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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,

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Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of

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Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.

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Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade

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Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent.

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Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible.

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Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means

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Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support.

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Speaker 3: But enough with that, let's get to the show.

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Speaker 1: Let's turn to Republican Congress and Thomas Massey, who you

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Speaker 1: guys probably know him, but just for those of you

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Speaker 1: who don't follow these things closely, he's libertarian, and he's

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Speaker 1: one of the few in Congress, and especially one of

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Speaker 1: the few on the Republican de side who's willing to

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Speaker 1: go against the grain. And he has voted against you

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Speaker 1: know how, they've been passing all of these Israel resolutions,

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Speaker 1: condemning anti Semitism, standing up for this, standing up for that,

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Speaker 1: and also obviously tons of money that they just voted

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Speaker 1: on to shift Israel as well.

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Speaker 4: And he will be frequently one of the.

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Speaker 1: Lone voices on the Republican side, one of the loan

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Speaker 1: votes against a number of those provisions.

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Speaker 4: That has, of course.

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Speaker 1: Made him a huge target of a pack well congresson

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Speaker 1: Massey was recently on with Tucker Carlson and the subject

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Speaker 1: of APAC and how this all works in Congress came up,

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Speaker 1: and his comments are very interesting.

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Speaker 4: Take a listen.

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Speaker 5: Is there any other Republican who has your views on this?

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Speaker 6: We Why have Republicans who come to me on the

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Speaker 6: floor and say, I wish I could vote with you today.

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Speaker 6: Yours is the right vote, but I would just take

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Speaker 6: too much flak back home. And I have Republicans who

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Speaker 6: come to me and say, that's wrong, what APAC is

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Speaker 6: doing to you. Let me talk to my APAC person.

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Speaker 6: By the way, everybody but me has an APAC person.

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Speaker 5: Does that mean an APEC person.

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Speaker 6: It's like your babysitter, your APAC babysitter who is always

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Speaker 6: talking to you for APAC. They're probably a constituent in

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Speaker 6: your district, but they are firmly embedded in a pack.

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Speaker 5: And every member has someone like this.

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Speaker 6: I don't know how it works on the Democrat side,

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Speaker 6: but that's how it works on the Republican side. And

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Speaker 6: when they and when they come to DC, you go

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Speaker 6: have lunch with them and they've got your cell number

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Speaker 6: and you have conversations with them. So I've had like.

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Speaker 5: That's absolutely crazy.

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Speaker 6: I've had four members of Congress say I'll talk to

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Speaker 6: my APAC person and it's literally what we call them,

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Speaker 6: my APAC guy. I'll talk to my APAC guide, see

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Speaker 6: if I can get to you know, dial those ads back.

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Speaker 5: Why if I never heard this before.

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Speaker 6: It doesn't benefit anybody. Why would they want to tell

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Speaker 6: their constituents that they've basically got a buddy system with

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Speaker 6: somebody who's representing a foreign country. It doesn't benefit the

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Speaker 6: congressman for people to know that. So they're not going

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Speaker 6: to tell you that.

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Speaker 5: It's it's in. Have you seen any other country do

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Speaker 5: anything like this, like Russia. Russia obviously determines the outcome

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Speaker 5: of our elections. We keep hearing that does anyone have

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Speaker 5: a putin guy that they talk to?

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Speaker 6: Not only do they not have a putin guy? Look,

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Speaker 6: they don't. They don't have a Briton guy. They don't

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Speaker 6: have an Australian guy. They you know, they don't have

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Speaker 6: a Germany dude. Like, it's the only country that does

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Speaker 6: this that has somebody that like uniformly, I guarantee there's

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Speaker 6: some spreadsheet at APAC where where you know the APAC

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Speaker 6: dude is, who's matched up with the congressman is there?

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Speaker 6: And then all the congressman's votes on the issue. Oh,

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Speaker 6: has the congressman been to Israel? They pay for trips

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Speaker 6: for congressmen and their spouses to.

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Speaker 5: Go to Israel.

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Speaker 7: I may be.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm not the only Republican who hasn't taken

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Speaker 6: the APAC trip to Israel, but I'm probably one of

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Speaker 6: a dozen that hasn't taken that trip, and the other

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Speaker 6: ones just haven't got around to it.

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Speaker 4: The a pack babysitter.

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Speaker 1: By the way, that thing about the trips that they

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Speaker 1: pay for not just for politicians, It's also for any

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Speaker 1: number of prominent people and media figures. In fact, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I talked about this here or somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: but when I started MSNBC got an email asked you

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Speaker 1: if I wanted to go on the APAC trip to Israel.

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Speaker 4: I said no, But you know.

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Speaker 1: That's part of what they do, because then they can

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Speaker 1: take you to Israel and they can show it to

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Speaker 1: you through their lens and have a chance to you know,

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Speaker 1: subtly and not so subtly propagandize you and plus just

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Speaker 1: create this human sense of like, oh, I owe this

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Speaker 1: person something because they took me on this great trip.

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Speaker 4: And I had a great time.

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Speaker 1: You know, so I like them, they're friends, They're friends

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Speaker 1: with me, like I should listen to what they have

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Speaker 1: to say. It's very intelligent in terms of influence pedaling.

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Speaker 1: But I think, you know a lot of Americans are

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Speaker 1: very shocked to learn that this is how this.

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Speaker 4: All works soccer.

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Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, it is like as you said, it's

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Speaker 2: amost funny because it is common knowledge here. I also

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Speaker 2: have been offered many free trips Israel. My only trip Israel,

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Speaker 2: by the way, paid on my own dime.

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Speaker 5: Thanks.

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Speaker 3: I don't take free trips from anybody. And that's the issue.

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Speaker 3: Let's put this up there on the screen.

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Speaker 2: Well, you have very clearly here quote bipartisanship or Republican meddling.

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Speaker 3: APAK is the biggest source of.

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Speaker 2: GOP donations in the Democratic primaries. It says, apaxy's support

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Speaker 2: for israelis bipartisan and its donors come from both parties.

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Speaker 2: It's practice of sending money from GOP donors into democratic

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Speaker 2: racist is quote enraged progresses. But I mean one of

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Speaker 2: the flagship cases here, Crystal, I'm sure you've been tracking

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Speaker 2: is Man. Dear Jones, who has effectively disavowed all of

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Speaker 2: his form progressive positions, has been basically what has he

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Speaker 2: been doing. He's been keeping them not only an arms length,

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Speaker 2: and he's been a huge beneficiary.

