1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to work in progress. Hello Whipsmarties. 2 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: Today we are joined by a guest that has fascinated 3 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: me for nearly twenty years and likewise the world. Today's 4 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: guest is none other than Amanda Knox. You likely know 5 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:35,960 Speaker 1: Amanda as an American author, an activist, a journalist. You 6 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: might know her as a woman who was wrongfully convicted 7 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: in college for the murder of her roommate in Italy 8 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: in a year that she was studying abroad. And after 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: that wrongful conviction in two thousand and seven, she spent 10 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: four years behind bars, eventually having her conviction overturned when 11 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: the man who murdered her roommate was sentenced. The powerful 12 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: thing about Amanda's story is not only that she became 13 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: a casualty of an unjust justice system, but that she 14 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: became fodder for a media machine that didn't care about 15 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: the truth. They cared about scandal and paper sales and 16 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: salacious stories that they knew would clickbait around the world. 17 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: And this young girl's life was turned upside down in 18 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: a way that has had lasting and permanent effects in 19 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: some circles. Through her prolonged legal process and her advocacy 20 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: for other women behind bars, Amanda began to find purpose 21 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: again and eventually that purpose led to the passion of advocacy. 22 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: She has become a best selling author. She has become 23 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: a journalist. Her first book was titled Waiting to Be Heard, 24 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: a memoir. In twenty eighteen, she chose to shed light 25 00:01:56,560 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: on stories like hers hosting The Scarlet Letter Report, a 26 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: television series that examines the incredibly toxic nature of the 27 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: way that we publicly shame women in particular. And her 28 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: second memoir, released this year, is titled Free My Search 29 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: for Meaning. It is an absolutely stunning book that affected 30 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: me so deeply, and now we are on the precipice 31 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: of her life story being turned into a show. It'll 32 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: be hitting Hulu on August twentieth, titled The Twisted Tale 33 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: of Amanda Knox, and Amanda served as executive producer alongside 34 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: another woman who knows what it's like to be turned 35 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: into media fodder, Monica Lewinsky. Amanda's going to join us 36 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: today to talk about her journey, how she's learned to heal, 37 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: what it means to stand up for others, and what 38 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: it means to reclaim her story. Let's dive in with 39 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: Amanda Knox. Amanda, I am so just thrilled, elated, excited 40 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: to have you on the show today. Thank you so 41 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: much for joining me. 42 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,399 Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you for having me. I'm excited as well. 43 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about you a lot, which probably sounds 44 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: a bit odd, but interestingly, there have been certain touch 45 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: points in my life as a woman who very quickly 46 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: was in the public I at twenty one. Who you know, 47 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: my first show started in two thousand and three. Your 48 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: life obviously exploded into public consciousness in two thousand and seven. 49 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: The Internet and the forums and the chat rooms and 50 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: things where their Facebook was their social media wasn't yet. 51 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: But we have both in our sort of peer group, 52 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: experienced cycles of becoming something for others that maybe doesn't 53 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: feel true for us totally. And what's been so interesting 54 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: to me about certain people who have tracked through hearing 55 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 1: about their experiences and going, oh, wow, someday I want 56 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: to like have a glass of wine with that person 57 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: and talk about it. You know, things you've shared more 58 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 1: recently and in your second book and the frankness with 59 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: which you've talked about your experiences have made me go like, oh, 60 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 1: definitely we need to hang at some point. 61 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 3: So let's put it on the calendar. 62 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: Oh, I was like, I got to get her on 63 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: the show, and then I also have to ask her 64 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: like out for a meal. So anyway, I just wanted 65 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: you to know the way I kind of think about 66 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: what you do in the world, with your life and 67 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: your circumstances, and I really admire you. 68 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: Oh well, thank you very much. I really appreciate that. 69 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 3: I know that I still tend to be a rather 70 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,920 Speaker 3: controversial figure in some people's minds. So I'm really I'm 71 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: really thrilled that the messages that I'm putting out there 72 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 3: and the way that I tell my story has resonated 73 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 3: with you, because that's really the goal is like, after 74 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 3: being really like ostracized and elevated onto this pedestal but 75 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 3: only to be viewed in the worst possible light, it 76 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 3: has felt very lonely, and so a part of the 77 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,040 Speaker 3: desire to tell my story is impart to reconnect with 78 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 3: humanity and to like hold on to the things that 79 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 3: are important. 