WEBVTT - Natural Wine: Part 2 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.039 Natural wine is a term that doesn't have a rigid 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:15.319 or standard definition. As we learned from our friends in 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:17.960 Port one of the series, natural wine, in its essence 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.360 is really just about a non intervening style of winemaking 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.680 that adds nothing to the fermenting grapes or in the 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:28.560 vineyard from which they originate. From this definition, the question 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:31.400 many of you have been wondering is what is added 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.960 to wine? Isn't it just grapes? Well, let's address that 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:46.800 and dive back in to natural wines Part two. As 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.240 Somalias and wine nerds and so on kind of began 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:51.360 to realize that, like, you know, we should ask questions 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:54.360 about how things are made. I think the general public 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:57.480 has become aware of it at a similar pace, maybe 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.440 like five years behind me. You know. The momentum in 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.920 terms of the way that like guests and consumers ask 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.480 about these things and talk about these things has become 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.919 really powerful, I would say, in the last five years. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.240 That's Amanda Smelts. She's the wine director at Estella and 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.240 Cafe Ultra Parody so in New York. She's also a 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:31.319 leading protagonist in the natural wine movement. Alright, cool, um, 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:33.920 so why don't we just start off we have some 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:39.200 working understanding of natural wine. But since there is no 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:43.080 formal definition, maybe we could just get a definition from 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.400 Amanda Smelts about what you think natural wine is. I mean, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.880 there's no obviously there's no formal board because you know, 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:54.360 it's a term that doesn't belong in the Ousford English Dictionary. 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:58.560 But there's there's a fairly agreed upon working definition among 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:00.760 those who work with not or wine, or who make 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:02.960 it or who are around it a lot. And the 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.280 idea is generally speaking, in the vineyards and in the sellers, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:12.840 nothing added, nothing taken away. So when it comes to farming, 0:02:13.040 --> 0:02:15.320 that means you don't use that. This is probably the 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:18.359 most important part. You're not using chemicals in your vineyards 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.880 when you're adding anything to vine your you know, farming 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:24.600 at all, it's it has to be organic compounds, ifting 0:02:24.600 --> 0:02:30.200 at all. And then when it comes to your seller work, 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.360 I actually fermenting and making the wines, you're not adding 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:38.560 any chemicals. They're either or any other host of synthetic additives, colorance, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:41.240 all kinds of different stuff that is that are currently 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:44.919 legal to be added to wine in the aim of 0:02:45.320 --> 0:02:55.960 making kind of the most transparent wines possible, And at 0:02:55.960 --> 0:03:00.000 what point in your career did you notice that natural 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:03.600 a wine was something that might have been something that 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:07.040 was more for people who were in the industry, so 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:12.560 you're fellow wine nerds and maybe other industry people too, 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:17.160 something that as a buyer you started to notice people 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:21.760 coming into your establishments and asking you about the process. 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.720 For me, was a gradual one because there there was 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:27.639 not such a clear distinction and not such a clear 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.520 conversation at least here in the States about wines that 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:35.320 were maybe made in a different way. The means of 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:38.480 production were certainly not the thing that you started talking 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.520 about first. When you're tasting, you know, wines with a 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.200 vendor or when you're listening to an importer talk. Mostly 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:47.840 people are trying to you know, sell their wines and 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.880 their products that they import, without kind of any conversation 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.520 about how things are made. But that has changed a lot, 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.000 I think, as the conversation about how things are made 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:59.240 in terms of food and beverage around the world has 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:11.840 changed definitely, and that sort of checks out with what 0:04:11.880 --> 0:04:14.160 we've been hearing from other folks that we've talked to 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.839 as well, and of course in my own observations. What 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.440 it seems like you're kind of making the link here 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:28.040 between a group of let's say, influential UM wine buyers 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:36.120 and UM wine makers that really spawn from an environmental concern. 