1 00:00:14,996 --> 00:00:15,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:30,436 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 2: Bosses or business owners are like, well, let's because gen 3 00:00:33,356 --> 00:00:36,596 Speaker 2: Z's too sensitive these days now, Like if you were eighteen, 4 00:00:36,716 --> 00:00:38,396 Speaker 2: you would not want to be talked down to either. 5 00:00:38,956 --> 00:00:41,116 Speaker 2: And I don't think young people are crazy for paying 6 00:00:41,156 --> 00:00:44,196 Speaker 2: attention to the subtle ways in which they're being disrespected 7 00:00:44,236 --> 00:00:45,236 Speaker 2: by authority figures. 8 00:00:45,796 --> 00:00:50,116 Speaker 1: Psychology professor David Yaeger is an expert in adolescent development. 9 00:00:50,876 --> 00:00:53,996 Speaker 1: He says, our cultural narrative about young people and they're 10 00:00:54,036 --> 00:00:57,916 Speaker 1: developing brains is wrong, and he proposes a new framework. 11 00:00:58,596 --> 00:01:01,236 Speaker 2: You can think of the adolescent brain as like this 12 00:01:01,356 --> 00:01:04,476 Speaker 2: social R and D engine of our culture. Something that 13 00:01:04,516 --> 00:01:07,316 Speaker 2: looks like risky and idiotic to us is maybe their 14 00:01:07,356 --> 00:01:12,396 Speaker 2: way of creatively trying to solve the problem. 15 00:01:12,476 --> 00:01:16,036 Speaker 1: On today's show, what the science actually says about the 16 00:01:16,076 --> 00:01:18,876 Speaker 1: young mind and how we can help young people thrive. 17 00:01:20,516 --> 00:01:23,476 Speaker 1: I'm Maya Shunker and this is a slight change of plans, 18 00:01:23,636 --> 00:01:25,876 Speaker 1: a show about who we are and who we become 19 00:01:26,116 --> 00:01:41,836 Speaker 1: in the face of a big change. David Yeager teaches 20 00:01:41,876 --> 00:01:45,436 Speaker 1: at the University of Texas at Austin. His latest book 21 00:01:45,556 --> 00:01:48,556 Speaker 1: is called Ten to twenty five The Science of Motivating 22 00:01:48,636 --> 00:01:52,676 Speaker 1: Young People. These days, there are so many tropes circulating 23 00:01:52,756 --> 00:01:55,756 Speaker 1: about young people. I wanted to talk to a scientist 24 00:01:55,796 --> 00:01:58,276 Speaker 1: so we can learn the facts and together form the 25 00:01:58,396 --> 00:02:01,636 Speaker 1: right cultural narrative. It turns out that we have a 26 00:02:01,636 --> 00:02:06,196 Speaker 1: lot of misconceptions. It's true that young people's brains are underdeveloped, 27 00:02:06,276 --> 00:02:08,956 Speaker 1: but that's not the only factor behind their decision making. 28 00:02:09,476 --> 00:02:13,316 Speaker 1: It's also because they have different goals than adults. David 29 00:02:13,476 --> 00:02:15,956 Speaker 1: argues that if we can better understand these goals, we 30 00:02:15,996 --> 00:02:19,996 Speaker 1: can help bridge the gap between adults and adolescents. And so, 31 00:02:20,076 --> 00:02:22,476 Speaker 1: if you've ever wondered how to better support the young 32 00:02:22,516 --> 00:02:25,556 Speaker 1: people in your life, or if you're a young person 33 00:02:25,716 --> 00:02:28,756 Speaker 1: wondering why on earth older people just can't seem to 34 00:02:28,836 --> 00:02:33,996 Speaker 1: understand you, David has answers for you today. Because David 35 00:02:34,036 --> 00:02:36,716 Speaker 1: is such an advocate for young people, I started our 36 00:02:36,756 --> 00:02:40,316 Speaker 1: conversation by asking what his experience was like in school 37 00:02:40,356 --> 00:02:41,476 Speaker 1: when he was a little kid. 38 00:02:42,316 --> 00:02:44,556 Speaker 2: I mostly remember feeling like I was about to be 39 00:02:44,556 --> 00:02:47,316 Speaker 2: in trouble because I was like super energetic and I 40 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:50,676 Speaker 2: was doing a million things. And in school, they want 41 00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:53,076 Speaker 2: you to sit in a desk and turn in worksheets 42 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:54,836 Speaker 2: on time, and I wasn't that interested in. 43 00:02:55,276 --> 00:02:56,196 Speaker 3: Turning things on time. 44 00:02:56,236 --> 00:03:00,116 Speaker 2: And I was more interested in, I don't know, asking questions, 45 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:03,636 Speaker 2: but also trying to make people laugh in the class, 46 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:06,756 Speaker 2: and so it was fun for other kids in the class, 47 00:03:07,196 --> 00:03:08,996 Speaker 2: but not that fun for the teachers. 48 00:03:09,596 --> 00:03:14,036 Speaker 1: I wonder whether your experience as a kid did inform 49 00:03:14,156 --> 00:03:16,916 Speaker 1: the work you ultimately explored as a psychologist, which was 50 00:03:17,796 --> 00:03:22,356 Speaker 1: your focus on young people ages ten to twenty five, Like, 51 00:03:23,236 --> 00:03:28,076 Speaker 1: is there a connection between your personal experience and ultimately 52 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:30,476 Speaker 1: being interested in this age group? 53 00:03:31,236 --> 00:03:31,556 Speaker 3: Yeah? 54 00:03:31,796 --> 00:03:34,716 Speaker 2: So I would say that the the two weeks of 55 00:03:34,756 --> 00:03:36,596 Speaker 2: the year I liked the most were my two weeks 56 00:03:36,636 --> 00:03:41,316 Speaker 2: at summer camp. And it was mainly because finally adults 57 00:03:41,476 --> 00:03:43,316 Speaker 2: liked me and thought I brought something to the table 58 00:03:43,756 --> 00:03:49,156 Speaker 2: and I wanted to like figure out what they what 59 00:03:49,196 --> 00:03:51,476 Speaker 2: did they do, like how did they treat me? And 60 00:03:51,516 --> 00:03:54,276 Speaker 2: it was usually by like inspiring me and expecting me 61 00:03:54,316 --> 00:03:55,956 Speaker 2: to do something that was harder than I thought I 62 00:03:55,956 --> 00:03:59,236 Speaker 2: could do. And a camp, it's mundane stuff like jumping 63 00:03:59,236 --> 00:04:01,596 Speaker 2: off the top of a telephone pole and grabbing rings, 64 00:04:01,996 --> 00:04:04,716 Speaker 2: you know, two stories up. So you're facing your fears 65 00:04:05,316 --> 00:04:08,076 Speaker 2: and you are think you're going to die, but there's 66 00:04:08,076 --> 00:04:11,876 Speaker 2: a supportive adult below you and they're cheering you on, 67 00:04:12,476 --> 00:04:14,156 Speaker 2: but you're the one who has to jump. The adult 68 00:04:14,156 --> 00:04:17,076 Speaker 2: does not jump for you. Like that's also a metaphor 69 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:19,556 Speaker 2: for a lot of life that you have to climb 70 00:04:19,636 --> 00:04:23,396 Speaker 2: up to something like metaphorically scary and jump on your own. 71 00:04:24,116 --> 00:04:26,436 Speaker 2: But you've got adults around there, and if you do it, 72 00:04:26,716 --> 00:04:29,476 Speaker 2: they're stoked for you. They're like that kicked ass. That's 73 00:04:29,516 --> 00:04:33,196 Speaker 2: so awesome. And I guess if you wanted to bottle 74 00:04:33,316 --> 00:04:36,156 Speaker 2: something about my program of research, it's like, how do 75 00:04:36,196 --> 00:04:40,036 Speaker 2: we make more adults be that kind of person where again, 76 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:41,836 Speaker 2: you're not doing it for the kid. The kid has 77 00:04:41,836 --> 00:04:44,916 Speaker 2: to jump, but you're supportive enough that they feel enough 78 00:04:44,956 --> 00:04:47,196 Speaker 2: safety to take a risk that's beyond what they thought 79 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:47,676 Speaker 2: they could do. 80 00:04:48,036 --> 00:04:51,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting. I mean, we were all 81 00:04:51,636 --> 00:04:54,956 Speaker 1: kids once and yet somehow when we become adults, we 82 00:04:55,076 --> 00:04:59,276 Speaker 1: just feel this immediate disconnect with young people. Like what 83 00:04:59,316 --> 00:05:04,076 Speaker 1: do you think is is it just skillful amnesia? Why 84 00:05:04,156 --> 00:05:07,196 Speaker 1: is that we're forgetting as adults. We always think when 85 00:05:07,236 --> 00:05:09,316 Speaker 1: we're growing up, I'll never be like my parents as 86 00:05:09,316 --> 00:05:12,236 Speaker 1: a teenager, like I'll never talk to my teenage kid 87 00:05:12,236 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 1: and the way my parents are talking to me. And 88 00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:15,836 Speaker 1: then we all do the same thing, right. 