Speaker 1: Pushkin.
Speaker 2: Hey everyone, it's justin.
Speaker 1: Today.
Speaker 2: We're sharing a fantastic episode from another podcast, we love,
Speaker 2: Louder Than a Riot. If y'all don't know about this show,
Speaker 2: let me put you on game MPRS. Louder Than a
Speaker 2: Riot is an award winning narrative hip hop podcast that
Speaker 2: connects the stories of the biggest artists and innovators in
Speaker 2: the genre to socio political changes we're going through right now.
Speaker 2: This season, Louder Than a Riot is tackling the connection
Speaker 2: between hip hop and misogyny. Hosted by the great Sidney
Speaker 2: Madden and Rodney Carmichael, this team is digging into the
Speaker 2: unwritten rules of rap that have marginalized Black women for
Speaker 2: decades and highlighting the rule breakers who refuse to play nice.
Speaker 2: In this episode, you're about to hear, Louder Than a
Speaker 2: Riot tells the story of the first female mc mc
Speaker 2: Shah Rock. She's a rapper from the Bronx and former
Speaker 2: member of the Funky Four plus one More who laid
Speaker 2: the foundations of rap as we know it. But even
Speaker 2: though she's a pioneer, Shah's name often gets left out
Speaker 2: of conversations around the history of hip hop. Why is
Speaker 2: that because decades ago, shah Rock had to deal with
Speaker 2: the hurdles that so many women in rap still face today,
Speaker 2: getting tokenized by her peers and played by the industry.
Speaker 2: You're about to hear the story from the people who
Speaker 2: lived it, interviews with shah Rock herself, along with rappers
Speaker 2: she inspired like DMC, also historical experts like author Clover Hope.
Speaker 2: This episode is a meditation on legacy. Who gets afforded
Speaker 2: a legacy in hip hop? Who gets left out? And
Speaker 2: how can you reclaim a legacy stolen from you? We
Speaker 2: hope you enjoyed this episode as much as we did.
Speaker 2: You can listen to more episodes from Louder than a Riot,
Speaker 2: from Mprmiter Music, wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 3: A warning before we begin this podcast is explicit in
Speaker 3: every way. Okay, So yeah, So this is the Bronx
Speaker 3: Music Heritage Center. It's giving very much Bronx after school,
Speaker 3: painted piano, drum set, community center, vibes, posters everywhere, good crowd,
Speaker 3: Q Crawd. We're the younger people in here, definitely here.
Speaker 3: I'm here with my producer Monos Sandrasan to see a
Speaker 3: Bronx hip hop legend. There's a small crowd in the
Speaker 3: community center. Grandmaster cast of the Cold Crush Brothers is
Speaker 3: cutting it up on the turntables. As we make the
Speaker 3: rounds to get a sense of who's here, we see
Speaker 3: an older white man in the front row.
Speaker 4: What's her name? Charles tell Rat and what do you
Speaker 4: know about Sha Rock? I was really into hip hop,
Speaker 4: but I got into it later.
Speaker 5: I didn't know about her.
Speaker 6: I thought Jane was the first question, but y'all.
Speaker 5: Rock was the first.
Speaker 3: Kaz bathes out the music and people start quieting down.
Speaker 3: The woman of the hour takes the stage.
Speaker 7: Her name is mc shah Rock.
Speaker 4: We are so happy you have on the same the
Speaker 4: first female EMC is they were.
Speaker 8: Were for those of you.
Speaker 3: Jall's got on big shades, gold hoop earrings, and a
Speaker 3: black leather jacket. The way she commands the room, you
Speaker 3: can definitely tell she was raising the Bronx.
Speaker 4: I was the first female EMC to help move hip
Speaker 4: hop culture with little or no resources. I set the
Speaker 4: blue print and I say that humbly, but y'all gott
Speaker 4: to know the truths.
Speaker 9: Y'all gotta know the truth, especially when we're talking about
Speaker 9: the Bronx, and especially when we're talking about the history
Speaker 9: of the Bronx.
Speaker 4: Y'all gotta know the truth. There were other female them
Speaker 4: seeds that came out in ninety seventy nine. I'm the
Speaker 4: first female I'm see to have a record deal, authentic
Speaker 4: female mobc to have a record deal. The first MC
Speaker 4: was national television Saturday Night Live. Yeah, I'm not small,
Speaker 4: but I'll take some questions. But hold on.
Speaker 3: If you haven't heard of MC Shahrock, member of the
Speaker 3: Funky four plus one more and the first female MC,
Speaker 3: You're not alone. There's some specific reasons why.
Speaker 10: See.
Speaker 3: Some people get a raise from history, but Shaw was
Speaker 3: never in it to begin with. Part of the reason
Speaker 3: was because she was laying the foundations for hip hop
Speaker 3: before it was even really being documented.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but the bigger reason is because she was treated
Speaker 5: like an accessory and an afterthought. This season is about
Speaker 5: how hard it is to be a woman in rap today,
Speaker 5: but imagine what it must have felt like to be
Speaker 5: a woman doing it in the genre's infancy. Now. Shallrock
Speaker 5: was no stranger to the spotlight. During her heyday in
Speaker 5: nineteen eighty one, she and her group the Funky four
Speaker 5: plus one became some of the first m seeds to
Speaker 5: bring hip hop to the mainstream when they took center
Speaker 5: stage on Saturday Night Live.
Speaker 7: The next Group are among the best street rappers in
Speaker 7: the country.
Speaker 4: Please welcome my friends from the Bronx, the Funky Four
Speaker 4: plus one more.
Speaker 5: That night should have submitised SHOT's legacy, but it didn't. Instead,
Speaker 5: it led to her group's downfall.
Speaker 4: They wouldn't talk to me, They didn't want to say
Speaker 4: anything to me. They was like, really fall back. I
Speaker 4: mean there was really no conversation, but like, why would
Speaker 4: you do that? Shot Rock? You know?
Speaker 5: And the reason why Shyd's story is really where all
Speaker 5: these double standards started.
Speaker 7: I'm Rodney Carmarchael, I'm Sidney Madden and.
Speaker 5: From NPR Music. This is louder than the riot.
Speaker 3: Where we confront the double standard does become the standard.
Speaker 5: On every episode this season, we tackle one unwritten rule
Speaker 5: of hip hop that affects the most marginalized among us
Speaker 5: and holds the entire culture back and one then.
