WEBVTT - What We Get Wrong About The Teen Brain 0:00:14.996 --> 0:00:15.436 Pushkin. 0:00:30.436 --> 0:00:33.236 Bosses or business owners are like, well, let's because gen 0:00:33.356 --> 0:00:36.596 Z's too sensitive these days now, Like if you were eighteen, 0:00:36.716 --> 0:00:38.396 you would not want to be talked down to either. 0:00:38.956 --> 0:00:41.116 And I don't think young people are crazy for paying 0:00:41.156 --> 0:00:44.196 attention to the subtle ways in which they're being disrespected 0:00:44.236 --> 0:00:45.236 by authority figures. 0:00:45.796 --> 0:00:50.116 Psychology professor David Yaeger is an expert in adolescent development. 0:00:50.876 --> 0:00:53.996 He says, our cultural narrative about young people and they're 0:00:54.036 --> 0:00:57.916 developing brains is wrong, and he proposes a new framework. 0:00:58.596 --> 0:01:01.236 You can think of the adolescent brain as like this 0:01:01.356 --> 0:01:04.476 social R and D engine of our culture. Something that 0:01:04.516 --> 0:01:07.316 looks like risky and idiotic to us is maybe their 0:01:07.356 --> 0:01:12.396 way of creatively trying to solve the problem. 0:01:12.476 --> 0:01:16.036 On today's show, what the science actually says about the 0:01:16.076 --> 0:01:18.876 young mind and how we can help young people thrive. 0:01:20.516 --> 0:01:23.476 I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 0:01:23.636 --> 0:01:25.876 a show about who we are and who we become 0:01:26.116 --> 0:01:41.836 in the face of a big change. David Yeager teaches 0:01:41.876 --> 0:01:45.436 at the University of Texas at Austin. His latest book 0:01:45.556 --> 0:01:48.556 is called Ten to twenty five The Science of Motivating 0:01:48.636 --> 0:01:52.676 Young People. These days, there are so many tropes circulating 0:01:52.756 --> 0:01:55.756 about young people. I wanted to talk to a scientist 0:01:55.796 --> 0:01:58.276 so we can learn the facts and together form the 0:01:58.396 --> 0:02:01.636 right cultural narrative. It turns out that we have a 0:02:01.636 --> 0:02:06.196 lot of misconceptions. It's true that young people's brains are underdeveloped, 0:02:06.276 --> 0:02:08.956 but that's not the only factor behind their decision making. 0:02:09.476 --> 0:02:13.316 It's also because they have different goals than adults. David 0:02:13.476 --> 0:02:15.956 argues that if we can better understand these goals, we 0:02:15.996 --> 0:02:19.996 can help bridge the gap between adults and adolescents. And so, 0:02:20.076 --> 0:02:22.476 if you've ever wondered how to better support the young 0:02:22.516 --> 0:02:25.556 people in your life, or if you're a young person 0:02:25.716 --> 0:02:28.756 wondering why on earth older people just can't seem to 0:02:28.836 --> 0:02:33.996 understand you, David has answers for you today. Because David 0:02:34.036 --> 0:02:36.716 is such an advocate for young people, I started our 0:02:36.756 --> 0:02:40.316 conversation by asking what his experience was like in school 0:02:40.356 --> 0:02:41.476 when he was a little kid. 0:02:42.316 --> 0:02:44.556 I mostly remember feeling like I was about to be 0:02:44.556 --> 0:02:47.316 in trouble because I was like super energetic and I 0:02:47.356 --> 0:02:50.676 was doing a million things. And in school, they want 0:02:50.716 --> 0:02:53.076 you to sit in a desk and turn in worksheets 0:02:53.076 --> 0:02:54.836 on time, and I wasn't that interested in. 0:02:55.276 --> 0:02:56.196 Turning things on time. 0:02:56.236 --> 0:03:00.116 And I was more interested in, I don't know, asking questions, 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:03.636 but also trying to make people laugh in the class, 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:06.756 and so it was fun for other kids in the class, 0:03:07.196 --> 0:03:08.996 but not that fun for the teachers. 0:03:09.596 --> 0:03:14.036 I wonder whether your experience as a kid did inform 0:03:14.156 --> 0:03:16.916 the work you ultimately explored as a psychologist, which was 0:03:17.796 --> 0:03:22.356 your focus on young people ages ten to twenty five, Like, 0:03:23.236 --> 0:03:28.076 is there a connection between your personal experience and ultimately 0:03:28.116 --> 0:03:30.476 being interested in this age group? 