WEBVTT - Laid Off Grown-Ups 0:00:03.360 --> 0:00:06.279 Ruby. 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:10.080 There's nothing wrong about applying for benefits. You pay into 0:00:10.119 --> 0:00:12.360 them during your employment. You need to get them if 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:14.320 you need them. That's what it's there for. A lot 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:16.280 of people need to just like set their pride aside 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:18.440 and get your unemployment benefits if you're eligible. 0:00:20.040 --> 0:00:24.160 So let's say your boss schedules a mysterious quick check 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.160 in for four point thirty on a Friday. 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.240 Immediate stomach drop. No, nobody has ever heard quick check 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:33.879 in and thought, oh good, probably a surprise raise I 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:35.680 was hoping for, Not even once. 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.400 It usually means a layoff, and right now layoffs are 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.800 hitting a lot of industries, so the chances are someone 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.200 you know who's gone through it recently raises hand. 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:46.800 Yeah. 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:49.280 And sometimes it's not even a quick check in with 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.320 your manager you find out via email. Quite rude, rude, 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:56.080 very rude. Which is why today we're talking about what 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.440 to actually do if you get laid off, like the 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:01.560 practical stuff that nobody explains in the moment because your 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:03.480 brain is too swirly to think straight. 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:09.000 You're thinking severance unemployment health insurance LinkedIn updates, whether or 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.400 not you should panic pivot to a new career. 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:15.080 Maybe, and how to handle the emotional side without immediately 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.920 spiraling into well, I guess it's seventy cent ramen for 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:18.640 me from now on. 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:23.000 And honestly, getting laid off can feel deeply personal, even 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:24.880 when it's through no fault of your own. 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:29.680 Welcome back to grown Up Stuff, the podcast where we 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:31.639 figure out all the things you feel like you should 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.119 know by now but maybe don't because I know I don't. 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:35.880 I'm Leah Palmery. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:37.000 And I'm Matt Stillow. 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:40.760 So Today the grown up Guide to layoffs, What to 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:43.160 do first, what not to do, and how to make 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.640 a plan when your life suddenly gets very weird. Our 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:49.800 guest today is Page Sparks from Sparks Legal, an employment 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:51.840 lawyer who litigates cases for employees. 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.960 But first, a quick disclaimer before we get started. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:57.920 I just want to say these are all just my thoughts, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.080 and these are general questions we're answering. If you do 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:02.720 you have specific legal situation that you want legal advice on, 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:04.520 definitely check with the lawyer in your state. 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:05.640 I love it. 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:20.160 I could have set it better myself. Well so. 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:24.000 The Bureau of Labor Statistics says somewhere between fourteen and 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:26.600 twenty million people in the US get laid off or 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.960 let go every single year. And that number isn't just 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.080 the massive corporate layoffs you see in the headlines. It 0:02:33.160 --> 0:02:37.600 includes everything from seasonal jobs ending, to companies downsizing, to 0:02:37.960 --> 0:02:39.440 individual employees getting fired. 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:41.560 Basically, this is way. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.680 More common than most of us realize until, of course 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:44.959 it happens to us. 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.639 Once you are laid off from a job, your head 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:51.800 is very swirly and there's a lot going on, and 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:53.640 you just have to put one foot in front. 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:53.880 Of the other. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:57.919 So what should you absolutely not do in the first 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.360 forty eight hours after being laid off? And that's both 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.160 financially and emotionally great question. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:05.200 So the first thing you should not do if you 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.040 get noticed that you're being laid off is do not panic. 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:10.760 This is not a scarlet letter on you. This is 0:03:10.919 --> 0:03:13.280 actually quite common and the worst thing you can do 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.600 to yourself is panic and spiral from there. Instead, a 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.560 process you can start in is like review the paperwork. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:19.560 They gave you. 0:03:19.800 --> 0:03:21.720 Did they give you Cobra paperwork? Are you going to 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.520 opt into that? There's no need to panic. I know 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.919 it's easier said than done when you are in that situation, 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:29.600 but it's really a common thing and it can be 0:03:29.639 --> 0:03:31.240 a lot less scarier than people think. 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.760 Okay, COBRA paperwork. So that has to do with health 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.480 insurance coverage, right, Can you explain that a little bit 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:38.520 more so. 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:41.840 Cobra is basically, if you get notified to your employments 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:43.840 ending what do they call it a qualifying event. So 0:03:44.120 --> 0:03:45.920 if the certain events happen, they have to give you 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:48.920 COBRA notice and so using layoff as the example, they 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.960 have to give you the COBRA notice within a certain 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.800 amount of time. And it's basically a higher premium you're 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.720 paying to get your health insurance continued out. It can 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:59.080 be up to eighteen months. I've seen it a little 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:01.160 bit less. It's going to be depending on what you 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.760 agree to. You have to opt into it. But in 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.200 order to opt in, it's the employer's burden. It's their obligation. 