WEBVTT - Businessweek Extra-Rajiv Shah 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.880 This is Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol Master. 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:09.680 Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Extra. It's our weekly 0:00:09.720 --> 0:00:13.399 podcast featuring a favorite conversation from our week and our 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:16.239 daily radio show. Well, this week we've got the President 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:19.880 of the Rockefeller Foundation, Rajiv Shah, on disrupting the inequities 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:23.480 widened by the pandemic. The Foundation pledged a billion dollars 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.920 this week to help address the COVID nineteen pandemic, expanding 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.280 access to testing and vaccines globally, and also providing the 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.920 foundation to encourage billions of dollars worth of investments in 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:38.280 green energy. It's really all about bringing power electricity to 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.239 the more than eight hundred million people worldwide who do 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.360 not have it. It's all about getting control of COVID 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.800 and ending energy poverty. I talked with him from the 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.600 Toronto Global Forum. But Rockfeller actually has been around for 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:54.040 a hundred and seven years as an institution that worked 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:59.880 on the pandemic influences, So the the expertise and ability 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:05.040 to contribute significantly predates my tenure. But but we in 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:08.040 in sort of the January February March time friend really 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.200 re oriented about a hundred million dollars of support towards 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:15.280 COVID nineteen response, and felt from that point on that 0:01:15.360 --> 0:01:18.759 this was going to be longer and more challenging than 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.120 most people had predicted in that moment. And I think 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:25.160 we're seeing that bear out. I mean, most most global 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:29.280 pandemics of this scale do have two three four waves. 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.720 I think, in particular, it will take a little bit 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:38.600 longer than people realize to produce a truly affective vaccine 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.000 and get it distributed. The global track record of law 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.440 distribution of a new vaccine is that it takes longer 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:48.240 and requires much more effort than most people realize. So 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.160 I'm believing that one is going to be a year 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.680 continued continue to be defined by COVID nineteen, And in 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:00.600 order for societies to really function effectively, they'll really have 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.520 to understand how to combine traditional public health behaviors like 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.320 wearing a mask and social distancing with a much much, 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:14.560 much more aggressive rapid testing protocol to enable critical institutions 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:17.520 around the world, certainly in the United States, to be 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:21.760 functional through a pandemic threat. I do wonder, too, do 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.040 you look a lot at what's going on in Asia, 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.640 especially in China that they have in many ways. I 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:29.079 talked to somebody just this week, a big global real 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.040 estate person, but who is very involved in Beijing and Shanghai. 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.359 I mean they're getting back to work, that's right. I mean, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.880 I mean countries that have gotten the background transmission rate 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.480 down to a very very low rate because of intensive, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:48.480 focused lockdown efforts have been able to bounce back. And 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.320 while there are second, third, fourth waves in those places, 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.440 that's through in New Zealand and South Korea and Australia, 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:59.519 in Germany and in China, they're able to manage through 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.040 its much more carefully. I will say, as we've looked 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:06.040 around the globe, the one core characteristic of being able 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.520 to be opened through second, third, and fourth waves of 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:16.080 infections is a very effective, very rapid testing regime in 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.800 place if everyone you know, if you think about it, 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:22.640 solving a pandemic is actually really easy. You find out 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.239 who's contagious and you take them out of the chain 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:29.239 of transmission, and that requires a data driven response that 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:33.280 starts with knowing who is contagious. In COVID nineteen, about 0:03:33.320 --> 0:03:38.440 forty of the spread are people without symptoms. So countries 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:44.120 that have had broad testing strategies, very rapid fifty minute 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:48.040 turnaround times on test results, and a real capacity to 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:50.280 take people who are positive, whether or not they have 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.840 symptoms out of the chain of transmission. Are now open 0:03:53.880 --> 0:03:57.120 for business and will be open for business in countries 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.440 that have not done that will continue to struggle. Yeah, 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.120 