how that plays out in real life. But Darryl

675
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: talk about career implications, like how should economics impact our

676
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 2: job and career decisions the work that we decide to do.

677
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 3: Well understanding your strategy for earning more money within your career,

678
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: I think it's just important to like to go to

679
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 3: think about how you're going to advance your earnings. You

680
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 3: can advance your earnings by gaining skills. You could advance

681
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 3: your earnings by getting promotions or changing jobs. But I

682
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 3: think for people just starting out their career, their biggest

683
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 3: anxiety is just like I'm in a job. Like the

684
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 3: entry level jobs aren't create jobs, they're not as enjoyable

685
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,959
Speaker 3: as those higher level jobs. Of figuring out how you're

686
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 3: going to get there is really important, and there's so

687
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: many there's so many different ways that economics can impact that.

688
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 3: I talk in the book about understanding the principal agent

689
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: model in terms of understanding what your boss might want

690
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 3: out of you as an employee. I talk about backwards

691
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: induction to understand how to get promoted, like understanding who

692
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 3: is in control of promotion processes. But also there's like

693
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 3: more macro stuff, like understanding how the unemployment rate in

694
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: different industries is going to impact your own likelihood of

695
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 3: going through about of unemployment, Like it's both the micro

696
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 3: level but also this macro level is in the backdrop

697
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 3: at all times.

698
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious. Can you talk about that just a

699
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: little more? And what should we as individuals be paying

700
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: attention to so that we can realize what we can

701
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: push for and what's not possible. I guess in a

702
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: current economic climate, when you think, is it just like

703
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: the headline unemployment rate, is it we even look you

704
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:36,239
Speaker 1: look back to COVID and the there was just some

705
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: employers were willing to offer so much money for job switchers.

706
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: That has declined significantly. What should we be paying at

707
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: attention to from a macroeconomic perspective to kind of know

708
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: are what our value might be worth in the market

709
00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: we're currently in as an employee.

710
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, the kind of metrics I would pay attention to,

711
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 3: or how many job openings are in your career sector,

712
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 3: how many peopleeople are unemployed looking for work in that

713
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 3: career sector, because that can kind of tell you how

714
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 3: how much competition there is, how how many people are

715
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 3: going to be willing to take a lower income to

716
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 3: get the same job that you want. You generally want

717
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 3: to gravitate towards those jobs where there are lots of

718
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: openings and not that many people who have the skills

719
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 3: in them yet. Then you can be one of those

720
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: early people when it's still rare for you to have

721
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 3: those skills, and that's often when you can get the

722
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: most raises and get them like the best career trajectory.

723
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 3: You know everybody is going to be trying to do that,

724
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 3: figure out what the next big thing is, But oftentimes

725
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: you can kind of look at the data to give

726
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: you a hint. Healthcare is one where like it's good,

727
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 3: they're going to need to be more healthcare workers. Like

728
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: if I was advising somebody who didn't who who only

729
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: wanted job security and they were entering into college, I

730
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: would say, pick something in healthcare because you're definitely going

731
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 3: to be employed in the coming decades in.

732
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 4: That aging population. That kind of thing.

733
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, aging population. The spending just keeps going up on it.

734
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, and then it's a kind of job but

735
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 3: can't be replaced by robots at least not across the board,

736
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 3: because it's manual, it requires a human touch. There's bedside care.

737
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 3: I think that there will continue to be plenty of

738
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 3: healthcare jobs.

739
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: And then for folks who are so let's say they

740
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 2: already have a career and you mentioned this, right, just

741
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 2: the ability to increase your earnings either by like let's say,

742
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: upping your skills, maybe opting for a new job, or

743
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: kind of angling for that promotion. How would you recommend

744
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: for someone to maybe decide between those two or even

745
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 2: all three of those? Right, But I guess I specifically

746
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 2: want to drill down on, like, Okay, I'm looking to

747
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 2: either get promoted internally here or when should someone know

748
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: that they should be looking just to a different company

749
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: outside of who they're currently with.

750
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 3: The First thing to assess is how likely are you

751
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: to get promoted? Like are you already do you already

752
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 3: have everything you need to get promoted, and it's a

753
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 3: matter of pushing your promotion documents through and getting them approved,

754
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 3: or are there more skills that you need and more

755
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: evidence that you need to provide in order to get promoted.

756
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 3: If it's in the latter category, there's more that you

757
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 3: need to do. I think looking around at your peers

758
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 3: and looking at how they have gotten promoted. And then

759
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: if you're already at that stage where you have all

760
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 3: the skills, I think the stage to go to is

761
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 3: who is actually in charge of the promotion decision. Your

762
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 3: manager probably has some control of it, but your manager's

763
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 3: manager probably has to say and maybe even the executives

764
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:20,839
Speaker 3: have a say.