89 00:05:16,236 --> 00:05:17,396 Speaker 3: I think it's a. 90 00:05:17,396 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 2: Really profound question, and I don't think we have an open, 91 00:05:20,636 --> 00:05:23,796 Speaker 2: shut answer, but I think about it a lot. One 92 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 2: hypothesis is that our cultural narrative about young people like 93 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:32,836 Speaker 2: selectively influences our memory of us when we were young, 94 00:05:33,116 --> 00:05:36,196 Speaker 2: and our cultural narrative is you do dumb stuff that 95 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:37,956 Speaker 2: you're later embarrassed by that. 96 00:05:38,036 --> 00:05:39,596 Speaker 3: Was, you know, not wise. 97 00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 2: So if you talk to someone about their college years 98 00:05:42,836 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 2: and now they're thirty and forty, they're like, well, we 99 00:05:45,316 --> 00:05:47,436 Speaker 2: would to this party and got super drunk, or we 100 00:05:47,996 --> 00:05:50,316 Speaker 2: you know, when on this crazy road trip and that 101 00:05:50,396 --> 00:05:52,876 Speaker 2: was irresponsible, or you know, people tell stories about how 102 00:05:52,876 --> 00:05:55,676 Speaker 2: you're responsible they were in a given age group, as 103 00:05:55,716 --> 00:06:00,356 Speaker 2: though the college years, for example, are years where you're 104 00:06:00,676 --> 00:06:04,956 Speaker 2: an idiot, And then we can't access that feeling of 105 00:06:05,796 --> 00:06:10,276 Speaker 2: like indignation when you're mistreated, or humiliation if you've like 106 00:06:10,596 --> 00:06:13,036 Speaker 2: bombed in front of people whose opinions you care about, 107 00:06:13,156 --> 00:06:16,636 Speaker 2: or the thrill of pride for impressing someone who you 108 00:06:16,716 --> 00:06:19,836 Speaker 2: cared about, and we're stuck in this older view of 109 00:06:20,076 --> 00:06:21,436 Speaker 2: we were idiots when we were young. 110 00:06:22,036 --> 00:06:25,836 Speaker 1: Yeah, you talked about this cultural narrative that we have 111 00:06:26,036 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 1: around young people. The counter to that is the biological narrative. Right, 112 00:06:29,956 --> 00:06:35,516 Speaker 1: we have a pretty pervasive misconception about young people's brains. 113 00:06:35,676 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if you can tell me a bit 114 00:06:38,076 --> 00:06:38,676 Speaker 1: more about that. 115 00:06:39,276 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 2: Let me just come into this anecdotally. So my wife 116 00:06:41,516 --> 00:06:44,236 Speaker 2: is a pediatric nurse and at some point she moved 117 00:06:44,236 --> 00:06:46,996 Speaker 2: over to the neuphrology clinic and it's wonderful clinic. They're 118 00:06:46,996 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 2: the best at kidney transplants for kids. And I talked 119 00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 2: to the one of the doctors and he's like, look, 120 00:06:54,556 --> 00:06:57,836 Speaker 2: these kids are not taking their meds, and it's a 121 00:06:57,876 --> 00:07:01,796 Speaker 2: problem because if you don't take the anti rejection matter 122 00:07:02,076 --> 00:07:04,756 Speaker 2: more medicines like that, then your body rejects the kidney 123 00:07:04,796 --> 00:07:07,396 Speaker 2: in like two days. And so it's a huge problem 124 00:07:07,436 --> 00:07:09,876 Speaker 2: because then you go on dialysis and no one wants that, 125 00:07:09,916 --> 00:07:12,956 Speaker 2: and it's miserable. But also you've wasted a kidney and 126 00:07:12,996 --> 00:07:14,796 Speaker 2: it's so rare and hard to get a kidney, and 127 00:07:14,836 --> 00:07:18,596 Speaker 2: it's a huge issue. And the doctor I talked to, 128 00:07:18,876 --> 00:07:22,316 Speaker 2: who was a wonderful person, said, I cannot fathom what 129 00:07:22,356 --> 00:07:26,236 Speaker 2: they're thinking. It's like they just don't have a prefernal cortex. 130 00:07:26,276 --> 00:07:29,556 Speaker 2: They just cannot think about the consequences of their actions. 131 00:07:30,116 --> 00:07:32,636 Speaker 2: We can't trust them or rely on them. And then 132 00:07:32,676 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 2: he concludes by saying, asking a teenager to remember to 133 00:07:35,956 --> 00:07:39,196 Speaker 2: take their medicine when they lack a prefernal cortex is 134 00:07:39,236 --> 00:07:41,756 Speaker 2: like asking someone with no biceps or triceps to do 135 00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 2: push ups. 136 00:07:43,196 --> 00:07:45,116 Speaker 3: And I fully see where this. 137 00:07:45,076 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 2: Is coming from. And he had seen a talk on 138 00:07:48,116 --> 00:07:51,756 Speaker 2: the latest supposed neuroscience of adolescence and it's making its 139 00:07:51,756 --> 00:07:54,036 Speaker 2: way out there and lots of important settings where the 140 00:07:54,036 --> 00:07:57,516 Speaker 2: punchline is teenagers lack of prefernal cortex and therefore we 141 00:07:57,556 --> 00:08:00,836 Speaker 2: can't trust them to do anything. I call that the 142 00:08:00,916 --> 00:08:04,436 Speaker 2: neurobiological incompetence model. That the main contribution of it is, 143 00:08:04,476 --> 00:08:07,596 Speaker 2: to say, teenagers' brains because of a combination of the 144 00:08:07,636 --> 00:08:12,996 Speaker 2: explosion of hormones combined with under development of the prefrontal regions, 145 00:08:13,556 --> 00:08:16,276 Speaker 2: leads to this all gas, no breaks mentality that they're 146 00:08:16,316 --> 00:08:19,356 Speaker 2: just impulsively following whatever desire they want and not thinking 147 00:08:19,356 --> 00:08:23,676 Speaker 2: about the future. And that idea is out there now 148 00:08:23,716 --> 00:08:27,196 Speaker 2: and it's kind of been codified in neuroscience and there's 149 00:08:27,236 --> 00:08:30,156 Speaker 2: a reason why they did that, and the reason was 150 00:08:30,316 --> 00:08:35,476 Speaker 2: around criminal justice. Teenagers who committed serious crimes like violent crimes, 151 00:08:35,876 --> 00:08:38,556 Speaker 2: were being sentenced to life without parole or the death penalty, 152 00:08:39,076 --> 00:08:42,996 Speaker 2: because the argument went, if they were so evil that 153 00:08:43,036 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 2: they could commit these heinous crimes even while fourteen fifteen sixteen, 154 00:08:46,436 --> 00:08:48,596 Speaker 2: then they would only get worse, or they certainly wouldn't 155 00:08:48,596 --> 00:08:50,996 Speaker 2: get better, so better to not have them in our society. 156 00:08:51,036 --> 00:08:53,156 Speaker 2: These are like the bad apples. Let's get rid of them. 157 00:08:53,756 --> 00:08:56,636 Speaker 2: And what the neuroscientists argued is that actually you're still changing. 158 00:08:56,716 --> 00:08:58,996 Speaker 2: We don't know that you're stuck being an evil, heinous 159 00:08:59,036 --> 00:09:03,076 Speaker 2: monster for life at fourteen fifteen sixteen because you're highly 160 00:09:03,156 --> 00:09:09,236 Speaker 2: sensitive to impulses because your brain is incompetent, basically, and 161 00:09:09,556 --> 00:09:11,716 Speaker 2: they successfully argue to the Supreme Court in a very 162 00:09:11,716 --> 00:09:14,476 Speaker 2: important way that at huge justice consequences and I would 163 00:09:14,476 --> 00:09:16,956 Speaker 2: no way diminish the contribution. 164 00:09:16,556 --> 00:09:17,116 Speaker 3: Of that work. 165 00:09:17,716 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 2: But very soon that argument is used to say, well, 166 00:09:20,476 --> 00:09:23,916 Speaker 2: teenagers shouldn't have control over their sex lives or their contraception, 167 00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:26,396 Speaker 2: or they shouldn't be asked, you know, to think about 168 00:09:26,436 --> 00:09:32,676 Speaker 2: politics or to lobby against the gun policies. You're just 169 00:09:32,676 --> 00:09:36,716 Speaker 2: an idiotic teenager who doesn't understand the future and what 170 00:09:36,876 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 2: I'd want to argue is that if we start from 171 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:44,676 Speaker 2: that incompetence model, then so many other problematic ways of 172 00:09:44,716 --> 00:09:46,956 Speaker 2: interacting with young people make sense to us, and we 173 00:09:46,996 --> 00:09:50,236 Speaker 2: do them almost by default. For instance, if we view 174 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:52,596 Speaker 2: young people as a problem that's about to get out 175 00:09:52,596 --> 00:09:56,156 Speaker 2: of control, then we need to use very strong punishments 176 00:09:56,236 --> 00:09:58,596 Speaker 2: or rewards to control their behavior and kind of save 177 00:09:58,636 --> 00:10:01,036 Speaker 2: them from themselves. And also if we view them as 178 00:10:01,036 --> 00:10:05,796 Speaker 2: incompetent and therefore incapable of doing anything impressive, then we 179 00:10:05,796 --> 00:10:08,036 Speaker 2: shouldn't ask them to do anything. We need to protect them, 180 00:10:08,036 --> 00:10:10,356 Speaker 2: in fact, from the stresses of the world until their 181 00:10:10,356 --> 00:10:14,236 Speaker 2: brains are fully cooked. And I think when adults behave 182 00:10:14,316 --> 00:10:19,236 Speaker 2: in those ways, though young people rebel, They field looked 183 00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:21,356 Speaker 2: down on. They feel like I felt as a kid. 184 00:10:21,916 --> 00:10:24,116 Speaker 2: And I want to argue that the incompetence model is 185 00:10:24,156 --> 00:10:27,196 Speaker 2: not fixed reality, that the science is a little more complicated, 186 00:10:27,596 --> 00:10:28,996 Speaker 2: and that there's a different way to look at it. 187 00:10:29,036 --> 00:10:30,876 Speaker 2: And if you look at it that different way, then 188 00:10:31,116 --> 00:10:33,756 Speaker 2: a different set of behaviors for the adults make sense. 