it's amazing how kind of clear it is what the 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.320 playbook is, but yet we continue to struggle with it. Listen, 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.080 this is also important right to getting our global economy 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.840 back up and running. The theme of the Forum this 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.840 year is a resilient economy, and there's a lot that 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.559 goes into creating a resilient economy. You know, obviously getting 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.240 this health crisis under control. Um, you need to have 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:24.760 a job, You need to have the right policies in place, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.039 the support of policies. I want to get to an 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.520 announcement that the Rockefell and Foundation just made that I 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:35.400 think really gets into creating a longer term resilient economy 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.040 for so many. Tell us a little bit about this 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:40.960 one billion dollar commitment that you guys just made, and 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.919 it really is about disrupting me inequities that have been caused, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:50.000 um and really widened by the COVID nineteen pandemic. Well, 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.320 you said really effectively that that's exactly what what we're 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.200 trying to do. I mean, I think we look across 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:02.080 the course of h and right tremendously for the path 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.160 of human opportunity and human inequity going forward. You know, 0:05:06.600 --> 0:05:10.280 it's not like we haven't had big crises before, Depression, 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.600 world wars, the global financial crisis of two thousand and eight, 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.239 two thousand nine. What we've learned from all of those 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.279 is the path a society and an economy takes in 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:23.800 the recovery from that crisis defines the type of nation 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:26.960 and ultimately the type of global economy we have ten 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:30.400 fifteen years out if we recover the way we're currently 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:35.040 poised to recover, which i'd say is slow, is focused 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.760 on those with capital and not on those that depend 0:05:37.800 --> 0:05:42.120 on their labor to earn income, is deepening the inequities 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.880 that have already been illustrated by COVID nineteen. Than ten 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.159 fifteen years from now, we're likely to have a world 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.920 that's more vulnerable to climate change and that is much 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.440 much more unequal, and I can get into that. So 0:05:56.560 --> 0:05:58.800 in the context of that, we we believe we have 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:02.880 the ability to bring people together and reimagine new solutions 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.880 to human inequity and economic development and green growth. And 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:09.680 we're committing a billion dollars towards that objective over the 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.720 next few years. What's fascinating about it? And I think 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:14.560 I bet somebody's hearing that, They're like, what is it? 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.440 Is it committed to healthcare? Is it education? It's about electricity, 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:22.560 It's about power, right, yeah, and its core it is 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:26.720 actually about accelerating the COVID nineteen response in an equitable 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:31.400 manner and then ultimately ending what we call energy poverty. 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.000 The reason the acceleration of the COVID nineteen response in 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.919 an equitable manner matters so much is because community. The 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.640 communities have been hardest hit are lower income minority communities. 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:45.479 Their twenty three million jobless claims filed last week in 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.240 the United States of America. America's six seven hundred billionaires 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:52.640 have made about six or seven hundred billion dollars since 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.680 COVID nineteen hit, probably having the best year ever in 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.600 terms of income and wealth growth for the very very top. 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.200 And you know, that's the path we're on because society 0:07:03.279 --> 0:07:06.240 knows how to bail out capital markets and Frankly, we 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.800 don't do such a good job of bailing out working 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.080 families and those who depend on their labor. And we're 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:16.880 not against strong FED action, in fact for supportive of 0:07:17.000 --> 0:07:20.800 strong economic interventions that support the capital markets. We just 0:07:20.800 --> 0:07:22.600 want to see it being more equitable and we want 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.000 to see more people who have the ability to get 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.760 green jobs, have the ability to build a new infrastructure 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:30.520 for a modern green economy be a part of the solution. 