1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: From UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History is 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to now. Hello, 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt and 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: I and Ben. Of course we are joined as always 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: by our super producer, Noel Excellent Brown and most importantly 7 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: you're here that makes this stuff they don't want you 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: to know. But this is not like our usual episodes, right, 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: Oh No, we had a fantastic opportunity. You and I 10 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 1: got to view a documentary that has yet to come 11 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: out almost it's almost out. We got to view it 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: a little while ago. And we just got off the 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 1: phone with somebody pretty special. Yes, our special guest today 14 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: is Alex Winter. He is the director, producer, uh, the 15 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: mastermind behind the documentary Deep Web. Alex Winter may be 16 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: familiar to m of you for his acting career as well. 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: He is Bill s Preston and Bill and Ted's Excellent 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: Adventure as well as Bogus Journey. He also started Lost 19 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: Boys and UH. More recently, you will recognize his two 20 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:19,279 Speaker 1: thousand thirteen documentary Downloaded. Yes, that's the story about Napster 21 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: and Sean Fanning. Really really interesting documentary. You haven't seen it, 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: I believe if it's on Netflix, or at least it 23 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: was for a long time there. And as we put 24 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: out this podcast today on a Friday, uh, this is 25 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: the same day that Ross Olbrich, the alleged dread pirate 26 00:01:36,720 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: Roberts of the Silk Road, is being sentenced. At this time, 27 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: we have not heard what his sentence will be, but 28 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: we were fortunate enough to sit down with Alex Winter 29 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: who walked us through some of the biggest issues facing 30 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: the online community and the average citizen today. So the 31 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: first thing we want to know is how did you 32 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: get to this story? What led you to the deep Web? 33 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 1: Bud interested in online sort of growth of online communities 34 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: from the beginning, you know, from the eighties when I 35 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: first encountered them before the Web, and uh, it was 36 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: pretty evident at that time that you know, these communities 37 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: were going to have a massive impact, and that the 38 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 1: Internet in general was going to have a massive impact. 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: Um So I started investigating these communities, then eventually very 40 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,360 Speaker 1: closely tracked the Master rise and fall, and I was 41 00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: able to make a movie about that story which was Downloaded, 42 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: which was mostly looking at Master from the position of 43 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: global community and and it's and it's the implications of that. 44 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: And so frankly, when I learned about the Silk Road, 45 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,079 Speaker 1: it seemed like here was the next kind of watershed 46 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 1: moment in the kind of rise of global communities online. 47 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: This was the first scale, doable meeting. A lot of 48 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: people were using it. UM. There wasn't just a rarefied 49 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: one off with a handful of people on. It was 50 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: a scaling community. But it was anonymous, and that was new. 51 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: So it was an anonymous community in a hidden corner 52 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: of the Internet using a cryptocurrency that could be anonymized, 53 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: which is bitcoin UM. And they were it was mostly 54 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: being used for buying and selling trucks UM, and so 55 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: that seemed like a good place to um to make 56 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: a movie. And then Ross Selfrich was arrested in October, 57 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: and at that point I chose to focus the story 58 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: on on his his case specific So Matt, at this point, 59 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: we're already hitting on one of the big issues in 60 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: the Deep Web film, which is anonymity on the Internet. Right, 61 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: I think we've talked about a lot, right, Yeah, And 62 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: so we also asked Alex about this anonymity, the the 63 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: unknown things there and we who dread Pirate Roberts is 64 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: a question that a lot of people have been wondering. Right. 65 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: You know the movie is about is as much about 66 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: unknowns as it is about knowns, Right. I mean, that's 67 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: what's interesting about it is what do we know? And 68 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 1: so what I wanted to do was raise very pointed questions, 69 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: which is, how do we enforce law and tried cases 70 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: in the digital age? Um? You know, can and will 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: radical technologies change policy, including drug war policy? Um? You know, 72 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,920 Speaker 1: what is privacy today? And how um does it impact 73 00:04:40,960 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: the average citizen, you know, whether they're able to retain 74 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: privacy and then how much privacy they should retain? Um, 75 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: usual all questions that that um kind of strike at 76 