1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe Table four, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: and Adamized Studios. 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 2: Whilst campaigning and then serving as President of the United States, 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 2: Barack Obama relied on Matthew Barzen, asking him to run 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 2: the two thousand and twelve campaign, and then appointing him 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: Ambassador to Britain during the heady days of the Scottish 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: independence and Brexit referendums. Matthew, with his wonderful wife Brooke, 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 2: redefined the special relationship by bringing art, music, and most 9 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 2: of all fun to the Ambassador's residence, Wingfield House. Recently, 10 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 2: Matthew has written The Power of Giving Away Power, a 11 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 2: must read book for a soul. He's in Kentucky right now, 12 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: I'm in London. But if there is a special relationship 13 00:00:51,960 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: between the US and the UK, there is definitely a 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:05,039 Speaker 2: special relationship between Matthew Barzin and myself. Matthew, would you 15 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: like to read the recipe that you chose to read? Yes? 16 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 3: I would be honored. 17 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 2: Okay. 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 3: Fried artichokes serves four eight artichokes the small purple Italian 19 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 3: winter variety are best for this recipe. Two lemons, two 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 3: tablespoons plain flour, tepot zero zero is best one liter 21 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,240 Speaker 3: sunflower oil. To prepare the artichokes, cut off the stem, 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: then carefully pull away the outer leaves until you get 23 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 3: to the pale green heart. Cut off the tip, cut 24 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: into quarters, and remove the center choke. Place the pieces 25 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 3: in water with slices of lemon. Combine the flour with seasoning. 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: Drain the artichokes and shake dry in a sieve. Toss 27 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 3: into the flower mixture. Keep the oil to one hundred 28 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 3: and eighty degrees celsius in a deep pot. Add the 29 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: artichokes and fry until light brown. Drain on kitchen paper, 30 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: Season and serve with lemon. 31 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: Thank you, Matthew, Why of all the recipes of all 32 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 2: the books, did you choose deep fried art of chicks. 33 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: I'm so thrilled to do because it's one of my 34 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 2: favorite things to eat. So tell me why it's yours. 35 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 3: Well, I love to eat them, and then I had 36 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 3: the great honor of being able to prepare them when 37 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: you let me. I mean cook is a strong word. 38 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 3: You help let me participate in the magic that is 39 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: the River Cafe one Sunday morning, and I was put 40 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 3: in charge of the fried artichokes, or a piece of 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 3: the fried artichoke process. And you know, it's funny. As 42 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: I read it out loud, it says, you know, carefully 43 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 3: pull away the outer leaves. That's actually not that hard 44 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: until you get to the pale, green heart, and there's 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 3: something beautiful about that. This was the tricky part. Cut 46 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: off the tip, cut into quarters, and then remove the 47 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: center choke, which sounds straightforward, but if you don't remove 48 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 3: it enough, you have that nasty stuff in there. And 49 00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 3: then I started getting paranoid, and your nice member of 50 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 3: your team was gently telling me to remove more of 51 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 3: the choke. Then I went overboard the other way, and 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 3: then there's barely anything left to eat, and so trying 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 3: to find that balance was a challenge, but that's why 54 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 3: I picked it. 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 2: And what are your memories of that day? 56 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 3: Beautiful Sunday morning. I got to put on the cool 57 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 3: white chef's jacket, so that was cool, and then I 58 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: got on my little station and I had the water 59 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 3: with lemon, and I was amazed by the calm. And 60 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 3: it's funny. It reminded me when I first got to 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: go to the West Wing. I had seen the West 62 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 3: Wing on the television show, which I loved, and then 63 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 3: movies and in the movies they always show it as 64 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 3: like hustling and bustling and it's kind of loud, and 65 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 3: it was just really calm. And I felt the same 66 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: way about the River Cafe kitchen on a Sunday morning, 67 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 3: before any of the guests arrive, it's just wonderfully calm 68 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 3: and joyful. 69 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: It's very rare for us to have someone in the 70 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: kitchen because kitchen is a dangerous place and there's a 71 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: lot of sure, however calm it seems. But I think 72 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: you have always been, as I said from our first conversation, 73 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: really interested in food, in cooking and the process of 74 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 2: cooking food. Yes, let's go back to the early days. 75 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: Who cooked in your house when you were growing up? 76 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 2: What was food like in the bars and house? 