765
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: So.

766
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 3: Making sure that people who are making these decisions know

767
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 3: who you are and know the value you bring is

768
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,720
Speaker 3: going to be really important to getting a promotion approved.

769
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,279
Speaker 1: Do you feel like people like great jobs have become

770
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,720
Speaker 1: more widely geographically available given work from home. It seems

771
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,839
Speaker 1: like some of the some employers are calling back work

772
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,719
Speaker 1: from home a little bit, and other employers are saying,

773
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: oh cool, well you lived in Silicon valley and you

774
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: made a ridiculously high salary, But if you're going to

775
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 1: move to the middle part of the country, we're going

776
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: to pay you less. Is there still an opportunity for

777
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: people to live in a lower cost area of living

778
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: and benefit from a higher paying job that might be

779
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: headquartered in a more expensive place to live.

780
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: I think that's definitely a lot easier to find those

781
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 3: remote opportunities now than it was before the pandemic. But

782
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,280
Speaker 3: there is starting to be a bit of a reversal

783
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 3: on the trend where more corporations are wanting their employees

784
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 3: in office. We've seen that at Amazon. I think Apple

785
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 3: and Facebook have also done this, and the federal government

786
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,479
Speaker 3: has called people back into work too. So I think

787
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 3: that if you are trying to cast that y net,

788
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 3: I wouldn't rule out in office for you, because that

789
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 3: if you're still in that early part of your career,

790
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 3: it could be detrimental to completely rule out in office work.

791
00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 3: But I think it is something that is worth aspiring

792
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,000
Speaker 3: to if that's how you feel most comfortable working, it's

793
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 3: something that you value. I've set up a situation where

794
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: I can work remotely, but you know, earlier in my

795
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: career I didn't have the ability to do that. I'm

796
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 3: lucky that I have it now. But I think it

797
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 3: is something similar to your salary or similar to your

798
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 3: vacation time or your healthcare. It's one of these features

799
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: of your job that is going to impact your well being.

800
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure.

801
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: Or we've got more to get to, just a few

802
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:03,240
Speaker 1: more questions. Is with Darryl Fairwell. Featherwa with Darryl Fairweather

803
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,680
Speaker 1: about how economics impacts every area of our lives. We'll

804
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 1: get to that right after this.

805
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 2: All right, we are back from the break with Darryl Fairweather,

806
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: her book Hate the Game Economic cheat Codes for Life,

807
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 2: Love and Work. And I will say they're not necessarily

808
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 2: cheat codes. Like what you're doing in the book is

809
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: you're essentially you're like laying out the rules of these

810
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 2: different games so that we can quite clearly identify how

811
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: to actually win in these games. So it's not like

812
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 2: I don't know, sometimes folks here cheat code no game Genie, Yeah, yeah,

813
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: game Genie is like totally cheating, like you're not playing

814
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: the game at all. You've like short not shortcut, like yeah,

815
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: like hot wired the game, as opposed to clearly focusing

816
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 2: on the pieces of data that are going to move

817
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: the needle of the most Daryl. But in the book

818
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: you discuss obviously these different major life changes like moving

819
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,880
Speaker 2: to a new city, and and essentially it seems like

820
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 2: you're saying that folks on the fence are typically better

821
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: off getting off the fence making the change. Can you

822
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 2: explain why that is.

823
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a bias in behavioral economics called the status

824
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 3: quo bias, which is that it's been well documented that

825
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: people tend to stick with whatever situation they're in. I

826
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 3: talked about this a little bit before. How when you

827
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: feel like you own something, you value it more. Well,

828
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 3: the same is kind of true for the neighborhood that

829
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 3: you live in. If you grew up in a certain neighborhood,

830
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 3: you live in a certain neighborhood, you might think it's

831
00:38:29,160 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 3: better than other neighborhoods out there, but you wouldn't really

832
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: know unless you make the leap of faith and make

833
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 3: a change. So I think if you're even if you're

834
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 3: even contemplating moving cities, it's definitely worth exploring. And if

835
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 3: you're on the fence, just go for it, because for

836
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,959
Speaker 3: most people, they are subconsciously holding themselves back from better

837
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: opportunities because of that fear of the unknown and the

838
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 3: status quo bias.

839
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 2: So not just moving, but would you say that applies

840
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 2: to I guess a lot of the diferent decisions in

841
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 2: our life, the fact that status quo or the endowment

842
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: effect that that is maybe weighing heavier on people's decision

843
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,759
Speaker 2: making processes than to even realize.

