Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a brid egg.
Speaker 2: Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg, fridaygg, fridagg Bride egg Lie,
Speaker 2: I'm about ready to run.
Speaker 3: Off of the hump. Welcome back to another edition of
Speaker 3: the Friday Golf Podcast. I am your host, Andy Johnson.
Speaker 3: Today I'm I'm very excited I have a interview with
Speaker 3: Michael Kaiser Jr.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 3: It is always fun to catch up with Michael. They
Speaker 3: have so much going on with Dream Golf, with their expansion,
Speaker 3: uh Sand Valley, Video Dunes, Wildspring Dunes, Florida project, and
Speaker 3: it's always neat to chat with. I think we talk
Speaker 3: a lot with architects. We don't talk that much with
Speaker 3: developers and people that are kind of creating the projects
Speaker 3: and what goes into it from their end of things.
Speaker 3: So this conversation we talk a lot about the comments
Speaker 3: the new twelve hole golf course that will be unveiled
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six, as well as some of his
Speaker 3: new projects, and then Michael shares a bit of personal
Speaker 3: news at the end.
Speaker 1: You know, Sand Valley.
Speaker 3: This is the sixth golf course at Sand Valley, and
Speaker 3: I always enjoy talking and thinking about Sand Valley. Just
Speaker 3: as a personal anecdote. One of my first business trips
Speaker 3: with the Frida Egg was driving up to Sand Valley
Speaker 3: when I think they had twelve holes done. There was previewplay,
Speaker 3: maybe nine holes, it was just nine. I think it
Speaker 3: was nine nine holes done preview play and they were
Speaker 3: operating out of a trailer and it was just sand everywhere,
Speaker 3: and it's amazing you go back and just incredible to
Speaker 3: see the evolution of that place and what has become
Speaker 3: kind of like the building of one of these great
Speaker 3: golf resorts over the last basically ten years. So that's
Speaker 3: always kind of just a fun topic in discussion for me.
Speaker 1: It brings me back to the beginning.
Speaker 3: And it's been really neat to see Michael and Chris
Speaker 3: Kaiser kind of expand their golf empire and really looking
Speaker 3: forward to getting out to see Rodeo Dune type believe
Speaker 3: they're going to have preview play this fall, and it
Speaker 3: was neat to hear him talk about wild Spring Dunes,
Speaker 3: which I think will be a very very added destination
Speaker 3: course for Texas. A great addition to the Texas golf scene.
Speaker 3: So let's get to our interview with Michael Kaiser, But
Speaker 3: first let's talk about our new partner, Maui Nui Venison.
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Speaker 2: Uh.
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Speaker 3: It is when you look at the nutrition facts that
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Speaker 3: They this is you know, I think, really like about
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Speaker 3: And it's also solving a major problem. There is a
Speaker 3: invasive deer population on Maui, on the island of Maui,
Speaker 3: and this is kind of addressing that. So this is uh,
Speaker 3: you know, they have these kind of sticks, so like
Speaker 3: kind of like a meat stick.
Speaker 1: They have their their ground meat.
Speaker 3: They have like medallions, chops, all sorts of different cuts
Speaker 3: of meat. But the sticks are great for on the go.
Speaker 3: I'm in Austin right now. Texas. I've packed a couple
Speaker 3: in my bag and it's great because, like I, you know,
Speaker 3: when you're traveling, you you have these weird schedules. They're
Speaker 3: just like perfect little snacks on the on the go.
Speaker 3: They have ten grams of protein and just fifty five calories.
Speaker 3: So like you compare them. I put them side by
Speaker 3: side with like a like on the go snack we
Speaker 3: give my daughter, uh, and the Maui Nuy nutrition just
Speaker 3: blows it away.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: It's really good.
Speaker 3: It tastes really good, and you know, it is an
Speaker 3: easy way to add protein to your diet, which you know,
Speaker 3: if you if you pay attention to health trends, is
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Speaker 3: what they do there. All right, let's get to Michael Kaiser.
Speaker 3: All right, Michael, thanks for joining us. Big news out
Speaker 3: of Sam Valley, the comments, the latest course, the sixth course.
Speaker 3: I can't believe it's the sixth course is coming online
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty six. It is I would say, in
Speaker 3: terms of the Dream Golf Profile portfolio of golf courses,
Speaker 3: this is a one of one, a very unique concept
Speaker 3: and design, which is why I wanted to chat with you.
Speaker 3: I would love to hear a little bit about how
Speaker 3: the idea of the commons came to be.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, it's a long story and I'll sort of
Speaker 2: throw out different pieces and maybe you can help me
Speaker 2: tie it all together. But I think it first started
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty two when I was spending a big
Speaker 2: chunk of the summer in Scotland with my family, my
Speaker 2: young family. We had two kids at the time. Bertie
Speaker 2: hadn't been born yet, and we lived in Edinburgh, and
Speaker 2: you know, we traveled around and I really enjoyed experiencing
Speaker 2: these golf parks and you know, every day I'd sort
Speaker 2: of put the kids in a stroller we just explore Edinburgh.
Speaker 2: It's a wonderful city to walk around. Sort of hard
Speaker 2: when you're pushing a stroller up the hills, but it
Speaker 2: was good exercise. And we loved going to the Meadows
Speaker 2: Park just south of the University because they had the
Speaker 2: best playground in the city. And Edinburgh is filled with
Speaker 2: wonderful playgrounds. And one day we wandered over the west
Speaker 2: side of the meadows and experienced Bruntsfield Links for the
Speaker 2: first time. And Brunsfield is a thirty six hole pitching
Speaker 2: put surrounded by you know, the church and four story
Speaker 2: buildings like this is in the center, in an urban center,
Speaker 2: and it's really just a park, like any you know,
Speaker 2: Madison has a grass park and they mow out perfect
Speaker 2: circle greens, right it is. It is a pretty lousy
Speaker 2: golf course, but it's one of the best golf experiences
Speaker 2: you could have because you know, I don't howl over
Speaker 2: my kids. At the time, there were you know, four
Speaker 2: and two, I think, and I didn't have to worry
Speaker 2: about them being kids. They're just running around slapping the
Speaker 2: golf ball. Winifred loved aiming at women pushing strollers through
Speaker 2: the course. You know they're women out pushing their kids
Speaker 2: and yelling four. You know, she could hit the ball
Speaker 2: about twenty five feet so it was safe. Uh. And
Speaker 2: there'd be you know, college students grilling, you know and
Speaker 2: playing golf, and you know, some retirees chipping around and practicing.
Speaker 2: And I just thought it was so cool that literally
Speaker 2: this park, uh, this golf course set in a park,
Speaker 2: crisscross by sidewalks, and it was just this communal you
Speaker 2: know space. And you know, mussel Borow has a great one.
Speaker 2: We spent time in North Barrack. They have a more
Speaker 2: formal the children's course there the nine hole, which my
Speaker 2: children joined, you know last summer. You have to you
Speaker 2: have to be a kid, you have to be as
Speaker 2: an adult, you have to be accompanied by a child.