0:04:07.280 --> 0:04:09.680 They have to provide you all the information and the 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:13.000 COBRA paperwork on what to do, the timelines, the deadlines, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:16.120 and when to opt in, and like the actual dollar amounts. Now, 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:19.000 a lot of these mom and pop places aren't doing 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.599 this lately. Yeah, and so there can be penalties. By 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.600 the day they could have like one hundred dollars fine 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.839 per day if this is an issue, and reimbursement for 0:04:26.920 --> 0:04:28.840 costs if you have a lapse in coverage and you're 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.240 required to pay something out of pocket or you have bills. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.200 Are there deadlines that people should be aware of when 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:35.840 it comes to continuing benefits. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.000 So if you want to continue your benefits through Cobra, 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.760 you do have usually sixty days to opt in through 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.599 that paperwork if you want to extend the benefits. Now, 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.960 sometimes we see the employer doesn't provide the paper work 0:04:47.960 --> 0:04:50.640 in time, so you can continue it from the date 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:51.560 you're finally giving it. 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.080 I didn't even know what it was, so like, I 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:55.760 just think it's an important thing for people that know 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.920 that if you do get laid off, there is a 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.400 path to continue your healthcare, not only for you but 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.440 for your family. It's a little bit of a difficult 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.360 process to navigate, but it is there. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.960 Yeah, no wonder why it's named after a snake because 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:08.839 it's very slippery. 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:10.600 True and very scary. 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:15.000 But yeah, yes, but actually they should be more afraid 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.360 of you with the Cobra if they mess up to Obra. 0:05:17.560 --> 0:05:19.160 But yeah, that is a good name for it. 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.360 It's a scary situation and it's expensive, so you don't 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.359 have to do the COBRA. You could look at marketplace 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.680 options or other options because it is expensive, but it's 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.320 better for some individuals to do that instead of not 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:32.680 having coverage and then you have all these medical debt 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:33.320 out of pocket. 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:36.680 Yeah, and you may need to change your provider depending 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:38.839 on what's available in the marketplace or what you can afford, 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:40.440 and so yeah, to be able to stick with the. 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.400 Same insurance can be super helpful. 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.479 So that said, I think a lot of people feel 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:47.560 like they don't have any sort of rights. So what 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:50.640 is important for people to know? What rights do they 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.040 have when they're laid off. 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:55.120 One of the rights you have if your employer's eligible 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:58.320 is getting COBRA for an example. Your rights don't just 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:01.240 disappear when you're laid off. Still have employment rights as 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.680 an employee. You just have maybe what we would view 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.640 as less compared to the employer. Especially most states are 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:08.960 at will employment. That means you can be fired or 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:11.400 laid off anytime for any reason, as long as it's 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.080 not an illegal reason. An example we want to look 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.760 out for is when we're looking at even mass layoffs, 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.960 is that they're not selecting everyone with FMLA, and so 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.600 your rights don't disappear just because you get noticed you're 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:24.840 getting laid off. It's just there is a process you 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:27.400 have to follow. But if you have engaged in any 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:32.680 protected activity like reporting discrimination, retaliation, filing a whistleblower complaint, 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.520 or a worker's compensation claim for example, and then you're 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:37.600 laid off, then we may want to look at it 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:39.160 a little further because we want to make sure you're 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.440 not waiving any of those rights if you sign to 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:42.880 accept the severance, for example. 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:49.320 So let's take a quick second to define FMLA. That 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.360 stands for the Family and Medical Leave Act, and basically 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:55.200 it's a law that says if you're dealing with a 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:57.560 serious health issue or caring for a close family member 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.440 who is you may be entitled to take on paid 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.440 job protected leave without losing your position. It can also 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.520 apply after having a baby or adopting a child. Now 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:10.440 there are rules around who qualifies and how big the 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:13.200 company has to be, but the main idea is your 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.400 employer can't just write you off because you need time 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.200 away for legitimate medical or family reasons. 0:07:20.600 --> 0:07:24.960 How does a layoff differ legally from being fired for cause? 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.600 And what are the implications because they both feel bad, 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:32.440 But like, what is actually the difference between those two categories. 