80 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 2: And help them continue to live. So that's that's. 81 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I think a lot about reclamation for people, 82 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: especially people who get turned into characters in ways that 83 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: they you know, you can't put it back in the bottle. 84 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: Once it's out, whether it's true or not, you can't 85 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 1: get it back. And I over the years that you've 86 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: opened up your life, I've just been so taken aback 87 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: by things that I've learned. And it has been a 88 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: really interesting sort of experience to be both, you know, 89 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: a storyteller, which makes me really passionate about getting to 90 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: know people's real stories and to also know what it's 91 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 1: like to have been through the public machine in the 92 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: era in particular that we've been in it, so before 93 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 1: we before we get to where you are and how 94 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: this all began for you. If it's all right with you, 95 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: I'd actually like to rewind even farther. I think about 96 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: people I get to sit down and talk to, have 97 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: a story or a project or a series of those 98 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: things that people know normally from you know, your adult life. 99 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: And I love to ask people this question, and I 100 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: especially love to ask people with young kids this question, 101 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: because I feel like it adds something to it. I 102 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: always wonder if today we could, you know, jump into 103 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: back to the future, and you could go back and 104 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: interact with your young self at eight or nine, years old. 105 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: Are there things you would see in her that really 106 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: track for who you are today? Are there things you 107 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: would see maybe in her that remind you of your 108 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: own kid. I'm always I'm always curious if you if 109 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: you think like, oh, yeah, I see myself in her, 110 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: or I absolutely never well, especially maybe for you, I 111 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: would never have imagined what my life would be now. 112 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: I just wonder what connects. 113 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's see eight year old me. Let's see, 114 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 3: that would have been third grade. So, and I mean, 115 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:21,680 Speaker 3: I'm sure we don't have to be this specific, but 116 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: like in third grade, I was, you know, drawing, I 117 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: was doing a ton of drawing. I was playing. I 118 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 3: was doing gymnastics and soccer and softball. I was very athletic. 119 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 3: I was singing and dancing. I was a very silly kid. 120 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: I loved stories. So this this was back when I 121 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 3: was still in elementary school, and my mom worked at 122 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 3: my elementary school, which means that I would always get 123 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 3: to school early and stay late after all the kids 124 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 3: were gone. And so the school sort of got to 125 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 3: be my playground the entire thing, and I got to 126 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 3: just you know, make use of all the stationery, and 127 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 3: you know, so I was like while my mom was 128 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: grading paperwork, I was writing my own little stories, and 129 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: I was already a little author. 130 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 4: You know. 131 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: Like so so in many ways, I I'm very very 132 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: similar to that girl. Like that that girl has persisted 133 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 3: throughout this you know ship of theseus that has been 134 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 3: through quite the maelstrom, and I'm really grateful that that 135 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 3: is true, that I still remain a person who deep 136 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 3: down is very silly and and curious and and and compassionate. 137 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 3: I think that's something that I've always been is I've 138 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 3: always been aware of like people's energy around me, and 139 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: I've always been aware of, like who's the little outcast 140 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 3: in the room, and I'm going to hang out with them? 141 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 3: So that was something that I've always done. And I 142 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 3: think the thing that is different that is, you know, 143 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:16,680 Speaker 3: noticeably different between me then and me now is fear 144 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 3: and sadness. I mean, I mean it's just is like 145 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 3: and you know, it's it's interesting with my four year 146 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 3: old daughter, who is remarkably similar to me, Like she 147 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 3: looks exactly like I looked when I was her age, 148 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 3: and I think the only thing that is super different 149 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 3: about her and me is that she likes spooky things 150 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 3: like she's she was, she's already like in love with 151 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 3: Jack Skellington and and you know, like all of those 152 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: kind of things, and like I was, I have never 153 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 3: been a scary movie kind of person, So I feel 154 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 3: like maybe. 155 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: I might be raising a goth by accident. 