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Speaker 1: Hi listeners. Caitlin here with a quick content warning for

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Speaker 1: this episode. Sexual assault and date rape are brought up

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Speaker 1: in a few different parts of the episode. It's not

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Speaker 1: an extensive part of the movie nor our discussion, but

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Speaker 1: again it is discussed throughout the episode, so we wanted

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Speaker 1: listeners to be aware of that. Enjoyed the episode. On

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Speaker 1: the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: in them? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start

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Speaker 1: changing it with the bec Del cast. Hey, Caitlin, Yes, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: what do you think the devil looks like? Well, the

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Speaker 1: movie would have you think, or at least the character

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Speaker 1: of Aaron in this movie would have you think that

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Speaker 1: it looks like William Hurt. But I think it looks

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Speaker 1: like Albert Brooks's character. Oh and he's the devil. I

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Speaker 1: think that I the devil looks like who in this movie?

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Speaker 1: Who does the devil most look like? This is actually

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Speaker 1: a challenging question. Is it is it Jack Nicholson? Could

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Speaker 1: it be him? He's refused to give up any of

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Speaker 1: his salary to save any anyone else's job. It was

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Speaker 1: all a big joke to him. Oh my gosh, that part.

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Speaker 1: I was just like, I can't wait to talk about it. Also, honestly,

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Speaker 1: he looks like how I would imagine the Devil would

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Speaker 1: look like, just like eyebrow Wise, do you remember the

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Speaker 1: movie which is of Eastwick where he was play the Devil? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I do. And there's like some production crossover between which

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Speaker 1: is of Eastwick and this movie. It all comes together.

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Speaker 1: Did Jack Nicholson confirmed the Devil? It's hot here first

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Speaker 1: that he's played the devil. It would have been a

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Speaker 1: real waste of waste of his vibe if he did not.

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Speaker 1: At one point, I hate to see a vibe wasted.

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Speaker 1: So that's right. Yeah, well that was my little opening.

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Speaker 1: Although I loved it the Bectel Cast, I was gonna

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Speaker 1: do do you want to hear what I would have done? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if if I were opening it, I would have said

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Speaker 1: breaking news do do do do, and then like done

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Speaker 1: some like news jingle, and then I would have been like,

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Speaker 1: this is the Bechtel Cast. I like it. I like it,

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I think we have two strong options. I

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Speaker 1: think everyone should sound off in the comments of what

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Speaker 1: they the stronger opening was, and that will be that

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Speaker 1: will be helpful for us moving forward. We love feedback,

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Speaker 1: especially with unsolicited Oh good grief. Okay, well, this is

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Speaker 1: breaking news. This is the Bechdel Cast, and this is

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Speaker 1: our podcast in which we examine movies through an intersectional

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Speaker 1: feminist lens, using the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping

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Speaker 1: off point to initiate a larger conversation. The Bechdel Test

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Speaker 1: being a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,

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Speaker 1: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, in which are standard

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Speaker 1: these days. Two people of a marginalized gender have to

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Speaker 1: have names, they have to speak to each other about

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Speaker 1: something other than a man, and ideally it is a

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Speaker 1: conversation that is narratively meaningful, right, and it's and it

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Speaker 1: really cannot ultimately be about Albert Brooks, which is where

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Speaker 1: I struggled in this one. Uh, there were somewhere I'm

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Speaker 1: like oh, and then it's like, oh, but that was

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Speaker 1: about William Hurt or Albert Brooks, wasn't it? You know?

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Speaker 1: That was What was the name of this new station?

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Speaker 1: What was the name of the fictional w Oh who cares?

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Speaker 1: W who cares? Recovering broadcast news today we are I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited to talk about this movie. There's so

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Speaker 1: much to talk about. There's a lot to unpack, and

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Speaker 1: we have an amazing guest. We certainly do. He's a writer.

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Speaker 1: He's a host of the new Polygon podcast Galaxy Brains.

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Speaker 1: It's Daveilling. Hello, Welcome. What a pleasure it is to

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Speaker 1: be here today to talk about a movie that is

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Speaker 1: one of my favorites of all time. But I also

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Speaker 1: do believe that it is in fact not going to

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Speaker 1: pass the test. We'll go through it later. But when

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Speaker 1: I racked my brain thinking about this movie that I love,

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Speaker 1: that I've seen many times that I own a blue ray,

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Speaker 1: I think no, definitely. First of all, huge flex with

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Speaker 1: the blue ray when someone drops a blue ray physical

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Speaker 1: media baby. Um yeah, Well, I I think I I

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Speaker 1: have um a compulsion towards owning movies that I love

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Speaker 1: because they do disappear often, like they leave streaming services,

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Speaker 1: um for years at a time, sometimes more than that,

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Speaker 1: you know, decades. So I want to make sure that

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Speaker 1: when I want to see my favorite movies, I I

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Speaker 1: have them. For instance, the movie Crossroads, which we always

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Speaker 1: get requests for, but it's literally not not accessible to us.

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Speaker 1: It is unavailable. We've even set up episodes for this

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Speaker 1: and then been like, wait a second, this movie has

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Speaker 1: been disappeared. Why is that? I don't know, erased from

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Speaker 1: human existence? You can buy it on DVD, but the

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Speaker 1: DVD is also like sixty dollars. What is going on

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Speaker 1: with that? There's another movie that I think you two

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Speaker 1: should do at some point, um, Catherine Bigelow's movie Strange Days,

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Speaker 1: which was really on my mind quite a bit last

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Speaker 1: summer during during all of the protests and uprisings over

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Speaker 1: the George Floyd killing, because as that movie was about,

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Speaker 1: you know, our relationship with law enforcement and all of

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Speaker 1: that stuff, and it's nowhere. You can't buy it on

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Speaker 1: on physical media. You have to you have to find,

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Speaker 1: you know, a used copy on eBay or something. I

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Speaker 1: just happen to have one from college because I was

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Speaker 1: a physical media collector when it mattered back then. But

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Speaker 1: otherwise just unavailable. And it's a shame because that's a

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Speaker 1: movie that people need to be watching right now. That

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Speaker 1: is so I yeah, I've I've never seen it and

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Speaker 1: now I have no options. You can borrow my pan

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Speaker 1: and scan DVD if anyone has copies of either of

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Speaker 1: those movies lying around. We do have a po box.

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Speaker 1: I like Crossroads was sorry to go basket to cross Road.

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Speaker 1: Cross Roads was written by Shonda Rhymes, Like, there's just

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Speaker 1: so much going on for cross Roads. I completely forget

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Speaker 1: what happens in the movie. Maybe it's really fucked up

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Speaker 1: and they don't want us to see it. I don't

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Speaker 1: remember what happens right. I haven't seen it. It feels

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Speaker 1: like I never will because of it being so inaccessible.

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Speaker 1: We might be fucked uh So, Dave, you said that

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Speaker 1: Broadcast News is one of your favorite movies of all time.

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Speaker 1: What's your history? Boy? I must have seen it for

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Speaker 1: the first time in film school because that was when

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Speaker 1: I first started getting into Albert Brooks movies. Um. You know, Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: if you are a young film enthusiast at a certain age,

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Speaker 1: you are and you are like me Jewish, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm Jewish on my mother's side, you are pushed into

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Speaker 1: a filmography of someone who we don't have to talk

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Speaker 1: about that he's out there and he made a lot

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Speaker 1: of movies for people of that ilk and Albert Brooks

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Speaker 1: is was never given that same amount of credibility. With

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Speaker 1: the film community. He was never a box office success,

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Speaker 1: he's never won an Academy Award, but his movies are

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Speaker 1: so much more rewarding than other people playing in this

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Speaker 1: kind of nebushy jewish millie you because in every film

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Speaker 1: that he is in, at least the ones where he's

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Speaker 1: written and directed them or co written them and directed them. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and this one he did not do either, but it's

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Speaker 1: still fit into that sort of vibe. He's the villain,

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Speaker 1: he's the bad guy, and I was glad that we

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Speaker 1: got to do this because it does This movie and

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Speaker 1: in his work in general, really underlines certain toxic qualities

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Speaker 1: about the masculine id and the masculine id of people

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Speaker 1: who believe themselves to be smarter or better or more

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Speaker 1: self aware. In reality, they're the least self aware people

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Speaker 1: that there that there is. But he's kind of the

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Speaker 1: fake ally in this movie because he says to Jane, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm your best friend, I'm your only friend.

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Speaker 1: We have this special connection. He's gaslighting her the entire movie.

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Speaker 1: He is manipulating her the entire movie, and he's created

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Speaker 1: this codependent relationship with this person. Uh that is damaging

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Speaker 1: to her to an extreme degree, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: really brave of him to have been willing to play

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Speaker 1: that character in all of these films, and to write

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Speaker 1: and direct movies where he's playing this unlikable character. I

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Speaker 1: think the only movie that he is in that he

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Speaker 1: wrote or co wrote and directed where he's not unlikable

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Speaker 1: is Defending Your Life. But the rest of him, he's

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Speaker 1: kind of like he's the reason why everything is going wrong.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's a really laudable, wonderful thing. And

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Speaker 1: uh so that's one of the reasons why I love

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Speaker 1: this movie is it it shines light on certain things

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Speaker 1: that we don't like to talk about about masculinity. Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: He didn't write or direct this movie, but a different

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Speaker 1: Brooks did, Yeah, James L. Brooks, which I was like,

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Speaker 1: are they related? And I don't think they are. They're not.

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Speaker 1: James L. Brooks though, was in another film that Albert

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Speaker 1: Brooks is and one of Albert Brooks's directorial efforts, Modern Romance.

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Speaker 1: He plays a film director. Um I don't believe he's

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Speaker 1: playing himself, but he does play a film director in

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Speaker 1: that movie. Um. So they were kind of friends from

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Speaker 1: the comedy community of that time. A kind of alternative

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Speaker 1: comedy scene of that moment um. And I believe that

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Speaker 1: he was also in um he was in terms of

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Speaker 1: endearment before this too, Like, yeah, there's all sorts of

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Speaker 1: fun overlap. It seems like James L. Brooks really, I

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Speaker 1: mean I I sort of knew this, but you know,

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Speaker 1: in researching the production of this movie, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: he has like a crew that he works with over

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Speaker 1: the course of like what like forty years at this point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and co creator of the Simpsons, And that's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why Albert Brooks was in so many Simpsons

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Speaker 1: episodes in the early part of the run of that show. Wow, Jamie,

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Speaker 1: what's your relationship in history with this movie? I liked

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Speaker 1: this movie. I think I also first saw it in college.

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Speaker 1: I remember liking it then, and I didn't revisit it

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Speaker 1: for a long time after, and then I don't I

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Speaker 1: think it was. It wasn't until a friend of the cast,

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Speaker 1: Karina Longworth, put out an amazing season of her show

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Speaker 1: You must remember this last year about Polly Platt, who

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Speaker 1: was really integral in this movie, worked with James L.

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Speaker 1: Brooks a lot and produced this movie. And when I

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Speaker 1: was listening to that series. I think, like last summer

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Speaker 1: or fall, I was watching kind of her filmography as

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Speaker 1: I was listening, and so I revisited this movie and

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Speaker 1: was like pretty blown away by it and was really

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Speaker 1: excited to revisit it for this show. I think that

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Speaker 1: this would have been kind of my introduction to most

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Speaker 1: of these actors. When I saw these I wasn't like

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Speaker 1: a huge film buff in high school or anything. I

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Speaker 1: was very very normal in my tastes. I take no

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Speaker 1: shame in it, but it but it was true. Like

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Speaker 1: to before I saw this movie, I was like, like,

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Speaker 1: literally most of these people were Pixar characters to me,

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Speaker 1: because Albert Brooks is the dad and finding Nemo and

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Speaker 1: Holly Hunter is Mr is incredible. So long story short,

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Speaker 1: I've I've never worked in broadcast news, but I have

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Speaker 1: worked in news news, and it was really interesting to

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Speaker 1: watch after having some experience in that space, and I'm

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Speaker 1: really excited to talk about it. What about you, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: I too, saw this movie for the first time in

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Speaker 1: film school and push on. Yet they really want film

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Speaker 1: students to watch broadcast news. I think it's one of

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Speaker 1: the only movies they want to show that's like entertaining.

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Speaker 1: It's like, oh, this is funny. We're gonna show this

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Speaker 1: funny movie instead of you know, yeah, maybe that's why

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Speaker 1: I remembered because I was there were so many movies

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Speaker 1: in film school, like in the film program I was in,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I wow, boy did I hate that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it was competent, but what a drag? I

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Speaker 1: am going to sleep through this? Yeah, there would always

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Speaker 1: be an intermission like Okay, we're gonna pause for a

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Speaker 1: little bit so you guys can go to the bathroom

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Speaker 1: and stuff, and I would just go back to my

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Speaker 1: door to sleep. I don't want to watch The Blue

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Speaker 1: Angel by Max Offals. I want to sleep. Well, I'm

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Speaker 1: about to be the villain the Albert Brooks of this

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Speaker 1: episode and say that I wasn't as enamored with this

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Speaker 1: movie and I find it to be longer than it

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Speaker 1: needs to be. Well, that that's absolutely true. I will

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Speaker 1: not pretend that that it's not true. Why is this

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Speaker 1: movie two hours and thirteen minutes. It could be a

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Speaker 1: breezy minutes. I'm not sure why it's as long as

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Speaker 1: it is, and therefore I find it a boring movie

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Speaker 1: punctuated by some really fun scenes. It's not really my

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Speaker 1: type of movie, although I you know, it is obviously

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Speaker 1: competently made, incompetently written and directed, and the performances are

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Speaker 1: really good. But it's just I don't know, it's not

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Speaker 1: really my jam. But there are many things to talk about.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited to unpack it, and I will never not

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Speaker 1: be better that it's two hours and thirteen minutes long.

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Speaker 1: It used to be longer. There's an entire subplot that

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Speaker 1: was cut out. Oh my gosh, it was a longer movie.

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Speaker 1: I know. Do tell what was what else could have

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Speaker 1: possibly happened? Um? I believe these scenes were shot because

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Speaker 1: I think they're on the criterion. But the shooting script

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Speaker 1: that I read had a sub lot where Tom be

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Speaker 1: friends a State Department official or employee. I think he's

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Speaker 1: kind of a low level State Department person, but his

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Speaker 1: roommate knows a bunch of people, and so there is

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Speaker 1: um a transference of information for uh, flirtation that occurs, um.

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Speaker 1: And that's where Tom gets a lot of the information

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Speaker 1: that he uses to then advance in his careers. Is

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Speaker 1: because this the State Department person finds him attractive, and

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Speaker 1: Tom is kind of guileless He's just like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're just friends, but he wants to, you know, take

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Speaker 1: things to the next level with Tom, and he doesn't

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Speaker 1: understand why it. On the page it read really offensive

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad they cut it out, But that was

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Speaker 1: a whole like it must have been an extra twenty

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Speaker 1: pages of screenplay. Thank you. Yeah, this movie is definitely

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Speaker 1: already a bit long. I feel like that's just like

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Speaker 1: any outour movie is going to be too long. But

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Speaker 1: I still think that there's so I don't know that,

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Speaker 1: and I think that this is like one of those

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Speaker 1: movies that sometimes like when I learned about the production

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Speaker 1: of a movie, I like it less by the time

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Speaker 1: I've learned more. This is the opposite. The more I

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Speaker 1: learned about the production of this movie, the more interesting

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Speaker 1: I think it is. Cool. Well, shall we talk about

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Speaker 1: the story and then go from there? Yeah, okay, so

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Speaker 1: here's the recap. We meet our three main characters when

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Speaker 1: their children. Tom who is a nice looking boy but

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Speaker 1: who doesn't get good grades and therefore he will be

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Speaker 1: a future news anchor. Aaron is like smarty pants brainiac

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Speaker 1: he will be a future news reporter. And Jane writes

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Speaker 1: letters to Pen pals and like job like it's her

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Speaker 1: job achiever. She cares very much about precision, and therefore

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Speaker 1: she is a future news producer. I really loved that

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Speaker 1: scene with with Little Jane where she tells her dad

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Speaker 1: off for like not being specific enough in his criticisms

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Speaker 1: of her and like it's so fun. And then Jane

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Speaker 1: grows up to be Holly Hunter, who is in fact

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Speaker 1: a news producer. She works with and is good friends with,

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Speaker 1: adult Aaron, who is Albert Brooks. We see Jane give

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Speaker 1: a speech criticizing the state of like news reporting and

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Speaker 1: newscasting too soft, and afterward, Tom, who is William Hurt,

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Speaker 1: approaches her and he's like, hey, great job, so she

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Speaker 1: asks him about for dinner. It seems like things might

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Speaker 1: get romantic. He also was talking about how he's not

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Speaker 1: good at his job and that he's been sickly failing

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Speaker 1: upward and she's like, well, okay, get better and try harder,

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Speaker 1: which upsets him and he leaves. I hate Tom. I

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Speaker 1: hate Tom, so I feel like we I know, I

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Speaker 1: know that Aaron is very much a villain, but I

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Speaker 1: do hate Tom the most out of everybody. I hate.

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Speaker 1: I dislike both of the men that we're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be that. I don't. I mean, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: we're really supposed to be rooting for any relationship. I

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Speaker 1: don't think even know that we are. Yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: not a movie that is neutral in its moral judgments.

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Speaker 1: I think it does judge every character in time in

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Speaker 1: the film. And that's one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 1: like it so much, is because it casts skepticism on

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Speaker 1: all three of the protagonists, which is very rare in movies.

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Speaker 1: I think most of the time, when you watch a

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Speaker 1: comedy like this, or even a dramedy something that has,

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Speaker 1: you know, gravitas, you're watching and the movie decides, this

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Speaker 1: is the person you're supposed to like, This is the

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Speaker 1: one that's going to make all the good decisions, or

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Speaker 1: is at least going to um reverse course on the

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Speaker 1: bad decision at some point. But I think at a

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Speaker 1: certain juncture in the movie, for all three characters, and

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Speaker 1: I think for Aaron, multiple times through the movie, the

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Speaker 1: movie points fingers at him and says, you are a bad,

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Speaker 1: bad person, you are making wrong choices, you are a

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Speaker 1: selfish person, and um the movie judges him accordingly. It's

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Speaker 1: really it's it's fascinating, like going through the moral gymnastics

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Speaker 1: of this movie, because there's multiple points where you have

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Speaker 1: to like think about what someone just said and be like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they said that for a selfish reason, but I don't

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Speaker 1: totally disagree with what they were saying. But they're doing

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Speaker 1: it to be emotionally manipulative, and ultimately I don't like

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Speaker 1: any of them. I wanted to read Tom's character's description

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Speaker 1: on the Scholarly Journal Wikipedia page because it made me

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Speaker 1: laugh a lot. Uh. It says Tom is tall and

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Speaker 1: someome likable, intelligenic, but lacks news experience, general knowledge, intelligence,

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Speaker 1: and language skills. Like I mean, I think that that

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Speaker 1: that is certainly true, but also what it's not a

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Speaker 1: stretch to say that he is all those things. But

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Speaker 1: the one thing that makes Tom a special, interesting, complicated

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Speaker 1: character is his intense self awareness of his faults. That

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Speaker 1: is a cool thing to me. Not that I like Tom.

