WEBVTT - Strzok Threatened with Contempt Citation in Hearing 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:07.560 Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.440 day we bring you insight and analysis into the most 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:13.399 important legal news of the day. You can find more 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.040 episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:22.960 and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Today's congressional testimony 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:26.480 of Peter Struck, the FBI agent who exchanged anti Trump 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:29.920 text with a bureau lawyer, promised to be contentious, and 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:32.879 it lived up to its promise, breaking down in partisan 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.760 bickering among the committee members from the very first question. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:40.040 In an impassioned answer, Struck said his personal political beliefs 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:44.199 played no role in the investigation. I can't assure you, 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:48.560 Mr Chairman, at no time in any of these texts 0:00:48.680 --> 0:00:52.640 did those personal beliefs ever enter into the realm of 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.960 any action I took. Furthermore, this isn't just me sitting 0:00:57.000 --> 0:00:59.040 here telling you you don't have to take my word 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:03.120 for it and restep at every investigative decision. There are 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:07.920 multiple layers of people above me joining me now. Is 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:12.399 William Banks, professor at Syracuse University Law School. Bill Republicans 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.080 have been using these personal texts for their argument that 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.479 Mueller's investigation is biased for some time. Is there any 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.200 hope that this hearing won't turn into a partisan match 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:28.280 as it started out? I don't think so. June had 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:31.119 more fireworks this morning, and there we're on the mall 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.880 on the fourth of July. From the accounts that I read, 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:39.760 it's lining up that way. We already know as much 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:44.480 as we need to know about his behavior during the investigation. 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.600 We all recalled just a few weeks ago the in 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:52.720 the Inspector General report thoroughly reviewed uh the involvement of 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:58.960 Stroking and his UH then girlfriend page and the inappropriate text, 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.720 and he it in no uncertain terms that while the 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:07.720 behavior was improper and unprofessional, that there's no evidence that 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.679 it had any impact on the impartiality of the investigation. 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.360 So what's the point of this testimony. He already testified 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:22.200 in private, right, so you know? The Independent Council investigation 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:27.160 and the more investigation are separate, of course, from Congressional investigations. 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.880 They are conducted in the executive branch. Congress likes to 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.120 remind the American people and others in government that it 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.760 has at least as much authority to investigate the going 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:43.120 on in government as does the other political branch, and 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.919 that's what they're doing. Unfortunately, in this case, I believe 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:51.080 that it's been done to make partisan points and not 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:56.040 for any fruitful purpose. Did you hear anything that you 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:00.560 hadn't heard before about those texts? No, not sing at all. 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:05.200 In fact, you know there was. The investigation in the 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:10.280 Inspector General, of course, was lengthier, more deliberative, and indeed 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.440 the report was more thorough about the nature of the 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:17.079 texts and the context in which they were written than 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.360 anything that's going to come out in the hearing today. 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.840 What the Republicans wanted to demonstrate, I think at the 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.079 very beginning was that he Struck was much more heavily 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.400 involved in the Mueller investigation than uh then had been 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.120 led we have been led to believe before he asked 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.040 how many individuals he interviewed in the first eight days, 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.520 and things like that that get into the weeds of 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:45.760 an ongoing investigation, that he Struck the witness properly refused 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.080 to answer. A couple of things struck me as a lawyer, 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:52.040 and one was when Struck said that the FBI Council, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.200 as you mentioned, instructed him not to answer questions about 0:03:55.240 --> 0:04:01.000 the continuing investigation of Russian meddling, and then Republican Robert Goodlad, 0:04:01.000 --> 0:04:03.920 who was an attorney and chair of the House Judiciary Committee, 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.960 said Struck couldn't consult with the FBI's attorney and could 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:11.600 only consult with his personal attorney. It seemed to be 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.760 the FBI's privilege. He was asserting, are there any grounds 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.719 for saying you know which attorney you can consult with? Well? 