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.400 Sure, it's never fun to end your employment no matter 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:37.440 what happens, like it's always going to be a transitional 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:39.760 period and it's always the unknown as scary. But it 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.320 is better to be laid off than fired for cause. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.240 If you're fired for cause, you usually cannot get benefits 0:07:45.280 --> 0:07:48.640 like unemployment benefits. If you're laid off due to no 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:50.760 fault of your own, you can apply for that and 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.040 as long as there's no issue, you probably receive it. 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:56.160 So I do think it is better, especially in a resume. 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:56.880 A lot of. 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:59.880 Employers are way more understanding of a company layoff maybe 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:02.480 gap in a resume instead of you explaining why you 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:05.880 got fired for popping off or policy violation or attendance 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:08.600 or something. I do think a lot of employers view 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.000 it a little more favorably than if you were terminated 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:11.480 for cause. 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.040 Popping off is the legal HR term that they use 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:18.080 when they have to fire somebody to let's just be 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.840 clear on that, right. I have popped off myself, so 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.640 I tell you it's not fun. There's consequences sometimes, you know, 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.880 but it's more common than a lot of people think 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.000 there's nothing to be ashamed of if you're laid off. 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.560 It's very normal. But I think that's why people view 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.719 it differently. As far as from the employer end of it, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:36.760 it's a little more understandable. You had nothing to do 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:38.200 with it, You couldn't help it, right. 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.880 I wonder also, like within those two things, because it 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:42.760 does seem like you could get into like a he said, 0:08:42.840 --> 0:08:45.640 she said thing where an employer is saying they fired 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:49.080 you for cause, but maybe there was underlying circumstances that 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.400 aren't coming to light. Is there like a way to 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.440 like fight that process if one person says one thing 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:55.079 versus another. 0:08:55.640 --> 0:08:56.280 Absolutely? 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.560 So. I'll use unemployment benefits for an example. So if 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:01.760 you apply, which I would immediately do that, if you 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:03.439 get noticed that you're about to be laid off, I 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.439 would immediately apply for unemployment benefits because that can take 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:08.880 a while, the process can be slow, it will vary 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.920 on how your state is processing things. But in response 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.000 to that, once you get that process started, the employer 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.160 will get the opportunity to respond and say if you 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:20.959 were fired for cause, now when you fill out the paperwork, 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.600 I would be as specific as possible with the timeline 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.000 and attach the layoff documents like the notification. If you're 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.559 able to do that that way, you're kind of starting 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:31.960 setting the scene of I was not fired for cause, 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.280 I was notified on this date, I'm being terminated, I'm 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:36.720 eligible for benefits if they can test it. 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.600 They have to be able to back up what they say. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:41.440 They can't just say no, you shouldn't get benefits because 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:42.480 you're fired for cause. 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.960 Period. They have to provide reasons why. Now. 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.319 I think that a lot of employers will probably have 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.120 a process and step in place that is going to 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:52.640 flag any unemployment claims from a layoff that they already 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.840 knew was coming. But for example, like with my employment cases, 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.400 that happens all the time where we say he was 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.800 fired because you wouldnt accommodate him, and they say, no, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:04.360 he got too many attendance points. Well, the employer responds, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.680 and then you can do what's called a rebuttal. You 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:08.600 have a window of time to do that, so make 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:10.760 sure you don't miss it. You get noticed in the mail, 0:10:10.880 --> 0:10:13.400 send your appeal window, and then the next step would 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:13.880 be a hearing. 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.240 Because I can understand, like I'm sure most corporations it's 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:21.000 a pretty standard practice and there's all this documentation and stuff, 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:23.600 but I'm thinking like for smaller companies where there's only 0:10:23.640 --> 0:10:27.040 a few employees that could maybe not have as much documentation, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:29.680 and then there's more personal relationships kind of come into 0:10:29.720 --> 0:10:31.040 the fray and so interesting. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:33.960 Yes, yeah, we see that a lot. Not to segue 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:35.880 into too much personal stuff, but I love when a 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:38.640 company sends a non lawyer in that situation to represent 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:40.440 the company, because I'm like, Okay, I get to be 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.640 psycho for an hour, and my therapist that I can 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:44.600 because it's for work, so buckle up. 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:45.640 But yeah, some. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:48.720 Definitely do or they'll send their poor HR person who 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:50.720 knows that stuff probably better than I do, but they 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:52.360 don't know how to do the questions in the lawn, 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:54.760 like what the burden and the statute is, So anyone 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.040 who's diying and unemployment appeal again, this is just informational 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:00.400 only if it's a phone hearing, ride it all down, 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.600 look up the statute. That way you know what your 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.040 requirements are to prove. So if you're strying to say 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.560 you get unemployment benefits and they say you're fired for cause, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.440 google that write it all in a word document including 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.640 everything you want to say. That way, when you're panicking 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.120 on the phone, you can just read it and you 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.920 already did all your homework. But that's an example of 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.439 you have the same resources going into it as the 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.559 HR person showing up for the company. But yeah, sometimes 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.000 the smaller companies they just have to make do with 0:11:25.040 --> 0:11:26.959 what they have if they even show up. A lot 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:28.360 of the times they don't even show up to the 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:29.000 appeal hearing. 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.760 I'm always here for a time for page to pop 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:36.600 off legally, so semi crazy, yes, exactly. One other element 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:39.520 I want to talk about too is severance. So a 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:42.439 lot of times if you are laid off, you will 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.600 get some severance hopefully. Is severance pay required or is 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.640 it just like a oh, look, how nice we are. 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:50.640 We're giving you some money because we're changing your whole 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.560 entire life right now. How much is a company required 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:57.400 to actually provide that versus is it just a nice to. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.600 Have more of the second? Unless you have a contract 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.400 saying that you're entitled to employment during a certain time 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.520 period or some other kind of contractual obligation, or maybe 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.280 a state law. I know some states are kind of 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.640 the Wild West, like California, and Washington State may do 0:12:11.679 --> 0:12:14.320 this a little differently, but normally you are not entitled 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.599 to receive a severance of employment ends unless you have 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.560 a contract stating otherwise. Now, if you're offered severance, that's 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:21.280 always great, like you said, a nice thing to have, 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.760 and usually it's like one pay period, sometimes less, sometimes 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:27.280 a little more. I would say that's pretty average. Now, 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:30.080 the only way we can really negotiate the severance is 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.079 if we have claims to leverage with it. So like 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:34.880 those examples I was saying earlier, if you reported sexual 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:36.920 harassment and then you could notice you're being laid off 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.839 two days later, obviously we're gonna want to leverage that 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:41.880 because that can add more value to the claim. Because 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:44.800 you engage in protected activity, now we can allege retaliation. 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:49.120 But your average person usually that hasn't happened. This usually 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.000 comes out of nowhere, and unfortunately, you usually do not 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.400 have a right to severance. There's some like myths going 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.079 around online that's like you get X amount of months 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:01.400 for every year you've been working. There's no such thing. 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:03.640 That'd be nice if they all followed it. There's no 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:08.640 like federal guideline or regulation requiring that though unfortunately, is. 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.720 There something that you should look for or negotiate within 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:13.760 a severance. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.440 Package before you sign a severance obviously read it very carefully, 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.600 know what you're agreeing to. I would not sign a 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.480 severance agreement that didn't have mutual protection. So what you 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:25.000 want to look for is that if it's this confidentiality 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:27.800 in there, both parties should have equal duty and burden 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.080 under that. It shouldn't just be one sided. Now the 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.400 company's writing it, so they will always want to write 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:35.760 it in their favor. It may say like non disparagement, 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.120 but no one there is being limited from disparaging you 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.840 or things like that. So if you want to suggest 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.440 changes like that, you can always respond. You don't have 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:46.240 to sign it as is. Just know that usually under 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.600 contract law, making changes like that is considered a counter offer, 0:13:49.720 --> 0:13:52.760 So they could revoke the severance altogether. I think that'd 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.720 be kind of unusual if we're dealing with like a 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.319 mass scale layoff, because they just want to button everything 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:58.600 up and move on. 0:13:59.040 --> 0:13:59.800 But it's possible. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.400 So if I was someone who wanted to change us 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.840 to an agreement, what's the saying. It's like hungry mouse, 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:06.839 don't get fed unless you ask or something like that. 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.400 I would ask, Squeaky Wheel, Yeah. 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:10.559 Squeaky Wheel gets the oil. 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.760 Yes, And so I would always ask, and probably the 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.080 worst case scenario is they're like, no, you can sign 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.440 it as is, though you have until Friday or whatever. 