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Speaker 1: Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season

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Speaker 1: three of Betrayal is now a docu series on Hulu.

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Speaker 1: It's the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor

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Speaker 1: who betrayed them. See the voices You've come to know

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Speaker 1: in Betrayal Under his Eye, streaming now on Hulu.

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Speaker 2: It was just my daughter and me, the TV and

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Speaker 2: the laundry, and I just remember being on the ground,

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Speaker 2: totally hyperventilating, having the only panic attack I've ever had

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Speaker 2: in my life. If this could be true, and I

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Speaker 2: could have no idea, how on earth would I ever

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Speaker 2: know who the monsters were.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

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Speaker 1: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 1: change everything. Today, we have a story about family, about

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Speaker 1: what it means to love someone and to lose them,

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Speaker 1: not to death, but to something much harder to talk about.

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Speaker 2: In some ways, it feels harder to grieve for a

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Speaker 2: person who isn't dead.

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Speaker 1: That's doctor Jill Stoddard. She's a clinical psychologist, a mother,

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Speaker 1: a woman with a close knit family and what she

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Speaker 1: always thought was a safe, ordinary childhood.

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Speaker 2: So I grew up in a suburb of Boston, stereotypical,

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Speaker 2: middle class, waspy kind of upbringing. Mom was always home

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Speaker 2: when we got home from school, and even though Dad

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Speaker 2: worked hard, he was always home by six o'clock for dinner,

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Speaker 2: so it felt like a very normal, intact family.

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Speaker 1: Jill was the oldest. Then came her brother John, who

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Speaker 1: was two years younger, and then when Jill was seven,

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Speaker 1: her youngest brother was born.

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Speaker 2: When my little brother was born, my mom would always say, well,

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Speaker 2: we can't very well name you Jill, John and Bob.

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Speaker 3: It just doesn't sound good.

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Speaker 2: And so she named him jim And then all of

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Speaker 2: our you know, holiday cards, everything from that point on,

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Speaker 2: whenever my parents signed it, it was their first names

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Speaker 2: and the three jas.

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Speaker 1: From the time he was a baby, Jimmy stood out

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Speaker 1: in the best way.

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Speaker 2: We were all very average looking brunettes, brown hair, brown eyes,

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Speaker 2: and he had this bright orange hair and bright blue

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Speaker 2: eyes and freckles, and you know, he was so just

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Speaker 2: stunning looking and adorable.

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Speaker 3: I feel like he kind of always had a little

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Speaker 3: bit of drool on.

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Speaker 2: His face for some reason when he was little, and

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Speaker 2: people would stop us on the street to comment on

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Speaker 2: his hair and how cute he was.

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Speaker 1: Jill adored her little brother. He wasn't just a cute baby,

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Speaker 1: he was a happy baby.

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Speaker 2: He was just this like very lovable, goofy, funny little guy.

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Speaker 2: And one of his favorite things that he would do

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Speaker 2: on command is we would say happy face, and he

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Speaker 2: would make this like very big, bright, smiley happy face,

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Speaker 2: and though we'd say mad face, and then he'd make

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Speaker 2: this very mad face and it just cracked us up.

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Speaker 1: As he got older, Jimmy clearly looked up to Jill

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Speaker 1: and John. They would lovingly tease him, and he played

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Speaker 1: along too.

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Speaker 2: We would yell the word servant, like servant, and then

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Speaker 2: you would hear bitter better, bitter better, bitter better, bitter better,

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Speaker 2: and he would just come running and you'd say, go

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Speaker 2: make me some chocolate milk, and he would like happily

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Speaker 2: go run and make chocolate milk.

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Speaker 3: Because he he was like just happy to be included.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: When the family got a camcorder, the kids' film skits

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Speaker 1: and commercials.

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Speaker 2: One of the skits we would do was mister Rogers,

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Speaker 2: and he would play mister mcpheey and ring the doorbell

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Speaker 2: and say speedy delivery, speedy delivery, and was just like

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Speaker 2: always up for anything.