156 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: I don't don't know how. I know, like how that 157 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: genetically came out of my body, but like yeah, so 158 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 3: otherwise we're just like we're both very silly. We both 159 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 3: are like really happy to get into costume and get 160 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 3: into character. So that silliness and that like being drawn 161 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: to stories. Like just now, like I mentioned, I was 162 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 3: slightly late coming to the podcast because I was assisting 163 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,600 Speaker 3: my daughter in the bathroom. But the way that I 164 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 3: assist her is every single time I go to the bathroom, 165 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 3: she wants me to tell her a story while she's 166 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 3: going to the bathroom, So I have to sit there 167 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: and tell her a story. And she's not going potty 168 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: until I'm done with the story. So it's like a 169 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 3: whole thing. And yeah, but like the one thing that 170 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 3: is different is that up until everything that happened to 171 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: me when I was twenty, I swear like nothing bad 172 00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 3: had ever happened to me like it's it's true, and 173 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:02,680 Speaker 3: I mean it's not to say that I had like 174 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 3: the perfect childhood on paper, right, like I had divorced 175 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 3: parents whatever, but I did not experience that negatively. I 176 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: got to have two Christmases and two birthdays, and my 177 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 3: parents lived within two blocks of each other, and so 178 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 3: it was very easy and very fluid for me to 179 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 3: move back and forth between those spaces. And it really 180 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: wasn't weird because my entire extended family lived within walking distance, 181 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 3: so it just felt natural to like, oh, I'm going 182 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: to go to my dad's house, I'm going to go 183 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 3: to my alma's house, I'm going to go to my house. 184 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 3: You know, Like all of these things were very fluid. 185 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 3: So I never experienced any of those what people think 186 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 3: about as like traditionally negative childhood experiences. Did not have 187 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: that for me. I never struggled in school, I never 188 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,719 Speaker 3: struggled at sports. Everything came easy to me. I made 189 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 3: friends easily, and so I really grew up in this 190 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 3: like blessed experience, this really really lucky life where I 191 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 3: felt very loved, very supported, and everything came easy to me. 192 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: And so what that did is it it put me 193 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: in a position to be very very vulnerable when something 194 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:29,680 Speaker 3: bad and not just a little bad, but very very 195 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: bad came my way because I was utterly unprepared for 196 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 3: how to deal with it, right, And then that feeling 197 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 3: of being utterly unprepared to deal with it like you 198 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 3: never you never like forget that feeling of like the 199 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: train just hitting you out of nowhere, and I think 200 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 3: for the rest of your life, you're a little twitchy 201 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 3: in a way that you never were before because you 202 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 3: got hit by a freaking train and that came out 203 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: of nowhere, and you if it happened once, it could 204 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 3: happen again. Like those those are the things that go 205 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 3: in my mind or like another big difference and this 206 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 3: this is going to sound like really freaking sad, and 207 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 3: it's something that I'm still trying to work through, is 208 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 3: because the really bad thing that happened to me was 209 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 3: not just like one bad thing. 210 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: It was like a. 211 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 3: Prolonged series of bad things that kept just building on 212 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 3: each other and really took over my life. 213 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 2: I had to sit. 214 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 3: For a very long time in suffering, like prolonged existential anguish, 215 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 3: and I weirdly became comfortable in it, like where as 216 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: before I would wake up, you know, everything is rainbows 217 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:05,359 Speaker 3: and sunshine. Like now, I was waking up and everything 218 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 3: was a cloudy day, and that became like the new 219 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 3: comfortable normal. 220 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 2: Thing for me. 221 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: Yes, And. 222 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 3: When the bad circumstances go away, the cloudy weather doesn't like, 223 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 3: you know, like trying to get back to what you 224 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 3: were before doesn't really work. And so I'm better now 225 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 3: at like pushing those clouds up so that I get 226 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 3: a little more sunshine coming my way. Yeah, but like 227 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 3: there's something weirdly comforting to me about sadness because I 228 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 3: feel almost safer when I'm sad than when i'm happy, 229 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 3: because when I'm happy, I'm afraid that something bad is 230 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 3: going to happen to me. And that's that's where like 231 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 3: I'm still working through some PTSD response, because when everything 232 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 3: is going well and when I'm happy, that's when I 233 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: start feeling scared that something bad is going to happen 234 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 3: to me. 235 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute after a few 236 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: words from our favorite sponsors. When I think about the 237 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: thing that felt like the train wreck for me in 238 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: my early twenties that was global and awful, I know 239 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: what you mean about what you get used to and 240 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: what I was thinking about when I was listening to 241 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: you speak and you were describing those PTSD symptoms before 242 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: you named the acronym, was when you experience that prolonged suffering, 243 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: you almost get used to being the frog in the 244 00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: boiling water, and then it sort of seems like if 245 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: the water's hot all the time, it won't be such 246 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: a shock the next time it boils, right, you know, 247 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: And when you start to unlearn that, when you have 248 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 1: to do the work, as you said, to push the 249 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: clouds up. You know, I had, I had a train wreck, 250 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: and then twenty years later it felt like I had 251 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: another one. And the thing that was really tough for 252 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: me about it was being in a place doing the 253 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: recovery once my PTSD was diagnosed, and feeling like i'd 254 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,199 Speaker 1: really begun to turn the water temperature down a lot, 255 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: and then it boiled, and I was like fuck, because 256 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: if maybe, if I had just maybe, if i'd just 257 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,720 Speaker 1: let it stay hot, this wouldn't feel so bad. But 258 00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: that's no way to live a life. And so I 259 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: share that with you just because I really want you 260 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 1: to know how much I mean, like, oh my god, 261 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: I feel it in my bones. I feel for you 262 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: and I know what you mean when you say you 263 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: don't really ever go back, because when you've been boiled, 264 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: you will never unknow the feeling ye exactly of the boiling. 265 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,679 Speaker 1: It just doesn't work like that. 266 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 3: No, and yeah, I do not relish the moment that 267 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: my daughter gets really hurt by something, because I mean, 268 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 3: I know that as a mom, I will be prepared. 269 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 3: I am more than prepared to help her figure that 270 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 3: out and process that. I don't love the fact that 271 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 3: as a mom that I can't just protect her from. 272 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 1: That forever right, that you can't stop it, I. 273 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 2: Can't stop it. 274 00:18:53,480 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 3: And then in the meantime, I'm just like relishing witnessing 275 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 3: my daughter experienced the world the way I know I 276 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 3: once experienced it, which was without pain, without that flinch reaction, 277 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 3: without that hyper vigilance, without that that sadness, that like 278 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 3: deep knowing sadness. 279 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so. 280 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: I guess it's just like one of those weird un 281 00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 3: you know, blessings of being a parent that I wasn't 282 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: really that's not what I signed up for. But it's 283 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: like something that has come back for me in a 284 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 3: karmic way. It's like you get to experience that again. 285 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 3: At least at least as a witness, and and I 286 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 3: really appreciate that because you know, when when you lose 287 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 3: your innocence that way, yeah, it's a real loss. 288 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: It's a it's like a death. 289 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: It is, it's and it and no one teaches you 290 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: how to mourn yourself. We we don't really have a 291 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:06,919 Speaker 1: great practice who understand the death of part of yourself 292 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: in our society, And I think it. I think it's 293 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: something that increases pain in the world. And it's why 294 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: I'm so kind of winded in a good way by 295 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: people who do what you're doing. I recently was in 296 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: some community with Monica Lewinsky and we got to talk 297 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: about a lot of this. 298 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 3: Yay. 299 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: Oh, she's a great person to talk to about it. 300 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: I mean, just incredible. And I think I am so 301 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: grateful for all of the women in the world, in 302 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 1: our effective peer group who have just chosen to rescue themselves. 303 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: I think, you know, I try to put myself in 304 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: the place that I was at twenty. I was in college, 305 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: I just finished my junior year, I was getting ready 306 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: for my senior year, and then I booked my first 307 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 1: TV show and it was like being plucked and dropped 308 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: in a completely foreign universe totally. And you were twenty 309 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: when you went to study abroad in Italy, which I'm 310 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: sure felt like this joyous experience. You were like expanding 311 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: into the world. You were going to, you know, learn 312 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: this language you knew a little of. 313 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,719 Speaker 3: Right, but not be immersed in a culture and just yeah, 314 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 3: like the idea of growing as a human being because 315 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 3: of just by virtue of being in this new environment 316 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 3: was absolutely part of the part of the excitement of it. 317 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 318 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: What were you excited about, What were you studying at 319 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: the time, Why did you pick Italy? How did it begin? Well? 320 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 3: I was always really interested in languages, in part because 321 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 3: I grew up again in this like in these divorced 322 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: households where there was a very different culture between what 323 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,159 Speaker 3: was going on at my dad's house versus what was 324 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 3: going on at my mom's house. My mom was born 325 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: in Germany, and so on my mom's side of my 326 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 3: family we are very culturally German still to this day. 327 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 3: Like we don't sing, you know, English Christmas songs, We 328 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,359 Speaker 3: sang German Christmas songs at Christmas time. So I grew 329 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: up at my mom's house eating hot Kohl and saukout 330 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: and Reladen, all of you know, Vechkin, all of that, 331 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 3: and then at my dad's house it was like hot 332 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 3: dogs and hamburger helper and he doesn't, you know, he's 333 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,359 Speaker 3: never spoken a foreign language word in his life. So 334 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 3: it's it was interesting to like see how from a 335 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 3: very young age to really like understand in my in 336 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 3: my bones that there are different ways to exist in 337 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 3: the world and none of them is better than another. 