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Speaker 1: Well, he endorsed against Jamal Bowman's primary opponent, and Bowman

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Speaker 1: is under fire. He's been very courageous on Israel and

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Speaker 1: he deserves a lot of credit. And his district has

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Speaker 1: a significant Jewish population. Although you know, it doesn't cut

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Speaker 1: the way that people necessarily think that it's going to,

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Speaker 1: because I'll show you some numbers in just a minute.

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Speaker 4: But you know, a pack donor base.

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Speaker 1: It's not like your average working class Jewish American or

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Speaker 1: even average like Jewish professional American.

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Speaker 4: It is the elite.

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Speaker 1: It is very very wealthy, predominantly like CEOs and executives

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Speaker 1: who cut big checks to a pack. So it's not

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Speaker 1: like they're reflective of the Jewish community at large. And

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Speaker 1: in fact, there was polling that was done in Jamal

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Speaker 1: Bowman's district that found a very significant majority of voters

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Speaker 1: in his district, which again has a significant Jewish population,

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Speaker 1: said they would be much more likely to support a

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Speaker 1: candidate who backs a ceasefire, which Jamal Bowman does. However,

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Speaker 1: mandere Jones, who is desperately you know, trying to win

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Speaker 1: his congressional seat back, feels that Jamal Bowman's positioning himself

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Speaker 1: as an Israel critic has been damaging for him too,

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Speaker 1: and he feels afraid that that's going to be a

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Speaker 1: problem for him in his congressional race. So he's made

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Speaker 1: this very cynical political move to back Jamal Bowman's primary

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Speaker 1: opponent and basically disavow progressivism altogether. I mean, it's just

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Speaker 1: incredibly craven and the A PAC money is.

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Speaker 4: A huge, huge part of that.

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Speaker 1: I want people to think about this, you know, the

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Speaker 1: piece about how a Pack is the source of the

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Speaker 1: largest number of Republican donations into democratic primary races.

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Speaker 4: Like imagine if it was a.

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Speaker 1: George Soros backed organization that was being incredibly significant the

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Speaker 1: largest player in Republican primaries. Conservatives would be outraged at that.

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Speaker 1: They would think that was completely outrageous. And so progressives

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Speaker 1: really feel that way about a Pack, which gets a significant,

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Speaker 1: you know, about more than a majority of their money

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Speaker 1: from Republican donors. But it's not just that as well.

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Speaker 1: Here's a quote from the piece just giving you a

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Speaker 1: sense of the scale of their efforts. Here they say

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Speaker 1: competitive democratic primaries are the biggest targets for a Pack's

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Speaker 1: affiliated super pac, which is called the United Democracy proput

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Speaker 1: which has already spent almost twenty million dollars in the

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Speaker 1: race this year in democratic primary races this year, including

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Speaker 1: almost ten million in that Jamal Bowman George Latimer race.

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Speaker 1: That makes it by far the biggest outside group in

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Speaker 1: democratic primaries, with more money flowing from that a Pack

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Speaker 1: super Pack than the next ten.

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Speaker 4: Biggest spenders combined.

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Speaker 1: So the biggest player in democratic primaries is a group

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Speaker 1: that isn't even about American electoral issues at all.

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Speaker 4: It's about the.

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Speaker 1: Interests of a foreign government funded by largely a lot

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Speaker 1: of Conservatives, playing in democratic primaries. I mean, it really

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Speaker 1: is quite quite extraordinary, quite astonishing, and the money has

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Speaker 1: a huge impact both in terms of who wins these

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Speaker 1: races and also in terms of politicians look at this

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Speaker 1: and they're like, I don't want them playing in my race,

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Speaker 1: so I'm just going to do whatever they want me

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Speaker 1: to do. And that's something that Ryan Grimm has done

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Speaker 1: the best reporting on the way that they have served

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Speaker 1: as a check on Democratic candidates who might otherwise have

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Speaker 1: some level of criticism as of Israel. That is reportedly,

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Speaker 1: again according to Ryan, the sort of origin story for

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Speaker 1: John Fetterman being the most like embarrassingly pro Israel, like

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Speaker 1: Israel no matter what guy who's out there. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: that he cared about it that much before, but he

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Speaker 1: asked his basically apat guy where he should be to

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Speaker 1: keep them out of his Democratic primary race, and he

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Speaker 1: just took that and ran with it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right, and to your point about how

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Speaker 2: American Jews are not the monolith that apparently all of

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Speaker 2: media and Congress wants them to be. Let's put this

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Speaker 2: up there on the screen from Michael Tracy, because what

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Speaker 2: you see from this survey is that just twenty three

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Speaker 2: percent of American Jews plan to vote for Trump, down

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Speaker 2: from thirty percent in twenty twenty, despite Trump and a

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Speaker 2: lot of Republican donors saying, well, you know.

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Speaker 3: Basic, what do they say you're basically if you vote.

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Speaker 4: For Biden, basically you're not a Jew.

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Speaker 2: As completely astounding you can see here very clearly if

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Speaker 2: the presidential election were held today, who would you most

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Speaker 2: likely vote for?

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Speaker 3: Biden?

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Speaker 2: Sixty one percent Trump, twenty three ten percent actually say

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Speaker 2: someone else will not vote as six which of the

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Speaker 2: two party candidates for president would be better for the

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Speaker 2: US Israel relationship. You've got fifty percent there who say

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden. So I mean, this is a American Jewish

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Speaker 2: Coalition survey, nonpartisan organization. Basically, from what we can see here,

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Speaker 2: this is a pretty representative sample of American Jews. It

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Speaker 2: turns out that American Jews are just like everybody else.

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Speaker 3: They're stratified.

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Speaker 2: A lot of them who are wanting to vote for

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Speaker 2: Joe Biden are doing so for multifaceted reasons, Israel not

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Speaker 2: necessarily being the number one issue. Maybe it's a little

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Speaker 2: bit higher than many people who might vote for Biden

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Speaker 2: or for Trump, but they're.

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Speaker 3: Just like the rest of us.

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Speaker 2: And that's been the most annoying and thing about this

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Speaker 2: is Jewish students unsafe from protesters who are also sometimes

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Speaker 2: Jewish Zionism. You know, if without the thing I think

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Speaker 2: the most discussing name that Biden has said throughout this

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Speaker 2: entire conflict, just for me is if it weren't for Israel,

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Speaker 2: not a Jew in the world would be safe because

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Speaker 2: it undermines the theory of America itself. It would be

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Speaker 2: like saying, you know, for me, as a person of

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Speaker 2: Indian descent, that if it weren't for India's existence, I

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Speaker 2: would not be safe in the United States. No, my

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Speaker 2: passport says United States of America on it, and there's

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Speaker 2: nothing else the passport that I have, unlike many people

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Speaker 2: in Israel, by the way, who are a dual citizen.