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Speaker 1: Having Jimmy intew made everything more fun. Besides his red hair,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy's most defining feature was his laugh. Not only was

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Speaker 1: he hilarious, but he laughed really easily, and that just

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Speaker 1: always felt so good that even if you're not a

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Speaker 1: person that everyone thinks of as being really funny, when

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Speaker 1: you were with him, you felt really funny. Despite their

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Speaker 1: seven year age difference, Jill loved his company. I don't

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Speaker 1: ever remember there being a time where I was like,

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Speaker 1: you're annoying, get away from me. I think even as

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Speaker 1: we both got older, he was still my baby brother,

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Speaker 1: and we were very, very close, and he was always

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Speaker 1: just sweet and fun and funny. And I'm sure that

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Speaker 1: there were probably times that, you know, I closed my

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Speaker 1: door and was like, get away from me, But those

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Speaker 1: moments aren't the ones she remembers. When Jill thinks back

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Speaker 1: on her childhood, there's Jimmy in the frame every time,

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Speaker 1: with his messy red hair and his huge smile. Because

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Speaker 1: Jimmy was the baby, Jill says, he got away with

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: Our parents were a fair amount more permissive with him,

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Speaker 2: which I think is pretty typical of their children. Maybe

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Speaker 2: because you're tired by the time you have a third

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Speaker 2: child coming along, you're older, kind of like been there,

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Speaker 2: done that, You're like less worried, less anxious.

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Speaker 1: As Jimmy got older, he got in.

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Speaker 2: Trouble more often than we did. And a lot of

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Speaker 2: the things he got in trouble for were not things

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Speaker 2: that my middle brother and I weren't also doing. He

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Speaker 2: just got caught more frequently than we did. Their mom

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Speaker 2: had a hypothesis about why Jimmy always seemed to get

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Speaker 2: in trouble at school. The teacher's writing on the chalkboard

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Speaker 2: and all the little kids in class are chit chatting,

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Speaker 2: and she turns around to see who the culprit is,

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Speaker 2: and you're looking at a sea of brown and blonde heads.

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Speaker 2: You know, your eyes are naturally drawn to the bright,

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Speaker 2: orange haired kid.

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Speaker 1: There was some sense in it, but it didn't explain

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Speaker 1: why Jimmy was falling behind in school.

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Speaker 2: At some point, my mom told me that she had

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Speaker 2: all three of us IQ tested. She never told us

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Speaker 2: the results or the scores, but she did tell us

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Speaker 2: that Jimmy had the highest IQ, which is not surprising,

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Speaker 2: like he was very naturally intelligent, but he probably did

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Speaker 2: the worst in school, which I would guess is probably

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Speaker 2: because he had untreated ADHD until he was in high school,

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Speaker 2: and then by then, you know, I think when you

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Speaker 2: have a history of like kind of always doing the

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Speaker 2: wrong thing because you have untreated ADHD, you sort of

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Speaker 2: stopped trying to do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: By high school, Jimmy developed a pattern of making excuses.

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Speaker 1: It was hard to tell what was just Jimmy being

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Speaker 1: Jimmy and what was cause for concern. But Jill was

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Speaker 1: hardly around for those years because she left for college

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Speaker 1: when Jimmy was eleven. She studied psychology because she wanted

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Speaker 1: to know how people tick. She called her parents every

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Speaker 1: week and they would give her updates about Jimmy. She

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Speaker 1: remembers one story in particular that gave her pause.

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Speaker 2: He got in a fight with a classmate in high school.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember why, and we like smashed a tennis racket.

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Speaker 2: I think he might have physically assaulted the kid, because

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Speaker 2: I remember my dad saying that the family was threatening

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Speaker 2: to sue. So it was more than just angry outburst

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Speaker 2: that ruined a tennis racket. And so that kind of

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Speaker 2: thing was like the start of us seeing there's something

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Speaker 2: going on with him at the time, Jill was focused

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Speaker 2: on getting her master's degree, and despite being a troublemaker

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Speaker 2: in high school, Jimmy ended up getting accepted to the

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Speaker 2: same college as his two older siblings. I think I

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Speaker 2: thought of it at the time as like, I'm not

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Speaker 2: his mom, I'm his sister, Like it's not my job

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Speaker 2: to figure out how to get him in line. When

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Speaker 2: Jill was accepted into a PhD program, it meant she

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Speaker 2: would need to move back to Boston, so she packed

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Speaker 2: up to move across the country. On the way, she

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Speaker 2: planned to stop at her parents' house for the night.