Speaker 3: A new generation a rap refuses to.
Speaker 5: Stand for On this episode, breaking down legacy, who gets
Speaker 5: to leave one in hip hop and who gets.
Speaker 3: Left out from her rap crew, rejecting her to a
Speaker 3: twenty five year legal battle mc shot rock takes us
Speaker 3: through her fight to be remembered. Rule number two, Baby girl,
Speaker 3: your only funky is your last cut?
Speaker 5: All right? Said, I've been dying to ask you this. Oh, Mike,
Speaker 5: who is your top five dead or lie?
Speaker 3: That's mad hard But okay, I mean for me, Missy's
Speaker 3: on there, Kendrick's on.
Speaker 7: There, Big is on there.
Speaker 3: But you know what, you know what always seems so
Speaker 3: unfair about this question to me? It makes me think
Speaker 3: about all the biases that go into these lists, Like,
Speaker 3: you know, I know, of course everyone has their.
Speaker 5: Own taste, but you're saying it feels like there's something
Speaker 5: more than tastes reflected in these lists.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, it's implicit bias that's used as a way
Speaker 3: to cover up the fact that the people making the
Speaker 3: lists think that men are just overall better at rapping.
Speaker 3: And if there are any women on the list, it's
Speaker 3: usually just one token one, you know, and it's always
Speaker 3: the same usual suspects.
Speaker 5: Lauren, Missy, cam.
Speaker 3: Nikki exactly, But what about Jean Gray or Azalea or
Speaker 3: Rhapsoy or Megan. And that's why reimagining the cannon of
Speaker 3: the Greatest mcs takes real work.
Speaker 7: We talk to somebody who's doing exactly that.
Speaker 11: When you're thinking about carving out history and the people
Speaker 11: who are in power, it's men, and men get to
Speaker 11: tell these tall tales basically about what they did, and
Speaker 11: men get to create history for other people as well.
Speaker 3: That's Clover Hope, a long time hip hop journalist whose
Speaker 3: bylines range from Double xl and The Source to The
Speaker 3: New York Times in Vogue.
Speaker 5: But even as a revere critic Clovid, Miss Shahrock story
Speaker 5: was brand new to her.
Speaker 11: I certainly even as a hip hop had who was
Speaker 11: writing about it for like, since I was twenty and
Speaker 11: in it, since I was like thirteen, Like, I didn't
Speaker 11: know a lot of these stories about the young girls
Speaker 11: who were part of creating this culture. I knew the
Speaker 11: date of hip hop being created and the names of
Speaker 11: some of the early you know, like Grandmaster Flash, and
Speaker 11: I didn't know her name.
Speaker 5: That was a big motivation for Clover to write The
Speaker 5: Motherlwe one hundred plus women who made Hipbob. It's like
Speaker 5: a reimagined Kennon that finally puts women front and center.
Speaker 3: Shahrack is one of the first profiles in the Motherland.
Speaker 3: Clover writes that Shaw is considered, quote, the first prominent
Speaker 3: female mc clover says she wanted readers to know Shah's
Speaker 3: story because it's been hidden for so long. And that's
Speaker 3: the case for many rappers, but for Shah, the reasons
Speaker 3: behind that erasure reveal how bias is built into the
Speaker 3: foundations of hip hop.
Speaker 11: I wrote a line in Theyer that I always go
Speaker 11: back to, which is that history is what a dominant
Speaker 11: group decides.
Speaker 3: This fact, Shah herself is a living testament of.
Speaker 4: This history has been changed over the years, and I
Speaker 4: see it in hip hop culture, but I'm not one
Speaker 4: to allow that to happen.
Speaker 5: When we called up Shah, she was sitting at a
Speaker 5: kitchen table in Texas. It's a long way from the
Speaker 5: Bronx where she got a start, and back then, Sha
Speaker 5: wasn't thinking about legacy. She was focused on how having
Speaker 5: fun outside her corner of the Bronx was giving birth
Speaker 5: to hip hop. And as a teenager she discovered breakdancing.
Speaker 5: She rocked the oversize sweatshirts and lee jeans. She was
Speaker 5: becoming a b girl.
Speaker 4: The first person that I saw breakdance was friends of mine,
Speaker 4: you know that had went to junior high school with me.
Speaker 4: You know, they taught me how to break dance. They
Speaker 4: taught me what it was to you know, up rock,
Speaker 4: what it was to you know, just hit the beats,
Speaker 4: you know, whenever you hear that certain break beats.
Speaker 5: Shot traveled all over the Bronx, every part Jam, every
Speaker 5: house party, anywhere DJ's was spending breakbeats.
Speaker 4: The circles was always male dominated when it came to
Speaker 4: be boys, and to me, you know, as a b girl,
Speaker 4: I was sort of like a tomboy, you know, of
Speaker 4: growing up and so you know when you've seen it,
Speaker 4: I mean it's just like a feeling that you knew
Speaker 4: that you had to be a part of.
Speaker 5: Yeah, something big was happening in the Bronx and b
Speaker 5: girling that was SHOT's way in, you.
Speaker 4: Know, gave you like a feeling like you I mean,
Speaker 4: like you could you could just like take on the world,
Speaker 4: you know, because it was I don't know, it was
Speaker 4: just like a crazy feeling where it was like it
Speaker 4: just empowered you as a woman. I know it did
Speaker 4: for me as a young teenager, and I'm quite sure
Speaker 4: it did it, you know, for you know, the young
Speaker 4: guys that was out there at the time.
Speaker 3: At the time, she'd also been zabbling in poetry, but
Speaker 3: se I wanted to do something bigger with it. She
Speaker 3: wanted to rap and in show's day being a rapper
Speaker 3: and being part of a crew. One day, Shall was
Speaker 3: stopped by a young man passing out flyers.
Speaker 4: He said, listen, you know we're having an audition. Would
Speaker 4: you want to come in audition for MC? I saysue, now,
Speaker 4: why not?
Speaker 5: Sean had to take a bus uptown to the basement
Speaker 5: of a three story house where a dude named DJ
Speaker 5: Breakout and a manager named Jazzy D were conducting the audition.
Speaker 5: On the bus ride there, she rode up first rap
Speaker 5: ever and recited it over and over, and then, standing
Speaker 5: in front of the manager, Shahrock went in, I'm.