0:03:31.236 --> 0:03:31.556 Yeah? 0:03:31.796 --> 0:03:34.716 So I would say that the the two weeks of 0:03:34.756 --> 0:03:36.596 the year I liked the most were my two weeks 0:03:36.636 --> 0:03:41.316 at summer camp. And it was mainly because finally adults 0:03:41.476 --> 0:03:43.316 liked me and thought I brought something to the table 0:03:43.756 --> 0:03:49.156 and I wanted to like figure out what they what 0:03:49.196 --> 0:03:51.476 did they do, like how did they treat me? And 0:03:51.516 --> 0:03:54.276 it was usually by like inspiring me and expecting me 0:03:54.316 --> 0:03:55.956 to do something that was harder than I thought I 0:03:55.956 --> 0:03:59.236 could do. And a camp, it's mundane stuff like jumping 0:03:59.236 --> 0:04:01.596 off the top of a telephone pole and grabbing rings, 0:04:01.996 --> 0:04:04.716 you know, two stories up. So you're facing your fears 0:04:05.316 --> 0:04:08.076 and you are think you're going to die, but there's 0:04:08.076 --> 0:04:11.876 a supportive adult below you and they're cheering you on, 0:04:12.476 --> 0:04:14.156 but you're the one who has to jump. The adult 0:04:14.156 --> 0:04:17.076 does not jump for you. Like that's also a metaphor 0:04:17.196 --> 0:04:19.556 for a lot of life that you have to climb 0:04:19.636 --> 0:04:23.396 up to something like metaphorically scary and jump on your own. 0:04:24.116 --> 0:04:26.436 But you've got adults around there, and if you do it, 0:04:26.716 --> 0:04:29.476 they're stoked for you. They're like that kicked ass. That's 0:04:29.516 --> 0:04:33.196 so awesome. And I guess if you wanted to bottle 0:04:33.316 --> 0:04:36.156 something about my program of research, it's like, how do 0:04:36.196 --> 0:04:40.036 we make more adults be that kind of person where again, 0:04:40.036 --> 0:04:41.836 you're not doing it for the kid. The kid has 0:04:41.836 --> 0:04:44.916 to jump, but you're supportive enough that they feel enough 0:04:44.956 --> 0:04:47.196 safety to take a risk that's beyond what they thought 0:04:47.196 --> 0:04:47.676 they could do. 0:04:48.036 --> 0:04:51.516 Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, we were all 0:04:51.636 --> 0:04:54.956 kids once and yet somehow when we become adults, we 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:59.276 just feel this immediate disconnect with young people. Like what 0:04:59.316 --> 0:05:04.076 do you think is is it just skillful amnesia? Why 0:05:04.156 --> 0:05:07.196 is that we're forgetting as adults. We always think when 0:05:07.236 --> 0:05:09.316 we're growing up, I'll never be like my parents as 0:05:09.316 --> 0:05:12.236 a teenager, like I'll never talk to my teenage kid 0:05:12.236 --> 0:05:13.836 and the way my parents are talking to me. And 0:05:13.876 --> 0:05:15.836 then we all do the same thing, right. 0:05:16.236 --> 0:05:17.396 I think it's a. 0:05:17.396 --> 0:05:20.556 Really profound question, and I don't think we have an open, 0:05:20.636 --> 0:05:23.796 shut answer, but I think about it a lot. One 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:29.276 hypothesis is that our cultural narrative about young people like 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:32.836 selectively influences our memory of us when we were young, 0:05:33.116 --> 0:05:36.196 and our cultural narrative is you do dumb stuff that 0:05:36.316 --> 0:05:37.956 you're later embarrassed by that. 0:05:38.036 --> 0:05:39.596 Was, you know, not wise. 0:05:39.796 --> 0:05:42.436 So if you talk to someone about their college years 0:05:42.836 --> 0:05:44.676 and now they're thirty and forty, they're like, well, we 0:05:45.316 --> 0:05:47.436 would to this party and got super drunk, or we 0:05:47.996 --> 0:05:50.316 you know, when on this crazy road trip and that 0:05:50.396 --> 0:05:52.876 was irresponsible, or you know, people tell stories about how 0:05:52.876 --> 0:05:55.676 you're responsible they were in a given age group, as 0:05:55.716 --> 0:06:00.356 though the college years, for example, are years where you're 0:06:00.676 --> 0:06:04.956 an idiot, And then we can't access that feeling of 0:06:05.796 --> 0:06:10.276 like indignation when you're mistreated, or humiliation if you've like 0:06:10.596 --> 0:06:13.036 bombed in front of people whose opinions you care about, 0:06:13.156 --> 0:06:16.636 or the thrill of pride for impressing someone who you 0:06:16.716 --> 0:06:19.836 cared about, and we're stuck in this older view of 0:06:20.076 --> 0:06:21.436 we were idiots when we were young. 