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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This is an arena where the lines between fantasy and

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Speaker 2: reality are always blurred. You're playing a role, you're talking

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Speaker 2: to someone who's playing a role, but inevitably the real

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Speaker 2: use thinks out through the cracks.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and and it's a deep dive into the unpublished

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Speaker 1: details behind their stories. Filmmaker Colin Archdeacon had an unusual

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Speaker 1: relationship with a convicted killer named Grant a Motto in Florida.

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Speaker 1: A Motto murdered his parents and his brother in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and the media blamed his obsession with a cam model,

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Speaker 1: but Archdeacon found out that a motto had a very

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Speaker 1: different motive. Let's find out more about the three part

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Speaker 1: series Control Alt Desire on Paramount Plus. What kind of

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Speaker 1: experience do you come to this series with? Did you

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Speaker 1: ever do any kind of print writing or journalism? Where

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Speaker 1: do you come from?

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Speaker 2: So? I actually very much came up through journalism. I

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Speaker 2: was a video journalist for about five or six years

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Speaker 2: before taking on this story. I'd been working as an

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Speaker 2: editor in the documentary field before that, and after making

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Speaker 2: not very much headway, I decided to kind of change

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Speaker 2: gears and get into journalism. So I moved out to

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Speaker 2: New York. I went to the Unity Graduates of Journalism

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Speaker 2: and then was lucky enough to get an internship at

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Speaker 2: the New York Times video department and kind of, you know,

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Speaker 2: paid my bills as a video journalist for the next

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Speaker 2: five or six years after that.

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Speaker 1: And how did you come to this story which I

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Speaker 1: have told you? I binged in actually more like half

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Speaker 1: a day, not even a day on Paramount Plus. I

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Speaker 1: thought it was wonderful.

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Speaker 2: So I was I was actively looking for a story

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Speaker 2: that I thought was worthy of a long form treatment,

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Speaker 2: and I was also really interested in finding a story

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Speaker 2: that I thought could kind of expose the way that

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Speaker 2: the Internet is changing the way we feel about ourselves,

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Speaker 2: the way that the Internet is reshaping society, and also

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Speaker 2: an opportunity to kind of talk about how that argument

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Speaker 2: is often exaggerated. And when I saw Grant's case, I

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Speaker 2: immediately saw all those ingredients and kind of took a

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Speaker 2: long shot. I wrote in a handwritten letter, and then

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Speaker 2: we were off.

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Speaker 1: Now, normally I like to unravel these stories as a mystery,

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Speaker 1: but I think we really do need to start with

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Speaker 1: Grant or where I guess where does it make sense

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Speaker 1: for us to start with this story.

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Speaker 2: What I could do is I could start the story

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Speaker 2: telling you how I heard about it, and then how

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Speaker 2: I started piecing together the clue. So my experience of

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Speaker 2: the story, like I just said, was, you know, I

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Speaker 2: sort of on the look for a documentary project. I

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Speaker 2: particularly wanted to do something that dealt with the Internet,

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Speaker 2: and I happen to see a headline in the Washington

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Speaker 2: Post about a man who had been arrested for committing

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Speaker 2: a violent crime. He was accused of killing his parents

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Speaker 2: and his brother in the home that they all lived

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Speaker 2: in together. And the way the media was spinning in

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Speaker 2: at the time is that the motivation for this crime

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Speaker 2: was this sort of jilted relationship he had had with

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Speaker 2: a cam model, which is sort of like a live

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Speaker 2: streaming burlesque act that people will watch on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: And I immediately thought, Okay, this man certainly thought that

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Speaker 2: he was in love with this woman. I didn't really

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Speaker 2: question the fact that he had a real, authentic emotional

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Speaker 2: connection with this person, but I did very much doubt

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Speaker 2: that this relationship was the real motivation for the crime.

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Speaker 2: And I knew that because of the lurid nature of

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Speaker 2: this crime and this accusation, that the media, the mainstream media,

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Speaker 2: and certainly the criminal justice system, was sort of flat

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Speaker 2: in the story and likely oversimplify it and make it

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Speaker 2: all about the cam girl. So what I did is

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Speaker 2: I wrote Atto a letter in prison. I think I

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Speaker 2: wrote it to him within three days of his being arrested.

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Speaker 2: I'd never written an inmate before. All I had seen

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Speaker 2: from Grant was some of his interrogation footage, which was

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Speaker 2: surfaced on YouTube very soon after his arrest, and one

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Speaker 2: of the first things that Grant talks about in his

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Speaker 2: interrogation is his love of anime and video games, which

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Speaker 2: is very perverse considering you know that he's under arrest

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Speaker 2: for murder. He immediately launches into this sort of like

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Speaker 2: fanboy monologue about how much anime beans to him. So

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Speaker 2: I saw that as an opportunity to get Grant talking

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Speaker 2: about himself, to get his mind off the case, and

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Speaker 2: I reached out to Grant with a letter and I said, hy, Grant,

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Speaker 2: you know I'm calling. I'm a documentary filmmaker. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'm not really interested right now in talking about the murder,

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Speaker 2: the things that you're being accused of. Let me tell

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Speaker 2: you a little bit about myself and let me ask you,

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Speaker 2: you know, what is it that you loved so much

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Speaker 2: about anime? Tell me a little bit about the games

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Speaker 2: that you played, Tell me a bit about what your

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Speaker 2: life was like before all this chaos. Put it in

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Speaker 2: the mail, didn't think much of it, wasn't sure what

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Speaker 2: was going to happen, started looking around for new stories,

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Speaker 2: and I think later that week I got a giant

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Speaker 2: letter from Grant in the mail, maybe five or six pages, handwritten,

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Speaker 2: and it was almost entire about anime and video games.

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Speaker 2: And what he said at the end of the letter

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Speaker 2: is that the reason he got back to me out

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Speaker 2: of all the other people who've been approaching him was

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Speaker 2: I was the only one who didn't ask if he

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Speaker 2: was guilty. I was really there to listen to Grant

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Speaker 2: to sort of just like bear witness to his own thoughts.

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Speaker 2: I didn't come in with an agenda, and I wasn't

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Speaker 2: immediately kind of getting at the forensics of the crime

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Speaker 2: and the mechanics of the murder or the mechanics of

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Speaker 2: the arrest. That wasn't what compelled me about his story,

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Speaker 2: whereas I think every other journalists that have reached out

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Speaker 2: to him was sort of looking for Corey details right

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Speaker 2: off the bat. And you know, from these humble beginnings,

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Speaker 2: a couple of you know, handwritten letters that sort of

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Speaker 2: generated a rapport between me and Grant that lasted for

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Speaker 2: over four years, me recording phone calls in my apartment

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Speaker 2: and then eventually selling this project to Paramount Plus and

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Speaker 2: going out and filming interviews around the country and even

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Speaker 2: in Europe.

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Speaker 1: I mean, one of the things that I think is

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Speaker 1: a huge benefit to a series like this, a three

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Speaker 1: part series on a streamer, is you do have the

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Speaker 1: time to dig into these different characters. And I thought

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Speaker 1: you did a great job talking about particularly the dynamics

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Speaker 1: of the family, of the Motto family, between the parents

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Speaker 1: and the two brothers. I would like to start with

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Speaker 1: the relationship between Cody and Grant, which I still am

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Speaker 1: a little confused about. Am I misremembering Grant saying that

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Speaker 1: he feels like Cody, the brother he killed, was the

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Speaker 1: love of his life.

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Speaker 2: That is absolutely what Grant said. He said it to

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Speaker 2: me very many times. And what became clear to me

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Speaker 2: once I started sort of investigating this case, talking to

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Speaker 2: people who knew the a Moattos and spending just countless

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Speaker 2: hours on the phone with Grant, is this was really

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Speaker 2: the love affair that triggered this horrible crime. It was

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Speaker 2: Cody who broke his heart. It was Cody that he

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Speaker 2: had pledged his life to, and it was Cody that

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Speaker 2: he could not stand to be without. These were brothers

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Speaker 2: that were only a couple of years apart. They had

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Speaker 2: the same career, They played the same games, they watched

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Speaker 2: the same movies. They spent all of their time together.