844
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 3: I think for the average person, yes, you know, I

845
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 3: know that there are people out there who maybe struggle

846
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 3: with impulsivity and they feel like this is the exact opposite.

847
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 3: They need to stop making so many changes. But I

848
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: think the average person is resistant to change and it's

849
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: holding them back from better opportunities.

850
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 1: You also highlight in the book the concept of permanent income,

851
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: which is the assumption of future earnings, and you say

852
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: that that also impacts our money decisions how so well.

853
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 3: The permanent income hypothesis is this idea that if you

854
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,719
Speaker 3: knew how much income you're going to live over your life,

855
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,760
Speaker 3: then you would be able to borrow against your future

856
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 3: income and smooth out your consumption. So instead of eating

857
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 3: ramen noodles as a poor college student, you would recognize

858
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 3: that in the future you're going to be making more money,

859
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 3: so why not you know, spend money on an actual

860
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 3: meal instead of like making things harder for yourself. The

861
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 3: part about the permanent income hypothesis is that I think

862
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 3: people are afraid of that worst case scenario where they

863
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 3: didn't end up, you know, getting the job after college

864
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 3: that led to higher earnings, and they wish they really

865
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,560
Speaker 3: didn't spend or go into debt earlier on. But the

866
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 3: idea is that you know, on average, people do earn

867
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 3: more money over their lifetimes, and they should spend more

868
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 3: when they're young, they should save when they're older, and

869
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 3: then they have to spend down that retirement savings when

870
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: they're in their later years.

871
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: You just don't know, though. It was only we knew

872
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,800
Speaker 1: knew the future? Was it the white paper from Yale?

873
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: Was it James Troy? Maybe they wrote that about kind

874
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: of how how he was advocating for people to spend

875
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: more early on and be willing to take on more

876
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 1: debt because of this kind of permanent income hypothesis, saying

877
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: that like hey, no, no, no, you just smooth out the

878
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: ride a little bit in your living standard and it's

879
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: it's all going to be okay. But yeah, when you

880
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: factor in the realities of life that layoffs happen, or

881
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, even something like a hike in interest rates happen,

882
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: and your credit card debt now is worse than it was,

883
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: or your home equity line of credit payment has gone up.

884
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: Like those are the kind of things that are harder

885
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: to predict. So there, I think there are second order

886
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: consequences to just assuming future income too, or assuming future races, right.

887
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the downsides can be quite severe,

888
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 3: especially for people who don't have good safety nets. If

889
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 3: you know, losing income would mean that you're out, you

890
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 3: can't pay your rent, and you have nowhere to go,

891
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 3: then like you have a different risk tolerance and somebody

892
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 3: who can rely on their parents or can move back home.

893
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 3: So I think for people who are worried about spending

894
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:45,040
Speaker 3: a lot when they're young, those those fears can be founded.

895
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 3: And if it's having the psychological toll on you not

896
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 3: having enough in savings, then I think that in and

897
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 3: of itself is justified. Like if if you just feel

898
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 3: better having money in your savings account, then like, go

899
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 3: for it. You don't know, nobody should be telling you

900
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:57,439
Speaker 3: to spend more.

901
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,359
Speaker 2: Well, that feeling in your gut like that in and

902
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: of itself should be a data point that you pay

903
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: attention to. It's not just about like these external factors.

904
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 2: It's just also and it's hard to quantify. But how

905
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 2: how do you feel about this asision?

906
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

907
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: Because if you constantly are at feel like you're at

908
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: odds with what your gut's telling you, then I don't

909
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: think that's necessarily any way to live either, Darrel. You

910
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 2: also admit, like you're talking about spending or saving up

911
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 2: for retirement, you talk about stock picking, and you basically

912
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: compare it to like a beauty like a beauty contest game.

913
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 2: Can you share the correlation here between the two.

914
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So there was this old game that used to

915
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 3: appear in newspapers like kind of like just a fun thing,

916
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 3: like a lottery kind of game, where you'd write in

917
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,720
Speaker 3: your answer and maybe win a prize. And the idea

918
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 3: was to pick the picture of the woman that everybody

919
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 3: else was going to select as the most beautiful. So

920
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: instead of picking the picture that you personally thought was

921
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 3: the most beautiful, you're trying to pick the one that

922
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 3: everybody else is going to pick. But everybody else is

923
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 3: also going through that same exercise of what else is

924
00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,879
Speaker 3: everybody going to pick? I want to align on that.