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Speaker 1: That I walk away from this movie saying, ble, I

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Speaker 1: wish Tom and Jane got together because they're just great

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Speaker 1: for each other and he's so cool. No, he's he's

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Speaker 1: a manipulator. He is a figure who is really just

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Speaker 1: out for himself. But he doesn't know that he's not

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Speaker 1: savvy enough to understand of his problem, but he can

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Speaker 1: point out some of it. Yeah, that's what's cool about

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Speaker 1: the movie, Like, Okay, he gets it, but he at

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Speaker 1: the end he expressed is this belief in what he

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Speaker 1: did being okay even though Jane is like, this is

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Speaker 1: the worst, most unethical thing you could possibly do. So

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Speaker 1: he's self aware to a point, but when he gets

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Speaker 1: something out of his naivete or his perceived lack of

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Speaker 1: awareness or ability, he doesn't mind. Yeah that's a very

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Speaker 1: American thing, isn't it. It's it's like he knows that

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Speaker 1: this is not a meritograhy and that is going to

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Speaker 1: work to his advantage in every way. Yeah, what's the

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Speaker 1: line what's the exchange of dialogue where Jane is like,

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Speaker 1: you could get fired for that, and he's like, I

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Speaker 1: got promoted for that. We're like, yeah, heikes. Through the

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Speaker 1: process of the movie he is learning the full extent

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Speaker 1: of his devious powers and that it's it's sort of

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Speaker 1: like the origin story of a Marvel villain. Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 1: It's I'm so I'm like, what does that character look

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Speaker 1: like twenty years down the line, because it's like he's

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Speaker 1: almost like ahead of the curve and where news ended

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Speaker 1: up going to the point where like the central ethical

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Speaker 1: conversation around this movie would barely even be a discussion.

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Speaker 1: Oh he's Brian Williams. Yeah, yeah, yeah, did the same

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Speaker 1: thing of a similar thing to what happens in this movie,

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Speaker 1: where he's like, I was you know that helicopter and

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Speaker 1: boy it was scary. That was a lie. That was

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Speaker 1: a whole lie. Yeah. Side Well, Tom leaves Jane's hotel room,

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Speaker 1: but then he calls her right away and he's like,

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Speaker 1: by the way, I've gotten a job at your network,

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Speaker 1: so I'll see you at work. And this is the

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Speaker 1: beginning of a like will they or won't they get

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Speaker 1: together kind of thing between Jane and Tom. Then we

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Speaker 1: see this great sequence where Jane, Aaron, and some other

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Speaker 1: staff like this editor guy Bobby, as well as Blair

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Speaker 1: who's played by Joan Cusack. They like are putting together

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Speaker 1: this segment and they have to like really quickly get

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Speaker 1: it all together and like rush the tape to the

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Speaker 1: people so that it gets on air, and they like

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Speaker 1: have like not a second to lose some great Joan Cusack,

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Speaker 1: I feel like Hillary Duff one day would watch that

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Speaker 1: tape of the Sheer Pratt follery of that sequence beautiful.

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Speaker 1: It's it's really an obstacle. Course, she made a real

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Speaker 1: career out of playing that character in in the eighties.

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Speaker 1: This and Working Girl. It's just like, Wow, Joan Cusack

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Speaker 1: knew how to play this kind of harried, low level

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Speaker 1: employee in a high stakes work environment. She's just fantastic

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Speaker 1: in this movie, very very funny. She almost impaled herself

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Speaker 1: on a water bubbler at one point. It's like there

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Speaker 1: was just like I was like, oh my god, that

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Speaker 1: had to have really hurt, and the shot continued for

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Speaker 1: twenty seconds after. She's amazing. So meanwhile, Tom keeps wanting

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Speaker 1: to pick Jane's brain and she's like, I'm busy. But

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Speaker 1: then he starts getting better as a reporter, and Jane

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Speaker 1: is like, oh am, I still attracted to Tom even

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Speaker 1: though I don't respect him, And wow, this is happening.

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Speaker 1: Aaron is starting to feel overlooked and unappreciated. Then some

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Speaker 1: like big breaking news is happening about a fighter plane

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Speaker 1: and their boss, like the network president Paul wants Jane

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Speaker 1: to executive produce this story and wants Tom to anchor it,

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Speaker 1: even though Aaron is far more qualified, and Jane confronts

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Speaker 1: Paul about this, but Paul doesn't budge, so they cover

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Speaker 1: the story with Tom as the anchor, and it goes

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Speaker 1: surprisingly well. Jane and Tom have a great rhythm, and

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Speaker 1: she's back to being attracted to him, But then he

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Speaker 1: goes off with another reporter, Jennifer, and they have sex

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Speaker 1: and then and then she is unceremoniously written out of

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Speaker 1: the story. I know, you can't get deported to Alaska,

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Speaker 1: but she gets deported to Alaska essentially because of Jane.

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Speaker 1: Jane is like, we need to send her there to

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Speaker 1: cover this story because she's jealous. Um. It also should

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Speaker 1: be mentioned that throughout the movie we have seen Jane

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Speaker 1: have these like very short outbursts where she just like

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Speaker 1: bursts into tears for like a minute when she's by

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Speaker 1: herself and then composes herself and like gets back to

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Speaker 1: whatever she's doing. She's an Olympic compartmentalizer for sure. So

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Speaker 1: then Tom pitches a story to Jane a about women

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Speaker 1: being sexually assaulted on dates, and he wants to do

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Speaker 1: this story and he puts it all together and part

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Speaker 1: of it is him interviewing a woman about being a

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Speaker 1: survivor of date rape, and she's crying while she's telling

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Speaker 1: her story. It cuts to Tom crying as well, and

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Speaker 1: after Jane watches this, she's like, well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: about you, like cutting to your reaction, but otherwise this

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Speaker 1: was a good segment, Like it was very moving, so

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Speaker 1: let's put a pin in that, shall we. We also

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Speaker 1: learn that their boss, Paul, has to fire a bunch

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Speaker 1: of people because of a major budget cut. Aaron thinks

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Speaker 1: that he might be fired, so he wants a chance

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Speaker 1: at anchoring the weekend news to prove that he can

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Speaker 1: do a good job, and he begrudgingly has Tom help

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Speaker 1: him prepare, who tells Aaron like, you know, you're not

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Speaker 1: just reading the news, you're selling it. You're a salesman.

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Speaker 1: And Aaron is like, that scene is gross, but it's funny.

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Speaker 1: And then when Aaron does that like weekend news spot

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Speaker 1: where he anchors it, he starts sweating horribly and the

426
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: whole thing is quite sloppy. Meanwhile, Jane and Tom are

427
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: together at a correspondence dinner and they're flirting and they kiss,

428
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: but then Jane has to go see Aaron after his

429
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 1: big night. So she goes to him and she's like,

430
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: by the way, I think I'm in love with Tom,

431
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 1: and Aaron is like, well, Tom is the devil. Also

432
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,040
Speaker 1: I'm in love. So you're like, oh, okay, so this

433
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 1: is a completely unbiased opinion. Good. Um. So then things

434
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: kind of fall apart between Jane and Tom. The layoffs happen.

435
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: Jane gets promoted to bureau chief. Tom also gets promoted.

436
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: He's being sent to London. Aaron quits and Aaron is like, hey,

437
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: Jane asked Tom how he was able to get a

438
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: cutaway to his reaction during that story where we see him,

439
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 1: you know, reacting and crying when he only brought one

440
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: camera with him. So then Jane goes back through the

441
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: footage and it shows that Aaron got that reaction shot

442
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: after the interview that he was acting, and then he

443
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 1: edited it into the story. And Jane is just completely

444
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 1: disgusted and appalled by this. And she was supposed to

445
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: go away with Tom before he left for London, but

446
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: she confronts him at the airport, which I thought was

447
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: a fun subversion of like, you know, people go to

448
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: the airport and like makeup and kiss. But she goes

449
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: there too to scald his ethics. Yeah, She's like, you

450
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 1: make me sick. I'm not going on this trip with you.

451
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 1: You committed a terrible breach of ethics. Screw you forever.

452
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: It's it's also one of the great pre nine eleven

453
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: airport scenes because she's just kind of wandering around. She's

454
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: not sure if she's gonna go or dot. She doesn't

455
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 1: have a ticket because he's got the tickets. He's wandering

456
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: around with like funny hats and like, hey, the airport

457
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: is a fun place to be. Is great. She's like, no,

458
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna break up with you. And then he's like, Okay,

459
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,200
Speaker 1: I guess I'll just walk through this single piece of

460
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: security and get right the one metal detector and that

461
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: is it. It's just very very interesting. Yeah, it's like

462
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: walking into a J. C. Penny basically. Yeah. I think

463
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: people just go to the airport to have lunch. Oh

464
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: there's a Binny Hotta in the airport. Yeah, let's go there.

465
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: I can't relate. So that's the end of them. Then

466
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: we cut two several years later, where Jane, Tom and

467
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: Aaron all and into each other. Jane is considering taking

468
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: an even higher position as a managing editor, where she

469
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 1: would be Tom's boss. Tom is engaged to someone else.

470
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: Aaron is married and has a young son. So they've all,

471
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 1: you know, like moved on with their lives doing other stuff.

472
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: And then the movie ends on Jane and Aaron catching up.

473
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: So that's the story. Let's take a quick break and

474
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back.

475
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: Where should we start. I mean, I have a lot

476
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: of info on on the background of this movie that

477
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: we could maybe start by just like ping ponging off

478
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: each other about There is a lot of stuff that

479
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: maybe appreciate certain parts of the movie morphed for for

480
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: knowing about it. So this is this is a James L.

481
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: Brooks movie. It's his Ohtour period shortly pre Simpson's. He

482
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: made this movie with um Polly Platt as a producer.

483
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: She is not even on the Wikipedia page for this movie, which,

484
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: after listening to Karina season on it is baffling and frustrating,

485
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 1: but also fix it right now, let's franks it now.

486
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: By the time you hear this, she'll be there it.

487
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it is pretty like ridiculous that she's not.

488
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 1: She had worked she had worked with James L. Brooks

489
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: on his I think it was his immediate previous movie

490
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 1: in terms of endearment. James L. Brooks had a pretty

491
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: good track record in centering women in stories, particularly women

492
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: in the workplace. He was a producer on The Mary

493
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: Tyler Moore Show. He centered women and women's stories at

494
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: a time where it was kind of unusual to do

495
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 1: so as a white male. Ohtour, So that was his background.

496
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: Polly Platt came on for this movie. She had previously

497
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: worked in terms of endearment as well. She had worked

498
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,640
Speaker 1: on a number of Peter Bagdanovich's best movies when they

499
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: were married, but she was never credited as an actual producer,

500
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: and that was kind of the story of her life

501
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: up until broadcast news that she had been repeatedly contributing

502
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,720
Speaker 1: on a producer level but was never credited. That way

503
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: was always overlooked. Was supposed to direct her own movies.

504
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: There was like a time in I think the late

505
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: seventies early eighties where she was projected to be like,

506
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: quote unquote the first great female director. But she never

507
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: did direct a movie for a lot of reasons, but

508
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 1: you know, one of the big ones was how frequently

509
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: she was erased from the projects she did contribute to

510
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 1: on a really high level and broadcast News was the

511
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: first movie that she was actually formally credited as a

512
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 1: producer on. I have a question, did she receive an

513
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,160
Speaker 1: Academy Award nomination for Best Picture for this or was

514
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: she not one of the credited producers on that? That's

515
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: a good question. Let me let me check that that

516
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: the because is it the executive producer who gets the

517
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: nomination for the Best Picture Academy Award? Is that the case?

518
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: Possibly she she I'm not seeing that she was. I'm

519
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: not saying that she was nominated for an Academy where

520
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: she was nominated for an Academy Award for Art Direction

521
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: on Terms of Endearment, which was kind of her It's

522
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: so into like that that and we'll just like link

523
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: to that series because I'm going to like fumble my

524
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 1: way through the summary of her life. But a lot

525
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: of the ways that she was credited and she worked

526
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: in an art director capacity really frequently because that was,

527
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: you know, considered more traditionally to be women's work in film,

528
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 1: and also she was really good at it. But she

529
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: you know, she didn't really have much trouble getting credited

530
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: as an art director, but when it came to the

531
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: actual production, she was never credited. So yeah, I don't

532
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: think that she was an executive producer, and it doesn't

533
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: look like she was nominated for the Academy Award, which

534
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: is ridiculous. Yeah. I don't know if the requirements for

535
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 1: being the Best Picture nominated producer have changed since then,

536
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: but they certainly should have because of that. Um. She

537
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: was the executive vice president of James EL Brooks's production company,

538
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: Gracie Films, so she was involved in quite a few

539
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: of the movies that he was involved with, both as

540
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: a director and a producer going forward. Yeah, and if

541
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: it wasn't for her, the Simpsons wouldn't exist. She introduced

542
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: Matt Grinnig too, if that's how you say his name

543
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: to dubious James L. Brooks. So she's like, she's like

544
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: she is the reason that Cameron Crow had a career,

545
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: which I guess Wes Anderson, she her whole career was

546
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: like making things happen for men and never getting credit

547
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 1: for it. But yeah, I highly recommend listening to that.

548
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: You must remember this season because it will shine a

549
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: light on somebody who was primarily in her career overshadowed

550
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: by people who didn't deserve the limelight as much as

551
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 1: she did, right, Yeah, because she was for the most part,

552
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 1: very much like the common thread in like their best work.

553
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: So it's like, well, you know, who is here for

554
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: all of your best work, and especially for like Peter Bogdanovich,

555
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: which I guess film majors can jump in my mentions

556
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,239
Speaker 1: if they feel like it. But she was involved with

557
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: his two best regarded movies ever and his career, you know,

558
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: kind of that kind of absolutely certainly did take a

559
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: downturn after he decided to divorce her. Yeah, he had

560
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: an affair with um Civil Shepherd. Shepherd on the set

561
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 1: of Last Picture Show, and that was kind of the

562
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: swan song for him being considered a top level a tour. Yeah.

563
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,879
Speaker 1: So Polly Platt, which I just want to make sure

564
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 1: she gets her her do And it also sounded it

565
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: sounded like there was a really good on the ringer.

566
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: There was a really good piece on the production of

567
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: this movie. It's been written about pretty extensively at this point,

568
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: but there were elements of Jane's character that were pulled

569
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: from both Susan Zarinsky, who I think was like the

570
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,800
Speaker 1: main source for Jane's life, who ended up becoming the

571
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,240
Speaker 1: head of CBS News up until like this year, I guess.

572
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: But but there are elements of her character that we're

573
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: pulled from Polly Platt and James Brooks's relationships, so she's

574
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 1: very present in the movie. She she also had to

575
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,719
Speaker 1: take on the movie that I super disagreed with, but

576
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting because I think from her perspective

577
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense because she, you know,

578
00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,760
Speaker 1: her career was very much the story of like trying

579
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: to quote unquote have it all and have a successful

580
00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: marriage and a successful career in film, and she was

581
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: never able to have you know, both at the same time,

582
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 1: as is somewhat common experience, especially in the you know,

583
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: seventies and eighties. Um, So she really really really wanted

584
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: Jane to be able to go with Tom at the

585
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: end of the movie, even if the relationship was doomed.

586
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: She was really frustrated that James L. Brooks wouldn't let

587
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: Jane have some sort of romantic Catharsis, even if it

588
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: was like not the guy for her she was. She

589
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,960
Speaker 1: seemed really really like upset about it that but then

590
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 1: she says in her unpublished memoirs that Karina Longworth read

591
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 1: a lot from in her series that she's She's like,

592
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: I suppose I am a living example that you can

593
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: have the career, but you generally don't get the man.

594
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: So I think she wanted this ending for Jane that

595
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: she didn't get for herself, and that also didn't happen

596
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: in the movie. I think that that would have sucked

597
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: in the movie. But perspective it makes sense. I think

598
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of creative people will do this,

599
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 1: where they will project themselves onto the characters, and that's

600
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,640
Speaker 1: I think a function of the fact that when you

601
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: become a creative person, it's usually because you have a

602
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: surplus of empathy. Sometimes it's because you are a sociopath,

603
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: raging narcissist, super narcissist. But I think, you know, for

604
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: the people who really do the best work, the people

605
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: who you know, we we are beginning to laud more

606
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: than those narcissists, it's empathy. It's being able to put

607
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 1: yourself in the characters and see their perspectives. And I

608
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 1: can see doing that. But James L. Brooks was a

609
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: d percent right. Jane going with Tom is a rejection

610
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: of bathing that Jane stood for as a character. Right,

611
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 1: It's just wrong and it would have been terrible and

612
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,839
Speaker 1: it would have made you dislike Jane even more than

613
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 1: you might have just through the course of the movie.

614
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that it is the way that it is.

615
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: And Jane does get a boyfriend in the in the

616
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: flash forward, Yeah, she does, and and I'm all for

617
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: and we've we've you know, gone back and forth about

618
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: this on our show for Forever, Caitlin. It's like, yeah,

619
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like she she It's clear throughout

620
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 1: the movie that she does want some sort of companionship,

621
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: and so it's like, yeah, I'm rooting for her to

622
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: get a companionship that is equitable and good for her.

623
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: But like, I'm definitely glad she didn't end up with

624
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: either of the men in this movie. When I'm watching, yeah,

625
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: when I'm watching the film, I don't think of her

626
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: having a boyfriend or a husband or something as the goal.

627
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: The real goal for her. It's to have peace, you know,

628
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: internal peace, like the feeling of of intentment and this

629
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: is enough. And that's the part of it that I

630
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 1: relate to. And I think a lot of people probably

631
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: relate to is I need more. I need more. I

632
00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: need to be more successful. I need to have more

633
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: esteem from my peers, more acclaim. I need to be

634
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: a bigger personality. I need to be like the most

635
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 1: huge and loved human being within my sphere of influence.

636
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: And that's what she wants, and that drives her to

637
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: kind of struggle internally for the entire movie, and she thinks,

638
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: maybe Aaron will be the person to give me that piece,

639
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: Maybe Tom will be the person to give me that piece.

640
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: But she has to find it in herself, and by

641
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,960
Speaker 1: being able to say to Tom, no, you are wrong.

642
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stand up for myself. I have limits, and

643
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: then to be rewarded for her talent and her and

644
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: her intelligence and her ability, that's what gives her the

645
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: piece at the end, and I feel like she she's

646
00:39:57,719 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: the one who wins the jackpot. At the end, Tom

647
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: gets what was always coming to him because Tom is

648
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: the white man, the handsome white man in a world

649
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: run by handsome white men. And Aaron gives up and

650
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: he decides, I'm just gonna go to Portlands and you know,

651
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: start growing weed, you know, do local news and stuff.