Speaker 4: Showing rock and I can't be stopped for all the
Speaker 4: fly guys who want to hit the top. I could
Speaker 4: do it for the ones that are strong, and I
Speaker 4: could do it for the ones that are right or wrong.
Speaker 4: But I'm listed on the column that's classified, and I
Speaker 4: could be your nurse, and I'm qualified to talk about respect.
Speaker 4: I won't neglect my strategy. It's for you to see,
Speaker 4: so don't turn away by what I say because I'm
Speaker 4: on I'm bed when I'm talking to you, and the
Speaker 4: manager loved me, you know, he was like.
Speaker 3: Yo.
Speaker 5: She spit fired the crew like that. She rocked around
Speaker 5: so much they named a shot Rock right on the spot.
Speaker 3: Shah officially joined up with the Funky Four in nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy eight. She was the only girl in the crew
Speaker 3: and her presence was felt immediately.
Speaker 5: What did your male counterparts think of your early raps?
Speaker 4: I was always a secret weapon. A lot of other
Speaker 4: groups were scrambling trying to find female mcs that can
Speaker 4: be able to deal with Shahrock.
Speaker 12: There was really no competition during that time, especially for Shahrack.
Speaker 5: That's Raheem, another original member of the Foky Four. Raheem
Speaker 5: auditioned for the group after Shah had already joined, and
Speaker 5: with Raheem joining the crew, the Fanky four were locked in.
Speaker 5: It was KK Rockwell Keith, Keith, Raheem and MC Shahrock.
Speaker 5: Raheem says he always looked at Shahrock like a sister
Speaker 5: and from day one he respected a technique, her style.
Speaker 1: Her poise, her delivery.
Speaker 12: Knew immediately when you heard her, as soon as you
Speaker 12: heard and this is Shahrock, and she made sure that
Speaker 12: you knew, whether you were a man or a woman,
Speaker 12: if you were an MC, that you you couldn't get
Speaker 12: with him.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but peat this. He also says she served a
Speaker 5: very speciific purpose to the group with.
Speaker 1: A female.
Speaker 12: In the group.
Speaker 4: You know, obviously that's to calm the wolves down.
Speaker 12: And we needed that during that time period because if
Speaker 12: we didn't keep the audience suits that we entertained in
Speaker 12: the Bronx during the seventies, there was gonna be a problem.
Speaker 12: There was gonna be a shootout, there was gonna be
Speaker 12: a stabbing, somebody was.
Speaker 4: Gonna get robbed.
Speaker 5: Yeah. The Bronx was hip hop's birthplace for a reason.
Speaker 5: The earliest rap crews originated from gang culture and sometimes
Speaker 5: those tithes bled over into the party.
Speaker 3: So basically, se I was seen as a dope MC,
Speaker 3: but also seen as a token even by members of
Speaker 3: her own group. And that was really spelled out when
Speaker 3: the group had some lineup changes and rebranded as the
Speaker 3: Funky four plus one more and guess who is the
Speaker 3: plus one? So why did they call it Funky four
Speaker 3: plus one instead of Funky five?
Speaker 7: What was the plus one?
Speaker 3: Because that seemed to differentiate you as you know, as
Speaker 3: being like the woman on there.
Speaker 4: I think the reason why my manager did do it
Speaker 4: is because, you know, he didn't want to have like
Speaker 4: the Furious five or the Order the Furiest or the
Speaker 4: Funky five or whatever. He just wanted, you know, me
Speaker 4: to be stand out. So when they say the plus one,
Speaker 4: you know, it's like, Okay, we have the Funky four,
Speaker 4: but we got somebody else. The plus one.
Speaker 5: Plus one could mean you're the most important member, but
Speaker 5: it could also mean you a footnote. But it was
Speaker 5: shy Rock whose innovations helped the Funky Four stand out
Speaker 5: and lay the foundation for where rap was going next.
Speaker 5: You gotta understand rap. It had been around for a minute,
Speaker 5: but still sounded damn there prehistoric at the time.
Speaker 4: Seventy eight was the critical and the most important year
Speaker 4: of MC's within hip hop culture because that was the
Speaker 4: year that the MC's set the example of how you
Speaker 4: may see an MC ronniey today because the MC's were
Speaker 4: not rhyming like that. They were not rhyming in the format.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: And I was a part of the MC's that made
Speaker 4: that format for future mcs. And I should say that
Speaker 4: I was the female MC that helped make that format
Speaker 4: for the future MCS.
Speaker 3: People were bumping these tapes, listening to the blue brand
Speaker 3: of rap. It must have been like stumbling upon a
Speaker 3: new language, one that was made just for you, discovering
Speaker 3: new pathways for sound, with every break being sixteen bar verse.
Speaker 3: These originators were laying down a new framework for music.
Speaker 3: The possibilities were endless, and shot play with all of them.
Speaker 4: My manager he went and found out how to buy
Speaker 4: this this instrument, and it was called the Echo chain.
Speaker 4: And so whenever I used to say a rhyme or
Speaker 4: I would say, like shah rock rock, rock, rock rock,
Speaker 4: you put the echo on it rock. Or when I
Speaker 4: don't say yes yes y'all, yes, yaw yes, yaw yes,
Speaker 4: yaw yes y'all, it would repeat every last word of.
Speaker 8: My run that I would say, Now, this is the
Speaker 8: way we wanted none And at the same time, that's
Speaker 8: with your mind. It's the same identical beat one time
Speaker 8: as we possessed.
Speaker 4: To be gonna make you want to run. And I
Speaker 4: became so synonymous with the New York City on cassette
Speaker 4: tapes or when I was rhyming in the echo, changing
Speaker 4: people was like Okay, let me run out and get
Speaker 4: this echo chain.
Speaker 5: People all throughout the city called win or what y'all
Speaker 5: was doing, even guys who would eventually pop up all
Speaker 5: over those all time goat lists.
Speaker 13: So I heard a funky four plus one. I heard that,
Speaker 13: and then on that record was this girl.
Speaker 5: Now that's DMC of Run DMC, one of the most
Speaker 5: influential rap groups of all time.
Speaker 13: And since it was a girl, the voice was so distinctive,
Speaker 13: but it sounded stronger, more grounded, more versatile, more unique,
Speaker 13: more impressive than all of the dudes that.
Speaker 1: I had heard up to that point.
