WEBVTT - Dream Golf Happenings with Michael Keiser Jr. 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.800 I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:04.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:07.200 And when I find my ball in a brid egg. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.880 Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, fridaygg, fridagg Bride egg Lie, 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:13.160 I'm about ready to run. 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:39.920 Off of the hump. Welcome back to another edition of 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.360 the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your host, Andy Johnson. 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.159 Today I'm I'm very excited I have a interview with 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:49.400 Michael Kaiser Jr. 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:50.159 Uh. 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.599 It is always fun to catch up with Michael. They 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.240 have so much going on with Dream Golf, with their expansion, 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:04.440 uh Sand Valley, Video Dunes, Wildspring Dunes, Florida project, and 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.360 it's always neat to chat with. I think we talk 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:10.840 a lot with architects. We don't talk that much with 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:15.920 developers and people that are kind of creating the projects 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.399 and what goes into it from their end of things. 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:23.280 So this conversation we talk a lot about the comments 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.640 the new twelve hole golf course that will be unveiled 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.520 in twenty twenty six, as well as some of his 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:34.200 new projects, and then Michael shares a bit of personal 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:35.200 news at the end. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.160 You know, Sand Valley. 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.039 This is the sixth golf course at Sand Valley, and 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:46.440 I always enjoy talking and thinking about Sand Valley. Just 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:52.040 as a personal anecdote. One of my first business trips 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.080 with the Frida Egg was driving up to Sand Valley 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.800 when I think they had twelve holes done. There was previewplay, 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:01.600 maybe nine holes, it was just nine. I think it 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:05.800 was nine nine holes done preview play and they were 0:02:05.960 --> 0:02:10.400 operating out of a trailer and it was just sand everywhere, 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:14.680 and it's amazing you go back and just incredible to 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.360 see the evolution of that place and what has become 0:02:18.520 --> 0:02:21.440 kind of like the building of one of these great 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:27.919 golf resorts over the last basically ten years. So that's 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.920 always kind of just a fun topic in discussion for me. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:33.480 It brings me back to the beginning. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.959 And it's been really neat to see Michael and Chris 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:43.360 Kaiser kind of expand their golf empire and really looking 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.359 forward to getting out to see Rodeo Dune type believe 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.360 they're going to have preview play this fall, and it 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.560 was neat to hear him talk about wild Spring Dunes, 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:59.440 which I think will be a very very added destination 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:03.600 course for Texas. A great addition to the Texas golf scene. 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:07.320 So let's get to our interview with Michael Kaiser, But 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:12.000 first let's talk about our new partner, Maui Nui Venison. 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:12.840 Maui Nui. 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.760 Maui Nui offers the only one wild harvested meat that's 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:22.240 completely stress free and responsibly sourced. It's perfect for anyone 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.079 looking to elevate their meals with delicious, high quality protein. 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:26.920 Uh. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.160 They sent me some of this stuff and it is delicious. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:34.600 It is when you look at the nutrition facts that 0:03:35.000 --> 0:03:37.520 makes a taste I think even more delicious. This is 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:42.240 literally the healthiest red meat you'll ever eat, packed with protein. 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:47.680 They this is you know, I think, really like about 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.640 as good of meat as you can you can do. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:55.800 And it's also solving a major problem. There is a 0:03:55.880 --> 0:03:59.240 invasive deer population on Maui, on the island of Maui, 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:03.560 and this is kind of addressing that. So this is uh, 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.520 you know, they have these kind of sticks, so like 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:08.560 kind of like a meat stick. 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:10.240 They have their their ground meat. 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:14.480 They have like medallions, chops, all sorts of different cuts 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:17.160 of meat. But the sticks are great for on the go. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:22.760 I'm in Austin right now. Texas. I've packed a couple 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:26.120 in my bag and it's great because, like I, you know, 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.359 when you're traveling, you you have these weird schedules. They're 0:04:29.440 --> 0:04:32.560 just like perfect little snacks on the on the go. 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.760 They have ten grams of protein and just fifty five calories. 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.040 So like you compare them. I put them side by 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:41.839 side with like a like on the go snack we 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:46.120 give my daughter, uh, and the Maui Nuy nutrition just 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:46.920 blows it away. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:47.640 Uh. 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:48.400 It's really good. 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:52.920 It tastes really good, and you know, it is an 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.800 easy way to add protein to your diet, which you know, 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.159 if you if you pay attention to health trends, is 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:00.200 all the rage. So if you want to check out 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:04.240 Maui Nui, go to Maui Nui Venison dot com slash egg. 