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.360 There was, you know. Underlying that that debate, which is 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.880 a fair one, is the question of whether he was 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:30.400 there under subpoena or voluntarily. He says, uh that he 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:33.640 was there voluntarily. He'd agreed to appear before he ever 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:38.360 received a subpoena. So if he's there voluntarily, I suppose 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:42.279 there's there's more reason to argue that he should be 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:45.200 consulting only with his own a lawyer other than rather 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.239 than with the FBI. If he's responding subpoena, of course, 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.400 it's part of his job to ask for advice from 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:54.680 his employer about what he can say and what he 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.279 can So then that would cut against what good Lad said, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:01.880 because good landing that he was there nder subpoena. Yes, 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.440 it seems to be an easy thing to figure out 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:09.360 whether he was there under whether subpoena was served or not. Um. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.320 Something he did say that that also struck me was 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.479 he said he was one of a handful of people 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.200 who knew details of the Russian election interference and it's 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:22.680 possible connection to Trump camp and to the campaign. He 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.880 said this information had the potential to derail and quite 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.920 possibly defeat Mr Trump, but he didn't. He didn't even 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:32.880 cross his mind to expose that. Do we know what 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:37.440 he's referring to their No, we don't for sure, although 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.320 given the timing, we can surmise that he was aware 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:45.800 of the electronic surveillance that may have been carried on 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:50.480 in June and July of those who were involved in 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:54.799 in the Trump campaign because of their involvement themselves with 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.599 with with foreign entities Russia and the Ukraine. We know 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.839 more about the nature of those now than we did that. 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.839 Where does this leave the Muller investigation? Will this have 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:12.440 any more effect on the Republicans ratcheting up of the 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.799 attempts to derail the Muller investigation? Will this give credence 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:20.440 to either side? I don't think so. You know, it's 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:24.520 been relatively quiet lately, and and here we are in July, 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:29.120 and soon the Congress is going to take their summer recess, 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.240 and I think this will quiet down and Mueller will 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.880 will continue on. We might think that he's getting close 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.640 to the end of his investigation, but we don't know 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:41.520 that for sure. But I doubt there'll be more fireworks 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.200 unless something happens, say around the Labor day period when 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:49.359 they when they come back from recess. I like to 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:52.080 to change gears just a little bit and talk about 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:57.440 Michael Cohen, Trump's personal lawyer. He's been He's been doing 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.720 things that sort of don't fit in with the way 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.960 he has behaved up until this point, one being that 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:07.560 he talked with ABC. And is this an outreach to 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:11.960 the prosecutor's office saying that, you know, basically indicating that 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:13.840 he wants to turn or do you really need to 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.520 do outreach to the prosecutor's office? You don't. I mean, 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.680 it's hard to read Cohen, and there have been so many, uh, 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:26.160 permutations and changes in the narrative along the way. But indeed, 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.360 you know, the longer this goes on, in the morning, 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.440 thanks pile up against him. He may be looking for 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.760 ways out and ways to make a deal and talking 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.960 to the media. Is there's one way to hasten that process, 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:42.800 I suppose, but you know it's uh, it's hard to tell. 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.440 In his case, again, it may just have been a 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.360 slow day at ABC. Well, Um, what what sort of 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.280 puzzles me is what I mean, we assume that his 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.600 attorneys are that at least his attorneys who are representing 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:05.400 him criminally, they are talking with the prosecutors about the case. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.400 So it's just it's so people are saying, well, is 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.200 there going to be a deal, And maybe this is 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:12.960 outreach for a deal. I mean, isn't that something that 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.840 you discuss with the prosecutors. Yes, it is and and 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.160 and I assume that is going on. And why you know, 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.600 Cohen may just needed to get some attention on that 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.800 particular day. Uh. You know, how much of the allegations 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:32.440 against Colin are amenable to deal making is hard to 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:34.680 know at this point, but certainly they're talking about some 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.400 of the issues. And another odd thing is he has 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:42.040 hired Lanny Davis, who is known he wrote a book 0:08:42.120 --> 0:08:46.400 