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Speaker 2: They had plans to live with each other as unmarried

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Speaker 2: adults once their parents passed away. It was something almost

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Speaker 2: beyond obsession. They were kind of living as one spirit

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Speaker 2: in two bodies. Is how Grant would say it to me.

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Speaker 2: And once Grant started to feel his grasp on that

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Speaker 2: relationship weakening, that's when he turned to the cam model.

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Speaker 2: And that's when his life really started spinning out of control.

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Speaker 1: And I remember Grant saying, I think it was Grant

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Speaker 1: saying they hoped to die at the same time. One

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Speaker 1: couldn't live without the other. Cody really felt like that too.

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Speaker 2: Cody appears who have felt like that too. You know,

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Speaker 2: these were two They were, I believe twenty nine and

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Speaker 2: thirty at the time of the murders. These were two

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Speaker 2: brothers who had strong, lucrative, promising careers in healthcare, and

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Speaker 2: yet they both elected to when their late twenties and

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Speaker 2: early thirties to continue to live at home with their parents,

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Speaker 2: who still did all their laundry, cooked all their meals,

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Speaker 2: did their taxes for them, and they were kind of

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Speaker 2: just free to sit in their bedrooms and you know,

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Speaker 2: play on the internet all day and then go to

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Speaker 2: work when they had to go to work. And that

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Speaker 2: was pretty much their lives. It was very sheltered, very small,

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Speaker 2: and very comfortable for them. Very very deep expression of

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Speaker 2: comfort is what I got from Grant, which is you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of what the you know, the suburbs are designed

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Speaker 2: to provide for its inhabitants, and it's certainly what they

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Speaker 2: were doing. They were living the suburban dream. They had money,

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Speaker 2: they had comfort, they had privacy, they had all the

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Speaker 2: toys they wanted, and they had a future that was very,

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Speaker 2: very secure. Once that position of security was challenged by

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Speaker 2: Grant's own decision making, that's when he really started to

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Speaker 2: spin out of control.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the things the strengths about this

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Speaker 1: series also is that it feels like you can because

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Speaker 1: of the way you move, you move through the chronological order,

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Speaker 1: I feel like everything, you know, you can really kind

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Speaker 1: of tell where things fall apart, how they start out

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Speaker 1: as a very strong family and then we have these revelations.

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Speaker 1: So will you tell me specifically about the dynamic between

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Speaker 1: the parents and the kids, because this seems at first

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Speaker 1: like both parents are in the medical field. Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yep, both parents were in the medical field. I believe

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Speaker 2: that Margaret, the mother, worked on the phones for an

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Speaker 2: insurance company in some capacity, and that the father, Chad

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Speaker 2: was it was a pharmacist who at the time of

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Speaker 2: the crimes was working as a telepharmacist for CBS, so

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Speaker 2: they both had strong careers in the medical field sort

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Speaker 2: of shepherded their sons through it as well. And you know,

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Speaker 2: from the outside, it really looked like the perfect happy family.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's these four people who spent all of

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Speaker 2: their time together, who lived together in this giant house,

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Speaker 2: seemingly peacefully, and they just spent every waking moments of

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Speaker 2: their free times in each other's company, which I think,

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Speaker 2: in a way was not the best for Grant. I

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Speaker 2: think it shrunk his world so that the way that

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Speaker 2: his family felt about him was all that mattered. It

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Speaker 2: was the only thing he knew it was. You know,

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Speaker 2: those were really the four walls of his psychological existence.

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Speaker 2: What these three people thought about him.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Chad, because I think later on in

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Speaker 1: the series we find out that Cody and Grant's father

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Speaker 1: seems to be pretty controlling, which makes sense considering they're

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Speaker 1: all in the same house and they're together. I would

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Speaker 1: have guessed that he was controlling. Do you have evidence

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Speaker 1: of that or how do we even know that?

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Speaker 2: There's very strong evidence that Chad was sort of a controlling, overbearing,

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Speaker 2: domineering father. It's how he would describe himself. It's how

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Speaker 2: his coworkers described him. It's how neighbors and friends of

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Speaker 2: the Amodel Boys described him as very controlling. He certainly

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Speaker 2: seemed like an eccentric, but it didn't seem to be

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Speaker 2: something profoundly pathological or something that you wouldn't see, you know,

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Speaker 2: in any standard neighborhood in America. He was an overbearing

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Speaker 2: father who was obsessed with his children, who wanted to

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Speaker 2: control their lives, but it didn't seem like it was

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Speaker 2: anything too out of the ordinary. That being said, Grant

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Speaker 2: does tell a sort of chilling story about how his

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Speaker 2: father would always talk about how he was in touch

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Speaker 2: with God and how God would come to him in

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Speaker 2: his sleep and tell him what he should do and

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Speaker 2: tell him how he should control the family, and that

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Speaker 2: he had one vision. When Margaret, the mother was in

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Speaker 2: the hospital giving birth to Grant, Chad allegedly had a

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Speaker 2: vision of the devil coming to him and telling him

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Speaker 2: that Grant would be his greatest failure in life. And

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Speaker 2: this was sort of an omen of prophecy that Chad

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Speaker 2: didn't share with Grant until I think a few weeks

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Speaker 2: before the murders took place, So it does give you

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Speaker 2: an idea of sort of the grandiosity that Chad may

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Speaker 2: have had. But I want to be very careful about

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Speaker 2: not dragging Chad's name through the mud. He's not here

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Speaker 2: to defend himself. Grant is certainly an unreliable narrator, and

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Speaker 2: he said lots of awful things about his family that

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Speaker 2: we did not include in the series because we were

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Speaker 2: not able to corrobborat Well.

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Speaker 1: That's smart, and that's part of being a journalist, you know,

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Speaker 1: as understanding the difference between throwing everything in the kitchen

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Speaker 1: sink and saying, Okay, this is all the information we

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Speaker 1: have versus being able to cooperate with other people. So

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you were able to do that. What do

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Speaker 1: we know about Margaret? Was she someone who was an

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Speaker 1: enabler or did she sign on with this with Chad,

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Speaker 1: or you know, do we think that she was just

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Speaker 1: sort of there and control along with the two guys.

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Speaker 2: I think you know everything that I was able to

252
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Speaker 2: learn about Margaret. A motto tells me that she was

253
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Speaker 2: an incredibly caring person, an altruist and very devoted mother,

254
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Speaker 2: someone who devoted a huge amount of her free time

255
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Speaker 2: to rehabilitating animals to doting on her children, probably spent

256
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Speaker 2: periods of that marriage failing a little under the thumb

257
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Speaker 2: of Chat Tomato. But ultimately, the portrait that we got

258
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Speaker 2: of this couple in their old age, nearing retirement is

259
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Speaker 2: people who've settled into a very peaceful coexistence. You know,

260
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Speaker 2: they would cuddle up and drink wine and watch old

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Speaker 2: movies on the weekend. And though she had sort of

262
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Speaker 2: weathered the storm of Chat's eccentricities during their younger years together,

263
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Speaker 2: it was still a functional marriage and a happy one

264
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Speaker 2: at times.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that Cody and Grant, who incidentally I

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Speaker 1: thought were twins, I mean, they look so much alike.

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Speaker 2: They look absolutely like twins. Yeah, sound canny.

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Speaker 1: What are the differences in their personalities that you've learned,

269
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Speaker 1: if anything? Or are they really working in parallel with

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Speaker 1: each other their whole lives.

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Speaker 2: Cody was a lot more of an alpha. I think

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Speaker 2: he took after Chad a little bit more. He was domineering,

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Speaker 2: he was confident, he was a little more swaggering, and

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Speaker 2: he was certainly more socially well adjusted. He had just

275
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Speaker 2: entered a romantic relationship with a coworker around the time

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Speaker 2: of these crimes, which is something that seemed just completely

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Speaker 2: out of reach of Grant. So I think what we

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Speaker 2: see as sort of a Cody who was higher functioning,

279
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Speaker 2: more charismatic, better socially well adjusted, and it was this

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Speaker 2: process of him eclipsing his younger brother Grant that became

281
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Speaker 2: something that was just psychologically unmanageable for Grant, this parallel

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Speaker 2: track of him and Cody. Suddenly he was on his

283
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Speaker 2: own course, and it was a darker, lonelier course, and

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Speaker 2: he couldn't stand the separation.

