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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Blocks podcast.

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Speaker 3: I'm Joe whysn't Thal and I'm Tracy Alloway.

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Speaker 2: Tracy, we like to talk about snacks and drinks and

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Speaker 2: stuff on the show, and you know, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: just how that we're interested, But I actually think that,

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Speaker 2: like there's like a deeper fundamental reason by why we

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Speaker 2: keep coming around to this topic.

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Speaker 3: Wait, it's not just because we like snacks.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that is the deep, deep, deep reason. But

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Speaker 2: the other reason is, Ah, I kind of think I've

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Speaker 2: been thinking about this lately that like the proliferation of

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Speaker 2: different types of snack foods and beverages and energy drinks

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Speaker 2: which multiply like crazy and store aisles. It's like the

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Speaker 2: ultimate story of like capitalist success and like the consumer

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Speaker 2: economy that we just keep getting this like endless permutations

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Speaker 2: of like great flavors in different ways to consume these flavors.

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Speaker 2: It's like the pinnacle of the consumption economy.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I would say, I guess capitalism, Well, capitalism

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Speaker 3: has to have some upsides, and I guess a loaded

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Speaker 3: flavored Cheetos are one of them. That's fair I do

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Speaker 3: think what's interesting to me about this moment in snacks

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Speaker 3: is there seems to be sort of two things going on,

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Speaker 3: like two mega trends, the very early beginnings of two

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Speaker 3: mega trends. So one is the idea of what's going

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Speaker 3: to happen to snack food in a GLP one fueled world.

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Speaker 3: And we touched on this a little bit last year

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Speaker 3: when we spoke to James van Kielin and he was

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Speaker 3: talking about his ozembic and GLP one investment thesis. And

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Speaker 3: I really like speaking to him because it wasn't just

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Speaker 3: like all the companies that are making these drugs are

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Speaker 3: going to see their share prices absolutely surge. It was

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Speaker 3: also there are going to be these second order knock

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Speaker 3: on effects on some consumer companies. And you could see

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Speaker 3: that playing out a little bit last year. You can

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Speaker 3: certainly see it playing out now. I think almost every major,

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Speaker 3: you know, food and beverage company that reported in the

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Speaker 3: most recent quarter had AGLP one or ozembic related question.

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Speaker 3: And then I guess the other mega trend is just

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Speaker 3: this idea of companies having to become more and more

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Speaker 3: creative to also drive consumption. So you have to have

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Speaker 3: more flavors in order to grow your market share, to

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Speaker 3: keep people engaged and interested and posting pictures of your

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Speaker 3: food on TikTok or Instagram.

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Speaker 2: Or whatever totally, and you just see this play out.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. This is why I go back, you know,

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Speaker 2: I think about those sort of famous or infamous and

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Speaker 2: maybe apocryphal things where it's like some Soviet leader came

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Speaker 2: to the US, it's a grocery store. It's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: capitalism is the answer. Maybe there was something, but it

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Speaker 2: really does feel like we're sort of at this moment

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Speaker 2: where these maybe almost two mega trends are in competition

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Speaker 2: with each other, right because there is this seemingly race

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Speaker 2: to provide more flavor and more variety and more versions

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Speaker 2: and special versions and stuff like that, and then the

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Speaker 2: sort of looming threat to the sort of traditional way

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Speaker 2: of doing business from the GLP ones Lego Zembic. So

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Speaker 2: there is never too much snack food and there's never

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Speaker 2: too much conversation about snack food.

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Speaker 3: Well, the other thing that I just remembered, I totally

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Speaker 3: agree you can never have enough snack food. But the

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Speaker 3: other thing was the conversation we had with Ryan Harlan

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Speaker 3: where he was talking about the technology that's now going

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Speaker 3: into producing these snack foods, and also AI nowadays. So

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Speaker 3: this idea that you can basically model a virtual manufacturing

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Speaker 3: line for a new flavor, you can use AI maybe

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Speaker 3: to come up with new flavors. So it seems like

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Speaker 3: all of foods is getting more sophisticated. And some of

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Speaker 3: it is, of course in response to good old fashioned

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Speaker 3: consumer demand give the customer what they want. But part

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Speaker 3: of it, also, I have to think, might be in

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Speaker 3: response to competition from GLP one and ozepic and the

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Speaker 3: idea that well, if we're going to eat less food overall,

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Speaker 3: then maybe the way to keep customers is to make

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Speaker 3: sure that food is really really interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah good, I'm glad you brought up the Ryan Harlan

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Speaker 2: episode because right that was about the sort of supply

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Speaker 2: side innovations that allow companies like say A for you

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Speaker 2: Delay to try more limited run lines and move things

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Speaker 2: faster and get a you know, you have a theoretical

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Speaker 2: test flavor, you can make a chip faster anyway. So

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Speaker 2: that raises the question where does the flavor come in

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Speaker 2: the first place. When there is a new chili lime

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Speaker 2: or a new Durian flavored.

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Speaker 3: Sto, are we going to Flavortown?

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Speaker 2: We're going to say we're going to We're going to

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Speaker 2: flavor Toown. I hadn't thought we're not. Who's the chef

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Speaker 2: that we're not talking to that chef? Well, we do

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Speaker 2: have the perfect guest because it's someone who is in

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Speaker 2: the business of great flavors. We're going to be speaking

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Speaker 2: with Barb Stucky. She's the chief innovation and marketing officer

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Speaker 2: at Madsen, which is a Silicon Valley based food and

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Speaker 2: beverage innovation company. She has written a lot about what

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Speaker 2: makes great flavors, and she has studied a lot about

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Speaker 2: this moment in flavor history. So, Barb, thank you so

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Speaker 2: much for coming on outlaws.