77 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 3: Food? Was it changed? Because my parents got a lot 78 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 3: of things changed in my life when my parents got divorced. 79 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 3: I should say at the outset, I have a wonderful 80 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: mother and a wonderful father, even though when I'm about 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: to say sounds a little strange, which is when I 82 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 3: was eleven years old, they got divorced, and in the summertime, 83 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 3: my favorite thing to do was to go down to 84 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 3: this little cottage, little series of cottages in Cape Cod, 85 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 3: but it was my father's family's place, and so, for 86 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 3: understandable reasons, my mother was not keen post divorced to 87 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 3: go down there. And I said, well, that's too bad 88 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 3: for you that you got divorced. I'm still going, and 89 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 3: they somehow listened to my eleven year old self. So 90 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 3: I spent Monday through Friday all summer when I was 91 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 3: eleven by myself, and then my father would come down 92 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 3: on weekends. And so he was a really good cook, 93 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 3: and his mother, who at this point had died, my grandmother, Mariana. 94 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 3: She was a really good cook and he sort of 95 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: learned it from her, And so my memories of cooking 96 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 3: were sort of learning to cook for myself and then 97 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 3: learning to cook for friends to try to get them 98 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 3: to come over so I'd have someone to hang out 99 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 3: with during the week. And then the most fun was 100 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 3: on Friday nights, all the grown ups. So my father 101 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 3: would drive down, my aunt and uncle would drive up 102 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 3: from New York, and all these grown ups would arrive 103 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 3: and be tired after a long work week, and I 104 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: would make them dinner. 105 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: What would you make? Do you remember? 106 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 3: I do? I made gosh, what do we call it? 107 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 3: It was poached chicken breasts in Vermouth with sort of 108 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,720 Speaker 3: prescudo and cheese and sage. It was sort of like 109 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 3: chicken sealtumboca, but not really that a tow. But yeah, anyway, 110 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 3: and I did it and they were so unbelievably appreciative. 111 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: It wasn't very good, but they just thought, I mean, 112 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 3: they didn't have to cook it, so that was a 113 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 3: big bonus for them and that appreciation. 114 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 2: And what age were you eleven? You were eleven? Yeah, yeah, 115 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: that's very young. And it's also a performance, isn't it 116 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 2: that you had to know it's. 117 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,239 Speaker 3: Totally a performance. And I got applause and that felt 118 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: good and encouragement. So that those were some early memories. 119 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: In these conversations, I'm always touched by the presence or 120 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 2: influence of a grandmother, even sometimes more than the parent 121 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: that the people have memories. Tell me about your grandmother. 122 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,479 Speaker 3: She died when I was ten or nine maybe, and 123 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 3: so I didn't know her when knew were as a 124 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 3: kid would know a grandmother, and she was quite formal, 125 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 3: but in the kitchen she was a really good cook 126 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: and chef, and she passed on to my father, and 127 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,720 Speaker 3: then he passed on to me. Now this isn't New England, right, 128 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 3: So this is not and you remember back then, I 129 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 3: mean there aren't lots of choices of what you got 130 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 3: in the grocery store. So she had this curry recipe 131 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 3: which I loved and I thought it was the only 132 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 3: kind of curry. Now I've learned more. But I got 133 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 3: invited when I was ambassador to compete in up in 134 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: Bradford in the International Curry Cookoff. It was really fun. Yeah, yeah, 135 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 3: they did something and so as a stunt or whatever, 136 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: the embassy people like, oh, he likes to cook, he'll 137 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 3: cook the curry. So I cooked my grandmother's curry recipe, 138 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 3: which he'd gotten from a British friend, and they brought 139 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 3: in some amazing chef from India and they were cooking 140 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 3: proper curry and I was cooking the sort of water 141 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 3: down curry and embarrassingly it had and there was lots 142 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: of Muslim participants and guests and judges, and her recipe 143 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 3: for curry had three quarters of a cup of vermouth, 144 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 3: which of course would not be appropriate to serve, and 145 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: so without telling me, they substituted in white grape juice 146 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 3: instead of vermouth, and it was the most disgusting curry. 