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Speaker 2: So it's just it undermines the theory of the nation

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Speaker 2: state for a select group of people, which is antithetical

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Speaker 2: to the very idea of what it even means to

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Speaker 2: be American. And clearly many and most Jews see it

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Speaker 2: that way too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what it's like.

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Speaker 2: Who are you, mister Irish Catholic, to be litigating what

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Speaker 2: that means for everybody else?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and not to go too deep into the history here,

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Speaker 1: it was worth mentioning that, you know, the founding of

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Speaker 1: the state of Israel, there's sort of a corrupt bargain

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Speaker 1: between Western powers that you know, wanted to basically wanted

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Speaker 1: to remain, you know, with their image of like oh,

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Speaker 1: we're on the side of the Jews, and we're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, interested in protecting them, et cetera. But they

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Speaker 1: didn't actually want to like take in Jewish refugees themselves.

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Speaker 1: And Zionists who really found it to be a threat.

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Speaker 1: The idea that Jews could be integrated into America or

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Speaker 1: the UK or France or anywhere else. They saw that

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Speaker 1: as a direct threat to their project. You can understand why,

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Speaker 1: because if you have a safe Jewish diaspora that's integrated

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Speaker 1: into their communities, then there's less of an incentive to

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Speaker 1: move to Israel. So there was sort of this corrupt

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Speaker 1: bargain at the beginning that has continued to exist, as

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Speaker 1: reflected in those comments from Joe Biden. But if we

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Speaker 1: could go to B three, our friend Bronco Marttis did

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Speaker 1: a very interesting analysis of APAC donors versus donors to

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Speaker 1: the squad and he writes here in this tweet where

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Speaker 1: he tweeted out his analysis, he says he looked at

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Speaker 1: more than five hundred donors to APAX super Pac, which

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Speaker 1: is United Democracy Project that's the one we were just

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Speaker 1: talking about. It shows nearly sixty percent our top level executives,

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Speaker 1: nearly half of whom work in the fire sector, which

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Speaker 1: is finance and real estate. The average donation was nearly

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Speaker 1: ninety thousand dollars, so not exactly you're like average person

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Speaker 1: shelling out ninety k. Put the next one up on

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Speaker 1: the screen because he put together some great charts that

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Speaker 1: really illustrate the difference here, so you can see on

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Speaker 1: the left he says United Democracy Projecting, and that's eight

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Speaker 1: pack superPAC Wall Street Base. You can see how many

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Speaker 1: of their donors, what percentage come from finance, slash, insurance,

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Speaker 1: real estate, are retired, probably from one of those industries

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Speaker 1: misscelaneous business, lawyers and lobbyists and everything else is like

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Speaker 1: pretty small. And then you look at their donors versus

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Speaker 1: donors to the squad who have been the primary targets

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Speaker 1: of a pack. You have twenty percent of apack donors

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Speaker 1: are CEOs, significant percentage who are owners or founders, another

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Speaker 1: thirty nine percent who are top executives. That little yellow

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Speaker 1: bar you see there, that's working people. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: the donors to squad members, sixty percent of them are

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Speaker 1: working people and basically none of them from CEOs, founders,

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Speaker 1: top executives, etc.

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Speaker 4: So it just shows you you know.

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Speaker 1: Part of why the discourse in the media, I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's a whole plethora of reasons why, but part of

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Speaker 1: why the discourse in the media just assumes that all

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Speaker 1: Jewish Americans have the same perspective is because there is

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Speaker 1: a class divide, even within the Jewish community about how

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Speaker 1: they view these issues and how they prioritize these issues

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Speaker 1: as well. So I thought Bronco really got to the

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Speaker 1: heart of some of that class divide and why you

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Speaker 1: shouldn't assume that the position of a pack is reflective

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Speaker 1: of broader Jewish American sentiment, which I think has been

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Speaker 1: consistently the.

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Speaker 2: Ay, this is the same for all ethnic groups. I

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Speaker 2: see the stuff all the time. Yeah, Indian Americans against it,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, hey, shut up, all right, I'll keep

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Speaker 2: it kind you know. On this one, I'm like, you

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Speaker 2: don't speak for us, You speak for yourselves and your friends.

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Speaker 3: And I don't ever presume to.

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Speaker 2: Speak a quote unquote on behalf of the community, because

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Speaker 2: who's elected me zenative. Somehow though, in this ethnic group

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Speaker 2: that's considered not only okay but cannon, and then widely

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Speaker 2: accepted by a bunch of evangelical crit and Catholic Christians

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Speaker 2: to be canon for what they presume to speak on

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Speaker 2: behalf of, so totally ridiculous. It's always a class story

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Speaker 2: here in America, which means that really it's about something

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Speaker 2: totally different than what is being presented to you.

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Speaker 3: Crystal, what do you taking a look at?

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Speaker 1: A mainstream outlet has just kicked a hornet's nest, taking

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Speaker 1: direct aim at the claims of mass rape by Hamas

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Speaker 1: on October seventh, and finding no evidence to back those claims.

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Speaker 1: No surprise, a massive backlash has already begun, So let's

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Speaker 1: take some time to dig into this one. So, as

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Speaker 1: you may know, following October seventh, the Israeli garment pushed

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Speaker 1: a series of invented atrocities in order to justify a

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Speaker 1: military campaign filled with unjustifiable horse wasn't enough that Hamas

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Speaker 1: had wantonly murdered civilians, including young partygoers at a desert ravee.

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Speaker 1: The Israeli government and its American accomplices needed more graphic

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Speaker 1: visual imagery that could persuade the world that Gaza was

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Speaker 1: filled with inhuman monsters who must be wiped off the

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Speaker 1: face of the earth. We heard gruesome stories of forty

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Speaker 1: beheaded babies in actuality. One baby was horrifically killed on

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Speaker 1: October seventh, none were beheaded. Another baby we were told

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Speaker 1: was baked in an oven, also completely false. We were

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Speaker 1: told a pregnant woman had a fetus cut out of

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Speaker 1: her that was also untrue, and that volunteers had seen

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Speaker 1: bodies piled up in a pyramid, once again false.

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Speaker 4: But nothing has been.