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Speaker 2: I had driven cross country with my boyfriend at the time,

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Speaker 2: and we ended up arriving one day ahead of schedule.

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Speaker 2: And we arrived at night to my parents' house, and

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Speaker 2: my parents must have been out of town for some reason,

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Speaker 2: and Jimmy was having party and I walked into the

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Speaker 2: kitchen and there was cocaine on the table. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's a rolled up dollar bill.

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Speaker 1: She'd never seen cocaine in real life. Jimmy told her

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Speaker 1: to relax. He was twenty at the time. It's not

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Speaker 1: like he was a child. But to me, no matter

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Speaker 1: how old we got, he was always my baby brother

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Speaker 1: and so it just felt very shocking. As Jill started

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Speaker 1: her PhD program, Jimmy was in college.

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Speaker 2: This was a time where I was working twelve hours

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Speaker 2: a day, seven days a week. There was always some

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Speaker 2: thirty five page paper due. But as busy as she was,

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Speaker 2: she wouldn't miss Jimmy's college graduation. When the time came,

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Speaker 2: she bought a plane ticket and traveled a few states north.

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Speaker 2: I have no time and no money, but this was

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Speaker 2: a really big deal that he was graduating, and so

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Speaker 2: my entire family flew out and got up early and

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Speaker 2: were sitting in the auditorium waiting for him to cross

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Speaker 2: the stage. They're reading the names alphabetically, and they go

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Speaker 2: right past where he should have been, and we waited

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Speaker 2: and were very confused, and he never walked across the stage.

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Speaker 2: The family got in their rental car and drove to

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Speaker 2: Jimmy's apartment concerned, so we knocked on the door. He

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Speaker 2: answered the door, looking very sleepy. All the lights were off,

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Speaker 2: and he started ranting about his stupid, effing roommate who

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Speaker 2: must have turned off his alarm. And we were so upset.

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Speaker 2: We spent all this time and money and effort to

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Speaker 2: get out to this big event, and like he couldn't

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Speaker 2: even be responsible enough to show up to the graduation.

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Speaker 2: You know, it turned into a fight and we decided

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Speaker 2: to go home early. It just felt like it was

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Speaker 2: an escalation of irresponsibility and unreliability.

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Speaker 1: Their family wondered if Jimmy actually graduated at all. Her

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Speaker 1: parents asked him directly, and he said, no, no, I

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Speaker 1: definitely graduated, and they had no way of proving it.

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Speaker 3: They're paying for.

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Speaker 2: His school, but they don't have access to his school records,

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Speaker 2: so there was nothing they could really do to confirm

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Speaker 2: whether this was the truth. And I think ultimately they

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Speaker 2: just opted to believe them.

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Speaker 1: But Jill still had her suspicions about what really happened

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Speaker 1: that weekend. It was years later and we were having

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Speaker 1: fun and having drinks and I asked him, I said,

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Speaker 1: tell me the truth, like what was the real story?

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Speaker 1: Did you graduate? And he was like, well, don't tell

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Speaker 1: mom and dad, But no, I didn't graduate. So the

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Speaker 1: whole thing was actually premeditated, and the lie about the

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Speaker 1: alarm clock.

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Speaker 2: And his ire that how dare we leave him when

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Speaker 2: this wasn't his fault? It was an act all along.

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Speaker 2: He knew that he wasn't graduating. That conversation made Jilsey

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Speaker 2: her brother a little differently. Before this moment, she knew

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Speaker 2: he could be irresponsible, but she didn't know he had

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Speaker 2: the capacity to lie like this. I had a pretty

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Speaker 2: complicated emotional reaction to that. I was really angry. It

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Speaker 2: was sort of like, how dare you? Like, how can

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Speaker 2: you do.

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Speaker 3: This to us? You know?

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Speaker 2: I think the anger was the thing that was covering

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Speaker 2: the harder emotion, which was like fear, fear of who

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Speaker 2: her brother really was and what he was capable of.

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Speaker 2: So after his fake graduation from college, I remember him

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Speaker 2: kind of like job jumping a fair amount because he

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Speaker 2: always had a terrible boss, you know, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: And that was kind of the extent that my middle

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Speaker 2: brother and I knew.