147 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 3: So I came in last place. Did you come in 148 00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: the last place? Yeah? Yeah, I mean just absolute last, 149 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: and I deserved that. 150 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 2: Because it's also interesting that your grandmother in that period 151 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 2: of time encouraged your father to cook. 152 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 3: Yes, And back to the divorce, I mean so I 153 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 3: never associated my father really with cooking until after they 154 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: got divorced. But then he would have us every other weekend, 155 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: and he really made cooking a big deal. We got 156 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: to each rotated. I'm one of four children, and we 157 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: got to pick what he would cook, and we could 158 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: say anything like I want fried Wanton's and he'd say okay, 159 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 3: and he'd figure out how to cook them, and so 160 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 3: that became a nice ritual. 161 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 2: It's rather beautiful that he chose that way through food 162 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 2: to express love and to express I'm giving you attention 163 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 2: on my weekend as a father, do you think, yeah, exactly. 164 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,520 Speaker 2: So you had this childhood of being between and cooking 165 00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: for yourself age eleven, performing for other in the kitchen 166 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 2: for your family, and then what happened when you sort 167 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: of started living on your own as a student. Did 168 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 2: you carry that with you when you left home. 169 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 3: I really didn't. There was like this whole I was 170 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 3: gonna say dark period, but that's sort of dramatic in it, 171 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: not with bad connotations, but I mean I don't think 172 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 3: I through college and then I lived out in San 173 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 3: Francisco and the sort of dot com internety days, and 174 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 3: I had a one room apartment that had a little 175 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 3: kitchen on the side, and I don't think I ever ever, 176 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: I mean toasted a piece of toast or made a 177 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 3: cup of tea. I mean, I just didn't use it. 178 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,200 Speaker 3: We all just sort of ate out. Wasn't very healthy. 179 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 3: And so until I met my lovely wife, Brooke, who 180 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 3: by the way, sends her love to you, Ruthie. And 181 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: then we moved in together and she had a tiny kitchen. 182 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 3: I mean you could fit you know, one person in 183 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: it maybe, And we started going to the farmer's market. 184 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 3: And then I started cooking again, and I started back 185 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 3: after ten years of not cooking or eight or whatever, 186 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 3: with scrambled eggs, scrambled eggs, ushrooms and time nice and 187 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 3: scrambled eggs. I think is a great demonstration because I've 188 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 3: tried to teach my kids all are interested in cooking. 189 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 3: And so it's been fun kind of trying to pass 190 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:11,600 Speaker 3: that along. And the point and you've made it to 191 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 3: me and other who are amazing chefs that you could 192 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 3: just tell you can certainly taste, but even before you taste, 193 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 3: you can just look at a plate and tell if 194 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 3: something was cooked with love or not. And there's something 195 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 3: about scrambled eggs. Just do the love test on three 196 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: different plates of scrambled eggs. You can tell. 197 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: You can tell it's an ingredient, isn't it? It is? 198 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 2: It is? 199 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,440 Speaker 3: Oh, I love that it's an ingredient. 200 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: Oh that's good. We're living and you were living in 201 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: San Francisco and eating out a lot. So what was 202 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 2: it like eating out? Did you explore coming from New 203 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 2: England and the family and the kind of things you 204 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: had there? Was it? What was it like eating out 205 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: in restaurants for you? 206 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 3: Restaurants? You know? Growing up? I mean it was it 207 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 3: was a huge deal to go to one. I mean 208 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: there wasn't one in our town, but there was one 209 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 3: in the next town, and so we really looked forward 210 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 3: to it. And so to have a city with so 211 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 3: many right nearby and making money so you could go 212 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 3: to them. It didn't have to ask for permission. That 213 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 3: was really fun. And back then there was a famous 214 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 3: Visa commercial that just ran during every football game that 215 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 3: showed the Fog City Diner. I don't know if you 216 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 3: remember that anyway, So it turns out where I worked 217 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 3: at CNET was four hundred yards from the Fog City Diner. 218 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 3: I was like, I can't believe it really exists, and 219 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 3: I got to go in and so I love that. 220 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 3: And then a really famous place called, oh gosh, now 221 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 3: I'm forgetting the name, Buena Vista, which was like a 222 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 3: famous Irish coffee place that was right near where we lived. 