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: the heart of the solkerp case. So they were you know, 77 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: questions I wanted to raise. I certainly didn't want to 78 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: answer them, and I don't believe they're actually our answers 79 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: for pretty much any of them at the moment. But 80 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: I think you're very good questions to raise. Yeah, and uh, 81 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: we agree. One of one of the things that I 82 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: had read in an earlier interview you had done was 83 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: the concept of an bitcoin and the economic ecosystem. Uh, 84 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:22,599 Speaker 1: the idea of a cryptocurrency anonymized as well. And what 85 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: we were wondering is, uh, what effect would you, um, 86 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: would you estimate that bitcoin may have in the future, 87 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: especially regarding current existing currencies. UM, I think massive. I 88 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: think cryptocurrencies, whether it's Bitcoin or some other protocol, are 89 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: are here to stay. I think they're I'm not like 90 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: a bitcoin evangelists. I'm not one of these sort of 91 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: hedge fund people that you know, believes its goal to 92 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: point oh um. But I think in a much more 93 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: mundane way, it's um. It has a lot of really 94 00:05:55,760 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: important uses micro nations that are able to circumvent putitive 95 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: fees for moving money around the world. That makes a 96 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: really big difference to your economy if you're a small nation. 97 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,919 Speaker 1: Bitcoin has really helped those economies in Africa and other places. Um. 98 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 1: You know, the need for a much more streamlined form 99 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 1: of digital currency is very useful there. And then you 100 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: get into this whole other area with the blockchain and 101 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 1: the underlying technology behind bitcoin and the blockchain as a 102 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: whole host of uses, contracts and all sorts of things 103 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: that I think are we're going to see are going 104 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: to become the engine for other technology. And so I 105 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: certainly while not thinking that bitcoin is is, you know, 106 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: it is something that makes me excited because I think 107 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: I think it's going to make me rich. I do 108 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 1: think it's it's a huge mistake to underestimate, uh, the 109 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: significant changes that are going to come as a result 110 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: of technologies like bitcoin. So one of the central issues 111 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 1: in this film are drugs, just in culture and specifically 112 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: the Silk Road, this anonymous place where you could go 113 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: and buy drugs online, and we wanted to ask Ali 114 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: how this pertains to the larger context of the war 115 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: on drugs in general. Well, I think that that technology 116 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: um is continually changing policy, you know, and you know, 117 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: the Internet is has a an ability to to speak 118 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: for large numbers of people that may not have had 119 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: a voice otherwise. So technology is the Internet is a 120 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: very good litmus test for the kind of the voice 121 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: of the people, as it were. And I think we're 122 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: seeing a lot of issues come into play because of 123 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: the Internet UM that relates to the Silk Road story. 124 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: The drug war is certainly one of them. People feel 125 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: the drug wars of failure and not four decades. It's 126 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 1: very expensive, it largely results in and filling our prisons 127 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: with non violent offenders. And there's a lot of resistance 128 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: to the drug war, and a lot of people in 129 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: the tech community believe that the Internet community believed that 130 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 1: technology can help change policy around drugs. And then there's 131 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: also privacy and anonymity tools, and it kind of growing 132 00:07:59,600 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: movement around the belief that people are too vulnerable on 133 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: the Internet and that there should be more privacy and 134 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: anonymity online that would prevent things like the Sony hack 135 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: from happening, and you know the Target and at the 136 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: Blue Cross hacks. So those are also areas where people 137 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: are taking matters into their own hands and creating technologies 138 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: so that they can help change things and give them 139 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: tools that they want. Um. As is often the case 140 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: in in sort of bleeding edge progressive or idealistic movements 141 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: like this, they're often either in direct opposition to the law, 142 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,599 Speaker 1: or ahead of the law or beyond the law. Um 143 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: And that's where we encounter with the silk growth. So 144 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: here is one of the biggest questions that here are 145 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: some of the biggest questions that people have, which is 146 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: how did Uncle Sam managed to get into the silk road. 147 00:08:55,520 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: How did they narrowed down or find Ross albrick and 148 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: what if anything to