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Speaker 1: Became an arborist, a tree expert, and he started his

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Speaker 1: own landscaping business.

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Speaker 2: He ended up moving back to New England and lived

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Speaker 2: in the same town as my middle brother and his family,

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Speaker 2: and so they started to see more of him and

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00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:24,120
Speaker 2: to see some behaviors that were concerning. He was going

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Speaker 2: to go out and get his truck washed, and he'd

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Speaker 2: be gone for hours and then he would come back

225
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Speaker 2: and his truck wouldn't be washed, but he would never

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00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,720
Speaker 2: explain where he was or what he was doing.

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Speaker 1: Every year, there'd be one good visit with Jimmy and

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Speaker 1: one visit where Jimmy was clearly up to something.

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Speaker 2: Despite the irresponsibility and the frustration, I still adored him

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Speaker 2: and we were still very cloth like. I was frustrated

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Speaker 2: by his behavior, but pretty quick to forgive him. And

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Speaker 2: partly that's because he's my baby brother, and he wasn't

233
00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,959
Speaker 2: always like that, and that cute, little, sweet and enthusiastic

234
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,960
Speaker 2: and happy little boy like he was still that in

235
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 2: so many ways. I even remember, while I was in

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Speaker 2: graduate school having a conversation with one of my friends

237
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Speaker 2: that classic question of like, if you were going to

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Speaker 2: be stranded on a desert island with five people, who

239
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 2: would be on your island?

240
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Speaker 3: And he was at the top of my list.

241
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: Jimmy was there when Jill got married in Vegas. It

242
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 1: was an intimate wedding, a house party, but the next

243
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,160
Speaker 1: morning Jimmy was taking someone to the airport and he

244
00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,960
Speaker 1: disappeared for hours, and when he finally came back, he

245
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,040
Speaker 1: was like sweaty and anxious and claimed it was because

246
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,600
Speaker 1: he was lost I just remember my brother, my sister

247
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,680
Speaker 1: in law, my husband, and I all being like, something

248
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 1: is going on here, no idea what it is, but

249
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Speaker 1: it's got to be drugs. Right after years of Jimmy's

250
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: strange behavior, Jill and her other brother, John assumed that

251
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,680
Speaker 1: he must be secretly using drugs. It was the only

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00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 1: logical explanation. By twenty thirteen, Jill had achieved some big

253
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Speaker 1: life milestones.

254
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 2: I was working as a professor in a graduate school

255
00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,040
Speaker 2: for psychology. My daughter had just turned one, and I

256
00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 2: was working on my very first book.

257
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Speaker 1: One day, she was home alone with her infant daughter.

258
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:57,680
Speaker 2: I was in my family room TV on, daughters playing

259
00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:02,320
Speaker 2: on the floor, and I was folding laundry, and I

260
00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,440
Speaker 2: got a text message from John that said he was

261
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,640
Speaker 2: on his way to go bail Jimmy out of jail.

262
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 2: And of course we're speculating back and forth, what do

263
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,160
Speaker 2: you think this is. It's got to be drugs because

264
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 2: this was on the heels of some of this bizarre,

265
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,440
Speaker 2: suspicious behavior. So we thought, okay, this is our confirmation

266
00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,600
Speaker 2: he's using drugs. I was like, all right, just keep

267
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,160
Speaker 2: me posted, and so he started texting me with updates

268
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,480
Speaker 2: as he got them. I don't remember what all the

269
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 2: texts said, but I do remember the one that came

270
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 2: through that said, it's a class felony. A felony either

271
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 2: he has like a large amount or he was distributing

272
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:47,120
Speaker 2: or selling.

273
00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,840
Speaker 1: But then Jill got the text that changed her life.

274
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 1: The police had confiscated Jimmy's computer and they'd found photos

275
00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,280
Speaker 1: of underage girls.

276
00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,320
Speaker 2: What made it a felony was that the children in

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00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:12,040
Speaker 2: the images were clearly under the age of twelve, they

278
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:17,199
Speaker 2: were pre pubescent. And I remember like falling to the

279
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,400
Speaker 2: ground having the only panic attack I've ever had in

280
00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,199
Speaker 2: my life. My husband wasn't home, and it was just

281
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,919
Speaker 2: my daughter and me, the TV and the laundry, and

282
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,360
Speaker 2: I just remember being on the ground, totally hyperventilating. Oh

283
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 2: this to this day, so it's been twelve years. I

284
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,399
Speaker 2: just remember feeling so panicked that if this could be

285
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 2: true about my brother, and I could have no idea

286
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,919
Speaker 2: how on earth was I ever going to keep my

287
00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 2: daughter safe, How on earth would I ever know.