223 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,079 Speaker 3: So that was good memories of San Francisco. 224 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: And I think restaurants it's quite telling the way someone 225 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 2: actually is in a restaurant kind of. I think that's 226 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: why people like going on first dates sometimes in a restaurant, 227 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 2: because it does tell you something about the person, do 228 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: you think, Well. 229 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 3: It does, and I'm reminded that the first So I 230 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 3: got set up with my now wife Brooke on a 231 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 3: blind date and I got good points. I picked a 232 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 3: hipster call val twenty one in San Francisco, which was 233 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: in the mission Valencia and twenty first, which is where 234 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,359 Speaker 3: it got its name, and it wasn't sort of the predictable, 235 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,679 Speaker 3: preppy kind of place that she thought I might take her. 236 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,440 Speaker 3: So I get some early points. But then Ruthie I 237 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: did something terrible. The server comes around and says, you know, 238 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 3: here's the wine list. Would you like a bottle of wine? 239 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: And this is a blind ad first aid, and I 240 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 3: don't know why I did it, but I said, no, 241 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: that's okay, Brook, if you want wine, you can have 242 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 3: a glass of wine. I'm going to have a bud light. 243 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,440 Speaker 3: And she went back and she told her father, who asked, like, 244 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 3: how is the date, and she said, oh, he's a 245 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 3: nice guy or whatever. But he didn't split a bottle 246 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 3: of wine. He ordered a bud light and I had 247 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 3: a glass of whatever she had and he's like, oh, dear, okay, 248 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: well there are many fish in the sea. 249 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: Move on. 250 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 3: So it almost ruined it. It almost ruined. 251 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 2: Reverse exactly, Yes, the reverse. Yeah, people, that's so funny. 252 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: But there you are. How many years later that was 253 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,960 Speaker 2: h twenty five? Yeah, and what about when you just 254 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 2: mentioned before about the White House and the West Wing, 255 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 2: And I remember in the series the West Wing, there 256 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: was always a scene in the canteen downstairs, wasn't there 257 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: Toopy and the Josh and they were all meeting over 258 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: the food and the canteen. What was food like in 259 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 2: the White House? Yeah? 260 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: Well I never worked there, so I got some friends 261 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,440 Speaker 3: of mine. Would you have the White House mess which 262 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 3: is really cool and sort of neat and because of 263 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,360 Speaker 3: the show, it's great. And then there's the place sort 264 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 3: of under the Eisenhower Executive Office building, which is just 265 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 3: deeply unremarkable and just sort of like a cafeteria like 266 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 3: anywhere else. But it is fun and all you know, 267 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 3: you want to save the little napkin with the White 268 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 3: House logo and the little Aminam. You're just sort of 269 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 3: like you become a little bit like a child in 270 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 3: a good way. 271 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: I hope when you went to Sweden was that food? 272 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: What was the food? 273 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: Gosh? Did I love the food like herring? I mean, 274 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 3: if you had asked me if I liked herring going 275 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: into it, I would have said no. And now I 276 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 3: adore it. The mustard herring and the sort of just 277 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 3: regular pickled herring and the sour cream and chives. I 278 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 3: think it is so I love and herring for breakfast. 279 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: Weirdly, you know, that's there. 280 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: And then Swedish meatballs were fun to try to learn 281 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: how to cook, and then they're famous. You know how 282 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 3: some countries have the famously sort of disgusting to most 283 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 3: people food. And our wonderful driver named Bjorn, who is 284 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 3: just an amazing, amazing driver. He's an amazing historian and 285 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 3: loves the culture. And he's from a part of Sweden 286 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 3: called Sunsvaal, where my mother had spent her summer abroad 287 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: when she was sixteen, and so I grew up hearing 288 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: this story and I heard it sort of misheard it. 289 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 3: So I heard that in Sweden and Sunsvaale they take 290 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 3: fish and they bury it for one hundred years and 291 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: then they unearthed it and they eat it. Now that 292 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 3: is not true, but the kernel of truth was sir strumming, 293 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 3: which means sort of sour herring, and it comes from 294 