925
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 3: And it's very similar to the stock market because you're

926
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 3: not necessarily picking the stock that you like the best.

927
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 3: You're picking in the stock that you think everybody else

928
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: is going to like in the future, and it's going

929
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 3: to go up in value. What happens in the actual

930
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 3: beauty contest game is that you know people the best

931
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 3: answer is not like the one that kind of goes

932
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 3: through too many lines of logic. If you reduce the

933
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 3: there's a way to reduce the problem to like something

934
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: mathematical and basically economists have shown that ideally, you just

935
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 3: want to think about like two degrees of separation, like

936
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 3: what does my opponent think about me, and then just

937
00:43:34,040 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 3: end it there. You don't want to keep going on

938
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 3: and on forever, like well, if this happens, or if

939
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 3: that happens, or what are they think exactly? Sometimes overthinking

940
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 3: can be too much, and I think that's also just

941
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,800
Speaker 3: a great reason to maybe not play the stock market

942
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 3: because it's just requires too much thinking and just kind

943
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 3: of play the averages and pick an index fund instead.

944
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: With you on that, Darryl on that Wise notes, we'll

945
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: lend this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the

946
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: time to join us work in how to money listeners

947
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 1: find out more about you and find out more about

948
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:03,839
Speaker 1: your new book.

949
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 3: Well, you can buy my book in any bookstore or

950
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 3: on any of the online platforms, and you can find

951
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: me on all the social media. I'm at Fairweather PhD

952
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,840
Speaker 3: on Instagram and that's my handle pretty much everywhere.

953
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: Nice, we'll link to all of that, Darryl, Thanks so

954
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: much for making the time for us today. Thank you

955
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,839
Speaker 2: all right, man, that was a good combo with old

956
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:24,359
Speaker 2: Darryl Fairweather. Yeah, it was. And she's not old. She's

957
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: younger than us.

958
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: Man, She's young, she's smarter, and I thought I thought

959
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: her book was really insightful.

960
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 4: What was your big takeaway from this conversation.

961
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 2: It said, the whole first segment or first section, we

962
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: talked about housing and when it comes to first time

963
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:40,279
Speaker 2: home buyers and how it is that they should be

964
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: thinking about buying a home. She put the two parts

965
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 2: of home buying in the right order, which is that

966
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 2: what needs to happen first is you need to be

967
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 2: thinking about it a whole lot before you get out there,

968
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: before you go shopping. Then you can start looking. But

969
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 2: the problem is most people start because of the ease

970
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 2: that the apps make it. Unfortunately, and just like the

971
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: wander lust that takes place with just oh, let's go

972
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: let's see what houses are for sales browse first. Yeah,

973
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 2: and I think there is a lot less of that

974
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: going on than obviously there was over the past four

975
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: years during the pandemic, but there does seem to be

976
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 2: this sort of holdover, this kind of carryover effect of

977
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 2: that where folks are looking, they're falling in love with

978
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 2: a property with a house before they even know what

979
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 2: it is that they can afford. They haven't looked at rates,

980
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: they haven't decided how long that they're going to actually

981
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: stay in that house.

982
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 4: I don't know what the average price per square foot

983
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 4: is for a house in an oh No.

984
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 2: And so she is trying to deemotionalize the conversation from

985
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: square one. Let's get analytical about it and then let's

986
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 2: get out there and start looking. And I think that

987
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,919
Speaker 2: that can be just a helpful matrix and decision making

988
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: process when it comes to especially for some home buyers

989
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 2: who are getting out there for the first time looking

990
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:44,760
Speaker 2: at housing.

991
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, that was my big takeaway how about you.

992
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was potentially gonna be mine, so oh sorry,

993
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 1: ill here. And I like when she was talking about

994
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,720
Speaker 1: marriage and kind of the the economic reality of marriage

995
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: and how you have to kind of talk about the

996
00:45:57,520 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: things planned for those things ahead of time, and that

997
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: is something as someone who's very interested in personal finance

998
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 1: and saw personal finance as an issue in my parents' marriage,

999
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 1: that was something I was a little more proactive about,

1000
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:10,760
Speaker 1: largely just because I'd seen the way I can bite

1001
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 1: you in the butt if you're not. And also, let's

1002
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: be honest, even if your plans, you can't always. Sometimes

1003
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: things that are worse than your plans come to pass

1004
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: and you can't necessarily prevent that. But I was just

1005
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,439
Speaker 1: thinking too about the prioritization of careers. I think that's

1006
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: a really especially in today's environment, a lot of two

1007
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 1: income households. You have to talk about that with your partner. Hey,

1008
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: for right now, like my job's on the front burner,

1009
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,240
Speaker 1: yours is on the back. You're dealing with more house duties.