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:25.836 Yeah, you talked about this cultural narrative that we have 0:06:26.036 --> 0:06:29.596 around young people. The counter to that is the biological narrative. Right, 0:06:29.956 --> 0:06:35.516 we have a pretty pervasive misconception about young people's brains. 0:06:35.676 --> 0:06:38.076 And I'm wondering if you can tell me a bit 0:06:38.076 --> 0:06:38.676 more about that. 0:06:39.276 --> 0:06:41.436 Let me just come into this anecdotally. So my wife 0:06:41.516 --> 0:06:44.236 is a pediatric nurse and at some point she moved 0:06:44.236 --> 0:06:46.996 over to the neuphrology clinic and it's wonderful clinic. They're 0:06:46.996 --> 0:06:50.916 the best at kidney transplants for kids. And I talked 0:06:50.916 --> 0:06:54.516 to the one of the doctors and he's like, look, 0:06:54.556 --> 0:06:57.836 these kids are not taking their meds, and it's a 0:06:57.876 --> 0:07:01.796 problem because if you don't take the anti rejection matter 0:07:02.076 --> 0:07:04.756 more medicines like that, then your body rejects the kidney 0:07:04.796 --> 0:07:07.396 in like two days. And so it's a huge problem 0:07:07.436 --> 0:07:09.876 because then you go on dialysis and no one wants that, 0:07:09.916 --> 0:07:12.956 and it's miserable. But also you've wasted a kidney and 0:07:12.996 --> 0:07:14.796 it's so rare and hard to get a kidney, and 0:07:14.836 --> 0:07:18.596 it's a huge issue. And the doctor I talked to, 0:07:18.876 --> 0:07:22.316 who was a wonderful person, said, I cannot fathom what 0:07:22.356 --> 0:07:26.236 they're thinking. It's like they just don't have a prefernal cortex. 0:07:26.276 --> 0:07:29.556 They just cannot think about the consequences of their actions. 0:07:30.116 --> 0:07:32.636 We can't trust them or rely on them. And then 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:35.956 he concludes by saying, asking a teenager to remember to 0:07:35.956 --> 0:07:39.196 take their medicine when they lack a prefernal cortex is 0:07:39.236 --> 0:07:41.756 like asking someone with no biceps or triceps to do 0:07:41.796 --> 0:07:42.316 push ups. 0:07:43.196 --> 0:07:45.116 And I fully see where this. 0:07:45.076 --> 0:07:47.796 Is coming from. And he had seen a talk on 0:07:48.116 --> 0:07:51.756 the latest supposed neuroscience of adolescence and it's making its 0:07:51.756 --> 0:07:54.036 way out there and lots of important settings where the 0:07:54.036 --> 0:07:57.516 punchline is teenagers lack of prefernal cortex and therefore we 0:07:57.556 --> 0:08:00.836 can't trust them to do anything. I call that the 0:08:00.916 --> 0:08:04.436 neurobiological incompetence model. That the main contribution of it is, 0:08:04.476 --> 0:08:07.596 to say, teenagers' brains because of a combination of the 0:08:07.636 --> 0:08:12.996 explosion of hormones combined with under development of the prefrontal regions, 0:08:13.556 --> 0:08:16.276 leads to this all gas, no breaks mentality that they're 0:08:16.316 --> 0:08:19.356 just impulsively following whatever desire they want and not thinking 0:08:19.356 --> 0:08:23.676 about the future. And that idea is out there now 0:08:23.716 --> 0:08:27.196 and it's kind of been codified in neuroscience and there's 0:08:27.236 --> 0:08:30.156 a reason why they did that, and the reason was 0:08:30.316 --> 0:08:35.476 around criminal justice. Teenagers who committed serious crimes like violent crimes, 0:08:35.876 --> 0:08:38.556 were being sentenced to life without parole or the death penalty, 0:08:39.076 --> 0:08:42.996 because the argument went, if they were so evil that 0:08:43.036 --> 0:08:46.356 they could commit these heinous crimes even while fourteen fifteen sixteen, 0:08:46.436 --> 0:08:48.596 then they would only get worse, or they certainly wouldn't 0:08:48.596 --> 0:08:50.996 get better, so better to not have them in our society. 