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Speaker 1: Does it seem like Cody was going to at some

286
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Speaker 1: point get serious with someone and then move out, and

287
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Speaker 1: that was what Grant's fear was.

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Speaker 2: It's unclear exactly what Cody's long term plans were. He

289
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Speaker 2: certainly had no financial reason to be staying at home

290
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Speaker 2: and living with his parents. I think there was a

291
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,480
Speaker 2: sense that, you know, this was a committed unit and

292
00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:05,520
Speaker 2: the Amatos stuck together, and that's how everyone in that

293
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Speaker 2: house wanted it. Certainly, anyone there could have left. Margaret

294
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Speaker 2: could have filed for divorce. Cody or Grant could have

295
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Speaker 2: gotten their own apartment, and they decided not to do so.

296
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Speaker 2: So the evidence that we have is that Cody, while

297
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,200
Speaker 2: maybe bristling a little more under Chad's regimen than Grant had,

298
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Speaker 2: was comfortable with the relationship and did love, you know,

299
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Speaker 2: living in his childhood room down the hallway from his brother,

300
00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 2: watching anime, playing video games, and sort of like having

301
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Speaker 2: family dinner every night, Which is not to say that

302
00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't, you know, the kind of person who's going

303
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Speaker 2: to grow up and get married and eventually move out.

304
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Speaker 2: But at the age of thirty, he was not that

305
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:40,440
Speaker 2: kind of prison.

306
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Speaker 1: Let's talk about their careers. Both of these men go

307
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Speaker 1: into the medical field, and then Grant loses his job,

308
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Speaker 1: which I thought, oh man, he must have really screwed

309
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Speaker 1: something up. But the way that it's framed in the

310
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Speaker 1: series feels like not something like he is, you know,

311
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Speaker 1: Angel of Death or anything like that. It just seems

312
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Speaker 1: like he was thinking differently, tell me what happens in

313
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Speaker 1: his job before he's let go.

314
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Speaker 2: So Grant and Cody were both studying to become nurse anesthesiologists,

315
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Speaker 2: which is sort of the person that puts a patient

316
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Speaker 2: to sleep before a major surgery. I'm sure it's much

317
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Speaker 2: more complex than that, but that was sort of the

318
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Speaker 2: general gist of what they did. At the time where

319
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:24,320
Speaker 2: Grant's career was sort of derailed. He was in nurse

320
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Speaker 2: anesthesia school, so he was at the point where he

321
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 2: was doing his clinicals sort of like working as an

322
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Speaker 2: intern performing anesthesia in a hospital. Not quite a full

323
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Speaker 2: fledged antestesiologist, but someone who had, you know, a man

324
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Speaker 2: with the amount of medical training and could be trusted

325
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Speaker 2: to put patients to sleep. He was working in an

326
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Speaker 2: L and D ward or a neonatal ward, I'm not

327
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Speaker 2: sure exactly which, but working with pregnant women preparing to

328
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Speaker 2: give birth, and ultimately I'm sure in labor and he

329
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Speaker 2: was giving someone who was giving a female patient an epidoral,

330
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Speaker 2: which is like a very long syringe that goes into

331
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Speaker 2: the spinal cord. And basically he had a disagreement with

332
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Speaker 2: the doctor in charge over how to play the needle,

333
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Speaker 2: how to insert the needle in, how much drug to administer,

334
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: and instead of sort of backing down and being the

335
00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 2: student and accepting instruction from his superior, he sort of

336
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,800
Speaker 2: bristled and started a big argument and insisted that he

337
00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,000
Speaker 2: was right and the doctor was wrong. This confrontation sort

338
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,720
Speaker 2: of boiled over into the hallway where they were having

339
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 2: this frankly very unprofessional disagreement in front of other patients,

340
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 2: and once word of this confrontation sort of made its

341
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,240
Speaker 2: way up to the school, they immediately kicked Grant out.

342
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Speaker 2: Not necessarily because he was right or wrong. I'm certainly

343
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,800
Speaker 2: not qualified to say if he was right or wrong

344
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Speaker 2: about how this medication should be administered, but just the

345
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 2: idea that in the middle of training he would call

346
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,960
Speaker 2: out his doctor and do so in front of patients

347
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,080
Speaker 2: who are depending on the team of medical professionals to

348
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 2: administer appropriate care was sort of beyond the pale. So

349
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, Grant is now kicked out of

350
00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:53,320
Speaker 2: nurse and ansthesia school and forced to work as registered nurse,

351
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,320
Speaker 2: which he sort of saw as a position beneath him,

352
00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 2: beneath his education level, beneath his intellectual level, and certainly

353
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 2: now beneath his brother Cody. So this is really the

354
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,879
Speaker 2: first the first time where the chain is broken and

355
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,199
Speaker 2: these two men are not living identical lives. Now Cody

356
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:13,199
Speaker 2: is a nurse anesetist. He's on track to have an

357
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,920
Speaker 2: enormous income, to have prestige, to have control of his schedule,

358
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,840
Speaker 2: to sort of attain a lifestyle similar to the kind

359
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:21,560
Speaker 2: that his father was able to provide for the family.

360
00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,679
Speaker 2: And Grant is now knocked down a level. He's a

361
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,960
Speaker 2: registered nurse, which he saw as a pedestrian job. He

362
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 2: kind of saw the prospect of him ever achieving a

363
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 2: higher degree is almost impossible now that he had this

364
00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,159
Speaker 2: black mark on his record. And then, believe it or not,

365
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,119
Speaker 2: Grant makes another very similar mistake. He's now working as

366
00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: a registered nurse. He is at sort of one of

367
00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,719
Speaker 2: these generic drive up clinics that you see all over Orlando.

368
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,840
Speaker 2: There's a huge medical industry in Orlando, and again involving

369
00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:55,600
Speaker 2: pain medication. Grant felt that some of the patients under

370
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,239
Speaker 2: his care as an r end were not being, as

371
00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,119
Speaker 2: he put it in the police statement, adequately relaxed. What

372
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:02,600
Speaker 2: he was doing is he was basically as strange as

373
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Speaker 2: it sounds, in these medical clinics, as far as I

374
00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 2: could gather, there's sort of like a vending machine for

375
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,800
Speaker 2: these painkillers, and what Grant was doing, and you know,

376
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,440
Speaker 2: you have to type in a lot of very specific

377
00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,040
Speaker 2: information in order to get the medicine to pop out,

378
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,359
Speaker 2: and Grant was going to these vending machines and taking

379
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,399
Speaker 2: out way more medicine than he needed, storing it in

380
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,000
Speaker 2: his pockets and doling it out as he saw fit

381
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,639
Speaker 2: to patients, and this resulted in some people being over medicated.

382
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 2: It's certainly completely illegal to be taking out these super

383
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 2: strong sedatives. I think it was prope ful in this case,

384
00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:33,959
Speaker 2: which is what killed Michael Jackson. And he was sort of,

385
00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:35,880
Speaker 2: I don't want to say, playing god because he wasn't

386
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 2: killing anybody, but he again, you get a sense of

387
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 2: the arrogance, the egomania, and sort of the disdain for authority,

388
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 2: all things that Grant, you know, was not really able

389
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 2: to express in his family life. In his life as

390
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,919
Speaker 2: the younger brother, his life is sort of the you know,

391
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,600
Speaker 2: the hen pecked son. But at work he was very

392
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 2: comfortable being this sort of domineering, aggressive, swaggering, know it

393
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,800
Speaker 2: all and he got busted almost immediately for doing this.