about how the election was stolen from Hillary Clinton by 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:51.720 the revelations of FBI Director uh Comy, and now he's 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:57.720 representing Michael Cohen at what you know, just just for 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.360 a second think about it. Tell us what you're thoughts 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:05.520 are about why, well, uh, success rate? I think you know, 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:09.319 there are a few high profile lawyers and these politically 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:13.600 connected cases who have done especially well. I think Davis 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:17.280 is a very good reputation, and so I think which 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:22.000 side of the partisan line Cohen is on matters very 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.240 well when it's his own skin. And the other thing 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:30.280 is Lennie Davis is has connections to the Clintons. He does. 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.040 It's ironic to be sure, But again, you know, he 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:36.240 closed the Clinton file. Now he's opening a Colon file, 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:39.800 and he's got other files. And that's that's what lawyers 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.360 in this business do. Yes, Well, it's it's it gets 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.000 getting more and more complicated, and it seems like there's 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:48.319 a lot of overlap recently. Well thanks Bill. As always, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:52.000 that's William Banks. He's a professor at Syracuse University Law School. 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.839 Democrats are a value to throw roadblocks in the way 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.240 of a confirmation of Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh. One 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.280 of the groups mounting the fight is Demand Justice, joining 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.160 me as Christopher Kang, Chief Council of Demand Justice and 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:14.400 former Deputy Council to President Barack Obama Chris Only conservatives 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.160 will be nominated by President Trump. So why fight Kavanaugh 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.240 when you could end up with someone even more conservative 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:24.400 next time? Well, I'm not sure that we could end 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.120 up with somebody even more conservative next time, given Brett 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.240 Kavanaugh's demonstrated record. And so we're going to fight this 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:34.400 nomination because Brett Kavanaugh's record demonstrates that he is anti healthcare, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:37.480 he's anti abortion, and he thinks Trump is above the law. 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:39.560 And these are the values and the principles that we 0:10:39.600 --> 0:10:41.640 need to stand up and fight for, regardless of what 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.640 theoretically might happen down the line. So from the y 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.640 to the how Republicans have the votes? Justice Neil Gorsich 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:52.280 was confirmed by a vote of fifty ft. How can 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:56.079 you beat that Republicans do not have the votes? Republicans 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:00.000 currently have a majority of Senators. But when this nomination 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:03.400 and unfolds, when Judge Kavanaugh's full record comes out, when 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.960 the one million documents that are sitting in the Bush 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:09.080 Presidential Library come out from his time there and reveal 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:11.880 even more about his thinking and his analysis when it 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.680 comes to these critical legal issues, I think you'll see 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.800 the tide change. They are currently a majority of Senators 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.720 who believe that healthcare for people with pre existing conditions 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.959 should be maintained and not as the Trump administration is 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.480 trying to do taken away in the courts. And there 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.199 are majority of people who believe that Roe versus Way 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:33.000 it should not be overturned. These are critical issues that 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.080 I think we can change the tide on, and when 0:11:35.080 --> 0:11:37.760 the time comes for a vote, Judge Kavanaugh can and 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.120 should be defeated. Let's skip over the Republican votes for 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.000 a moment and talk about the three red state Democrats 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.400 who voted for Gorsage. Joe Mansion of West Virginia has 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.439 said that Kavanaugh has all the right qualities and high 0:11:50.440 --> 0:11:54.079 moral standards. Can you keep him and the other Democrats 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:57.400 from voting for Kavanaugh to protect themselves at the ballot box? 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.000 If you just look at Judge Kavanaugh his record resume, 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:04.679 there's no question that he has the qualifications. But qualifications 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:06.720 are more than what school you went to and where 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:10.080 you worked as your last job. When Senator Manson and 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:13.240 other senators look at his record, they look at President 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:17.319 Trump's litmus test when it came to overturning the Affordable 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.800 Care Act and its critical healthcare protections. I think he's 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:23.000 not going to have a very hard time politically going 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.360 back and saying I am continuing to stand up for 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.000 all of the West Virginians who have pre existing who 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.840 have pre existing conditions and are receiving healthcare, and that 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.120 