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.880 That's what I would do if it had any questionable terms. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:24.600 I'd also look at the governing law of the severance agreement. 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.760 So usually any contract, if it's written by not AI 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:30.440 and like a real lawyer or person, it's going to 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.400 have a governing law. It'll be like, for example, here, 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.720 it'd be like this severance agreement is governed by the 0:14:34.720 --> 0:14:37.560 state law of Missouri or something like that, and so 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:39.760 we want to make sure that if you're signing that, 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:41.360 I would only want to sign that if it was 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.400 in the state I was in keep an eye out 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:45.360 for that, because when we're looking at these bigger companies, 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.240 if you're working in Missouri and you sign a contract 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.640 governed by the laws of California, if you ever want 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.120 to enforce that contract or the company wants to enforce 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.080 that contract ensue you, it's going to be in California. 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:57.600 So it's just like one of the things I would 0:14:57.600 --> 0:14:59.640 look at. I'd also keep an eye out for arbitration. 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:02.600 Agree men's being hidden in there. I've been seeing that 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:04.680 a lot in the severance that if you do bring 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.520 an enforcement action, they're trying to force arbitration now too. 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.680 And just to go a little bit deeper on that, 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.000 companies are adding language that says if you try to 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.320 sue them or bring some kind of legal claim later, 0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:23.280 you have to go through arbitration instead of taking it 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.720 to court. And while arbitration might sound nicer than going 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.160 to full blown court, it can really change the playing field. 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.840 I mean usually it means the case stays private, there's 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.520 less discovery, and you're not appearing before a jury of 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.520 your peers. So it's one of those clauses people tend 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:40.840 to skim past when they're stressed and just trying to 0:15:40.880 --> 0:15:43.160 sign the damn paperwork. But it can matter a lot 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:44.920 down the road. If there are any big issues with 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.040 your employment. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:51.160 How about can you negotiate a severance after you've already 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:53.440 been laid off? And also, as you were talking, I 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.480 was wondering, should I be thinking, I know this is 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.000 maybe like gloomy, but a little bit along like a 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.720 prenup conversation, should I be thinking about including things when 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.120 I'm being hired that then says, oh, if you ever 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:08.800 lay me off, you have to give me x amount 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:10.720 for X amount of years I've been here or something. 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:11.280 You know what I mean? 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.840 Like, how can I be thinking about negotiating severance both 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:18.320 before I even start the job and then after I've 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:19.240 been laid off too? 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.280 Yes, we love a proactive queen. So what I would 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.680 do is, if you're going to be negotiating a contract 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.760 to start employment, absolutely you want to include those things 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:30.160 in there, like a notice period. We have been able 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.920 to negotiate severance just on that alone. Like if I 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:34.920 have a doctor who comes to me and they have 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:37.280 one hundred and eighty day notice period between ninety to 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.280 one hundred and eighty days a standard in that industry, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.640 if the hospital wants to get rid of them earlier 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.240 and they break that contract, that's a claim we can 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:47.160 use to leverage higher severance payout. So those are terms 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:49.000 that you can request as part of that, and I 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:51.680 wouldn't put it like personally, I would make it a 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:54.200 notice period because that's where we're going to be able 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.160 to use it more broadly other than just like in 0:16:57.200 --> 0:16:59.400 the event of layoff. Because they're going to call it 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:01.440 a restruct sure or something, you know what I mean. 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:03.040 So what I would do is just be like, in 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:05.959 the event employment end is this is what the notice period. 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.439 You could negotiate that, but it really just depends on 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.560 what you're being paid the notice period, and you can't 0:17:12.560 --> 0:17:14.879 bleed a turn up. If the company is really folding 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:17.199 up and they cannot offer you more, you're not going 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:18.919 to be able to get more money. It really depends 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.200 on all the circumstances of the situation. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:25.360 Okay, so let's just say we've got severance figured out, 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.080 or there isiness everance or whatever, you've been laid off. 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.119 What happens at that point to any unused PTO paid 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.040 time off, any bonuses that they're in your contract. Let's 0:17:35.040 --> 0:17:36.679 say that you get fired like three quarters of the 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.200 way through the year and you've contributed to those sales goals, 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:41.800 any like equity or like stock options that you have 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:43.760 in the company that you're employed with. 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:45.040