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.719 Do you think that that's a fair kind of place 0:04:39.760 --> 0:04:43.440 of origin for the natural wine movement, is that it's 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.440 in relationship to an environmental practice. I think that there 0:04:47.480 --> 0:04:52.520 are two or three fundamental like like origin concerns or 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.880 kind of themes that are behind it, But environmental concerns 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:58.919 are is definitely ground zero. The only other one that 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.880 I would say is actual quality of wine, Like people 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:05.760 talking about like what does wine tastes? Like what are 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.560 global tastes? Like what does it mean for there to 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.000 be a global taste in wine? Because that was a 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:15.080 really big issue. It continues to be a huge issue. 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.120 Most people don't think it's a problem, but ultimately a 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.719 few people here and there started to pipe up and say, hey, 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.839 why is it that all of a sudden, red wines 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:31.320 taste very much the same everywhere from Rioja to Bordeaux 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:35.719 to Napa Valley to Burgenland, Like why is it that 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:37.880 I can crack open for red wines from all of 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.400 those places and everything has the same style and the 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.480 same seller work, you know, the same type of production. 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.919 Once people start to notice that, like it's almost like, 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:53.799 you know, it's almost like you've had the wool poled 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:55.719 over your eyes a little bit. You're like, wait a minute, 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.359 I've just opened forty Napa cabernets and I can barely 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:01.600 tell the different between all of them. You know, to 0:06:01.720 --> 0:06:03.640 the untrained eye, they all kind of taste the same. 0:06:03.960 --> 0:06:06.760 Or you could insert category here, you know, salving oblanc 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.320 from wherever? What's going on here? And I think that's 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.279 the second question of origin, is why does all this 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:26.359 stuff taste the same. So it's it's a question of 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.599 both quality of wine and character of wine itself in 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.880 terms of like consumption, and then obviously environmental concerns, which 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:36.040 is where does this stuff come from and how did 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.200 they get here totally, which again just completely checks out 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:42.400 with the previous conversation that we had with the winemakers 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:46.320 from the other right, who both mentioned, you know, environmental 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:51.040 concerns as well as a pursuit of their own artistry, 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.039 kinds of wines that they wanted to make as part 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.839 of their own expression as artists, which I found to 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.600 be compelling as well. So I guess in terms of 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:05.919 the discourse that is happening in a more insular community, 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:11.240 let's say the wine community, and specifically the US wine community. 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.280 You know, we seem to see headlines with greater frequency 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.560 now about natural wine, and then these articles always kind 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.000 of pop off in a way that feel oddly emotional 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:26.800 people who are removed from these communities, so for for 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:30.480 people who are are far away from the wine industry, 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:34.720 and we see these really spirited exchanges like what are 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.040 we supposed to make of that? And why is it 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:41.160 that people feel so strongly about? Okay, this is such 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.120 a great question. So I'm gonna liken it to a 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.640 thing first and then I'll explain in more practical I 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:49.800 think terms. But the first thing I will liken it 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.880 too is, you know, when everybody listened to opera in 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.600 Vienna at the height of the Austro Hungarian Empire, and 0:07:57.840 --> 0:08:06.000 opera was the form, right, and somebody introduced the first 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:12.280 opera in German, you know, like when German operas began 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.960 to be the thing as opposed to say Italian opera 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:20.320 or and so on and so forth. I think whenever 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:26.119 there's a major shift in a like deeply well known 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.880 and well regarded esthetic media. Entire cultures are kind of 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:34.679 rocked by it, you know, especially if the art form 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.439 or the craft work or whatever it is. The cultural 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:41.280 nexus is super important to people if it if it's 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:46.280 closely associated, like in the case of opera, with national 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:49.960 identity or cultural identity, if it's something that brings people 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:52.480 a lot of meaning and a lot of joy and 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.720 a feeling of importance in their lives. Um when there 