394
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,159
Speaker 2: And when he was confronted by his bosses at this clinic,

395
00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,600
Speaker 2: he started shivering and shaking, started saying he had nothing

396
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,399
Speaker 2: left to live for anymore, and he scared them to

397
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 2: the point that they thought he might commit suicide, which

398
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 2: is what they called the cops. So again, you know,

399
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,959
Speaker 2: what could have been a simple disagreement at work that,

400
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 2: if handled professionally, could have been swept aside. Grant let

401
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,879
Speaker 2: his emotions get the better of him. The police were called,

402
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,240
Speaker 2: he was arrested and charged with I think a felony,

403
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,879
Speaker 2: theft of medication. It may not have been a felony,

404
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,800
Speaker 2: but he was certainly charges were pending, and he was

405
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,639
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, made bail sent home awaiting the

406
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,240
Speaker 2: results of that case. So now, all of a sudden,

407
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:43,320
Speaker 2: not only is Grant no longer able to work as

408
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,440
Speaker 2: a nurse anesthetist, he is looking at the possibility of

409
00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,639
Speaker 2: having to forfeit his entire medical career. He's not going

410
00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 2: to be able to work as a nurse. I'll never

411
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:52,000
Speaker 2: be able to achieve any kind of higher degree in

412
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 2: the medical field. He'll be blackballed. And again, not only

413
00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 2: does this set him off track with his brother Cody.

414
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 2: Now he can't support himself. He's discribed the family. He

415
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,439
Speaker 2: can't work in the field that the entire family works in.

416
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: He is now completely outcast from the life that he

417
00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 2: had created for himself and also very much the life

418
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 2: that Chad, his father had created for him. You can

419
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,080
Speaker 2: live in my giant suburban home you can play games

420
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,280
Speaker 2: all day so long as you get a degree, you

421
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,800
Speaker 2: work hard, and you achieve success in the medical career.

422
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, in a very short amount of months,

423
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:24,159
Speaker 2: Grant had thrown all of that away.

424
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: Did you get a sense from anybody in Chad and

425
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 1: Margaret's world about what their reaction was to all of

426
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,679
Speaker 1: this or Cody's reaction. Was it, in fact shaming? I

427
00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,159
Speaker 1: can't believe you did this. You such are moron. You know,

428
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 1: what are you going to do with your life now?

429
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: Was that their reaction?

430
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 2: I think in private, there was a little bit of

431
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 2: browbeating against Grant. Of course, any father who had worked

432
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 2: so hard to provide such a comfortable lifestyle would be,

433
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, scandalized by what Grant had done, and they

434
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,440
Speaker 2: would say, I don't understand this, what are you doing?

435
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 2: How could you have done this? But more importantly, what

436
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 2: the family did is they locked arms and they did

437
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 2: everything they could to rally around Grant and support him.

438
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 2: They got him therapy, they got him lawyers, They did

439
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,119
Speaker 2: everything in their power to get him back on his feet.

440
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: And they were the same supportive, committed, devoted parents that

441
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 2: they always had. That and Grant, as we see again,

442
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,280
Speaker 2: was just surrounded by support and love. Maybe it was

443
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,480
Speaker 2: a bit of a crooked love. Maybe it wasn't always

444
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,480
Speaker 2: expressed in the most supportive or effective way, but clearly

445
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: these were two parents who desperately loved their son, wanted

446
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 2: him to get better, and would spare no emotional or

447
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,200
Speaker 2: financial expense to help him do so.

448
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 1: Now, this is I think the first time I really

449
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 1: understood the concept of a cam girl, and you explained it.

450
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 1: I thought, very well, kind of burlesque show, sexy woman

451
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 1: on camera. But when does the camgirl concept enter into

452
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: Grant's life, because it feels like it just takes over

453
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 1: almost instantly.

454
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,320
Speaker 2: So yeah, very shortly after Grant lost his second job,

455
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 2: you know, was charged with felony theptic medication. He's at

456
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,639
Speaker 2: home now, all that, never leaving the house, spending what

457
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 2: he told me, eighteen to twenty four hours a day

458
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,040
Speaker 2: on the internet. He tried to start a streaming career

459
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,359
Speaker 2: on Twitch, which is where people will sort of watch

460
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,720
Speaker 2: you play video games. Maybe sort of unimaginable to people

461
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 2: my age and older, but very popular, very popular online today,

462
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 2: which is a mammoth platform with lots of really talented

463
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 2: broadcasters on it, and Grant, you know, kind of convinced

464
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 2: his family, Hey, I'm going to broadcast myself playing video

465
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: games and it will be my new career. And again,

466
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:37,119
Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure with enormous amounts of skepticism. You know,

467
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,040
Speaker 2: they helped him buy all the equipment he needed to

468
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,240
Speaker 2: be a streamer. They encouraged him. He tried it. Now,

469
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, he's in his bedroom all day

470
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: alone playing video games quote unquote professionally, and he's bringing

471
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: in something like one hundred dollars a month. It's clearly

472
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,479
Speaker 2: not going anywhere. It's a ridiculous fantasy. There's no future

473
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,040
Speaker 2: in it. And then one day alone at night, as

474
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 2: Grant tells the story, he's downloading anime on a tour

475
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 2: in site and he sees an ad from myfreecams dot com,

476
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 2: which is an extremely popular camming website, camming platform. He

477
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 2: clicks on it. He's whisked into this world. You know,

478
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 2: I've seen it now. It's sort of like, you know,

479
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 2: this carousel of different women that you can click on,

480
00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: and then all of a sudden you're transported into a

481
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 2: room with them. They're sitting in front of a computer

482
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 2: with a camera on it. Often just chit chatting with

483
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 2: members they're in, you know, often underwear revealing outfits, and

484
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 2: then over the course of like you know, a two

485
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 2: or three hour performance, the vast majority of which is

486
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,399
Speaker 2: just sort of small talk, it evolves into sort of

487
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 2: like more erotic acts and performances. The way Grant tells it,

488
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,600
Speaker 2: he saw this woman and fell in love at first sight.

489
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: Her stage name was Eddie Sweet. She was a Bulgarian camperformer,

490
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 2: you know, with dark hair, beautiful blue eyes. To Grant,

491
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 2: must have sounded like a very exotic accent. She had

492
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 2: sort of a dark, biting sense of humor, and Grant

493
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,679
Speaker 2: was head overheels, you know. Even though these are you know,

494
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 2: communal spaces where there's maybe one hundred guys watching a

495
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: single performance, Grant was able to feel like he was

496
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 2: forging a really personal connection with Addie Sweet. And what

497
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: he did is he started spending more and more money

498
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 2: in this sort of camming ecosystem to the point where,

499
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 2: you know, if you spend enough money in this system,

500
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: you're able to have one on one conversations with the

501
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: camp performer. So him and Addie Sweet, whose real name

502
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 2: he later found out was Sylvie, started spending huge amounts

503
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 2: of time on the phone together. He got her personal numbers,

504
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 2: so they were texting all day. What's this is called,

505
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,040
Speaker 2: you know in the sex work industry, is the girlfriend experience.

506
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: This person will sort of performed the emotional role of

507
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: being your girlfriend. Well, of course, never meeting with you

508
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: in person, you get to feel like you have a girlfriend.

509
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: And while I think the vast majority of people on

510
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 2: these camming sites understand that this is fantasy play, that

511
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 2: this has cause play. Of course, if you're paying someone

512
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,880
Speaker 2: to be your girlfriend, they're not your girlfriend. It's after all,

513
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 2: not called the girlfriend. It's called the girlfriend experience, right,

514
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 2: This is all a mediated fantasy, and the rules of

515
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 2: the game are were still clear. I was looking for

516
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: sort of any kind of academic literature about camming that

517
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 2: I could read to sort of educate myself to feel

518
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: like I wasn't coming in It's a total neophyight, when

519
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 2: I eventually interviewed these cam workers and so that I

520
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: wasn't just sort of getting the perspective of online users.

521
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: So I wanted to find some kind of expert who

522
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: had done the heavy lifting and the heavy thinking that

523
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: I couldn't do on my own. And I found doctor

524
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 2: Angela Jones, who was a professor at SUNNI. She had

525
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 2: written a book called Camming, which was the only serious

526
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,719
Speaker 2: academic work I could find about the camming industry, and

527
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: it was sort of became the bible of our show.

528
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: I had everyone working on the series read the book,

529
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 2: and it provided a lens and a language and a

530
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,600
Speaker 2: system of empathy and sympathy for understanding this world that

531
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 2: was totally out of reach for us as non experts.

532
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: And I thought that doctor Jones made some really excellent points.