0:08:51.036 --> 0:08:53.156 These are like the bad apples. Let's get rid of them. 0:08:53.756 --> 0:08:56.636 And what the neuroscientists argued is that actually you're still changing. 0:08:56.716 --> 0:08:58.996 We don't know that you're stuck being an evil, heinous 0:08:59.036 --> 0:09:03.076 monster for life at fourteen fifteen sixteen because you're highly 0:09:03.156 --> 0:09:09.236 sensitive to impulses because your brain is incompetent, basically, and 0:09:09.556 --> 0:09:11.716 they successfully argue to the Supreme Court in a very 0:09:11.716 --> 0:09:14.476 important way that at huge justice consequences and I would 0:09:14.476 --> 0:09:16.956 no way diminish the contribution. 0:09:16.556 --> 0:09:17.116 Of that work. 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:20.436 But very soon that argument is used to say, well, 0:09:20.476 --> 0:09:23.916 teenagers shouldn't have control over their sex lives or their contraception, 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:26.396 or they shouldn't be asked, you know, to think about 0:09:26.436 --> 0:09:32.676 politics or to lobby against the gun policies. You're just 0:09:32.676 --> 0:09:36.716 an idiotic teenager who doesn't understand the future and what 0:09:36.876 --> 0:09:39.956 I'd want to argue is that if we start from 0:09:39.956 --> 0:09:44.676 that incompetence model, then so many other problematic ways of 0:09:44.716 --> 0:09:46.956 interacting with young people make sense to us, and we 0:09:46.996 --> 0:09:50.236 do them almost by default. For instance, if we view 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:52.596 young people as a problem that's about to get out 0:09:52.596 --> 0:09:56.156 of control, then we need to use very strong punishments 0:09:56.236 --> 0:09:58.596 or rewards to control their behavior and kind of save 0:09:58.636 --> 0:10:01.036 them from themselves. And also if we view them as 0:10:01.036 --> 0:10:05.796 incompetent and therefore incapable of doing anything impressive, then we 0:10:05.796 --> 0:10:08.036 shouldn't ask them to do anything. We need to protect them, 0:10:08.036 --> 0:10:10.356 in fact, from the stresses of the world until their 0:10:10.356 --> 0:10:14.236 brains are fully cooked. And I think when adults behave 0:10:14.316 --> 0:10:19.236 in those ways, though young people rebel, They field looked 0:10:19.236 --> 0:10:21.356 down on. They feel like I felt as a kid. 0:10:21.916 --> 0:10:24.116 And I want to argue that the incompetence model is 0:10:24.156 --> 0:10:27.196 not fixed reality, that the science is a little more complicated, 0:10:27.596 --> 0:10:28.996 and that there's a different way to look at it. 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:30.876 And if you look at it that different way, then 0:10:31.116 --> 0:10:33.756 a different set of behaviors for the adults make sense. 0:10:33.876 --> 0:10:36.916 And those behaviors I think can lead us to engage 0:10:36.956 --> 0:10:38.076 young people more effectively. 0:10:38.876 --> 0:10:41.556 And what is that different way so help us update 0:10:41.596 --> 0:10:43.956 our mental models like, how should we think about the 0:10:43.996 --> 0:10:45.076 young adult brain? 