652
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 1: Jane is the one who gets to really feel like

653
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: she's accomplished what she wanted to accomplish, and she worked

654
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: for it. Tom didn't work for anything. Tom is the

655
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: scion of the American capitalist system. The way in which

656
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 1: he fails upward and is aware that that's what's happening,

657
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 1: it's just so frustrating to watch. And yeah, but the

658
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: movie is really astute about pointing that out. In the

659
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: eighties when we were lauding those people more than anybody else,

660
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: those were our heroes. Yeah, for sure. Well let's let's

661
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: kind of I mean, this is kind of a good opportunity,

662
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 1: I think, to kind of pivot the discussion to Jane

663
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: as a character. I guess the last thing I wanted

664
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:08,320
Speaker 1: to say about the production of the movie was that, um,

665
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 1: because again, Caitlin, like we talked about this on the

666
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: show all the time of like, when men are writing

667
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: female characters, what kind of research are they doing? Who

668
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: were they talking to when they're preparing for a person's

669
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: experience would be wildly different from their own? And it

670
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: does seem like James Brooks is pretty at least by

671
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: the accounts that I read that he was pretty solid

672
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 1: in this department, And I think it does come across

673
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: in the movie where he researched women who were working

674
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 1: in broadcast news in the early to mid eighties pretty extensively.

675
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 1: He interviewed Susan Serinski for I think over the course

676
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: of months, but he spoke to I think it was

677
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: like as many as ten women working in that field,

678
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 1: and you know, just kind of doing the work of

679
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the common threads were, um

680
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: in the struggles they experienced at work. And so I did.

681
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: And and also Susan Zarinsky was an associate producer on

682
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 1: this movie too, so she was also you know, like

683
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: cut in and worked with Holly Hunter. And as as

684
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: far as you know, a male author writing a female character,

685
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 1: I was. I was like, I mean, I guess it's

686
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: like the the bar is so extremely low, but I

687
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: was like pretty impressed. I was like, Okay, he actually

688
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,439
Speaker 1: did his homework. He brought someone into the production who

689
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 1: is an authority on this field in this specific role,

690
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: who worked with the actor, and like it seemed, you know,

691
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: I was um impressed light with that. I thought that

692
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,959
Speaker 1: that was cool that she was like accredited producer as well.

693
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 1: I can't speak for how how women respond to this movie.

694
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: But it always felt natural to me, like it didn't

695
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 1: feel as though he was making things up. And part

696
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: of that probably is his own background in journalism and

697
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: working in in I think of a CBS news when

698
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 1: he first started. That might have helped him see how

699
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,720
Speaker 1: he needed to go about the process of actually making

700
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: this is not to just make it up pull cloth,

701
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: which is I think how a lot of male writers

702
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: and directors will approach a woman's story, and this is

703
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: ultimately Jane's story. He looks at it. It seemed like

704
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: he looked at it more from a journalistic standpoint and

705
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 1: and said, I need to bring some fair similitude to

706
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: a story that I have some understanding of but not

707
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: the full picture. I'm I'm all for male writers doing

708
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: their homework like it's just it's a breath of fresh air.

709
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: It's really nice. Yeah, let's talk about Jane. Jane, sweet Jane.

710
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: She I mean some just pretty obvious stuff here. She

711
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 1: is extremely competent at her job. We see this constantly,

712
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 1: which is something that I feel like in a lot

713
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 1: of movies that center a female character or female protagonist,

714
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: even that is good at her job. We are mostly

715
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: only like told this or like other characters talk about

716
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 1: how good she is at her job, but we don't

717
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 1: actually see any like visual evidence of this. So the

718
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: fact that we constantly see her working and see the

719
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,760
Speaker 1: ways in which she is good at her job again

720
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:39,439
Speaker 1: bare minimum stuff here, but uh, you know, it's it's

721
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: worth noting that that's a very important aspect of her character.

722
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:48,760
Speaker 1: We see her be appreciated for the work that she's doing.

723
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: We see her being valued and recognized. There's one scene

724
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: where the president of the is it the network president

725
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 1: or I think the head of the network news the

726
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: network news division. Yeah, because this is a broadcast network.

727
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: This is this is like an ABCC major yeah, right, right,

728
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,959
Speaker 1: right right, as opposed to like today news channels and stuff.

729
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: Then right, so their boss Paul is like observing her working.

730
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: There's a scene where she's like screaming into the phone

731
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: at someone about like a parking issue. She does like

732
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: body shame someone during that, so we don't love that,

733
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: but she's like getting the job done, and Paul says

734
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: something like I had no idea she was this good,

735
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: and then that leads to her eventually getting like a

736
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: major promotion. So even though it's perhaps not always the

737
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: most realistic thing, especially for a woman in the eighties,

738
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: to be like really acknowledged for the hard work they're

739
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,240
Speaker 1: putting in and being rewarded for it. Because I mean, again,

740
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: looking at Polly Platt and how often she was overlooked,

741
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: it's not uncommon for women, especially of that era, to

742
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: do amazing work and never get any recognition or acknowledgement

743
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,600
Speaker 1: for it. But on the other hand, to see that

744
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: on screen as an example of something that can happen

745
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: and should happen was just really cool to see. So

746
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: I appreciate that aspect of her character. The other kind

747
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: of major thing about her is that she's looking for

748
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: love in all the wrong places. Yeah, yeah, I think that.

749
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: I think there's a little bit of the well, this

750
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: is who is who is the closest person to me?

751
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,279
Speaker 1: And I think that that's probably true of a lot

752
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: of people, um, you know, in in a variety of

753
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 1: different fields, but especially in these kinds of high stress,

754
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: um high impact jobs. You look for someone who understands

755
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: your plate, who understands why you're freaking out and you're unhappy.

756
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 1: You're bursting into tears once a day every day exactly yeah,

757
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: it's so she looks for these people who are going

758
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: to fulfill her. But boy, you know these are not

759
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 1: the best options, but they're the only options. I know.

760
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: It's like I wanted and this is so I mean,

761
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: it's like so upper middle white issues that that everyone

762
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:19,919
Speaker 1: in this movie is having, if not just like full

763
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: blown rich person ship going on. But I'm like, we

764
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 1: gotta get Jane on Riya, like we gotta we gotta

765
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: get Jane like some we gotta get her on up

766
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: on a dating platform. She needs to date someone outside

767
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: of this industry who understands high stress environments but not

768
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: the one that she's in every day. I just was like,

769
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: let's let's get let's get Jane into like two thousand

770
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 1: and twenty one and see and see what's up then,

771
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 1: because give her a yoga class, some crystal juice regimen,

772
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: get her good, some goop. Tell Jane about Goop, like

773
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 1: you just you know what, girl, wash your face, Okay,

774
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 1: watch your face. The thing with Jada is she is

775
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: an unrepentant girl boss and like the kind it's it's true,

776
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: and it's like and it bearss saying that. The kind

777
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: of news that's being done here which I guess it's

778
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: like it's hard for me to go into like seven

779
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: audience brain here because now I feel like there's been

780
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:23,920
Speaker 1: there's been so much discussion around news bias and mass

781
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 1: media news bias um that now when you see this

782
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, you're like, oh, this is this. You know,

783
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:31,839
Speaker 1: this news has a very clear tilt. It's always going

784
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: to prioritize the West. It's always going to prioritize the

785
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 1: white West, and and on and on and so in

786
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: some ways, it's like, if I'm looking at Jane on paper, No,

787
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 1: I don't really like her that much, but I do

788
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:51,920
Speaker 1: appreciate her commitment to two ethics and I can empathize

789
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:56,120
Speaker 1: with her on I mean, I guess on I got

790
00:48:56,200 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: kind of like lost in my how how I actually

791
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 1: like fall on this because we see Jane have these

792
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: like literally like power cries at multiple points in the movie,

793
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 1: and I do think it kind of becomes a joke

794
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 1: as the movie goes on that like she's going to

795
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 1: just take any moment she can find to herself, which

796
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: is not often, to like have a power cry, and

797
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: then she'll either pull it together or someone will walk

798
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 1: in and she'll be forced to pull it together, which

799
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,800
Speaker 1: I think is like, you know, I don't hate that choice.

800
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 1: I don't know she she is so tricky. I mean,

801
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: it's like there's no one in this movie that you

802
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 1: are rooting for because it's like, Okay, I want you

803
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:41,399
Speaker 1: know Jane too. I don't know. I mean, I guess

804
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 1: I I like her on the Okay, where is this going?

805
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: I think that Jane has a problem that I don't

806
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:54,200
Speaker 1: think he's really often seen in movies, where Jane is

807
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: like primarily valued for her skill at her job, which

808
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,839
Speaker 1: I don't think we see female characters valued for primarily

809
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: at least in movies very often. But it also shows

810
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 1: the offset of that and what I what I think

811
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: is like a pretty logical thing that she feels is

812
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 1: missing from her life is like, oh, people value me

813
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,439
Speaker 1: for my ability so much, but like what about me?

814
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: And like what about who I really am? And like

815
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: my desires and what I want in life? And both

816
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: of the men in this like sort of love triangle

817
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: we're being presented with do seem to value her ability

818
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: over who she actually is. And that I thought was

819
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,839
Speaker 1: like a pretty interesting thing to see on screen. And

820
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: I don't think that there's a lot of movies that

821
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,200
Speaker 1: have really done that because I think that, like there

822
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 1: is this whole current wave feminism of like it is

823
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: really good to be valued for your skills, which it is,

824
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: but also like to be valued for your skills and

825
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 1: not yourself, Like that sucks and that feels bad. And

826
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: I I think it's interesting that that comes through in

827
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,600
Speaker 1: her character and her storyline. I think that there's still

828
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: a an element of vampirism to the relationships she has

829
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: with both men. Is even though oh great, you know

830
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 1: they value her her ability, they want that ability for themselves.

831
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: The seduction in this movie, the grand scene where Tom

832
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: is like, whoa Jane? Okay, now I really notice her,

833
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: is when she allows him to do the nightly news

834
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:39,359
Speaker 1: without ruining it, without saying something inappropriate or you know,

835
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,360
Speaker 1: getting something wrong. She guides him to where he needs

836
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: to be in his career. Aaron similarly, is constantly looking

837
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 1: to her for approval and acceptance and some kind of

838
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 1: help in his career. And he said, Aaron is always saying,

839
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, I know you better than you know yourself,

840
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: for like we're best friends, were doing all this stuff

841
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 1: because that's Aaron needs her to give him this validation.

842
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 1: So they're constantly just taking from her, but they never

843
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: asked her how she's doing, or what's going on in

844
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 1: her mind, or why she feels the way that she does.

845
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: It is just it's constantly like psychically sucking the energy

846
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: out of her. And that's why she has to pick

847
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: neither of them, because if she went with either one

848
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 1: of those guys, they would just like whittle her into

849
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: a little tiny nub. Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm very

850
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: glad that she picks neither of them. I would have

851
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 1: been simply furious if the movie had her ended up

852
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 1: with one or the other of them. It would have sucked.

853
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: But then you have this yet another example of a movie,

854
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 1: and this is something we've talked here and there about

855
00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: on the podcast of a very career driven woman who

856
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: is very successful in her line of work and very competent,

857
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 1: who doesn't it's sort of that like women can't have

858
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:16,719
Speaker 1: it all thing where we see her not able to

859
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: you know, she again she's looking for love, she has

860
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:22,239
Speaker 1: trouble finding it, and when she does find something that

861
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 1: seems like it might be a romantic prospect, she can't

862
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: maintain a relationship. And even at the end when she

863
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 1: has this like boyfriend who she's known for like three

864
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,479
Speaker 1: months or something like that, and you know, we don't

865
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: know how serious it is or if that's going to

866
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: be kind of fleeting or whatever. But well, that's also

867
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: like one way of looking at it where it's like,

868
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, she's she's really good at her job, but

869
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:49,480
Speaker 1: that's the only thing she gets to have. She can't

870
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: have love because women can't have it all. But then

871
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 1: there's also like, but then you could see it like, well,

872
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 1: she doesn't need a man. Her her passion and her

873
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 1: love is her job, and so I'm kind of torn.

874
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: But it's like she wants one, but she wants love. Yeah, right,

875
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 1: I think that that's such an like it's interesting and

876
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I don't know, it's almost like an

877
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 1: impossible puzzle to solve right where It's like I feel

878
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,919
Speaker 1: like if she if this movie resolves with like her

879
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 1: being like, oh wait, there was this guy I knew

880
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: from college who respects me and like fulfills me in

881
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: every way, like that would be I guess it's like

882
00:54:32,600 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: I was struggling with that too. Or it's like it's

883
00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 1: like it's idealism versus the reality. Of her time and

884
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: her profession, which which does come off as bleak because

885
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: it is. And that's why I was really interested in

886
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: how frustrated Polly Platt was by how her story ends,

887
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: because we all agree that she shouldn't have ended up

888
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,960
Speaker 1: with one of the assholes in the movie, But it

889
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 1: seems like Polly Platt very much wanted the more idealistic

890
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 1: ending to this, which is that she was able to

891
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: be fulfilled on every level, which I know is possible

892
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: and I know that women of this era were able

893
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: to have that. But I would be interested to hear

894
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: from our listeners of this generation who are women uh

895
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: in the workplace at this time as well, because it

896
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 1: does seem like there is kind of this very bleak

897
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: realism to Jane's character of or that's like one way

898
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,959
Speaker 1: to look at it, Like I can see it as like, well,

899
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: funk James L. Brooks for not giving this very motivated,

900
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 1: intelligent female character at the happy ending she deserved. But

901
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 1: then I can also see it as like, well, what,

902
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 1: we're very intelligent, highly motivated women in the workplace at

903
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,720
Speaker 1: this time actually getting and what does this movie reflect

904
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 1: of that? And I don't know, Yeah, it's it's really

905
00:55:50,160 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: thorny and tough, and I mean, I I like that

906
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: this movie kind of engages with that, but it is

907
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 1: like it's a bummer for I Like, I feel it

908
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: is kind of a cool choice to at the end

909
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,400
Speaker 1: add the flourish of like, maybe this is going to

910
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 1: be the relationship that works for her, and maybe she

911
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 1: is like on the brink of having it all because

912
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,959
Speaker 1: she had to deal with all this bullshit and got

913
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: her career in line and rejected these two assholes and

914
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 1: moved on with her life. But but we don't know.

915
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, I've always liked the kind of ellipsus,

916
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: the elliptical nature of it, where it just kind of

917
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 1: leaves you wondering. I hope she gets what she wants,

918
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: but you don't know because she's still herself and she

919
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: still is grappling with these things because she hasn't had

920
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: the complete like revelation, Oh, this is how we solve

921
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 1: the problem, because none of us really ever do. That's

922
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 1: the thing that I think separates great films from very

923
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:49,520
Speaker 1: good films is the acceptance of the fact that most

924
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: of us will never solve the one big problem in

925
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: our lives because it's hard. That's work that never ends.

926
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,360
Speaker 1: We're constant only trying to perfect ourselves and and perfection

927
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: is impossible. Um. It is worth noting that the year

928
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: after this movie came out, that was the year of

929
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:15,879
Speaker 1: Working Girl, directed by Mike Nichols, starring Melanie Griffith, Harrison Ford,

930
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 1: Sigourney Weaver, and that movie, in contrast to this one,

931
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 1: is about where where Jane is kind of you know, um,

932
00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: I think, always destined for success, upper class kind of person,

933
00:57:29,280 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 1: lauded for her her intelligence. Melanie Griffith's character in that

934
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: movie is considered lower class and doesn't belong on Wall Street,

935
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: which is certainly a less morally upright profession than broadcast

936
00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: news at that time. Neither are great, but that one's

937
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: definitely you know, yeh, like yeah, on the list. At

938
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: least you know they were trying to tell the truth

939
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,080
Speaker 1: on some level, but not really. Um, Mellie Griffith gets

940
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: everything she wants the end, She gets the corner office,

941
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: she gets all the fancy clothes, she gets Harrison Ford

942
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: at the end, even though Harrison Ford in that movie

943
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: is kind of a jerk. Oh god, she sucks, he sucks, yeah, exactly, Like,

944
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,680
Speaker 1: but like that was the inverse of this. And if

945
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,520
Speaker 1: I like Working Girl because it's funny and it's it's

946
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 1: kind of like an amusing fairy tale. But of the two,

947
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 1: Broadcast News is far superior to me because it does

948
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: paint the realistic picture of human beings constantly stepping on themselves,

949
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: trying to succeed and trying to be better people and

950
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 1: failing miserably. And that's how I feel as a human

951
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: being all the time. Yeah, And it's like and I think, like,

952
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:49,840
Speaker 1: and that's part of why it's like a tough pill

953
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: to swallow. But it's like this this movie doesn't present

954
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: itself as the bizarro like Reagan era fairy tale that

955
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: Working Girl does. And you and listen to our episode

956
00:59:01,880 --> 00:59:06,960
Speaker 1: about Working Girl on on the Patreonic that we did

957
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 1: I think a year and a half ago, even years ago,

958
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: yah know when that was. We've covered it. But but yeah,

959
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: I agree that, Like, I think that this movie has

960
00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: endured more and it's partially for those reasons, Like I

961
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: don't know, it's it's I I like that Jane's ending

962
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: is pretty ambiguous and like opens up this kind of discussion.

963
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: It's cool to have these discussions, and you know, how

964
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: the discussion of a woman's career in seven would be

965
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 1: different than now, hopefully in some ways. And it does

966
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 1: seem like a cool I don't know, just like marker

967
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: of of where things were at, especially because and again

968
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to give James Albert too much credit here,

969
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 1: but he was he was engaging with very popular female

970
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: characters who were in the workplace, um for fifteen years

971
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: before this movie came out, and he or over fifteen

972
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,959
Speaker 1: years where he was working in the Mary Tyler Moore Show,

973
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: which was like a huge component of second wave feminist entertainment,

974
01:00:11,240 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: where it was like a huge deal that a career

975
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 1: woman was being centered in any way, regardless of what

976
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: she was doing, even and and now it seems like

977
01:00:20,600 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: pitally nothing because you're like, okay, a white woman working

978
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 1: in an office like I'm asleep, but but you know, like,

979
01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 1: but that wasn't always the case, and it's he he

980
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:35,120
Speaker 1: seems to have been engaging with kind of this story,

981
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:37,120
Speaker 1: you know that not this story, but just like this

982
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: social movement pretty consistently, and it's interesting to watch it

983
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:43,080
Speaker 1: kind of bear out in this way where like by

984
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: the late eighties, it's clear that characters like Jane have

985
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 1: benefited from second wave feminism and that she is highly

986
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 1: respected in her profession, but she's still a person, and

987
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: she is still experiencing sexism in this space, and she

988
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: is still being you know, vampired and used by the

989
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 1: people around her in spite of the successes of the

990
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: past you know, ten fifteen years of feminism. It's wild.