Speaker 13: It was just a different energy and they were all
Speaker 13: switching off and wrapping.
Speaker 1: But when it got to the part where they.
Speaker 13: Said, shy rock, don't stop, just turn on your mic
Speaker 13: and you're ready to rock.
Speaker 1: And this person, I don't want to just see a girl.
Speaker 13: This person just went when the sun don't shine, the
Speaker 13: rain don't stop. But we got sounded caught punk rocket,
Speaker 13: Just get up out the chaders, I have fuck, We're
Speaker 13: to DJA.
Speaker 1: I heard a rhyming over.
Speaker 13: The break beat seven minutes of funk, and it was
Speaker 13: it was just the craziest thing that ever heard. And
Speaker 13: I heard a lot of people do it, but there
Speaker 13: was something about the way Shahrock delivered her rhymes that
Speaker 13: was just the pro to type to be. She was
Speaker 13: already dominant, the echo chamber just made her invincible.
Speaker 3: Shaw's influence can be heard all over those run DMC records,
Speaker 3: like Run's House from their album Tougher Than Lother.
Speaker 5: I don't know.
Speaker 10: DMCs the most rock, So shah Rack has real influence
Speaker 10: on the art and science of MC.
Speaker 3: But as the Funky four plus one more we're about
Speaker 3: to get their big break and introduce hip hop to
Speaker 3: the rest of America, she was about to see how
Speaker 3: being that plus one could be a minus.
Speaker 4: By eighty we were signed to sugar Hill Records, you know,
Speaker 4: in June of eighty And with that said, you know,
Speaker 4: our first song that we put out with sugar Hill
Speaker 4: Records would call That's to Join.
Speaker 11: Rock.
Speaker 5: So Sha Rock was the Funky four plus one secret weapon,
Speaker 5: and when sugar Hill Records got hipped to him, the
Speaker 5: CEO of the label, Sylvia Robinson, latched onto Shatrock's talents
Speaker 5: and her innocence.
Speaker 4: I was seventeen going on eighteen. But the crazy thing
Speaker 4: about it is that my mother didn't even sign you know,
Speaker 4: my my contract for me, my sister. She wasn't my
Speaker 4: legal guardian, but she signed my contract for me, you know,
Speaker 4: because I wanted to do it so bad. But yeah,
Speaker 4: I was seventeen. I was seventeen at the time, seventeen
Speaker 4: going on eighteen at the time that I signed to
Speaker 4: sugar Hill Records.
Speaker 5: Since Shaw was under age, she had a sister signed
Speaker 5: and she didn't want a mom to talk her out
Speaker 5: of it. So wait a minute, was your sister signing?
Speaker 5: Was that? Was that legal?
Speaker 4: Nope, they didn't care.
Speaker 3: Okay, of the strength of that's the joint. Sylvia Robinson
Speaker 3: sent the group out on their first tour. They were
Speaker 3: each promised to make five hundred dollars a show.
Speaker 4: What Silver Robinson did with this first sugar Hill tour
Speaker 4: is that she wanted everybody you know that was under
Speaker 4: her label at the time. She wanted to take us
Speaker 4: on like this major tour around the world, you know,
Speaker 4: to be able to, you know, let people see what
Speaker 4: sugar Hill Records was doing. And so the idea was great.
Speaker 4: I mean, we hit every major city that you could imagine,
Speaker 4: every arena, every place that we played at was sold out.
Speaker 4: When you going to places like Wisconsin. You go into
Speaker 4: places like Chicago, Florida, you know, places that we never
Speaker 4: even been before, excepted you know, rapped within hip hop.
Speaker 4: Like it was like like it was something new to them.
Speaker 4: They were going crazy. You know, It's like they treated
Speaker 4: us like we were like the Jacksons. I was like, listen,
Speaker 4: you know what we made it. People are loving what
Speaker 4: we do, something that we created.
Speaker 3: And as the tour was coming to a close, the
Speaker 3: Funky Four plus one got another call from Sylvia Robinson.
Speaker 4: Miss Robinson called us out, you know, on to it
Speaker 4: and say Saturday Night Live, want y'all to come and perform.
Speaker 3: Debbie Harriet Blondie was set to host and perform on
Speaker 3: the show and she wanted to feature a special guest, and.
Speaker 4: We were told the reason why she wanted us as
Speaker 4: opposed to Grandmaster Flash the Furious five of the sugar
Speaker 4: Hill Game is because they had a female and the
Speaker 4: fact that we were young and innocent.
Speaker 5: Looking now, this was the secret weapon in action. Having
Speaker 5: shot in the group was opening the door for the
Speaker 5: Funky Four. But if being sugar Hills first Lady was
Speaker 5: paying off for her group, it was low keep hissing
Speaker 5: off the labels of the acts.
Speaker 4: Everybody in their mamas was mad with us on that
Speaker 4: tour of US groups were mad. The other groups was mad.
Speaker 4: They was furious because they were not the ones that
Speaker 4: got chosen to peer on the Saturday nine nine.
Speaker 5: That's why when the tour ended and the Tour US
Speaker 5: pulled up the Sugar Hills parking lot.
Speaker 4: Fights broke out. You know, it just went crazy and
Speaker 4: left after that.
Speaker 3: Yep, the Funky four plus one and the Furious Five
Speaker 3: three hands you.
Speaker 5: Remember that fight, Yeah, yep, vividly. By this time, Raheem
Speaker 5: had left the Funky four plus one and joined their rivals,
Speaker 5: the Furious Five. He was in the parking lot that
Speaker 5: day too, just like shall I.
Speaker 12: Had nothing to do with the beef between the Funky
Speaker 12: four plus one and the Furious Five. The person from
Speaker 12: the Furious Five who was physically aggressive towards the Funky
Speaker 12: four plus one was Cowboy thrust at Beach.
Speaker 5: Do you remember what Cowboy said in the moment? How
Speaker 5: did he spark it off?
Speaker 1: I don't remember what was said.
Speaker 12: I just remember he went after a little Rodney Sea
Speaker 12: physically and uh he you know, punched him in the
Speaker 12: head or the face or up.
Speaker 4: It's so much stuff happened within those last couple of
Speaker 4: days as far as animosity, you know, and and vice
Speaker 4: and arguments and all that stuff that went down. And
Speaker 4: so it came to head, you know, in the parking
Speaker 4: lot of Sugar Records, and.