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.480 are major paradigm shifts in those things, I think it 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.960 takes on the hue of the personal because it's stuff 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:23.160 that's deeply beloved by people. So if you follow wet 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:26.280 Stone media closely, you'll know that there's nothing that I 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.720 know more about or care more about than wine. In fact, 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.760 I loved it so much that for an entire decade 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.200 it was my job just to drink wine. Like Amanda, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.520 I was a sammie, which is how the French say 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:46.440 trained wine professional. But over time, as I began to 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:49.520 rise up through the ranks in my career, I couldn't 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.200 move beyond the overwhelming lack of diversity in the wine industry. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:57.240 The further along I moved, the bottles and the wine 0:09:57.240 --> 0:10:00.920 producing regions I was exposed to were fast and ever changing, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.440 but the people for whom I was opening those bottles 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.480 were decidedly less so. So I decided to do something 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.560 radical in my mid twenties. I decided that I wanted 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.200 to connect with the black and indigenous communities in the 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:19.720 western Cape of South Africa, who were the overwhelming majority 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:23.280 of the labor force but represented less than even a 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:27.520 single percent of its ownership. I began to think of 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:32.080 wine as a catalyst for social change, for historical and 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:38.600 anthropological learning, for identity and origins. And in this work 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:44.360 there was an epiphany. It was that wine did not 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:48.640 belong exclusively to the French or the Italians, no matter 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:53.800 how hard my formal education tried to convince me. Through 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.560 working with the families in South Africa's wine industry, I 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:04.120 began a process that I would call decolonizing wine, a 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.240 process that culminated in two thousand seventeen, where I traveled 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:12.120 to the Republic of Georgia, often called the Cradle of Wine, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.640 to visit the oldest grape vine in the world that 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.560 is still being used to produce wine. We're in the 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.760 village of Church Cardi and We're gonna go see a 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:35.560 very very old vine. Do you see this is not 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:39.720 a tree? So earlier today we saw one year old vines, 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:45.079 which we're about that big, and four year old vines 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:50.040 the oldest probably in the world. Huh yeah, it's the 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:54.120 oldest in the world. Which is to gives us a grape, 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.640 and it is to ali, it is for Senator yourself. 0:11:58.000 --> 0:11:59.920 This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen in 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:17.760 my life. This is unbelievable. And I think wine is 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:23.000 in this special there's really special nexus between like you 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:28.520 were just saying, agricultural product and environmental reality and a 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:33.840 made thing, right, human artifact, cultural artifact, and an aesthetic object. 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.440 It's it's not only one of those things, it's it's 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.880 caught in the crosshairs of both. And so that means 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:50.040 people who care about things as diverse as climate change, farming, music, art, cooking, 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:54.800 kilinary history, you know, I don't know, collecting things. There's 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:58.080 like so many different angles through which people might care 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:03.400 about wine because of that interesting overlay of you know, 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:08.199 environment and means of production and farming and then aesthetic 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.199 things that I think this is a truly major paradigm 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.400 shift in the global culture of wine, and it is 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:20.720 having the same sort of impact as something, you know, 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:25.160 as profound as translating an ancient text from Latin into 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.000 Old English. You know, it's a stupid thing to compare 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.240 it to because obviously wine isn't important as those ancient 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:38.880 ancient texts. But but or say, as opera was to 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.760 the Viennese. You know, I think that that's what's happening, 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:45.560 and and that's that's why people are responding to it 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:49.000 with this kind of vehemence. Because while wine is not 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:53.120 art exactly, it does carry some of the hallmarks of art, 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.320 and it definitely is craftsmanship, and it's definitely labor and 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:01.640 it's definitely farming. So there's lots of entry points through 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:05.280 which you could really come to care for this strange 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:09.439 living artifact, and lots of entry points in which it 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.520 could come to represent your culture, or your history or 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.160 even just your your sense of art, which means that 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:19.680 it is weirdly very democratic. It means that lots and 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.280 lots of different of different people can care about wine 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:26.080 from all many, many different walks of life as long 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:28.760 as you have access to it. I think that's why 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:33.400 people are heated because because it's it actually does have 0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:35.880 the power to move. It has the capacity to speak 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:39.520 to many, many different people from lots of different angles. 