0:10:45.756 --> 0:10:50.276 Yeah, so the brain is continuing to develop in many 0:10:50.316 --> 0:10:54.636 cases until the mid to late twenties. So Audrona Galvaan 0:10:54.716 --> 0:10:57.556 who's at UCLA, is a well known neuroscientist, and she 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:02.756 describes the changes as basically sensitizing the brain to social 0:11:02.996 --> 0:11:09.356 experiences and emotions like shame, pride, humiliation, earning, prestige, things 0:11:09.436 --> 0:11:13.676 like that, and Aedrona's catchphrases like the prefrontal region is 0:11:13.716 --> 0:11:16.436 for goal directed behavior, and teenagers are great at goal 0:11:16.516 --> 0:11:19.676 directed behavior, it's just not the goals that adults often 0:11:19.756 --> 0:11:23.276 want them to be doing. So adults want them to 0:11:23.316 --> 0:11:25.996 factor endless worksheets of trino meals and stead quietly in 0:11:26.036 --> 0:11:28.716 their desks, right, But kids are like, I want to 0:11:28.756 --> 0:11:34.236 look awesome. Yeah, And so the adults are saying, you're 0:11:34.236 --> 0:11:37.116 not thinking about the future in your income, but it's 0:11:37.116 --> 0:11:40.036 because they're saying factor trino meals now, so that next 0:11:40.076 --> 0:11:42.156 year you can get into geometry, and eventually you'll get 0:11:42.156 --> 0:11:44.276 into calculus, so you could get into a good college, 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:45.876 and then you can get a good job so that 0:11:45.916 --> 0:11:48.516 by your thirties you can barely afford a mortgage and 0:11:48.556 --> 0:11:50.756 it's like, that's not a compelling argument for a lot 0:11:50.756 --> 0:11:53.756 of young people. But it doesn't mean that they're incapable 0:11:53.836 --> 0:11:56.596 of thinking about the future or planning ahead. They're great 0:11:56.596 --> 0:11:59.236 at planning ahead. For instance, just look at any kid 0:11:59.236 --> 0:12:00.556 who wants to sneak out of the house to go 0:12:00.636 --> 0:12:01.196 to a party. 0:12:01.756 --> 0:12:03.356 They're like, who do I have to lie to? 0:12:03.676 --> 0:12:03.756 Like? 0:12:03.836 --> 0:12:04.516 Who do I like? 0:12:04.596 --> 0:12:07.276 What? They're laying traps weeks in advance. They've got like 0:12:07.316 --> 0:12:09.676 a map of the sewers, like they're they thought. 0:12:09.556 --> 0:12:12.236 Their siblings into it. They're bartering like I'll keep your 0:12:12.236 --> 0:12:13.556 secret if you keep my secret. 0:12:13.636 --> 0:12:14.356 It's elaborate. 0:12:15.076 --> 0:12:18.396 And but that's the negative example or just the po 0:12:18.796 --> 0:12:20.996 this summer was the Olympics and how many of our 0:12:21.036 --> 0:12:25.116 heroes were like fifteen year olds that clearly displayed tons 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:28.316 of self control and strategic behavior over time in order 0:12:28.356 --> 0:12:30.676 to develop valued skills that would be useful in the future. 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:34.996 So once you realize what Audrina and the rest of 0:12:35.036 --> 0:12:37.956 the Center on the Developing Adolescent has been arguing, then 0:12:37.956 --> 0:12:40.196 you realize the real task is to figure out what 0:12:40.236 --> 0:12:42.636 do they want to direct their attention to? What are 0:12:42.636 --> 0:12:46.276 those sets of goals that will capture their attention. It's 0:12:46.356 --> 0:12:49.876 the experiences of status and respect. But it's not just 0:12:49.876 --> 0:12:54.636 like frivolous stuff. It's the deep, meaningful sense that you 0:12:54.996 --> 0:12:58.116 can make a contribution and that other people who are 0:12:58.436 --> 0:13:00.956 judging you and who you care, that they're judging you, 0:13:01.516 --> 0:13:05.596 that they think you have value. That's what status and 0:13:05.636 --> 0:13:10.476 respect is. And you don't just get that by virtue 0:13:10.476 --> 0:13:12.356 of the days going by. It's something you have to 0:13:12.396 --> 0:13:16.676 earn in front of others, and so often that means 0:13:16.716 --> 0:13:19.116 doing something that's a little bold and a little risky 0:13:19.196 --> 0:13:19.996 and a little hard. 0:13:20.916 --> 0:13:24.756 So given this, David, take me back to that scenario 0:13:24.916 --> 0:13:29.996 involving the teenagers with kidney transplants who weren't taking their medications. 0:13:31.116 --> 0:13:32.796 What were their doctors getting wrong? 0:13:33.476 --> 0:13:36.836 There are two social things that they've generally failed to consider. 0:13:36.956 --> 0:13:37.396 I learned. 