338 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: They're just different. 339 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 3: And it made me really curious about all of the 340 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 3: different ways that people are in the world. And so I, 341 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 3: you know, the first time I studied abroad was actually 342 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 3: in Japan. I was fourteen. It was during high school, 343 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 3: and I spent three weeks in Kyoto living with a 344 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 3: family there with who had a girl who was my age. 345 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: So I was like hanging out in her bedroom with her, 346 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 3: going to classes with her, you know, doing all that. 347 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 3: And it was such an incredible experience that left such 348 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 3: a positive impression upon me that I immediately knew that 349 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 3: I wanted to do that more. I wanted to study 350 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: abroad more. And the next natural opportunity was college. And 351 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: you know, when you're in college, they're like junior year 352 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,879 Speaker 3: because then you've gotten enough credits in to like be 353 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 3: kind of an adult, but you're not on your way 354 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 3: out because you're not a senior. So like junior year 355 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: is the perfect year to study abroad, and that was 356 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 3: my plan and why Italy. Well, also when I was fourteen, 357 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,239 Speaker 3: I went to Italy with my family and it was 358 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 3: when I think about like places that I want to 359 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 3: go in the world, I always there's like a criteria 360 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 3: that I think about. One is that I want there 361 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 3: to be amazing food. Two is that I want there 362 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 3: to be a culture shock three is that I want 363 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: there to be like beautiful nature, and four is I 364 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 3: want there to be beautiful history. And Italy ticked all 365 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 3: of those boxes. 366 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:46,719 Speaker 4: And as Italian, yes, I mean, come on, it's Italy, 367 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 4: are we kidding me? And so as somebody who is 368 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 4: like technically studying languages because I want to become a translator, 369 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 4: that's my excuse to my dad, Italy, like Italian is 370 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 4: not the most you know, effective language to learn. If 371 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 4: I really wanted to be becoming a professional translator and 372 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 4: get actual paid jobs, I would have been going for 373 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 4: Spanish or Chinese or something like that. 374 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 2: But no, I. 375 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 3: Really was just infatuated with Italy after having spent some 376 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,479 Speaker 3: time there with my family. I actually had studied a 377 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 3: little bit of Latin back in middle school, and so 378 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 3: like I had read about like the Forum and you know, 379 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 3: all all of that, and so I just had this 380 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 3: like really idealistic vision of what Italy was going to 381 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 3: be in my mind. And I'll, you know, as soon 382 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 3: as I got there, it was it lived up to 383 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 3: my expectations. Like the few weeks that I was there 384 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,959 Speaker 3: when everything was going great were some of the best 385 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 3: weeks of my life. Like there were some like some 386 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 3: moments of awkwardness in the transition, and but like, you know, 387 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 3: you chalk that up to being a young woman in 388 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: a foreign country who's figuring herself out, Like it's going 389 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 3: to be a little awkward, but nothing like bad. And 390 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 3: I had a great time and I met great people, 391 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 3: and yeah, I was really grateful. 392 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a 393 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: word from our sponsors. How long had you been there 394 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: when you came home and knew something was wrong? And 395 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: you know, paint that picture in any way that you 396 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: wish you or not, but you know, you call the 397 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: police expecting help. Yeah, and everything turns upside down? How 398 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: long had you been in the country. 399 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 3: So I had been in Perusia for about five weeks, 400 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 3: so not very long at all. Still sort of getting 401 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 3: my bearings, still meeting people, still finding my rhythm. I 402 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 3: had just recently met a young computer engineering student. My 403 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 3: Italian stallion was this bespeckled point dexter named Rafaele Salachico. 404 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,359 Speaker 3: I met him at a little classical music concert that 405 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 3: was at my school, and so it was everything was 406 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 3: still very brand new, feeling right, and yet you know, 407 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,199 Speaker 3: coming home that morning, I had spent the night with 408 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 3: raphae La and I came home actually because I wanted 409 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 3: to get changed into something pretty. It was a holiday, 410 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 3: so we were planning. RAPHAELI was planning on taking me 411 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: out on this like romantic weekend out of town into 412 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 3: like the you know, the hills of Umbria. He wanted 413 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 3: to like treat me to truffles, which I had never 414 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: had before. 