288
00:17:59,040 --> 00:17:59,879
Speaker 3: Who the monster.

289
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,640
Speaker 1: Jimmy insisted that he'd been framed, just.

290
00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 2: Like he told us, he graduated and his alarm didn't

291
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 2: go off. We didn't believe anything he was saying. Jill

292
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,119
Speaker 2: formed an alliance with her sister in law, John's wife,

293
00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,399
Speaker 2: and so she and I we would get on the

294
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 2: phone for hours and hours and hours and talk about

295
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,679
Speaker 2: all of the sat nauseum because we were on the

296
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,199
Speaker 2: same page and we were both new moms. All we

297
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 2: cared about was making sure that our kids were safe.

298
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 2: Nothing else mattered. So my sister in law ended up

299
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,160
Speaker 2: actually going to the courthouse to get access to whatever

300
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,440
Speaker 2: records were public, and so she was able to see

301
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,600
Speaker 2: what the arrest was for. It listed the file names

302
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 2: of the content that they found on his computer.

303
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,159
Speaker 1: It wasn't a lot of information, but it was enough.

304
00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:03,080
Speaker 1: These were photos girls as young as six. Jimmy had

305
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,879
Speaker 1: photoshopped himself into some of the images. But when it

306
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,639
Speaker 1: came to his sentencing.

307
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 2: The consequences were not significant. I think he maybe spent

308
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 2: a couple weeks incarcerated and then he was on the

309
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 2: sex offender registry.

310
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,280
Speaker 1: To Jill, it seemed like a slap on the wrist,

311
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,360
Speaker 1: but the inner personal cost was immeasurable.

312
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:32,720
Speaker 2: Because after Jimmy's arrest, our family kind of fell apart.

313
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,520
Speaker 1: A stark divide formed in the family. Jill, her husband

314
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 1: and her sister in law wanted to cut Jimmy out

315
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,399
Speaker 1: of their lives, but her parents weren't on the same page,

316
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 1: and I remember them saying things like, well, I mean,

317
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,520
Speaker 1: isn't it not as bad because it's only pictures. They

318
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 1: wanted to find a way to explain it, a way

319
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: that wasn't as horrib horrific as what the reality was

320
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:08,800
Speaker 1: a lot of just mental gymnastics and denial. And what

321
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 1: resulted from that, I think it was pretty clear to

322
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:20,320
Speaker 1: Jimmy that he could fairly successfully manipulate my parents. He

323
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,600
Speaker 1: told them that his addiction to Adderall is what caused

324
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,240
Speaker 1: him to do this, and I had several conversations with them,

325
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, as a clinical psychologist.

326
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:32,639
Speaker 3: Saying.

327
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: Being high on adderall very likely led him to feel

328
00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:40,119
Speaker 2: disinhibited so that he was more likely to engage in

329
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,280
Speaker 2: these behaviors, but the drug itself did not cause him

330
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 2: to be attracted to little girls.

331
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,000
Speaker 1: Jill and her sister in law drew a firm boundary

332
00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: that they would not interact with Jimmy. They both had

333
00:20:54,040 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 1: young daughters to protect, and in response, Jimmy lashed out,

334
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: and so he sent me and my sister in law

335
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: very nasty messages. He told me I should go kill myself,

336
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:13,679
Speaker 1: cruel lashing out emails the likes of which we had

337
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: never seen. We had not seen this side of him.

338
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 1: That year, their parents invited Jimmy to the family reunion

339
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 1: and we were like, what, No, there were going to

340
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 1: be children there.

341
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 3: He can't be there.

342
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 2: And I remember saying finally, like, I will tell everyone

343
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: I am not allowing him to be around children without

344
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 2: the parents knowing. My parents didn't want anyone to know.