189 00:10:33,876 --> 00:10:36,916 Speaker 2: And those behaviors I think can lead us to engage 190 00:10:36,956 --> 00:10:38,076 Speaker 2: young people more effectively. 191 00:10:38,876 --> 00:10:41,556 Speaker 1: And what is that different way so help us update 192 00:10:41,596 --> 00:10:43,956 Speaker 1: our mental models like, how should we think about the 193 00:10:43,996 --> 00:10:45,076 Speaker 1: young adult brain? 194 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:50,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, so the brain is continuing to develop in many 195 00:10:50,316 --> 00:10:54,636 Speaker 2: cases until the mid to late twenties. So Audrona Galvaan 196 00:10:54,716 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 2: who's at UCLA, is a well known neuroscientist, and she 197 00:10:57,756 --> 00:11:02,756 Speaker 2: describes the changes as basically sensitizing the brain to social 198 00:11:02,996 --> 00:11:09,356 Speaker 2: experiences and emotions like shame, pride, humiliation, earning, prestige, things 199 00:11:09,436 --> 00:11:13,676 Speaker 2: like that, and Aedrona's catchphrases like the prefrontal region is 200 00:11:13,716 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 2: for goal directed behavior, and teenagers are great at goal 201 00:11:16,516 --> 00:11:19,676 Speaker 2: directed behavior, it's just not the goals that adults often 202 00:11:19,756 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 2: want them to be doing. So adults want them to 203 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:25,996 Speaker 2: factor endless worksheets of trino meals and stead quietly in 204 00:11:26,036 --> 00:11:28,716 Speaker 2: their desks, right, But kids are like, I want to 205 00:11:28,756 --> 00:11:34,236 Speaker 2: look awesome. Yeah, And so the adults are saying, you're 206 00:11:34,236 --> 00:11:37,116 Speaker 2: not thinking about the future in your income, but it's 207 00:11:37,116 --> 00:11:40,036 Speaker 2: because they're saying factor trino meals now, so that next 208 00:11:40,076 --> 00:11:42,156 Speaker 2: year you can get into geometry, and eventually you'll get 209 00:11:42,156 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 2: into calculus, so you could get into a good college, 210 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:45,876 Speaker 2: and then you can get a good job so that 211 00:11:45,916 --> 00:11:48,516 Speaker 2: by your thirties you can barely afford a mortgage and 212 00:11:48,556 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 2: it's like, that's not a compelling argument for a lot 213 00:11:50,756 --> 00:11:53,756 Speaker 2: of young people. But it doesn't mean that they're incapable 214 00:11:53,836 --> 00:11:56,596 Speaker 2: of thinking about the future or planning ahead. They're great 215 00:11:56,596 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 2: at planning ahead. For instance, just look at any kid 216 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:00,556 Speaker 2: who wants to sneak out of the house to go 217 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:01,196 Speaker 2: to a party. 218 00:12:01,756 --> 00:12:03,356 Speaker 3: They're like, who do I have to lie to? 219 00:12:03,676 --> 00:12:03,756 Speaker 2: Like? 220 00:12:03,836 --> 00:12:04,516 Speaker 1: Who do I like? 221 00:12:04,596 --> 00:12:07,276 Speaker 2: What? They're laying traps weeks in advance. They've got like 222 00:12:07,316 --> 00:12:09,676 Speaker 2: a map of the sewers, like they're they thought. 223 00:12:09,556 --> 00:12:12,236 Speaker 1: Their siblings into it. They're bartering like I'll keep your 224 00:12:12,236 --> 00:12:13,556 Speaker 1: secret if you keep my secret. 225 00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:14,356 Speaker 3: It's elaborate. 226 00:12:15,076 --> 00:12:18,396 Speaker 2: And but that's the negative example or just the po 227 00:12:18,796 --> 00:12:20,996 Speaker 2: this summer was the Olympics and how many of our 228 00:12:21,036 --> 00:12:25,116 Speaker 2: heroes were like fifteen year olds that clearly displayed tons 229 00:12:25,116 --> 00:12:28,316 Speaker 2: of self control and strategic behavior over time in order 230 00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:30,676 Speaker 2: to develop valued skills that would be useful in the future. 231 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,996 Speaker 2: So once you realize what Audrina and the rest of 232 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:37,956 Speaker 2: the Center on the Developing Adolescent has been arguing, then 233 00:12:37,956 --> 00:12:40,196 Speaker 2: you realize the real task is to figure out what 234 00:12:40,236 --> 00:12:42,636 Speaker 2: do they want to direct their attention to? What are 235 00:12:42,636 --> 00:12:46,276 Speaker 2: those sets of goals that will capture their attention. It's 236 00:12:46,356 --> 00:12:49,876 Speaker 2: the experiences of status and respect. But it's not just 237 00:12:49,876 --> 00:12:54,636 Speaker 2: like frivolous stuff. It's the deep, meaningful sense that you 238 00:12:54,996 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 2: can make a contribution and that other people who are 239 00:12:58,436 --> 00:13:00,956 Speaker 2: judging you and who you care, that they're judging you, 240 00:13:01,516 --> 00:13:05,596 Speaker 2: that they think you have value. That's what status and 241 00:13:05,636 --> 00:13:10,476 Speaker 2: respect is. And you don't just get that by virtue 242 00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:12,356 Speaker 2: of the days going by. It's something you have to 243 00:13:12,396 --> 00:13:16,676 Speaker 2: earn in front of others, and so often that means 244 00:13:16,716 --> 00:13:19,116 Speaker 2: doing something that's a little bold and a little risky 245 00:13:19,196 --> 00:13:19,996 Speaker 2: and a little hard. 246 00:13:20,916 --> 00:13:24,756 Speaker 1: So given this, David, take me back to that scenario 247 00:13:24,916 --> 00:13:29,996 Speaker 1: involving the teenagers with kidney transplants who weren't taking their medications. 248 00:13:31,116 --> 00:13:32,796 Speaker 1: What were their doctors getting wrong? 249 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:36,836 Speaker 2: There are two social things that they've generally failed to consider. 250 00:13:36,956 --> 00:13:37,396 Speaker 3: I learned. 251 00:13:38,036 --> 00:13:42,276 Speaker 2: One is why the young person would not want to 252 00:13:42,316 --> 00:13:46,236 Speaker 2: take their meds. And the adults think, if only we 253 00:13:46,316 --> 00:13:49,556 Speaker 2: explain the consequences of your behavior more clearly, then you 254 00:13:49,556 --> 00:13:52,476 Speaker 2: would come around. Adults are almost like if an American 255 00:13:52,876 --> 00:13:55,836 Speaker 2: doesn't speak a foreign language, goes overseas and then they 256 00:13:55,876 --> 00:13:58,556 Speaker 2: can't talk to someone in like Italian or whatever, and 257 00:13:58,596 --> 00:14:00,236 Speaker 2: then they just yell English louder. 258 00:14:00,356 --> 00:14:00,836 Speaker 3: Yeah, at that. 259 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:03,116 Speaker 1: Person slower, as though that will make a difference. 