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 3: the herring at the bottom of the barrel and it 295 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 3: is a delicacy. And so we had Bjorn serve it 296 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 3: to the children and to me and to Brook and 297 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 3: it is like if you open it, like there are 298 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 3: rules against opening a can of this stuff in an 299 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: apartment building because people will just wretch. Yeah, there is 300 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: there's a lot of death in that can, and it's 301 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 3: pretty grim. I haven't learned to like it, but the 302 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: kids were troopers. They all ate it, and I did too, 303 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 3: And so I said to Burn on the way back, 304 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 3: to close off these serres drumming story, I said, I said, well, 305 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 3: it's rotten fish, and he very sweet. He's just like, 306 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 3: it is not rotten. It is controlled spoilage, controlled spoilage. 307 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 3: And I thought that was such a nice distinction. And 308 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 3: then his comparison was, you know, gorgonzola or French blue 309 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,960 Speaker 3: cheese or whatever that you don't call that rotten cheese, 310 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 3: although you could call it that, but that's a different 311 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 3: framing of the same product. 312 00:15:55,320 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: I like that contained controlled spoilage and spoilage. After Sweden, 313 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: you went and you campaigned for President Obama, and presumably 314 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: you traveled all over the United States, and what would 315 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 2: you eat on the campaign trail? 316 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 3: I gained so much weight roofye on that campaign, and 317 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 3: at the end of the campaign, thank goodness, we won. 318 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 3: But it was a lot different from you were on 319 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 3: that campaign too, that first campaign in two thousand and eight. 320 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 3: Anyone involved, wherever they were London, back home in America, 321 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 3: they would also have described it as like this amazing 322 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 3: sort of wave that we were all surfing and it 323 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 3: just felt magic twenty twelve, and I'm so proud of 324 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 3: the work we did. It was not a wave to 325 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: be surfed. It was really kind of like a slog 326 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: and so that kind of stress for me. Anyway, we 327 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 3: would go to this place called Wildberry at the base 328 00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 3: of Chicago headquarters with my friend Rufe and Sam and 329 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 3: Kevin and a lot of people, you know, and we 330 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:06,400 Speaker 3: would just eat there and we would eat really unhealthily. 331 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: And so at the end when we won, their sort 332 00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: of thank you gift to me was a framed and 333 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 3: signed menu from Wildberry because we had just overeaten there 334 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: for you know, throughout the campaign. And so then my 335 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 3: lovely daughter Eleanor at the time, said right after that, 336 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 3: she said, Daddy, you have a really cozy tummy, and 337 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 3: she sort of pushes at my belly and I was like, 338 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 3: oh gross. It was like a lovely way of I mean, 339 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: you could frame it differently and it was kind of 340 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: like controlled spoilage of weight gain and cozy tummy. And 341 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 3: then I thought, okay, I need to really lose weight, 342 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,639 Speaker 3: so I did, which I had never really done a 343 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 3: diet or anything like that before, but then I did 344 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 3: and that worked. 345 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: So and so from Sweden to the wild Berry, back to. 346 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 3: London and then to London and then the food was 347 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 3: great again thanks to you, and the food was. 348 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 2: Great at Winfield House. Did you did you influence them? 349 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 2: Did you talk about the kind of food as an 350 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: American ambassador that you wanted to serve at Windfield House? 351 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 3: Well, I remember I had a phone call with my 352 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: predecessor because there are certain questions you sort of can't 353 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 3: ask the State Department, or you don't feel comfortable, sort 354 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 3: of petty householdie things you didn't want to really bother 355 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: them with. And I said, well, look, if it's a 356 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 3: Saturday morning and I just want to wake up early 357 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 3: and make the kids pancakes, and you know, do I 358 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 3: do that in the upstairs little kitchen? Ad do I 359 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 3: do it in the big kitchen downstairs? That kind of thing? 