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Speaker 4: Well, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: What do you do the chief innovation and marketing officer

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Speaker 2: at Madson? What do you do in the flavor world?

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Speaker 4: Oh? What don't we do in the big flavor world?

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Speaker 4: So the company's been around for about forty seven years,

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Speaker 4: and over the course of those decades, we have worked

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Speaker 4: in pretty much every food and beverage category that exists,

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Speaker 4: with the exception maybe a beer okay, but we work

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Speaker 4: on everything from baby food to alcoholic beverages to frozen

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Speaker 4: trace to confections, to dietary supplements. And we also do

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Speaker 4: work in the restaurant channel, so we work mainly for

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Speaker 4: national and global restaurant chains, but we help them identify

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Speaker 4: new menu categories and new menu items. So we are

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Speaker 4: really all over one hundred percent share of stomach is

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Speaker 4: how we like to sit.

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Speaker 2: I like stomach share. I've never heard that. I've never

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Speaker 2: heard that one before, but that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: So one thing I was wondering is the basic premise

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Speaker 3: of this conversation. I mentioned gop one drugs earlier, and

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Speaker 3: this is something that has come up in various forms

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Speaker 3: on the podcast and also on various earnings calls. As

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Speaker 3: I mentioned, Is this something that's on your radar as

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Speaker 3: a chief innovation officer in the food industry.

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Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, it's very much on our radar, and I'll

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Speaker 4: tell you how this happened. So you know, we work

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Speaker 4: in food and beverage. We are not in the pharmaceutical

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Speaker 4: and so we started getting some questions from our clients,

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Speaker 4: who ranged from some of the largest global CpG companies

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Speaker 4: to small founder funded startups, and they were asking questions

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Speaker 4: about these new drugs and what's going to happen and

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Speaker 4: should I be worried about this? And this was about

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Speaker 4: middle of twenty twenty three. So in the fourth quarter

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Speaker 4: of twenty twenty three, we decided that, because of our

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Speaker 4: position in the industry where we do work across companies

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Speaker 4: and we work across categories, that we were going to

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Speaker 4: educate ourselves and we were going to make ourselves as

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Speaker 4: smart as we can about this topic, and we were

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Speaker 4: going to then put forth the learnings that we gained

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Speaker 4: and share them with the industry. So we just did

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Speaker 4: that in a webinar format. It works like this, so

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Speaker 4: we handled it as we would do a client project.

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Speaker 4: So we started reading secondary resets that was out there.

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Speaker 4: There was a great report from Morgan Stanley that enabled

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Speaker 4: some of our learnings. And then we have a consumer

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Speaker 4: panel at Matson, So these are just consumers who have

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Speaker 4: been willing to give us their feedback on new ideas

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Speaker 4: and products, and we surveyed the panel to see if

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Speaker 4: anyone in our panel was on ozembic or some of

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Speaker 4: the other medicines we call them aom's anti obesity medications,

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Speaker 4: and we found out that there was about one hundred

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Speaker 4: and twenty five people who were either on the drugs

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Speaker 4: or had been on the drugs. So all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: now we've got a patient population that we can talk

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Speaker 4: to to understand more. So we started doing that. We

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Speaker 4: put a survey in front of those consumers and got

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Speaker 4: to learn a little bit about what they were experiencing

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Speaker 4: and how things were changing for them. We also talked

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Speaker 4: to medical practitioners, so we talked to doctors, we talked

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Speaker 4: to practitioners, we talked to people who were prescribing the AOMs.

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Speaker 4: And then we did a lot of work with our

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Speaker 4: proprietary AI models to talk to AI personas to see

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Speaker 4: what was what was resonating with them, and that was

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Speaker 4: super interesting as well. And then the last thing we did,

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Speaker 4: which I can tell you more about, is we created

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Speaker 4: some new food and beverage concepts, some new ideas. They

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Speaker 4: ranged from beverages to snacks to meals, and we tested

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Speaker 4: those ideas with our patient panel of humans. I should

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Speaker 4: say we did test them with humans, not our AI,

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Speaker 4: which we can do, but we didn't do. So we

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Speaker 4: have so much data, so much to share.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with some of that before we get

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Speaker 2: to the new concepts. What did the one hundred or

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Speaker 2: so people in your panel who are on the AOMs

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Speaker 2: tell you about their experience and how changed their relationship

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Speaker 2: with food and beverages.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question. And just to clarify, our

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Speaker 4: sample size ended up being about seventy five Okay, so

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Speaker 4: seventy five those patients, so some of them dropped off.

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Speaker 4: But what we heard from patients is that most of them,

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Speaker 4: the vast majority of them, were extremely satisfied or positive

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Speaker 4: with their experience on the drugs. And this is interesting

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Speaker 4: because many of them reported having side effects. It just

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Speaker 4: goes to show that it's so hard to lose weight

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Speaker 4: through typical strategies, you know, a combination of diet and exercise.

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Speaker 4: Some of our panelists had even had previous weight loss

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Speaker 4: surgery for example, but other interventions. And they were also

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Speaker 4: just really pleased with these drugs as giving them success

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Speaker 4: that they were unable to have or unable to sustain

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Speaker 4: using other methods. So that was really interesting to us.

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Speaker 4: So it does seem that these things are these drugs

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Speaker 4: are working incredibly wealth for people, not everyone. A lot

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Speaker 4: of the side effects are continual and a small number

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Speaker 4: of people do have them, but you know, they can

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Speaker 4: be really unpleasant in terms of GI. And one of

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Speaker 4: the ways that these drugs work is that it's hormonal.