0:13:38.036 --> 0:13:42.276 One is why the young person would not want to 0:13:42.316 --> 0:13:46.236 take their meds. And the adults think, if only we 0:13:46.316 --> 0:13:49.556 explain the consequences of your behavior more clearly, then you 0:13:49.556 --> 0:13:52.476 would come around. Adults are almost like if an American 0:13:52.876 --> 0:13:55.836 doesn't speak a foreign language, goes overseas and then they 0:13:55.876 --> 0:13:58.556 can't talk to someone in like Italian or whatever, and 0:13:58.596 --> 0:14:00.236 then they just yell English louder. 0:14:00.356 --> 0:14:00.836 Yeah, at that. 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:03.116 Person slower, as though that will make a difference. 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:07.676 Yeah, Like that's that's most doctors, nurses, parents approach to 0:14:07.876 --> 0:14:12.276 teenagers when they don't their medical advice. And that is 0:14:12.316 --> 0:14:17.076 a social experience because it is disrespectful. You're talking down 0:14:17.076 --> 0:14:20.156 to them. It humiliating for the young person, and that 0:14:20.836 --> 0:14:23.956 that means they're not being afforded respect as an adult 0:14:24.036 --> 0:14:28.516 like person who's contributing. The second thing, though, is that 0:14:29.356 --> 0:14:31.916 I heard this from a lot of kids. Before you 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:34.596 have your kidney, you feel very different and weird because 0:14:34.636 --> 0:14:37.276 you have to go to dialysis all the time, and 0:14:37.356 --> 0:14:41.236 so you're like, I mean it's like biblical, you know, 0:14:41.516 --> 0:14:43.756 kind of like you're out in the desert alone, you know, 0:14:43.836 --> 0:14:45.436 a day of the week, two days out of the 0:14:45.436 --> 0:14:50.436 week where you're just ostracized from your community. And once 0:14:50.436 --> 0:14:52.276 they get the kidney, they don't have to do that anymore, 0:14:52.436 --> 0:14:55.316 and so they're like making up for lost time of 0:14:55.316 --> 0:14:58.916 feeling like a normal person around their friends. And so 0:14:59.516 --> 0:15:04.196 if they go like to the beach and bring enough 0:15:04.196 --> 0:15:07.756 meds for one day, but all the other friends are like, 0:15:07.756 --> 0:15:10.956 we're going to stay at extra night and say some 0:15:11.036 --> 0:15:14.036 kids are like Okay, I'm not driving back to Oakland 0:15:14.156 --> 0:15:15.916 to go get my other dose. These are like real 0:15:15.996 --> 0:15:18.476 stories from Stanford patients, and. 0:15:19.956 --> 0:15:20.636 Like you get it. 0:15:20.916 --> 0:15:23.476 I mean like they have to choose between listening to 0:15:23.516 --> 0:15:25.316 the grown ups who talked down to them and yelled 0:15:25.356 --> 0:15:28.236 at them and treated them like a child and think 0:15:28.276 --> 0:15:31.796 that they have no proofernal cortex, or hang out with 0:15:31.836 --> 0:15:33.876 the cool people who are treating them like a normal 0:15:33.916 --> 0:15:36.116 kid for the first time in their lives. Or a 0:15:36.196 --> 0:15:39.156 related thing is especially if kids have steroids that they 0:15:39.156 --> 0:15:41.596 have to take. The pills are huge, so the kids 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:44.156 would have like two fistfuls of steroid pills bulging in 0:15:44.196 --> 0:15:46.636 their pockets, and you're at a party with your friends, 0:15:47.356 --> 0:15:51.196 and if you take those, first of all that you 0:15:51.236 --> 0:15:54.356 can't drink, you also get bad breath, you get like 0:15:54.396 --> 0:15:57.876 a rectile problems. So like you already feel weird that 0:15:57.876 --> 0:16:00.756 you have two pocketfuls of steroid pills, but then you're 0:16:00.756 --> 0:16:03.196 basically like taking away a lot of stuff you want 0:16:03.196 --> 0:16:05.556 to do at a party, which is like talk closely 0:16:05.596 --> 0:16:08.196 to someone with the opposite sex and make out and 0:16:08.236 --> 0:16:10.436 all these other things. And so again you have to 0:16:10.516 --> 0:16:14.116 choose between listening