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.839 That's Maui Nui, which is m a u I n 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:13.200 Ui Venison v E n I s o n dot 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:16.719 com slash egg uh, and you can learn more about 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.599 what they do there. All right, let's get to Michael Kaiser. 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.800 All right, Michael, thanks for joining us. Big news out 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:34.200 of Sam Valley, the comments, the latest course, the sixth course. 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:38.400 I can't believe it's the sixth course is coming online 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:43.760 in twenty twenty six. It is I would say, in 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.360 terms of the Dream Golf Profile portfolio of golf courses, 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:53.800 this is a one of one, a very unique concept 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.640 and design, which is why I wanted to chat with you. 0:05:57.080 --> 0:05:59.640 I would love to hear a little bit about how 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.000 the idea of the commons came to be. 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.160 Sure, well, it's a long story and I'll sort of 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.600 throw out different pieces and maybe you can help me 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:12.560 tie it all together. But I think it first started 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:17.440 in twenty twenty two when I was spending a big 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:19.880 chunk of the summer in Scotland with my family, my 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:23.040 young family. We had two kids at the time. Bertie 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.760 hadn't been born yet, and we lived in Edinburgh, and 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:34.360 you know, we traveled around and I really enjoyed experiencing 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:38.200 these golf parks and you know, every day I'd sort 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.800 of put the kids in a stroller we just explore Edinburgh. 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:44.680 It's a wonderful city to walk around. Sort of hard 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.240 when you're pushing a stroller up the hills, but it 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:50.880 was good exercise. And we loved going to the Meadows 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:55.720 Park just south of the University because they had the 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.599 best playground in the city. And Edinburgh is filled with 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:04.600 wonderful playgrounds. And one day we wandered over the west 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:08.200 side of the meadows and experienced Bruntsfield Links for the 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.600 first time. And Brunsfield is a thirty six hole pitching 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:17.200 put surrounded by you know, the church and four story 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:20.560 buildings like this is in the center, in an urban center, 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.560 and it's really just a park, like any you know, 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:28.600 Madison has a grass park and they mow out perfect 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.880 circle greens, right it is. It is a pretty lousy 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.880 golf course, but it's one of the best golf experiences 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.720 you could have because you know, I don't howl over 0:07:39.840 --> 0:07:41.760 my kids. At the time, there were you know, four 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:45.400 and two, I think, and I didn't have to worry 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.960 about them being kids. They're just running around slapping the 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:53.040 golf ball. Winifred loved aiming at women pushing strollers through 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.080 the course. You know they're women out pushing their kids 0:07:56.080 --> 0:07:58.840 and yelling four. You know, she could hit the ball 0:07:58.840 --> 0:08:01.960 about twenty five feet so it was safe. Uh. And 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.840 there'd be you know, college students grilling, you know and 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:10.160 playing golf, and you know, some retirees chipping around and practicing. 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.520 And I just thought it was so cool that literally 0:08:12.560 --> 0:08:15.400 this park, uh, this golf course set in a park, 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.160 crisscross by sidewalks, and it was just this communal you 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.920 know space. And you know, mussel Borow has a great one. 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:25.080 We spent time in North Barrack. They have a more 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:29.160 formal the children's course there the nine hole, which my 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:31.720 children joined, you know last summer. You have to you 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:33.400 have to be a kid, you have to be as 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.280 an adult, you have to be accompanied by a child. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.920 But to play it. And then the greatest golf park 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.160 by far in the world, by you know, maybe the 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:46.560 greatest golf course in the world, but by far is 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.920 Saint Andrew's right, like right in the heart of town. 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.440 You know, people walking around on Sundays, and you know, 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.680 even North Barrack. I remember playing one day and I 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.560 had met a friends, a mother early in the week 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.280 and she was walking back from market and you know, 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.160 to get from town to her home, which happens to 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:10.120 be you know, behind the sixteenth graden. They're pretty good location. 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:13.840 You know, there's a walking trail that people use. And 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.800 just doubling into her mid round and stopping the chat 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:22.200 and saying hi. This idea of a golf park. You know, 0:09:22.480 --> 0:09:25.160 common space in the heart of a town began to 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:31.240 emerge and at the time we were planning a significant 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:33.680 town of Sand Valley. We've scaled it back a bit, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.000 but what is now the commons is really in the 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:41.760 heart of the resort and you know, dream golf our 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:44.960 of courses play out into the wilderness and it's one 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.120 of the things we all love. It is very different. 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:49.280 This is the heart of the resort. It's surrounded on 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:54.120 three sides by roads and people on activities, and as 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.840 you move around the resort, you walk through the commons. 