260 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:07,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like that's that's most doctors, nurses, parents approach to 261 00:14:07,876 --> 00:14:12,276 Speaker 2: teenagers when they don't their medical advice. And that is 262 00:14:12,316 --> 00:14:17,076 Speaker 2: a social experience because it is disrespectful. You're talking down 263 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:20,156 Speaker 2: to them. It humiliating for the young person, and that 264 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:23,956 Speaker 2: that means they're not being afforded respect as an adult 265 00:14:24,036 --> 00:14:28,516 Speaker 2: like person who's contributing. The second thing, though, is that 266 00:14:29,356 --> 00:14:31,916 Speaker 2: I heard this from a lot of kids. Before you 267 00:14:31,956 --> 00:14:34,596 Speaker 2: have your kidney, you feel very different and weird because 268 00:14:34,636 --> 00:14:37,276 Speaker 2: you have to go to dialysis all the time, and 269 00:14:37,356 --> 00:14:41,236 Speaker 2: so you're like, I mean it's like biblical, you know, 270 00:14:41,516 --> 00:14:43,756 Speaker 2: kind of like you're out in the desert alone, you know, 271 00:14:43,836 --> 00:14:45,436 Speaker 2: a day of the week, two days out of the 272 00:14:45,436 --> 00:14:50,436 Speaker 2: week where you're just ostracized from your community. And once 273 00:14:50,436 --> 00:14:52,276 Speaker 2: they get the kidney, they don't have to do that anymore, 274 00:14:52,436 --> 00:14:55,316 Speaker 2: and so they're like making up for lost time of 275 00:14:55,316 --> 00:14:58,916 Speaker 2: feeling like a normal person around their friends. And so 276 00:14:59,516 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 2: if they go like to the beach and bring enough 277 00:15:04,196 --> 00:15:07,756 Speaker 2: meds for one day, but all the other friends are like, 278 00:15:07,756 --> 00:15:10,956 Speaker 2: we're going to stay at extra night and say some 279 00:15:11,036 --> 00:15:14,036 Speaker 2: kids are like Okay, I'm not driving back to Oakland 280 00:15:14,156 --> 00:15:15,916 Speaker 2: to go get my other dose. These are like real 281 00:15:15,996 --> 00:15:18,476 Speaker 2: stories from Stanford patients, and. 282 00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:20,636 Speaker 3: Like you get it. 283 00:15:20,916 --> 00:15:23,476 Speaker 2: I mean like they have to choose between listening to 284 00:15:23,516 --> 00:15:25,316 Speaker 2: the grown ups who talked down to them and yelled 285 00:15:25,356 --> 00:15:28,236 Speaker 2: at them and treated them like a child and think 286 00:15:28,276 --> 00:15:31,796 Speaker 2: that they have no proofernal cortex, or hang out with 287 00:15:31,836 --> 00:15:33,876 Speaker 2: the cool people who are treating them like a normal 288 00:15:33,916 --> 00:15:36,116 Speaker 2: kid for the first time in their lives. Or a 289 00:15:36,196 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 2: related thing is especially if kids have steroids that they 290 00:15:39,156 --> 00:15:41,596 Speaker 2: have to take. The pills are huge, so the kids 291 00:15:41,596 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 2: would have like two fistfuls of steroid pills bulging in 292 00:15:44,196 --> 00:15:46,636 Speaker 2: their pockets, and you're at a party with your friends, 293 00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:51,196 Speaker 2: and if you take those, first of all that you 294 00:15:51,236 --> 00:15:54,356 Speaker 2: can't drink, you also get bad breath, you get like 295 00:15:54,396 --> 00:15:57,876 Speaker 2: a rectile problems. So like you already feel weird that 296 00:15:57,876 --> 00:16:00,756 Speaker 2: you have two pocketfuls of steroid pills, but then you're 297 00:16:00,756 --> 00:16:03,196 Speaker 2: basically like taking away a lot of stuff you want 298 00:16:03,196 --> 00:16:05,556 Speaker 2: to do at a party, which is like talk closely 299 00:16:05,596 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 2: to someone with the opposite sex and make out and 300 00:16:08,236 --> 00:16:10,436 Speaker 2: all these other things. And so again you have to 301 00:16:10,516 --> 00:16:14,116 Speaker 2: choose between listening to grown ups. But with social death 302 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:18,076 Speaker 2: or threat of physical death, but social life. And so 303 00:16:18,236 --> 00:16:20,876 Speaker 2: you can think of the adolescent brain as like this 304 00:16:20,996 --> 00:16:24,116 Speaker 2: social R and D engine of our culture. Something that 305 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:26,956 Speaker 2: looks like risky and idiotic to us is maybe their 306 00:16:26,996 --> 00:16:30,076 Speaker 2: way of creatively trying to solve the problem of having 307 00:16:30,356 --> 00:16:32,836 Speaker 2: more of the thing that brings you social success and 308 00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:35,996 Speaker 2: fewer of the things that bring you social failure. But 309 00:16:36,116 --> 00:16:40,396 Speaker 2: because every generation has its own microculture of what counts 310 00:16:40,436 --> 00:16:45,116 Speaker 2: for status, you don't want a brain that decides too 311 00:16:45,156 --> 00:16:49,476 Speaker 2: early to only do one kind of behavior to gain status. 312 00:16:49,676 --> 00:16:53,556 Speaker 2: Because in our culture, things are changing so fast, right, professionally, 313 00:16:53,676 --> 00:16:57,396 Speaker 2: socially in terms of big ideas or crises that we're facing. 314 00:16:58,076 --> 00:17:02,236 Speaker 2: So it's not underdeveloped, it's that it's still adapting to 315 00:17:02,476 --> 00:17:06,396 Speaker 2: the complex and ambiguous and ever changing environment that we're in. 316 00:17:06,996 --> 00:17:10,396 Speaker 1: That it is underdeveloped, right some dimensions. 317 00:17:10,676 --> 00:17:13,636 Speaker 2: You're right, There are some areas in which just basic, 318 00:17:13,756 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 2: exactly basic decision making stuff is less developed. 319 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:18,836 Speaker 1: The reason, sorry, the reason I'm pushing on this is 320 00:17:18,876 --> 00:17:22,436 Speaker 1: I don't want listeners to leave this conversation thinking, Ah, 321 00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:25,596 Speaker 1: their prefunal courteses are basically the same as ours in 322 00:17:25,676 --> 00:17:27,476 Speaker 1: terms of what they're capable of and so we can 323 00:17:27,676 --> 00:17:31,396 Speaker 1: entirely ascribe differences to what their goals are, because I 324 00:17:31,396 --> 00:17:34,756 Speaker 1: think that would almost create unfairly high standards for the 325 00:17:34,796 --> 00:17:35,476 Speaker 1: young adult brain. 326 00:17:35,716 --> 00:17:35,876 Speaker 3: Right. 327 00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:38,916 Speaker 2: The bad version of that is young people are as 328 00:17:38,956 --> 00:17:41,756 Speaker 2: capable of great decision making as every adult, and so 329 00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:44,516 Speaker 2: if they make a bad decision, it's because they didn't 330 00:17:44,556 --> 00:17:46,436 Speaker 2: want to and therefore they are bad people. 331 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:47,916 Speaker 3: Yeah, or they don't care. 332 00:17:48,116 --> 00:17:50,156 Speaker 1: Or they had, you know, goals that we would see 333 00:17:50,276 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 1: deemed superficial or whatever. 334 00:17:52,156 --> 00:17:55,076 Speaker 2: Right, You're absolutely right that the meta narrative of they're 335 00:17:55,116 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 2: just as smart as every other adult and therefore they're 336 00:17:57,236 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 2: to blame if they make a dumb decision is problematic 337 00:18:01,276 --> 00:18:04,156 Speaker 2: because then we would end up condemning lots of kids, 338 00:18:04,196 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 2: which is what we're trying to avoid. 339 00:18:06,196 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 1: You know, the premise of your book, David, is if 340 00:18:08,836 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 1: we can better empathize with what's going on in the 341 00:18:12,276 --> 00:18:15,956 Speaker 1: young mind, then we can also understand how to better 342 00:18:15,996 --> 00:18:18,156 Speaker 1: engage with that young mind, right in ways that just 343 00:18:18,276 --> 00:18:21,436 Speaker 1: lead to better outcomes. Right, This is not just a 344 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:24,596 Speaker 1: principled stance. This is about trying to just get better 345 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:26,276 Speaker 1: outcomes for all parties involved. 