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.960 And because it speaks to so many, when there are 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:47.840 big challenges or big changes kind of presented to the 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.680 commonly accepted way of doing things worldwide, we feel the 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:56.239 heat a little bit. Wow, congratulations to you. That's officially 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:03.160 the best description I've heard of this internal ire around 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.000 natural wine conversations. You know, You've given me a lot 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.680 to think about, because now I'm thinking about wine in 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:12.360 a democratic sense, which of course makes me think about 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.680 our own political system here and the challenges that Democratic 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.640 Party has as a party of big tens and a 0:15:20.680 --> 0:15:25.440 wide variety of ideas. On the one hand, it's very 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:29.800 easy for people to find themselves in these broad politics, 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.520 but on the other hand, when it comes to say, 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:40.040 electing a candidate suitable to around, you know, much more 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:44.160 difficult because the reasons that we've shown up to support, 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:48.160 or the areas in which we see ourselves reflected, of course, 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.600 are are varied, and that makes it hard. Yeah, that 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.560 makes it really challenging. So um, I think it's exactly 0:15:55.600 --> 0:16:00.120 the right analogy and helps me understand is there a 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:05.160 social capital or is there kind of an idealism in 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:09.920 people coming to this wine tint who never found a 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.760 relationship to wine before. Is there some cash and people 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.920 saying like, I'm into natural wine and therefore like I'm 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:21.800 part of this movement now? Well I wish, I wish 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:25.600 that my answer were no, But my answer is yeah, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:28.960 for sure, it's hip. It's become hip. But I think 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.560 we should push at and poke at why it's become hip. Right, 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.040 it's because of what you say. You say, Okay, at 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:37.640 least on the surface, natural wine seems to present this 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.120 thing that is more democratic, it's not just superficial. It 0:16:41.160 --> 0:16:44.480 arises up out of you know a handful of people France, 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.240 you know, California, you know, lots of Australia, like lots 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:52.560 of different places, being like I don't want my wines 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:57.000 to taste like everybody else's wines anymore. Like there's something 0:16:57.040 --> 0:17:00.800 really unnerving there, and and you don't know any better. 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:03.520 You just keep drinking them like whatever, it's no big deal. 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.760 But the moment that someone presents one of these wines 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.480 to you and you go, holy crap, that tastes so 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.120 different from anything else I've ever seen what's going on here? 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.119 Is it wrong? Is this? Like? You know? And I 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.959 watched that happen literally every day at my job, Like 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:18.679 all the time. People are like, Oh, I don't know. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:20.840 This wine is so different? Is it? Is it bad? 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:23.680 I think it's bad? You know. So when you when 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:27.080 you have that much of like a jarring kind of 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.159 encounter with something that you can smell and you can 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:32.000 taste and you can feel in your body, Okay, so 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.600 now you're like, whoa, I'm awake? What was going on before? 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.119 And the answers that are behind what was going on 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:41.840 before are not cute, They're disconcerned. They're disconcerting. And when 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.440 you start to get a little bit of an understanding 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.440 on what has happened, i e. Like the mass industrialization 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:53.159 of wine across the globe, that you start to think like, 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:55.760 I don't know, I don't really I don't love that. 