533
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 1: One of the things that I think is interesting about

534
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: this world that I think you showed both sides of

535
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 1: is On the one hand, Grant talked about what he

536
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: felt like was the manipulation of the world, which is

537
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: literally like a ranking system if I understood him, of

538
00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: the amount of money that these men would pay Sylvie

539
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: and then of course, you know, she would be effusive

540
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 1: for the top men who happened to be Grant.

541
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 2: You know, I think a really perfect word for this

542
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,719
Speaker 2: story is gamified. You know, the Camming ecosystem is gamified,

543
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 2: so you get points by how much you tip, and

544
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 2: there's a leaderboard for who's scoring the most points and inevitably,

545
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 2: all the men in these rooms are competing for who

546
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 2: can be the leader, who can win the game. It

547
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: looks like a video game, It feels like a video game.

548
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,199
Speaker 2: It sounds like video games with all the you know,

549
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 2: the digital sound effects and the icons and the badges,

550
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: and it's just very much mirrors gaming culture down to

551
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: a t and Grant, whose social status had I don't

552
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 2: want to say had been stripped of him, but who

553
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: had sort of set his social status on fire in

554
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 2: his real life, all of a sudden found this world

555
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:56,919
Speaker 2: where he could be a top dog again, and he

556
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: could kind of get that swagger back, and he could

557
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 2: kind of be thea that he wasn't able to be

558
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 2: in real life. And the way to do that was

559
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: by spending as much money as possible to become the

560
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: top of the leader board and ultimately become, you know,

561
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 2: the main receptacle of Sylvie's attention. So what he started

562
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 2: doing was burning through his life savings, spending more and

563
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: more money every single night, every single performance. Tipping is

564
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 2: he set a little bell jingles inside the room and

565
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 2: everybody looks at you like you're some special guy. He basically,

566
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: you know, he felt like a celebrity in this room.

567
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: And when he burned through his own savings, this is

568
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 2: where you know it took a turn that he was

569
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 2: ultimately not able to get out of. Randt started spending

570
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: his family's money. He started stealing credit cards, he started

571
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 2: taking out loans and other people's names. He started, I

572
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 2: believe he was even able to mortgage the to mortgage

573
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 2: the home. And what he ended up doing was stealing

574
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 2: over two hundred thousand dollars from his family and giving

575
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 2: it all to Sylvie in the course of something like

576
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 2: six months, and again in another act of I think

577
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 2: at this point we'd have to say unconditional love. His

578
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 2: parents discover all this, They discover grand subterfuge, they discover

579
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: all the theft. They confront him and they forgive him.

580
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 2: They offer to pay back all the money, They offer

581
00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: to sweep any criminal probes that might be going on

582
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: under the rug. They take him to therapy, they allow

583
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 2: him to continue living in the house, and they do

584
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: everything they can to rehabilitate their son. And sadly, what

585
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: we see in the story is that all of their

586
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 2: best efforts fail.

587
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the girlfriend experience, because this is the

588
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 1: part of the series where I was the most conflicted,

589
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: and I understand the concept. So you know, like you're

590
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: making a personal connection. Certainly, if we believe Grant, she

591
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: is drawing him in and it seems like really sharing

592
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: some personal aspects of her life. He feels like he

593
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,920
Speaker 1: can draw a line between her online persona and Sylvie,

594
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: the woman who has vulnerabilities. But do you get the

595
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: impression that this is all an act? Because you had

596
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: a cam girl in the series who has a really

597
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 1: what felt like an authentic conversation with one of her

598
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: anonymous clients on the phone, And man, I just had

599
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 1: a hard time reading what is real and what is

600
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: not with you know, some of these people, both with

601
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: the clients and with the women.

602
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's definitely this is an arena where

603
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: the lines between fantasy and reality are always blurred. You're

604
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 2: playing a role, you're talking to someone who's playing a role,

605
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 2: but inevitably the real use sneaks out through the cracks,

606
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: and there always is some kind of authentic emotional transaction

607
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 2: where you're chit chatting about what she did that day,

608
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: which you watched on TV last night. How annoying it

609
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: is to sit in traffic when you're just trying to

610
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 2: get groceries. You know. Real life inevitably insinuates itself in

611
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: all these relationships, but there is this underlying, like heartbeat

612
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: of capitalism pulsing through all of these interactions where money

613
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: is being exchanged, money is being asked for. Though, as

614
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: Grant says point blank in the series, Sylvia or asked

615
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: him to spend money on her, he did all of

616
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: it on his own. You know, something that doctor Jones says,

617
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this made it in the series,

618
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 2: is like, look, if you want a girlfriend, if you

619
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: want a relationship, there are websites for that. You can

620
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 2: go on Tinder, or you can go on Hinge. When

621
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 2: you go onto one of these camping platforms, you're very

622
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: much entering the world of a game. And the vast

623
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 2: majority of people understand this. It's rare that someone completely

624
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: loses perspective on real life and where the roles begin

625
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: and end, and develops this kind of obsession that being upset.

626
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 2: Of course, it does happen, and people who work in

627
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: this industry know the signs, they know what to look for,

628
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: and we are told they're very quick to cut off

629
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: people when they feel that it's becoming completely psychologically destructive

630
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 2: to enter into one of these sort of like almost

631
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: like a cause play relationship. The way Grant tells the story,

632
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: he was spending something like eight or ten hours a

633
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 2: day texting or talking to Sylvie or watching her performances.

634
00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: They certainly got very close, but again Grant was lying

635
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: to Sylvie, probably a lot more than she was manufacturing

636
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: an identity herself. He told Sylvie that he was a

637
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: millionaire doctor who drove a BMW and lived in his

638
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: own house. He sold Sylvie the fantasy life that he

639
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: thought he deserved, all the things he thought him and

640
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: Cody were sort of set up to earn on their

641
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 2: own and that he had destroyed. He told Sylvia that

642
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: he had achieved all those things. So from Sylvie's point

643
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: of view, I can imagine that it is somewhat flattering

644
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 2: to have a wealthy American doctor who's obsessed with you

645
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: and spending all of his money on you, And of

646
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: course that must be somewhat intriguing. I would never try

647
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 2: to intinunate that she had any sort of romantic feelings

648
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: for him, but it probably wasn't so horrible to get

649
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 2: on the phone and in chit chat with this successful

650
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 2: man who's obsessed with you every day. Grant is educated,

651
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: he's intelligent. I'm the same is true for Sylvie, and

652
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: I think it's quite believable that they could have, you know, stimulating,

653
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: friendly conversations with each other, and they very likely did.

654
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 2: But of course, you know, Grant again refused to acknowledge

655
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: the boundaries of this world, and there are very clear

656
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: boundaries psychological boundaries about what is real, what is love,

657
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,960
Speaker 2: what is not true. As some of the men, some

658
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 2: of the other men in the group were also like

659
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: Sylvie's super fans told me, you know, this is like

660
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: a strip club. It's a place that I come to

661
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 2: after work to let off a little steam. Of course,

662
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 2: it's erotic, and you know, I'm stimulating that part of

663
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 2: my life. Of course I do like chit chatting with

664
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: the girls. But you know, just as sort of pathetic

665
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: and misguided and sad it is when you know a

666
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,840
Speaker 2: man thinks that to use their language, you know, the

667
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 2: strippers falling in love with them. That's exactly what they

668
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: saw happening with Grant. These were all, you know, functional

669
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: adults who had the money again to spend. They'd become

670
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: these big tippers to enter this sort of like rarefied

671
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 2: class of of top tippers, but they absolutely understood where

672
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: the lines were and they had never seen someone spin

673
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: out of control the way Grant did so, which I think,

674
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 2: you know, further establishes how taboo his behavior was, and

675
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 2: that well, certainly, you know, the camming world, there is

676
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: a world designed to get users to spend money, just

677
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: like a casino or a Walmart. It's not quite as

678
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: predatory as it was made to seem during the trial.

679
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: I had wondered that that was the point I wanted

680
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: to bring up, is after these murders happened, this story,

681
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: as lured as it could be made in the media,

682
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 1: becomes fodder for sort of like late night talk shows,

683
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: I mean, every media you can think of, and it

684
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 1: always goes back to this guy killed his parents and

685
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: his brother over this beautiful international camgirl, and we now

686
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: know it was so much more complex. And also Sylvie

687
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: is not responsible for what this man did to his family.