to grown ups. But with social death 0:16:14.516 --> 0:16:18.076 or threat of physical death, but social life. And so 0:16:18.236 --> 0:16:20.876 you can think of the adolescent brain as like this 0:16:20.996 --> 0:16:24.116 social R and D engine of our culture. Something that 0:16:24.156 --> 0:16:26.956 looks like risky and idiotic to us is maybe their 0:16:26.996 --> 0:16:30.076 way of creatively trying to solve the problem of having 0:16:30.356 --> 0:16:32.836 more of the thing that brings you social success and 0:16:32.916 --> 0:16:35.996 fewer of the things that bring you social failure. But 0:16:36.116 --> 0:16:40.396 because every generation has its own microculture of what counts 0:16:40.436 --> 0:16:45.116 for status, you don't want a brain that decides too 0:16:45.156 --> 0:16:49.476 early to only do one kind of behavior to gain status. 0:16:49.676 --> 0:16:53.556 Because in our culture, things are changing so fast, right, professionally, 0:16:53.676 --> 0:16:57.396 socially in terms of big ideas or crises that we're facing. 0:16:58.076 --> 0:17:02.236 So it's not underdeveloped, it's that it's still adapting to 0:17:02.476 --> 0:17:06.396 the complex and ambiguous and ever changing environment that we're in. 0:17:06.996 --> 0:17:10.396 That it is underdeveloped, right some dimensions. 0:17:10.676 --> 0:17:13.636 You're right, There are some areas in which just basic, 0:17:13.756 --> 0:17:16.436 exactly basic decision making stuff is less developed. 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:18.836 The reason, sorry, the reason I'm pushing on this is 0:17:18.876 --> 0:17:22.436 I don't want listeners to leave this conversation thinking, Ah, 0:17:22.476 --> 0:17:25.596 their prefunal courteses are basically the same as ours in 0:17:25.676 --> 0:17:27.476 terms of what they're capable of and so we can 0:17:27.676 --> 0:17:31.396 entirely ascribe differences to what their goals are, because I 0:17:31.396 --> 0:17:34.756 think that would almost create unfairly high standards for the 0:17:34.796 --> 0:17:35.476 young adult brain. 0:17:35.716 --> 0:17:35.876 Right. 0:17:36.076 --> 0:17:38.916 The bad version of that is young people are as 0:17:38.956 --> 0:17:41.756 capable of great decision making as every adult, and so 0:17:41.916 --> 0:17:44.516 if they make a bad decision, it's because they didn't 0:17:44.556 --> 0:17:46.436 want to and therefore they are bad people. 0:17:46.716 --> 0:17:47.916 Yeah, or they don't care. 0:17:48.116 --> 0:17:50.156 Or they had, you know, goals that we would see 0:17:50.276 --> 0:17:51.956 deemed superficial or whatever. 0:17:52.156 --> 0:17:55.076 Right, You're absolutely right that the meta narrative of they're 0:17:55.116 --> 0:17:57.196 just as smart as every other adult and therefore they're 0:17:57.236 --> 0:18:01.236 to blame if they make a dumb decision is problematic 0:18:01.276 --> 0:18:04.156 because then we would end up condemning lots of kids, 0:18:04.196 --> 0:18:05.436 which is what we're trying to avoid. 0:18:06.196 --> 0:18:08.836 You know, the premise of your book, David, is if 0:18:08.836 --> 0:18:11.636 we can better empathize with what's going on in the 0:18:12.276 --> 0:18:15.956 young mind, then we can also understand how to better 0:18:15.996 --> 0:18:18.156 engage with that young mind, right in ways that just 0:18:18.276 --> 0:18:21.436 lead to better outcomes. Right, This is not just a 0:18:21.476 --> 0:18:24.596 principled stance. This is about trying to just get better 0:18:24.636 --> 0:18:26.276 outcomes for all parties involved. 0:18:26.316 --> 0:18:28.556 Right, Yeah, make your life easier, that's totally fine with me. 0:18:28.716 --> 0:18:31.756 Fewer fights with your kid actually get to do their homework. Whatever, 0:18:31.796 --> 0:18:36.316 the thing is, right, So tell me about what you 0:18:36.396 --> 0:18:38.756 consider to be a good way and a bad way 0:18:38.876 --> 0:18:40.636 to deliver feedback to a kid. 0:18:41.156 --> 0:18:44.516 Yeah, so there's We wanted to do a study where 0:18:45.116 --> 0:18:49.356 in one condition, you talk to a young adult in 0:18:49.396 --> 0:18:53.476 a way that's disrespectful, and in another condition, talk to 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:56.676 them in a way that's respectful, and see if their 0:18:56.796 --> 0:19:00.996 rates of taking their medicine are higher in the respectful group. 