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:33.080 Talk to us about the solution. So you know, I 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:36.280 think you know power electricity. It's something you know, Raje, 0:07:36.320 --> 0:07:39.440 that we all take for granted, certainly developed societies, and 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:41.080 I don't think we think about I mean, I was 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.520 blown away by one of the numbers that your team 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.320 shared with me about the amount of people UM sustainable 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:49.400 sources uh that you guys want to bring to one 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.720 eight hundred million people in the world who now live 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:56.320 without eight hundred million people that's a huge part of 0:07:56.320 --> 0:08:00.160 our global society, UM that are really left out. Tell 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:03.840 us how you how you think you can do this? Well, 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.240 I'm glad you highlight the number I mean people. Yeah, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.600 I've been working on global poverty issues and different capacities 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:12.160 for for two and a half decades, and the reality 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.000 is people always say, well, there's no single silver bullet 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:20.240 to ending poverty and creating opportunity, and that's absolutely accurate. 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:23.880 At the same time, we know that the modern economy 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.840 is increasingly digital and hyper connected, and you cannot connect 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.160 to that economy without electricity. So it should be shocking 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.319 to people to know that eight hundred and fifty million 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.240 people around the world live without access to a hundred 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.880 and fifty kilowatt hours of power a year. That means 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.000 they don't have a light bulb on in their home 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.959 for the course of the year. It should be shocking 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.680 that probably another billion and a half people live in 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.240 economies with the number one constraint to job growth and 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:58.079 too small business starts is in fact, access to reliable 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:02.160 power that can support busyness. Is you know, unreliable power 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.760 that goes out every couple of hours. You can't start 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.480 a business, you can't hire people, you can't invest in capital. 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.640 And I've seen these communities. I've rock Fellow has been 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.920 investing in them for more than a decade. We now 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:14.800 have a set of solutions to this problem that are 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:19.880 based on green technology, artificial intelligence, smart metering, new ways 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.080 of bringing capital markets to the world's very poorest people. 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.920 And there's no reason why ten years from now we 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:29.760 could not have eliminated energy poverty and brought one to 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:33.319 two billion people into the modern global economy in a positive, 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:35.679 hopeful way. That's what we're trying to do with as 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.480 part of the recovery from COVID nineteen rash. How do 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:41.840 you do it? Because, um, just this whole idea of 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:45.920 kind of developing, you know, and bringing electricity to so many, 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.520 so many people a billion dollars, it's a large commitment 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.640 what needs to happen, and I'm assuming you've got to 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.560 bring in other partners to make it happen. Well, you're 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.079 absolutely right. It's it's first, it's inspired by the reality 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.839 of science, techn oology, and innovation. We have always been 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.480 an institution that believed if you worked extra hard to 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.960 bring the scientific and technological frontier to the world's most 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.920 vulnerable people, you can shape the nature of human opportunity. 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.360 We did that fifty sixty years ago and creating something 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:20.320 called a green revolution, where we helped triple quadruple crop 0:10:20.400 --> 0:10:24.240 yields in some of the hungriest parts of the world. Today, 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:28.840 a new green revolution would actually be recognizing that the 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.520 billion people who live without meaningful access to power could 0:10:32.520 --> 0:10:38.199 simply benefit from new solar battery, mini grid AI technologies 0:10:38.559 --> 0:10:40.800 that would allow them to connect and connect quickly. We've 0:10:40.840 --> 0:10:45.360 already served about four hundred thousand people in Northeast India 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.560 who are characterized by extreme poverty and with whom we've 0:10:50.559 --> 0:10:54.600 pioneered new solutions that can provide solar energy at you know, 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:58.800 somewhere around twenty cents of killow one hour. But you 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:01.839 didn't work, right steen this work already? Oh yeah, we've 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:04.920 rolled out hundreds. We actually have a billion dollar joint 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.720 ventor with tatap Power in media allout ten thousands of these. 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.960 Not only do they work technologically, they work from a 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:17.000 commercial perspective. The businesses, the business we started with Tata 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.920 Power should and will both sustain itself and frankly be 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:24.880 profitable over time. And uh, and most important to me 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:27.679 is they work from a poverty of reduction perspective. We 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.680 study carefully the results of what we invest in, and 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:34.320 we know that family served by our solar mini grids 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:38.160 in rural parts of India have doubled their incomes, have 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.000 increased their employment of others have been able to take 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.480 farm output and sell it at better prices because the 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.880 value addition they're able to do on farm is higher, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.600 and are moving the communities out of poverty. I've seen 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:54.320 it firsthand. We can it's life changing, right, I mean, 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.440 this is you know, this whole idea of like disrupting. 