Speaker 3: You might be thinking, what does this have to do
Speaker 3: with Shah, Well, nothing and everything to all the other groups.
Speaker 3: She wasn't just seen his competition. She was now a
Speaker 3: threat just by being there. But the Funky Four plus
Speaker 3: one More couldn't dwell on that rap beef because a
Speaker 3: few days later, their big night on SNL arrived. Take
Speaker 3: us back to like walking to that studio for the
Speaker 3: first time, What did it look like?
Speaker 7: What did it feel like?
Speaker 4: It was like, Okay, we're gonna be on TV. We
Speaker 4: still don't know the impact of being the first authentic
Speaker 4: hip hop group to ever, you know, be on TV.
Speaker 4: All we know is that you're gonna see us on
Speaker 4: TV and that's it.
Speaker 5: And while the Funky Four sat in the green room
Speaker 5: waiting for their performance, they watched the show live. The
Speaker 5: Valentine's Day special It's Essenel's newest black cast member, Eddie Murphy,
Speaker 5: popped out in a cupit costume during Debbie Harry's monologs
Speaker 5: They Love Me. Towards the end of the show, Debbie
Speaker 5: Harry introduces the Funky Four.
Speaker 4: What she said was, I got the best street rapper,
Speaker 4: best street up from the country.
Speaker 3: Please welcome my friends from the Bronx, the Funky Four
Speaker 3: plus one.
Speaker 5: More on stage. You can see the cruise arms locked
Speaker 5: around Shot rocking like she's in a cage or a
Speaker 5: cocoon almost, and then the guys they roll off to
Speaker 5: the left and right and feeling that start. Shots dressed
Speaker 5: differently than the guys who got on type brooom card
Speaker 5: against the cane goes. She's rocking a side ponytail jeans,
Speaker 5: stuffed in a white cowboy boots and a pink fly.
Speaker 5: You standing side by side the Funky four plus one
Speaker 5: kick off the smash hit, the shot weaves in and
Speaker 5: out of the other versus perfectly wet.
Speaker 14: You can call it.
Speaker 5: We're doing We're gonna this.
Speaker 13: You understanding, you're hearing the record, You're hearing the tapes
Speaker 13: and stuff like that. And then you wake up and
Speaker 13: somebody says, yo, they was on TV last night. That
Speaker 13: was the life changing moment. So I can imagine that
Speaker 13: the older folks seeing that, going Okay, what the hell
Speaker 13: is this?
Speaker 1: We're not sure, we don't hate it, and then there's
Speaker 1: the people that just hated it. That's the number one
Speaker 1: iconic moment in the hip hop This was.
Speaker 3: One of the first times a hip hop group was
Speaker 3: nationally televised. Esno was likely the biggest stage rap had
Speaker 3: ever been on at that point. But DMC and all
Speaker 3: the SNL viewers at home, they didn't realize that that night,
Speaker 3: Sha was carrying her.
Speaker 7: Own plus one.
Speaker 4: I was pregnant at the time. I think that was
Speaker 4: like about four or five six months pregnant something like that,
Speaker 4: and so I was like hurting. I was feeling kind
Speaker 4: of crazy and all of that stuff. My stomach was hurting.
Speaker 3: And listen, this is nothing like Rihanna doing her big
Speaker 3: reveal of her baby bump at the Super Bowl. SA
Speaker 3: was doing her best to try and hide her bump
Speaker 3: and how she was feeling as she gave her best effort.
Speaker 3: You could tell from the recording She's stiff and slow.
Speaker 4: With her movements. That's why you would see I would
Speaker 4: stay staying in a certain way, you know, and just
Speaker 4: look forward, focus out, you know. And so I was like,
Speaker 4: let me know, let me just get through this, you know,
Speaker 4: and I'll tell them tomorrow.
Speaker 3: This was the highest point of the group's career so far,
Speaker 3: and she didn't want to blow it.
Speaker 4: Because I just wanted to get through the television show.
Speaker 4: I didn't want, you know, them to feel a certain
Speaker 4: kind of way, you know, So I waited until the
Speaker 4: next day, and I told them one by one. I
Speaker 4: told Rodney because I was closer to him first. I
Speaker 4: told him first, and of course he went and he
Speaker 4: told the other guys, you know, within the group, and
Speaker 4: it was like trickets.
Speaker 5: After that, nobody in the group had shots back.
Speaker 4: They was like, really fall back. I mean there was
Speaker 4: really no conversation, but like, why would you do that? Shot? Rock,
Speaker 4: you know, and then it was like they were distanced.
Speaker 5: The way Sean tells it, the guys felt her pregnancy
Speaker 5: would hold them all back.
Speaker 4: They felt like it would hinder everything that we had
Speaker 4: moving forward. Shack's pregnant, It's going to slow us down,
Speaker 4: and so they were very upset.
Speaker 5: Even though Raheem wasn't a member of the group anymore.
Speaker 5: He says. He relates to how the rest of the
Speaker 5: Funky Four reacted to Shah's pregnancy at the time.
Speaker 12: They were concerned about their their livelihoods, you know, at
Speaker 12: that time, and I could certainly understand that if I
Speaker 12: were a member of their group at that time, I
Speaker 12: probably would have voiced the same concern, or maybe not.
Speaker 5: At this point, the other members of her crew were
Speaker 5: treating Shad more like a liability than an asset. Her
Speaker 5: pregnancy was clearly a problem in their eyes, so they were.
Speaker 4: Very protected of them, and I think when it's all
Speaker 4: said and done, they probably felt like, now if I
Speaker 4: covered you, then you cover us, you know, make sure
Speaker 4: that we're good, make sure that you know we ready
Speaker 4: to you know, take the whole world bostone.
Speaker 7: Like you betrayed them or something.
Speaker 4: You could say that. You could say that, but do
Speaker 4: you ever.
Speaker 3: Think about the double standard of that, Like how you're
Speaker 3: choosing to do something with your own body could be
Speaker 3: a betrayal to them, Like.
Speaker 4: I didn't look at it at that time at the time,
Speaker 4: you know, far as like betrayal. I kind of got it,
Speaker 4: you know, because not the fact that I betrayed them,
Speaker 4: but the fact that I loved hip hop so much
Speaker 4: that I could have, you know, thought about you know,
Speaker 4: there could have been other ways to you know, to
Speaker 4: do it or other ways that I could have made
Speaker 4: sure that that wasn't the right timing. That was a
Speaker 4: decision that I made. I mean, it was upon me.