688
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: I had wondered what the reaction was from the camgirl community.

689
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: Have you had any reaction or at least for the

690
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: people who appeared in your show.

691
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 2: So the cam models that we spoke to in our show,

692
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: I'll work for a studio called Models for Models in Romania.

693
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: It is run by former cam models, run for former

694
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: cam models. It's an all female staff. It's very nurturing,

695
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: protective environment from what we were able to see. They

696
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: pay their taxes, they're above board, they advertised on the radio,

697
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 2: their address is publicized. It was a very normal workplace

698
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways. They were totally unaware of

699
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: this case, even though you know, they were performing within,

700
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: you know, just a couple hundred miles of where Sylvie was.

701
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 2: And I think ultimately where this case really got a

702
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 2: football in the public imagination was in the true crime internet.

703
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: You saw these sort of explosively popular YouTube videos and

704
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: Twitch streams, and it was, you know, this sort of

705
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: species of internet culture that I was sort of unfamiliar with,

706
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: where there's I think there's a Grand Model YouTube video

707
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 2: where a woman does a makeup tutorial while explaining every

708
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: detail of the case, and I think I believe this

709
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: one had something like thirteen million view And it was

710
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 2: really this community that latched on to the story and

711
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 2: that sort of invested it with you know, conspiracy theories

712
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 2: and pop psychological analysis and stuff like that. But outside

713
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 2: of you know, Grant's you know community of you know,

714
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: basically the fifty mile radius of Orlando where he grew up,

715
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: the case didn't have a lot of national attention on him.

716
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: I felt like when Grant really jumped the shark was

717
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: when he made that video meant for Cody before the murders.

718
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,720
Speaker 1: And of course when he starts the video, I'm thinking,

719
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: this is what he's leaving behind after he dies by suicide,

720
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 1: which was not the case. It was a I need

721
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars to go meet this cam model and

722
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: you need to give it to me, Cody. That felt

723
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 1: like a big switch to me. Do you think that

724
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: that was really the beginning of Grant thinking I'm going

725
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: to go down the road and I can't get off

726
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 1: this road, and it's going to end with the murders

727
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: of my family.

728
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 2: Well, Grant told us is that when he first started

729
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: hatching this plan to commit this, you know, absolutely horrifying

730
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 2: triple homicide, was in therapy. His family had sent him

731
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 2: to sort of a rehab clinic to get over his

732
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 2: to the internet, to get over his addiction to this woman,

733
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 2: to sort of hopefully start to allay his self destructive behavior,

734
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: and it was the indignity of being sent to a

735
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 2: rehabilitation clinic with, as he described, scummy drug addicts. Again,

736
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: this sort of absolute loss of social status that he

737
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: saw as his birthright, this level of shame and indignity,

738
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 2: was something that Grant couldn't stand, and it was in

739
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: that facility that Grant started to hatch the plan that

740
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 2: was a few weeks after he filmed these incredibly disturbing

741
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 2: videos dedicated to his family begging them for I think

742
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars so that he could go visit Sylvia

743
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: in Europe and see if she really did love him

744
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 2: or not. As you can imagine, his parents and his

745
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: brother were immediately Saint Grant, this is a fantasy world.

746
00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: She doesn't love you, she's not even pretending to love you.

747
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 2: You're paying her for a girlfriend experience. You can't blame

748
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,359
Speaker 2: this woman. The Amados never blamed Sylvie. Chad actually wrote

749
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: her a letter sort of absolving her of guilt. They

750
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 2: just begged her to off her relationship with him and

751
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: to stop taking his money or to stop receiving his

752
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: money because it wasn't actually his. But yet in these

753
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 2: videos that Grant recorded sort of begging his parents for

754
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: the funds to go start a life in Europe with Sylvie.

755
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:16,840
Speaker 2: We could see that he's totally lost touch with reality.

756
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: He's pale, his face is drawn. He's speaking like he's

757
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 2: in the midst of some international espionage plot, using all

758
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: this James Bond type language about how his secrets need

759
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: to be protected and the mission needs to be completed

760
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: and the plan needs to be enacted, And you see

761
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: a man who's completely lost touch with reality. But I

762
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,760
Speaker 2: don't know if we're necessarily looking at a man ready

763
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 2: to commit a triple homicide at that point in those videos.

764
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 2: It wasn't until, like I said, the final indignation of

765
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: having to talk to a professional therapist about his fantasies,

766
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 2: that Grant really could no longer take his fall from grace,

767
00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: could no longer stomach what he had become, could no

768
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,359
Speaker 2: longer really look in the mirror. And as someone on

769
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: my team put it, this was a man, you know

770
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,839
Speaker 2: who really just couldn't withstand his own shame, couldn't deal

771
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 2: with what he had become, and had to destroy everybody

772
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 2: who was casting judgment on him, which again, his world

773
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 2: was so small. There were only three people Grant really knew.

774
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: Grant really spent time with, Grant shared his life with,

775
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: And if his life had been destroyed, then those three

776
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,720
Speaker 2: people who constituted his life had to be destroyed as well.

777
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: Take me through that experience. Tell me about the crime,

778
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: what happened.

779
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: What we know about the crime is that Grant killed

780
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: his three family members with four bullets. It was very calculated,

781
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: it was very precise. Grant and his brother had an

782
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: enormous amount of experience with guns. They went to shooting

783
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: ranges all the time. They had many many guns in

784
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 2: the house. They played airsoft, which is sort of this

785
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: like militarized paintball game with all of their friends. And

786
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 2: he was a weapons expert. And what he did is

787
00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: he came down one afternoon while everyone was at work.

788
00:38:57,640 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 2: His mother worked at home, so it was just Grant

789
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: and his mom at home. His mom was on the

790
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 2: computer playing Candy Crush. Grant snuck up behind her and

791
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,120
Speaker 2: shot her in the back of the head. He then

792
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: waited for his father to get home. His father came

793
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,240
Speaker 2: in through the kitchen. He walked in said hey Dad.

794
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,439
Speaker 2: When his dad turned around, he shot his father once

795
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,479
Speaker 2: failed to kill his father with that shot. His father

796
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: struggled for a bit and then Grant shot him one

797
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 2: final time, killing him. Then he got on the phone

798
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,360
Speaker 2: with his brother. We're not sure what happened in this

799
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: phone call, but Grant somehow enticed his brother to leave

800
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 2: work and come home. This is what we know from

801
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: Cody's co workers. He got some kind of call, seemed

802
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 2: very distressed, and left work, which is not something Cody

803
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 2: was likely to do. He was a very committed and

804
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: regimented professional. Him leaving work in the middle of a

805
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 2: ship was unheard of. Cody comes home, takes one step

806
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 2: through the garage, Grant is waiting there on the side

807
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: of the wall, and kills Cody with one shot the

808
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 2: moment he walks in. Grant then spends hours at home

809
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 2: with the corpses of his family, organizing hard drives, trying

810
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: to get into his family member's bank accounts, making sure

811
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 2: that he has the entire archive of Sylvie videos, and

812
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 2: eventually leaving the home in the middle of the night,

813
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,360
Speaker 2: going to a supermarket parking lot and logging onto Sylvie's

814
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 2: website so that he can watch a performance and spend

815
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: another night tipping her and being you know, being a

816
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: big dog in the winner's circle. He then goes to

817
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: a job interview the next morning, performs decently well at

818
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: this job interview, and is arrested at a hotel the

819
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: next day and he's taken in for questioning. He's very timid,

820
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: he's docile, he's in scrubs, and he gives I think.

821
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 2: Over the course of a six hour interrogation, he speaks

822
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,320
Speaker 2: very placidly about his love of anime, his love of

823
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: video games, his love of weapons, his love of Sylvie.

824
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,080
Speaker 2: He narrates the downfall that he had experienced, and this

825
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 2: very shocking short of crescendo to the interrogation. Grant is

826
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 2: presented with the photographs of his dead family members and asked,

827
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 2: did you leave the house with your family like this?