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Speaker 4: But they also happened to slow your your gastric emptying,

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Speaker 4: meaning the food stays in your stomach longer and so

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Speaker 4: you feel full longer, which also happens when you have

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Speaker 4: weight loss surgery, your stomach is actually reduced in size,

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Speaker 4: but with these drugs, it's not reduced in size, but

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Speaker 4: it feels that way because the food stays in there longer,

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Speaker 4: and so people really really cannot overeat. They told us

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Speaker 4: really horrific story of overeating and getting sick because it

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Speaker 4: was just nauseating. Also, there are problems at the other

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Speaker 4: end of the GI track two. A lot of people

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Speaker 4: reported constipation or diarrhea other things like that. So these

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Speaker 4: are not without their challenges and not without their side effects.

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Speaker 4: But for the vast majority of people, they were extremely

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Speaker 4: happy and we're losing significant amounts of weight. The other

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Speaker 4: thing is that we did notice in our survey that

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Speaker 4: a lot of people were having some pretty significant changes

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Speaker 4: in their food and beverage behavior, and that was ultimately

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Speaker 4: our goal for this study.

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Speaker 3: So what did you see in terms of food preference?

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Speaker 3: Because when I go on a diet and I restrict calories,

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Speaker 3: I usually end up this is terrible, this is not

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Speaker 3: how you should diet. But I usually end up replacing

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Speaker 3: healthy meals with like Oreo cookies, and I just eat

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Speaker 3: like three Oreo cookies instead of having a larger meal.

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Speaker 3: Does that hold out for ozembic people as well, or

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Speaker 3: people who are on ozembic and the other AOMs. Do

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Speaker 3: they still eat junk food just maybe less of it,

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Speaker 3: or do we see a change in their food preferences.

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Speaker 4: You know, it definitely depends on the person. But more

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Speaker 4: people than not did say that all of a sudden

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Speaker 4: they were not craving things like sugary sodas or salty

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Speaker 4: snacks or animal proteins. So, especially for some reason, beef,

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Speaker 4: people were really turned off by the idea of beef,

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Speaker 4: and so they were instead sort of veering in the

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Speaker 4: direction of fruits and vegetables, things that were lighter in

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Speaker 4: flavor and lighter on the stomach. So you know, they

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Speaker 4: were really trying to satisfy those cravings. We even we

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Speaker 4: did some one on one video interviews, and I remember

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Speaker 4: distinctly this one went talking about how, you know, I

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Speaker 4: used to crave chips and now I crave cucumbers and parrots,

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Speaker 4: and she said the flavor of a crisp cucumber is

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Speaker 4: just so tantalizing, And I'm thinking to myself, while tantalizing cucumber,

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Speaker 4: I mean, that is a significant change in cravings and

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Speaker 4: you know, and the resulting caloric intake. So it does

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Speaker 4: seem to be doing something akin to teaching people how

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Speaker 4: to eat healthy, which is crazy that a drug can

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Speaker 4: do this, but it's that seems to be the case

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Speaker 4: with a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty incredible. But it also has an interesting implication

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Speaker 2: because I think like sort of one cynical expectation is that, Okay,

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Speaker 2: people don't want to eat salty chips as much anymore,

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Speaker 2: so then the food industry is going to respond by, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: we're just going to put even more salt in the

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Speaker 2: chips and will make it even more tantalizing and it'll

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Speaker 2: make it even harder for people to resist. But it

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Speaker 2: sounds like from your research that that will just make

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Speaker 2: the end products even more repellent to people.

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Speaker 4: I think you're absolutely right. Yes, we heard people really

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Speaker 4: really just turning their nose up at certain foods that

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Speaker 4: they used to love and it's really odd, but I

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Speaker 4: do think that's what would happen. So, you know, a

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Speaker 4: lot of them were they were cutting from their diet

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Speaker 4: in the neighborhood of a thousand calories a day, Well,

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Speaker 4: that's crazy, Like for most people, that's half of the calories,

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Speaker 4: are a third of the calories that you're consuming. So

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Speaker 4: you know, that results in you having to make decisions

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Speaker 4: about what is going to be my calorie consumption based

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Speaker 4: on the fact that it is so much less. I'm

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Speaker 4: really to make those calories count. And so you know,

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Speaker 4: that just gets at the fact that you know, I

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Speaker 4: think you said at the beginning, like people want interesting food,

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Speaker 4: people want delicious food, in the case of the folks

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Speaker 4: that we heard from, just a lot less of it.

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Speaker 3: Well, where does that leave, say a potato chip maker,

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Speaker 3: because it seems like if people aren't craving salty food anymore,

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Speaker 3: it seems unlikely that a maker of potato chips is

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Speaker 3: going to suddenly substitute their offerings with something like cucumbers.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, you're totally right. I cannot imagine that happening. Of course,

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Speaker 4: it takes a different distribution channel and different buyers in

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Speaker 4: the grocery store and yeah, that's not going to happen.