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Speaker 1: As persistent or as politically charged as the oft repeated

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Speaker 1: allegation that Hamas used rape systematically on October seventh as

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Speaker 1: a weapon of war. This allegation has been embraced in

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Speaker 1: polite society as an ironclad fact and one which should

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Speaker 1: never be questioned. It was a subject of an Israeli

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Speaker 1: government social media campaign hashtag Believe Israeli Women, subject of

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Speaker 1: a Sheryl Sandberg documentary, a UN report, a now discredited

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Speaker 1: but hugely hyped New York Times investigation, and even a

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Speaker 1: congressional resolution which claimed Israeli police had evidence of quote

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Speaker 1: countless instances of rape, gang rape, sexual mutilation, and other

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Speaker 1: forms of sexual violence. Media elit's current political figures, including

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Speaker 1: Joe Biden, and past political figures like Hillary Clinton all

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Speaker 1: repeated the claim that not only did sexual assault occur

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Speaker 1: on October seventh, but that it was widespread and directed

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Speaker 1: from the top down.

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Speaker 7: And let me be clear, hamas usually rape, sexual violence

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Speaker 7: and terrorism and torture Asraeli women and girls is appalling

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Speaker 7: and unforgivable. And I was there, saw some of the

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Speaker 7: photographs and it is beyond it's just beyond comprehension.

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Speaker 8: We had two events last week. We had three panels

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Speaker 8: about Ukraine and they were superb. They went off without

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Speaker 8: a hitch. We learned a lot and were challenged. Two

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Speaker 8: days later we had panels on conflict related sexual violence.

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Speaker 8: It included Ukraine, Sudan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, and Israel,

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Speaker 8: and it was protested. You just have to ask yourself

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Speaker 8: how you could have an event focused on using rape

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Speaker 8: as a tactic of war against women and girls, which

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Speaker 8: is in conflict across the world, and you include the

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Speaker 8: most recent horrendous example out of Israel, and that brings

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Speaker 8: out the protesters. So there is an invidious strain of

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Speaker 8: anti Semitism that has never gone away. But we had

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Speaker 8: hopes it had been certainly submerged. That has been poking

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Speaker 8: its head up for quite some time now.

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Speaker 7: Fifteen thousand Palestinians have been killed in Israeli airstrikes, three quarters.

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Speaker 5: Of whom and are women. And it's horrible. But you

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Speaker 5: don't see Israeli soldiers raping well, Dana, I think we're not.

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Speaker 1: I could probably do entire monologues about each of those clips,

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Speaker 1: but the last one with Dana Bash really gives up

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Speaker 1: the game. Sure, Palestinians getting killed, it's terrible, but at

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Speaker 1: least they aren't getting raped like Israeli women. She uses

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Speaker 1: the mass rape claims to dismiss in real time the

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Speaker 1: horrors of Palestinians, which of course is the whole reason

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Speaker 1: why these claims were marketed so aggressively by the Israeli.

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Speaker 4: Government to begin with.

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Speaker 1: But from the beginning there were some brave voices out

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Speaker 1: there asking for evidence that just had not yet been produced.

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Speaker 1: Electronic Intofada, the Gray Zone, Z Squirreld, Intercept, and many

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Speaker 1: more began looking critically at the reports, pointing out where

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Speaker 1: narratives collapsed, evidence was lacking, or stories were ever shifting.

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Speaker 1: All of these attempts at actual journalism as opposed to

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Speaker 1: just writing up whatever government spokesfur us and wants you

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Speaker 1: to say. All of these were roundly smeared. The individuals

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Speaker 1: involved were personally intact as pro hamas rape apologists. Brianna

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Speaker 1: Joy Gray was just fired from the Hill because of

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Speaker 1: her willingness to question this narrative. Well, now a mainstream outlet,

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Speaker 1: The Times of London, has conducted an investigation into those

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Speaker 1: mass rape allegations, an attempt to sort fact from fiction.

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Speaker 1: And while listen, there are some parts I could take

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Speaker 1: some issue with, I still really highly recommend it. The

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Speaker 1: piece is very sympathetic to Israeli perspectives, even to the

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Speaker 1: ultra religious Zaka volunteers whose lies formed a core of

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Speaker 1: the mass rape evidence, and other atrocity fictions as well.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately Times of London concludes the bottom line is this,

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Speaker 1: there is no forensic evidence of rape. There is no

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Speaker 1: video evidence. Of October seventh, rate the government of Israel

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Speaker 1: claimed they had evidence of thousands of sexual assaults. They

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Speaker 1: have produced zero evidence to support a single claim. Here

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Speaker 1: is the report quote. To this date, police have not

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Speaker 1: interviewed a single survivor. On December twenty fourth, the police

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Speaker 1: issued a decree to hospitals ordering them to hand over

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Speaker 1: accounts of any rape survivor who had sought treatment. On

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Speaker 1: January fourth, the police put out a fresh appeal for witnesses,

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Speaker 1: saying they had succeeded in interviewing just three and had

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Speaker 1: been unable to match their accounts with the bodies collected

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Speaker 1: from the massacre site. The Times of London also discusses

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Speaker 1: the lack of evidence in the UN report compiled by

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Speaker 1: Promila Patten. Quote in all the Hamas video footage Patten's

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Speaker 1: team had watched and all the photographs they had seen

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Speaker 1: were no depictions of rape. We hired a leading Israeli

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Speaker 1: dark web researcher to look for evidence of those images,

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Speaker 1: including footage deleted from public sources. None could be found.

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Speaker 1: They also detail how the rape claims were obsessed over

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Speaker 1: and politically weaponized in a way that actually was damaging

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Speaker 1: to other survivors. After three hundred thousand people marched in

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Speaker 1: London to protest the ongoing genocide, and Israeli government spokespersons

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Speaker 1: smeared them all as a rape apologist. What's more, the

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Speaker 1: quest to prove the mass raped narrative erased the focus

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Speaker 1: on other horrific trauma and atrocities that were meted out

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Speaker 1: on that day. Doctor Rut Plonsker, a senior psychologist with

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Speaker 1: non governmental organization Safehart believes the focus on sexual violence

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Speaker 1: has been unhelpful for Nova Festival survivors wrestling with their trauma.

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Speaker 1: She said, I don't think there were a lot of

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Speaker 1: sexual assaults. There was a lot of murder. That's what

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Speaker 1: happened there. People were hiding and watching very horrible things.