991
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: One thing. I do think that in terms of like

992
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 1: how her character has written that I feel like there

993
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: was room for that. I would have liked some of

994
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 1: the time to be reallocated. I'm not advocating for the

995
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 1: movie to be longer, but um I will it's it's

996
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:30,600
Speaker 1: four hours. Why not. I wish that she had a

997
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 1: woman to talk to in the story. I feel like

998
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 1: those characters were present, especially with right there, like I

999
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:43,959
Speaker 1: I understand probably I can imagine James Brooks's argument for like, well,

1000
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,200
Speaker 1: she was intimidated by her and blah blah blah. But

1001
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,920
Speaker 1: it's like there was room for two women in this

1002
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: workplace to have meaningful conversations that would have lifted the

1003
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: story in general. And I wish that there had been

1004
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,560
Speaker 1: room made for that because the characters are literally there,

1005
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: like it's frustrating that they don't engage with that at all. Yeah,

1006
01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 1: the conversations between Joan Cusacks character Blair and Jane are

1007
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 1: really minimal, to the point where every time Blair popped

1008
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,840
Speaker 1: up again in the story, I'm like, all right, John

1009
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 1: Cusacks in this movie, Like, she's there so infrequently that

1010
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 1: you could basically write her out of the movie and

1011
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:30,720
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be different at all. And as much as

1012
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:34,080
Speaker 1: we love to see her run through that obstacle course

1013
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: to get the tape in on time, that kind of

1014
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:41,520
Speaker 1: could have been anyone. So the fact that she's not

1015
01:02:41,800 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: a more important character is pretty glaring. It stands out

1016
01:02:47,760 --> 01:02:51,800
Speaker 1: only because of the performance. But the female character that

1017
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,160
Speaker 1: I want to talk about before we move on that

1018
01:02:56,160 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: always chaps my ask the most is Jen of her

1019
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 1: played by Lois Childs, who was also in the James

1020
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,880
Speaker 1: Bond film Moonraker and I believe was a model for

1021
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:11,439
Speaker 1: many years. Interesting that, Yeah, I think that was maybe

1022
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 1: her first movie. But um, I mean, she has done

1023
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: no favors in this film. She is there specifically to

1024
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: be derided and to be an obstacle of a sort

1025
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: for Jane, and I think they have one conversation and

1026
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 1: this is I guess getting ahead of ourselves about the

1027
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: Bechdel test. But they have one conversation and I believe

1028
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:39,360
Speaker 1: it is specifically about Tom. Oh yeah, and there is

1029
01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 1: nothing else going on there. They don't have any rapport

1030
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: related to their unique position in a broadcast network newsroom

1031
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:53,800
Speaker 1: in they don't talk about their own hopes and dreams.

1032
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 1: They don't talk about UM, the struggles that they have,

1033
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:59,640
Speaker 1: or or the conflicts that they have. It is just

1034
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 1: about Mom. And I mean, she's played for UM for

1035
01:04:04,120 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: comic relief the entire time, and we're supposed to be

1036
01:04:07,720 --> 01:04:12,880
Speaker 1: so amused by the fact that she has banished to Alaska,

1037
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: which but I feel bad. I feel bad for her.

1038
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: Tom was cute. She just wanted to hook up with Tom.

1039
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:25,080
Speaker 1: The thing is, like, I like Jennifer. I feel like

1040
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: Jennifer is. I wish that she's been written out more,

1041
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,760
Speaker 1: and I wish that Jane had been taken to task

1042
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 1: more for doing what she did, because she derailed did

1043
01:04:36,320 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: Jennifer's life and career entirely where I thought it was

1044
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 1: like I thought. I mean, I don't know, Klin, I'm

1045
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: interested in your opinion on this as a well, But

1046
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: like when when Jennifer goes up to Jane at whatever

1047
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:54,280
Speaker 1: that news hard Heart and it's like, hey, I'm interested

1048
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: in Tom, Like I wasn't sure if there's something going

1049
01:04:57,360 --> 01:04:59,280
Speaker 1: on with you. I just wanted to check in. I

1050
01:04:59,320 --> 01:05:02,280
Speaker 1: was like, wow, O, that's like she didn't technically have

1051
01:05:02,400 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: to do that. They weren't friends. It was like I thought,

1052
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:07,280
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's that's what a what a

1053
01:05:07,360 --> 01:05:11,919
Speaker 1: nice person does um or if not nice, conflict a verse.

1054
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 1: I could relate with it. But she she was just like, hey,

1055
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: I'm interested in Tom. Is there anything going on? And

1056
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 1: then she gets a feeling from Jane that oh Jane

1057
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 1: is interested and she's like, okay, fine, then I'll back off. Fine.

1058
01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:27,800
Speaker 1: And then Jane is the one who acts like, you know,

1059
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,720
Speaker 1: just bizarre about it, and it's like, oh no, go

1060
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 1: fuck him right now, kind of like she's very immature

1061
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:39,480
Speaker 1: about it. And then Jennifer is like okay, and then

1062
01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 1: she does, and then she's punished for it, like, yeah,

1063
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: it's not cool. I think that, like Jane is written

1064
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 1: to be cool, and so the fact that she is

1065
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 1: like so unceremoniously written out as a punchline rather than

1066
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 1: like it, it would have been like another interesting thing

1067
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: that could have happened is like and again I'm just like, yeah,

1068
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: tell James Brooks what I think he should have done

1069
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: thirty years ago. But like, you know, there are other

1070
01:06:07,200 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, maybe there's another person in the at the

1071
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: news station who would have been piste off on Jennifer's

1072
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: behalf for the fact that she was clearly banished to Alaska, Like,

1073
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: did Jennifer have any friends that we're going to stick

1074
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 1: up for her? Why is no one mad about this? Nobody?

1075
01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:26,000
Speaker 1: Because Jane was Jane was being an asshole, and like

1076
01:06:26,080 --> 01:06:28,720
Speaker 1: that is one of the things that for me watching

1077
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:32,000
Speaker 1: in one, I was like, Oh, Jane can be a

1078
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: real like, you know, really weaponize her insecurities against other people.

1079
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,360
Speaker 1: I mean, especially because she gets on her high horse

1080
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: about ethics in reporting the news. And then she's she

1081
01:06:45,200 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 1: makes this choice too, because she had the choice between

1082
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,560
Speaker 1: a character named George, who we could also talk about,

1083
01:06:52,160 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: and Jennifer as the person who they're going to send

1084
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 1: to Alaska to report on some Alaskan serial killer, and

1085
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: without a moment's hesitation, the second Jane, here's Jennifer's name

1086
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: as an option. She's just like Jennifer Son, Jennifer and

1087
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 1: it's because she's trying to get rid of her so

1088
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: that she can move in on Tom, who, by the way,

1089
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:17,960
Speaker 1: had called the reason that Jane was like, yeah, Jennifer,

1090
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: you can go after him, I don't care is because

1091
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 1: Tom went up to her and he's like, you look

1092
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: so pretty and clean, because normally at the office you

1093
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 1: have this gross layer of film on you. Oh my god.

1094
01:07:29,400 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 1: She was like, well that, thank you. It's so it's

1095
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 1: so frustrating, yeah, because it's I mean, it's like I think,

1096
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:38,160
Speaker 1: I hope that we're supposed to you know, that's supposed

1097
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 1: to be like audience wise, a strike against Jane, and

1098
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: clearly like you know, she she's like you're saying, Caitlin

1099
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: constantly on her high horse about ethics, but then in

1100
01:07:47,920 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 1: practice her record is spotty or than she'd like to admit.

1101
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:54,840
Speaker 1: But the most frustrating thing is if Jane had just

1102
01:07:54,920 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 1: been straightforward and been like, no, I'm interested in Tom,

1103
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 1: like I would appreciate if you didn't hook up with him.

1104
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: It sounds like Jennifer would have been like okay and

1105
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 1: moved on with her life and this never would have

1106
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 1: been a problem. Jennifer is kind of cool. She's cool.

1107
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 1: She's a very chill lady, and she's just kind of like, yeah,

1108
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:15,400
Speaker 1: I was living my life whatever Tom's. There's a scene

1109
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 1: where I felt bad for Jennifer too. I think it's

1110
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:22,879
Speaker 1: pretty early on where all the reporters at the station

1111
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 1: are kind of like asking each other ethics questions where

1112
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:29,720
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, would you tell a source you love

1113
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 1: them to get information out of them? And they were

1114
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: all like, yep, of course I would. And then when

1115
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 1: when like Jennifer confirms that she would, Aaron is like, yeah,

1116
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: Jennifer didn't know that there was any other option, as

1117
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,880
Speaker 1: if to be like, wow, Jennifer, what a floosy She's

1118
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 1: out there loving and having sex with all of her sources.

1119
01:08:53,280 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 1: I do wonder, basically, I do wonder if there was,

1120
01:08:56,160 --> 01:09:00,240
Speaker 1: like in My Okay two things like, I wonder there

1121
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 1: was some sort of deleted scene where this is addressed,

1122
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: because it does seem like Jennifer is a pretty like

1123
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 1: heavily set up character to completely disappear with a throw

1124
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,360
Speaker 1: a joke. It does feel kind of bizarre to me,

1125
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 1: given the rest of the characters in this movie. Nothing

1126
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 1: else for Jennifer. She is long gone to Alaska, that

1127
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,800
Speaker 1: is the end of Jennifer. I liked this scene. I

1128
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 1: liked the other like one of her moments where after

1129
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:26,720
Speaker 1: she and Tom do hook up, Tom notices that she

1130
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 1: has like a spare room in her apartment maybe that

1131
01:09:30,520 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 1: is like for her clothes, and Jennifer gets defensive before

1132
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: he even says anything, and it's like, oh, well, I

1133
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,840
Speaker 1: had that extra space, and you know, it felt like

1134
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 1: kind of you know, however you feel about it, like

1135
01:09:43,320 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: commentary on how female news anchors have a higher pressure

1136
01:09:47,920 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 1: to look a certain way than their male counterparts, to

1137
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 1: the point where she felt the need to like get

1138
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 1: ahead of his potential criticism. And that was like another

1139
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,320
Speaker 1: like pretty thoughtful moment, I thought. And then she just

1140
01:10:00,439 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 1: she just disappears. I hope that she wins a Pulitzer

1141
01:10:03,240 --> 01:10:06,600
Speaker 1: in Alaska. That's my head canon for she catches the

1142
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: serial killer. They make an incredible docuseries about it, and

1143
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 1: Jane is kicking herself. Yeah. I mean, I think this is,

1144
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:21,719
Speaker 1: like you said, Jamie, a very very tricky movie because

1145
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 1: it isn't cleanly moralistic. It isn't cleanly one side or

1146
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:32,720
Speaker 1: the other. It is very messy with the perspective, and

1147
01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: I think that that is one, as we've all pointed out,

1148
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:38,920
Speaker 1: a fault of the fact that it came out of

1149
01:10:40,760 --> 01:10:44,040
Speaker 1: but also I think it's because this is a movie

1150
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 1: that is conflicted about its own subject matter. It's conflicted

1151
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 1: about the idea of the news and whether or not

1152
01:10:53,600 --> 01:10:57,799
Speaker 1: the news is good as it is portrayed in the world. Um,

1153
01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,519
Speaker 1: there's the that whole sequence when they're in the um

1154
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:06,080
Speaker 1: involved in the the war. I don't even remember what country,

1155
01:11:06,960 --> 01:11:09,839
Speaker 1: nicarag I'm glad that they actually had a country instead

1156
01:11:09,840 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 1: of just like, we're in a war zone and there

1157
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: are people that don't speak English. Um, it's it's played

1158
01:11:16,840 --> 01:11:23,400
Speaker 1: not for laughs necessarily, but they are oddly not engaged

1159
01:11:23,600 --> 01:11:26,400
Speaker 1: with anything. They're kind of detached from the fact that

1160
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 1: they're in a war zone, that there are people losing

1161
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: their tea. Yeah, it's opportunistic. It is not empathetic. It

1162
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: is not oh my goodness, this is this is a

1163
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: situation where people's lives are being lost, that there's political

1164
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:42,880
Speaker 1: upheaval and you know whose side are we on? You know,

1165
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 1: why is this happening. It's just here's the thing that happened,

1166
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 1: and can we get a shot of the boots? Okay,

1167
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:51,400
Speaker 1: we got a shot of the boots. Great, nobody got shot, Okay, wonderful.

1168
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:54,719
Speaker 1: It's just very matter of fact. And I think today,

1169
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 1: you know now we would say, you know that detachment

1170
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: is actually bad. That the the people who are nostalgic

1171
01:12:01,479 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: for the days of the news being told for thirty

1172
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 1: minutes every five five o'clock every day and we're objective

1173
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,920
Speaker 1: is not realistic or feasible. You can't be objective in

1174
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 1: the news when horrible things are happening. You have to

1175
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 1: speak out and you have to tell it not like

1176
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 1: it is, but tell people what it shouldn't be, if

1177
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:26,920
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Um. And so this movie I think

1178
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:31,400
Speaker 1: has that ambivalence about the news, and it's satirical about

1179
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:39,680
Speaker 1: that world. So it makes every character's decisions more glaringly negative. Um,

1180
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:43,000
Speaker 1: everybody is doing the wrong thing because the movie isn't

1181
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:46,960
Speaker 1: sure if the thing that the career, the industry that

1182
01:12:47,000 --> 01:12:50,559
Speaker 1: they have given their lives too is even good. Yeah,

1183
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 1: And I think that's that's kind of where like Jane's

1184
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:58,040
Speaker 1: Girl Boss angle does kind of come in is like, yes,

1185
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:01,559
Speaker 1: you you are, like ten did as an audience member

1186
01:13:01,600 --> 01:13:04,400
Speaker 1: and as someone who generally is like women succeeding could

1187
01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:08,360
Speaker 1: could be good, uh to say like, well, look, she's

1188
01:13:08,360 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: succeeding at a really high level in this field, but

1189
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:14,760
Speaker 1: what is she actually doing and like what are the

1190
01:13:14,800 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: ethics and what is the impact of what she's actually doing.

1191
01:13:17,240 --> 01:13:21,080
Speaker 1: It's not like it's not universally good at all. And

1192
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:24,200
Speaker 1: I like that the yeah that the movie like that

1193
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 1: that the scene where they're reporting in Nicaragua, I feel

1194
01:13:28,960 --> 01:13:31,520
Speaker 1: like at least now like comes off as pretty embarrassing

1195
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 1: for them too. It's like they can barely communicate with

1196
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 1: the people that they are supposed to be reporting on

1197
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,400
Speaker 1: and about. And then it's ultimately kind of played as

1198
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,560
Speaker 1: this little romantic tension when they're in the middle of

1199
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:47,160
Speaker 1: like you're saying, to have a war zone where people

1200
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: are dying, and they're kind of like, wow, this is

1201
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:52,839
Speaker 1: so exciting. She'll be kiss no, and it's like they're

1202
01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 1: just like centering themselves in this way that looks ridiculous. Yeah,

1203
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:01,040
Speaker 1: And I think the movie, to its credit, does recognize

1204
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 1: how ridiculous it is, right, Yeah, Yeah, I I do.

1205
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:07,679
Speaker 1: I do. I do like that because it's like there,

1206
01:14:07,720 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's what what Jane is fighting for in

1207
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 1: this industry is I guess on this watch for me.

1208
01:14:15,200 --> 01:14:17,840
Speaker 1: It was like, it's like she's just fighting for like

1209
01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:21,840
Speaker 1: a two percent better thing than what she's currently doing,

1210
01:14:22,080 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 1: which is better. Like, I agree that Jane's version of

1211
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:28,639
Speaker 1: the news is better than Tom's version of the news,

1212
01:14:29,160 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 1: But is it better enough to justify rooting for it? No?

1213
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 1: But is she right? Yes, it's the eighties were an

1214
01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 1: era of incremental progress, the nineties eighties, Yeah, you're the

1215
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:46,479
Speaker 1: two thousand's. On some level, it's like, okay, well, you know,

1216
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: we we've made some strides, right, ladies, right, everybody. You know,

1217
01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:56,000
Speaker 1: black people can be senators now, isn't that amazing? Dude? Dude?

1218
01:14:56,160 --> 01:15:04,120
Speaker 1: Do dude, dude? And is Obama and Hillary and oh

1219
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, black people can can operate drones to like this,

1220
01:15:08,200 --> 01:15:12,200
Speaker 1: is this wonderful? We can have a Korean head of

1221
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,719
Speaker 1: the CIA or whatever it is that like we're starting

1222
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:17,599
Speaker 1: to like look at it that way. And now people, finally,

1223
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:22,080
Speaker 1: you know, in in this era, are seeing it's not

1224
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: enough to just have incremental progress to put people of

1225
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: color or marginalized groups into these jobs that are fundamentally

1226
01:15:32,600 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 1: bad for the planet. It is not just about having

1227
01:15:37,240 --> 01:15:39,280
Speaker 1: a person of color as the head of the CIA,

1228
01:15:39,479 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: because it's the CIA that is the problem, right, that

1229
01:15:42,600 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: those are the things that we couldn't fathom or grapple with.

1230
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:50,920
Speaker 1: That now people are are are able to to to

1231
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:54,840
Speaker 1: grapple with because we don't have the illusion that the

1232
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 1: system itself is good. And I think in broadcast news

1233
01:15:58,479 --> 01:16:01,519
Speaker 1: and in a lot of other quote unquote feminist movies

1234
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:06,599
Speaker 1: from that era, baby baby boom, um with um Diane Keaton,

1235
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, that's like, oh, look at how great it

1236
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:10,599
Speaker 1: is that Diane Keaton is able to have a kid

1237
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 1: and you know, be a boss. Like, that's not good.