would be taken away if Judge Kavanaugh were confirmed. We're 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:39.760 hearing the same things from the two Republican female senators, 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:43.959 Susan Collins and Lisa Rakowski that we heard when came 0:12:44.040 --> 0:12:46.600 up for a nomination. They wanted to make sure he'll 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.960 follow precedent and not overturn Roe v. Wade. But Gorsuch, 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:54.839 his votes show that whatever nominee says, he's been vetted 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:59.280 by the federal society and will follow his past. I 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:01.719 completely agree with you, and I think that that will 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:04.400 be true of Judge Kavanaugh as well. And Judge Kavanaugh's 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.720 record goes even further than that. Just last year, he 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.400 delivered a speech in which he praised Justice rank with 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:13.160 dissent in row. I think we know where he's headed 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.880 and what his views are with respect to precedent and 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.880 with respect to Roll versus Wade and I think that 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.960 when Senator Collins and Senator Makowski and other senators have 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:23.960 a chance to question him and examine that record, they're 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.920 going to understand that if he is confirmed, Roll versus 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.000 Wade will in fact be overturned. So what is your 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.680 group going to do? Concretely? Where are you going to 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.360 be spending your money? How much of it? What's the plan? 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.640 We already have ads up in Maine and Alaska, will 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.960 have other ads up going as soon as the end 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.160 of the week talking about these issues, talking about healthcare, 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:48.400 talking about protecting healthcare for people with pre existing conditions, 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.000 talking about the fact that Roll versus Wade is on 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:54.880 the brink of being overturned, and encouraging people to contact 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.760 their senators and make their voices known. We are. We've 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.160 announced that our overall budget for ads will be five 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.800 million dollars, and I think you'll see that spread out 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:04.880 from now until the time that this vote is taken. 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.840 How does your budget compare to the budgets of the 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:12.040 conservative groups that have made this You know, for years 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.840 and years have been fighting to have a more conservative court. Well, 0:14:16.880 --> 0:14:19.760 we'll never match the conservative groups dollar for dollar. But 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.960 I also don't think we need to when the American people, 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:25.320 by a majority of two, by a margin of two 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.360 to one, believe that ro versus wage should not be overturned, 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.160 and by a majority of two to one do not 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:32.920 believe the President Trump should be taking away health care 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.480 for people with pre existing conditions. We're gonna see a 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.600 lot of grassroots energy and activism come out, and I 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:42.200 think that people's voices, their telephone calls, they're marching in 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.440 the streets. I think that's going to overwhelm any money disadvantage. 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:47.880 We might have about a minute left here. You helped 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:52.800 oversee the confirmations of Justice Elena Kagan and Justice Sonya 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:55.440 Soto mayor are you gonna be taking part in the 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:58.920 prep of Democratic senators for these hearings or how are 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.600 you going to be taking part in that? I mean, 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.680 I think we leave it to the Democratic senators and 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:06.480 their staff and the legal experts that they can sult 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:08.920 to figure out exactly what lines of questioning and issues 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:10.800 that they might be interested in. But I will say 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.720 one of the things that I'm helping to lift up, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.360 based on my experience with Atlanta Kagan's nomination, is again 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:19.520 these documents at the White House the Clinton administration. The 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.640 Clinton Library turned over a hundred and seventy thousand pages 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.800 of documents from Atlanta Kagan's confirmation process of what the 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:29.760 Senate asked for on a bipartisan basis. There are more 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.160 than a million documents out there in the Bush Library 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.760 for Judge Kavanaugh, and I'm helping China light on that 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.160 to make sure that the entire Senate gets the documents 0:15:37.160 --> 0:15:39.920 it needs in order to make a decision. Thanks Chris, 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:42.320 I'll note that you change your Twitter name to Chris 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:46.840 hashtag stop Kavanaugh Kang. That's Christopher Kangy's Chief Council of 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:50.840 Demand Justice and former Deputy Council to President Obama. Thanks 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.160 for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:57.440 and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and 0:15:57.480 --> 0:16:01.240 on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I am June Brolso 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:08.960 this is Bloomberg m HM.