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Speaker 1: She's skeptical that political leaders have the victim's interest in mind.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 1: Therapists are interested in the victims and the survivors. I

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Speaker 1: think politicians are interested in the image of Israel. The

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Speaker 1: head of an Israeli ripe rape crisis center told The

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Speaker 1: Times of London she was disgusted by the way the

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Speaker 1: rape allegations had been politicized.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 1: On October eleventh, the Foreign Ministry launch a campaign under

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Speaker 1: the hashtag believe Israeli Women. I did not think that

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Speaker 1: was sensible, she said. They didn't mean believe Israeli women,

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Speaker 1: they meant believe Israel Now. The article did not conclude

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Speaker 1: that no rape had occurred, and left open the possibility

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Speaker 1: that mass systematic rape had indeed been part of the

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Speaker 1: mass October seventh attack, but simply pointed out what is

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Speaker 1: inescapable at this point. As of now, there is no

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Speaker 1: evidence to back those claims. Now, naturally, a backlash has

438
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: been both swift and very revealing. Those three Israeli experts

439
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: that were interviewed for the piece wrote a joint response

440
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: claiming their words had been quote, misrepresented, twisted and cynically exploited.

441
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: One can only imagine what pressure these experts are under

442
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 1: in Israel itself. Notably, though they don't actually dispute any

443
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: of the facts from the piece, nor do they specify

444
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: these supposed misrepresentations or directly claim that they were actually misquoted.

445
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 4: It's all left very vague.

446
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,359
Speaker 1: Nonetheless, this response has fueled calls for The Times of

447
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 1: London to apologize or even to retract the report entirely

448
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: needless to say, that would be a strange thing to do,

449
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,920
Speaker 1: given that no error has actually been revealed. Meanwhile, however,

450
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 1: The New York Times has published an explosive new report

451
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 1: that does detail sexual assault used as a tool of

452
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: war in a systematic way, with actual evidence to back

453
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 1: it up. But you probably didn't hear about that report

454
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 1: because it was about Palestinian prisoners being tortured and sodomized

455
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,879
Speaker 1: by their Israeli captors. In a lengthy investigation into abuse

456
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: of Palestinians at an Israeli military based turned prison. They

457
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: write that Palestinians were subjected to brutal beatings, electric shocks,

458
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: in intentionional degradation, including being forced to wear only diapers,

459
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: and sexual assault. Quote Mister Elham Lowie, the senior nurse,

460
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 1: said a female officer had ordered two soldiers to lift

461
00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: him up and press his rectum against a metal stick

462
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: that was fixed to the ground. He said the stick

463
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 1: penetrated his rectum for roughly five seconds, causing it to

464
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: bleed and leaving him with unbearable pain. A leaked draft

465
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: of the unreport detailed an interview that gave a similar account.

466
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: It cited a forty one year old detainee who said

467
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: that interrogators quote made me sit on something like a

468
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: hot metal stick and it felt like fire, and also

469
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: said that another detainee died after they put the electric

470
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: stick up his anus. But there will be no congressional

471
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: resolutions about these assaults, No Sheryl Sandberg film, no convenience

472
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 1: with Hillary Clinton to discuss why we should hashtag believe

473
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: Palestinian men, because BB and Biden they never cared about

474
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: human rights or protection from sexual assault, health they don't

475
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: even actually care about Israeli women, since they're content to

476
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: continue to let hostages languish in Gaza with no ceasefire deal.

477
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 1: They care about cynical emotional manipulation for their own political

478
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: ends and to justify their own atrocities.

479
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 4: Just a couple of dudes who couldn't.

480
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: Care less about violence against women using fake feminism to

481
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: justify a genocide. At least one outlet is no longer

482
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: falling for the ruse and saga.

483
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 4: I want we mentioned this and if you.

484
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: Want to hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue, become a

485
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 2: premium subscriber today at Breakingpoints dot com.

486
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: We are very fortunate to be joined this morning by

487
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: doctor Annelle Sheeline. She is a former State Department official

488
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: who resigned over our government's policy visa of the Israeli

489
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: and especially the Israeli assault on Gaza. Great to have you, doctor,

490
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: you thanks for having me, and I understand now should

491
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 1: give a shout out to our friends over at Quincy

492
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: Institute that you are a research fellow for the Middle

493
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,119
Speaker 1: East there as well. Just start by introducing yourself a

494
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 1: little bit to our audience. What your position was at

495
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: the State Department and what led you finally to resign?

496
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 9: So I was a foreign affairs officer with the Bureau

497
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 9: of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor's Office of Near Eastern Affairs,

498
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 9: so drl NEA, the office that works on human rights,

499
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 9: does the human rights reports.

500
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 10: And I had only been at the.

501
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 9: State Department briefly when October seventh Hathbad. I'd only been

502
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 9: there about six months, and in the end, I served

503
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 9: for a year, which I had an obligation to the

504
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 9: government to serve for a year, and I resigned over

505
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 9: the unconditional support for Gaza, in particular the ways that

506
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 9: the Biden administration is violating American law. I think that obviously,

507
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,479
Speaker 9: not only is this having a devastating effect for the

508
00:27:55,480 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 9: people for Palestinians inside Vezza, but also for America's leadership

509
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 9: in the world. I think we are doing incredible damage

510
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:08,719
Speaker 9: to the international order, to international law. And I think

511
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 9: that this is going to come back to bite us

512
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 9: because as other countries see that the US behaves in

513
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 9: a way that the US and Israel have total disregard

514
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 9: for international law, what is to prevent other countries from

515
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 9: behaving similarly. Obviously we've saw Russia do that with the

516
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 9: invasion of Ukraine. But as we enter a world where

517
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 9: other countries are growing increasingly more powerful, I think the

518
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 9: US and Israel may come to regret the ways that

519
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 9: they thought they could just violate international law that there

520
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 9: would be no consequences.

521
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: Can you talk to us about what it was like

522
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: inside the State Department at that time? And I presume

523
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: that you were trying to voice dissent within the Department.

524
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 2: What was it like in terms of the incoming from

525
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: other countries and then trying to bubble that up to

526
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 2: Anthony Blincoln and how receptive was he to the criticism.

527
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 9: So, yes, exactly, there is the descent channel inside this

528
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 9: Date Department. So I co authored a dissent cable and

529
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 9: signed to other cables expressing my opposition and that of

530
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 9: my colleagues to the unconditional US support for Israel and

531
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 9: the effect this was having, and participated in open fora

532
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 9: The State Department was aware of the deep level of

533
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 9: concern and alarm over what these policies were doing, again

534
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 9: not only to the people directly affected, but also just

535
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 9: more broadly so from my office trying to promote human

536
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 9: rights in the Middle East, which already was not an easy.

537
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 10: Thing to do. To be clear, I mean, this is

538
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 10: a deeply autocratic system.