do these kinds of techniques have 149 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: to do with stuff like Operation Anymous Well, Operation anymous 150 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: was not about the Silk Road. Operation Anonymous was a 151 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: year after Ross was arrested, and it was it was 152 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:19,199 Speaker 1: it took down the second Silk Road, silk Road two 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: and the number. It was a global initiative between US 154 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: and international law enforcement agencies, and that was targeting documents 155 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: the darknet sites around the world, and the Silk Road too, um, 156 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: which was just a copycat of the first Silk Road, 157 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: just like you had Kazan lime Wire and you're telling 158 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: all these copycasts after Master went down. UM, that's what 159 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 1: that was, and that's what the Aonymous thing was. The UM. 160 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: The finding of the Silk Road servers in the case 161 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: of Silk Road one has been a matter of debate 162 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: since it was first a matter of record in the 163 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: court system. And we don't have a and fast answer 164 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: to how those servers were located, and we may never 165 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: have a hard and fast answer to how they were located, 166 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: and maybe a perfectly reasonably legal answer, it's just we 167 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: haven't been provided with one. And this UH This kind 168 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: of goes back to the earlier point you had made 169 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: about how many unknowns exist in the situation. Uh. To 170 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: go back to our question about law enforcement on the web, 171 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: one of the big questions that we and a lot 172 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: of our audience had is is it possible to enforce 173 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 1: the law in a global digital community. It's very very challenging. Um. 174 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: You know what needs to primarily happen, which I would 175 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: argue is happening, It's just happening slowly because there's an 176 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: enormous amount of bureaucracy. Is there needs to be massive 177 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: reform in search and seizure laws in the digital age? 178 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: There needs to be massive reform in the legislative process 179 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: and the constitutional process for what constants who it's appropriate? 180 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 1: Uh Uh, you know, penetration of people's um, you know 181 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: digital space and UM. That needs to happen with a 182 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: warrant and how that warrant has obtained needs to be 183 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,200 Speaker 1: worked out in a in an adequate manner. And it's 184 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: it's getting there. It's just getting there slowly. The use 185 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: changes have come very very fast, and they are very 186 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: big changes. And uh, certain aspects of law enforcement are 187 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: well ahead of the curve. Let's not forget the government 188 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: basically built the Internet. Um, and the government also paid 189 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: for a tour and the tools that created the darknet 190 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: all come from the government and government agencies. So it's 191 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: not like they're completely behind the ball. But the government 192 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: is big and it's and it's multi pronged. Right. So 193 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,360 Speaker 1: just because intelligence communities maybe really a depth in the Internet, 194 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it. Civilian law enforcement is a dept 195 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: at these technology tools. So there's like a big game 196 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: of catch up that's going on, and that's kind of 197 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: what we're watching happening. So on the day that this 198 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: podcast will go live, it's going to be this Friday, 199 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,599 Speaker 1: that's the day that Russell is going to be sentenced, 200 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: and we're reading the prosecution asked the judge to send 201 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: a message with this sentencing. Um, what what do you 202 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: think that message is going to be? You know, they 203 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: it was a very it's a very interesting thing. I mean, 204 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: I think that the prosecution is being extremely frank Frankly, 205 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: I think that you know, I was in the courtroom 206 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: for some of the trial and it was very clear 207 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 1: that their intention, you know, which many people agree with, 208 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: is to make an example of Ross and to say 209 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: to the entire darkness community and the black market community, 210 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: if you do this, you'll be punished to the fullest 211 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: extent of the law. UM. I don't think it's a 212 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: very common thing where you'll actually see the prosecution literally 213 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: say that in print. You know, you know they're thinking it, 214 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: but it was you know, interesting that they actually came 215 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: right out and said it. Um. Uh not even come 216 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: from the District attorney's office actually, but regardless, uh, you know, 217 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: it's a it's a direct proclamation, it's a declaration of 218 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: war against um, you know, the darknet markets. UM. It's 219 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,079 Speaker 1: a tricky thing, right because whatever we want to say 220 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: about Ross and what Ross did or didn't do, he 