346 00:18:26,316 --> 00:18:28,556 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, make your life easier, that's totally fine with me. 347 00:18:28,716 --> 00:18:31,756 Speaker 1: Fewer fights with your kid actually get to do their homework. Whatever, 348 00:18:31,796 --> 00:18:36,316 Speaker 1: the thing is, right, So tell me about what you 349 00:18:36,396 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 1: consider to be a good way and a bad way 350 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:40,636 Speaker 1: to deliver feedback to a kid. 351 00:18:41,156 --> 00:18:44,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's We wanted to do a study where 352 00:18:45,116 --> 00:18:49,356 Speaker 2: in one condition, you talk to a young adult in 353 00:18:49,396 --> 00:18:53,476 Speaker 2: a way that's disrespectful, and in another condition, talk to 354 00:18:53,476 --> 00:18:56,676 Speaker 2: them in a way that's respectful, and see if their 355 00:18:56,796 --> 00:19:00,996 Speaker 2: rates of taking their medicine are higher in the respectful group. 356 00:19:01,916 --> 00:19:05,276 Speaker 2: And we pick medicine apart because of the adherence issues 357 00:19:05,316 --> 00:19:07,516 Speaker 2: I described, but also because I think it's a good 358 00:19:07,516 --> 00:19:09,116 Speaker 2: stand in for a lot of other things where adult, 359 00:19:09,836 --> 00:19:11,316 Speaker 2: you know, asking you to do your homework is more 360 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:13,796 Speaker 2: or less like saying take your medicine. But the thing is, 361 00:19:13,796 --> 00:19:18,076 Speaker 2: you can't do a study with actual kidney transplant patients, 362 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:20,196 Speaker 2: and so we had to make up a medicine that's 363 00:19:20,236 --> 00:19:24,236 Speaker 2: plausibly useful but not actually harmful if you don't take it, 364 00:19:24,276 --> 00:19:27,196 Speaker 2: but needs to be inconvenient and unpleasant. And so the 365 00:19:27,276 --> 00:19:30,876 Speaker 2: medicine we use in our study was a spoonful of vegemite, 366 00:19:31,036 --> 00:19:35,476 Speaker 2: which is the Australian supplement. It's like if you brewed 367 00:19:35,476 --> 00:19:37,116 Speaker 2: a barrel of beer and there was a bunch of 368 00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:40,036 Speaker 2: yeast at the bottom and then you put that on toast. 369 00:19:40,116 --> 00:19:41,116 Speaker 3: So that's vegemite. 370 00:19:41,116 --> 00:19:43,716 Speaker 1: And just to clarify, is the vegemite being framed as 371 00:19:43,756 --> 00:19:46,516 Speaker 1: something that is healthy, like it's going to help their nutrition. 372 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:47,676 Speaker 3: Yeah, we didn't tell what was VEGEMI. 373 00:19:47,756 --> 00:19:49,836 Speaker 2: We were like, this is a new nutritional supplement that 374 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:52,036 Speaker 2: could be healthy for you, but also as a part 375 00:19:52,076 --> 00:19:53,476 Speaker 2: of an experiment, we're studying it. 376 00:19:53,836 --> 00:19:57,516 Speaker 1: Yeah, so what was respectful versus non respectful language? 377 00:19:57,756 --> 00:19:59,676 Speaker 2: So people try the vegemite, they realized the don't like it, 378 00:19:59,716 --> 00:20:01,236 Speaker 2: and then and then they watch a video and in 379 00:20:01,276 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 2: the disrespectful condition, which we wrote with real doctors, we're like, 380 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:06,116 Speaker 2: what do you guys say to people? And it's things 381 00:20:06,196 --> 00:20:07,956 Speaker 2: like I'm a doctor, so I know what's good for you, 382 00:20:08,396 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 2: and if you want to do the right thing, then 383 00:20:11,036 --> 00:20:13,676 Speaker 2: you'll listen to me and you'll take this medicine. They'd 384 00:20:13,716 --> 00:20:16,596 Speaker 2: say things like it has an unpleasant taste, try to 385 00:20:16,636 --> 00:20:20,836 Speaker 2: ignore that. Thank you in advance for your cooperation. In general, 386 00:20:21,036 --> 00:20:24,636 Speaker 2: it diminishes the young person, treats them as though they 387 00:20:24,676 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 2: don't have agency, Like it doesn't like respect their thinking 388 00:20:28,076 --> 00:20:30,796 Speaker 2: or decision making, and then in the respectful condition, we 389 00:20:30,876 --> 00:20:33,676 Speaker 2: tell them I think you're gonna understand the real reason 390 00:20:33,716 --> 00:20:35,796 Speaker 2: why we want you to do this. Let me explain 391 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:38,876 Speaker 2: it to you. So they explain the real rationale. We 392 00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:41,596 Speaker 2: say things like it's got an unpleasant taste. Try to 393 00:20:41,596 --> 00:20:43,556 Speaker 2: think of that as you doing your part to help 394 00:20:43,596 --> 00:20:46,476 Speaker 2: others and yourself for the future can help science, and 395 00:20:46,476 --> 00:20:49,156 Speaker 2: then once we have science, then science will help the world. 396 00:20:49,316 --> 00:20:53,116 Speaker 2: So kind of framing the unpleasantness as a sign of 397 00:20:53,196 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 2: respect and contribution. And then we grant agencies so like, 398 00:20:57,156 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 2: I hope you might consider this rather than you should 399 00:20:59,396 --> 00:21:02,596 Speaker 2: do this, and we say, you know, thanks for considering it. 400 00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:06,076 Speaker 2: Stuff like that, And we find pretty important differences in 401 00:21:06,116 --> 00:21:09,636 Speaker 2: the rates at which young people in our experiment took 402 00:21:09,756 --> 00:21:12,596 Speaker 2: the vega might if they were asked respectfully, depending on 403 00:21:12,636 --> 00:21:16,876 Speaker 2: the analysis, up to twice as likely. Often people think 404 00:21:16,916 --> 00:21:19,036 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how I ask a young person, It 405 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:21,556 Speaker 2: just matters that I asked them. And if I asked 406 00:21:21,596 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 2: you in whatever way I considered was good and they 407 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:26,636 Speaker 2: didn't do what I said, then they're rere calcil trant, 408 00:21:26,676 --> 00:21:30,596 Speaker 2: they're rebellious, they're short sighted, they're a problem. But the 409 00:21:30,716 --> 00:21:34,796 Speaker 2: view I'm trying to argue is that young people, when 410 00:21:34,796 --> 00:21:38,236 Speaker 2: their status is in question, they're they're reading between the lines. 411 00:21:38,756 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 2: They're not just listening to what said, They're listening to 412 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:46,596 Speaker 2: the unsaid parts. And that makes a big difference in 413 00:21:46,716 --> 00:21:50,516 Speaker 2: terms of whether they presume that the adults or the 414 00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 2: mentor has their best interests at heart. And because so 415 00:21:53,996 --> 00:21:56,396 Speaker 2: many young people are treated poorly and they're treated as 416 00:21:56,396 --> 00:22:00,556 Speaker 2: though they're incompetent, then their default presumption will be that 417 00:22:00,636 --> 00:22:02,596 Speaker 2: this is yet another adult telling me what to do, 418 00:22:02,676 --> 00:22:04,196 Speaker 2: and you gonna yell at me and blame. 419 00:22:03,996 --> 00:22:04,796 Speaker 3: Me if I don't do it. 420 00:22:05,476 --> 00:22:07,636 Speaker 2: And so you have to be extra transparent, like clearer 421 00:22:07,636 --> 00:22:11,356 Speaker 2: than you think you need to be, which often I 422 00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:13,956 Speaker 2: say that, and then bosses or you know, business owners 423 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:16,676 Speaker 2: are like, well, let's because gen Z's too sensitive these days, 424 00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:18,916 Speaker 2: And I think no, Like, if you were eighteen, you 425 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:21,316 Speaker 2: would not want to be talked down to either, and 426 00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:25,596 Speaker 2: you would have complained if people were disrespectful to you. 427 00:22:26,076 --> 00:22:28,236 Speaker 2: And I don't think young people are crazy for paying 428 00:22:28,276 --> 00:22:31,636 Speaker 2: attention to the subtle ways in which they're being disrespected 429 00:22:31,636 --> 00:22:32,236 Speaker 2: by authority. 430 00:22:32,276 --> 00:22:32,676 Speaker 3: Figures. 