539
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 9: Many of these are governments where the US is much

540
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 9: more interested in maintaining the security relationship or you know,

541
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 9: just the nature of US relationships is not really governed

542
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 9: by human rights sort of as a rule. But just

543
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 9: the point was that after October s it just became

544
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 9: completely impossible to try to advocate for human rights, not

545
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 9: only because these governments would immediately turn around and say,

546
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 9: how can you criticize us on human rights given what

547
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 9: you're doing and supporting, and also that organizations, you know,

548
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 9: civil society organizations on the ground in these countries, many

549
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,200
Speaker 9: of them were no longer interested in having anything to

550
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 9: do with the State Department.

551
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: You know, you clearly didn't go in with a pollyann

552
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: of you. You're an experience professional. You wouldn't go in

553
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: thinking like, oh, the US always stands with human rights

554
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: and so that's the utmost priority. And yet still you

555
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: were shocked and horrified enough to you know, to ultimately

556
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: feel like you had to for your own integrity resign.

557
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: Was there a particular breaking point were you truly shocked

558
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,959
Speaker 1: by the you know, the blanket support even for you know,

559
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: things that were just outrageously clearly violations of US law. Either, Like,

560
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: what was it that really surprised you about the response,

561
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: given that you came in sort of clear eyed about

562
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: the pragmatic nature of what you were going to be

563
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: doing at the State Department.

564
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 9: Well, it's definitely true that I did not come in with,

565
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 9: you know, under any illusion that human rights were going

566
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 9: to be the top priority even for the you know,

567
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 9: for the Human Rights Office. However, you know, for me,

568
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 9: there was not one particular point. I think it was

569
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 9: really just the slow accumulation, just realizing day in and

570
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 9: day out that just kind of, no matter what Israel did,

571
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 9: the US just continue to provide more and more weapons

572
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 9: and more and more money, and it just seemed that

573
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 9: there was really no red line that Israel could cross

574
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 9: that would suddenly push the Biden administration to finally say,

575
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 9: all right, that's it, you know, we can no longer

576
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 9: support this. And you know, so, as I mentioned, I

577
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 9: was there exactly a year because I owed the government

578
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 9: a year. I'd had a fellowship that obligated a year's service,

579
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 9: so I decided that I would fulfill the obligation, and

580
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:01,040
Speaker 9: then on you know, exactly three hundred and sixty five

581
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 9: days after I started, was when I handed in my resignation.

582
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,560
Speaker 9: I had not planned to go public initially because I

583
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 9: was so new there.

584
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 10: I didn't think I was important enough to go public.

585
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 10: But it was speaking with.

586
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 9: Colleagues who said, please reconsider, Please consider going public, because

587
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 9: you know, these were colleagues who weren't in a position

588
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 9: to resign, and so they really at that time and

589
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 9: had only been Josh Paul, who'd resigned very early in

590
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 9: the war, and then Tara Kabash, who's a political appointee

591
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 9: from the Department of Education, were the only two public

592
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,720
Speaker 9: resignations at that point, but that after I resigned in

593
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 9: late March, we've subsequently seen.

594
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 10: Three or four more public resignations.

595
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 9: And the hope was that by resigning publicly to build

596
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 9: this pressure you know that we're seeing from many parts

597
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 9: of American society, obviously from college campuses, from the Uncommitted

598
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 9: movement and others really trying to say that the American

599
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 9: people do not support what the administration is doing.

600
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: Can you tell us about last year? Just referenced a

601
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 3: lot of.

602
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: Those colleagues who may not be in the same position

603
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 2: you obviously had, you know, you could make alternative arrangements,

604
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: et cetera. For a lot of the people who are

605
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: lifers and others who are inside of the State Department,

606
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 2: What would you say the prevailing opinion is.

607
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 3: Is it the vast majority? Is it? You know, half

608
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: and half are there? You know how representative?

609
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 2: I guess what do your views be inside of the

610
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: State Department amongst normal career officers?

611
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 10: It's really hard to say.

612
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 9: I mean, the State Department is massive, and I don't

613
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 9: you know, I'm not in touch with you know, the

614
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 9: thousands of people who work there, of course, right, but

615
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 9: I can just speak to, you know, those that I

616
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 9: was in touch with. There's a group called Fedes United

617
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 9: for Peace, for example, which represents not only people at State,

618
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 9: but people across the federal government who are are deeply,

619
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 9: deeply opposed to what's going on. And so they were

620
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 9: the ones who really supported me as I made the decision.

621
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 9: Well can contributed to me making the decision to go

622
00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 9: public and then supported me, especially through the bit of

623
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 9: a just a lot of media attention that followed, which

624
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 9: I was not expecting.

625
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 10: Like I said, I didn't think people would care. So

626
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 10: I mean, it's.

627
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 9: Really hard to say the level of opposition, but I

628
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 9: do think in particular from those who know the region

629
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 9: well and who have worked on this issue, that's often

630
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 9: where you see some of the deepest levels of opposition.

631
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 9: You know, these are people like Josh Paul, like Stacy Gilbert,

632
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 9: who recently resigned from the Bureau of Population, Refugees and

633
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 9: Migration because she had been working directly on the NSM

634
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 9: twenty and that the final report that came out did

635
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 9: not reflect the work that she and her colleagues had

636
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 9: done on it, which I just reflects the ways that

637
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 9: the State Department is ignoring the expertise of these many

638
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,400
Speaker 9: hundreds of individuals who know so much about the region

639
00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,320
Speaker 9: and know this incredible damage that these policies are doing

640
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 9: to us interests. Again, this is not just motivated by

641
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 9: sort of a bleeding heart concern for Palestinians, although that

642
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 9: is obviously, you know, part of it for many people,

643
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 9: but it's also just this is directly harmful to American

644
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 9: interests and arguably to Israeli interest We saw the myth

645
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 9: of Israeli security punctured on October seventh. The clearly perpetual

646
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 9: occupation is not a recipe for Israeli security, and so

647
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 9: the US would best serve you know, American donors who

648
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 9: are so concerned about the future of the state of Israel,

649
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 9: if that's their primary motivation, they should be supporting of

650
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:34,479
Speaker 9: some kind of stable resolution that allows Palestinians to live

651
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 9: in a circumstance where they don't they're not motivated to

652
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 9: react violently, you know, to engage and action like October seventh.

653
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 9: You know, like the extent to which this is also

654
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 9: self defeating is It's truly mind boggling because many of

655
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 9: the people working on this are such experts and know

656
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 9: so much, and yet we continue to see this same

657
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 9: futile and failed policy over and over and over again.

658
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's so well said.