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.440 So this is very different than anything we've done for 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.560 many reasons, but one of them is it's it's right 0:10:02.600 --> 0:10:05.800 out in front. You know, it's an open links, very 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.280 few trees and it's right in the heart of our resort. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.120 So that that's really where the idea was born in 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.640 twenty twenty two in Edinburgh and East Lothian. 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:18.520 I think like obviously, one of the things that you 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.440 guys have to do when you're building these resorts with 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:27.480 multiple courses is variety, and this one is completely variety 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:33.000 in terms of concept and setting with the kind of 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:37.440 I guess I would love. So this idea really built 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:42.400 was built around your time in Scotland. Something I was 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.960 wondering about was, you know, you you started to spend 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:48.960 a lot of time in the UK in recent years, 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:54.200 going there on vacations with your family. How would you 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.079 say that it's influenced you as a as a developer. 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.960 Well, this is one very you know, very direct way. 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:08.720 You know, I think, you know, we get people, you know, 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.800 people say things like, you know, we could be innovative 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.960 or I think you know, and I may have been 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:19.640 talking about this the other day, we're just fabulous thieves, right, 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:22.920 I mean, we just blindly steal from the UK like none. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.160 None of this is innovative. Nothing we're doing is like, 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.600 is original at all. You know, we're just very lucky 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:33.240 to have traveled, you know, around Great Britain and Ireland 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:35.800 just saying hey, that's cool, that's fun. Let's bring that 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:38.720 back right And that started with Bandon Dudes, my Deadlocks 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.360 golf and you know, took the concept over here. So 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.160 it affects our development because every time we go there, 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:50.760 we find something you know, new to to steal. And 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.280 I mean that the one we're talking about now is conceptual, 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.720 but sometimes there's just details, right, and you know, just 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.840 you know, another thing that was brought to the commons 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.480 or you know, for me, some of the some of 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.520 the fairways at Prestwick are just wild, you know, they 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:12.640 they are, They're wild North Barrett two and seventeen. Like, 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.760 I didn't know features could be so bold, right, and 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:17.520 it just didn't. I didn't think you could take it, 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:19.800 you know, that far. And certainly Saint Andrews has those, 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:24.120 so you know, just borrowing things like that and encouraging 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.760 an architect to amplify some of those shapes and of 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:31.520 course like Comments which doesn't have these huge blowout you 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:35.439 know ridges the way Sand Valley or Mammoth does. So 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:38.240 I mean we could we could spend you know, ten 0:12:38.320 --> 0:12:41.760 podcasts talking about the ways that we borrow. But the 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:44.760 big theme is that we go there, we find inspiration, 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:47.199 and we bring it back and we apply it maybe 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.920 in unique ways and make it our own. But we 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:54.280 were just constantly, you know, inspired by the game that's 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:55.880 that's played there. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.560 I've been reading a lot about Ceb McDonald, just rereading 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:05.480 really and I think, you know, American golf the tale 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:10.280 is all the time is borrowing from you know, Scotland 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:14.560 England and Ireland. You know that is really the best. 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:20.240 What created the greatest generation of golf architecture in American history. 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.000 So you know this is nothing new in American golf design. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:28.680 Yeah, absolutely, So many of our greatest architects came from abroad. 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:30.000 With with Commons. 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.560 You mentioned Prestwick's rolling fairways and North Barracks to the 0:13:34.600 --> 0:13:39.040 fairways of two and seventeen. That shared space that's unbelievable. 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:44.640 Something I've wondered is in Commons is you know much more. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:48.640 It's not a wild dunescape like you encounter at Mammoth 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:53.160 Dune's or Sand Valley or even sedge in spots. It's 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.000 i would say, more in the vein of Lido in 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.200 terms of topographical interest. 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.160 How is the Lido project? 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:07.040 The idea of taking something flat and creating everything change 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:09.720 the way you guys look at pieces of property. 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:13.079 It's completely changed the way I'd looked at it, right, 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:16.920 I mean I always saw like like minimalism, as like 0:14:17.480 --> 0:14:21.160 that like the goal somehow right as opposed to like 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.560 it's a wonderful method that should be applied in a 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:28.200 case like Rodeo Dunes to build a fabulous golf course. 