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.040 We talked about disruption all the time, right, and disruptors. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.679 This is really about disrupting the inequities. This is how 0:12:02.720 --> 0:12:05.880 you do it. Yeah, I think people get stuck. They 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:07.840 get stucked on the idea that it has to be 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:12.000 a sort of you know, either or that the eye 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.240 is only so big and if and you've got to 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:16.840 take it from someone to to give it to people 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:19.840 who are at the bottom. And that's not what we've observed. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:22.599 I mean, we've observed that there are ways to bring technology, 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.600 science and commercial markets to the world's bottom two billion 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:30.480 people in a way that fundamentally disrupts the reality of 0:12:30.559 --> 0:12:33.600 human inequity. And the reason now is the time to 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:36.800 do it is because this is the big disruption, This 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.560 is the big dislocation, This is the big crisis, and 0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:43.640 crisis has always presented opportunity in the in the spirit 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:48.120 of recovery. America had its strongest and most broadly shared 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:51.880 economic period after World War Two, and we could get 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:55.479 into why. But if we're going to bring that mindset 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.120 to the global economy in this moment, we have to 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.920 think differently and we have to be more ambitious on 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.040 behalf of those who are suffering. Now, that idea of disruption. 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:05.920 I can't tell you how many times it has come 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.480 up here at Bloomberg and my conversations on air over 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:11.880 the last six seven months. That, yes, terrible crisis and 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:14.880 we wish it hadn't happened, and certainly the impact them 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.800 so many, But it's it's causing people to increase their 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:21.280 timetable um to make changes and to figure out ways 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:23.240 to do things better. And that sounds like this is 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:26.959 an opportunity. What's the cost though, of doing something like 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:30.880 this and bringing you know, eight million people who are 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:35.040 really kind of left out in this world right now? Um, 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:38.600 what's it cost to kind of try and bring them in? Yes, so, 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:42.520 our estimates of the cost to specifically end energy poverty 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.360 the way we're defining it is roughly twenty to thirty 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.120 billion dollars a year over the course of a decade. 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.480 That may sound like a lot, although when you actually 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:54.840 look at how much we are spending dealing with the 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.960 consequences of inequity in the current crisis, it's really a 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.760 very very small and very efficient commitment. Of that thirty billion, 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:08.000 on a manual basis, about half would be commercial investment 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:12.840 or impact investment, and about half would be true public 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:17.280 subsidy or public investment that goes alongside a number of 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.720 other activities. The if you ask that same question ten 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:24.320 years ago or maybe fifteen years ago, I'd say ten 0:14:24.360 --> 0:14:27.400 maybe five years ago, I'd say the answer that question 0:14:27.400 --> 0:14:31.000 would have been hundreds of billions of dollars per year, 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.320 and the pathway to success would have been would have 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:39.560 fundamentally required, like governments everywhere, to start behaving better. Today, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:42.960 it's different. Today, you don't need that much capital, and 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:46.240 because of the pace of technology, and because we've proven 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:49.920 that these business models can work on a commercial basis, 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.440 you really don't need although it be nice, but you 0:14:53.560 --> 0:14:59.480 really don't need every energy utility around the world to 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:04.360 start dramatically turning around its core performance. We work with utilities, 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.080 we respect the mandates they have, but this is a 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.080 vision that is more disruptive than depending on just fixing 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:13.000 the things that look broken into people. You know, it's interesting. 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:15.880 I'm listening to you talking. You talk about the cost 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.720 and I we Um had a story this week based 0:15:19.720 --> 0:15:22.320 on an economist different city group who tallied up and 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:23.960 this is on a little bit of a different topic, 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:27.040 but bias and the cost it is to our economy 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:30.280 and and she tallied up it's like sixteen trillion dollars. 