Speaker 2: But to play it. And then the greatest golf park
Speaker 2: by far in the world, by you know, maybe the
Speaker 2: greatest golf course in the world, but by far is
Speaker 2: Saint Andrew's right, like right in the heart of town.
Speaker 2: You know, people walking around on Sundays, and you know,
Speaker 2: even North Barrack. I remember playing one day and I
Speaker 2: had met a friends, a mother early in the week
Speaker 2: and she was walking back from market and you know,
Speaker 2: to get from town to her home, which happens to
Speaker 2: be you know, behind the sixteenth graden. They're pretty good location.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a walking trail that people use. And
Speaker 2: just doubling into her mid round and stopping the chat
Speaker 2: and saying hi. This idea of a golf park. You know,
Speaker 2: common space in the heart of a town began to
Speaker 2: emerge and at the time we were planning a significant
Speaker 2: town of Sand Valley. We've scaled it back a bit,
Speaker 2: but what is now the commons is really in the
Speaker 2: heart of the resort and you know, dream golf our
Speaker 2: of courses play out into the wilderness and it's one
Speaker 2: of the things we all love. It is very different.
Speaker 2: This is the heart of the resort. It's surrounded on
Speaker 2: three sides by roads and people on activities, and as
Speaker 2: you move around the resort, you walk through the commons.
Speaker 2: So this is very different than anything we've done for
Speaker 2: many reasons, but one of them is it's it's right
Speaker 2: out in front. You know, it's an open links, very
Speaker 2: few trees and it's right in the heart of our resort.
Speaker 2: So that that's really where the idea was born in
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two in Edinburgh and East Lothian.
Speaker 3: I think like obviously, one of the things that you
Speaker 3: guys have to do when you're building these resorts with
Speaker 3: multiple courses is variety, and this one is completely variety
Speaker 3: in terms of concept and setting with the kind of
Speaker 3: I guess I would love. So this idea really built
Speaker 3: was built around your time in Scotland. Something I was
Speaker 3: wondering about was, you know, you you started to spend
Speaker 3: a lot of time in the UK in recent years,
Speaker 3: going there on vacations with your family. How would you
Speaker 3: say that it's influenced you as a as a developer.
Speaker 2: Well, this is one very you know, very direct way.
Speaker 2: You know, I think, you know, we get people, you know,
Speaker 2: people say things like, you know, we could be innovative
Speaker 2: or I think you know, and I may have been
Speaker 2: talking about this the other day, we're just fabulous thieves, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, we just blindly steal from the UK like none.
Speaker 2: None of this is innovative. Nothing we're doing is like,
Speaker 2: is original at all. You know, we're just very lucky
Speaker 2: to have traveled, you know, around Great Britain and Ireland
Speaker 2: just saying hey, that's cool, that's fun. Let's bring that
Speaker 2: back right And that started with Bandon Dudes, my Deadlocks
Speaker 2: golf and you know, took the concept over here. So
Speaker 2: it affects our development because every time we go there,
Speaker 2: we find something you know, new to to steal. And
Speaker 2: I mean that the one we're talking about now is conceptual,
Speaker 2: but sometimes there's just details, right, and you know, just
Speaker 2: you know, another thing that was brought to the commons
Speaker 2: or you know, for me, some of the some of
Speaker 2: the fairways at Prestwick are just wild, you know, they
Speaker 2: they are, They're wild North Barrett two and seventeen. Like,
Speaker 2: I didn't know features could be so bold, right, and
Speaker 2: it just didn't. I didn't think you could take it,
Speaker 2: you know, that far. And certainly Saint Andrews has those,
Speaker 2: so you know, just borrowing things like that and encouraging
Speaker 2: an architect to amplify some of those shapes and of
Speaker 2: course like Comments which doesn't have these huge blowout you
Speaker 2: know ridges the way Sand Valley or Mammoth does. So
Speaker 2: I mean we could we could spend you know, ten
Speaker 2: podcasts talking about the ways that we borrow. But the
Speaker 2: big theme is that we go there, we find inspiration,
Speaker 2: and we bring it back and we apply it maybe
Speaker 2: in unique ways and make it our own. But we
Speaker 2: were just constantly, you know, inspired by the game that's
Speaker 2: that's played there.
Speaker 3: I've been reading a lot about Ceb McDonald, just rereading
Speaker 3: really and I think, you know, American golf the tale
Speaker 3: is all the time is borrowing from you know, Scotland
Speaker 3: England and Ireland. You know that is really the best.
Speaker 3: What created the greatest generation of golf architecture in American history.
Speaker 3: So you know this is nothing new in American golf design.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, So many of our greatest architects came from abroad.
Speaker 1: With with Commons.
Speaker 3: You mentioned Prestwick's rolling fairways and North Barracks to the
Speaker 3: fairways of two and seventeen. That shared space that's unbelievable.
Speaker 3: Something I've wondered is in Commons is you know much more.
Speaker 3: It's not a wild dunescape like you encounter at Mammoth
Speaker 3: Dune's or Sand Valley or even sedge in spots. It's
Speaker 3: i would say, more in the vein of Lido in
Speaker 3: terms of topographical interest.
Speaker 1: How is the Lido project?
Speaker 3: The idea of taking something flat and creating everything change
Speaker 3: the way you guys look at pieces of property.
Speaker 2: It's completely changed the way I'd looked at it, right,
Speaker 2: I mean I always saw like like minimalism, as like
Speaker 2: that like the goal somehow right as opposed to like
Speaker 2: it's a wonderful method that should be applied in a
Speaker 2: case like Rodeo Dunes to build a fabulous golf course.
Speaker 2: But the goal is to make fabulous golf courses, and
Speaker 2: there are different ways to do that. And because Leto
Speaker 2: was so different, it was so fun, right, because it
Speaker 2: was new. I'd never done anything like that before, and
Speaker 2: it gave me confidence that, you know, maybe with the
Speaker 2: right architect, you know, we could build something that's pretty
Speaker 2: pretty compelling. So Commons Commons was our original driving range, right,
Speaker 2: I mean that was maybe a third of it or
Speaker 2: a quarter of it. Driving ranges tend to be pretty flat.
Speaker 2: This was the flattest piece of ground on the property, right,
Speaker 2: and so we were we were starting from a flat
Speaker 2: piece of sand. Most of the contours from them, from
Speaker 2: the Commons came from a lake that we were building.
Speaker 2: That's forty acres that now exist, and it's it's it's gorgeous.
Speaker 2: But we needed to put that sand somewhere. So that
Speaker 2: enormous dune that you see behind the first green, you know,
Speaker 2: some people call it Mount Doom. Rob Dumas are head
Speaker 2: of agroaderby I call it Megala Dune. It's a great
Speaker 2: way to tire six and four year olds out. The
Speaker 2: kids just go up and down.
Speaker 1: But that's what I always think.
Speaker 2: It's a double black diamond slutting Hill. Yeah, it's great
Speaker 2: that for me, but you know that so that came
Speaker 2: from the lake and we still had extra sand, so
Speaker 2: we started just dumping it somewhat randomly all over the
Speaker 2: all over the golf course and and then just Jimmy
Speaker 2: used that to riff on his routing and golf hole.