1010
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: And right now Emily and I are in this position

1011
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 1: of flip flopping where her career is kind of taking

1012
00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: front and center role in our family. And that's a

1013
00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: good thing. And I'm glad we've been able to have

1014
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 1: this conversation. And it's not that I'm bowing out of

1015
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: how to money or I'm completely uninterested in doing this

1016
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: podcast anymore, but it's just I love that I get

1017
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: to be in a little bit more of a hands

1018
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: on supportive role at the house too, and so that

1019
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 1: that will be something that I think ebbs and flows

1020
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: for a lot of couples over their career lifetime, in

1021
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: their marriage lifetime. Yeah, but it's something that having I

1022
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: think those conversations proactively and saying, hey, what whose era

1023
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: is this right now? And then when does my era

1024
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: kick in? Where I get to kind of put the

1025
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 1: pedal to the metal. I think I can prevent a

1026
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: lot of arguments or hard feelings.

1027
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 2: I love it, dude. Yeah, I feel like y'all have

1028
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: demonstrated that well. The beer that you and I enjoyed

1029
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 2: during this episode was an argyle. This is the Raspberry

1030
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 2: Key Lime Sour by Contrast Artists and Ales. What your thoughts, buddy,

1031
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: So still get a little more in here on a port.

1032
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: I think this is my favorite beer I've had from

1033
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: Contrast to this point. Oh yeah, I really like this one.

1034
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: It's because it's raspberry.

1035
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 2: It's because it's raspberry. So I pick this one's up specifically.

1036
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: And I saw that I had raspberry, I was just like,

1037
00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: there's no way that Joel's not gonna enjoy it.

1038
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I love love raspberry beers and raspberry key lime.

1039
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: I gotta say it's my jam, Like I dig this

1040
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 1: so I like the combo of flavors in this one,

1041
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,919
Speaker 1: and it's it's pretty tart, not overly tart, but very

1042
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:04,720
Speaker 1: very fruity.

1043
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 4: I dug it.

1044
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: It's got the I think more beers need to have

1045
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: lime in them. Lime, I think is a highly underrated citrus. Lately,

1046
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 2: I've been putting more lime in my cocktails. You know.

1047
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 4: The that beach Fire cocktail that.

1048
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: I created started out as made his own cocktail people.

1049
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 2: Started out as a whiskey sour, but which is typically

1050
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: you make that with a lemon, and I'm like, I

1051
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 2: don't like the lemon sour though, and that you start tweaking,

1052
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: and I'm like, oh, wait a minute, what if I

1053
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,839
Speaker 2: switch it to lime? All of a sudden, I love

1054
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,279
Speaker 2: it so much more. Make some other changes, as some

1055
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: smoky scotch and boom. You know, you get yourself a

1056
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: own signature cocktail. Yeah, but no that the raspberry in

1057
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 2: this actually kind of remind me of Cantitione. And I

1058
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: know that you're gonna cry. Here's the that this is

1059
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:48,240
Speaker 2: not something that should ever be said. But something about

1060
00:48:48,239 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 2: that funky raspberry, man, it makes me think of those

1061
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: some of the greatest beers in the world. I'm not

1062
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 2: going to say it's I'm not your friend anymore. You

1063
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: can't compare any beer to Canti because it's its own.

1064
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 2: I guess I think of that anytime I have a

1065
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 2: raspberry sour because of the fact that so many of

1066
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: the beers that you've shared with me that were either

1067
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: Trefontaine or Katie Yone, they were raspberry.

1068
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 4: That was the fruit, raspberry, cherry.

1069
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: Gosh, any fruited sours that those guys make, they're literally

1070
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: the best beers in the world.

1071
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:16,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean quite literally.

1072
00:49:17,080 --> 00:49:19,480
Speaker 1: I throw down the collin to the American Brewery to

1073
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 1: do better than those guys do.

1074
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 2: But this is great, a total summertime sour kind of

1075
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 2: style beer that's super easy to drink.

1076
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 4: Most stuff really delicious. Right.

1077
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 1: We'll put links to Daryl's book and a few of

1078
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: the other resources we mentioned in this conversation up on

1079
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: our website at how tomoney dot com. You can find

1080
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,680
Speaker 1: them in the show notes there, along with some other

1081
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: helpful resources to give you advice and encouragement in your

1082
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 1: money journey. They all live there all the time on our.

1083
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 2: Website, you know what. So until next time, buddy, best

1084
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,479
Speaker 2: friends out, Best Friends Out.