415 00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: You were like, I'm gonna live my under the Tuscan sun. 416 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 3: This is sun life, and and so all my all 417 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: I was planning to do that morning was to just 418 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 3: go home really quickly, change into something like take a shower, 419 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 3: change into something pretty and then go back to his 420 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 3: place and go off on our little like romantic weekend. 421 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 3: That's where my head was at when I came home 422 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 3: and noticed that something was a miss. So first of all, 423 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 3: the front door was wide open, and it was sunny out, 424 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 3: but it wasn't like hot. This was November. This was 425 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 3: the beginning of November. So I was like, that's odd, 426 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 3: and I called out into the house. I was asking, like, 427 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 3: is anyone home? No one responded, so I thought, huh, 428 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 3: that's weird. And I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion 429 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 3: someone's been murdered in my house. I just was like, huh, 430 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 3: and it you know, I remembered that the latch to 431 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: the door was faulty, and so if you really wanted 432 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 3: to keep the door closed, you had to lock it 433 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 3: with a key, And so it occurred to me, well, 434 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: maybe when someone was leaving they forgot to lock you know, 435 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 3: the key all the way. Who knows, Like, maybe that's 436 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 3: what happened. So like I'm doing all of these processes 437 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 3: in my brain to go huh and then think what 438 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 3: could be the possible reason for that? Okay, fine, So 439 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 3: I had a series of those as I walked through 440 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 3: my house that morning, and again with the very limited 441 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 3: purpose of going and taking a shower, getting changed into 442 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 3: something pretty, and then leaving again. So the front door 443 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 3: is open, weird. I close it behind me, I lock 444 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 3: it behind me. I go and I get undressed. I 445 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 3: go into my bathroom and start brushing my teeth, you know, 446 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 3: getting ready to take a shower. And as I'm brushing 447 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 3: my teeth, I remember like spitting into the sink and 448 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 3: being like, huh, there were drops of blood in the sink. 449 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 3: Now again, my brain did not go someone's been murdered. 450 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: My brain went, oh uh. Well, first of all, I 451 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 3: was like, my are my gums bleeding? 452 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: Right? 453 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 3: And then but I was like, no, it's not. It's 454 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 3: like I checked and it was old blood, like it 455 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 3: had dried. And I was like, oh, that's weird. So 456 00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: then I thought, well, maybe someone cut themselves or maybe 457 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 3: someone had menstrul like blood and wash their hands. Like 458 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 3: I didn't know, Like it wasn't like a ton of blood. 459 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 3: I just thought that's weird. And then I tried to 460 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 3: come up with a reason for it, and then was 461 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 3: like okay, And then I got into the shower, took 462 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 3: a shower, got out of the shower, and as I 463 00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 3: was stepping out onto the bath mat to you know, 464 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 3: dry myself off, I noticed more blood on the bath 465 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 3: mat and I thought, that's weird. 466 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 2: Go to my room. I get dressed. 467 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: I start blow drying my hair in a separate bathroom, 468 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 3: and I noticed that there is feces left in the toilet. 469 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 3: And that is when all of the different things that 470 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 3: I noticed sort of like smashed together, as I, holy shit, 471 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 3: something's wrong because all of those things, like I could 472 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 3: come up with little excuses for all of the things 473 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 3: up to that moment, but like feces being left in 474 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 3: the toilet, yeah, was very unlike my roommates, Like I 475 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 3: could not imagine any of them doing that. And it 476 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 3: was the first thing that made me think, Oh, no, 477 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: someone else has been in my house. 478 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: In the house, yeah, you got the feeling. 479 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 3: I got the like creepy feeling, and I was like, 480 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 3: oh my god, is someone in the house right now? 481 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 3: And so I immediately left and I went back to Rafeli's 482 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 3: house and I asked him, like I told him all 483 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 3: about this, and I was like this, do I sound 484 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 3: like I'm overreacting? Like something feels off? And he was like, well, 485 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 3: if you're feeling unsure, you should just call your roommates 486 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 3: and figure out what's going on. 487 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 2: And so I did. 488 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: I tried calling my roommates and only one of them 489 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: picked up. I had three roommates. I tried calling Meredith, 490 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 3: she didn't answer. I tried calling loud, she didn't answer. 491 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 3: I finally got a hold of Philamena. She said that 492 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 3: she hadn't been home that night, just like she had 493 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: been her boyfriend's, just like I had been at Mines. 