221 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: didn't create the ensuing drug markets, and he's not responsible 222 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: for what's going on um in those markets. So hopefully 223 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: the judge will not uh tack more time onto his 224 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: sentence for crimes that he didn't commit. It would be unfair. UM. 225 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: But I think that really the message underlying all of 226 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: this is just we feel we, meaning you know, the 227 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: government law enforcement, feel very threatened by rapidly evolving technologies 228 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: that we can't control. UM. We feel very threatened by 229 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: the criminality that can occur within those technologies, and because 230 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: it's very difficult for us to police that world, because 231 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: it's very difficult for us to catch people in that world. 232 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: When we do catch one, we really need to present 233 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: them to everybody and then and then make an example 234 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: out of them. And I think that's what the letter 235 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 1: is saying, So, Alex, one of the toughest things for 236 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: me in watching this documentary was seeing brouss Older's parents 237 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,920 Speaker 1: and how they reacted to the whole situation, how they're 238 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: dealing with it in in almost real time. UM, I 239 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: can't I couldn't help but feel terrible for them. I know, 240 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: I know, I agree. UM, I think that you know 241 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: for me, and I think it comes across in the 242 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: movie is I have a great deal of compassion for 243 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: Rossy's family. You know, how can you not? And they're 244 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: caught in a really, really horrible situation and they're having 245 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: to educate themselves around extremely complex ideas very quickly. UM, 246 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: how can you not have compassion for them? It doesn't 247 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: mean you side with with um one side of the other. 248 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: You know, you follow what you know, and in this case, 249 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: what we know is very little. I think that's pretty 250 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,479 Speaker 1: clear in the movie, but you can absolutely have compassion 251 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: for those people, which we did. Yeah, we we love 252 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: gray areas on this show, and that's kind of what 253 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: it's talking about. So here's another question. What do you 254 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: think that the audience of Deep Web and and our 255 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: audience at large could do to further educate themselves about 256 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: the intersection between anonymity, privacy, and government surveillance. I think 257 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: that that the very first thing that most people need 258 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: to be aware of is that their privacy is on 259 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 1: a certain level in their hands, so they should the 260 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: first thing they should do is not the cavalier about 261 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: their privacy. It's kind of like watching someone else have 262 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: a car accident and saying, well, it doesn't matter how 263 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: I drive because I'm never going to have a car accident. 264 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: And then of course you do, because we all do um. 265 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: And it takes that collision, that that that physical um, 266 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: you know, life experience to get most people to wake 267 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: up to any kind of responsibility or change. And I 268 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 1: think that, you know, the notion of having to safeguard 269 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: your digital life is so overwhelming to most people just 270 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: figured out how to get their voicemail to work, that 271 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: it just becomes something they get resigned about and I 272 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: don't think all of this is in their hands. And 273 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: the government you know, also has to work out legislation 274 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: that makes more sense. And you know, as I said before, 275 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: reformed certain seizure laws and deal with warrants and how 276 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: all of those work. And I think it is to 277 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: be a bit more, a bit more let up from 278 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: the government law enforcement side, not coming down so hard 279 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: on privacy and encryption tools, which are only going to 280 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: keep getting stronger, and God knows we need them. I mean, 281 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: if you've lived through getting hacked, I have several times 282 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: your entire life completely sucked out from under you. Um 283 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: you don't need to have that to happen to you 284 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: more than once. Before you you start using encryption tools 285 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: and privacy tools, and you start using better passwords and 286 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: a password app, and you know, maybe encrypted text and 287 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: maybe even encrypted phone, and under certain circumstances all of what, 288 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: you're easier and easier every day. UM So I would say, 289 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 1: you know, first of all, it's a it's an attitude adjustment. 