828
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 2: Grant breaks down in tears and immediately says no. He

829
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 2: holds his ground, claims his innocence, says he didn't do

830
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 2: anything like this. Went to trial claiming his innocence, saying

831
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 2: he never did anything like this, received a life sentence,

832
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: went behind bars claiming he was innocent. Spent months and

833
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 2: months on the phone with me, claiming his innocence, saying

834
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: he never did this. No one ever believed it. I

835
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: never believed it. He didn't have a credible theory of

836
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,000
Speaker 2: what had actually happened that night. And then he took

837
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 2: his case to appeal. The Department of Justice in Florida

838
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 2: denied his appeal, and once it became clear that Grant

839
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 2: was going to be behind bars for the rest of

840
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: his life with no chance of parole, that is when

841
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: he decided to tell me the truth. That is when

842
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: he confessed to me that he had committed these murders.

843
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: He told me what happened that night, and then all

844
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 2: of a sudden, I was kind of treated to like

845
00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 2: the real Grant, you know, the mask had fined cracked off,

846
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: and I was able to talk with the real grand

847
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 2: someone that he had in part been hiding from me

848
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: all these years, on the phone. And what we saw

849
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,760
Speaker 2: was all this sort of egomania, these recriminations, the pathology

850
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,920
Speaker 2: of thinking that he was better than everybody else and

851
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: that he deserved the world on a platter. All of

852
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: that really came to the foreground in a very unguarded

853
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 2: and shocking way once Grant's appeal was denied. And that

854
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 2: is the Grant that we introduced audiences to in the

855
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: third and final episode, and that is the Grant that

856
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 2: I hope audiences remember when they think back on this project.

857
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: I will say it's pretty disgusting. His smirk just transforms

858
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 1: I think, his whole personality, like you said in that

859
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 1: last episode, and it pops up a couple of different times.

860
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: I think, tell me about the little bit of a

861
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: wild goose chase that he sent you and then it

862
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: sounds like quite a few police officers on which ends

863
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: up with that damn smirk.

864
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the weak points in the prosecution's case

865
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: is that there was no more weapon. They couldn't find

866
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 2: the gun that had actually killed the Amatos, which was

867
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: a glaring hole in their case. It made it seem

868
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: like for a long time that Grant could actually be

869
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 2: found innocent and walk away from this trial of freeman.

870
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 2: Like I said, once it's appeal was denied and Grant

871
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 2: finally confessed to me, I asked him right away. I

872
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 2: was like, Grant, where's the murder weapon? And he said, oh, well,

873
00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 2: I actually, after I killed my family, I went back

874
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: to one of my friend's houses and I buried it

875
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: in his backyard, which seemed strange, as many of the

876
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: lawyers said the second I told this theory to the lawyers,

877
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 2: they jumped on it right away. It was like, this

878
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 2: doesn't sound credible, this sounds bizarre. Wouldn't there be evidence

879
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 2: of digging. Why wouldn't he just throw it in a lake.

880
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: There's a million lakes around here. Why would he do this? Nevertheless,

881
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: Grant held tutor that story. I felt legally obligated to

882
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: tell the sheriffs that I had been told this information

883
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: that there could potentially be a murder weapon buried in

884
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 2: this backyard somewhere out in Florida. I had to give them,

885
00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:53,360
Speaker 2: you know, some sworn testimony, and they allowed us to

886
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 2: film them digging for this, this murder weapon in the backyard,

887
00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 2: and they didn't find it. Grant, of course, had a

888
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:01,720
Speaker 2: theory that, you know, he had buried it under a tree,

889
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 2: and in the years intervening between when he was arrested

890
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 2: and when we went to dig it up, those trees

891
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 2: had been removed, and maybe the landscapers had sort of

892
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 2: excavated the gun and just thrown it away in a

893
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: landfill somewhere. But you know, the story wasn't quite convincing,

894
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 2: and at that point, I think we saw that Grant

895
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: was you know, a manipulator, a narcissist, someone who was

896
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: enjoying this cat and mouse game that he was now

897
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: playing with me. And that was sort of the conclusion

898
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,240
Speaker 2: that we all drew from this event. You know that

899
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: here's another lie, another manipulation, another desperate grasp for attention,

900
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: and also, I think, frankly, another desperate attempt on his

901
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: part to attack his friend. You know, the man who

902
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: Grant said had the gun buried in his backyard was

903
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,760
Speaker 2: another innocent bystander, another victim of this crime, and another

904
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: victim of Grant's you know, machinations.

905
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,280
Speaker 1: And I think, to your credit, that last episode really

906
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: does put so much separation between Grant, this love sick puppy,

907
00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, who was so desperate to be with this

908
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: cam model that he killed his parents and his brother

909
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: for the money and they were pressuring him to stop

910
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: and all of that, and this manipulative woman. And now

911
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 1: the reality of it is, you know, I wonder if

912
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 1: this would have happened in some way, shape or form,

913
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: whether he had met Sylvie or gotten into that world

914
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: or not, just because he seems so much more authentic

915
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: now after this mask is pulled off. It just seems

916
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: like inevitable that something bad was going to happen. But

917
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 1: as I was starting to say, now, to your credit,

918
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: there's so much space now between I think, you know,

919
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 1: Sylvie was an excuse and the cam model world was

920
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: an excuse that now is not very legitimate.

921
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. I think that's you know,

922
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: grantstonfatuation with Sylvie was a symptom. It wasn't the disease,

923
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: and it's very important to distinguish between the two. I

924
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 2: think without Sylvie there still would have been a tragedy

925
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,799
Speaker 2: in this family. And I think that, you know, even

926
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: if Grant's life had gone exactly how he wanted it

927
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: to and he had achieved all of this success, I

928
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 2: think he still would have hurt the people in his

929
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: life in some sort of savage way. It might not

930
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 2: have been this unbelievably tragic, violent outburst, but I think

931
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 2: this man has serious mental health problems and he was

932
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,080
Speaker 2: going to hurt the people in his life in one

933
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: way or another. Sylvie was in, you know, sort of

934
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: the wrong place at the wrong time and became this

935
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: object of fascination for Grant. But I don't think she

936
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,319
Speaker 2: twisted his mind or his motivations or preyed on his

937
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 2: emotions in any sort of unusual way whatsoever. There are

938
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: millions of people engaged in these kind of relationships around

939
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: the world. They don't end in violence. What was that

940
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,719
Speaker 2: work here? With something a lot more complicated, a lot

941
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 2: more human, a lot more idiosyncratic to Grant's own, you know,

942
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 2: particular psychology and emotional makeup.

943
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 1: You hire an investigator, translator, investigator to try to find her,

944
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: and when ultimately this investigator tracks her down, Sylvie sounds

945
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: like another victim to me. I mean, she is scared, senseless,

946
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,080
Speaker 1: and I'm sure if she were to pick someone to

947
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: speak with it would be your crew, just because you

948
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: have done such an in depth job. But she seems

949
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: frightened and of course not trusting Grant and feeling betrayed

950
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: in all sorts of things, but mostly frightened.

951
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. I absolutely consider Sylvie to be one of the

952
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 2: victims of this crime. I told her so in many letters.

953
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 2: She you know, as doctor Jones says in our series,

954
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: she was just doing her job and this terrible thing happened.

955
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 2: When we speak to where she absolutely sounds scared. She

956
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 2: says that she had to go to therapy to recover

957
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 2: from this event. That has taken a lot of work

958
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: for her to get back on her feet, but that

959
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 2: luckily she has. She's still working, she's still successful. And

960
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: I think very telling is that she's never in this

961
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:53,879
Speaker 2: conversation we have from her, she never says Grant's name,

962
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: she never says, you know, the term the murder or

963
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 2: the crime. She just says this thing. It's still something

964
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: that she can't speak. It's still something that clearly is

965
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: a weight on her. And again, it's just another crystal

966
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 2: clear portrait of and I hate to use this language,

967
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 2: but how effective this crime was. Grant destroyed so many people,

968
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 2: He destroyed so many lives, and the legacy of his

969
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 2: actions still live on. It's not over, and it will

970
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 2: not be over for anyone who lived through this.

971
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to bring this up, but this

972
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 1: man has gotten a tremendous amount of attention from women.