659
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your reaction to the UN Security

660
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: Council resolution that the US just pushed through. We can

661
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 1: put this first element up on the screen, guys with

662
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: the numbers here. This is from Axius reporter Barack Revied breaking.

663
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: The UN Security Council adopted a resolution on Monday calling

664
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: on Hamas to accept the proposal for a hostage and

665
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 1: ceasefire deal. Fourteen member states voted yes and Russia abstained.

666
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: This has all been very strange. Why I wanted to

667
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: get your reaction to it. So Biden comes down, he

668
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: gives this big speech. He says, Israel has made this

669
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: very generous proposal for a permanent cease fire. Here's the phases. Now,

670
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: we're calling on Hamas to accept it.

671
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 7: Well.

672
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 4: Hamas and in.

673
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: Reaction also to this resolution for the UN Security Council said.

674
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 4: Okay, we're open to it.

675
00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:46,879
Speaker 1: Let's talk like, yes, if it's going to end the war,

676
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: we are open to that. And in fact, yesterday you know,

677
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: directly indicated that they supported the text of the Security

678
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 1: Council resolution. Israel, on the other hand, who's ceasefire proposal

679
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: this allegedly was, has been much more reluctant. There's you know,

680
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: was really divided opinion within the war cabinet. You know

681
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: how Benny Gantz out of the war cabinet. Natanyahuo reiterating

682
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: that he will not accept any deal that will end

683
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:15,799
Speaker 1: the war without completely eliminating Hamas, which we all know

684
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: has always been a preposterous goal. So what do you

685
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: make of this whole situation and what do you make

686
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,879
Speaker 1: specifically of the significance of this ceasefire resolution passing through

687
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: the UNSC.

688
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 10: I'm it is confusing. I agree.

689
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 9: I think the reason we're seeing this, at least to

690
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 9: my interpretation, is that the Biden administration believes that if

691
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 9: they portray this as sort of Israel's idea and then

692
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 9: they have to get Hamas to agree, then that I

693
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 9: guess would allow BB to maintain sort of the argument

694
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 9: that like, he was the one in charge and he's

695
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 9: the one you know, Hamas is agreeing to his terms.

696
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:00,959
Speaker 5: But this just.

697
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:06,919
Speaker 9: Reflects this ongoing blindness or naivete of the Biden administration

698
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 9: because Ibinet Nyahu has no interest in ending the violence,

699
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 9: because if the violence and the war stop, then we're

700
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,279
Speaker 9: going to have elections and he's going to lose the

701
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 9: Prime ministership and then he's most likely going to go

702
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 9: to jail so from because of corruption. I mean, he's

703
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 9: you know, that's that's his future, most likely, and he's

704
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 9: hoping that as long as he keeps the violence going,

705
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 9: maybe public opinion would shift to the extent that he

706
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 9: could continue, you know, maybe he could win the next election,

707
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 9: or you know, just somehow keep kicking that can down

708
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 9: the road so he doesn't have to face accountability for

709
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 9: his crimes and so you know, this, this notion that

710
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 9: the Biden administration has that if they frame this in

711
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 9: such a way that it looks as if Israel's the one,

712
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 9: you know, winning here or setting the terms that then

713
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 9: they'll agree to it just reflects this same failed approach

714
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 9: that's been going on this whole time, which is that

715
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 9: Israel does not want the violence to end. They've said

716
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 9: that they're not going to accept anything that ends the war,

717
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 9: which is, as you just pointed out, their military objective

718
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 9: of completely eliminating UMAs is impossible. And not only would

719
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 9: it be you know, I mean you've heard horrifying statements

720
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 9: from whether it's you know, for right members in Israel

721
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 9: or even in this country just saying to you know,

722
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 9: nuke the whole place still, I mean survivors and there

723
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 9: are there's a massive Palestinian diaspora.

724
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 10: I mean, there will.

725
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 9: Always be opposition, you know, there will always be those

726
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 9: trying to seek revenge. The state of Israel will never

727
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 9: be secure as long as there is not a just stable,

728
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 9: you know, secure solution for Palestinians. And so even if

729
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 9: they somehow managed to eliminate Humas, which as you said,

730
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 9: is like clearly notw happening.

731
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 10: This is not going to end you know who.

732
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 9: It may take a little while, but this will continue

733
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 9: to happen as long as we continue to see Israel occupying.

734
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 9: So I don't understand, really, why is the Biden administration

735
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 9: continues to pursue this failed policy, you know. We we've

736
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 9: also seen a lot of emphasis on the Israeli Saudi

737
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 9: normalization deal, including the announcement that that Biden wants to

738
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 9: extend the security to guarantee to the Saudis even if

739
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:38,240
Speaker 9: there isn't a normalization deal, which is crazy, Like, why

740
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 9: how is it in US interest to extend this, you know,

741
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 9: very ironclad security guarantee to the House of Saud when

742
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 9: they're not even getting you know, the supposed objective was

743
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 9: kind of Israeli Sadi normalization, let Israel feel more secure.

744
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 9: I mean, that's been the modus operende all along this

745
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 9: that if you make help Israel feel secure, then they'll

746
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 9: be in a position to feel like they can move

747
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 9: towards peace, which is the opposite of true. Instead, the

748
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,839
Speaker 9: more unconditional support the US gives to Israel, the more

749
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 9: they have been emboldened to expand the occupation, to annex

750
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 9: more territory to engage in greater and greater violence against

751
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 9: Palestinians because they know that there's no red line and

752
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 9: that the US will continue to provide them support no

753
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 9: matter what they do.

754
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 10: So all that to say.

755
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: It just.

756
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 9: I you know, they're ostensibly they're very smart people inside

757
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 9: the White House making these decisions, and I really just

758
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 9: don't get it.

759
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: Can you speak to something that I don't know, I'm

760
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: sort of personally fascinated by, which is you see people

761
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,240
Speaker 1: like Matthew Miller, who you know, State Department spokesperson probably

762
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 1: would describe himself as having very similar worldview as you do.

763
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 4: You know, like he's this, I'm.

764
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 1: Sure he sees himself as like a liberal internetism. I'm

765
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: sure he sees himself as believing in these laws that

766
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: are on the US books that are supposed to prohibit

767
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: transfer of weapons to human rights abusers and to countries

768
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 1: that are blocking humanitarian aid as Israel clearly is doing.

769
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: And you see them get up there day after day

770
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: and you know, ask us to defy what our own

771
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: eyes and ears are seeing in front of us, Like

772
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: having been inside, what is the like? How do you

773
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:31,359
Speaker 1: get to that place mentally where you're just willing to

774
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: go out there and say things like, oh, we're waiting

775
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: for HAMASTI accept the deal and Israel's on board. When

776
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: Israel is out here being like, no, we're not on board.