1238
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:19,160
Speaker 1: What does her company even do? It's probably like selling

1239
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:23,080
Speaker 1: arms to the Contras or something. I don't know. This

1240
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:27,560
Speaker 1: isn't right, baby, So we did, and that baby is

1241
01:16:27,560 --> 01:16:30,720
Speaker 1: going to end up inheriting millions of dollars and probably

1242
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:35,000
Speaker 1: being a bad person. Um. Yeah, it's it's just a

1243
01:16:35,040 --> 01:16:37,799
Speaker 1: different way of looking at the world. And I'm glad

1244
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:42,679
Speaker 1: that we are outside of the expectation that incremental progress

1245
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:46,599
Speaker 1: is going to save us. It is not. Yeah, let's

1246
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:49,920
Speaker 1: take another quick break and then we'll come back for

1247
01:16:50,040 --> 01:17:00,120
Speaker 1: more discussion. And we're back. Is there any other stuff

1248
01:17:00,120 --> 01:17:03,439
Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about? Jane? Before we started going

1249
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 1: into I have like a few little things, but to

1250
01:17:06,320 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 1: take it away. UM. Oh well, one of the one

1251
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:12,120
Speaker 1: of the exchanges that I really did like, and I

1252
01:17:12,160 --> 01:17:13,800
Speaker 1: watched the scene back a couple of times because it

1253
01:17:13,880 --> 01:17:16,720
Speaker 1: was like, I don't know, Hollyhunter is really good in

1254
01:17:16,760 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 1: this scene where I I do again, it's like, this

1255
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:24,680
Speaker 1: is in the context of what Jane is doing is

1256
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:27,880
Speaker 1: ultimately not good for the world. I do think it's

1257
01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:30,439
Speaker 1: like there are a few elements of her character where

1258
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:32,960
Speaker 1: she she is a huge advocate for the people who

1259
01:17:33,000 --> 01:17:35,880
Speaker 1: work for her, um in a way that I thought

1260
01:17:35,960 --> 01:17:39,280
Speaker 1: was was really cool, Like when she's trying to get

1261
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: Aaron to be the anchor on the story about Libya

1262
01:17:43,160 --> 01:17:47,320
Speaker 1: because he actually knows what he's talking about, has expertise

1263
01:17:47,360 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 1: in this area to an extent, and you know, can

1264
01:17:50,680 --> 01:17:55,719
Speaker 1: unlike Tom, can like do the job that Tom admits

1265
01:17:55,800 --> 01:17:58,559
Speaker 1: he cannot do. UM. I thought it was it was

1266
01:17:58,680 --> 01:18:01,479
Speaker 1: cool to see her really, you know, go up against

1267
01:18:01,520 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 1: the superior and advocate for someone who she knew would

1268
01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:07,559
Speaker 1: do a better job. And that whole exchange of like,

1269
01:18:08,120 --> 01:18:11,720
Speaker 1: you know, being patronized and like she it's that complicated

1270
01:18:11,760 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: girl boss thing where you're like she is being met

1271
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:18,639
Speaker 1: with some misogyny but doesn't justify the ends, not really,

1272
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,320
Speaker 1: but you know, it must be terrible being the smartest

1273
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:23,040
Speaker 1: person in the room is, you know, being kind of

1274
01:18:23,080 --> 01:18:26,760
Speaker 1: patronized by her boss, and she says it's awful, and

1275
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: it's like she means it. I loved that. I loved

1276
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:34,519
Speaker 1: I mean because it's like she she's right, she is

1277
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:37,040
Speaker 1: right in this situation, and we know she is. And

1278
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:42,360
Speaker 1: there are still these like these little misogynistic ways where

1279
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,759
Speaker 1: she's treated where I feel like with her relationship with Aaron,

1280
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:49,400
Speaker 1: there's this expectation that she's going to be maternal towards

1281
01:18:49,479 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 1: him in a way that in terms of a working

1282
01:18:52,080 --> 01:18:56,800
Speaker 1: relationship makes no sense at all. But like that he,

1283
01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:00,559
Speaker 1: you know, feels entitled to bargein in her life in

1284
01:19:00,600 --> 01:19:04,640
Speaker 1: whatever way he pleases. He feels entitled to her emotional

1285
01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,640
Speaker 1: energy at the drop of a hat for reasons. You know,

1286
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:12,400
Speaker 1: It's like she has to go see him the night

1287
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 1: that he anchors the news she has you know, she

1288
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 1: adjusts his clothes, She does all these little maternal things

1289
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:22,800
Speaker 1: that are not her job, but she clearly feels, you know,

1290
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:26,639
Speaker 1: compelled or obligated to do for him. That does feel

1291
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 1: like very I don't know, it's interesting to see those

1292
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,640
Speaker 1: like moments that you're like, oh, this is very intentionally.

1293
01:19:32,800 --> 01:19:34,680
Speaker 1: I felt like it was like written very intentionally. It

1294
01:19:34,760 --> 01:19:37,439
Speaker 1: was like a half step towards progress of like is

1295
01:19:37,479 --> 01:19:41,360
Speaker 1: she technically his superior, Yes, but look at how he

1296
01:19:41,439 --> 01:19:44,720
Speaker 1: still feels so entitled her time and her energy in

1297
01:19:44,760 --> 01:19:48,600
Speaker 1: spite of that. This this makes me think about the

1298
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:52,960
Speaker 1: concept of the work wife, which is I think best

1299
01:19:53,080 --> 01:19:55,960
Speaker 1: left in the twentieth century, but it's the thing that

1300
01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:59,759
Speaker 1: people still talk about a lot, maybe less so now

1301
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:03,680
Speaker 1: that we are in a post COVID world where we

1302
01:20:03,760 --> 01:20:06,719
Speaker 1: are not going to offices and there isn't that forced

1303
01:20:06,800 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 1: camaraderie between employees and in a workplace anymore. But there

1304
01:20:13,200 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 1: was certainly for many, many years this idea of oh boy,

1305
01:20:16,040 --> 01:20:18,880
Speaker 1: those two they just like they're like peas in a pot,

1306
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:21,760
Speaker 1: you know, that guy and that woman, and they just

1307
01:20:21,880 --> 01:20:24,360
Speaker 1: have this great relationship. And she's my work wife and

1308
01:20:24,360 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 1: he's my work husband. And it's a blurring of the

1309
01:20:26,960 --> 01:20:31,040
Speaker 1: lines that people thought was funny. That was the cause

1310
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 1: of you know, there was the launching pad for a

1311
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:36,240
Speaker 1: lot of sitcoms and things of that nature. But it's

1312
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:40,160
Speaker 1: really like inappropriate ultimately. Uh. And I can look back

1313
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:44,559
Speaker 1: on you know, workplace relationships friendships where it's like this

1314
01:20:44,640 --> 01:20:48,439
Speaker 1: is we should just be co workers. But because we

1315
01:20:49,000 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 1: no one talked about this stuff back then, it was like, oh,

1316
01:20:52,400 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 1: this is just how it's supposed to be, you know,

1317
01:20:53,960 --> 01:20:56,640
Speaker 1: we we can you know, have this kind of a

1318
01:20:56,840 --> 01:21:03,080
Speaker 1: meshed codependent work relationship that is allegedly platonic but not

1319
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:07,080
Speaker 1: necessarily so. And I think that holds back a lot

1320
01:21:07,160 --> 01:21:10,120
Speaker 1: of workplace equality. Is this idea that you can't have

1321
01:21:10,240 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 1: these platonic relationships with people, um where you don't have

1322
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,280
Speaker 1: a line, there is no line in the sand of

1323
01:21:20,400 --> 01:21:23,600
Speaker 1: this is okay, this is not okay, and this is

1324
01:21:24,000 --> 01:21:27,760
Speaker 1: work and this is personal. And Aaron certainly has that

1325
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 1: work wife relationship with Jane that has become terribly inappropriate

1326
01:21:34,720 --> 01:21:37,120
Speaker 1: and it is gendered, as you pointed out, that he

1327
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 1: is having her mother him. Yeah, he wants her to

1328
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:44,520
Speaker 1: be his mom, he wants her to be his girlfriend,

1329
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:47,639
Speaker 1: he wants her to be his best friend. Like it's

1330
01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:52,080
Speaker 1: it's really icky. Yeah, yeah, And it wouldn't be that

1331
01:21:52,160 --> 01:21:57,600
Speaker 1: way if she was not a woman in this situation,

1332
01:21:57,800 --> 01:22:01,160
Speaker 1: that she was not you know, she wouldn't be that

1333
01:22:01,240 --> 01:22:04,960
Speaker 1: for him if she didn't fit the the idea of

1334
01:22:04,960 --> 01:22:08,160
Speaker 1: what he wanted romantically, and if she wasn't a woman,

1335
01:22:08,680 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 1: you know, if it was a man, he would probably

1336
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:14,920
Speaker 1: be intimidated by him, because he's very clearly intimidated by

1337
01:22:15,000 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 1: Tom in constant and chech Nichols. Yeah, every event around him,

1338
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:23,680
Speaker 1: he's constantly being like, well, I'm smarter than you. You

1339
01:22:23,720 --> 01:22:28,080
Speaker 1: know that, right, And it's likely he was a child

1340
01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:34,080
Speaker 1: and he rightfully gets beat up. Scene. Yeah, I was

1341
01:22:34,160 --> 01:22:36,120
Speaker 1: kind of on the bully's side. I hate to say

1342
01:22:36,160 --> 01:22:40,200
Speaker 1: it in that first, I mean to get into the

1343
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:43,280
Speaker 1: air and stuff. I agree with you, Caitlin that he

1344
01:22:43,439 --> 01:22:48,559
Speaker 1: is definitely the character I like the least of these three,

1345
01:22:49,200 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 1: but all I don't know. But it's like, also, I

1346
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 1: really do hate Tom. I don't know, I have a

1347
01:22:53,120 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 1: special kind of hate for Tom. I hate them for

1348
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 1: different reasons. I guess. I don't know which one's more.

1349
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,400
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, it's like the rankings will become clear

1350
01:23:03,439 --> 01:23:08,759
Speaker 1: with conversation. A tough choice. They're both so little bad,

1351
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:13,920
Speaker 1: Aaron Is. I mean, it's I do feel like it's

1352
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,559
Speaker 1: at least I guess again, the amount of intention because

1353
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 1: it's It does kind of evade me a little because

1354
01:23:21,320 --> 01:23:24,200
Speaker 1: they feel like there are so many characters that you

1355
01:23:24,240 --> 01:23:28,360
Speaker 1: know throughout history of old media that we're supposed to

1356
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:32,160
Speaker 1: be like, oh, the lovable misogynist guy, and like, sure

1357
01:23:32,240 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 1: he's a little insecure, and sure he punches down to

1358
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:37,719
Speaker 1: every woman he comes in contact too, but he's a door.

1359
01:23:37,920 --> 01:23:40,559
Speaker 1: He's insecure. And the eighties are like the peak of

1360
01:23:40,600 --> 01:23:43,840
Speaker 1: that had a sad sack. Nebish is the hero in

1361
01:23:44,080 --> 01:23:48,480
Speaker 1: so many of these movies, and you realize in retrospect

1362
01:23:48,720 --> 01:23:51,960
Speaker 1: they are the the antagonists in all of these movies.

1363
01:23:52,439 --> 01:23:56,439
Speaker 1: They're the cause of every problem. It comes off the worst,

1364
01:23:56,520 --> 01:24:00,519
Speaker 1: and it's it's because it's like constantly air And is

1365
01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:06,000
Speaker 1: kissing his female coworkers without their consent, just like really

1366
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:10,839
Speaker 1: lunging and making a go for it. He feels entitled

1367
01:24:10,840 --> 01:24:13,679
Speaker 1: to their time. He makes comments like like that comment

1368
01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:17,479
Speaker 1: you mentioned Dave to Jennifer that was or Kaylie, I

1369
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 1: forget who said, but like that completely inappropriate, like oh

1370
01:24:20,720 --> 01:24:23,720
Speaker 1: you you must you know you would tell anyone you

1371
01:24:23,800 --> 01:24:27,439
Speaker 1: love them, uh kind of thing. The way he acts

1372
01:24:27,600 --> 01:24:31,240
Speaker 1: when the date rape segment is at when you know

1373
01:24:31,400 --> 01:24:34,479
Speaker 1: he's the worst person in the world if there was

1374
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:39,280
Speaker 1: any doubt he is horrible, and like, I mean, we'll

1375
01:24:39,360 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 1: we'll get into that segment because that's like very very interesting.

1376
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:48,160
Speaker 1: But you know, he has a lot of uh, dislike

1377
01:24:48,280 --> 01:24:52,280
Speaker 1: and just dismissal towards women even when and I think

1378
01:24:52,320 --> 01:24:55,679
Speaker 1: it is kind of like I mean, we've talked about

1379
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:59,200
Speaker 1: this all the time of of how it tends to

1380
01:24:59,240 --> 01:25:03,760
Speaker 1: be at least more narratively interesting and you know, applicable

1381
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:08,160
Speaker 1: to see male characters who male audience members can see

1382
01:25:08,200 --> 01:25:10,640
Speaker 1: themselves in. And I can, I can see, you know,

1383
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 1: watching broadcast news. The casualness of his misogyny and the

1384
01:25:15,479 --> 01:25:20,840
Speaker 1: casualness that he feels entitled to feels not unrealistic. And

1385
01:25:20,880 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 1: it's not like a cartoon villain of a misogynist. It's

1386
01:25:24,880 --> 01:25:29,080
Speaker 1: someone who is just projecting onto people who he doesn't

1387
01:25:29,120 --> 01:25:31,559
Speaker 1: think are more powerful than him, and people who he

1388
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,519
Speaker 1: clearly doesn't think are gonna, you know, bring it up

1389
01:25:34,600 --> 01:25:37,320
Speaker 1: or do anything. And I feel like his character is

1390
01:25:37,400 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 1: so emblematic of that. He's like, what do you mean,

1391
01:25:40,360 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 1: I'm a good guy? Like he's that kind of character,

1392
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:48,080
Speaker 1: But it's written, so I don't know. I like how

1393
01:25:48,160 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 1: his character is written because it does. It feels like

1394
01:25:50,880 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 1: a recognizable person who is saying despicable stuff really regularly.

1395
01:25:57,040 --> 01:25:59,600
Speaker 1: But it's so it makes sense that it's normalized in

1396
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:03,960
Speaker 1: this Yeah, I think it's. Um it's important to note

1397
01:26:04,000 --> 01:26:07,200
Speaker 1: that they cast a comedian in this role. So then

1398
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:12,760
Speaker 1: and if you cast a comedian, most likely you're going

1399
01:26:12,800 --> 01:26:19,000
Speaker 1: to look at that person as sympathetic, especially when that

1400
01:26:19,000 --> 01:26:24,200
Speaker 1: that type of character was considered heroic. Um. So casting

1401
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:29,160
Speaker 1: someone who is used to kind of begging for affection

1402
01:26:29,240 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 1: in the way that all great comedic performers do. Even

1403
01:26:33,080 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 1: if you if you have ever performed out a stage

1404
01:26:35,240 --> 01:26:37,519
Speaker 1: and try to get people to laugh, you know how

1405
01:26:37,600 --> 01:26:40,120
Speaker 1: kind of desperate that is, and how like he doesn't

1406
01:26:40,160 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 1: want to be loved and I know, right, And so

1407
01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:47,599
Speaker 1: Albert Brooks is able to bring that and that is

1408
01:26:48,080 --> 01:26:52,360
Speaker 1: I think why he was only successful to a point

1409
01:26:52,520 --> 01:26:58,280
Speaker 1: playing the lead in movies like this because one, he

1410
01:26:58,439 --> 01:27:01,559
Speaker 1: and his co writer Monica Johnson, we're writing characters that

1411
01:27:01,640 --> 01:27:04,360
Speaker 1: were loathsome and satirical for him most of the time.

1412
01:27:04,920 --> 01:27:07,960
Speaker 1: But also because even when he's trying to be likable,

1413
01:27:08,840 --> 01:27:11,920
Speaker 1: he's kind of annoying. You kind of don't like this

1414
01:27:11,960 --> 01:27:17,000
Speaker 1: person because he just has this um like you said, this,

1415
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:22,240
Speaker 1: this underlying kind of menace and misogyny to his characters,

1416
01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 1: um that is softened in probably his most popular movie,

1417
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 1: like I said, Defending Your Life, where he is the

1418
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 1: romantic lead and he is trying to be a better person,

1419
01:27:31,960 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: and he does get the girl at the end, and

1420
01:27:34,400 --> 01:27:37,439
Speaker 1: he does kind of almost maybe possibly sort of deserve it,

1421
01:27:37,840 --> 01:27:41,439
Speaker 1: but he's still it starts the movie as this self centered,

1422
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:45,200
Speaker 1: narcissistic person um. So I think there was never a

1423
01:27:45,240 --> 01:27:46,880
Speaker 1: point where he was when he was going to be

1424
01:27:47,000 --> 01:27:49,880
Speaker 1: a super duper movie star on the level of Steve

1425
01:27:49,960 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 1: Martin or other other contemporaries of his because he was

1426
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:57,880
Speaker 1: so attracted to these parts that when a comedian had

1427
01:27:57,920 --> 01:28:00,680
Speaker 1: to be unlikable in a in a lead role in

1428
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:03,320
Speaker 1: a movie, he was the one you went to because

1429
01:28:03,360 --> 01:28:06,800
Speaker 1: he could be just likable enough but not afraid to

1430
01:28:06,880 --> 01:28:11,160
Speaker 1: be completely unlikable. And that is again why I love

1431
01:28:11,240 --> 01:28:14,840
Speaker 1: his work so much, is because he projects projects this

1432
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:19,840
Speaker 1: awareness in this vulnerability and also this um menace that

1433
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 1: is recognizable. I think for a lot of people, a

1434
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:26,360
Speaker 1: lot of men who are looking at themselves and saying

1435
01:28:26,360 --> 01:28:29,040
Speaker 1: I'm not so great. You know, there's a realism and

1436
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:32,800
Speaker 1: in an honesty to it that is incredibly rare. Even

1437
01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:36,360
Speaker 1: when you're playing the most loathsome character in a TV show,

1438
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:38,360
Speaker 1: if you're Steve Carrell in the office, you still kind

1439
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:41,800
Speaker 1: of want to be liked. Albert Brooks most of his movies,

1440
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:46,760
Speaker 1: he's like, you don't have to like me. Stink and

1441
01:28:47,000 --> 01:28:50,280
Speaker 1: does does he stink? That scene towards the end of

1442
01:28:50,320 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 1: the movie where Jane is like, I'm going on this

1443
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:58,519
Speaker 1: trip with Tom, this is my last chance to see you.

1444
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:01,479
Speaker 1: Let's have lunch or whatever, and he and they're like

1445
01:29:01,560 --> 01:29:03,800
Speaker 1: kind of saying goodbye, and they're like talking about their

1446
01:29:03,840 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 1: futures and stuff, and then he says something like, oh,

1447
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:09,960
Speaker 1: here's what's here's how it's going to go down, will

1448
01:29:10,320 --> 01:29:13,559
Speaker 1: you know, drift apart a little bit, and then we'll

1449
01:29:13,800 --> 01:29:17,160
Speaker 1: reconnect a few years down the road and my son

1450
01:29:17,320 --> 01:29:21,519
Speaker 1: will be there and he'll say something really mean to you,

1451
01:29:21,800 --> 01:29:24,200
Speaker 1: and I'll have to jump in and be like, it's

1452
01:29:24,200 --> 01:29:28,760
Speaker 1: not nice to say something about lonely fat women like that.