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Speaker 4: But what you know, we're in the innovation business, and

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Speaker 4: so what you could see potentially happening is that these

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Speaker 4: makers of chips, for example, what would create portion sizes

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Speaker 4: that are much smaller. Perhaps instead of increasing the sodium,

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Speaker 4: they reduce the sodium. Perhaps they do chips that have

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Speaker 4: some vegetables blended into their tortilla chip dough something like that,

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Speaker 4: to give it a little bit more fiber, to help

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Speaker 4: with the gi stuff, to give it a little more

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Speaker 4: nutrient density. So, you know, this could be an opportunity

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Speaker 4: for the food and beverage industry to really reset things

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Speaker 4: and reset expectations. You know, if you think back to

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Speaker 4: the size of a snack bag thirty years ago, or

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Speaker 4: the size of a hamburger thirty years ago, or the

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Speaker 4: size of a bagel, you know, they were all so

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Speaker 4: much smaller. So this is an opportunity for us to

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Speaker 4: go back to those sizes as expectations and really help

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Speaker 4: the entire country eat better. I don't know if that's

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Speaker 4: going to happen. Maybe it's a little pie in the sky,

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Speaker 4: but these are the kinds of things we were trying

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Speaker 4: to educate the end a story about because there are

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Speaker 4: some new opportunities.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned coming up with some new food concepts

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Speaker 2: or flavor concepts and actually serving them to your non

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Speaker 2: AI panelists. What are you cooking up there and what

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Speaker 2: resonated with people?

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Speaker 4: Okay, well, I have twenty two products that we came

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Speaker 4: up with and tested. Not all of them scored well.

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Speaker 4: For example, the one that we created that was about

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Speaker 4: trying to tame nausea with ginger. That one bomb bomb Okay,

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Speaker 4: totally good.

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Speaker 2: To bomb early before a nationwide launch, I guess.

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Speaker 4: So, yeah, yes, that is so true that that's why

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Speaker 4: we do these kinds of us. Yeah. So essentially what

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Speaker 4: we were doing is writing these concepts for the AOM user.

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Speaker 4: So one of the top score it, we'll give you

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Speaker 4: two or three of the top scoring ideas. So one

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Speaker 4: of them was a brownie cube. So this idea was

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Speaker 4: ready to eat brownie. It's about the size of a nickel,

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Speaker 4: but in cube shape, and it's baked with extra protein added.

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Speaker 4: It's got a little bit of fiber in it from

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Speaker 4: the cocoa, and it's basically kind of a one byte indulgence.

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Speaker 4: And that really resonated. I think again, because when your

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Speaker 4: gastric emptying thing is slowing down. You really just don't

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Speaker 4: have room to eat a whole brownie.

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Speaker 3: I suppose a nickel sized or byte sized brownie kind

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Speaker 3: of preserves customer choice in some ways. So if you're

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Speaker 3: on an AOM of some sort and you're not that hungry,

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Speaker 3: you can have one byte of the brownie. But if

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Speaker 3: you are not on AOMs and you are very hungry,

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Speaker 3: you can, you can. You'll probably just eat like a

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Speaker 3: bag full of them, right.

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Speaker 4: Well, yes, And you know what that brings up a

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Speaker 4: really important point, which was that all the things that

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Speaker 4: rose to the top of our test were things that

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Speaker 4: the whole family could enjoy, and that was an important

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Speaker 4: criteria for the you know, mostly women, it's mostly women

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Speaker 4: on these because they didn't want to buy things and

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Speaker 4: bring them into the hot household that would just for

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Speaker 4: them that their kids wouldn't eat, their husband wouldn't eat,

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Speaker 4: their partners wouldn't eat. So we saw other things like

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Speaker 4: these chicken strips that are grilled chicken breast that are

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Speaker 4: cut into strips and then individually wrapped, and so you

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Speaker 4: could imagine, you know, you're trying to get your protein,

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Speaker 4: but you don't want to eat a whole chicken breast

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Speaker 4: because that's just way too much. So that was our

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Speaker 4: number two scoring concept, and it just makes so much

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Speaker 4: sense because if you can't eat a whole chicken breask,

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Speaker 4: you really probably don't want to cook one and then

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Speaker 4: cut it up yourself. So this was a refrigerated product

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Speaker 4: that you could you could take it out of the

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Speaker 4: refrigerator and snack on it cold, or heat it up

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Speaker 4: and put it in a tortilla. So things like that,

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Speaker 4: you know, those represent some different format options, different packaging options,

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Speaker 4: portion sizes, and then you know, we have a whole

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Speaker 4: other list of stuff that seem to resonate some more

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Speaker 4: than others.

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Speaker 2: So it sounds like a lot of the innovation that

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Speaker 2: you've worked on or that we could see coming, as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned, sort of has to do with maybe foods

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Speaker 2: that we're familiar with, but that in rethinking the distribution,

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Speaker 2: and I have to say, I would snack on the

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Speaker 2: grilled chicken strip. I would be down for that, And

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Speaker 2: having like a big bag of those in my house,

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Speaker 2: that actually sounds like a I would snack on that.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned that the ginger infused foods sort of bombed.

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Speaker 2: Were there any breakthroughs in terms of flavors or somehow

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Speaker 2: recreating the sensation of a cucumber or a carrot, where

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Speaker 2: the breakthrough is not in the shape or distribution of

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Speaker 2: an existing thing, but in like some brand new type

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Speaker 2: of flavor that really worked on the ozompic users, the

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Speaker 2: AOM users.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, we tested a protein beverage. So this

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Speaker 4: was a line of clear beverages with protein added. And

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Speaker 4: that's that's a highly technical, very difficult challenge, having done

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Speaker 4: it myself, Yeah, that one is a high degree of difficulty,

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Speaker 4: let's just say that. But we tested this line of

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Speaker 4: three and I think one of our flavors was cucumber

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Speaker 4: or a cucumber line, and that actually resonated pretty well.