360 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,960 Speaker 3: And he laughed and he's like, you are never going 361 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 3: to set foot in that kitchen. And I knew that 362 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 3: he was, you know, he wasn't into cooking. And I 363 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 3: was like, no, no, no, you don't understand, Like I'm into 364 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 3: that thing. I certainly will, but he was more right 365 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,880 Speaker 3: than wrong in the sense that there was a wonderful 366 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 3: team there who did it. I mean I did go in. 367 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 3: I never really cooked there, you know. I would say, 368 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,879 Speaker 3: can we try this? And they were amazing, but I 369 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 3: didn't really do And I really miss cooking because that 370 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 3: was to the earlier point about my father. I mean, 371 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 3: it was a way I tried to show love to 372 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 3: my kids and I was gone a lot, you know, 373 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,919 Speaker 3: out every night, and was sensitive and they picked up 374 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 3: on that because they're smart and perceptive, and so I thought, oh, well, 375 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 3: at least I can cook and try to show, you know, 376 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 3: if I'm missing their games or whatever, at least I 377 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 3: can cook. But I kind of couldn't, so that was 378 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 3: too bad. 379 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: But I remember the food was very good there. You're 380 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: going to the residence with you and Brooke was always 381 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: it was warm, and it was it was also there 382 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 2: was a formality, which we wanted. We wanted that formality. 383 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: I always felt that I liked that expectation of going 384 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: to the residents of the American Ambassador. But we had fun, 385 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 2: you know, and you made being an ambassador of fun 386 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: and you made us feel welcome. And I can remember 387 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: the meals, and I can remember you taking me into 388 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: the kitchen to meet the cooks. And you know, my 389 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: grandchildren can remember the chocolate fountain. You know, Oh my god, 390 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,640 Speaker 2: I did have a You did bring something very very 391 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 2: important to the food when filled out. 392 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 3: Well, that team was amazing and I'm glad that worked. 393 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I remember, you know how everyone loves like 394 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: sea salt chocolate, and there's just that sort of salty 395 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:12,159 Speaker 3: sweet magic or popcorn with you know, milk doudgs in 396 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 3: it or whatever. And so I felt that the formality 397 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 3: of the place was so obviously formal and kind of 398 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 3: intimidating to people, and so we would have fun doing 399 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 3: the sort of fancy silver trays, except with paps blue 400 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 3: ribbon cans on them, you know. So it's just sort 401 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: of like sweet and salty, formal, informal, and trying to 402 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:33,199 Speaker 3: mash that stuff up I thought was a way to 403 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 3: not be overly informal, but also sort of lighten up 404 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 3: a little bit. 405 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 2: And now you know, you've left us and London is 406 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 2: a sadder place, and you're in Kentucky. But what about 407 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 2: food in Kentucky? What about food? And Louville? 408 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 3: We have an amazing food scene here in Louisville. And 409 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 3: I don't know that this is true, but when I 410 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 3: moved here, I was told that there is something like 411 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 3: more restaurants per capita here than you know, let's say, 412 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 3: any other American city. And yeah, it's great food. And 413 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: then the joke is, if you come here, I mean, 414 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 3: people will be like everything has bacon in it. And 415 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 3: our mutual friend James, when he came was joking, and 416 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: as a Jewish guy, he was sort of like, oh 417 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 3: my gosh, is there anything not with bacon? And then 418 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 3: at this restaurant they had bacon ice cream, which you know, 419 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 3: proved his point. And I was like, no, not everything 420 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 3: has and I was like, oh, well, yes they do. 421 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 3: But I'm cooking as we speak, Ruthie, what do you 422 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,920 Speaker 3: make it? I am doing a slow cooker. I don't 423 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 3: want to. Don't judge me, but I am making doctor 424 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 3: pepper slow cooker pulled pork shoulder. It's sort of like 425 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,439 Speaker 3: cherry coke. But the root flavor I am told is 426 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 3: actually prune. Now, for reasons that are obvious to everybody, 427 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 3: they don't market it as prune soda because that wouldn't work. 428 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 3: But it's sort of like cherry coke kind of thing. 429 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 3: So I've never done this before. I am trying it 430 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: and my hope is that it'll be delicious. But we'll see. 431 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: You know, you've written a book, The Power of Giving 432 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: Way Power. And when you were writing it, did you 433 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 2: have a way of working and eating? Is that change 434 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 2: the way you ate and worked? How did you write? 