431 00:22:35,516 --> 00:22:37,636 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with a slight change 432 00:22:37,676 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 1: of plans, the more respectful feedback approach that you just 433 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:58,956 Speaker 1: articulated as part of what you call a mentor mindset. 434 00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:01,596 Speaker 1: Talk to me a bit more about the tenants of 435 00:23:01,636 --> 00:23:05,036 Speaker 1: this mindset. So you alluded to transparency, what are other 436 00:23:05,276 --> 00:23:06,076 Speaker 1: core features? 437 00:23:06,436 --> 00:23:08,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, I write about this concept of a mentor mindset, 438 00:23:08,596 --> 00:23:12,396 Speaker 2: which I define simply as someone having very high standards 439 00:23:12,396 --> 00:23:16,156 Speaker 2: slash expectations, but also being supportive enough so that the 440 00:23:16,196 --> 00:23:20,796 Speaker 2: young person can meet those like legitimately high expectations. So 441 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:23,596 Speaker 2: you kind of first need to have this belief that 442 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:26,476 Speaker 2: young people could be properly motivated under the right conditions, 443 00:23:26,476 --> 00:23:27,956 Speaker 2: with the right environmental supports. 444 00:23:28,076 --> 00:23:30,116 Speaker 3: And if you believe that, then it's like, Okay, I can. 445 00:23:30,156 --> 00:23:32,756 Speaker 2: Push them and challenge them, but I need to figure 446 00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:34,756 Speaker 2: out the way to support them so that they're open 447 00:23:34,756 --> 00:23:37,556 Speaker 2: to that challenge and can succeed through it. So in 448 00:23:37,596 --> 00:23:42,196 Speaker 2: the book, I found examples of mentor mindset leaders and 449 00:23:42,236 --> 00:23:47,836 Speaker 2: a bunch of different disciplines coaching, management, teaching, etc. And 450 00:23:47,836 --> 00:23:50,036 Speaker 2: there's a handful of practices that they all do. So 451 00:23:50,836 --> 00:23:54,556 Speaker 2: one is questioning and I was struck by this, like 452 00:23:54,596 --> 00:23:58,796 Speaker 2: you'd think that a great tutor, for example, would just 453 00:23:58,836 --> 00:24:01,956 Speaker 2: be awesome at explaining physics, that they have the best 454 00:24:01,956 --> 00:24:05,116 Speaker 2: metaphor and the right way of clarifying and misunderstanding, and 455 00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:08,236 Speaker 2: they're just a very good explainer. But Mark Lepper is 456 00:24:08,236 --> 00:24:12,516 Speaker 2: the Stanford Social Psychologists spent years watching expert tutors and 457 00:24:12,556 --> 00:24:15,556 Speaker 2: found that ninety percent or more of what they say. 458 00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 3: Is a question. 459 00:24:16,356 --> 00:24:20,236 Speaker 2: It's not an explanation. So a student would try a 460 00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:22,516 Speaker 2: problem and the tutor, and the tutor would be like. 461 00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:23,916 Speaker 3: Huh, is that right? 462 00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:27,156 Speaker 2: Like they wouldn't say it's wrong, and they wouldn't explain it. 463 00:24:27,156 --> 00:24:31,876 Speaker 2: They would go say the obvious linguistic implication is not right, 464 00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:34,516 Speaker 2: and the student knows that, but the tutors don't say that. 465 00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:37,156 Speaker 2: But it invites the student to then think about why 466 00:24:37,196 --> 00:24:39,996 Speaker 2: it might be wrong. And it's because the tutor wants 467 00:24:40,036 --> 00:24:43,036 Speaker 2: the student to own the thinking after the tutoring session. 468 00:24:43,116 --> 00:24:45,276 Speaker 2: You don't just want the one hour where the tutor 469 00:24:45,556 --> 00:24:48,076 Speaker 2: and because then the only problem set the student can 470 00:24:48,116 --> 00:24:50,076 Speaker 2: do is the ones they did in that one hour. 471 00:24:50,596 --> 00:24:52,076 Speaker 2: Which you really want is the student to be able 472 00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 2: to go out and do all their problem sets using 473 00:24:54,116 --> 00:24:57,156 Speaker 2: critical thinking and open ended and self interrogation, et cetera. 474 00:24:57,756 --> 00:25:01,076 Speaker 2: So in general, mentor mindset exemplars do a version of 475 00:25:01,116 --> 00:25:03,956 Speaker 2: that kind of questioning, and it's everything from parents to 476 00:25:03,996 --> 00:25:06,676 Speaker 2: get their kids to stop fighting with each other to 477 00:25:07,276 --> 00:25:10,876 Speaker 2: how Chip England, the NBA's best shooting coach, would get 478 00:25:11,516 --> 00:25:14,116 Speaker 2: Kawhi Leonard or Tony Parker to fix their shot and 479 00:25:14,156 --> 00:25:18,156 Speaker 2: go on to win championships. Now, questioning is not a 480 00:25:18,276 --> 00:25:21,196 Speaker 2: universal good in the sense that not all questions are 481 00:25:21,196 --> 00:25:25,076 Speaker 2: created equal. So asking a young person what were you thinking. 482 00:25:25,036 --> 00:25:27,956 Speaker 1: He has so stupid probably not a great question because 483 00:25:27,956 --> 00:25:29,076 Speaker 1: the implications. 484 00:25:28,596 --> 00:25:30,036 Speaker 3: They weren't thinking. Yeah. 485 00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:32,596 Speaker 2: But what the linguists have taught us is that there's 486 00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:36,516 Speaker 2: a kind of question that they call authentic questions with uptake, 487 00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,396 Speaker 2: and authentic just means that I'm actually curious what the 488 00:25:40,436 --> 00:25:43,036 Speaker 2: answer is. So if I ask you why you solve 489 00:25:43,076 --> 00:25:45,116 Speaker 2: the physics problem this way, I'm actually kind of curious 490 00:25:45,156 --> 00:25:46,596 Speaker 2: where your mistake came from. 491 00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:47,676 Speaker 3: And then uptake is. 492 00:25:47,596 --> 00:25:50,796 Speaker 2: That your follow up questions involve information you just got 493 00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:53,716 Speaker 2: from them, And that's respectful because it means like it 494 00:25:53,756 --> 00:25:56,596 Speaker 2: actually it mattered to me that you shared your true opinions. 495 00:25:57,076 --> 00:25:59,316 Speaker 2: So the other big thing that all the mental mindset 496 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:02,916 Speaker 2: leaders did in the NBA shooting coach Chip England. This 497 00:26:02,956 --> 00:26:04,796 Speaker 2: is the first thing he told me was he said, David, 498 00:26:04,796 --> 00:26:08,116 Speaker 2: you have to sell your vision. That general idea is 499 00:26:08,116 --> 00:26:11,596 Speaker 2: something we've used a lot in our experiments with adolescence. So, 500 00:26:11,956 --> 00:26:14,876 Speaker 2: for instance, in a classic set of studies, we took 501 00:26:15,796 --> 00:26:19,836 Speaker 2: ninth graders who were in like an algebra class, and 502 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:22,676 Speaker 2: we didn't say, if you learn algebra, then you can 503 00:26:22,716 --> 00:26:25,116 Speaker 2: get good grades. You get good grades, you get good college, 504 00:26:25,156 --> 00:26:28,836 Speaker 2: good college, good job. We instead said, can you tell 505 00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:32,116 Speaker 2: us about problems with the world, things that you find 506 00:26:32,156 --> 00:26:36,036 Speaker 2: infuriating or unfair or unjust, And turns out kids are 507 00:26:36,036 --> 00:26:38,756 Speaker 2: great at answering that question. Adults are often surprised with 508 00:26:38,796 --> 00:26:41,596 Speaker 2: the study that kids write anything, but over ninety percent 509 00:26:41,596 --> 00:26:45,796 Speaker 2: of kids write honest answers on a survey about an 510 00:26:45,836 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 2: injustice in the world, and they're talking about political instability, 511 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:54,076 Speaker 2: economic insecurity, wars like the Senate, like it's really you know, 512 00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:56,956 Speaker 2: they're frustrated by a bunch of stuff. And then we say, 513 00:26:56,996 --> 00:27:00,116 Speaker 2: all right, well, how could a stronger brain help you 514 00:27:00,196 --> 00:27:05,716 Speaker 2: do something about these issues? And kids can answer that, 515 00:27:05,916 --> 00:27:08,396 Speaker 2: but they've never been asked that question. For the most part, 516 00:27:09,596 --> 00:27:11,196 Speaker 2: they come up with things like, oh, well, if I 517 00:27:11,476 --> 00:27:14,556 Speaker 2: study in English, then I can understand logic. I understand logic, 518 00:27:14,596 --> 00:27:16,556 Speaker 2: then I can make arguments. If I can make arguments, 519 00:27:16,556 --> 00:27:20,036 Speaker 2: then I can change policies stuff like that. And it 520 00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:24,276 Speaker 2: kind of doesn't matter how accurate they are in coming 521 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:26,596 Speaker 2: up with that. It just matters that they convince themselves 522 00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:28,876 Speaker 2: that a stronger brain could help them make a difference. 