494 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 3: And so like all of this like cascade of like, Okay, 495 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 3: trying to figure out what's going on. I'm going to 496 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 3: meet Philamina back at the house. We're going to investigate 497 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 3: this further. And when we do, we discover that I 498 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 3: actually go into her room. I had no reason to 499 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: go into her room before. So now I go into 500 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 3: her room and I see that the window has been broken, 501 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: and so someone has broken into our house, come in 502 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 3: through the window. And we're looking around and we're going, 503 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 3: this is so weird because our laptops are here, her 504 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 3: camera is there, like all of this stuff that's very 505 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 3: valuable and easy to steal has not been stolen. So 506 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 3: we're like, Okay, someone broke into our house, but to 507 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 3: use the bathroom, like. 508 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: What is going on? 509 00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 3: And then yeah, like what is going on? So we 510 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 3: call the police and we and you know, and then 511 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 3: we assume that in calling the police, like we're gonna 512 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: get some help, We're gonna care what's going on. We're 513 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 3: still trying to get hold of our other roommates. 514 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: We can't. 515 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 3: We notice that Laura's room or Louda's room is like 516 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 3: completely fine, completely untouched. No one has even been in 517 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 3: her room. And then we try to check merediths and 518 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 3: her door is locked, and we're like, what is going on? 519 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 3: And we start thinking like is Meredith in her room? 520 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 3: Is she like has she locked the door? 521 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:33,640 Speaker 1: Like why is she scared? 522 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:35,520 Speaker 2: Is she scared? Like what is going on? 523 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 3: We're trying and trying to get a hold of her, 524 00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 3: and then finally someone breaks down her door and we see, 525 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 3: well they see I did not actually see. I was 526 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: not the one who broke down the door, and it 527 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 3: was all the way down a hallway, so like I 528 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 3: didn't see into the room. 529 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: Thank god. 530 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 3: I've never actually like saw her body in person. But 531 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 3: as soon as it was I think Philamena's boyfriend broke 532 00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 3: in the door, everyone started screaming, I mean yeah, and 533 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 3: all speaking in rapid fire Italian, and by then like 534 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 3: a few police officers that arrived, and so they're like, 535 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 3: get out of the house, get out of the house. 536 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 3: And so I'm sitting there trying to figure out what 537 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 3: it is they even saw in Meredith's room. And and 538 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,680 Speaker 3: this is like the first sort of getting hit by 539 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 3: a train moment, because it's like I didn't know what 540 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 3: was going on. I didn't actually see what they saw 541 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 3: in the room, but they're clearly freaking out. So something 542 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 3: really bad is in that room. I don't know if 543 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 3: it's the person who broke into our house, Like a 544 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 3: part of me was wondering maybe a person broke into 545 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 3: our house but cut themselves, and then like is injured 546 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 3: in her room, Like I don't know, Like I just 547 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 3: don't know, and I keep like the last thing that 548 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 3: my brain wants to believe is that Meredith has been murdered. 549 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:08,440 Speaker 3: And so I'm slow on the uptake of this completely 550 00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 3: insane piece of information, which also happens to be the truth. 551 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 3: And then I spend the next several days in a 552 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 3: kind of limbo of shock and being at the you know, 553 00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 3: at the mercy of police officers who are coming to 554 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 3: me and wanting me to just tell them anything I 555 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,360 Speaker 3: can possibly know or remember about anyone who might have, 556 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 3: like you know, had something against Meredith, or anything that 557 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 3: I noticed when I first came home, because I was 558 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 3: the first one to come home. So like, I'm just 559 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 3: like downloading all of this information over and over and 560 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 3: over again, not realizing that I'm not just like roommate 561 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 3: number three in an episode of Law and Order now, 562 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,280 Speaker 3: which is already surreal as it is, I'm actually suspect 563 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 3: number one, and I have no fucking clue. 564 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: Do you think that was because you were a foreigner 565 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: and because for whatever reason in the barrier of language 566 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: they first like, were they just suspicious that you'd taken 567 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: a shower? 568 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, So I've asked myself this question quite a lot, 569 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:33,880 Speaker 3: and I think I got some clarity, some clarity after 570 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 3: having read my prosecutor's book and also spoken with him 571 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 3: extensively in person. 572 00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:44,959 Speaker 2: Wow, and the thing. 