Speaker 2: So you know, the features were, in my mind are
Speaker 2: very much of the Scottish scale, right, which Ledo certainly
Speaker 2: is as well. We weren't going to manufacture huge, you know,
Speaker 2: sandy features, but we're going to you know, see what
Speaker 2: we could do with, you know, eye height and below
Speaker 2: and there's features bigger than that, the seventh green place
Speaker 2: up up the hill to sort of a blind green,
Speaker 2: but most of them, you know, emulate some of the
Speaker 2: scale that I love so much in Scotland. In particular.
Speaker 3: Gil Hans has used the term for that scale on
Speaker 3: this podcast, and his Philly accent, I think is what
Speaker 3: also makes me remember it. You know, it's a soft age.
Speaker 3: He says, human human sized scale. Yeah, like human size scale,
Speaker 3: but you know in his accent is human and I
Speaker 3: you know, when I think about Scottish golf, like that
Speaker 3: might be my favorite thing about it. Is the preponderance
Speaker 3: of human sky size scale, where you know, it's not
Speaker 3: as taxing. And I think you guys imagine this golf
Speaker 3: course being a big afternoon destination, just you know, I
Speaker 3: think that's obviously like from a utility standpoint, when I
Speaker 3: think about your resort. The Sandbox has been such a
Speaker 3: popular hit. I mean where to the point where it's
Speaker 3: like almost impossible to get a tea time in the
Speaker 3: afternoon because of the popularity.
Speaker 2: And just to interrupt it, I mean that was certainly
Speaker 2: designed as an afternoon golf course. It's become so popular
Speaker 2: that it's full in the morning and there are many
Speaker 2: days where it gets more round than sand Valley or Magnothuans. Right,
Speaker 2: So like first pick is afternoon, but the morning is
Speaker 2: filled up. And I hope that's what we find it
Speaker 2: commons as well.
Speaker 3: Well, that's what I was thinking when I was just
Speaker 3: thinking about this golf course, it was this is a
Speaker 3: great this is an amazing warm up course, right where
Speaker 3: like I you know, for people that like to hit
Speaker 3: the range or something, and it's like you have the
Speaker 3: opportunity to kind of just like warm up and quickly
Speaker 3: zip around, especially if you got one of those early times.
Speaker 3: So like, if you're a faster group, you could just
Speaker 3: fly around and it's like, you know this this golf course,
Speaker 3: with it being twelve holes, gives you the opportunity to
Speaker 3: potentially have just a massive day if you wanted to
Speaker 3: just go all out and you could play three golf
Speaker 3: courses in one day and it would you know. One
Speaker 3: of the things I like about it is the idea
Speaker 3: that there are still drivers in play. I think that's
Speaker 3: been one of my big sticking points with the idea
Speaker 3: of short courses in America is that everybody looks at
Speaker 3: maybe it's the preserve, the sandbox, the cradle, and it's like, okay,
Speaker 3: every hole has to be under one hundred and fifty yards,
Speaker 3: and it's like, no, we can have drivers, we can
Speaker 3: have different things. That's one of my favorite things I'd
Speaker 3: love to talk about. You know, people are you know,
Speaker 3: probably don't know. You know, I don't think Jim is
Speaker 3: a household name, but if you are in golf architecture circles,
Speaker 3: he is a household name. One of the more talented
Speaker 3: individuals in the in the space. How did you kind
Speaker 3: of start to work with Jim Craig, And I think
Speaker 3: like it's important, Like this has been a collaboration between
Speaker 3: you and Jim Craig, very kind of a evolving process,
Speaker 3: we could call it, and one that you've had a
Speaker 3: lot of input and impact on.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's certainly mostly mostly Jim, but it's you know,
Speaker 2: he's he look, he came up working with Bill Corr
Speaker 2: and Bill Corr is you know, he just loves riffing
Speaker 2: off of any idea, right, He is so collaborative. Now,
Speaker 2: he's certainly the gds who Ian Ben who who make
Speaker 2: it great. But he's just looking for any idea to
Speaker 2: riff off of. And that's why it's so fun to
Speaker 2: work with because whatever you throw out, he'll just he'll
Speaker 2: just make it great. So that's what Jimmy knows. And
Speaker 2: he's he's wonderfully open to collaboration. But he's certainly the
Speaker 2: one coming up, you know, with the big ideas that
Speaker 2: make the golf grade. But I met him at Sand Valley,
Speaker 2: you know, in the with the first course in particular,
Speaker 2: but the first two courses. You know, my dad was
Speaker 2: calling the shots and working with the architects, and you
Speaker 2: know I went to all of our walks with Bill
Speaker 2: and my dad, but I also lived up at Sand Valley,
Speaker 2: and I figured maybe one of the ways I could
Speaker 2: have a greater impact on the golf course is by
Speaker 2: developing relationships with the associates and shapers, which you know,
Speaker 2: my dad had never done because he works with Bill
Speaker 2: and Tom and David. So I developed a relationship and
Speaker 2: you know, trust with Jim over the course of building
Speaker 2: the first course at Sand Valley, and he and I
Speaker 2: sort of sneakily started, you know, working on the sandbox,
Speaker 2: and he did the first routing of that golf course
Speaker 2: and we put I think the first routing was twenty
Speaker 2: two greens. Put He put twenty two greens in the
Speaker 2: ground before my dad had seen it or Bill had
Speaker 2: seen it, and and Bill liked it so much that
Speaker 2: he took it over right, and they worked together. Ben
Speaker 2: spent an enormous amount of time working on it. And
Speaker 2: that's where I really got to know Jim, right, Bill
Speaker 2: like just building building a golf course with him, and
Speaker 2: I really I really liked Jim. I'm you know, a
Speaker 2: sucker for grinders, you know, and he just he they
Speaker 2: all everybody in that team worked so hard, but you
Speaker 2: know he, I mean, he gave his life to that
Speaker 2: golf course. He would he would he would put the
Speaker 2: floodlights on his truck on and keep shaping into the night.
Speaker 2: You know, like it was a summer, you know, a
Speaker 2: manic summer of creation, and I just wanted to make
Speaker 2: sure he stayed safe and healthy. But he was. It
Speaker 2: was just a brilliant, you know, flash of genius. I
Speaker 2: think you know those greens that that he and Ryan
Speaker 2: and Bill and Ben made. So that's how I got
Speaker 2: to know him.
Speaker 3: I do feel like any that's that's experienced the Sandbox,
Speaker 3: I think I feel like there is a popular thought
Speaker 3: is and the question is is this the best course
Speaker 3: at sand Valley? And that's not a shot at the
Speaker 3: other courses. It's more of a you get done playing
Speaker 3: the Sandbox and you were just you know, I remember
Speaker 3: I was there on opening day of the Sandbox and
Speaker 3: I had I was doing a chat with with Bill
Speaker 3: that night, and I had a couple like meetings sporadically
Speaker 3: through the day. And this was you know, this was
Speaker 3: early days. Sand Valley wasn't as busy as it is now.
Speaker 3: And I went out and played the Sandbox like seven
Speaker 3: or eight times, and every time I played with a
Speaker 3: different a single different club, and it was one of
Speaker 3: the most fun days of golf that I've I think
Speaker 3: about it all the time because it was just like
Speaker 3: every time, like every hole presented so much differently when
Speaker 3: you change the club.