290 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: It's the attitude that you know what, this notion that 291 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,359 Speaker 1: if I have nothing to hide, I have nothing to 292 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: fear is really really destructive and erroneous, and you do. 293 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: Everybody has something to hide, and you wear clothes because 294 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: you you want the privacy of of not exposing your body. 295 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: You have a door in your bathroom because you'd like 296 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: to be able to go to the bathroom in private. 297 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: I know that all sounds very flippant, but it really isn't. 298 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: I think that it's a very short step from that 299 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: kind of that sort of take it it as a 300 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: given notion of what privacy means to being a human being. 301 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: To your medical records, the photographs of your children, your 302 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: social Security number, your letter that you wrote to your 303 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: first girlfriend that's like scanned on your computer. You know, 304 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: painful family information that's gone back and forth and you 305 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: and your loved ones over the years. That those are 306 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: things that you want to hide. Fair Enough, it doesn't 307 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: mean that there's anything wrong. You're being a criminal, and 308 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 1: so you do have something to fear. You have both 309 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 1: something to find hide and something to fear. Man, Alex, 310 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: you're hitting on all these points that I was like, Okay, 311 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: here's the follow up thing. Oh no, he's getting Oh wait, 312 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,440 Speaker 1: here's a note. Oh he's getting that too. Because we 313 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: we've covered some of this, uh, some of these topics 314 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: a lot in the past, and the reaction, immediate reaction 315 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: we get from many people is that whole I got 316 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 1: nothing to hide, come on that we needed The government 317 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: needs to keep us safe and they need to know 318 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 1: so they need to know. So. Should our audience also 319 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: be concerned with private companies buying, tracking, and selling the 320 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: data of us in our audience? Yes, I think that 321 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: that is is um a very big part of the problem. 322 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 1: UM and well, I would maintain that the law enforcement 323 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: is a coming upon them to figure out how to 324 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: do their job without dismantling my privacy. It is I 325 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: can comment as well upon corporations to figure out how 326 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 1: to you know, please their showholders and make a profit 327 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,959 Speaker 1: without dismantling my private see. I think that those are 328 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: equal issues as far as the private citizens are concerned. 329 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: And these concerns bring us to a larger point a 330 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: question that we and others have continually asked, which is, 331 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: are we at some sort of Malcolm Cladwell style tipping 332 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,720 Speaker 1: point in regard to privacy for the average person? I 333 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: guess by which I mean, are we at a point 334 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: where privacy may become extinct? Or are we at a 335 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: point where there might be a new understanding or a 336 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: new widespread appreciation of privacy. Uh No, I do not 337 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: think that we are at the end of privacy. I 338 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: would actually argue the exact opposite. I think that we 339 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: are about in the in the wake of the Snowden 340 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: revelations and the Sony hack, and the Target hack and 341 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: and the poor chance happening, we are at the beginning 342 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 1: of a boom in the privacy business. We are at 343 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: the beginning of the industrialization of privacy in the digital space. 344 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 1: And it will be, it will be cheap, will be ubiquitous, 345 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 1: it will be it will be uh something that the 346 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 1: average user doesn't have to think about, and their emails 347 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: will be able to encrypt, their phones will be able 348 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: to encrypt, their text to be able to encrypt. They 349 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: wanted to think twice about it, my grandmother will do it. 350 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: Um And that's the world that we're entering. I think, 351 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: by no means are we saying good by the privacy. 352 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 1: I think that on me on the opposite extreme, I 353 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: think people are about to take their privacy back in 354 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: a very big way. Fantastic, Thank you so much for 355 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: this opportunity, and we can't wait for our listeners to 356 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,639 Speaker 1: check out the deep web. Great, thanks you guys. I 357 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Wow. Wow, that's cool man. Yeah and inspiring. Now, 358 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: just so everybody knows, Uh, I think it's it's fairly 359 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 1: clear that you and I and and maybe NOL have 360 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: a horse in the race here. Of course, because we 361 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: make our living doing shows online. So ease of access 362 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: but also privacy are personal issues. Uh, you know, we 363 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: take that concern with us when we leave the office. 