573 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 3: So there were a number of things that singled me 574 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 3: out compared to other people, in one of which was 575 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 3: that of all the other people who lived in the 576 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 3: house where Meredith lived, and there were two floors, so 577 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 3: there was our apartment, which was the upper floor, and 578 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 3: there was a downstairs floor and they weren't connected, so 579 00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 3: it's not like you know, you know, they weren't connected. 580 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 3: But we were all in one house, right, So four 581 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,919 Speaker 3: girls were living upstairs, four guys were living downstairs, and 582 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 3: you know, we hung out with each other. Meredith was 583 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,440 Speaker 3: sort of kind of dating one of the guys downstairs. 584 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 3: So there was you know, access to the house was 585 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 3: available basically to all of the people who were there, 586 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 3: and the police, especially my prosecutor, from the very beginning, 587 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 3: believed that someone who had access to the house was 588 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 3: involved with the crime. And the reason they believed that 589 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 3: was because my prosecutor, who led the investigation, that's how 590 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 3: it works in Italy, he took one look at the 591 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 3: break in, like the broken window, you know, how this 592 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 3: person would have climbed into our house, and he said, no, 593 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 3: one would really do that. He didn't believe that someone 594 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 3: would break in through that particular window in our house, 595 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,959 Speaker 3: and so he said that the break in was not real, 596 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 3: it was staged and only someone who had access to 597 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 3: the house would stage a break in, and from there 598 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 3: he logically deduced everything else. So if someone who lives 599 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 3: in the house is guilty. Who could it be, Well, 600 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 3: it couldn't be any of the guys who lived downstairs 601 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 3: because they were out of town with their families at 602 00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 3: the time. It couldn't be. It couldn't have been Laura 603 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 3: because she was out of town in Rome at the time. 604 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 3: And again, like al they call it alib alibidi ferro, 605 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 3: an iron clad alibi. So that left That left Philomena, 606 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:58,280 Speaker 3: and it left me, and we had the same alibi. 607 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 3: Basically we were at our boyfriend's house. But Philamina cried 608 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 3: more than me. Philomena was older than me and also 609 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 3: a law intern, so she got a lawyer very quickly. 610 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 2: I did not, God, I didn't. 611 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:27,240 Speaker 3: There was some like mistranslation moments, like when I told 612 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,959 Speaker 3: the police, Like someone asked me, does Meredith ever lock 613 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 3: her door? And I said she sometimes locks her door, 614 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 3: and Philamina was like, she never locks her door, and 615 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,840 Speaker 3: why are you always saying she locks her door? And 616 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 3: I didn't say she always locks her door. I said 617 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 3: she sometimes locks her door. So there was just like 618 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 3: little moments of mistranslation where I think that me not 619 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 3: being a fluent speaker, me being an outsider, me being 620 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 3: and sort of deer in headlights came across as suspicious 621 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 3: to the police, and so so very very quickly, like 622 00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 3: from day one, they had their eyes on me. And 623 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 3: they deny this, They say that they did not fixate 624 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 3: on me. But it's hard for me to believe because 625 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 3: of every single person who lived in that house, the 626 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 3: only person who they tapped her phone from the very 627 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 3: beginning was me, right, So I was clearly of special interest. 628 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 3: I was questioned far more than anyone else who knew Meredith, 629 00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 3: who lived in the house anything, And so from the 630 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 3: very beginning, the police thought that I was involved. 631 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:45,360 Speaker 1: Somehow, I just can't imagine the both the sense of 632 00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: impending doom and also the naivete knowing you weren't there 633 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: that the doom could be impending. 634 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had no idea that there was doom impending. 635 00:40:59,160 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 3: I m not. 636 00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: And you know, I mean, I mean, listen, anyone who 637 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: wasn't living under a rock knows what happens. You were 638 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: arrested for her murder. You know, you were convicted of 639 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 1: her murder, despite the fact that from the beginning there 640 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: were investigators pointing out that there was not evidence, that 641 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: there was nothing to tie you to this and I 642 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,359 Speaker 1: will say I remember at the time hearing about you 643 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: and the boyfriend, and maybe it was a whole like 644 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 1: polyamorous thing, and they really tried to make it seem 645 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: scandalous and sexual, and and I my heart hurts for 646 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: you because they put you in that fem fatale like 647 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,799 Speaker 1: evil woman archetype. 648 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 3: It was like a Tarantino film, but with me and 649 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 3: my name in my face. 650 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 2: It was really bad. 651 00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: This conversation is so immensely powerful to me, and I 652 00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: have so many more questions to ask Amanda, so she 653 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: is graciously going to stick around so we can finish 654 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:20,920 Speaker 1: this up in part two.