Speaker 2: It's such a fun way to play it. One of
Speaker 2: the times I played with you, maybe you were just
Speaker 2: playing with the six iron, because I'm not sure, but
Speaker 2: on the second hal I remember just the stinger of
Speaker 2: a six iron hit so envious of you, know, that
Speaker 2: trajectory and running the ball up under that that green.
Speaker 2: So that might have been your six iron round, but
Speaker 2: it was impressive.
Speaker 3: Well you were You're you're a putter guy, so you
Speaker 3: like going the putter the whole way around. I'm envious
Speaker 3: to that. I don't like putting from off greens. Yeah,
Speaker 3: with Jim, you know, I guess I guess this is
Speaker 3: a you know, like you guys, I think like you know,
Speaker 3: this is this is a common top topic I think
Speaker 3: in in golf architects or circles is like everybody wants
Speaker 3: you guys to give new people shots. At the same time,
Speaker 3: there is like if you can hire Bill or Tom,
Speaker 3: you know, why don't you like right like they they
Speaker 3: kind of deliver hits. How is it working with someone
Speaker 3: so you worked with jim on the Sandbox, you got
Speaker 3: to see how he worked with Bill as a supervisor.
Speaker 3: How is it working with a new architect on a
Speaker 3: project when you've had so much experience, whether it be
Speaker 3: working with David Kidd, Tom Doak or Bill Core and
Speaker 3: Ben Crenshaw.
Speaker 2: Well, thus far it's been awesome, and Jimmy Craig has
Speaker 2: been you know, the primary example with Rodeo Dunes, we
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time working on of course there
Speaker 2: and and now the comments Brian Schneider, you know, I
Speaker 2: worked with him the Leado. He was a he was
Speaker 2: a co architect on that, and we've spent a fair
Speaker 2: amount of time, you know, walking his routing in Florida.
Speaker 2: So it's wonderful. I think that's sort of my approach,
Speaker 2: like get to know people tangentially, you know, and then
Speaker 2: so it's not a total leap of faith, Like I
Speaker 2: saw what he was capable with, Brian was capable of
Speaker 2: at the Lido, and I saw what Jimmy was capable
Speaker 2: of at Sandbox. Yeah, I think you'd have to be
Speaker 2: you know, crazy right now not to go with Tom
Speaker 2: and Bill because experience does matter, And they're both keep
Speaker 2: getting better, you know, and and they both have extraordinary teams.
Speaker 2: You know, they're deep, uh you know so. But but
Speaker 2: I'm excited to work with you know, some new architects
Speaker 2: and working you know with jim at Rodeo Dunes. I started,
Speaker 2: you know, pretending to be sort of armchair architect, and
Speaker 2: I routed my own golf course for the second course
Speaker 2: at at Rodeo, and I kept asking friends who are
Speaker 2: architects to come out and show me what you got
Speaker 2: and if I don't think it's better, I'll steal from
Speaker 2: it and incorporate it in my running. So a lot
Speaker 2: of people came out and helped, and Jimmy came out
Speaker 2: and helped for a day or two, and then he
Speaker 2: just never left. He just kept making it better better.
Speaker 2: A year went by. I'm like Jimmy, like, eventually I
Speaker 2: had to hire him because he, you know, he just
Speaker 2: kept showing up, you know, his truck and walking around
Speaker 2: in circles. So I just felt obliged to hire. And
Speaker 2: there was really, you know, very little of my routing left.
Speaker 2: So that's how we got the job. It's a great
Speaker 2: way to get a job, to show.
Speaker 3: Up, Yeah, I don't know if you're a Sidefeld fan,
Speaker 3: but that's the Penske playbook when when George goes in
Speaker 3: for a job interview, the guy has to leave and
Speaker 3: he like is saying, effectively, we'd love to have you.
Speaker 3: He doesn't know if he got the job, so he
Speaker 3: just shows up.
Speaker 2: What the alternative is you don't have a job.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Is a classic Sidefeld episode. It's funny.
Speaker 3: It was on TV the other day. I just was
Speaker 3: like flipping through I think I was out of town.
Speaker 3: I was out of the road and I saw Sidefeld
Speaker 3: on the hotel TV and I was like, I put
Speaker 3: it on and that was an episode.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, this is one of my favorites.
Speaker 3: With with shorter, non regulation courses, is there a freedom
Speaker 3: that it gives the developer in the sense of like
Speaker 3: what you can build with it not being a eighteen
Speaker 3: hole regulation golf course?
Speaker 2: You know? I think so, And certainly I think Sandbox
Speaker 2: was the test of that. And part of it was,
Speaker 2: you know, you're hitting wedges or six irons, but you know,
Speaker 2: into greens they're shorter shots, and we thought, you know
Speaker 2: that the best you know that. Certainly, the Bunkers defended
Speaker 2: but the greens are the defense of that course, and
Speaker 2: we very deliberately amped those up, and I think the
Speaker 2: response has been extremely positive. People love playing those greens,
Speaker 2: and I think they are the best greens at Sand Valley.
Speaker 2: They're just they're they're really fun. And you know the
Speaker 2: comments you have par fours, there's one par five and
Speaker 2: asked you to be very precise. But if we didn't
Speaker 2: amp up some of the contours and the fairways and
Speaker 2: around the greens, it would it would just be sort
Speaker 2: of an easy course, which which would be which should
Speaker 2: be fine. But really the greens of of the commons
Speaker 2: are it's primary defense. It's wall to wall fescue out
Speaker 2: there right for how many acres that golf course is.
Speaker 2: We see the entire thing, and then we'll establish the
Speaker 2: mo lines for the fairways. But you know, a player
Speaker 2: like me could just hit driver, you know, anywhere. But
Speaker 2: if if I'm out of position, even within the fairway,
Speaker 2: it'll be very hard, you know, to get on some
Speaker 2: of those greens from the wrong position. And then if
Speaker 2: you missed them, it shouldn't be too hard to make
Speaker 2: a bogie to get your next shot up on the
Speaker 2: green and tupat but they're gonna you have to hit
Speaker 2: spectacular shots to make birdies out there, and a par
Speaker 2: is very well earned. And but you should be able
Speaker 2: to go around and make bogies if you're a regular
Speaker 2: hack like me.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: This kind of ties back to how kind of the
Speaker 3: Lido changed your view of of of what you guys
Speaker 3: can do with different property. I feel like your business,
Speaker 3: generally speaking with the regulation golf courses, is to provide
Speaker 3: people with really wow moments from I can't believe I'm
Speaker 3: playing golf in this space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when it cut when.
Speaker 3: It turns to these smaller projects, whether it's the Preserve, Shorties,
Speaker 3: sandbox and here, it's more and I think the lidos
Speaker 3: in this bucket, it's it's more wow moments from the
Speaker 3: features that are built on the golf course.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, Well, so here's what I would say,
Speaker 2: and I want to I want to tell the story
Speaker 2: of the tenth and eleventh and twelve holes of the Commons.
Speaker 2: But that is certainly what our goal was at the Commons.