523 00:27:29,516 --> 00:27:33,276 Speaker 2: And then in some experiments we give them like boring math. 524 00:27:34,396 --> 00:27:37,356 Speaker 2: This is a task developed by Angela Duckworth and Sydney 525 00:27:37,396 --> 00:27:40,396 Speaker 2: Demelo and others, And so they have a choice. They 526 00:27:40,396 --> 00:27:42,196 Speaker 2: could either do math or they could goof off on 527 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:44,556 Speaker 2: the internet like play tetrists or watch YouTube videos. 528 00:27:44,556 --> 00:27:46,876 Speaker 3: And we're secretly tracking what they're doing on the back end. 529 00:27:47,436 --> 00:27:49,716 Speaker 2: And what we find is that if we made an 530 00:27:49,796 --> 00:27:53,036 Speaker 2: argument it's pure self interest. We don't see a big 531 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:57,156 Speaker 2: benefit of thinking about a reason for learning. But if 532 00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:00,276 Speaker 2: it's like stronger brain helps you change the world, then 533 00:28:00,316 --> 00:28:02,636 Speaker 2: we see kids doing more of the kind of tedious 534 00:28:02,676 --> 00:28:05,916 Speaker 2: math and goofing off less on the internet. And the 535 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:09,916 Speaker 2: way we interpret that is that they can visual argument 536 00:28:10,236 --> 00:28:13,716 Speaker 2: is do you delay gratification now to matter in some 537 00:28:13,836 --> 00:28:19,356 Speaker 2: ambiguous distant future. But I think of it like, if 538 00:28:19,356 --> 00:28:23,276 Speaker 2: you were gonna volunteer to make lunch bags for the homeless, 539 00:28:23,876 --> 00:28:26,556 Speaker 2: you'd feel like a good person while you're packing the lunch, 540 00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:29,316 Speaker 2: But a homeless person hasn't eaten that sandwich yet, Like 541 00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:32,196 Speaker 2: the impact on the person hasn't happened. But you know 542 00:28:32,276 --> 00:28:36,996 Speaker 2: that your contributions right now are a part of something meaningful. 543 00:28:37,796 --> 00:28:41,236 Speaker 2: This beyond the self transcendent purpose I think, becomes a 544 00:28:41,276 --> 00:28:44,916 Speaker 2: powerful tool for promoting engagement and learning, but we hardly 545 00:28:44,956 --> 00:28:47,476 Speaker 2: ever tap into it. I think because we think young 546 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:51,356 Speaker 2: people just are fundamentally incapable of making contributions. 547 00:28:50,916 --> 00:28:53,596 Speaker 1: Yeah, or just inherently selfish, like that they don't care 548 00:28:53,596 --> 00:28:55,716 Speaker 1: about these pro social outcomes when they do. 549 00:28:56,076 --> 00:28:57,756 Speaker 3: Yeah, what does. 550 00:28:57,596 --> 00:29:00,596 Speaker 1: This look like in practice? So imagine I'm a teacher. 551 00:29:00,716 --> 00:29:04,276 Speaker 1: What are the traits that I must exhibit in order 552 00:29:04,316 --> 00:29:08,116 Speaker 1: to really embrace the mentor mindset? 553 00:29:08,596 --> 00:29:11,996 Speaker 2: I'll tell them extreme example, which I'm not saying everyone 554 00:29:12,036 --> 00:29:13,916 Speaker 2: needs to do this, just want to be clear, But 555 00:29:14,316 --> 00:29:16,076 Speaker 2: for two years I sat in the back of Uri 556 00:29:16,156 --> 00:29:20,196 Speaker 2: Triesman's calculus class. So Uri Triesman won the MacArthur for 557 00:29:20,596 --> 00:29:24,836 Speaker 2: being the greatest calculus professor in America in the early nineties. 558 00:29:24,996 --> 00:29:27,996 Speaker 2: When he won the MacArthur. He had been running these 559 00:29:27,996 --> 00:29:31,916 Speaker 2: calculus support programs at Berkeley for fifteen twenty years, and 560 00:29:32,916 --> 00:29:35,676 Speaker 2: he's very famous as a reformer. But no psychologists had 561 00:29:35,716 --> 00:29:38,796 Speaker 2: really watched what he did. And so after I got tenure, 562 00:29:38,916 --> 00:29:42,636 Speaker 2: I spent two years retaking freshman calculus at the University 563 00:29:42,636 --> 00:29:43,436 Speaker 2: of Texas at Austin. 564 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:43,756 Speaker 3: Wow. 565 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:44,436 Speaker 1: Awesome. 566 00:29:44,996 --> 00:29:48,076 Speaker 2: The first day of class, he says, this class will 567 00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,516 Speaker 2: be so hard that some of you will cry and 568 00:29:50,636 --> 00:29:54,036 Speaker 2: wonder why you're here. In fact, everyone here will have 569 00:29:54,236 --> 00:29:57,076 Speaker 2: such a hard time that they will question themselves. It's 570 00:29:57,116 --> 00:29:58,956 Speaker 2: not a question of whether that will happen, it's when 571 00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:01,956 Speaker 2: it will happen. Now, that sounds like someone who's trying 572 00:30:01,956 --> 00:30:04,476 Speaker 2: to get everyone to drop the class, right, Yeah, like 573 00:30:04,516 --> 00:30:05,436 Speaker 2: a readout class. 574 00:30:05,516 --> 00:30:07,076 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not even in the class anymore. 575 00:30:07,076 --> 00:30:10,876 Speaker 1: I've run out. David, this is the first thing he said, Yeah, 576 00:30:10,956 --> 00:30:12,636 Speaker 1: that's crazy, and he's like, I. 577 00:30:12,556 --> 00:30:14,116 Speaker 2: Mean, at the time, he's like a seventy one year 578 00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:16,436 Speaker 2: old Jewish guy from the Bronx, And this is a 579 00:30:16,556 --> 00:30:19,756 Speaker 2: very diverse group of students coming from you know, border 580 00:30:19,756 --> 00:30:21,996 Speaker 2: areas of Texas and like good and bad high school, 581 00:30:22,156 --> 00:30:24,196 Speaker 2: all this stuff. It's the first thing he says. But 582 00:30:24,236 --> 00:30:26,796 Speaker 2: then he says, and more of you will get a's 583 00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:29,516 Speaker 2: in this class than any other calculus class at the university, 584 00:30:30,196 --> 00:30:31,716 Speaker 2: and in fact, more of you will go on to 585 00:30:31,836 --> 00:30:34,836 Speaker 2: careers in professional mathematics and do masters in PhDs in 586 00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:37,796 Speaker 2: quantitative fields than any other calculus class in the entire 587 00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:42,276 Speaker 2: ut system. And then he'll say things like you know, 588 00:30:42,396 --> 00:30:45,156 Speaker 2: after your first all nighter, And then the students are like, 589 00:30:45,196 --> 00:30:47,636 Speaker 2: wait a second, first, like there's gonna be multiple all 590 00:30:47,756 --> 00:30:52,236 Speaker 2: nighters in this class. And what he actually does is 591 00:30:52,516 --> 00:30:54,716 Speaker 2: the first problem set. It's like he gives out on 592 00:30:54,716 --> 00:30:58,276 Speaker 2: the second day of class. It's like proving theorems that 593 00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:01,996 Speaker 2: other in other classes you memorize or that you don't 594 00:31:02,036 --> 00:31:03,996 Speaker 2: even touch, because he's teaching them how to do like 595 00:31:04,116 --> 00:31:08,956 Speaker 2: real analysis on the first day of calculus, and students 596 00:31:09,316 --> 00:31:11,116 Speaker 2: is like, there's five problems, so they think they can 597 00:31:11,156 --> 00:31:12,756 Speaker 2: start at the last second. So then no one even 598 00:31:12,796 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 2: opens the assignment till like midnight. And then he's told 599 00:31:16,596 --> 00:31:20,476 Speaker 2: them I'll be available for office hours as long as 600 00:31:20,476 --> 00:31:22,196 Speaker 2: you need me, so all night, and so he and 601 00:31:22,236 --> 00:31:26,356 Speaker 2: his tas are in the math building and one by 602 00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 2: one the students trickle in like between twelve and two. 603 00:31:30,076 --> 00:31:33,996 Speaker 2: They're doing calculus proofs from like two to six in 604 00:31:33,996 --> 00:31:36,676 Speaker 2: the morning, and then they they all finish it and 605 00:31:36,716 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 2: then they walk out of the class like bleary eyed 606 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:41,556 Speaker 2: looking at the sun, you know, and pass out. And 607 00:31:42,196 --> 00:31:44,356 Speaker 2: he only has to do that once for them to 608 00:31:44,436 --> 00:31:48,156 Speaker 2: know he's totally serious about the standard and he's a 609 00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:49,476 Speaker 2: lunatic about the support. 