364 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 1: But uh, now it's time for uh, for another interview, 365 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 1: the interview we do at the end of every show. Now. 366 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: Oh yes, no, yes, hey Noel, did you catch the 367 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: interview we just did. I did catch it. I was 368 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: sitting here the whole time. It's true. Did uh were 369 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,440 Speaker 1: there any questions that you think we we should have 370 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: asked Mr Winter? No, I don't think so. I mean, 371 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: you guys really seemed to cover it, and he had 372 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: some really interesting things to say. Yeah, and we're going 373 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: to see how this shakes out. We're probably gonna need 374 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: to do an update on on this after we hear 375 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: about the trial. Uh. So we've been dealing with some 376 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: big issues. Let's get to another Let's let's get to 377 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,479 Speaker 1: something with a little bit of lightheartedness, a little levity. 378 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 1: What do you say, man, Yeah, this is something that 379 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: Ben and I have been discussing for a long time. Now, 380 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: we've gone We've gone back and forth through emails. We've 381 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: had a bit of a twitter war. We ought to 382 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: flame war. Um oh, man, I think I think we 383 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: just need to ask. No. Well, yeah, you know. No, 384 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: you're the tiebreaker. So whenever Matt and I disagree on something, 385 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: we we come to you when we defer to your wisdom. Okay, 386 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: you do it, Matt, All right. No, you're familiar with 387 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: a euro? Yes, a euro euro? Would you consider that 388 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: a sandwich? Yeah? What? No, dude, it's a wrap. Why 389 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: do you always take his side wrap? Wrap? A wrap 390 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: fully encompasses the sandwich material. A a euro is has 391 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: a taco at best, you know, it's like half a rap. Yeah, 392 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: I still no tacos a taco, but I mean a 393 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: euro is not a rap. I feel like you guys 394 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: are persecuting me. Okay. It has all of the requirements 395 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: for a sandwich, except where some people would say there's 396 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: only one piece of bread to it. It needs to 397 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,160 Speaker 1: maybe needs to be What about an open face sandwich? 398 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: You guys, we're not going to solve this problem in 399 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,119 Speaker 1: this episode. I think we're gonna have to ask for 400 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: our listeners input, tell us your favorite kinds of sandwiches, 401 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: but more importantly, uh, let us know what you think 402 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: about privacy online. It was inspiring. Uh that's the word 403 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: I keep coming back to to talk with Alex Winter 404 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: about the future of technology, and and I was, I 405 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 1: don't know about you, Matt, but I was, UM, it 406 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: really meant a lot to me to hear a message that, um, 407 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: privacy is coming back to the people. Right. Oh yeah, Well, 408 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 1: I I don't want to get it give anything away, 409 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: but as we said before, Bennett, I got to see 410 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,239 Speaker 1: this documentary already, and there's a segment towards the end. 411 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: I won't give it away, but in interviewing some people 412 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: who are working on the very thing, that very thing 413 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 1: right now, and it's pretty pretty cool, I think. Uh, 414 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: I don't know that that made me walk away from 415 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: it with a hopeful feeling, which doesn't happen with documentaries 416 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: very often. All Right, and we hope that you enjoyed 417 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: this episode as much as we enjoyed making it. Again, 418 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: a massive thank you to Alex Winter for uh, for 419 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: giving us really a brilliant explanation. Oh yeah, all throughout 420 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: the interview. And oh and if you are interested in 421 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: seeing deep Web, you can check it out on epics 422 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: on the on May thirty one, that's Sunday. That's Sunday 423 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: as we record this. And we'd like to know what 424 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: you think. Is this, um, this big brother kind of stuff? 425 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's not even a theory, that's what 426 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: it is. Given the Snowdon revelations that Alex mentioned earlier. 427 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: Is this a necessary evil? Do world governments need this 428 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: level of scrutiny or monitoring? Right? Um, that's a tough question. Yeah, 429 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: and we'd like to hear your take on it. You 430 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: can find us on Facebook and Twitter. You can check 431 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,920 Speaker 1: out This podcast is long, as well as every other 432 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: podcast we've ever done on our website, Deep Breath w 433 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: W dot Stuff they don't want you to know dot Com. 434 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: Oh man, that was great. I've been practicing. And if 435 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: you want to skip all that stuff and just send 436 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: us an email and tell us what you think, you 437 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: can reach us. We are conspiracy at how stuff Works 438 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: dot Com. From one on this topic, another unexplained phenomenon, 439 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: visit YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff. You can also 440 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: get in touch on Twitter at the handle at conspiracy stuff.