Speaker 2: And I panicked a little bit when we started, Like
Speaker 2: I knew Jim would build a really interesting golf course
Speaker 2: with cool you know, Scottish like features. But I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know if people get it. You
Speaker 2: know what he did ultimately and why I think it
Speaker 2: actually does fit the mold of some of the you know,
Speaker 2: the typical dream golf course. Is it is extraordinarily beautiful, right,
Speaker 2: He's added this beauty with the big dude in the water.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's right up there with some of
Speaker 2: those gorgeous views that you have at Bandoned in Sand Valley.
Speaker 2: So it was not the plan, but I think it
Speaker 2: and certainly what you said about the features is absolutely true.
Speaker 2: But I think there's wonderful surprise. Is it's gorgeous, And
Speaker 2: can I tell you the story about the peninsula.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, that's what podcasts are for.
Speaker 2: So it was it was a nine to our golf
Speaker 2: course and we're under construction the first year. We're going
Speaker 2: to build it all in a year, and we just
Speaker 2: kept changing the routing, like we literally have all these
Speaker 2: ghost greens shaped that are in the middle of fairways
Speaker 2: that we never built. Routing kept change, we never seated
Speaker 2: anything because it just kept it was so fun. We
Speaker 2: kept tweaking it, and it cost a fortune to keep
Speaker 2: rebuilding because we're manufacturing this, but it kept getting better.
Speaker 2: And at the same time, we're designing these villages. So
Speaker 2: this forty acre lake, we have a peninsula sticking out
Speaker 2: into it, and we measure fifty times cup months. So
Speaker 2: we're spending a couple of years designing this village. And
Speaker 2: the peninsula was sort of where it all came together.
Speaker 2: And we started arguing about how much density to have
Speaker 2: out on the peninsula. And the end sticks out like
Speaker 2: a mushroom, and I'm saying, we're the golf guys. The
Speaker 2: best real estate goes to golf. We're gonna have a
Speaker 2: putting course out there. It's gonna be amazing. And it
Speaker 2: was like this battle back and forth, and you know,
Speaker 2: how much of that peninsula should be putting course and
Speaker 2: how much should be homes or restaurants or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: So we argued about that for six months, and this
Speaker 2: was all on paper because the lake didn't exist. We
Speaker 2: started building it. And I came out after this massive
Speaker 2: hole was dug. It was the fall of the Spring
Speaker 2: or winner, and I'm standing there on what's now the
Speaker 2: tenth tea and I was like, oh, we we missed
Speaker 2: this big time. This entire peninsula is golf. This is
Speaker 2: this is spectacular. This could be the best golf at
Speaker 2: the resort. So if the team had accepted my punting
Speaker 2: green six months earlier, they would have gotten all these
Speaker 2: homes and all this real estate. But we wiped it out.
Speaker 2: I mean that day, you know, that instant, that was
Speaker 2: all gone and now it's all golf, and there are
Speaker 2: these beautiful water holes, and that tenth hole, I think
Speaker 2: it is my favorite hole at the resort. And it's
Speaker 2: it's it's you know, Jim did an amazing job. I was
Speaker 2: worried that you have these great Scottish Lynx holes and
Speaker 2: then these gorgeous, dramatic water holes and they'd be totally disjointed.
Speaker 2: And I think he did such a fabulous job bringing
Speaker 2: you know, the bringing the links into those those water holes,
Speaker 2: and it's such a dramatic, exciting, gorgeous finish. So I
Speaker 2: tell Jim's most expensive golf course ever built, not just
Speaker 2: because we rebuilt it ten times, but because of the
Speaker 2: opportunity cost of wiping out that village. You know, it
Speaker 2: was surrounded by the Scottish village, and he every trip
Speaker 2: he'd wipe out another neighborhood, you know, and and I
Speaker 2: kept saying, you know, dream golf, the golf comes first.
Speaker 2: But I was tested on that because there'd be like this,
Speaker 2: you know, ten acres of a village and he'd say,
Speaker 2: you know, we could have the edge of a fairway
Speaker 2: play through that. It better be good, Jim. If it's
Speaker 2: not good, and we wipe that out. So now there's
Speaker 2: very little left but except for a pretty cool golf course.
Speaker 3: Having stayed in some of those homes around the lake,
Speaker 3: Like I will say, when you're coming at the end
Speaker 3: of the day, and I mean, this is the visit.
Speaker 3: One of the you know, prime utilities of this golf
Speaker 3: course is end a day golf. When you're coming down
Speaker 3: at the end of the day and you can obviously
Speaker 3: you can see this hole from the road and you're
Speaker 3: looking across that lake and the sun's going down. It
Speaker 3: is absolutely stunning. It is an incredible place to be.
Speaker 2: It's so pretty. That was, you know, a manufactured lake.
Speaker 2: You know. Santos, who has been the foreman who's built
Speaker 2: all of our golf courses, has become such an extraordinary artist.
Speaker 2: He and his team, coupled with Collect Collins Coco who's
Speaker 2: on the development team, they sort of not design built.
Speaker 2: They just built that and made it beautiful. And the
Speaker 2: twelfth Hall, which is the one hole we haven't finished yet.
Speaker 2: The view from behind that green that you're describing, it's
Speaker 2: the best view on the property and it's to me
Speaker 2: it stands up against really any great finishing hole looking
Speaker 2: out that's where we're going to have, you know, some
Speaker 2: food trucks in the trees in the shade overlooking that
Speaker 2: setting sun, and I think it's going to be a
Speaker 2: place that a lot of our guests are going to
Speaker 2: want to hang out at the end of the day.
Speaker 3: All right, let's talk a little bit about your new places.
Speaker 3: Rodeo Dunes and wild Spring Dunes two new developments that
Speaker 3: have been announced. How do what are what are those properties?
Speaker 3: Like you obviously, I think like everybody knows bandon ocean side,
Speaker 3: So these are.
Speaker 1: Two inland sandy areas.
Speaker 3: What how would you compare or give a visual of
Speaker 3: what these golf golf properties are are similar to?
Speaker 2: So to me, Rodeo Dunes feels irish, you know, just
Speaker 2: every time I'm out there, I feel like I'm in Ireland.
Speaker 2: We've been in a drought the last couple of years,
Speaker 2: so it's you know, there's wildflowers, and there's color. But
Speaker 2: the first time I saw the property it was emerald green,
Speaker 2: and you know, it feels like certainly like that. Maybe
Speaker 2: the Hinches is a great a great example. And there's
Speaker 2: a lot of variety to the size of the dunes,
Speaker 2: so it's it's like it's not like any one place,
Speaker 2: but it's big and it's brawny, you know, like like
Speaker 2: the dunes of Ireland. And I think that's that's the
Speaker 2: best description I could come up with. And you know,
Speaker 2: on Bill's course is it's big and brawny. The last
Speaker 2: six holes are some of the most dramatic and exciting,
Speaker 2: you know, holes that I've seen anywhere. And he embraces
Speaker 2: these big features, these big dunes, and the first twelve
Speaker 2: aren't you know, aren't timid either. So Rodeo Dunes is
Speaker 2: I would describe as Irish. But in the plains, you know,
Speaker 2: under the range, you look out and you see the
Speaker 2: mountains in the background. It's it's so gorgeous, it's so peaceful.