Speaker 4: I wasn't gonna do anything else to terminate, you know,
Speaker 4: the situation, and I just had to deal with it.
Speaker 4: But after the pregnancy, that's when things went downhill for
Speaker 4: the fucking Plus.
Speaker 3: How did it feel to have, like, have such little
Speaker 3: support from them, from your crew members, from Rodney and
Speaker 3: everybody once you told them.
Speaker 4: You know what, I've never really blamed them for, you know,
Speaker 4: because I look at it like this. You know, we
Speaker 4: were all young. We were in our teenagers, and so
Speaker 4: where you expect for somebody, you know, maybe much older,
Speaker 4: you know, to be understanding, I think that they were
Speaker 4: dealing with their own feelings as well, especially being young.
Speaker 3: So I gives the guys a lot of grace in hindsight,
Speaker 3: maybe more than they even deserve. Because even if she
Speaker 3: won't say it, what her group members did was messed up.
Speaker 3: They iced her out, and things wouldn't ever be the
Speaker 3: same after that. Shaw was scared too. She didn't know
Speaker 3: where to go from here.
Speaker 4: I felt like for me, I was at the height
Speaker 4: of my career as well, you know, And I was
Speaker 4: more so nervous, not because I didn't have to support
Speaker 4: you know, my family, but so much nervous to know
Speaker 4: that it would, you know, put a damper on me
Speaker 4: moving forward.
Speaker 5: Even though Shah was struggling to balance everything and get
Speaker 5: right with the guys, the four K four plus one
Speaker 5: was still up. That SNL performance had gone so well
Speaker 5: that Debbie Harry wanted them to sign to the same label.
Speaker 5: Her group Blondie was on only one problem, Sylvia Robinson
Speaker 5: and sugar Hill. They weren't having it, and it would
Speaker 5: be years before Shah could take control of her own career.
Speaker 5: By nineteen eighty three, just two years after the Biggest
Speaker 5: and Hell debut, the Funky four plus one had split up.
Speaker 5: Some members joined up with other crews, but shall Rock
Speaker 5: she had different responsibilities.
Speaker 4: There were times, right, you know, where there was no income,
Speaker 4: no money coming in, no money coming in nowhere.
Speaker 5: So once you had your daughter, like how were you
Speaker 5: able to take care of her?
Speaker 4: My mom?
Speaker 11: My mom?
Speaker 4: And it was so crazy about it, right because and
Speaker 4: here it is we in New York City. People are
Speaker 4: hearing our songs, They're looking at us like yo, what's
Speaker 4: going on. You know, y'all sugar records, you know, out
Speaker 4: of the Bronx where your money at?
Speaker 5: After it's Andel and the successor, that's the joint. You
Speaker 5: think she'd be getting paid. But after the Funky four
Speaker 5: plus one disbanded, Shaw was struggling to even see a
Speaker 5: dime of her royalties. At the time, she couldn't figure
Speaker 5: out why, because she thought her label ball Sylvia Robinson
Speaker 5: had her back.
Speaker 4: Miss Robinson promised me that she was going to look out,
Speaker 4: you know, for me as actually for the fact that
Speaker 4: she became the godmother of my daughter. You know, she
Speaker 4: christianed my daughter at two months old. You know, she
Speaker 4: came up to the Bronx in her Rose Wars and
Speaker 4: christian my daughter at two months old. So I believe
Speaker 4: that she was going to look out for me, you know,
Speaker 4: for all the money of the songs and all the
Speaker 4: things songs that I made. I honestly believe that she
Speaker 4: didn't look out for nobody else. She was going to
Speaker 4: look out for me because she christened my daughter as
Speaker 4: a god daughter. And so with that said, I just
Speaker 4: thought about, Yeah, I just thought about this that I
Speaker 4: can get back into here. It's really deep.
Speaker 7: I trusted Sylvia to do right by her.
Speaker 4: She promised this that she was going to pay us.
Speaker 4: She promised that she was going to allow us to
Speaker 4: record as many songs as we want, and she was
Speaker 4: going to ensure that all our fruits of label would
Speaker 4: come to fruition where we would be able to monetize
Speaker 4: off of the culture that we created. And she promises that,
Speaker 4: but it didn't happen.
Speaker 3: And unfortunately, this wasn't nothing new to y'all. Like remember
Speaker 3: how they were supposed to get paid five hundred dollars
Speaker 3: each per show.
Speaker 4: So when she came out there on tour, we was like,
Speaker 4: you know, what's going on. Our money is short, you
Speaker 4: know what I'm saying. And she gave us this whole story,
Speaker 4: and so everything erupted.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 4: She gave us one time we had asked her for
Speaker 4: an advancement and she gave us, like we thought we
Speaker 4: was gonna get, like us six seven thousand dollars, you
Speaker 4: know what I'm saying. She gave us like fifteen hundred dollars,
Speaker 4: you know, and we never seen no money again.
Speaker 3: Black musicians have been getting robbed by the record industry
Speaker 3: since the beginning of time, but it hits different when
Speaker 3: the label owner stealing your money is family and.
Speaker 5: Her being your daughter's god mom. I mean, did she
Speaker 5: had to see you struggling?
Speaker 4: I lived in the Bronx and she lived in the
Speaker 4: match in New Jersey, in Englewood. She didn't see it.
Speaker 4: She may have known, but she didn't see it because
Speaker 4: she didn't come to the Bronx.
Speaker 5: Selvia Robinson passed in twenty eleven, so we weren't able
Speaker 5: to talk to her for this story.
Speaker 11: Sylvia Robinson had this reputation for this kind of like
Speaker 11: really screwing over these groups financially.
Speaker 7: That's Clover Hope Again.
Speaker 11: Women and andb vultures and also play a role in
Speaker 11: misogyny or play a role in this larger capitalist system
Speaker 11: and down play other women, and so it's not limited
Speaker 11: to just men doing it.
Speaker 3: Shahrock did everything she could to see her clear of
Speaker 3: sugar Hill Records. She formed a new group called Us Girls,
Speaker 3: hoping the label wouldn't get its hands on whatever money
Speaker 3: came in. Her new crew even appeared in the classic
Speaker 3: film The Streets.