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Speaker 4: The idea being that if you think about protein drinks

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Speaker 4: on the market, they're usually chocolate, strawberry, really thick, they're

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Speaker 4: very satiating. And the idea of using the clear protein

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Speaker 4: in these lighter cucumber flavors and you know, other light

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Speaker 4: citrus flavors was that you would appeal to the more hydrating,

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Speaker 4: refreshing kind of experience but still get some protein. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I think that that is actually something that would resonate

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Speaker 4: just because of the flavor because it's not chocolate or

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Speaker 4: you know, even though number one scoring product was was brownies.

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Speaker 4: So you said something else that made me think that

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Speaker 4: the most the best, the best scoring products really were

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Speaker 4: very familiar. And I think that that just gets a

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Speaker 4: consumer behavior around food, because we'd like to say consumers

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Speaker 4: want a foot in the familiar and taking one step

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Speaker 4: out of the familiar to do to buy something really

385
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 4: innovative is okay, but to take that second step out

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Speaker 4: of the familiar is really disorienting. And so you know,

387
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:10,199
Speaker 4: if you're on a weight loss regimen and your body

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Speaker 4: is doing things differently, it makes sense that the familiar

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Speaker 4: stuff would score really well.

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Speaker 3: Just building on this point, i'd love to hear from

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Speaker 3: you what the sort of evolution of a new food

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00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 3: product or flavor actually is like from start to finish.

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Speaker 3: Do people come up with ideas for completely brand, new,

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Speaker 3: foreign things and build them out from there or is

395
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Speaker 3: it more taking something that already exists and trying to

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Speaker 3: improve on it in some way? Could you maybe walk

397
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Speaker 3: us through that process.

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Speaker 4: The answer is yes, all of the above. So we

399
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Speaker 4: have worked on things as novel as creating a roast

400
00:24:55,560 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 4: and ground coffee without coffee beans, and that product is

401
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 4: now in the market.

402
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 3: And what's wade out of I have to ask.

403
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 4: Well, you can buy it, and you know you can

404
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 4: look at the ingredient statement, so I guess I can

405
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 4: say it here. We actually tested well dozens and dozens

406
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Speaker 4: of upcycled ingredients that were basically products that were either

407
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Speaker 4: sent to animal feed or were really dis waste. So

408
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 4: think about things like seeds and pits and yeah, exactly exactly.

409
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 4: So where we ended up was date seeds. You know,

410
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 4: when you get a date unless you buy the pitted kind,

411
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Speaker 4: they have these seeds and so what we did was

412
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 4: we roasted the seeds, we ground them, we brewed them,

413
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Speaker 4: and then some other secret sauce that we can't talk about,

414
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Speaker 4: but turns out that they work in credibly well as

415
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Speaker 4: a replacement for coffee beans. So you know that I

416
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 4: have to give credit to the company A Tomo. I

417
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 4: want to give them a shout out. We just did

418
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Speaker 4: some very early proof of concept and development work for them,

419
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Speaker 4: but they have turned it into a business and it

420
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Speaker 4: is incredible. So that that's the kind of novel thing

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Speaker 4: that we might get an assignment to do. And then

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Speaker 4: you know, the other things that we're getting a lot

423
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Speaker 4: of these days is I want to do X, except

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Speaker 4: that I want to make it healthier, I want to

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Speaker 4: have more protein in it, I want to use clean

426
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Speaker 4: label ingredients. And so we're i would say, reinventing favorites

427
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 4: across a lot of categories. So you know, think things

428
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:54,639
Speaker 4: like indulgent cookies or crackers, or desserts, or you know,

429
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 4: even meals where we're replacing a lot of the not

430
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 4: so good ingredients with just more kitchen type of familiar ingredients.

431
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Speaker 2: So we talked about this on a previous episode about snacks,

432
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Speaker 2: and you know, some snack food trends come and go,

433
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 2: but some stick around. And so for example, you know

434
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, you could get cool ranch chips.

435
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: You can still get cool ranch chips. A hot thing

436
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: these days is chili lime. Flavors seem to be everywhere.

437
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 2: You wrote a book called Taste, Surprising Stories and Science

438
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,680
Speaker 2: about why food tastes good. So when I bring up

439
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 2: cool ranch or chili lime, what is it about some

440
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 2: of these flavors? What do they have in common that

441
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 2: you can say that's like, yes, these flavors stand the

442
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: test of time, and we'll be eating chili limes, chips

443
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 2: in twenty years, sitting aside people who are on ams

444
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: chili lime flavors, like, what do they have in common

445
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 2: when you look look at the code of a great flavor, Well, I.

446
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 4: Would say two words. One is complexity, and there is layered.

447
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 4: So let's just we'll take cool ranch and pull that

448
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 4: apart and think about it from the basic tastes. And

449
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: human beings are only capable of experiencing five basic tastes

450
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 4: on their tongue, So there's sweet, sour, bitter, salt, and

451
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 4: new mommy, and then everything else that you get is

452
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,959
Speaker 4: either a texture or an aroma. So the thing about

453
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 4: cool ranch or just ranch in general, is that it's

454
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: incredibly salty and savory. And those two things together, salty

455
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 4: and savory, and they kind of come together usually in nature.

456
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 4: When you combine them with the sourness of the butter

457
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 4: milk and the creaminess of the butter milk, you now

458
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 4: have a whole lot going on. You've got creamy, you've

459
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: got sour, you've got savory, you've got so and that

460
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 4: complexity and then the other things that are layered in

461
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 4: So now I'm talking about complexity and layering on top

462
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:13,479
Speaker 4: of complexity, so things like garlic and onion, which are

463
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: also important elements to a really interesting ranch profile. So

464
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 4: you know that, I think that really makes up a

465
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 4: lot of those classic flavors. So if we do the

466
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 4: same thing for a chili line, most of the chili

467
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 4: lime seasonings like something like a taheen you're familiar with.