1453
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:33,120
Speaker 1: And it's just really a painful scene. Bad saying that

1454
01:29:33,200 --> 01:29:38,040
Speaker 1: to your best friend. I was like, she still kind

1455
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:41,000
Speaker 1: of forgives him. Yeah, she I feel like there is

1456
01:29:41,120 --> 01:29:44,640
Speaker 1: very much a vibe of like, that's our erin and

1457
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 1: you're like, but why, why why are you friends er

1458
01:29:49,960 --> 01:29:53,280
Speaker 1: this jackass? Yeah, I think she feels that way. I

1459
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:56,360
Speaker 1: don't think the movie is saying that it's okay. I

1460
01:29:56,439 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 1: do think that the movie judges him harshly. And but

1461
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,240
Speaker 1: then when they like, the movie ends on what I

1462
01:30:04,280 --> 01:30:07,000
Speaker 1: think is meant to be this like tender moment of

1463
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:11,720
Speaker 1: them reconnecting after like seven years and they're catching up,

1464
01:30:11,760 --> 01:30:15,160
Speaker 1: and it's like, Jane get away from him, like this

1465
01:30:15,200 --> 01:30:19,160
Speaker 1: guy sucks. You know, you've got your issues too, but

1466
01:30:19,400 --> 01:30:23,120
Speaker 1: you can do better. And I was just I don't know,

1467
01:30:23,160 --> 01:30:25,800
Speaker 1: I was just very disappointed. Yeah, it would have been

1468
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:28,280
Speaker 1: nice to have some Catharsis for her at some point

1469
01:30:28,280 --> 01:30:31,559
Speaker 1: where she could really tell him off, But the movie

1470
01:30:31,600 --> 01:30:33,759
Speaker 1: does not grant her that, or any of the characters

1471
01:30:33,920 --> 01:30:37,120
Speaker 1: that really. I guess the scene in the airport where

1472
01:30:37,280 --> 01:30:42,160
Speaker 1: Jane gives it to tom And and expresses her outrage

1473
01:30:42,240 --> 01:30:46,040
Speaker 1: at his behavior is the only scene where any character

1474
01:30:46,360 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 1: is truly dressed down. Everybody else kind of gets away

1475
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:53,360
Speaker 1: scot free with their with their problems, at least at

1476
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 1: least their actual problems, you know, when when Aaron confronts

1477
01:30:56,720 --> 01:30:58,800
Speaker 1: Jane in that restaurant at the end, he is not

1478
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:03,360
Speaker 1: saying anything true about her. He's not he's not expressing

1479
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:07,720
Speaker 1: any real issue that she has in her personality. He's

1480
01:31:07,760 --> 01:31:10,599
Speaker 1: just being cruel for the sake of being cruel. Yeah,

1481
01:31:10,640 --> 01:31:14,519
Speaker 1: I mean, he just like very much projects. I mean,

1482
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:19,559
Speaker 1: he's just he's the worst. And yet he is not

1483
01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:23,720
Speaker 1: totally wrong about everything that he says, and that is like,

1484
01:31:24,160 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 1: I feel like that kind of dovetails into the Tom

1485
01:31:26,880 --> 01:31:30,960
Speaker 1: discussion a little bit. We're that scene with with him

1486
01:31:31,000 --> 01:31:33,759
Speaker 1: and Jane where Jane is like, I think I'm falling

1487
01:31:33,800 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 1: in love with Tom, and Aaron is just being a

1488
01:31:37,120 --> 01:31:40,439
Speaker 1: total fucking baby about everything. He's like, but you're my

1489
01:31:40,560 --> 01:31:45,559
Speaker 1: mom and my wife. What like, He's like spiraling, having

1490
01:31:45,560 --> 01:31:49,320
Speaker 1: a total meltdown and just like peeing his diaper about it.

1491
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 1: But then he brings up a point that is a

1492
01:31:53,160 --> 01:31:57,519
Speaker 1: pretty good point about how Tom approaches the news and

1493
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:00,760
Speaker 1: how you know, you know, he said as Tom is

1494
01:32:00,880 --> 01:32:05,320
Speaker 1: the devil and which is dramatic, but but also he

1495
01:32:05,400 --> 01:32:08,639
Speaker 1: does bring up a point that Jane doesn't want to hear,

1496
01:32:09,000 --> 01:32:11,320
Speaker 1: which is also kind of I thought, like a pretty

1497
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:14,400
Speaker 1: interesting thing that is like brought into her character of

1498
01:32:14,479 --> 01:32:18,760
Speaker 1: like she knows, she's well aware that Tom doesn't know

1499
01:32:18,800 --> 01:32:21,200
Speaker 1: what he's doing, and she knows that because she's doing

1500
01:32:21,200 --> 01:32:23,160
Speaker 1: it for him a lot of the time, and sometimes

1501
01:32:23,200 --> 01:32:25,840
Speaker 1: Aaron's doing it for him. In the case of that

1502
01:32:25,880 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 1: big story about Libya where uh, you know, Aaron called

1503
01:32:29,439 --> 01:32:32,760
Speaker 1: Jane and gave Tom the information he needed to look good.

1504
01:32:33,040 --> 01:32:35,400
Speaker 1: She knows that because she told Tom off when she

1505
01:32:35,479 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 1: first met him, like why are you whining to me?

1506
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 1: Learn how to do your job? Then like why are

1507
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:45,200
Speaker 1: you telling me this? Like fuck you? But she's still

1508
01:32:45,760 --> 01:32:49,160
Speaker 1: attracted to him, and she's struggling with that, which I

1509
01:32:49,200 --> 01:32:52,559
Speaker 1: guess like if you're a comedian who's head sex with

1510
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:57,479
Speaker 1: a comedian, then you can understand that maybe that I

1511
01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:01,400
Speaker 1: was like that interaction. I was just like I see

1512
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:05,760
Speaker 1: my life in this at times relatable, Like why doesn't

1513
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:09,680
Speaker 1: anyone laugh when I talk? I'm like, that's a you problem? Um.

1514
01:33:09,920 --> 01:33:14,759
Speaker 1: In any case, like Aaron's view of Tom isn't wrong,

1515
01:33:14,840 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 1: and that like Tom does it is kind of the

1516
01:33:17,840 --> 01:33:21,559
Speaker 1: antithesis of what Jane claims to stand for. But she

1517
01:33:21,680 --> 01:33:25,519
Speaker 1: thinks that maybe she could get an area of her

1518
01:33:25,560 --> 01:33:28,000
Speaker 1: life filfelt that she hasn't had fulfilled in a long

1519
01:33:28,040 --> 01:33:30,519
Speaker 1: time through him, and so she's getting to the point

1520
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:32,799
Speaker 1: where she's like, well, maybe I can overlook the ethics

1521
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:35,439
Speaker 1: of it, and Aaron does bring her back to earth,

1522
01:33:35,479 --> 01:33:38,360
Speaker 1: and it's like, are you sure you can see overlook

1523
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:41,559
Speaker 1: the ethics of it? And it's just so like everyone

1524
01:33:41,640 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 1: in this situation sucks and is making a huge compromise

1525
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:49,120
Speaker 1: of their morals And I hate that it's Aaron that

1526
01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:51,280
Speaker 1: makes a good point, but I do think he he

1527
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:54,800
Speaker 1: makes a really good point there, Like he's simply not

1528
01:33:54,920 --> 01:33:58,080
Speaker 1: wrong in that case. I almost wish that it had

1529
01:33:58,120 --> 01:34:02,000
Speaker 1: been her to put the pieces of the puzzle together

1530
01:34:02,160 --> 01:34:06,000
Speaker 1: and figure it out on her own. That Tom had

1531
01:34:06,040 --> 01:34:09,320
Speaker 1: like brought only one camera and that he must have

1532
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 1: staged it, and like, yeah, I don't. I feel like

1533
01:34:13,479 --> 01:34:15,719
Speaker 1: the fact that it's Aaron doing it out of spite

1534
01:34:16,439 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 1: and rage and selfishness is it takes some of the

1535
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:25,160
Speaker 1: thrill of victory away. But I wonder if you know

1536
01:34:25,240 --> 01:34:27,920
Speaker 1: that too. Is The point is is you know, Jane

1537
01:34:28,040 --> 01:34:34,640
Speaker 1: is so lost in her fantasy of who Tom is

1538
01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:37,360
Speaker 1: or could be that she can't see so it has

1539
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:39,559
Speaker 1: to be someone else. But it has to be someone

1540
01:34:39,600 --> 01:34:43,679
Speaker 1: acting in self interest as opposed to someone who really cares,

1541
01:34:44,200 --> 01:34:47,000
Speaker 1: because none of them really care. All of them are

1542
01:34:47,040 --> 01:34:49,840
Speaker 1: self interested at the end of the day, none of

1543
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:53,360
Speaker 1: them are truly altruistic in their behavior at all. There

1544
01:34:53,439 --> 01:34:58,400
Speaker 1: is no truly good person in this movie. Everyone just

1545
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:05,960
Speaker 1: once love or approval or acclaim or esteem. Nobody is

1546
01:35:06,280 --> 01:35:09,400
Speaker 1: thinking about how can I help someone else? I guess

1547
01:35:09,479 --> 01:35:13,200
Speaker 1: on some level there is some altruism from Jane in

1548
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:17,880
Speaker 1: regards to her her coworkers a little bit, but not really.

1549
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:21,960
Speaker 1: Or Aaron choosing to leave instead of sticking around so

1550
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:25,320
Speaker 1: somebody could keep their job. Maybe, but not really. It's

1551
01:35:25,360 --> 01:35:30,160
Speaker 1: still about yourself and self interest. Yeah, not enough not

1552
01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:32,599
Speaker 1: to take the promotion. She's very nice to the people

1553
01:35:32,600 --> 01:35:34,839
Speaker 1: who are laid off, but she still takes the promotion.

1554
01:35:36,080 --> 01:35:38,439
Speaker 1: You know, in the same way that like Jack Nicholson,

1555
01:35:38,439 --> 01:35:41,040
Speaker 1: when everyone's laid off, he's the clearest valid where they're

1556
01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, they're like, oh, you want to shave a

1557
01:35:43,160 --> 01:35:46,920
Speaker 1: million off of your salary, and he gets like, he's

1558
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:51,320
Speaker 1: like yeah. He starts histing and spitting, and then Paul

1559
01:35:51,479 --> 01:35:53,880
Speaker 1: is like, I'm so sorry, that was the worst joke

1560
01:35:53,960 --> 01:35:56,280
Speaker 1: I've ever made. What a silly joke I made. I

1561
01:35:56,320 --> 01:35:58,879
Speaker 1: would never that is why I was not being serious.

1562
01:35:58,920 --> 01:36:02,160
Speaker 1: It was very much a joke. And then Jack Nicholoson

1563
01:36:02,280 --> 01:36:06,200
Speaker 1: goes but then it's like, but but Tom and Jane

1564
01:36:06,240 --> 01:36:09,200
Speaker 1: are very involved in this too, where they you know,

1565
01:36:09,280 --> 01:36:11,120
Speaker 1: they're they're nice to the people who were laid off,

1566
01:36:11,120 --> 01:36:12,760
Speaker 1: but they take their promotion and they're going to go

1567
01:36:12,800 --> 01:36:15,920
Speaker 1: on vacation about it. Like I got to clear my head.

1568
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:20,080
Speaker 1: Oh boy, that's that was hard for me. Okay, I

1569
01:36:20,160 --> 01:36:22,880
Speaker 1: have a job so hard. I better go to wherever

1570
01:36:22,920 --> 01:36:25,479
Speaker 1: they're going to go about it. Like you know, if

1571
01:36:25,920 --> 01:36:27,760
Speaker 1: if you're if you put yourself in the in the

1572
01:36:27,800 --> 01:36:31,000
Speaker 1: shoes of you know, Joe Cusack who just got laid off,

1573
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,000
Speaker 1: you'd be like, fuck you, you're going on vacation for what.

1574
01:36:34,800 --> 01:36:38,360
Speaker 1: And I do like that exchange between um, Joe Cusack

1575
01:36:38,439 --> 01:36:42,120
Speaker 1: and and Jane where she's like, except for socially, you're

1576
01:36:42,200 --> 01:36:46,519
Speaker 1: my role model, which I think passes the Bechdel test.

1577
01:36:46,840 --> 01:36:51,519
Speaker 1: I think that's as close as we get. Wow, that's

1578
01:36:51,600 --> 01:36:54,720
Speaker 1: that's something right, that's something something. It's kind of a

1579
01:36:54,720 --> 01:36:57,960
Speaker 1: funny path. I like it, But I did want to

1580
01:36:58,000 --> 01:37:00,880
Speaker 1: talk about the the actual story read that I think

1581
01:37:01,320 --> 01:37:04,320
Speaker 1: is like, you know, I feel like there's this little

1582
01:37:04,360 --> 01:37:08,519
Speaker 1: ambiguity of like, Okay, so Tom is self aware that

1583
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:10,720
Speaker 1: he doesn't know what his job is, but how far

1584
01:37:10,840 --> 01:37:12,280
Speaker 1: is he willing to go? Is he just going to

1585
01:37:12,400 --> 01:37:16,320
Speaker 1: fail upwards passively or is he going to actively fail upwards?

1586
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:21,200
Speaker 1: And the moment where he the story he chooses is

1587
01:37:21,439 --> 01:37:25,240
Speaker 1: particularly It's again, it's just like this like such an

1588
01:37:25,240 --> 01:37:28,160
Speaker 1: ambiguous thing, or it was for me when I like

1589
01:37:28,280 --> 01:37:31,559
Speaker 1: put my seven goggles on, because he does a story

1590
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:36,480
Speaker 1: on date rape, which in n was barely a term

1591
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:39,599
Speaker 1: that existed. It was not a popular discussion and at

1592
01:37:39,640 --> 01:37:42,880
Speaker 1: that time would have been a risky broadcast. And I

1593
01:37:42,880 --> 01:37:45,280
Speaker 1: feel like that is reflected in the way that it's received,

1594
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:49,120
Speaker 1: I mean, especially by Erin's like this isn't news. But

1595
01:37:48,640 --> 01:37:52,680
Speaker 1: but I don't think that that is like as despicable

1596
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:54,960
Speaker 1: as a reaction as it was. I don't think it

1597
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:57,880
Speaker 1: would have been an uncommon one um at the time.

1598
01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:00,719
Speaker 1: If this isn't the salt to nuclear dis armament talks,

1599
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:04,040
Speaker 1: who cares? Right? That was? That's the Aaron Altman attitude

1600
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:06,439
Speaker 1: about the news, and to a certain extent, Jaane's attitude

1601
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:08,639
Speaker 1: about the news, which is it has to be about

1602
01:38:08,680 --> 01:38:12,200
Speaker 1: powerful men and countries and money changing hands and that

1603
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:16,200
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. But in this I mean, I thought

1604
01:38:16,240 --> 01:38:18,400
Speaker 1: it was really well done the way the way that

1605
01:38:18,439 --> 01:38:22,719
Speaker 1: scene was like shot, especially where we know as an

1606
01:38:22,760 --> 01:38:28,080
Speaker 1: audience by the end that Tom spotlighted this story for

1607
01:38:28,439 --> 01:38:32,679
Speaker 1: completely selfish reasons. He does not actually care about women

1608
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:35,960
Speaker 1: who are, you know, experiencing date rape. He does not

1609
01:38:36,080 --> 01:38:39,960
Speaker 1: actually care about their stories. This is a side note,

1610
01:38:40,000 --> 01:38:42,719
Speaker 1: but the woman who appears on screen and that news

1611
01:38:42,760 --> 01:38:47,440
Speaker 1: item is accredited as date rape woman, so that's unfortunate

1612
01:38:48,280 --> 01:38:51,680
Speaker 1: and in any case, uh like he's doing it for

1613
01:38:51,680 --> 01:38:56,320
Speaker 1: selfish reasons, but he is championing a story that would

1614
01:38:56,360 --> 01:38:59,640
Speaker 1: probably not have been told on the news otherwise, so

1615
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:03,600
Speaker 1: that's difficult. And then also watching the way that the

1616
01:39:03,680 --> 01:39:06,840
Speaker 1: women in the room react to that story as they're

1617
01:39:06,880 --> 01:39:10,200
Speaker 1: watching it was also really interesting where I think that

1618
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:14,800
Speaker 1: was one of Joan Cusacks more plot relevant moments where

1619
01:39:15,240 --> 01:39:18,880
Speaker 1: she tells um she tells Jane like, oh, that happened

1620
01:39:18,880 --> 01:39:21,320
Speaker 1: to someone I knew, And there's other women in the

1621
01:39:21,400 --> 01:39:23,760
Speaker 1: room who were like reacting in a way of like, oh,

1622
01:39:23,800 --> 01:39:28,080
Speaker 1: I recognize what she's talking about. And there is this clear, Like,

1623
01:39:29,000 --> 01:39:33,120
Speaker 1: you know, we can't know because it's fiction, right, But

1624
01:39:33,200 --> 01:39:36,800
Speaker 1: like I would guess that a story like this, even

1625
01:39:36,840 --> 01:39:40,679
Speaker 1: though it was done for the most despicable, selfish, manipulative reasons,

1626
01:39:40,680 --> 01:39:43,080
Speaker 1: which is why Tom did it, had probably a net

1627
01:39:43,120 --> 01:39:45,160
Speaker 1: good impact because it had the potential to start a

1628
01:39:45,200 --> 01:39:47,800
Speaker 1: conversation no one else was willing to have, to the

1629
01:39:47,840 --> 01:39:51,200
Speaker 1: point where it even got to Jane, who Jane is like, well,

1630
01:39:51,400 --> 01:39:54,799
Speaker 1: you know, fuck you for cutting to yourself, like literally

1631
01:39:54,800 --> 01:39:58,599
Speaker 1: a Brian Williams move. But I was moved by the story,

1632
01:39:58,680 --> 01:40:01,280
Speaker 1: which is a lot from Jane, who does prioritize these

1633
01:40:01,280 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: stories about war and politically influential men, and for for

1634
01:40:06,160 --> 01:40:09,000
Speaker 1: her to kind of hand it to any reporter about

1635
01:40:09,040 --> 01:40:11,960
Speaker 1: a story that is about something that commonly happens to women,

1636
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:14,120
Speaker 1: those don't seem to be the kind of stories that

1637
01:40:14,160 --> 01:40:17,240
Speaker 1: she champions, And so I feel like that makes that

1638
01:40:17,360 --> 01:40:20,240
Speaker 1: almost I don't know, maybe I'm like reading too far

1639
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:22,639
Speaker 1: into it, but I feel like that that almost from

1640
01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:26,560
Speaker 1: her perspective, makes the betrayal of him doing it disingenuously

1641
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:30,280
Speaker 1: even worse of Like, you know, he got her to

1642
01:40:30,320 --> 01:40:34,000
Speaker 1: consider something as news that she hadn't previously considered as

1643
01:40:34,040 --> 01:40:36,960
Speaker 1: news and then it turned out to be for this

1644
01:40:37,240 --> 01:40:41,200
Speaker 1: really selfish reason and so not only is it unethical,

1645
01:40:41,320 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 1: it was like he locked he you know, he was

1646
01:40:44,200 --> 01:40:47,880
Speaker 1: able to get through her bullshit meter, which she can.