345
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 2: They wanted to keep this a secret, so I think

346
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 2: they ultimately just told him he couldn't come. Jill didn't

347
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 2: talk to her little brother for four years. That was

348
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 2: until their mom got sick, when it became clear that

349
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 2: she was near.

350
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:50,919
Speaker 1: The end of her life.

351
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,760
Speaker 2: Of course, my little brother also wanted to say goodbye

352
00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,719
Speaker 2: to his dying mother, and we were all there together,

353
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 2: and so my dad asked our permission based only to

354
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:05,480
Speaker 2: let him come. Honestly, it was a hard decision, but

355
00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 2: it wasn't you know. It was like, of course, he

356
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:10,480
Speaker 2: has the right to see his mom and say goodbye

357
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 2: to his mom, and there were no children present for

358
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 2: any of that, so we let him come.

359
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,000
Speaker 3: And this was the first time we saw.

360
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: Him, when Jimmy walked in the door, he looked like

361
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: his old self. He seemed clear eye and genuine.

362
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: He assured us that he was clean. His behavior was

363
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: quite different. He apologized for the mean emails that he

364
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 2: sent to my sister in law and me. He apologized

365
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 2: for the terrible way that he had treated all of us.

366
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 2: He was very sincere, and we believed him. We believed

367
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 2: that even if he still had this sexual proclivity, he

368
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 2: wasn't acting on it.

369
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,080
Speaker 1: After that, Jill and Jimmy were on speaking terms again.

370
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 3: We agreed to try to.

371
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: Repair the rupture in our relationship, but of course with

372
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: like gigantic boundaries that he would not be ever unsupervised

373
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 2: around kids or anything like that. And that lasted for

374
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 2: a year. Exactly one year. It was their grandmother's ninety

375
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:23,520
Speaker 2: ninth birthday party. He was there and it became instantly

376
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: obvious that something was wrong. He's acting super cagey, he's

377
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: being weird. He's sleeping a lot, he's being very aggressive

378
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 2: and hostile. You got in a fight with someone in

379
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,879
Speaker 2: a bar. I mean, just kind of back to a

380
00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 2: lot of the old stuff. And I remember leaving the weekend,

381
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,119
Speaker 2: and my sister in law and I talking and just saying,

382
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 2: like the other shoe's going to drop, We're.

383
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 3: Just waiting for the call. The call's going to come.

384
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:55,560
Speaker 2: And then sure enough, shortly after that, we got the call.

385
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 2: A few months earlier, the police had received another tip

386
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:06,600
Speaker 2: about Jimmy. They executed a search warrant at his house.

387
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 2: They confiscated his computers. They also found several thumb drives

388
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 2: in various pockets of his clothing.

389
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 1: He wasn't home during the search. His roommate called to

390
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: tell him that the police were looking for him, but

391
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: Jimmy was nowhere to be found, so the police tracked

392
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 1: his cell phone to try and make the arrest.

393
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,800
Speaker 2: When they finally found him, he had climbed up a

394
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: very high tree. He was a tree guy in arborist,

395
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 2: so he had equipment to climb trees, and the police

396
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 2: all came and he was demanding a letter that he

397
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: would not be held responsible for what they found, and

398
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,480
Speaker 2: if they didn't give him that letter, that he was

399
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: going to jump and kill himself. They ultimately talk him

400
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 2: down out of the tree and they arrest him.

401
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: This time the FBI was involved. Jimmy insisted again that

402
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 1: he had been framed. Jill knew it was a lie,

403
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 1: but she didn't have the FBI report. She didn't know

404
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: exactly what he'd done, and she was determined to find out.

405
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 2: We had a close family friend that was friends with

406
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: my middle brother since like third grade, and he's a

407
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: private investigator. Actually, this family friend was able to get

408
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 2: access to this very detailed FBI report. He emailed it

409
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: to me, and my husband begged me not to read it.

410
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 3: He begged me what.

411
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: Was in this report would determine the future of her family.

412
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: The four years that she'd been estranged from Jimmy tore

413
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,199
Speaker 1: her family apart. They'd just gone back to speaking terms.

414
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: If Jill was going to put her father through that again,

415
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: she needed to see it with her own eyes. So

416
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: she opened the FBI report.

417
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 3: And I knew I shouldn't.