468
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 4: It's not just chili and lime, but it's chili, lime

469
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 4: and salt, and so you know, again, let's go back

470
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 4: and sort of break it apart. So you've got the salt,

471
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 4: which is one of the basic tastes, and you've got

472
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 4: the chili, which is actually a texture that that heat.

473
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 4: But the slight heat that you get is working on

474
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 4: the same nerve that detec pain, so that is a texture.

475
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 4: So you're getting pain from the chili, you're getting salt

476
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 4: from the salt, and you're getting sour from the lime,

477
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 4: and that is a lot of complexity going on. Now

478
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 4: you also have to layer on that. There's some aroma

479
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 4: that sort of smoky maybe dusty aroma from the chilis,

480
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 4: and the lime has got its limy citrusness and those

481
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 4: are aromas. So those two flavors that you caught out.

482
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 4: There's a really really complex and they're very much layered,

483
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,720
Speaker 4: and the way that you experience them happens over time.

484
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: Joe, I'm so hungry.

485
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 2: I know this, I need this right. I haven't eaten

486
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: yet either. Yeah, so now I'm going to devour my life.

487
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 3: This is exactly what happened when we spoke with Ryan

488
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 3: Harlan as well. Okay, well, I'm curious what you think

489
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 3: makes a flavor or a food suddenly go viral. And

490
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: we've seen various examples of this in recent years. I think,

491
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: especially during the pandemic, everyone was stuck at home looking

492
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: maybe for new recipes to do, and you would see

493
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: something that looked really good on TikTok and so you

494
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 3: would try to do it. But is it about a

495
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 3: particularly innovative flavor or is it maybe you know, doing

496
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: something slightly new with food that you're already familiar with.

497
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 4: I think it's probably both. I mean that example of

498
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 4: you know, sitting at home during the pandemic and looking

499
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 4: for new recipes, I think that is pitomized by the

500
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 4: Feta pasta phenomenon. And I'm sure if you if your

501
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 4: listeners were on TikTok or if anyone remembers the TikTok

502
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 4: Feda pasta was just this enormous phenomenon, and that was

503
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty. If you fast forward. What's so fascinating

504
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 4: about that is that feta is now everywhere. If you

505
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 4: think about in twenty nineteen and before, feta pasta had

506
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,719
Speaker 4: one roll and that was on a Greek salad and

507
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 4: that's where you would find feta and nowhere else in

508
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 4: the US. Nowadays, not only can you find feta everywhere,

509
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 4: but you can go to the frozen food section of

510
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 4: your grocery store and you can buy feta pasta that's

511
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 4: clearly just developed and positioned to mimic that recipe that

512
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 4: was done online. And then I guess the second answer

513
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 4: to that question is what was really unique about the

514
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 4: way that the I believe she was finished the Finnish

515
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,640
Speaker 4: woman cooked that that she took a whole block of

516
00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 4: feta and just put it in the plate and put

517
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 4: raw tomatoes in with it and threw it in the oven,

518
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,720
Speaker 4: and it just it seemed very novel because you put

519
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: an entire block of cheese in and it seemed really easy.

520
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 4: And so you know, those two things in combination are

521
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 4: pretty powerful.

522
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: How quickly can that happen. So you're at a consumer

523
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: package goods company and your marketing team, or maybe you

524
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: at Mattson or someone says, you know, what, Feta's going

525
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 2: viral and we need a feto play or whatever it

526
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,959
Speaker 2: is these days, how quickly can you go from Feta

527
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 2: is viral to let's have a frozen Feta pasta bake

528
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 2: in the freezer aisle.

529
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 4: Well, it's a good question, and it depends on a

530
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 4: lot of things, mainly the size of the company. I

531
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 4: would say that the smaller companies are a little more

532
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 4: nimble and they can move a little faster, so that

533
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 4: has something to do with it. The other thing that

534
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 4: makes it much easier to do is if you own

535
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 4: your own manufacturing. So for companies that have their own

536
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 4: manufacturing lines, they would be able to move much faster

537
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 4: than someone using a contract manufacturer. So there's a lot

538
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 4: of things that go into it. But I would say,

539
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 4: you know, for a large CpG, it could take anywhere

540
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 4: from six months to a year and a half, depending

541
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 4: on how complex it is and depending on how many

542
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 4: varieties you're launching and developing. And then you know, for

543
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 4: the small companies, there was there was a phenomenon on

544
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 4: TikTok for a while with pancake cereal. So somebody made

545
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 4: teeny little pancakes in a pan, threw them in a bowl,

546
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 4: poured milk over it, and was eating pancakes like cereal.

547
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 4: It's kind of a brilliant idea. And there was a

548
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,439
Speaker 4: company called I think it's Belgian Boys, Belgian Boys, who

549
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 4: picked up on it right away.

550
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I say, I just I did a search

551
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 2: for pancake cereal in the first The first one is

552
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 2: Belgian Boys bite Sized Pancake Cereal.

553
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go. So those guys are brilliant because

554
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 4: they're already in the like the Belgian waffle kind of space,

555
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 4: and so they blew my mind. But how quickly they.

556
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: Got that quickly, I don't know.

557
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 4: We did not work on it, but I remember seeing

558
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,839
Speaker 4: the thing on TikTok, and then maybe a couple of

559
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 4: months later, they were at a major industry conference demonstrating it,

560
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 4: you know, serving it. So that was pretty amazing.