973
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: I never understand it. I don't need to understand it,

974
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: but he claims, and I'm sure it's true, that he

975
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: has gotten just hundreds of solicitations from women who want

976
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: to communicate with him. And kind of grossly he explains

977
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: how he knows when someone is authentic and is an

978
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: authentic and how he can now be picky. It is

979
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: clear that Grant A. Motto is getting more attention now

980
00:48:55,719 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: than he ever has in his entire life, and is

981
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: kind of getting what he wants in an odd way.

982
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 2: I think that's true, and that is an inevitable byproduct

983
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:06,919
Speaker 2: of this project is that Grant is going to get

984
00:49:06,920 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 2: some attention, and it's going to be, you know, attention

985
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 2: from people who are likely not doing very well themselves.

986
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 2: What I hope is that this project once and for

987
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 2: all dispels the idea of Grant potentially being innocent, which

988
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 2: was still you know, in the public record that he

989
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: was claiming his innocence until I was able to extract

990
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: this confession for him. It's now a matter of public

991
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 2: and permanent record that Granted Motto did commit these murders,

992
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: has confessed to these murders, and I think, as we

993
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: expressed in the final the final minutes of the series,

994
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,760
Speaker 2: experience is almost no remorse. So I think the idea

995
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,680
Speaker 2: of him being a and this is language that I

996
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:43,719
Speaker 2: got from speaking to some of these women who reach

997
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 2: out to these convicted murderers, is this is not you know,

998
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: a poor, broken boy, a victim of a modern society

999
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 2: who didn't understand his vulnerability. This was a cold, calculated,

1000
00:49:55,800 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 2: heartless act by a very disturbed man who, as a

1001
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 2: human being deserves some sympathy, but as a rational actor

1002
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 2: and a victim of circumstance, I think deserves no sympathy whatsoever.

1003
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,560
Speaker 2: And what I'm hoping is that this actually dampens the

1004
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: appeal of the Grand Model story going forward.

1005
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 1: What was your last conversation like with Grant or have

1006
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 1: you had a last conversation with him yet?

1007
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 2: So I would say that we haven't had our last

1008
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 2: conversation without giving away too many details. Grant and I

1009
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: were able to communicate with a contraband cell phone that

1010
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 2: he was able to smuggle into prison. Oh, we were

1011
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 2: able to text fairly regularly, and he always had read receipts,

1012
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,839
Speaker 2: so I would know when he received my messages. As

1013
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 2: far as I know, Grant hasn't received any of my

1014
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: messages since Thanksgiving. We're recording this in April, so it's

1015
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 2: been about four months since I was able to communicate

1016
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 2: with Grant. I think it's very likely that Grant is

1017
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 2: being punished for this series coming out, being punished for

1018
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 2: communicating with a journalist without the prison's intervention, and is

1019
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 2: very likely in solitary confinement right now. This is a

1020
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: risk that Grant knew he was taking. He kind of

1021
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 2: saw it as sort of the inevitable consequence of him

1022
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: pt disicipating in the story is that he would have

1023
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,600
Speaker 2: his phone confiscated, he would be punished by the guards,

1024
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 2: and he'd be thrown in solitary And it appears that

1025
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,479
Speaker 2: that's what's happening right now, though of course I don't

1026
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 2: know for sure. But what I can tell you is

1027
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,800
Speaker 2: that Grant has not communicated with me since I finished

1028
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: the show in November. As far as I know, he

1029
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: hasn't seen the show and might not be able to

1030
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:21,799
Speaker 2: get his hands on any kind of technology for a

1031
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 2: long time, which could be a good thing.

1032
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 1: What would be the purpose for you to keep communicating

1033
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,680
Speaker 1: with him once the show is out? Is there another

1034
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 1: step after this?

1035
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 2: I feel that I owe Grant sort of the respect

1036
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:36,879
Speaker 2: of staying in touch with him. You know, he did

1037
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: share his story with me. We spent a long time

1038
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 2: getting to know each other. That being said, I always

1039
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: had to create, you know, a very firm wall between us.

1040
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 2: This could never be a friendship or a therapeutic relationship

1041
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: for him, And certainly that was something that Grant wanted.

1042
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 2: You know, he's in prison for life, and he needs partnership,

1043
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:58,839
Speaker 2: and he needs sympathy, and he needs people to listen

1044
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,359
Speaker 2: to him. And once I realized that he was sort

1045
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: of developing this kind of attachment to me into our calls,

1046
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 2: I had to pull back a little bit and make

1047
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 2: sure that Grant didn't view me as a friend. That

1048
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 2: being said, I do feel that I owe him staying

1049
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 2: in touch. I'm curious to hear what he has to

1050
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,279
Speaker 2: say about the show, But yeah, I certainly don't feel

1051
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 2: that Grant deserves my sympathy or my empathy any more

1052
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 2: than he's already received it.

1053
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: I'm just so curious about why did they not pursue

1054
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: the death penalty in this case. I am not going

1055
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: to talk about my politics around the death penalty, but

1056
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 1: we're in Florida. You would think that with a triple

1057
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,800
Speaker 1: murder that would be the first thing on their minds.

1058
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 2: Well, it was certainly on the table. And the reason

1059
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,879
Speaker 2: that Grant did not get the death penalty is that

1060
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 2: his one surviving brother, this was a half brother of

1061
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 2: his who had moved out of the house, was much

1062
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 2: older than Grant, sort of isolated from the family, but

1063
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: still a half brother. Nonetheless, someone who intimately knew Grant's

1064
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,640
Speaker 2: parents went on the stand and said, despite everything, despite

1065
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 2: my absolute, rock solid belief that Grant did kill my family,

1066
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 2: I still love my brother, And that statement saved Grant's life,

1067
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: and again is yet another piece of evidence of the

1068
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: unconditional love and support that Grant received from his family

1069
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 2: every step down the rabbit hole.

1070
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: Did other family members say something similar or was there

1071
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: anybody else there to represent Chad and Margaret?

1072
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: No one else took the stand to defend Grant or

1073
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 2: to talk about the impact that this murder had had

1074
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 2: on the family. I think the Amatos were estranged from

1075
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: certain parts of their family. They were very isolated family.

1076
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: I think they all kind of just went to work

1077
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 2: and then went home and spent all of their free

1078
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,359
Speaker 2: time at home together. So there were not a lot

1079
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 2: of people who had insight into what these tumultuous last

1080
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,839
Speaker 2: six months of the Amado's lives were like. I think

1081
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 2: Margaret was upfront about the fact that she was going

1082
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 2: through family problems and she was distressed, but no one

1083
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 2: really knew what the nature of them was, and I

1084
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 2: think certainly everybody was disgusted with Grant. Everyone was completely

1085
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 2: convinced of his guilt and didn't feel like they needed

1086
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 2: to take the stand in order to put this man

1087
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 2: behind bars.

1088
00:54:01,440 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about what your feelings are

1089
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 1: with that fem fatale storyline, the manipulated man, poor man

1090
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 1: who has fallen into the web of this woman who

1091
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: is specifically targeting him to kind of play with his emotions.

1092
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 2: I think it plays into the fantasy here that you know,

1093
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 2: men are not responsible for their own sexual impulses. It's

1094
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: something hardwired into them. They can't be taken to task

1095
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 2: for acting on these impulses, which obviously serves a patriarchy

1096
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,800
Speaker 2: in you know, completely transparent ways. It puts a target

1097
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 2: on the backs of any women with sexual agency, any

1098
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,839
Speaker 2: women who want to explore their sexual capital, who want

1099
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: to spend their sexual capital in the open marketplace. And

1100
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: what it does is it I think it's a way

1101
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 2: of you know, subjugating women. You know, you have the

1102
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 2: responsibility of not praying on men's sexuality, Whereas I think

1103
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 2: we all know that time and again, what most often

1104
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: happens is that women are the victims of male sexuality,

1105
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 2: and I think that's exactly what we're seeing in this

1106
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: case here, where Sylvie ends up becoming the victim of

1107
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 2: Brandon Motto, just like so many other people in this story.

1108
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,560
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1109
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1110
00:55:22,600 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are

1111
00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1112
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,360
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1113
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1114
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

1115
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1116
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

1117
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1118
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at tenfold More

1119
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: Wicked and on Facebook look at Wicked Words Pod