610 00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:53,716 Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. He's saying through that like, I believe each 611 00:31:53,756 --> 00:31:54,756 Speaker 1: of you can do this. 612 00:31:55,236 --> 00:31:57,036 Speaker 3: Yeah, and he walks the walk, you know. 613 00:31:57,156 --> 00:32:01,316 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that kind of stuff is awesome to me 614 00:32:01,876 --> 00:32:04,796 Speaker 2: because at his funeral there will be thousands of people 615 00:32:04,796 --> 00:32:07,036 Speaker 2: who talk about how he believed in them at a 616 00:32:07,036 --> 00:32:09,436 Speaker 2: time when they did not believe in themselves, but not 617 00:32:09,476 --> 00:32:10,436 Speaker 2: by lowering standards. 618 00:32:11,156 --> 00:32:13,116 Speaker 3: And to me, that's the power of the mentor mindset. 619 00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:16,276 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean when you say mentor mindset, I think 620 00:32:16,316 --> 00:32:18,556 Speaker 1: it's it's not just for people who are playing the 621 00:32:18,636 --> 00:32:21,436 Speaker 1: role of formal mentors, right, I think it's for anyone 622 00:32:21,476 --> 00:32:25,036 Speaker 1: who interacts in any kind of coachy role. So it 623 00:32:25,036 --> 00:32:27,956 Speaker 1: could be a parent, or a sports coach or just 624 00:32:28,356 --> 00:32:28,876 Speaker 1: a friend. 625 00:32:29,076 --> 00:32:29,236 Speaker 2: Right. 626 00:32:29,476 --> 00:32:31,476 Speaker 1: And the other important thing is that I don't even 627 00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:34,596 Speaker 1: think this just applies to young people what you're putting 628 00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:38,836 Speaker 1: forth here seems so universally applicable and appealing. 629 00:32:39,516 --> 00:32:42,436 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that. So two things. 630 00:32:42,436 --> 00:32:44,956 Speaker 2: One is I did not call the book the mentor mindset. 631 00:32:45,156 --> 00:32:48,876 Speaker 2: I don't think people rushing around through the airport looking 632 00:32:48,916 --> 00:32:51,076 Speaker 2: at books are like, Oh, I want another book to 633 00:32:51,116 --> 00:32:53,636 Speaker 2: give me more homework to do, like another role. I 634 00:32:53,676 --> 00:32:56,316 Speaker 2: need to have another thing I could feel like I'm 635 00:32:56,316 --> 00:32:58,196 Speaker 2: failing at. And that's how I think a lot of 636 00:32:58,196 --> 00:33:03,556 Speaker 2: people look at mentoring. They think, Oh, it's a responsibility 637 00:33:03,596 --> 00:33:07,236 Speaker 2: that I begrudgingly take on to have coffee with someone 638 00:33:07,236 --> 00:33:09,956 Speaker 2: on Thursdays and fire hose them with career advice or 639 00:33:09,996 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 2: something like that. But that's not what I'm writing about. 640 00:33:12,116 --> 00:33:14,916 Speaker 2: What I'm writing about is a mindset in which every 641 00:33:14,956 --> 00:33:18,876 Speaker 2: interaction with someone might be that one status and respect 642 00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:22,876 Speaker 2: sensitive interaction that could turn them off from your field 643 00:33:22,996 --> 00:33:26,916 Speaker 2: or their future, or could be that inspirational moment. And 644 00:33:26,956 --> 00:33:30,436 Speaker 2: so it's a mindset that might play out over multiple 645 00:33:30,556 --> 00:33:33,356 Speaker 2: years or in a complex relationship. But in a lot 646 00:33:33,356 --> 00:33:35,316 Speaker 2: of examples I write about in the book, sometimes it's 647 00:33:35,316 --> 00:33:38,476 Speaker 2: like one conversation, Yeah, and the right amount of respect 648 00:33:38,596 --> 00:33:40,956 Speaker 2: and status at the right time from the right mentor 649 00:33:41,116 --> 00:33:43,756 Speaker 2: can I think, in my opinion, change your life. 650 00:33:43,916 --> 00:33:45,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think what you're saying is we 651 00:33:45,716 --> 00:33:50,116 Speaker 1: actually all have these implicit mentorship moments throughout each and 652 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:52,116 Speaker 1: every day, and we might not code them as such, 653 00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:53,956 Speaker 1: but they potentially are serving that role. 654 00:33:54,436 --> 00:33:57,676 Speaker 2: You know, if we just have a life philosophy where 655 00:33:57,716 --> 00:34:00,916 Speaker 2: we're just serious, we take other people seriously, and we 656 00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:05,516 Speaker 2: are supportive and we're understanding. If that's our philosophy, then 657 00:34:05,596 --> 00:34:08,476 Speaker 2: there will be you know, hundreds or thousands of moments 658 00:34:08,756 --> 00:34:11,396 Speaker 2: where maybe they'll remember the fact that. 659 00:34:11,316 --> 00:34:12,716 Speaker 3: We influence them, or maybe they won't. 660 00:34:13,076 --> 00:34:14,516 Speaker 2: But I kind of want to live in a world 661 00:34:14,516 --> 00:34:18,796 Speaker 2: where most funerals are people standing up to say this 662 00:34:18,876 --> 00:34:20,716 Speaker 2: person has no idea that they changed my life. 663 00:34:20,516 --> 00:34:21,236 Speaker 3: And here's what they did. 664 00:34:44,196 --> 00:34:47,236 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks so much for listening. Join me next week 665 00:34:47,276 --> 00:34:50,676 Speaker 1: when I speak to Sophia Sinclair, a writer and award 666 00:34:50,676 --> 00:34:54,316 Speaker 1: winning poet who grew up in a Rastafari family. Her 667 00:34:54,356 --> 00:34:56,676 Speaker 1: father was the head of the household, and he made 668 00:34:56,756 --> 00:35:01,036 Speaker 1: Sophia and her siblings follow a strict interpretation of Rastafari. 669 00:35:01,796 --> 00:35:05,076 Speaker 1: But as Sophia grew older, living under her father's rules 670 00:35:05,156 --> 00:35:06,916 Speaker 1: became suffocating. 671 00:35:06,796 --> 00:35:11,196 Speaker 4: And I thought, no that's not the future that I 672 00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:13,916 Speaker 4: want for myself, and I want to decide for myself 673 00:35:13,916 --> 00:35:17,436 Speaker 4: the woman that I am going to be, and so 674 00:35:17,596 --> 00:35:21,916 Speaker 4: I need to cut this future completely out of me 675 00:35:22,076 --> 00:35:23,996 Speaker 4: and out of my life entirely. 676 00:35:24,916 --> 00:35:27,836 Speaker 1: That's next week on A Slight Change of Plans. I'll 677 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:41,156 Speaker 1: see you then. A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, 678 00:35:41,276 --> 00:35:44,876 Speaker 1: and executive produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change 679 00:35:44,916 --> 00:35:49,076 Speaker 1: family includes our showrunner Tyler Green, our senior producer Kate 680 00:35:49,156 --> 00:35:54,076 Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan, our producer Brianna Garrett, and our engineer Ericawang. 681 00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:58,436 Speaker 1: Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song, and Ginger Smith 682 00:35:58,516 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 1: helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change of Plans is 683 00:36:01,836 --> 00:36:04,756 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries, so a big thanks to 684 00:36:04,796 --> 00:36:08,476 Speaker 1: everyone there, and of course a very special thanks to 685 00:36:08,556 --> 00:36:11,756 Speaker 1: Jimmy Lee. You can follow A Slight Change of Plans 686 00:36:11,796 --> 00:36:15,196 Speaker 1: on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See you next week.