777
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 1: That allows you to say no, no, I didn't really

778
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: see that report about Israel blocking AID, even though obviously

779
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: you have obviously you know what we're talking about.

780
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 4: Or to say, oh, we're going to look into.

781
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: That there's going to be an investigation, when you know

782
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: there's never going to be an investigation, certainly not one

783
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: that we ever hear the results of.

784
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 4: Like how do you how do you end up there?

785
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 10: That's a good question, you know.

786
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 9: I thought the point about kind of the difference between

787
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 9: the position that I was in as someone who came

788
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 9: in later. You know, I have an academic background. I

789
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 9: was coming from the think ting sector. Now I'm back

790
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 9: in the thinking sector. That is very different from someone

791
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,800
Speaker 9: who's spent their whole career inside government.

792
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 10: This is their entire professional network.

793
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 9: The prospect of trying to leave, especially to have left

794
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 9: publicly where you've burned all those bridges and suddenly you're

795
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 9: seen as a traitor by your colleagues with whom you've

796
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 9: worked your whole career. You know, I understand why for

797
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 9: many people it is really challenging to think of resigning,

798
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 9: and especially to do so publicly when it comes to

799
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 9: Matt Miller or others who are in this position of

800
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 9: having to essentially lie. I shouldn't say essentially to lie

801
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 9: to the two reporters, to the public. We know he's

802
00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 9: lying because of statements from people like Hala Raret, who

803
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 9: was the Arabic spokesperson who resigned over Uzza.

804
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 10: A matter of weeks ago.

805
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,640
Speaker 9: She would send these horrifying videos coming out of Gaza

806
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:15,280
Speaker 9: and send the clear evidence, you know, photos and videos

807
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 9: and clear statements that Israel is blocking US humanitarian support.

808
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 9: Therefore they are no longer eligible to receive US security assistants.

809
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 10: That is the law.

810
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,720
Speaker 9: All of this stuff she and many others are making

811
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 9: sure is in the inboxes of all of these high

812
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 9: level officials every day. So you know, for someone in

813
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 9: that position, it's you know, I mean, it's perhaps gets

814
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 9: to things like the banality of evil. You know, Hannah

815
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 9: aren't talked about how it was that the Nazis were

816
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 9: able to function, that it's people just doing their jobs

817
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 9: being told. You know, these are your orders, and if

818
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 9: you don't do them, you know, you're out of a job,

819
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 9: you lose your income, you lose your status. I mean,

820
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 9: I think for many people inside State, there is very

821
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 9: much this sense of status. There is this feeling that

822
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 9: you are involved in something very important. I've been in

823
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 9: touch with colleagues who are opposed to what's happening, but

824
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 9: they believe it's important that they continue to do what

825
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 9: they're doing. Maybe they're not working on anything related to

826
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 9: Israel Palestine, but they feel that their own work is important.

827
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 10: And I don't want to discount that.

828
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 9: But I do think that everyone, you know, everyone in

829
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 9: this whole town, you know, Washington is full of people

830
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 9: who came who do this work because they want to

831
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:41,880
Speaker 9: make a difference.

832
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 10: They believe in making a difference.

833
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 9: And yet I do feel that I hope that everyone

834
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 9: sometimes takes a step back and really ask themselves, like

835
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 9: what impact am I having? What is the impact of

836
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 9: me continuing to go in and do my job every day?

837
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 9: You know, whether it's something little or something really important,

838
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 9: are you really changing anything? Because it doesn't seem like

839
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 9: much is changing. So all of these people who you know,

840
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 9: got the degrees and put in the legwork and now

841
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 9: have the position they were hoping for, or they're angling

842
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 9: for the position they feel like, we'll let them finally

843
00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 9: make a difference. I just would challenge them to look

844
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 9: in the mirror and question, what impact are you really

845
00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 9: having other than.

846
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:33,320
Speaker 11: To perpetuate the status quo, to perpetuate this system within which,

847
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 11: you know, the primary motivation for politicians is, you know,

848
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 11: the money from big donors, and big donors are actors

849
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 11: like major you know, defense contractor, you know, the Big

850
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 11: five defense you know, like the.

851
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 9: Military industrial complex is such a huge driver of our

852
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 9: foreign policy and our politics. So yeah, you know, and

853
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 9: I get it, you know, for kind of the any

854
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 9: individual person, how are they supposed to like take that down?

855
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 9: But I do think that if you're in a position

856
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 9: to come out publicly against what's going on, and especially

857
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 9: at a moment like this where we do have you know,

858
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 9: I mean, history will judge those who were in positions

859
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 9: to have made different choices and yet continue to make

860
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 9: the same choice. And this is part of why I

861
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 9: decided to go public, even though I, you know, was

862
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 9: not anyone in a position of particular power, but I

863
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 9: did just want to be able to you know, look

864
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 9: myself in the face. And you know I've spoken about

865
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,799
Speaker 9: this before that I have a young daughter and the

866
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 9: you know, imagining that she one day will be studying.

867
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,919
Speaker 10: This and we'll ask what we're.

868
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,319
Speaker 9: Doing, like, weren't you in government at this time? And

869
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 9: if I had said yeah, I mean I was, but

870
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 9: you know, there's really wasn't much I could do, you know,

871
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 9: I would be lying. I think, you know, I wanted

872
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 9: to be able to tell her, you know, I tried.

873
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 10: I tried to do what I could.

874
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, doctor Sheeline, We're really glad you landed at Quincy.

875
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: We love their work and we're especially grateful to you

876
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 1: for your courage and also for your time today.

877
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Tell people where they can follow you.

878
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:19,040
Speaker 9: By the way, I'm on Twitter and Nelle Sheeline and

879
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 9: you can find my work at the Quincy Institute quincyinst

880
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 9: dot org and you know we'll be working on these issues,

881
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 9: you know, look forward. You know, really appreciate all the

882
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 9: work that you all are doing to draw attention to this,

883
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 9: because I think the media narrative has been so influential,

884
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 9: and unfortunately the mainstream media has been so detrimental and

885
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 9: so I so appreciate those who are bringing uh who

886
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 9: are really you know, drawing attention to what's actually going on.

887
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:51,720
Speaker 4: Well, thank you.

888
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 1: We're very grateful for that and great to have you,

889
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: and we'll hope to talk to you again.

890
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate it.

891
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: We're gonna have a great counterpoint show for everybody tomorrow.

892
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 2: We will see you all on Thursday.