Speaker 2: It's barren, you know, prairie with dunes. It's a beautiful place.
Speaker 2: Wild Spring Dunes has a lot of different a lot
Speaker 2: of variety in the sort of the ecology, and it
Speaker 2: has these ravines that remind me a lot of you know,
Speaker 2: Lake Bluff, you know, the northern suburb ravines of Chicago.
Speaker 2: And it has ridges like sand Valley, the sand Ridges.
Speaker 2: It has this feature we call Mount Baldy. It's just
Speaker 2: this cone, this huge cone, you know of a dune,
Speaker 2: where both thelf the first two golf courses start and
Speaker 2: Bills finishes. It has these rolling dramatic hills on the
Speaker 2: south end, which reminds me a lot of Pine Valley,
Speaker 2: Big big bold, you know Sandy Hills. And then in
Speaker 2: the center it has this very gentle, elegant, beautiful ground
Speaker 2: that is it reminds me of Pinehurst in its topography,
Speaker 2: but also in just sort of the exposed sandy barren.
Speaker 2: And when I got involved in the property, there were
Speaker 2: three golf courses round it. So in the area I
Speaker 2: just described, there were two, and then there's another area
Speaker 2: which by comparison was a big step down, where there's
Speaker 2: a third. And I said, look, a condition of me
Speaker 2: getting involved, the third one's gone right. There's just no
Speaker 2: way it can be as good as the first too,
Speaker 2: and the first two could be very very good. But
Speaker 2: if we combine them into one supercourse. It could be spectacular.
Speaker 2: So if I do this, we're just building one golf course.
Speaker 2: And everybody signed up for that. And Tom, you know,
Speaker 2: he felt sort of bad taking from the second golf architect.
Speaker 3: I feel like he always does. He always feels bad
Speaker 3: about about five minutes.
Speaker 2: Let's keep it. Really, he got over that pretty quick
Speaker 2: when he saw his first draft, and you know, no,
Speaker 2: he was. I had to twist his arm because he
Speaker 2: you know it, you know, because he cares about his
Speaker 2: friend Bill Court. But I asked for Bill's blessing and
Speaker 2: Bill was like, of course, it sounds like the right
Speaker 2: decision and uh. And with that Tom routed a great
Speaker 2: golf course. One of the things I told Brett was
Speaker 2: that who found the site was if we make decisions
Speaker 2: for the right reasons. I have found that serendipity tends
Speaker 2: to work out and something will happen. We don't know
Speaker 2: what it will be. And alone and behold land adjacent
Speaker 2: to ours, which we'd all overlooked on Topo, including Bill
Speaker 2: kre just looked way too severe on Topo. When Mike Angus,
Speaker 2: who was coming up with their land plan, went out
Speaker 2: and walked it, he said I think this is pretty good.
Speaker 2: He called Bill, and Bill flew out and Bill said,
Speaker 2: this is really good. So we're now on the land
Speaker 2: for the second golf course, which we hope Bill and
Speaker 2: Ben will build for us one day. And it has
Speaker 2: these very dramatic ravines like I described on Tom's and
Speaker 2: then sort of tilting Sandy, you know, Fairway. So really excited.
Speaker 2: It's gonna be different than the first course, and I'm
Speaker 2: excited to see what they come up with.
Speaker 3: It sounds like a very diverse site, which I think
Speaker 3: like something that I've grown to really understand about what
Speaker 3: I appreciate. I do really love golf courses that visit
Speaker 3: different almost micro set within one big setting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he you know Tom's routing does it? It
Speaker 2: goes you know Baldy Ridge, Ravine, Pine Valley, Pinehurst, Baldy Pinehurst, Ravine, Pinehurst,
Speaker 2: Revine Right. It is so interesting how he goes in
Speaker 2: and out of those areas. It's a brilliant routing.
Speaker 3: I'm so excited for It'd be great for public golf
Speaker 3: in Texas also Colorado. I think like one of the
Speaker 3: fascinating things. And this is less golf architecture and more
Speaker 3: from a just golf destination place with particularly Rodeo Dunes
Speaker 3: is you know, the easiest, probably the easiest airport in
Speaker 3: the world outside of maybe Dallas to get to. You
Speaker 3: are just very within an hour of that in twenty.
Speaker 2: Eight minutes, it's under thirty minutes.
Speaker 3: It's every time I'm in Denver Airport and I'm walking
Speaker 3: through it, I'm like, I cannot believe all the places
Speaker 3: that Denver flies direct to, like these little cities all
Speaker 3: over the place.
Speaker 1: Everywhere flies direct. I mean it flies direct to Traverse City.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, flies direct, Abandon, you know, it flies everywhere.
Speaker 3: So that to me is like a fascinating business case
Speaker 3: because I think like that's been one of the smash
Speaker 3: hits of Sam Valley is just the within striking distance
Speaker 3: of Chicago, Milwaukee, Madison, Minneapolis, you know, large swaths of Iowa,
Speaker 3: and it's like that Denver that's it almost makes it
Speaker 3: on steroids.
Speaker 1: You know. The idea of being able to get off.
Speaker 3: A plane flying to Denver and be there in thirty
Speaker 3: minutes is astonishing.
Speaker 2: Well, you play thirty six day of arrival day and
Speaker 2: departure right So Denver, there's no I think, at least
Speaker 2: for us, there's no better national estin nation for golf resort,
Speaker 2: and Texas is there's no better driving market. It's it's
Speaker 2: like San Valian's there. You know, we have Milwaukee and
Speaker 2: Minneapolis and Chicago. They have Dallas, Austin and Houston. You know, Dallas,
Speaker 2: Dallas and Houston are less than a three hour drive.
Speaker 2: So there's even more people than than in the Midwest
Speaker 2: who could drive to wild Spring Dunes. And there's nowhere
Speaker 2: near the amount of great accessible golf in Texas as
Speaker 2: in the Midwest, right, I mean, the Midwest is so
Speaker 2: stacked with fabulous golf, right Wisconsin, Minneapolis, Illinois, Michigan. I
Speaker 2: mean it's we're just we're so blessed as per capita.
Speaker 2: I don't want to slight any courses there, but per capita,
Speaker 2: Texas is not blessed with that, and the courses being
Speaker 2: built are very elite, very bunch of private clubs right
Speaker 2: now that many of which are most of which I
Speaker 2: think can be really amazing, but just inaccessible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the the overarching golf market in Texas is very
Speaker 3: very expensive. If you want to join a club in
Speaker 3: every club, no matter what type of course it has,
Speaker 3: is jam full.
Speaker 1: And then you have you know, the public market.
Speaker 3: There are some some good public golf courses, but the
Speaker 3: land near major metro areas in Texas are just is
Speaker 3: just not built.
Speaker 1: You can't have really great golf there.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to slight it, but like you know,
Speaker 3: there are a lot of factors that go into it,
Speaker 3: particularly land and soils.
Speaker 1: So you've got a lot of stuff going on. What's
Speaker 1: kind of next for you?