Speaker 8: Since Sharrock is the mood with the magical touch, I'm
Speaker 8: like trying to finance, you know, I'm just the one.
Speaker 15: I want to treat you like.
Speaker 3: But at every turn Shaw was bound by her contract
Speaker 3: with Sylvia. Basically, she was in the three sixty deal
Speaker 3: before those were even a thing.
Speaker 4: This is the reason why, Like in nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 4: I said, I'm not gonna do this. I'm not gonna
Speaker 4: allow no one to pimp me and take everything away
Speaker 4: from me that I love. So I fell back and
Speaker 4: I never recorded again for a long period of time,
Speaker 4: simply because I felt the way for me to handle
Speaker 4: this was to regroup that my contract run out, I
Speaker 4: don't record, I don't do anything that anybody can take
Speaker 4: anything away from me again.
Speaker 3: But even then, there wasn't a roadmap for an unsigned
Speaker 3: woman MC and hip hop trying to turn a passion
Speaker 3: into a profitable, long term career.
Speaker 5: Sea's career hit a glass ceiling. Eventually, hip hop's memory
Speaker 5: of the first female MC started to fade too. Shah
Speaker 5: moved on with the life.
Speaker 7: Until ten years later.
Speaker 3: When she was in a record store and spotted a
Speaker 3: sugar Hill compilation on sale for one hundred dollars.
Speaker 4: I'm talking to said, I said, Wow, this is they
Speaker 4: selling a song and I ain't getting paid from it,
Speaker 4: and I went on this this rampage to try to
Speaker 4: find an attorney, you know, to recoup my money.
Speaker 5: Shaw I wasn't making money, but clearly somebody was.
Speaker 7: She's I would have gone on a rampage too.
Speaker 5: She decided not to take it lying down, so she
Speaker 5: rounded up all the old label mates.
Speaker 4: I went to the Furious five, me and Roy. He
Speaker 4: was very close. I said, get all the members together,
Speaker 4: you know, and come in with me on this lawsuit.
Speaker 4: He got them together. I got to funk you for together,
Speaker 4: and I'm later on a group themed New Crash Crew
Speaker 4: you know, came on and so we fouled against Sylvia
Speaker 4: Robinson and sugar Hill Record.
Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety seven.
Speaker 7: Sean and her former label MATS by the suit.
Speaker 3: They were seeking royalties as well as other fees from Sylvia,
Speaker 3: her husband Joe Robinson, and their next of kin, who
Speaker 3: are now running the company.
Speaker 5: In this fight dragged on for decades, Robinson's were on
Speaker 5: cooperative and eventually both Joe and Silvia died before a
Speaker 5: final settlement was reached.
Speaker 4: And finally, you know, to make a long story short,
Speaker 4: after all these years, we finally, you know, were able
Speaker 4: to revert everything back to us.
Speaker 5: Now, Shah and Raheem wouldn't disclose to us how much
Speaker 5: money they got. But for Shah, it was never just
Speaker 5: about the money. This was about fighting for herself, for
Speaker 5: her fellow artists, and really for her own legacy.
Speaker 3: What does it feel like to get your royalties back,
Speaker 3: get literally get get the credit for your craft back
Speaker 3: after all this time, after all this time of being
Speaker 3: doubted and robbed.
Speaker 4: It feels like I've been vindicating, you know. It feels
Speaker 4: like that I am still here, you know, in flesh
Speaker 4: to be able to see the outcome, you know, and
Speaker 4: my kids, you know. And it's so crazy about it
Speaker 4: because I think that my kids know that I am
Speaker 4: a strong woman, you know, and they saw everything that
Speaker 4: I went through, you know, at that given birth. They
Speaker 4: heard it over the years. They heard me on the
Speaker 4: telephone talking to the attorneys. They heard my passion to
Speaker 4: other MC's, you know, they know how I feel about
Speaker 4: hip hop culture and to be vindicated bright and to allow.
Speaker 14: My kids to see that no matter what you believe in,
Speaker 14: whether or not somebody do you wrong or not, if
Speaker 14: you believe that what you're doing is right, then you
Speaker 14: go with distance.
Speaker 5: Other artists have tried to file against sugar Hill, but
Speaker 5: shall Rock she was the first to successfully get everybody paid.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the fight. That's just as historic as
Speaker 3: being the first few l MC. It's a claim to fame.
Speaker 3: Nobody else can make you feel like there's been times
Speaker 3: when you weren't respected for your craft, And do you
Speaker 3: feel respected for your craft now?
Speaker 4: I used to, you know, think about you know, not
Speaker 4: being respected in the beginning, you know, And so I
Speaker 4: learned not to take it personal. And so instead of me,
Speaker 4: you know, feeling like I was disrespected because people didn't
Speaker 4: know who Schavrock was, I took a different approach. I
Speaker 4: started telling people my story and will continue to tell
Speaker 4: people my story. And the more that I tell a
Speaker 4: person in story and they say, oh, what, that didn't happen,
Speaker 4: then prove it didn't. I can prove that it did.
Speaker 4: And so no, I learned to not take it personal,
Speaker 4: but to be personal and let people know who I
Speaker 4: am and what I meant and how I was instrumental
Speaker 4: in helping to move this culture forward.
Speaker 3: In spaces like the Bronx Music Carriage Center, Shah gets
Speaker 3: to define her own legacy.
Speaker 4: But I just want to say before I get started
Speaker 4: about Shavrock. I just want to say, y'all, we all
Speaker 4: the we created a multi billion dollar business back in
Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies. You know what I'm saying, a multi
Speaker 4: being dollar business. I'm proud of that, even though I
Speaker 4: have never received or recouped the money. As well as
Speaker 4: Grandmaster Kaz and Mellie Mel and Grand Wizzard Theodore, we
Speaker 4: are still proud to have created this being a dollar
Speaker 4: business because you know what, when it's all said and done,
Speaker 4: it was never about the money for us. It was
Speaker 4: about the heart and soul of the culture. The b girl,
Speaker 4: the Bee Boy, the MC, the graffiti artist, the DJ,
Speaker 4: right here in the Bronx. So let's give a round
Speaker 4: of applause to the Bronx and everybody that represents HIPIP
Speaker 4: culture to the fullest.
Speaker 3: At the end of her talk, Shahro starts answering questions
Speaker 3: from fans in the crowd.