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.120 And I think about, all right, so we have this 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.120 twenty billion dollar a year cost, but you think about 0:15:35.480 --> 0:15:37.520 if you can give these people power and they can 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.480 be part of our system, right contributors, they can become consumers. 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.960 I mean, the economic impact is just kind of off 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.240 the charts. Well it's economic. It's also in the spirit 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:50.680 of the work we do with really the world's most 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.800 vulnerable people. It's all doing the right thing. It's a 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:59.200 core concept around justice and moral um, you know, and morality. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:01.920 I mean, I've and it was just in November and 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.400 seeing some of the beneficiaries of our mini grid work 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:07.920 in northern India, and you know, you meet, you meet. 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:10.400 I met a young girl who you know, it doesn't 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.280 get to go to school, doesn't have to read at 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.560 night because there's no lighting. You know, what walks outdoors 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.320 to fetch water and you know, in the middle of 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.520 the night, and you know that that leads to gender violence, 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:25.720 sexual violence, a lack of education, and really no genuine 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:29.480 sense of hopefulness for her future. And then we talked 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.440 to her mother after the lights went on, you know, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.800 and after they became customers paying customers of a of 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.720 a new technologically advanced solar mini grid that was managed 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.120 by remote artificial intelligence, and all of a sudden, the 0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:46.560 whole sense of human aspiration changes. You know, everyone has 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:50.040 a mobile phone, everybody sees what success can look like. 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.400 And then you feel that hopefulness of my daughter has 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:57.680 a chance, and it changes the nature of human security, 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.160 It changes the nature of human vulnerability. And uh. And 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.160 it really is a strategy to lift up the whole 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:10.600 concept of a green and global and inclusive recovery into 0:17:10.640 --> 0:17:13.240 a sort of something that means more about justice than 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:17.000 just economics. No, and I totally agree. I do wander 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:21.960 rage what's different this time around, because you know, the injustices, 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.800 the inequality of the inequities um that have been laid 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:28.920 there again because of COVID nineteen globally, They're not new. 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.240 They have been around for years. You talked about how 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.560 much you know, your life's work has been on global poverty. 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.240 The Rock and Filmer Foundation has been focused on it 0:17:37.560 --> 0:17:40.119 for a long time. What's different this time around that 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:42.320 you think, as you said, we kind of have this 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.520 unique opportunity for disruption. What what makes you think it's 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:50.440 different this time around? Well, things are different. The first 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:55.440 is the moment we're in is extremely higher. So, for example, 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.280 the World Bank estimates that four and twenty five million 0:17:59.320 --> 0:18:02.360 people around the world will be pushed back under an 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.520 expanded definition of the poverty line. That didn't happen even 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.679 during the global financial crisis, That didn't happen during the 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.000 period of the Cold War. I mean that that sort 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:18.439 of reversal of human progress is is extremely unique to 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:22.600 this particular crisis at that scale. And for us to 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:24.320 just sort of throw our hands up and say, Okay, 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:26.879 we're gonna lose two and a half decades of human 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:30.480 progress in making the world more just, in creating more 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.119 opportunity for families, that would be a huge mistake. So 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:37.080 I think the first big difference is just how significant 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:39.920 the moment we find ourselves in the second one is 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:43.439 the race to save the climate, right. And and if 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:45.520 you just sort of say that while the bottom two 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:49.320 billion people don't seem to use a lot of intensive 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.680 materials and therefore don't produce that much carbon, you're sort 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.280 of missing the picture. Fifteen years from now, these folks 0:18:56.320 --> 0:19:00.160 will either develop their economies based on you know, Chinese 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.359 investment in coal production, which is happening, you know, to 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.720 the tune of a hundred and fifty giga watts around 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:10.720 the developing world, or it will be fundamentally a green 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.600 and modern economy that's much, much less problematic for the 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:19.720 global climate situation. And these two things go hand in hand. 