Speaker 2: Look, there's a lot of projects. You know, there's Florida
Speaker 2: as well. There's more on the burners, and you know
Speaker 2: we're just getting started. But I guess it would be
Speaker 2: nice if we could explain a major decision that's going
Speaker 2: to affect the timing of those developments. I'd like to
Speaker 2: share with you if if the plumber isn't here yet.
Speaker 1: Plumber is not here. You know, this was a shower.
Speaker 3: Leaky shower has really thrown a wrench pun intended thrown
Speaker 3: a wrench in.
Speaker 2: My So I had the mouse guy over today. We
Speaker 2: had a leaky faucet which created this oasis. Well the
Speaker 2: mice would come to drinking bathe and that was this morning.
Speaker 2: So I hear you. But you know, we mentioned where
Speaker 2: the comments started in twenty twenty two in Scotland. I
Speaker 2: was back in Scotland, this time in North Barrack with
Speaker 2: my family this last summer in twenty and twenty four,
Speaker 2: and we had a wonderful We had a wonderful visit.
Speaker 2: When we were in Edinburgh, we kept driving out to
Speaker 2: the beaches and we just decided, let's, you know, let's
Speaker 2: live in North Barrack, so we could, you know, walk
Speaker 2: to the beaches. And I took a trip with some
Speaker 2: really good friends and great guys, one of whom lived
Speaker 2: lives in North Barrick and the other two or northern irishmen,
Speaker 2: and we flew up to the Arctic Circle to play golf,
Speaker 2: believe it or not, two days after the summer solstice,
Speaker 2: and we went to La footin Links which might be
Speaker 2: more drink golf than any other place I've ever been. Frodo,
Speaker 2: who is the developer, opened that golf course a couple
Speaker 2: of years before Bandon Dunes. It is all passion and
Speaker 2: it's built what might be the most beautiful place you know,
Speaker 2: the archipelago of I think it's the Foot Archipelago. It's otherworldly,
Speaker 2: it's stunning. The golf is so fun, so beautiful, so
Speaker 2: good you know, the restaurants and his great grandfather's farmhouse
Speaker 2: overlooking this, you know, hour Glass White Sand Bay where
Speaker 2: there's a caravan park and when you eat, your shoulder
Speaker 2: to shoulder with people on their caravanning summer vacations. And
Speaker 2: it was, you know, about as much fun as I've
Speaker 2: had on a golf trip, you know, and I've had
Speaker 2: some great golf trips, but it was two days after
Speaker 2: the summer solstice, and in the Arctic Circle, the sun
Speaker 2: it doesn't set. It sort of starts coming down and
Speaker 2: then it stops and it goes back. So it was
Speaker 2: a bit of a manic trip. We were playing golf
Speaker 2: around the clock, you know, three thirty in the morning,
Speaker 2: we're still playing golf. We were climbing mountains between rounds.
Speaker 2: We went to local parties, and you know, I was
Speaker 2: diagnosed with bipolar disorder in twenty twelve. I've been medicated
Speaker 2: since then. I think a little under medicated. And there's
Speaker 2: different things that could sort of trigger higher energy. And
Speaker 2: the energy has been fabulous for developing golf resorts. Right
Speaker 2: It's just sort of like, you know, if I need
Speaker 2: to work twenty hour days or sixteen hour days like
Speaker 2: I have that on reserve, but in the summer solstice,
Speaker 2: I just I just had so much fun, and you know,
Speaker 2: I was a hypomatic, but I was repped up and
Speaker 2: when I got home, I needed to sort of get
Speaker 2: on the same wavelength as my family, right And basically
Speaker 2: I slept in three days because we were playing as
Speaker 2: many golf holes as we could. And you know, I've
Speaker 2: always drank alcohol, you know, to sort of deal with stress,
Speaker 2: and I've also drank alcohol to slow my mind down, right,
Speaker 2: sort of being undermedicated. It's you know, I sometimes I
Speaker 2: go a long time without drinking, but my brain gets going.
Speaker 2: I drink in the evening after I put my kids
Speaker 2: down to slow it down. And that day I got back,
Speaker 2: I drank before I put my kids to sleep, and
Speaker 2: I was I started to slur my words when I
Speaker 2: was reading them their nighttime story, you know, and I
Speaker 2: overdid it and I had to tell my wife, and
Speaker 2: it was it was just the worst feeling in the world.
Speaker 2: So I stopped drinking, you know, that week, and it's
Speaker 2: been really healthy for me. That was about seven months ago,
Speaker 2: and it's been a really busy seven months. You know.
Speaker 2: We're planning in Florida. We're now under construction in Colorado
Speaker 2: and Texas. But my sobriety has given me just a
Speaker 2: little bit of space mixed in with all that work,
Speaker 2: to be a little more self reflective and to think about,
Speaker 2: you know, just who I am and what I want.
Speaker 2: And over the last seven months, I've realized that, you know,
Speaker 2: as a person with incredible drive and ambition, I'm able
Speaker 2: to do what I love and I drag people along with,
Speaker 2: you know, with me, and not everybody has signed up
Speaker 2: for that. You know, our team at Sand Valley has
Speaker 2: been so spectacular and making it all work when I
Speaker 2: just keep adding more and more and more, they make
Speaker 2: it work and it's extraordinary. But we've had burnout. I've
Speaker 2: burned some people out, you know, really good people who
Speaker 2: should still be with us. And I need to, you know,
Speaker 2: I need to figure out a more sustainable way to grow,
Speaker 2: you know, the next twenty golf courses and you know,
Speaker 2: more more than anybody in the world. My my wife
Speaker 2: is the most supportive person in my life, you know,
Speaker 2: by far, like many of us. But you know, when
Speaker 2: she met me at Sand Valley, I was living in
Speaker 2: a tent right and then we built a house at
Speaker 2: the resort and our children were born, and I'm working
Speaker 2: around the clock, and she's in the woods, you know,
Speaker 2: taking care of our kids, putting her career on hold,
Speaker 2: with no friends, no family, and she's been nothing but supportive.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, I just keep piling it on,
Speaker 2: right like that. The more capable I become, the better
Speaker 2: our team gets. I just accelerate and I accelerate, and
Speaker 2: at the end of the day, that's that's not sustainable
Speaker 2: if you want to have a healthy, happy family. So
Speaker 2: I'm going to press the pause button on any projects
Speaker 2: and there are a lot of them, you know, and
Speaker 2: many of which we haven't talked about yet. On any
Speaker 2: projects not under construction, and you know, spend a good
Speaker 2: chunk of time, you know, prioritizing my family, you know,
Speaker 2: my own self care. It's always been work first and
Speaker 2: then probably kids second, you know, at jossin third. And
Speaker 2: I've had that in the uh, in the wrong order.
Speaker 2: So I need to figure out how to you know,
Speaker 2: to get my priorities you know, straight and aligned, and
Speaker 2: and then and I will once we do that, we're
Speaker 2: going to We're going to get to it. And I
Speaker 2: suspect that a structure, an organization will be a little different,
Speaker 2: but we've got a lot to do and I'm looking
Speaker 2: forward to it and it's going to be fun. But
Speaker 2: we're gonna we're going to slow down for a little
Speaker 2: bit here and uh, you know, catch I catch my
Speaker 2: breath and h and focus on what's most important, which
Speaker 2: is my family.