Speaker 15: Thank you for your contribution to the culture because of
Speaker 15: your voice at an early age of planning to see
Speaker 15: that women were equal with men right on the mic,
Speaker 15: hearing you as a child told me women could do
Speaker 15: it too, and that has helped me develop as a man,
Speaker 15: being into spaces with women, because if shy Rock was
Speaker 15: into spaces with the fucking walklus one more women could
Speaker 15: be any spaces.
Speaker 4: So I like to thank you for thank you.
Speaker 3: So we talked more to this guy after he calls
Speaker 3: himself brother North of Division X, and he says he
Speaker 3: was one of the people who stayed up late to
Speaker 3: watch Rock on SNL.
Speaker 5: I had never been up past like eleven o'clock.
Speaker 6: When the news came on, it was time to go
Speaker 6: to sleep, and I begged if I could, you know,
Speaker 6: to be able to see it, and my mom's let
Speaker 6: me stay up and somehow I was able to catch
Speaker 6: it at the beginning and fell asleep, but it.
Speaker 3: Was The event was a small crowd, but Shaw's fans just.
Speaker 7: Keep giving her.
Speaker 16: I never knew realized that was a I was like yo,
Speaker 16: one for the girl. We never even saw it as
Speaker 16: like yo, she's a girl. And seeing that it was
Speaker 16: even a question because she rapped harder than a duke,
Speaker 16: you know what I'm saying. And her crew was hard.
Speaker 16: You know her crew back then, our crew was hard.
Speaker 16: They was tough, They they was dope. There was well respected.
Speaker 3: One woman in the crowd named Keina became an instant
Speaker 3: fan of Shaw that night. Do you know anything about
Speaker 3: shot Crack before tonight?
Speaker 7: Absolutely nothing?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 7: And what did the talk teach you?
Speaker 17: So that she was a first female MC coming out
Speaker 17: of Lebronx or in general, and that was interesting. I
Speaker 17: never heard her name before and for her to have
Speaker 17: such an influence on what hip hop is today and
Speaker 17: for me to never know who she is, you know,
Speaker 17: says a lot about storytelling and why it's important. So
Speaker 17: I am very happy I came out tonight.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: When you say says a lot, what do you mean?
Speaker 17: Well, you know, the narrative that goes in the media
Speaker 17: is like whoever shouts loudest gets heard. And I think
Speaker 17: she's now starting to get the props that she's due, right,
Speaker 17: And it's not because she didn't do the right things.
Speaker 17: It's just people to know who she was. So you know,
Speaker 17: you have to go to events type us to start
Speaker 17: finding out the history and the truth, and you know,
Speaker 17: reading up on things and digging deep to not just
Speaker 17: accept what's being told and you know, your mainstream media.
Speaker 3: And then something happens that wasn't on the schedule, grandmassacast,
Speaker 3: there's not a funky beat, shy hypes up the crowd.
Speaker 7: Out of nowhere. She breaks into a verse.
Speaker 9: Yo, Shot Rock, gets your own will no rock for
Speaker 9: the hot, get down for the low.
Speaker 4: Never heard the words. They call it the way because
Speaker 4: I was one of the best. I'm on the right track.
Speaker 4: When you hear a.
Speaker 9: Rock from the other female, push it to the top
Speaker 9: to get fling tail shot rock and I need to
Speaker 9: please you, don't want to get it for the fellas
Speaker 9: and the young ladies, keep my head.
Speaker 3: And then Shaw invites random fans on stage to rap
Speaker 3: with her. It's a whole snipher. Everybody's swarming the stage.
Speaker 4: Let's not brother, are you ready? Let's not a boy
Speaker 4: from the house without the County. Okay is in the house,
Speaker 4: and show the party go rock in the house.
Speaker 10: So party.
Speaker 1: Is in the house, SODA's party rock out.
Speaker 3: In this room, in the birthplace of hip hop, Shot
Speaker 3: Rock is remembered.
Speaker 1: Ready.
Speaker 4: In addition set up.
Speaker 5: The legacy isn't just about being seen, It's about how
Speaker 5: you're seeing and ultimately, who's lens the world is looking through.
Speaker 7: Someone always has something to say. Everybody has a comment
Speaker 7: on your body. It's like if you're not true, they're
Speaker 7: talking about it. If you have surgery done. They have
Speaker 7: something to say. It's just always something to say. People
Speaker 7: think it's fun. It's like, oh, let's all join in
Speaker 7: and bash on the black woman.
Speaker 17: It's something about the woman's body specifically that really triggers people.
Speaker 3: Roberts, Dream Doll, Baby Tait and Doji take us through
Speaker 3: Rule number three. Next time on Louder Than a Riot.
Speaker 5: Louder Than a Riot. It's hosted by Me, Ridney Carmartin,
Speaker 5: and Sidney Madden. This episode was written by myself, Sidney
Speaker 5: and Mono soond Rason, and it.
Speaker 3: Was produced by Manasandrasan. Our senior producer is Gaby Bargarelli and.
Speaker 5: Our producers are Sam Jay Leeds and Mono sound Rasa.
Speaker 5: Our editor is Sarria Shockley, and our engineer is Gilly Moon.
Speaker 5: Our senior supervising producer Rif Vincent. Our interns Jose Sandoval,
Speaker 5: Teresa Shia.
Speaker 3: And p Lar Galvan, and the NPR execs are Keith Jenkins,
Speaker 3: Landa Sanguinei and Anya Grandman.
Speaker 5: Original theme by Casa Overall, remix by Susie Analog, and
Speaker 5: the scoring for this episode was provided by Susie Analog
Speaker 5: and CASA Overall.
Speaker 3: Our digital editor is Jacob Gans. Our fact checkers are
Speaker 3: Sarah Knight and Jane Gilban. If you want to learn
Speaker 3: more about mc shawrock story, check out her autobiography, Luminary Icon,
Speaker 3: The story of the beginning and end of hip hop's
Speaker 3: first female MC. If you like this episode and you
Speaker 3: want to talk back, hit us up on Twitter. We're
Speaker 3: at Louder Than a Riot, and if you want to
Speaker 3: email us, it's Louder at NPR dot org. From MPR Music,
Speaker 3: I'm Sydney.
Speaker 5: Madden and I'm Rodney Carl Michael. This is Louder Than
Speaker 5: a Riot.