561
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: Who owns the intellectual copyright for something like, you know,

562
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 3: the feta pasta bake or bite sized pancakes, Because it

563
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 3: seems like you do see these things proliferate very quickly,

564
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 3: and eventually they become so big that no one can

565
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,880
Speaker 3: really remember where they first came from. And then eventually

566
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: you have companies that sort of formalize them into actual products.

567
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think those are the ones that end up

568
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 4: owning and you know, air quotes owning the idea. It

569
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 4: is very hard, if not impossible, to patent a formula

570
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 4: or a recipe, so that almost never happens. So the

571
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,120
Speaker 4: best thing that you can do is put a really

572
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 4: powerful brand on your product and make sure that your

573
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 4: brand is associated with that thing. The other thing that

574
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,719
Speaker 4: you can do is you can trademark the name if

575
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 4: it's not too descriptive, and you can patent with what

576
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 4: is known as a manufacturing process, so you can get

577
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 4: a process patent. But in the food world, it's just

578
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 4: so easy for people to knock these things off. I

579
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 4: can tell you because we've done it before, so you

580
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 4: know it doesn't necessarily pay off to do that. The

581
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 4: best thing you can do is just really market it well,

582
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 4: make sure it tastes delicious, get lots of distribution, and

583
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 4: sell it for a fair price.

584
00:36:56,440 --> 00:37:00,080
Speaker 3: Jo, there goes my idea of making money from a

585
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 3: corn rib grilled cheese sandwich dusted with fiery Cheetos.

586
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: Yeah you could still if you had the right brand,

587
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 2: the odd lots brand and the distribution, maybe you could

588
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 2: do it. But yes, I agree, something bigger, all right.

589
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 2: So a company comes to your barb and they're like,

590
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 2: you know what, we need something new, we wanna we

591
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 2: need a breakthrough snack chili lime. It's fine, but it's

592
00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: sort of getting mature whatever. Like I guess two questions

593
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: like how do you identify the next big thing? And

594
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 2: actually just what is the next big thing?

595
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 4: Well, you have to be on it. You have to

596
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 4: be watching the next big thing everywhere and all the time.

597
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:45,919
Speaker 4: So we look too higher end restaurants for inspiration. That's

598
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 4: where we get a lot of them. We also look

599
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 4: to TikTok. It's interesting that things are starting there and

600
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,920
Speaker 4: not just food, but the way that you're making food.

601
00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 4: The appliance is a using you know, there's a couple

602
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 4: of appliances that have really taken off on TikTok, like

603
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 4: the Ninja creamy that allows you to make high protein

604
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 4: ice cream. So that's something that we're using on our

605
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 4: trend lunch menu this year. So you really do have

606
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 4: to look everywhere and then what we have to our

607
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 4: advantage is that we are working with some forty to

608
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 4: fifty food and beverage companies every day, and in our

609
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 4: work for them, we're always doing consumer research. So we're

610
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,759
Speaker 4: constantly talking to consumers about what they like, what they

611
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,919
Speaker 4: don't like, what's resonating, what are they cooking at home,

612
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 4: what are they eating out, where are they shopping. So

613
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 4: we have a lot of institutionalized knowledge, and you know,

614
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,839
Speaker 4: that is our ip and that's part of what we

615
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 4: bring to our clients. But it's a never ending search

616
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 4: for the next thing. If I had to say one

617
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 4: thing or one flavor right now, I would say that

618
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 4: tropical flavors are just on fire. And tropical can mean

619
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 4: everything from mango and pineapple to.

620
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 2: Ube and everything, yeah and everything, yeah, exactly.

621
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 4: So we're we're closely watching Southeast Asian flavors, so Filipino

622
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: flavors like kalamansi, which is a bitter citrus that comes

623
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 4: on the heels of yuzu, which is a Japanese kind

624
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 4: of lime citrus. So you have to go far and wide,

625
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 4: and it's it's really easy to do these days. I mean,

626
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 4: if you think about just opening TikTok. And you know

627
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 4: this is it's not a national audience of users, it's

628
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 4: a global audience of users. So you're seeing what people

629
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 4: are posting in Korea and elsewhere. That's the other thing

630
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 4: we're very bullish on is Korean food.

631
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 2: So I just have one request speaking of Southeast Asian flavors,

632
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 2: and I'm seeing it more. But Pondon in particular is

633
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: one of my favorite flavors, and so is a is

634
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 2: a consumer. I just request please tell your clients to

635
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: create more Pondon infuse sweets because that is probably my

636
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 2: favorite flavor in the world. So I'm just passing down, passing.

637
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 4: I will pass that along to all clients.

638
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you, Thank you very much, Barb Stucky. It

639
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: was so great chatting with you. Really appreciate you coming

640
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 2: on out block.

641
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 4: Oh with my pleasure. It was super fun. Thank you

642
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 4: for having me.

643
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:43,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much.

644
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Barb. I gotta go eat something.

645
00:40:46,520 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Tracy, I never heard of a klamansi before, but

646
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,760
Speaker 2: it looks like a lime that looks like an orange

647
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: in side. It looks amazing. Have you ever had one

648
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:06,919
Speaker 2: of these?

649
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 3: I don't think I have. Hold on, I'm looking it up.

650
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 2: Look at it. It looks like that. It looks like

651
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: the cover of like the Freakonomics book, where it's like

652
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,399
Speaker 2: not the oh yeah, look at that. Doesn't they look good?

653
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 3: That looks amazing. I don't think I have had that.

654
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 4: No, I need.

655
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 2: I definitely need to try a Kalamansi.