418
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 2: I knew, I knew it was the worst idea, and

419
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 2: I couldn't not read it. I mean, we had just

420
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: been sitting in so much uncertainty and bewilderment that it

421
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,640
Speaker 2: felt intolerable. I was just compelled, like I.

422
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 3: Just had to know. And of course he was right.

423
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 2: It was the worst thing I could have done.

424
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: Jill was in the car with her husband when she

425
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,159
Speaker 1: received a copy of the FBI report on Jimmy, and

426
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: despite her husband's please, she read it. The report started

427
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 1: by describing not pictures, but videos and objects found in

428
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 1: Jimmy's house.

429
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 3: It was sickening.

430
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: The detail in this report will be burned on my

431
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 2: brain forever. There were things happening in these videos that

432
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,160
Speaker 2: I couldn't have even imagined in my worst nightmare.

433
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: Jimmy had clearly escalated.

434
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: He was not.

435
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,400
Speaker 2: Only downloading material, he was also uploading material.

436
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: In his home. The police seized a child sized sex

437
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: doll and multiple pairs of children's underwear.

438
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 2: That was really the moment I was like, oh my god,

439
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: he's a monster.

440
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 1: Jill spoke to him one last time, and on that

441
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: phone call, he wasn't remorseful. He was defiant.

442
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: He said to me, well, at least I'm not part

443
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: of a ring or anything. She's often wondered if he

444
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 2: was telling on himself in that moment, and it was

445
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: like what a little kid would do. You know, it's

446
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: got chocolate all over the face. Did you eat a

447
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: cookieat No.

448
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: It's important to note that in crimes like this, her

449
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: perpetrators are seeking to consume se sam. There's often a

450
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 1: limit to how much someone can download before they're required

451
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 1: to create and upload their own content.

452
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:39,479
Speaker 2: Knowing the depths of what these perpetrators are capable of

453
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: doing really sent me into a spiral as a mom.

454
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: A switch flipped in Jill's reality. After the first arrest,

455
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: I could still see both sides of him, like he

456
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 2: was still my little baby brother who I always loved

457
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: and was very cleo to, who had this sickness, this

458
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 2: horrible proclivity. I even had some compassion for him because

459
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 2: I recognized that he wouldn't want this or wouldn't choose this.

460
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: But I think after the second time, my capacity for

461
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: compassion largely disappeared. Once I read that report, all I could.

462
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: Think about.

463
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,959
Speaker 2: Was what happened to those little girls and when he

464
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 2: got caught the second time, the girls in those images

465
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: were the exact same age as my daughter, and that's

466
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: all I could think about.

467
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 3: That's all I could think about, was like if he

468
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 3: had had access to.

469
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: Her, that was really the point of no return for me.

470
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: This time. It wasn't a slap on the wrist for

471
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: Jimmy because he'd been trading videos and the FBI got involved.

472
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 2: He was charged with a federal crime because they have

473
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: these federal minimums. The penalty for this is ten years,

474
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: so he was ultimately sentenced to ten years in a

475
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: federal correctional facility. She'd seen the darkest parts of humanity

476
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: in her own brother, and so after this happened, all

477
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 2: of us were just how, why, what possibly could have

478
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: caused this? How could the same family, you know, raise

479
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: my middle brother and me to be who we are,

480
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: but also have this person be a pedophile. It just

481
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 2: did not make any sense.

482
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: She began obsessively researching and studying perpetrators like her brother.

483
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: If I could just understand this enough, then I would

484
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: have the tools to protect my children. As an anxiety expert,

485
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: what I know about what fuels anxiety is uncertainty, a

486
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: lack of perceived control, and a high sense of responsibility.

487
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: And those three things were so present for me as.

488
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: A mom when this happened.

489
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 1: She learned how perpetrators often groomed the parents first and

490
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: how they select their targets.

491
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 2: Perpetrators groom children by connecting with little kids over things

492
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: that they like. They test them by sharing secret you know,

493
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 2: saying to a kid, telling them or doing something that

494
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 2: their parents wouldn't approve of, and saying this will be

495
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 2: our secret. To then see did the kid tell the

496
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: parents it was a secret, and if not, that might

497
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 2: make them a good victim.