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:32.400 But the goal is to make fabulous golf courses, and 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.040 there are different ways to do that. And because Leto 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:37.760 was so different, it was so fun, right, because it 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:43.000 was new. I'd never done anything like that before, and 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:47.120 it gave me confidence that, you know, maybe with the 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:51.400 right architect, you know, we could build something that's pretty 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:55.800 pretty compelling. So Commons Commons was our original driving range, right, 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:57.880 I mean that was maybe a third of it or 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.680 a quarter of it. Driving ranges tend to be pretty flat. 0:15:00.720 --> 0:15:04.400 This was the flattest piece of ground on the property, right, 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.960 and so we were we were starting from a flat 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.080 piece of sand. Most of the contours from them, from 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:15.240 the Commons came from a lake that we were building. 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.479 That's forty acres that now exist, and it's it's it's gorgeous. 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.040 But we needed to put that sand somewhere. So that 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.640 enormous dune that you see behind the first green, you know, 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:28.440 some people call it Mount Doom. Rob Dumas are head 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.560 of agroaderby I call it Megala Dune. It's a great 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.640 way to tire six and four year olds out. The 0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:35.600 kids just go up and down. 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.640 But that's what I always think. 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.560 It's a double black diamond slutting Hill. Yeah, it's great 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:47.920 that for me, but you know that so that came 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.800 from the lake and we still had extra sand, so 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.360 we started just dumping it somewhat randomly all over the 0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.760 all over the golf course and and then just Jimmy 0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:04.400 used that to riff on his routing and golf hole. 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:08.160 So you know, the features were, in my mind are 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.520 very much of the Scottish scale, right, which Ledo certainly 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:16.520 is as well. We weren't going to manufacture huge, you know, 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.040 sandy features, but we're going to you know, see what 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.320 we could do with, you know, eye height and below 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.280 and there's features bigger than that, the seventh green place 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.800 up up the hill to sort of a blind green, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.400 but most of them, you know, emulate some of the 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.560 scale that I love so much in Scotland. In particular. 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.280 Gil Hans has used the term for that scale on 0:16:43.320 --> 0:16:47.000 this podcast, and his Philly accent, I think is what 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.120 also makes me remember it. You know, it's a soft age. 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:54.920 He says, human human sized scale. Yeah, like human size scale, 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:57.880 but you know in his accent is human and I 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:00.440 you know, when I think about Scottish golf, like that 0:17:00.560 --> 0:17:04.440 might be my favorite thing about it. Is the preponderance 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.800 of human sky size scale, where you know, it's not 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.720 as taxing. And I think you guys imagine this golf 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:17.199 course being a big afternoon destination, just you know, I 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.560 think that's obviously like from a utility standpoint, when I 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:25.000 think about your resort. The Sandbox has been such a 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.280 popular hit. I mean where to the point where it's 0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:30.320 like almost impossible to get a tea time in the 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.080 afternoon because of the popularity. 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.480 And just to interrupt it, I mean that was certainly 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.320 designed as an afternoon golf course. It's become so popular 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.960 that it's full in the morning and there are many 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:45.960 days where it gets more round than sand Valley or Magnothuans. Right, 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.879 So like first pick is afternoon, but the morning is 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:50.720 filled up. And I hope that's what we find it 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:51.640 commons as well. 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.399 Well, that's what I was thinking when I was just 0:17:54.480 --> 0:17:56.720 thinking about this golf course, it was this is a 0:17:56.760 --> 0:18:00.680 great this is an amazing warm up course, right where 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.240 like I you know, for people that like to hit 0:18:03.280 --> 0:18:06.080 the range or something, and it's like you have the 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.959 opportunity to kind of just like warm up and quickly 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.919 zip around, especially if you got one of those early times. 0:18:11.920 --> 0:18:14.280 So like, if you're a faster group, you could just 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.600 fly around and it's like, you know this this golf course, 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.520 with it being twelve holes, gives you the opportunity to 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.560 potentially have just a massive day if you wanted to 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.200 just go all out and you could play three golf 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.640 courses in one day and it would you know. One 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:31.159 of the things I like about it is the idea 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:33.480 that there are still drivers in play. I think that's 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:38.120 been one of my big sticking points with the idea 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:42.320 of short courses in America is that everybody looks at 0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:47.399 maybe it's the preserve, the sandbox, the cradle, and it's like, okay, 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.600 every hole has to be under one hundred and fifty yards, 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:51.879 and it's like, no, we can have drivers, we can 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:54.280 have different things. That's one of my favorite things I'd 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.679 love to talk about. You know, people are you know, 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:01.040 probably don't know. You know, I don't think Jim is 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:05.600 a household name, but if you are in golf architecture circles, 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.359 he is a household name. One of the more talented 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:15.400 individuals in the in the space. How did you kind 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:17.480 of start to work with Jim Craig, And I think 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.480 like it's important, Like this has been a collaboration between 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:26.400 you and Jim Craig, very kind of a evolving process, 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.439 we could call it, and one that you've had a 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:31.639 lot of input and impact on. 