656
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of ideas of foods to try. From that conversation,

657
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 3: I thought the ozembic study was absolutely fascinating because my

658
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 3: assumption had kind of been, well, if you're on ozempic

659
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 3: and you're just not that hungry anymore, that companies need

660
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 3: to try harder with like new and exotic flavors to

661
00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 3: lure you in, which means more sugar, more salt maybe,

662
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: But per Barb's research, it seems like people don't want

663
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: to eat that kind of stuff anymore.

664
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 2: No, it's interesting too that the innovation, it sounds like,

665
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 2: will be on preparation packaging in distribt.

666
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think portion size.

667
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 2: It sounds like so the idea of and the idea

668
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 2: also that the maybe packaging in such a way that

669
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 2: the person in the family who is on a GLP

670
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: one can just have one of them, but everyone else

671
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 2: can have more so you know, like a grilled, prepared

672
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: chicken strip. Yeah, I could see like grabbing one out

673
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 2: of the refrigerator and using that as a snack. But

674
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: also you could have, like you know, someone else could

675
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 2: grab five, or someone else could put a bunch on

676
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 2: a salad or something like that, or the sort of

677
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 2: sad sounding brownie cube.

678
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 3: Really some of this does sound slightly dystopian to me,

679
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: so nicol sized brownie bites, and like coffee made out

680
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 3: of not coffee, although I can understand maybe why some

681
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 3: people don't want to drink coffee, you know. In terms

682
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 3: of individually wrapped chicken, this is something I remember they

683
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 3: have in Hong Kong. If you go into a seven

684
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 3: eleven or any of the meanings over there, they have

685
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 3: like plastic wrapped I think it must have been boiled

686
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: or roast chicken.

687
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: I would eat that.

688
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: You could just snack on. It never looks particularly appetizing

689
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 3: to be but it does exist.

690
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would definitely eat it somebody. It sounds very utilitarian.

691
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: It does seem like that maybe utilitarian is the way

692
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: to put it. Also, this idea that like already, if

693
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:25,600
Speaker 2: someone is on one of these drugs, they're going to

694
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: be eating in a new way or whatever. And so

695
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: the idea of like keep some aspect of it that's

696
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 2: familiar was an interesting idea. So something that people are

697
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: familiar with, but maybe in a new way or a

698
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: new portion. Or she mentioned the idea of like a

699
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: clear protein drink instead of a gloppy like chocolate. One.

700
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: Really interesting stuff there.

701
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I was thinking just going back to the

702
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 3: original golp one discussion that we had with James Van Geln,

703
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 3: and he was talking about these second order effects. I mean,

704
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: it does seem like if you run a restaurant or

705
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 3: something in some respects you can start tailor your menu

706
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 3: to an increased proportion of the population that maybe doesn't

707
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 3: want to eat really salty or heavy or sweet foods.

708
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 3: But I have to think if you are a chip maker, yeah,

709
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 3: not that kind of chip maker, a potato chip maker,

710
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 3: or I don't know, someone who makes like soda or whatever.

711
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 3: There must be maybe not soda, because I guess you

712
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: could make a celsiest type energy drink that feels light

713
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 3: and invigorating. But certainly if you're a junk food maker,

714
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 3: this must be difficult for you, right, You are not

715
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:33,800
Speaker 3: going to be able to push a button and suddenly

716
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 3: come up with a suite of healthy light options that

717
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:42,800
Speaker 3: satisfy the new gl P one population totally.

718
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 2: Like if you get a bunch of people going around

719
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: saying like I really am just craving a slice of

720
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: cution cor Yeah, which, for what it's worth, I've been there.

721
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 2: I've every once in a while just like a nicely

722
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:54,360
Speaker 2: crispiece of cucumbers.

723
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 3: Who stick of celery.

724
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 2: Yeah it's not bad or like I you know, I

725
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 2: endorse that too, but it does not sound like a

726
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: great opportunity if you're like in the business of like

727
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:04,440
Speaker 2: making ruffles or something like that.

728
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 3: Well, the other thing I was thinking is I've seen

729
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 3: some negative commentary around food packagers stemming from the weight

730
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: loss drugs. So this idea that they're just not going

731
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 3: to sell as much food, and okay, yeah, perhaps on aggregate.

732
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 3: But on the other hand, it sounds like there might

733
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 3: be opportunities if you're getting smaller portions for more packaging

734
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,360
Speaker 3: or more packaging for things like vegetable sticks or apple

735
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 3: slices or whatever. It sounds like maybe there's an opportunity there.

736
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: Well, if nothing else, I feel like after this conversation,

737
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 2: I suspect we're going to start, you know, when we're

738
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 2: going to the grocery store, notice things or pay closer

739
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 2: attention to, like, oh, is this being portion sized or

740
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: is this package sized in a way that looks tailored

741
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 2: for someone on one of these drugs?

742
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 4: Yeah?

743
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely, all right, a new grocery shopping game.

744
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I thing to look forward to.

745
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 3: Shall we leave it there?

746
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 2: Let's leave it there.

747
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 3: This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast.

748
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,959
Speaker 3: I'm Tree Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway and.

749
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 2: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart.

750
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:09,800
Speaker 2: Follow our guest Barb Stucky. She's at Barb Stucky. Follow

751
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,400
Speaker 2: our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen armand dash O Bennett

752
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: at Dashbot and kill Brooks at Kilbrooks. Thank you to

753
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 2: our producer Moses Ondam. For more Oddlots, go to Bloomberg

754
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,680
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755
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: have a blog and a newsletter and you can chat

756
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,360
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757
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,960
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758
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,960
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759
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:36,680
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760
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,520
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761
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762
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763
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764
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