0:19:01.916 --> 0:19:05.276 And we pick medicine apart because of the adherence issues 0:19:05.316 --> 0:19:07.516 I described, but also because I think it's a good 0:19:07.516 --> 0:19:09.116 stand in for a lot of other things where adult, 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:11.316 you know, asking you to do your homework is more 0:19:11.356 --> 0:19:13.796 or less like saying take your medicine. But the thing is, 0:19:13.796 --> 0:19:18.076 you can't do a study with actual kidney transplant patients, 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:20.196 and so we had to make up a medicine that's 0:19:20.236 --> 0:19:24.236 plausibly useful but not actually harmful if you don't take it, 0:19:24.276 --> 0:19:27.196 but needs to be inconvenient and unpleasant. And so the 0:19:27.276 --> 0:19:30.876 medicine we use in our study was a spoonful of vegemite, 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:35.476 which is the Australian supplement. It's like if you brewed 0:19:35.476 --> 0:19:37.116 a barrel of beer and there was a bunch of 0:19:37.236 --> 0:19:40.036 yeast at the bottom and then you put that on toast. 0:19:40.116 --> 0:19:41.116 So that's vegemite. 0:19:41.116 --> 0:19:43.716 And just to clarify, is the vegemite being framed as 0:19:43.756 --> 0:19:46.516 something that is healthy, like it's going to help their nutrition. 0:19:46.596 --> 0:19:47.676 Yeah, we didn't tell what was VEGEMI. 0:19:47.756 --> 0:19:49.836 We were like, this is a new nutritional supplement that 0:19:49.876 --> 0:19:52.036 could be healthy for you, but also as a part 0:19:52.076 --> 0:19:53.476 of an experiment, we're studying it. 0:19:53.836 --> 0:19:57.516 Yeah, so what was respectful versus non respectful language? 0:19:57.756 --> 0:19:59.676 So people try the vegemite, they realized the don't like it, 0:19:59.716 --> 0:20:01.236 and then and then they watch a video and in 0:20:01.276 --> 0:20:04.156 the disrespectful condition, which we wrote with real doctors, we're like, 0:20:04.196 --> 0:20:06.116 what do you guys say to people? And it's things 0:20:06.196 --> 0:20:07.956 like I'm a doctor, so I know what's good for you, 0:20:08.396 --> 0:20:11.036 and if you want to do the right thing, then 0:20:11.036 --> 0:20:13.676 you'll listen to me and you'll take this medicine. They'd 0:20:13.716 --> 0:20:16.596 say things like it has an unpleasant taste, try to 0:20:16.636 --> 0:20:20.836 ignore that. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. In general, 0:20:21.036 --> 0:20:24.636 it diminishes the young person, treats them as though they 0:20:24.676 --> 0:20:27.956 don't have agency, Like it doesn't like respect their thinking 0:20:28.076 --> 0:20:30.796 or decision making, and then in the respectful condition, we 0:20:30.876 --> 0:20:33.676 tell them I think you're gonna understand the real reason 0:20:33.716 --> 0:20:35.796 why we want you to do this. Let me explain 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:38.876 it to you. So they explain the real rationale. We 0:20:38.956 --> 0:20:41.596 say things like it's got an unpleasant taste. Try to 0:20:41.596 --> 0:20:43.556 think of that as you doing your part to help 0:20:43.596 --> 0:20:46.476 others and yourself for the future can help science, and 0:20:46.476 --> 0:20:49.156 then once we have science, then science will help the world. 0:20:49.316 --> 0:20:53.116 So kind of framing the unpleasantness as a sign of 0:20:53.196 --> 0:20:57.036 respect and contribution. And then we grant agencies so like, 0:20:57.156 --> 0:20:59.316 I hope you might consider this rather than you should 0:20:59.396 --> 0:21:02.596 do this, and we say, you know, thanks for considering it. 0:21:02.636 --> 0:21:06.076 Stuff like that, And we find pretty important differences in 0:21:06.116 --> 0:21:09.636