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.000 Yeah, it's certainly mostly mostly Jim, but it's you know, 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.560 he's he look, he came up working with Bill Corr 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.200 and Bill Corr is you know, he just loves riffing 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:46.280 off of any idea, right, He is so collaborative. Now, 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.840 he's certainly the gds who Ian Ben who who make 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.280 it great. But he's just looking for any idea to 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.600 riff off of. And that's why it's so fun to 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:58.600 work with because whatever you throw out, he'll just he'll 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.560 just make it great. So that's what Jimmy knows. And 0:20:01.640 --> 0:20:05.879 he's he's wonderfully open to collaboration. But he's certainly the 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.639 one coming up, you know, with the big ideas that 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.040 make the golf grade. But I met him at Sand Valley, 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.320 you know, in the with the first course in particular, 0:20:15.359 --> 0:20:17.639 but the first two courses. You know, my dad was 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.240 calling the shots and working with the architects, and you 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:25.119 know I went to all of our walks with Bill 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.080 and my dad, but I also lived up at Sand Valley, 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.720 and I figured maybe one of the ways I could 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.560 have a greater impact on the golf course is by 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:38.399 developing relationships with the associates and shapers, which you know, 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:40.800 my dad had never done because he works with Bill 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:45.120 and Tom and David. So I developed a relationship and 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:48.560 you know, trust with Jim over the course of building 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.120 the first course at Sand Valley, and he and I 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.560 sort of sneakily started, you know, working on the sandbox, 0:20:56.800 --> 0:20:59.119 and he did the first routing of that golf course 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.880 and we put I think the first routing was twenty 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.320 two greens. Put He put twenty two greens in the 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.040 ground before my dad had seen it or Bill had 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:09.800 seen it, and and Bill liked it so much that 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.160 he took it over right, and they worked together. Ben 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.600 spent an enormous amount of time working on it. And 0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.040 that's where I really got to know Jim, right, Bill 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.040 like just building building a golf course with him, and 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.600 I really I really liked Jim. I'm you know, a 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.200 sucker for grinders, you know, and he just he they 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.960 all everybody in that team worked so hard, but you 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.240 know he, I mean, he gave his life to that 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:36.639 golf course. He would he would he would put the 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:39.960 floodlights on his truck on and keep shaping into the night. 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:42.719 You know, like it was a summer, you know, a 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:46.160 manic summer of creation, and I just wanted to make 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:48.639 sure he stayed safe and healthy. But he was. It 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:51.679 was just a brilliant, you know, flash of genius. I 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.600 think you know those greens that that he and Ryan 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:56.560 and Bill and Ben made. So that's how I got 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:57.080 to know him. 0:21:58.240 --> 0:22:02.280 I do feel like any that's that's experienced the Sandbox, 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.680 I think I feel like there is a popular thought 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.320 is and the question is is this the best course 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:12.359 at sand Valley? And that's not a shot at the 0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.440 other courses. It's more of a you get done playing 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.600 the Sandbox and you were just you know, I remember 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:23.840 I was there on opening day of the Sandbox and 0:22:24.160 --> 0:22:26.879 I had I was doing a chat with with Bill 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.920 that night, and I had a couple like meetings sporadically 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:33.480 through the day. And this was you know, this was 0:22:33.600 --> 0:22:36.480 early days. Sand Valley wasn't as busy as it is now. 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.280 And I went out and played the Sandbox like seven 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:43.320 or eight times, and every time I played with a 0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.399 different a single different club, and it was one of 0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:49.120 the most fun days of golf that I've I think 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:51.840 about it all the time because it was just like 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.680 every time, like every hole presented so much differently when 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:55.480 you change the club. 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:58.560 It's such a fun way to play it. One of 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:01.199 the times I played with you, maybe you were just 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.399 playing with the six iron, because I'm not sure, but 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:06.919 on the second hal I remember just the stinger of 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:09.600 a six iron hit so envious of you, know, that 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.960 trajectory and running the ball up under that that green. 0:23:13.080 --> 0:23:15.280 So that might have been your six iron round, but 0:23:15.359 --> 0:23:16.160 it was impressive. 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:18.840 Well you were You're you're a putter guy, so you 0:23:18.960 --> 0:23:21.960 like going the putter the whole way around. I'm envious 0:23:22.000 --> 0:23:27.080 to that. I don't like putting from off greens. Yeah, 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:30.879 with Jim, you know, I guess I guess this is 0:23:30.920 --> 0:23:35.399 a you know, like you guys, I think like you know, 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:38.160