435 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 2: And tell us also about the book? 436 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 3: So the Power of Giving Away Power, How the best 437 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 3: Leaders learned to let go is in a nutshell about 438 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 3: the lost habits of interdependence. And I talk about two 439 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 3: different ways of thinking about power. One I call the 440 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,760 Speaker 3: pyramid top down, in, out, up, down, even bottom up, 441 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 3: and that we get trapped in that pyramid, and that 442 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 3: there is an alternative to that. And I call it 443 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 3: the constellation, a way of looking at yourself and those 444 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 3: around you. You're your own self, You're a star and 445 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: everyone around you is a star. And what kind of 446 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 3: combinations can you make to make things more useful and 447 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 3: more powerful than you ever could all by yourself. It 448 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 3: actually comes from the American logo, which you can see 449 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 3: on the back of a US one dollar bill. There's 450 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 3: that funny pyramid with the mini little pyramid with the 451 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 3: all singeye on top, and then there's the other side, 452 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 3: the US Seal, and it's got the eagle that everyone 453 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 3: remembers the shield. But right above the eagles head is 454 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 3: this thing they called the constellation. And this was supposed 455 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 3: to be the crest and the overall essence of the 456 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 3: whole thing, and it's called the radiant constellation. And underneath 457 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 3: that radian constellation is where our famous national motto goes, 458 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 3: epluribus unam from many one and you could say, hey, 459 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: from many bricks one pyramid. I think that would be 460 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 3: an incredibly depressing world, and too often we act that way. 461 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: But it's supposed to be from many stars, one constellation. 462 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 3: And that's how you can get unity without demanding uniformity. 463 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 3: You can get all the energy from diversity without succumbing 464 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 3: to division if we choose to think of ourselves and 465 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 3: those around us as stars in a constellation. And so 466 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: when I walk into the River cafe, I see this 467 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 3: constellation of talented people and of the customers eating there. 468 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 3: It's the opposite of hierarchical and the way you run 469 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 3: that place. So it's an inspired constellation to me, as 470 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: the process of writing it, eating was kind of the reward. 471 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 3: I mean, I basically write all morning and just drink 472 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,640 Speaker 3: a lot of coffee and write and eat. At the end, 473 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 3: I got my days writing down and then I could 474 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,960 Speaker 3: go enjoy something to eat. And I'm trying to kind 475 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 3: of stick with that. 476 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: When we talk about food and children and family, we 477 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 2: talk about being together, the influence of food, the connection 478 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 2: through food, and I think my memory is being together 479 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: in Tuscany with your children and making zucchini flowers and 480 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: making believes and cooking together. We hadn't seen each other 481 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: for a few months. You'd been in the United States, 482 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 2: I'd been here. We've all been doing what we did. 483 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 2: And I think the first thing you arrived at about 484 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 2: four o'clock in the afternoon at five and said we're starving. 485 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: You'd come, I think from Sardinia, and it was just 486 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 2: in immediacy, and also it was for me a way 487 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: of being with your children in the kitchen and doing 488 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 2: something together, connecting. So I think if food is a 489 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 2: connection and it's a way of expressing our love, it 490 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: is also a comfort, yes, And so we when we're hungry, 491 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 2: we when we want to show off, we eat, when 492 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 2: we want to have a laugh, but sometimes we eat 493 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 2: for comfort. So is there a food that you turn 494 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: to for comfort? 495 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 3: I do, and it's probably it's back to when I 496 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: was eleven and this was the other thing I would 497 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 3: cook for the grown ups when they came on Friday night, 498 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 3: and it was harder for me, and I still it 499 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 3: is probably my number one comfort food, and it is 500 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 3: chicken parmesan. I mean sort of New England, you know, 501 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 3: not fancy. I mean, you know, breaded, fried and then 502 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 3: put in the oven. And I just love that. So 503 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 3: that's what I will eat if someone else will cook 504 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 3: it for me, or I will make it myself. 505 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 2: Thank you, Matthew. 506 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,880 Speaker 3: Thank you. 507 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: To visit the online shop of the go to shop 508 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: Therivercafe dot co dot uk. 509 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: River Cafe Table four is a production of iHeartRadio and 510 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: Adamized Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 511 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.