Speaker 3: Obviously, thank you for sharing all that. A lot of
Speaker 3: that's very personal with I think I I can relate
Speaker 3: a little bit in starting a business and the things
Speaker 3: that it does. Having a young family, it's it's very difficult,
Speaker 3: especially with travel. I always feel like when when you're
Speaker 3: not around for dinner or wake up, it is particularly stressful.
Speaker 3: And I think, you know something I think about a
Speaker 3: lot at this stage and I have a kid that's
Speaker 3: in the same ballpark as your kids, is like, you know,
Speaker 3: this is these are years that you never get back,
Speaker 3: and it is it is a you know, I think,
Speaker 3: like what what you start and what you the way
Speaker 3: you start something is it is this beautiful time when
Speaker 3: you're figuring stuff out and usually you're at a different
Speaker 3: stage of life than when it really starts to flourish,
Speaker 3: and that the stages of life don't match up with
Speaker 3: the work life balance. Always like when I started this thing.
Speaker 3: I was twenty nine years old, you know there y,
Speaker 3: and I was you know, I was dating my now wife.
Speaker 3: I was I didn't have responsibility, right, and now I
Speaker 3: have more demands of my time than ever before. But
Speaker 3: I have all this at home responsibility. And that's such
Speaker 3: a challenge. And I think you know, it's it's admirable
Speaker 3: to to take a pause and say, hold on, we
Speaker 3: need I need to figure out this this part of
Speaker 3: my life because so much energy.
Speaker 1: I mean, like the stuff that you're doing.
Speaker 3: You could spend all day every day and not get
Speaker 3: to everything you want to get to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, the travel, as you said, I
Speaker 2: mean the nighttime routine, morning routine is really hard hard
Speaker 2: to do alone. And but it's also you know, there's
Speaker 2: I even when I am here, I'm not always here right,
Speaker 2: dreaming about you know, you know, trying to figure out
Speaker 2: what I call these puzzles and and I'm a very
Speaker 2: involved you know, dad, and uh, but but I'm not
Speaker 2: always there, you know, when I'm when I'm here, and
Speaker 2: you know that's something that you know, I need to
Speaker 2: figure out.
Speaker 3: Presence is becoming more and more difficult with technology. I
Speaker 3: think that's yeah, One of the things that I've really
Speaker 3: struggled with is like it's it's night and day when
Speaker 3: you put the phone in another room and and you
Speaker 3: don't allow yourself to be interrupted and versus you know,
Speaker 3: one thing I found the kids.
Speaker 2: Nothing gets past a kid and my son timing. He
Speaker 2: was six. Now, we first thing in the morning, five
Speaker 2: thirty to six. Every morning we play back Gavin right,
Speaker 2: and and I started last year. Oh he's we're both uh,
Speaker 2: you know, well before that he has to stay in
Speaker 2: his room until five thirty. I'm up at three thirty
Speaker 2: or four, so I'm ready to go. But we were,
Speaker 2: you know, I was doing this, you know, just we
Speaker 2: would play every day before I went to school, and
Speaker 2: he always give me a hard time about being on
Speaker 2: my phone. So very quickly I left my phone in
Speaker 2: the other room and we were playing one morning and
Speaker 2: I forgot how he said it, but he was like dad, Dad,
Speaker 2: He was trying to get my attention, and he said,
Speaker 2: I said, tell me, I don't have my phone on me.
Speaker 2: And he said, Dad, I think before we were playing,
Speaker 2: you looked at your phone and whatever it is you
Speaker 2: saw you're thinking about now, like this is a five
Speaker 2: year old, like it was exactly right. You know, I'm
Speaker 2: like looking at it, looking at it, looking at it.
Speaker 2: So these kids that you know, they pick up on everything,
Speaker 2: and yeah, technology is a great way to leave the
Speaker 2: present in a moment.
Speaker 3: As I you know, this is not meant to be
Speaker 3: a parenting episode, but we're here. I did, I've I've been.
Speaker 3: You know, the internet serves you all kinds of things.
Speaker 3: But one thing I saw is that like when you're
Speaker 3: when you're when your kid looks like especially young kid
Speaker 3: looks at you and you're looking at your phone, they
Speaker 3: view that as a form of rejection, which is you know,
Speaker 3: you think about like how many, how many times that
Speaker 3: can happen in a day, and it's like that that's
Speaker 3: a this just this is an aspect of parenting that
Speaker 3: nobody's really you know, this is a new thing with parenting.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: The phones have obviously been around, but finally now we're
Speaker 3: at the point where we see ramifications of phones with
Speaker 3: kids becoming adults. Right, this is like really the first
Speaker 3: awakening of what do phones do to kids? And it's
Speaker 3: a you know, and it's not kids with phones, that's
Speaker 3: a whole Another bucket of things is it's appearents with
Speaker 3: phones around kids.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it basically, you know, what am
Speaker 2: I doing? Why am I so uninteresting that you have
Speaker 2: to be staring down at the screen? And I think
Speaker 2: it's you know, we talk about traveling and a lot
Speaker 2: of people have to travel, and it doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be a ton of time, but if it's quality, right,
Speaker 2: and then that's all they need, you know, that's all
Speaker 2: they need just when you are with them, to be
Speaker 2: super high quality time. And I think we've all seen
Speaker 2: that when we do that kids, kids respond very positively
Speaker 2: to that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I appreciate you sharing that. We will you know,
Speaker 3: I think the golf world will probably be a little
Speaker 3: sad that more of your properties aren't aren't coming at
Speaker 3: rapid pace as they have been. But that being said,
Speaker 3: I think, you know, the reality is setting up a
Speaker 3: more sustainable next next onslaught of builds is a much
Speaker 3: you know, a much more long term model potentially, if
Speaker 3: we want to use the business term. And appreciate you
Speaker 3: coming to talk about the comments, which I'm very excited
Speaker 3: about having walked it with you in the fall last year.
Speaker 2: And let's play it the summer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just a six hour maybe give.
Speaker 2: Me a strokeohol, and we just played with six.
Speaker 3: See you always you always bad mouth your game. I
Speaker 3: I believe there's a great golfer in there, the mentality.
Speaker 3: All right, thank you, Michael. Uh I look forward to
Speaker 3: look forward to seeing all the all the new properties
Speaker 3: and thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2: Thanks Andy, PJ. Thank you many.
Speaker 3: Thank you to Michael for giving us his time and
Speaker 3: then sharing kind of the personal news on his end.
Speaker 1: I think.
Speaker 3: He's got a lot on his plate and obviously understandable
Speaker 3: situation with young kids, especially to take a little time.
Speaker 3: So we will look forward to talking to him more
Speaker 3: as more resorts come online. And big thanks to everybody
Speaker 3: for listening. Big thanks to PJ. Clark for editing and
Speaker 3: producing this podcast. And we will be back next week.
Speaker 3: I think we're going to probably talk a little pro golf,
Speaker 3: maybe mix in a little golf architecture as well.
Speaker 1: All right, thank you,