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:17.639 H of course not the same as the conventional wines, 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:21.640 which were made to taste like the other. Perhaps they 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:25.080 were made to taste like wines that had performed well 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:29.800 in the meat. If we don't know anything about natural wine, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.840 and we've only been drinking nine dollar mile back from 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:39.320 anywhere from Australia or to Argentina. What is the experience 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:43.639 that we can expect as a consumer as a drinker 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.840 when we are drinking natural wines versus wines that don't 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.960 share that label. Well, it depends a little bit again 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.720 on the means of production, because under the wide umbrella 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.560 of natural wine, they really can taste quite quite different. 0:18:56.640 --> 0:19:00.840 And I think to me, fundamental thing you should expect 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:05.359 first is that everything you've ever tasted in wine before 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:09.600 that is going to change. So like the first thing 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.760 you can expect is difference, and I think that is 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:17.199 that's crucial, right because it means that you are reintroduced 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.040 to your own senses and you hear them say this 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:24.680 is different from my previous sense memories. Now that can 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:28.800 those wines can be maybe not so perceptibly different from 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:32.400 a conventional wine because maybe they were, you know, put 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:34.879 in used oak barrels, and maybe there's a little bit 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:38.040 of a sulfur dioxide application, and maybe there's a slightly 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:41.040 more ripe fruited style and they're a little bit more polished, 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.120 and so maybe to the uninitiated they won't be that 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.119 clear right away, but there are some where, maybe because 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.840 of the means of production again, what happens in the 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.000 cellar and the lack of preservatives added. Sometimes these things 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.880 can smell and taste really wild. And so the way 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.160 that I translate wild is you know, often people will 0:20:01.160 --> 0:20:03.840 smell them and be like, whoa kind of sour. People 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.440 will struggle for words to describe it. Other times it's 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.560 like wow, really heavy, like, because the aromas can be 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:15.080 explosive like that, Like the actual bouquet of wine can 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.840 become the type of thing that I will often say 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.640 like jumps out of the glass and you barely need 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:22.720 to put your nose near the glass to smell it 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:26.679 and sense it because it's aromatically so supercharged. So the 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.240 range of experiences can be kind of different, but I 0:20:30.280 --> 0:20:34.240 mean actually quite broad. But as a first principle, everyone 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:37.399 should be prepared to smell and taste something that is 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:53.560 unlike anything they understand as wine before. Right. That makes 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:58.960 sense because in people reflecting back to you, these potentially 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:05.479 unusual smells which are reflective of nature, you know, something sour, 0:21:05.880 --> 0:21:11.359 something yeasty, something funky, something dank. These are all characteristics 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:15.280 presumably that the winemakers themselves are trying to bring forth 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:20.400 and and present right, So um, in the transparency that 0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.800 you're alluding to, part of what the offering is in 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:27.639 the transparency is the expression of the wine without the 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:31.720 manipulation of you know, some of these other chemical inputs 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.959 or even winemaking inputs, so that people can you know, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:41.480 experience the full breadth of whatever the land has to say. 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:44.680 You know, one of the things that you have you 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:48.640 have to know about kind of conventional winemaking or more 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.920 industrial winemaking is that I alluded to it earlier. But many, many, many, 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.679 many forms of additives are legal, both in the United 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.320 States and in the EU and kind of all over 0:21:59.520 --> 0:22:02.880 the world, depending on you know, country to country. And 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:07.160 some of those additives essentially have an origin that are 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:11.800 from either animal material or protein material, like you know, 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:14.639 eggs and egg derivatives are really common. They're used as 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.240 clarifying agents, you know, just the same way that like, 0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.680 if you're not specific in a restaurant, you may be 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:23.200 surprised to find that there is, say, for example, gelatine 0:22:23.280 --> 0:22:25.800 used as a stabilizer or as a textural thing, and 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:29.679 the gelatine is you know, animal derived as opposed to 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.360 or or when you're thinking about cheese and say you're 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.000 a vegetarian and you're you know, you find out that like, okay, 0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:39.480 animal renn it. You know, it's the same thing with winemaking. 