498
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: But no matter how much she learned, the anxiety didn't

499
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: go away. All the research in the world didn't give

500
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: her an answer about how or why her own little

501
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: brother became this person. She's had to accept that her

502
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 1: brother's actions have fundamentally changed her.

503
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 3: I think it's made me hard.

504
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 2: And I was not that way before this. Ooh, that

505
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 2: just got me choked up. It was just the most

506
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: painful experience of letting yourself love someone so deeply.

507
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 3: And to have that backfire.

508
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: What hurts the most is thinking back to the happy

509
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 1: little boy she loved so much.

510
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 2: It feels impossible that those people are the same person.

511
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: It just feels impossible that human body is still walking

512
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 2: around on the earth. But I lost my brother that

513
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: I knew years years ago.

514
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: There's a word for this kind of experience. It's called

515
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: disenfranchised grief.

516
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: And so I feel like I have never really been

517
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: able to properly grieve any of this because I don't

518
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: feel like I'm allowed to feel grief for someone who's

519
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: a pedophile.

520
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Jimmy's now out of prison. Jill isn't in touch with

521
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 1: him and doesn't plan to be. Just knowing he's out

522
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 1: there brings all these emotions to the surface once again.

523
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: But Jill is committed to finding meaning in the wreckage. Today,

524
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: she writes and speaks publicly about her story, including the

525
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: darkest parts. Jill co hosts a podcast of her own

526
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: psychologists Off the Clock. It's a place where clinicians talk

527
00:33:54,400 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: about real life grief, shame, and what actually helpslogy.

528
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: There's a concept of post traumatic growth.

529
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: Some people experience trauma and they kind of rebound back

530
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: to baselines. Some never really rebound, and some actually end

531
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 2: up doing better than they were at baseline.

532
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

533
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: Exactly where I fall on that spectrum, but I do

534
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 2: think there has been sort of examples of growth or

535
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 2: good or purpose through this.

536
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 1: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,

537
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: why do you want to share your story?

538
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 2: I think as much as this feels scary and uncomfortable,

539
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 2: we have to be willing to say the hard thing.

540
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: Treating this like a dirty little secret, like this is

541
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: not my crime, this is not my family's crime, Like

542
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 2: none of us did anything wrong. He Jimmy is the

543
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 2: only one who did anything wrong.

544
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 3: And keeping it a secret is just protecting him, and

545
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: he doesn't deserve.

546
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: Protection, deserve protection, And so I just feel compelled to

547
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 2: start having more of these honest conversations, even if they're

548
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: not popular. Like sunlight is the best disinfectant, and I

549
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 2: have to be part of the sunlight.

550
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, I get.

551
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 4: A call and it's a detective, he said, Jack oln

552
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 4: We got an anonymous call from a gentleman stating that

553
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 4: you were being scammed and they felt sorry for you.

554
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 4: My head exploded, thinking, oh my god, Oh my god,

555
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 4: Oh my god, oh my god.

556
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 1: Before we end the episode, I have some exciting news.

557
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: Betrayal will be doing our first ever live show as

558
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 1: part of the Virgin Voyages True Crime Crew OZ. We'll

559
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: be answering listener questions and discussing them live on stage

560
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: with Stacy and Tyler from Betrayal season three, as well

561
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: as Caroline from season four. So if you have a

562
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: question for us, please email us at Betrayalpod at gmail

563
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 1: dot com with the subject line listener question and if

564
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: you want to join us on the Caribbean cruise, there

565
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: are still spots available. Search virgin voyages dot com slash

566
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 1: true crime. If you would like to reach out to

567
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 1: the Betrayal team or want to tell us your Betrayal story,

568
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com, That's Betrayal

569
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram

570
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: at Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on

571
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: Instagram at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view

572
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community, join our

573
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Speaker 1: substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for

574
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: your support. One way to show support is by subscribing

575
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Speaker 1: rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way.

577
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Speaker 1: A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal

578
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass

579
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is

580
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and

581
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,840
Speaker 1: produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard.

582
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: Also produced by Ben Fetterman, Associate producers are Caitlin Golden,

583
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: Olivia Hewitt, and Kristin Melcurie. Casting support from Curry Richmond.

584
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio

585
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: editing and mixing by Matt Delvechio. Additional audio editing by

586
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library

587
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:53,480
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588
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Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

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Speaker 1: your podcasts