1647
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:50,360
Speaker 1: You know, it seems like she can handle almost any

1648
01:40:50,439 --> 01:40:53,080
Speaker 1: level of bullshit, but he it was. It just is

1649
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 1: like a betrayal on so many levels. There's another kind

1650
01:40:58,080 --> 01:41:02,800
Speaker 1: of side note love to this where when this movie

1651
01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:07,280
Speaker 1: was being filmed, William Hurt who plays Tom and again

1652
01:41:07,320 --> 01:41:11,599
Speaker 1: another trigger warning here for sexual assault, but William Hurt

1653
01:41:12,000 --> 01:41:15,400
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted his girlfriend at the time. Oh my god,

1654
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:18,479
Speaker 1: Marley Matlin, Wow, I did not know that. Yeah, I

1655
01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:22,519
Speaker 1: didn't either. So you have this actor playing this character

1656
01:41:22,680 --> 01:41:27,439
Speaker 1: who's like championing this story for very selfish reasons, and

1657
01:41:27,800 --> 01:41:32,160
Speaker 1: an actor who is committing these atrocities that his character

1658
01:41:32,240 --> 01:41:35,200
Speaker 1: is speaking out against, and the whole thing is just

1659
01:41:35,280 --> 01:41:39,040
Speaker 1: a huge mind fuck. I mean, yeah, I think that

1660
01:41:39,040 --> 01:41:45,560
Speaker 1: that's the movie makes a point about our society and

1661
01:41:45,600 --> 01:41:48,880
Speaker 1: how we function with each other and the reasons why

1662
01:41:48,960 --> 01:41:54,200
Speaker 1: things happen and why people what motivates people, and that

1663
01:41:54,320 --> 01:41:59,479
Speaker 1: particular story is really telling because you know, you can

1664
01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:01,280
Speaker 1: look at this movie and say, oh, this you know,

1665
01:42:01,320 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 1: this was a movie that projected a lot of good

1666
01:42:05,080 --> 01:42:08,519
Speaker 1: things about a gender equality and all of all that

1667
01:42:08,880 --> 01:42:11,719
Speaker 1: into the world. But then, you know, you hear about

1668
01:42:11,760 --> 01:42:13,719
Speaker 1: something like that and you say, oh, well, this person,

1669
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:17,880
Speaker 1: this real human being who's in this movie was in

1670
01:42:17,920 --> 01:42:20,040
Speaker 1: this movie that you know, a lot of people hold

1671
01:42:20,120 --> 01:42:24,320
Speaker 1: up as as as a step forward for feminism in

1672
01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:27,639
Speaker 1: in entertainment. He did it for selfish reasons, the same

1673
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:29,759
Speaker 1: for the same reason. You know, the character he plays

1674
01:42:29,760 --> 01:42:35,320
Speaker 1: in the movie puts this story onto the news, and that, unfortunately,

1675
01:42:35,479 --> 01:42:40,120
Speaker 1: is why anything happens in a capitalist society. That is

1676
01:42:40,160 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 1: the that is the form and function of capitalism when

1677
01:42:43,160 --> 01:42:47,759
Speaker 1: it is going well, which is people will do good

1678
01:42:47,800 --> 01:42:51,920
Speaker 1: things to satisfy themselves in their own egos, and that

1679
01:42:52,120 --> 01:42:54,760
Speaker 1: is how it works. And that's good. You know, good

1680
01:42:54,800 --> 01:42:58,400
Speaker 1: things will happen if people have you know, a financial

1681
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:03,560
Speaker 1: or personal stake in it. But that's ultimately not a

1682
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:08,040
Speaker 1: positive for the world. It is not good for people

1683
01:43:08,120 --> 01:43:11,000
Speaker 1: to claim to be doing the right thing but for

1684
01:43:11,080 --> 01:43:14,400
Speaker 1: it to really be you know, just for their own benefit,

1685
01:43:15,000 --> 01:43:19,160
Speaker 1: and hypocrisy grows and grows and grows because that is

1686
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:22,799
Speaker 1: how we think the system should work, which is giving

1687
01:43:22,920 --> 01:43:26,599
Speaker 1: people a praise for doing things in their own self

1688
01:43:26,640 --> 01:43:30,040
Speaker 1: interest as opposed to doing things collectively, or doing things

1689
01:43:30,080 --> 01:43:35,880
Speaker 1: altruistically or for a good reason that is centered on

1690
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:43,400
Speaker 1: other people as opposed to ego. It really breaks your brain. Yeah,

1691
01:43:44,280 --> 01:43:50,000
Speaker 1: does anyone have any other things they want to talk about? Shockingly,

1692
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:53,240
Speaker 1: little black or brown faces in the movie. Oh, this

1693
01:43:53,320 --> 01:43:56,120
Speaker 1: is a very very very white movie about a very

1694
01:43:56,120 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 1: white industry. Oh and that, Yeah, that's there is one

1695
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 1: black reporter, George, who, similar to Joan Cusack's character, could

1696
01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:08,080
Speaker 1: be written out of the movie and you wouldn't notice

1697
01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:12,519
Speaker 1: because he is in it so infrequently, and his character

1698
01:44:13,479 --> 01:44:19,560
Speaker 1: is extremely insignificant to the larger narrative, which is extremely

1699
01:44:19,880 --> 01:44:25,439
Speaker 1: unfortunate yet not surprising for a movie. Tokenism was certainly

1700
01:44:25,600 --> 01:44:30,360
Speaker 1: very popular back then and still is to a certain extent. Yeah. Yeah,

1701
01:44:30,360 --> 01:44:32,960
Speaker 1: and it's like of of of the many I mean,

1702
01:44:33,040 --> 01:44:36,360
Speaker 1: it's of the many things that James Brooks seems to

1703
01:44:36,600 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 1: want to point out, like, Hey, isn't this exclusion or like,

1704
01:44:41,479 --> 01:44:46,360
Speaker 1: you know, change funked up in this industry? Whiteness never

1705
01:44:46,439 --> 01:44:50,320
Speaker 1: comes into the equation. He that's like he interrogates the

1706
01:44:50,320 --> 01:44:55,000
Speaker 1: gender dynamics of this workplace, constantly, but he never, never,

1707
01:44:55,040 --> 01:45:00,400
Speaker 1: never interrogates the race dynamics of the workplace. Yeah. I

1708
01:45:00,400 --> 01:45:03,720
Speaker 1: think there was a point in American culture and we

1709
01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:07,160
Speaker 1: only recently got past it where there was this idea

1710
01:45:07,200 --> 01:45:10,120
Speaker 1: of well, racism was solved in the sixties. We solved

1711
01:45:10,120 --> 01:45:13,439
Speaker 1: it and everything's fine, and there's a black person in

1712
01:45:13,479 --> 01:45:16,840
Speaker 1: the newsroom, and isn't that cute boy? He's got a

1713
01:45:16,920 --> 01:45:19,639
Speaker 1: job and everything and died a little tie and su wow,

1714
01:45:19,680 --> 01:45:24,280
Speaker 1: amazing and does he do what's his life? Like? It

1715
01:45:24,280 --> 01:45:27,400
Speaker 1: doesn't matter? Um, yeah, it is not about him, So

1716
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:32,280
Speaker 1: move along, sir. Uh. That that is a very common problem,

1717
01:45:32,439 --> 01:45:35,680
Speaker 1: and it is why we go from you know, the

1718
01:45:36,040 --> 01:45:40,720
Speaker 1: gains of civil rights to seemingly regressing so significantly to

1719
01:45:40,800 --> 01:45:43,760
Speaker 1: this point is because we were told the fiction that

1720
01:45:43,800 --> 01:45:48,720
Speaker 1: it was solved through things like film and television and

1721
01:45:49,000 --> 01:45:52,280
Speaker 1: literature the news like yeah, look at this, look at

1722
01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:55,040
Speaker 1: we have diversity. The United Colors have been it on.

1723
01:45:55,160 --> 01:46:00,280
Speaker 1: It's real. Everybody's equal. And I think token is had

1724
01:46:00,320 --> 01:46:04,240
Speaker 1: the exact opposite result of what they wanted it to have,

1725
01:46:04,960 --> 01:46:09,639
Speaker 1: which is that it it made people, um unaware of

1726
01:46:10,120 --> 01:46:14,040
Speaker 1: the prejudice that exists. That it made people think that

1727
01:46:14,120 --> 01:46:18,080
Speaker 1: things were fine. It created a fiction, and the actual

1728
01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:23,680
Speaker 1: fiction perpetuated that that deception for decades until now when

1729
01:46:23,720 --> 01:46:25,639
Speaker 1: it's all starting to boil over and people are finally

1730
01:46:25,680 --> 01:46:28,240
Speaker 1: talking about it again and saying, it's not enough for

1731
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:30,320
Speaker 1: there to be a black judge in a movie. It's

1732
01:46:30,360 --> 01:46:33,400
Speaker 1: not enough for the cops to be black. It's not

1733
01:46:33,680 --> 01:46:38,439
Speaker 1: enough for there to be you know, one Latino actor, um,

1734
01:46:38,640 --> 01:46:41,439
Speaker 1: and they happen to be playing a criminal and like, well,

1735
01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:44,080
Speaker 1: no diversity. Look, we have this whole gang of of

1736
01:46:44,080 --> 01:46:47,040
Speaker 1: of criminals and they're they're diverse, Like that is not

1737
01:46:47,240 --> 01:46:51,120
Speaker 1: how it works. And it took forever for people to

1738
01:46:51,200 --> 01:46:55,000
Speaker 1: see that that is just as harmful as having nothing

1739
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:57,639
Speaker 1: but white faces in a movie, if not more harmful.

1740
01:46:57,800 --> 01:47:01,080
Speaker 1: I think it might be more harmful because it perpetuates

1741
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:05,120
Speaker 1: the fiction. The lie. Definitely. James Brooks, I feel like

1742
01:47:05,120 --> 01:47:08,960
Speaker 1: it's just simply ill equipped to like he's he's he's

1743
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:14,080
Speaker 1: accomplished a lot, but commentary on race in any meaningful way.

1744
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:17,880
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem to be anything He's ever even really attempted,

1745
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:21,360
Speaker 1: and when he does, it seems like it is never gone.

1746
01:47:21,520 --> 01:47:25,240
Speaker 1: Did you see spanglish? Oh wait, I forgot Spanglish did

1747
01:47:25,640 --> 01:47:31,120
Speaker 1: solve racism? Am I right? Correct? Um almost ended his career.

1748
01:47:31,640 --> 01:47:34,880
Speaker 1: It was so bad. I saw Spanglish I think in

1749
01:47:35,000 --> 01:47:40,519
Speaker 1: elementary school, and I thankfully don't remember a single minute

1750
01:47:40,560 --> 01:47:44,519
Speaker 1: of it. I've never seen it. You're fine to say

1751
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:49,760
Speaker 1: he did he direct that? Yes, that was he was

1752
01:47:49,840 --> 01:47:52,720
Speaker 1: full on tour still at that point, you know, as

1753
01:47:52,760 --> 01:47:56,080
Speaker 1: good as it gains has just recently come out Banglish. Yeah,

1754
01:47:56,439 --> 01:48:00,679
Speaker 1: I think it was based on his actual housekeeper. No, wait,

1755
01:48:00,720 --> 01:48:03,280
Speaker 1: this is all don't quote me on that. Looking up

1756
01:48:03,360 --> 01:48:09,040
Speaker 1: on literary and academic resource Wikipedia if you want to

1757
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:12,639
Speaker 1: be sure, but I believe that he said something about

1758
01:48:12,760 --> 01:48:17,800
Speaker 1: how it was inspired by his own life. Wait, this

1759
01:48:17,920 --> 01:48:23,479
Speaker 1: is boom, holy sh it. Okay, this is news to me,

1760
01:48:23,680 --> 01:48:28,160
Speaker 1: and I'm upset. This is broadcast news, this is brought.

1761
01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:33,400
Speaker 1: Yet I feel a deep sympathy for James L. Brooks.

1762
01:48:33,439 --> 01:48:38,640
Speaker 1: Just kidding. Yeah, well, fuck, folks, just take this as

1763
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:42,080
Speaker 1: a lesson if you are if you think you are

1764
01:48:42,160 --> 01:48:47,360
Speaker 1: the hero of your own story, you're not okay. And

1765
01:48:47,439 --> 01:48:50,240
Speaker 1: that is what I think movies and TV shows and

1766
01:48:50,640 --> 01:48:54,600
Speaker 1: literature have done for men of all races, is to

1767
01:48:54,800 --> 01:48:58,080
Speaker 1: say you are the hero of your story and everyone

1768
01:48:58,120 --> 01:49:02,320
Speaker 1: wants to hear your story. Isn't that great? No? Now,

1769
01:49:02,360 --> 01:49:05,320
Speaker 1: Albert Brooks was right. He is the villain of his

1770
01:49:05,360 --> 01:49:08,439
Speaker 1: own story. I am the villain of my own story,

1771
01:49:08,560 --> 01:49:10,720
Speaker 1: and all I can do every day when I wake

1772
01:49:10,840 --> 01:49:15,519
Speaker 1: up is to be slightly less bad. I don't think

1773
01:49:15,560 --> 01:49:19,480
Speaker 1: I'm horrible, but I think that I make tons of mistakes.

1774
01:49:20,200 --> 01:49:24,000
Speaker 1: And uh, this movie is it has its heart in

1775
01:49:24,000 --> 01:49:30,160
Speaker 1: the right place ultimately, but it is very unsuccessful at

1776
01:49:30,160 --> 01:49:33,280
Speaker 1: a myriad of things, and I think we pointed most

1777
01:49:33,320 --> 01:49:38,280
Speaker 1: of them out. I'm sure we missed some, but you

1778
01:49:38,320 --> 01:49:41,000
Speaker 1: could always be better, folks. That is. That is the

1779
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:45,120
Speaker 1: one thing I hope everybody takes from from life is like, man,

1780
01:49:45,200 --> 01:49:47,600
Speaker 1: we're messing up all the time. We can try to

1781
01:49:47,600 --> 01:49:51,919
Speaker 1: be a little bit better tomorrow. Maybe you know where

1782
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:55,240
Speaker 1: where a work in progress all of us, and some

1783
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:59,280
Speaker 1: of us are progressing at a different rate than others,

1784
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:03,080
Speaker 1: or backwards or going the other way. We're simply refusing it.

1785
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:09,000
Speaker 1: But we said enough about this movie, haven't we? I

1786
01:50:09,040 --> 01:50:12,479
Speaker 1: think so. I think it does pass the Bechdel test.

1787
01:50:12,840 --> 01:50:16,720
Speaker 1: In the like again, Blair is like, hey, Jane, can

1788
01:50:16,760 --> 01:50:21,400
Speaker 1: I tell you something? Jane? Yeah, Blair, except for socially,

1789
01:50:21,720 --> 01:50:25,280
Speaker 1: you're my role model. It also, I does think passes

1790
01:50:25,360 --> 01:50:31,960
Speaker 1: while they're watching the broadcast of the date rape story

1791
01:50:32,200 --> 01:50:36,360
Speaker 1: where Blair says that happened to my cousin Donna and

1792
01:50:36,479 --> 01:50:43,200
Speaker 1: Jane says really. So those are two extremely bleak passes,

1793
01:50:43,360 --> 01:50:47,960
Speaker 1: potentially their technical passes that again are not I think

1794
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:52,160
Speaker 1: they are like impactful towards this story, but they're they're

1795
01:50:52,200 --> 01:50:56,360
Speaker 1: not particularly uplifting or long. I would say that this

1796
01:50:56,400 --> 01:51:01,040
Speaker 1: does technically pass, but not well, can I disagree it passes? Okay,

1797
01:51:01,080 --> 01:51:03,840
Speaker 1: So two reasons why I think it does not pass.

1798
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:08,439
Speaker 1: Number One, in that scene in question, where there is

1799
01:51:08,479 --> 01:51:12,559
Speaker 1: the video package about date rape, they are talking not

1800
01:51:13,000 --> 01:51:17,200
Speaker 1: just about the thing that has happened to junqu sex

1801
01:51:17,439 --> 01:51:21,720
Speaker 1: character's friend, they're also talking about the package itself that

1802
01:51:21,960 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 1: is produced in Stars Tom. So Tom is still kind

1803
01:51:25,560 --> 01:51:29,920
Speaker 1: of centered in this conversation. They're not able to separate

1804
01:51:30,400 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 1: the contents of the package from the fact that it

1805
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:36,559
Speaker 1: is made by Tom, so they never really have a

1806
01:51:36,600 --> 01:51:40,240
Speaker 1: true conversation about that issue. It is in reference to

1807
01:51:40,479 --> 01:51:46,479
Speaker 1: this thing by a man exactly. And then when um,

1808
01:51:46,479 --> 01:51:49,439
Speaker 1: she's talking about how Jane is her role model except

1809
01:51:49,439 --> 01:51:55,120
Speaker 1: for socially you could interpret socially to mean romance of

1810
01:51:55,200 --> 01:52:00,400
Speaker 1: a heterosexualat and so I just feel like it so

1811
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:04,280
Speaker 1: marginal and so fleeting that it would be unfair to

1812
01:52:04,400 --> 01:52:09,320
Speaker 1: the test itself to pass this movie. This happens all

1813
01:52:09,360 --> 01:52:13,960
Speaker 1: the time where we'll come upon conversations in which a

1814
01:52:14,000 --> 01:52:18,679
Speaker 1: man is not explicitly mentioned or talked about, but it's

1815
01:52:18,760 --> 01:52:23,640
Speaker 1: like implicit or the context or the subtext is still

1816
01:52:23,680 --> 01:52:34,679
Speaker 1: about men do to quote a great to quote Homer Simpson,

1817
01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:40,320
Speaker 1: a James L. Brooks creation, perhaps dough. I'll give it

1818
01:52:40,360 --> 01:52:43,799
Speaker 1: a light pass, but also ultimately it's a flawed metric

1819
01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:48,639
Speaker 1: that we barely with all due respect to Alice, Yes, yeah,

1820
01:52:48,960 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 1: but but the nipple scale, though, is an amazing metric.

1821
01:52:53,680 --> 01:52:57,599
Speaker 1: That's what I call em. Actually is awesome, and that's

1822
01:52:57,600 --> 01:53:03,360
Speaker 1: what I call a metric. Um So the nipple scale

1823
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:07,680
Speaker 1: is our scale of zero to five nipples based on

1824
01:53:07,960 --> 01:53:14,439
Speaker 1: an examination of intersectional feminism as it applies to the movie,

1825
01:53:14,680 --> 01:53:17,479
Speaker 1: or how the movie fairs looking at it through that

1826
01:53:17,640 --> 01:53:22,080
Speaker 1: particular lens. As we've discussed, this is a challenging movie.

1827
01:53:22,120 --> 01:53:26,000
Speaker 1: This is a complex movie. This is a very interesting

1828
01:53:26,240 --> 01:53:31,680
Speaker 1: movie that tackles a lot of things, that explores characters

1829
01:53:31,760 --> 01:53:35,040
Speaker 1: and develops them in such a way that they are

1830
01:53:35,120 --> 01:53:40,120
Speaker 1: far more just like complex and interesting than your average

1831
01:53:40,960 --> 01:53:48,360
Speaker 1: romantic comedy dramay narrative. And like Jane, especially the way

1832
01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:52,960
Speaker 1: that she's depicted, the way in which the toxicity that

1833
01:53:53,080 --> 01:53:56,560
Speaker 1: the men are displaying, the way that all these characters

1834
01:53:56,600 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 1: in these situations are being commented on. I mean, there's

1835
01:54:00,439 --> 01:54:06,640
Speaker 1: a lot happening. Um how effective it is. You know,

1836
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:10,240
Speaker 1: it was the eighties, so certain things get overlooked, but

1837
01:54:10,320 --> 01:54:13,599
Speaker 1: other things, like the commentary is very clear and present

1838
01:54:13,720 --> 01:54:19,920
Speaker 1: and interesting. And I'm just stalling because I have no alright,

1839
01:54:20,200 --> 01:54:26,439
Speaker 1: is there a number? How many nipples? I give it? Yeah?