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:41.879 And again like this is about signing a light on 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:44.119 the way things are made. I mean, I know I 0:22:44.160 --> 0:22:45.560 see a lot of I see a lot of like 0:22:45.640 --> 0:22:48.840 media articles and so on that are click baity these 0:22:48.960 --> 0:22:51.160 days that are like, oh the death of the term 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.520 natural and can we stop using this word? And can 0:22:54.160 --> 0:22:56.840 you know, I don't know. Wittgenstein said all of our 0:22:56.840 --> 0:22:59.200 problems come down to problems of language, right, and so 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:02.240 it's just talking about whine at all is a challenge. 0:23:02.359 --> 0:23:04.000 And I can tell you that from having to do 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.880 it every day, you know, trying to find language that 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:12.600 that approximates what two different people mean when they're attempting 0:23:12.640 --> 0:23:16.359 to relate sense experience with this, you know, aesthetic and 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.600 agricultural object before them being smelled and tasted and consumed 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:25.080 by them. Adding in the subjectivity of the human experience 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:29.200 and the difficulty of you know, coming to agreed upon language. 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:31.800 We have to do the best we can right to 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:37.440 understand each other. So if we're trying to describe an 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:41.760 entire paradigm shift in how people attend to their vineyards, 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.840 how they harvest their fruit, how they ferment that fruit, 0:23:46.240 --> 0:23:49.600 how they usher that fruit into a completed state, bottle 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:51.919 it and send it off to people to be consumed. 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:56.760 And it's very very different from industrial and you know, 0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:01.480 slightly more conventional methods. What then are we to say, right, 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:03.560 that just took me like fifteen words to try to 0:24:03.600 --> 0:24:06.840 describe to you all the steps in the process. We 0:24:06.920 --> 0:24:09.719 have to find some kind of signifier that enables us 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:13.000 to continue having the conversation. I think the reason that 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:15.200 people are all up in arms about it is that 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.800 there's this you know, sort of ridiculous thing where people 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:21.280 are like, well, you know what, what wine is unnatural? 0:24:21.400 --> 0:24:25.320 And it's just like, well, now we're playing semantics, right, 0:24:25.359 --> 0:24:30.080 and we're not actually pointing at the root issues, which 0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:34.479 which are farming and the finished product, and like how 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:37.760 much are we asking questions about where do things come from? 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:46.080 What is the origin of my drink? And we're obsessive 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:49.320 about definition and we're obsessive about that. To me is 0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:51.359 there is the bigger picture question and the rest of 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:55.000 it is sort of I don't know, squabbling over the crumbs, 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:59.480 you know, you know, categorizing instead of being interested in 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:05.520 disc active and qualitative understandings of things. Right, this is 0:25:05.600 --> 0:25:09.560 us getting caught up in, you know, in labeling. And 0:25:09.640 --> 0:25:13.320 I would love to recenter questions about means of production 0:25:14.240 --> 0:25:16.919 back on everybody's mind and on everybody's lips, because they 0:25:16.960 --> 0:25:21.600 are really serious questions attended about like health, beauty, and yeah, 0:25:21.760 --> 0:25:24.719 justice too, not to mention economics and power. You know. 0:25:24.800 --> 0:25:27.640 So I'm totally fine with the term if it gets 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:31.600 me talking about those things that people you know, cluche, 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:36.480 I know, I love. I'm starting to develop a newfound 0:25:37.000 --> 0:25:42.280 affinity for this phrase natural wine for all the reasons 0:25:42.320 --> 0:25:46.560 in which it has been a conundrum in trying to 0:25:46.840 --> 0:25:50.320 explain or describe. I think that's kind of the magic 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.159 of the term, especially if we were to extrapolate, you know, 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:58.639 this like democratic analogy, and I think one of the 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:05.200 stifling elements could be trying to appease so many different factions. Yes, 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.040 and I totally I think that we actually could see 0:26:08.080 --> 0:26:13.560 a lot of how that can go wrong. Organic as 0:26:13.600 --> 0:26:19.159 a label in which the certification to get the label 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:25.760 is inherently excluding people who otherwise tons of farmers, tons 0:26:25.800 --> 0:26:29.600 of farmers practices, right, so in a way, you know, 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:32.919 organic is able to be co opt and in a 0:26:32.960 --> 0:26:38.119 weird way, a less effective or less exhaustive, you know, 0:26:38.280 --> 0:26:43.960 words to describe who is actually acting in the most 0:26:44.680 --> 0:26:50.719 environmentally progressive or responsible way with natural wine, and saying 0:26:50.760 --> 0:26:54.240 that we have a roughly agreed upon term that is 0:26:54.280 --> 0:26:59.760 about nothing added and nothing taken away. You keep alluding 0:26:59.800 --> 0:27:03.720 to it as a signifier, which I think is actually 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:08.119 a lot more closely aligned with the way that human 0:27:08.160 --> 0:27:14.520 beings are able to understand social cues and able to understand, 0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:20.960 you know, big ideas that we understand perfectly well are 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:25.280 not absolute. Human beings are intellectually mature for the most 0:27:25.280 --> 0:27:28.960 part enough to understand that nothing is purely absolute, or 0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:31.879