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.760 And you know, if you're poor, if you're suffering, and 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.240 if your choice is one or the other, you're gonna 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:28.480 take whatever makes sense in the moment. And if we 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:32.320 don't make a more modern, more hopeful, more green solution, 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:38.240 a strong equivalent option to what others are offering, we 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.800 were not going to be successful at protecting our climate, 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:44.400 which does present existential threats to all of us. So 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.719 I think about all of the people who are listening 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.600 to this um and thinking about their role in all 0:19:49.640 --> 0:19:51.520 of this, whether they run a company, whether they run 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:54.919 an institution, whether they're just one of the many you know, 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.600 billions uh in our society. I mean, what would you 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.840 say to them in terms of thinking about what you 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.040 are setting out to do in the Rocketeller Foundation is 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:04.920 setting to do? What is kind of all of our 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.400 roles in this Yeah, I would say everyone has a role. 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:12.480 So so you know, media, your your sector has a 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:15.760 role in bringing people to a broader vision of both 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.040 what's necessary and what's possible in doing it quickly. In 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:23.840 my humble opinion, I think I think that the industrial 0:20:23.880 --> 0:20:28.480 and business sector has a tremendous role to play, especially 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:30.960 for this particular example of the sort of energy and 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.520 infrastructure community, because if you run a large energy company, 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:39.359 you should you should have some awareness of this frontier, 0:20:39.440 --> 0:20:42.440 and you should be able to dedicate resources to where 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.840 your business touches on this frontier. I'd say, if you're 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:49.600 a young entrepreneur somewhere in the world, I don't know 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.720 what market you might be interested in, but the idea 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.440 that you can be part of a of a truly 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.080 green revolution for the world's poorest people that will help 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.800 them move up the economic ladder and do so in 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:07.159 a green manner is so rife with real opportunity, so 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.360 rich with opportunity. I mean, I met entrepreneurs that were 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:14.119 developing the AI platforms to remotely manage these mini goods. 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.440 I met entrepreneurs we're designing new battery temistries that were 0:21:17.520 --> 0:21:20.719 low cost and durable and work better in tropical fundments. 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.160 I could go on and on. I mean, people developing 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:27.120 auto rickshaws that are electric based that would serve as 0:21:27.119 --> 0:21:30.640 sources of demand for this vision of the future. I mean, 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:32.720 this is this is what you should My my nine 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.520 year old and my eleven year old daughter yesterday told me. 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:37.360 I said, what do you want to do with your life? 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:38.879 To them, I don't know if I can, but I 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.720 want to solve climate change. And I was like wow, 0:21:42.160 --> 0:21:43.880 And then I said you can. You could be part 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:46.360 of it. So I would say everyone can be part 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.760 of a Governments have a huge role to play, frankly, 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.040 both in getting out of the way and creating an 0:21:52.160 --> 0:21:56.920 environment that enables commercial enterprise to be successful here and 0:21:57.000 --> 0:22:01.720 in really committing itself to addressing inequity in the context 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.119 of the COVID recovery and in a measurable and effective manner. 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:08.359 And that's true, not just in India or Africa, but 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.200 in the United States and everyone. I'm glad you mentioned 0:22:11.240 --> 0:22:13.320 government's role because I do wonder. I mean, we talk 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:15.679 a lot about public private partnerships, but you really do 0:22:15.760 --> 0:22:17.359 need that to get this done right, and you do 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:21.520 need some kind of cooperation here on a grand scale. Yeah, 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:23.680 and you need government to set the right tone. So 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:27.080 I think there's like, for example, if in the United States, 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.200 if if our nation embarks on a multi trillion dollar 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:35.639 green infrastructure investment program to create jobs and support job 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.320 creation through the COVID recovery, that sets a tone, and 0:22:39.400 --> 0:22:42.800 that tone, in my view, should be extended globally and 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:47.320 and should be about using the COVID nineteen crisis to 0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:51.240 build a global economy that is safe from a climate 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.920 perspective and inclusive from a development perspective. And it's achievable. 0:22:56.000 --> 0:22:59.040 And what what's so extraordinary is in normal times you 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:02.520