1840
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:28,880
Speaker 1: Maybe it's just sort of like a split down the middle,

1841
01:54:29,080 --> 01:54:36,400
Speaker 1: So maybe a two point five nipples situation. I wish

1842
01:54:36,800 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't even know what I wish

1843
01:54:38,400 --> 01:54:41,400
Speaker 1: for this movie or for movies like it. I wish

1844
01:54:41,400 --> 01:54:43,440
Speaker 1: we could all kick William Hurt in the face. How

1845
01:54:43,480 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 1: about that. I want to kick him, give him a

1846
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:49,680
Speaker 1: big old wedge. I want to thank you for that

1847
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:52,120
Speaker 1: context of him too, because I did not know that,

1848
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:55,880
Speaker 1: and that is, yeah, very upsetting. I came upon that

1849
01:54:55,920 --> 01:55:00,760
Speaker 1: in my research a link to there's an article pulls

1850
01:55:00,960 --> 01:55:06,400
Speaker 1: quotes from Marley Matlin's memoir Shout Out Marley Matlin Who Rocks,

1851
01:55:07,160 --> 01:55:11,920
Speaker 1: in which she details the nature of her relationship with

1852
01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:16,320
Speaker 1: William Hurt, which sounds like it was extremely emotionally, physically

1853
01:55:16,320 --> 01:55:22,200
Speaker 1: and sexually abusive. So fuck William Hurt, his character, the

1854
01:55:22,320 --> 01:55:27,800
Speaker 1: character of Aaron. Everyone just needs to go to therapy. Yeah,

1855
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:29,440
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna give it to you and a

1856
01:55:29,440 --> 01:55:31,160
Speaker 1: half as well. I feel like this is like a

1857
01:55:31,240 --> 01:55:35,640
Speaker 1: really really I think the movie is really great, and

1858
01:55:35,680 --> 01:55:39,240
Speaker 1: I like every time I watch it, I get something

1859
01:55:39,320 --> 01:55:42,400
Speaker 1: new out of it that I didn't get before. I

1860
01:55:42,440 --> 01:55:47,000
Speaker 1: think in terms of commentary on women, it's pretty limited

1861
01:55:47,200 --> 01:55:49,720
Speaker 1: just based on the setting that we're being put in.

1862
01:55:49,800 --> 01:55:52,640
Speaker 1: We're really only getting to know a single woman who

1863
01:55:52,800 --> 01:55:57,520
Speaker 1: is very complex but also very ethically complex. And you know,

1864
01:55:57,600 --> 01:56:00,880
Speaker 1: I'm not like saying that every email character needs to

1865
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 1: be a role model. That's an unnecessary thing that's pushed

1866
01:56:04,240 --> 01:56:06,800
Speaker 1: on a character that's marginalized in any way of all

1867
01:56:06,800 --> 01:56:08,360
Speaker 1: of a sudden, they have to be a role model

1868
01:56:08,400 --> 01:56:11,880
Speaker 1: for fucking everybody. That's not true. But Jane is ultimately

1869
01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:14,360
Speaker 1: a girl boss who's in it for herself, like I

1870
01:56:14,400 --> 01:56:16,040
Speaker 1: don't think we're getting a ton of I think that

1871
01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:20,680
Speaker 1: we do get some really valuable insight into the ways

1872
01:56:20,760 --> 01:56:24,120
Speaker 1: that she has to suppress herself and she has to

1873
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:27,520
Speaker 1: suppress her own emotions. She's under a lot of pressure.

1874
01:56:27,560 --> 01:56:30,280
Speaker 1: There is a lot of pressure for her specifically to succeed.

1875
01:56:30,320 --> 01:56:33,760
Speaker 1: If she fails, it indicates something larger to this industry

1876
01:56:33,800 --> 01:56:36,800
Speaker 1: than an individual failure. Like I think that that all

1877
01:56:36,840 --> 01:56:39,880
Speaker 1: comes across and the fact that like you, like you

1878
01:56:40,160 --> 01:56:45,000
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, Davi, the men around her are vampires who um.

1879
01:56:45,560 --> 01:56:47,640
Speaker 1: I think it is an interesting look at a character

1880
01:56:47,760 --> 01:56:51,760
Speaker 1: that it has been, you know, somewhat liberated by the

1881
01:56:51,800 --> 01:56:55,480
Speaker 1: feminist movement as a you know, upwardly mobile white woman.

1882
01:56:55,720 --> 01:56:58,360
Speaker 1: You know, she has been liberated to an extent, but

1883
01:56:58,720 --> 01:57:03,640
Speaker 1: there are still all of these asterisks associated with her

1884
01:57:03,720 --> 01:57:05,840
Speaker 1: being able to function in this space. She's still going

1885
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:07,600
Speaker 1: to be treated like a mother. She's still going to

1886
01:57:07,680 --> 01:57:11,440
Speaker 1: be you know, if she's valued for her intelligence, it

1887
01:57:11,560 --> 01:57:14,960
Speaker 1: that is at the sacrifice of something else. And there's

1888
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:18,280
Speaker 1: still a lot of stuff that play there, and she

1889
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:20,920
Speaker 1: she shouldn't have done that to Jennifer, you know, like

1890
01:57:21,520 --> 01:57:25,720
Speaker 1: there was an opportunity to explore the relationships between women

1891
01:57:25,720 --> 01:57:28,360
Speaker 1: in a workplace like this that didn't end up happening

1892
01:57:28,400 --> 01:57:32,480
Speaker 1: in favor of this, you know, love trianglly bizarreness, like

1893
01:57:32,760 --> 01:57:34,920
Speaker 1: there was just room for more. But I do think

1894
01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:38,600
Speaker 1: that what is explored holds up maybe in a way

1895
01:57:38,640 --> 01:57:41,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of unfortunate, that is like, oh, maybe not,

1896
01:57:41,960 --> 01:57:44,720
Speaker 1: you know, maybe James Brooks hoped that more would be

1897
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:47,640
Speaker 1: different by now. I don't know, but it's definitely like

1898
01:57:48,040 --> 01:57:51,320
Speaker 1: a really well thought out movie. And you know, and

1899
01:57:51,320 --> 01:57:55,480
Speaker 1: and go Polly Platt. I'm glad that she got her first.

1900
01:57:55,640 --> 01:57:58,600
Speaker 1: I mean, like her story alone and how it intersects

1901
01:57:58,600 --> 01:58:00,840
Speaker 1: with this movie is a fascinat ending look at women

1902
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:03,800
Speaker 1: in the workplace at this time too. So give it

1903
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:06,800
Speaker 1: two and a half. I'll give one to Polly, I'll

1904
01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:11,840
Speaker 1: give one to Holly, and I'll give a half to Joan.

1905
01:58:13,040 --> 01:58:16,000
Speaker 1: Give it to Joan. Do I have to give nipples? Yes? Please?

1906
01:58:16,520 --> 01:58:21,640
Speaker 1: All right? I mean I feel ill equipped to rate

1907
01:58:21,720 --> 01:58:26,400
Speaker 1: this on any sort of inter sexual, intersectional feminist scale

1908
01:58:26,480 --> 01:58:29,720
Speaker 1: because I'm a guy, and because I think for many

1909
01:58:29,840 --> 01:58:33,800
Speaker 1: years I saw this as a paragon of feminist theory

1910
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:38,240
Speaker 1: in thinking, and that is because of my own Um,

1911
01:58:38,280 --> 01:58:41,920
Speaker 1: you know, lack of understanding or awareness of of these things,

1912
01:58:42,400 --> 01:58:44,960
Speaker 1: because it's not we're not taught these things in school,

1913
01:58:45,040 --> 01:58:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, we're not taught how to look at things

1914
01:58:47,360 --> 01:58:50,840
Speaker 1: differently and to empathize and put ourselves in the shoes

1915
01:58:50,840 --> 01:58:53,760
Speaker 1: of marginalized people were taught to be. It's like I said,

1916
01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:57,760
Speaker 1: it's very selfish and very self self centered, and to

1917
01:58:57,840 --> 01:59:00,360
Speaker 1: look at the world through a white male lens. So

1918
01:59:00,400 --> 01:59:03,680
Speaker 1: it's hard for me to say this is acceptable or unacceptable,

1919
01:59:03,760 --> 01:59:05,760
Speaker 1: or this is enough or this is not enough. But

1920
01:59:05,840 --> 01:59:08,240
Speaker 1: I will say just from my own perspective and what

1921
01:59:08,320 --> 01:59:12,480
Speaker 1: I took from it as a man who is of

1922
01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 1: a certain age and from a certain generation, and seeing

1923
01:59:15,600 --> 01:59:20,760
Speaker 1: the flowering of of people's perception of the world and

1924
01:59:21,000 --> 01:59:27,760
Speaker 1: our our collective common struggle. Um, it was enlightening to

1925
01:59:27,840 --> 01:59:30,480
Speaker 1: me every step of my life. Every time I watch it,

1926
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:32,680
Speaker 1: I think I learned something new, like you do, Jamie,

1927
01:59:32,720 --> 01:59:35,440
Speaker 1: every time I watch it. And you know, when I

1928
01:59:35,480 --> 01:59:37,880
Speaker 1: watched it the first time, it was, oh, this is

1929
01:59:37,920 --> 01:59:40,760
Speaker 1: a you know, this is a feminist masterpiece, etcetera, etcetera.

1930
01:59:41,480 --> 01:59:45,160
Speaker 1: When I watch it now, I get so much more

1931
01:59:45,280 --> 01:59:49,200
Speaker 1: from the male characters because I can put myself into

1932
01:59:49,520 --> 01:59:52,160
Speaker 1: the shoes of these loaths and male characters and say, oh,

1933
01:59:52,200 --> 01:59:55,560
Speaker 1: here are things that maybe I thought before. We're okay

1934
01:59:55,600 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 1: and aren't okay. And I can understand my effect on

1935
02:00:02,920 --> 02:00:05,879
Speaker 1: people a little bit more. I can understand my effect

1936
02:00:05,920 --> 02:00:07,840
Speaker 1: on women in the workplace a little bit more. I

1937
02:00:07,880 --> 02:00:12,000
Speaker 1: can understand why I want or need certain attention from

1938
02:00:12,000 --> 02:00:14,240
Speaker 1: women a little bit more, and why that may or

1939
02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:18,160
Speaker 1: may not be damaging to them. That is what I

1940
02:00:18,200 --> 02:00:21,880
Speaker 1: take from this movie more than anything else, is it

1941
02:00:21,920 --> 02:00:25,160
Speaker 1: forces me to be a bit more introspective about who

1942
02:00:25,200 --> 02:00:27,200
Speaker 1: I was raised to be and who I would like

1943
02:00:27,280 --> 02:00:29,640
Speaker 1: to be going forward. And I think that's that's what

1944
02:00:29,720 --> 02:00:31,400
Speaker 1: makes it a movie that I keep coming back to,

1945
02:00:31,600 --> 02:00:34,840
Speaker 1: is because it is ultimately a satire about how we

1946
02:00:34,880 --> 02:00:38,000
Speaker 1: talk to each other and why the world is the

1947
02:00:38,000 --> 02:00:41,040
Speaker 1: way that it is from the micro level of the

1948
02:00:41,080 --> 02:00:43,880
Speaker 1: news and the macro level of how men and women

1949
02:00:43,960 --> 02:00:47,760
Speaker 1: or genders or sexuality functions in the world. So, yeah,

1950
02:00:47,760 --> 02:00:50,560
Speaker 1: I will give zero nipples, but I will give it

1951
02:00:50,600 --> 02:00:57,720
Speaker 1: two thumbs up, just like my good friends Siskel and Ebert. Yeah,

1952
02:00:57,760 --> 02:00:59,680
Speaker 1: I just I just don't think I could. I can

1953
02:01:00,040 --> 02:01:01,400
Speaker 1: judge it that way. I have to. I have to

1954
02:01:01,480 --> 02:01:03,360
Speaker 1: judge it based on like what I'm learning from and

1955
02:01:03,400 --> 02:01:07,400
Speaker 1: I think totally fair. Well, Dave, thank you so much

1956
02:01:07,480 --> 02:01:12,960
Speaker 1: for joining us. What an I could have continued to

1957
02:01:12,960 --> 02:01:15,080
Speaker 1: talk about this movie for another two hours, but that's

1958
02:01:15,160 --> 02:01:18,880
Speaker 1: just that's too much. We went as long as the

1959
02:01:18,920 --> 02:01:25,640
Speaker 1: actual movie right to do Right tell us where people

1960
02:01:25,760 --> 02:01:29,760
Speaker 1: can follow you on social media, plug anything you'd like

1961
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:33,960
Speaker 1: to plug. Uh, I am at Dave underscore shilling on Twitter.

1962
02:01:34,760 --> 02:01:40,520
Speaker 1: Please when you have time free, spare time, subscribe, follow,

1963
02:01:40,920 --> 02:01:44,960
Speaker 1: Listen to Galaxy Brains. Uh. It is my new podcast.

1964
02:01:45,200 --> 02:01:48,640
Speaker 1: My co host and I Jonah Ray talk about movies, television,

1965
02:01:49,200 --> 02:01:51,680
Speaker 1: all of the pop culture things that we love, but

1966
02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:56,880
Speaker 1: from a kind of comedically analytical perspective, hence the title

1967
02:01:56,920 --> 02:02:00,120
Speaker 1: Galaxy Brain. So we we we will take a an

1968
02:02:00,160 --> 02:02:03,280
Speaker 1: outlandish theory about a movie or a television show and

1969
02:02:03,360 --> 02:02:08,560
Speaker 1: extrapolate upon that too. It's most absurd uh logical or

1970
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:14,960
Speaker 1: I guess illogical conclusion. We've done episodes about the Zack

1971
02:02:14,960 --> 02:02:19,040
Speaker 1: s Nyder Justice League where we talk about the nature

1972
02:02:19,160 --> 02:02:22,880
Speaker 1: of Superman and I end up giving a kind of

1973
02:02:22,920 --> 02:02:26,880
Speaker 1: passionate speech about why Superman should be sad because he

1974
02:02:27,000 --> 02:02:30,640
Speaker 1: is responsible for everyone else in the world. And why

1975
02:02:30,720 --> 02:02:34,640
Speaker 1: he should be black. We talk about Godzilla versus Kong

1976
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:38,360
Speaker 1: and try to figure out what Godzilla represents in that movie. Uh.

1977
02:02:38,520 --> 02:02:41,840
Speaker 1: We have an episode about Mortal Kombat and my moral

1978
02:02:41,920 --> 02:02:45,200
Speaker 1: Kombat and professional wrestling are basically the same thing. Uh.

1979
02:02:45,320 --> 02:02:49,320
Speaker 1: We talked to Patton Oswalt about Star Wars and uh,

1980
02:02:49,360 --> 02:02:52,560
Speaker 1: the efficacy of animation versus live action in that universe.

1981
02:02:53,040 --> 02:02:55,520
Speaker 1: And the episode I'm most excited about that we just

1982
02:02:55,640 --> 02:03:00,280
Speaker 1: finished recording is a look back at Joe's and the

1983
02:03:00,280 --> 02:03:05,600
Speaker 1: Pussycats for the anniversary, and we discussed whether or not

1984
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:09,000
Speaker 1: Josie and the Pussycats is not just a feminist film,

1985
02:03:09,040 --> 02:03:12,800
Speaker 1: but also is it the most anti capitalist socialist movie

1986
02:03:12,800 --> 02:03:16,240
Speaker 1: of all time? And our guests for that episode are

1987
02:03:17,040 --> 02:03:20,520
Speaker 1: the writers and directors of Josie and the Pussycats, Deborah

1988
02:03:20,560 --> 02:03:24,600
Speaker 1: Kathleen Harry Elfont. They were such a treat and spoiler alert,

1989
02:03:24,640 --> 02:03:27,200
Speaker 1: they agreed with everything we had to say, and they

1990
02:03:27,200 --> 02:03:29,560
Speaker 1: were very much appreciative of our reading of the movie.

1991
02:03:29,600 --> 02:03:31,640
Speaker 1: So I hope you listen to that one at the

1992
02:03:31,760 --> 02:03:33,840
Speaker 1: very least, because I think that's the one I'm the

1993
02:03:33,880 --> 02:03:36,960
Speaker 1: most proud of because we got to really chop it

1994
02:03:37,040 --> 02:03:39,920
Speaker 1: up with the people behind the movie and hear their

1995
02:03:40,000 --> 02:03:42,560
Speaker 1: perspective on why they were able to and what they

1996
02:03:42,640 --> 02:03:45,760
Speaker 1: hope to gain from making a movie that was so

1997
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:51,280
Speaker 1: very much about collective action and socialist thinking and feminist thinking.

1998
02:03:51,960 --> 02:03:54,560
Speaker 1: I mean, Josie and the Pussycats is the best movie

1999
02:03:54,600 --> 02:03:58,520
Speaker 1: ever joined the army because we did talk about subliminal

2000
02:03:58,560 --> 02:04:01,760
Speaker 1: advertising too, and how it clearly worked on me because

2001
02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:04,000
Speaker 1: I've seen the movie so many times. Oh my gosh,

2002
02:04:04,200 --> 02:04:07,879
Speaker 1: it's same. I have not one, but two T shirts.

2003
02:04:08,120 --> 02:04:10,600
Speaker 1: Did you get to do your T shirt? No, but

2004
02:04:10,720 --> 02:04:15,760
Speaker 1: I have seen it on super yocky and I am

2005
02:04:15,800 --> 02:04:21,440
Speaker 1: getting ready to buy it. Yeah. I know. Um well, Dave,

2006
02:04:21,480 --> 02:04:25,760
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. You you can

2007
02:04:26,280 --> 02:04:30,560
Speaker 1: follow us on social media at Spectacle Cast on Twitter

2008
02:04:30,600 --> 02:04:35,360
Speaker 1: and Instagram. We've got a Patreon a k a Matreon

2009
02:04:35,720 --> 02:04:38,040
Speaker 1: to subscribe to. It's five dollars a month and it

2010
02:04:38,080 --> 02:04:42,600
Speaker 1: gets you access to two bonus episodes every single month,

2011
02:04:42,880 --> 02:04:46,840
Speaker 1: plus access to the entire back catalog. And you can

2012
02:04:47,160 --> 02:04:50,040
Speaker 1: grab some merch over at t public dot com. Slash

2013
02:04:50,120 --> 02:04:53,280
Speaker 1: the betel Cast. Get some masks if you're still getting masks,

2014
02:04:53,280 --> 02:04:55,640
Speaker 1: Got some T shirts if you're still wearing shirts. Live

2015
02:04:55,680 --> 02:05:00,680
Speaker 1: your life not my business. Uh and are we signing off?

2016
02:05:00,720 --> 02:05:05,040
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, good night and good luck more at

2017
02:05:05,120 --> 02:05:08,520
Speaker 1: eleven A great way to end it.