1
00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:03,800
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody. Josh here and for this week's Select I've

2
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,400
Speaker 1: chosen our episode on think tanks from September twenty eighteen.

3
00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280
Speaker 1: It's a common misconception that our elected officials in Washington

4
00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,720
Speaker 1: and the state capitals and everywhere else make the laws

5
00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: and the policy that they introduce. In most cases, they

6
00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,120
Speaker 1: do not do that. That's up to special interest groups.

7
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:23,560
Speaker 1: And once upon a time, think tanks were one of

8
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,480
Speaker 1: those groups. And even accounting for political bent, the policy

9
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,520
Speaker 1: they suggested lawmakers was sound and unbiased. It was good stuff,

10
00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,920
Speaker 1: in other words. But that's not the case any longer.

11
00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,320
Speaker 1: As we learned in this episode, think tanks are open

12
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,040
Speaker 1: for business and the US is far the worse off

13
00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,560
Speaker 1: for it. Hope you enjoy this episode. Hope it opens

14
00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:43,040
Speaker 1: your eyes.

15
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:52,760
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

16
00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,360
Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, Charles

17
00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,000
Speaker 1: w Chuck Bryant, and Jerry's over there actually sitting in today,

18
00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,880
Speaker 1: and this is stuff you should know about think tanks,

19
00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 1: the thinking this kind of tanks. There are fish tanks.

20
00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:14,039
Speaker 1: They don't think at all, well, they barely think. They think.

21
00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 1: This water feels a little warm for me, and then

22
00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,679
Speaker 1: they think what's water, what's being wet? And then that's

23
00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 1: about it.

24
00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,520
Speaker 2: And then they're like, how about some of those tasty flakes?

25
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, give me some, and that's its. Think tanks. There's

26
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:29,559
Speaker 1: a lot more thinking going on in these.

27
00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:31,280
Speaker 2: Kind of tanks, more like stink tanks.

28
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:37,280
Speaker 1: It depends on your opinion, and that's everybody's opinion. So yes,

29
00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 1: I guess they are more like stink tanks these days.

30
00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,240
Speaker 2: This is one of those weird ones where I for

31
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:48,440
Speaker 2: forty seven years, I've just sort of had this. I

32
00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,600
Speaker 2: never dug in on what a think tank was. I

33
00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,120
Speaker 2: hear it, and now I kind of assumed I knew

34
00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:53,480
Speaker 2: what it was.

35
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,240
Speaker 1: I was kind of right, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's good.

36
00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,880
Speaker 1: It's a good term for something.

37
00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:59,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like with this, is this like a

38
00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 2: bunch of smart people sitting around thinking about smart stuff?

39
00:02:03,280 --> 00:02:05,880
Speaker 1: Exactly? That's kind of right, That's exactly what it is.

40
00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,200
Speaker 1: It's ideally, it's like a place where people sit around

41
00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:15,400
Speaker 1: and think about things that eventually hopefully affects public policy

42
00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 1: in a positive way, is what you're ultimately hoping for.

43
00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and by think we don't mean if you went

44
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:23,959
Speaker 2: by a think tank, they would all just be sitting

45
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,000
Speaker 2: around going hmmm.

46
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,480
Speaker 1: I think it depends on the day of the week

47
00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: or if it's right after lunch.

48
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 2: Like, there's a ton of research and study. Oh, I

49
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:34,480
Speaker 2: see it, stuff like that.

50
00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:36,040
Speaker 1: They're not just pulling stuff out of thin air.

51
00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:36,840
Speaker 2: No.

52
00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 1: No, that's the point of think tanks is they are

53
00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: groups of people, nonprofit organizations. In the US we should say.

54
00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, which we'll get to the finer points of that.

55
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,880
Speaker 1: Who say, you know what, we see this problem in

56
00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 1: America and or the world or wherever. Great Britain has

57
00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:57,799
Speaker 1: plenty of China has a bunch, and they say, how

58
00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,800
Speaker 1: can we solve this problem? Let's get too. We're going

59
00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,640
Speaker 1: to take this problem on and figure it out through

60
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:09,520
Speaker 1: pragmatic science and evidence based research. We're going to come

61
00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 1: up with a solution to this problem. And then the

62
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,680
Speaker 1: next step is to get it out there to the public,

63
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,000
Speaker 1: to policymakers, to get people talking about it. And then

64
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,440
Speaker 1: once enough people talk about it and there's a public

65
00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,800
Speaker 1: debate over it, ideally, if it's a good idea, it

66
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,880
Speaker 1: will be adopted as public policy and that problem will

67
00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: be solved in a good way.

68
00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's the ideal function of an ideal think tank,

69
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 2: which is to say, it is nonpartisan, it is fact based,

70
00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,520
Speaker 2: and it doesn't have an agenda necessarily. But things have

71
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:49,000
Speaker 2: changed over the years, as we will see.

72
00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 1: Fairly recently, Chuck seems like.

73
00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 2: And think tanks can be very much slanted. But we'll

74
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:57,920
Speaker 2: get into all that. That's just sort of a long

75
00:03:57,960 --> 00:03:58,600
Speaker 2: winded setup.

76
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 1: Okay, that was a good man.

77
00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,200
Speaker 2: Should we go back and check on our buddy Plato?

78
00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 1: So great?

79
00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Plato his academy. The Academy was some people

80
00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:13,480
Speaker 2: say it was sort of the world's first think tank,

81
00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,040
Speaker 2: which makes sense. Yeah. He would get dudes and they

82
00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:19,680
Speaker 2: would sit around in the garden and I would imagine

83
00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:25,560
Speaker 2: drink wine and talk smarts and philosophy and kind of

84
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:29,480
Speaker 2: you know, like it was high minded stuff for the day,

85
00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 2: to sit around and think about sort of what was

86
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 2: going on around them and how they could impact change.

87
00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, or thinking about the nature of reality or existence.

88
00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,880
Speaker 1: They once decided that knowledge was uncertain and life is

89
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 1: essentially a craps game based on probability rather than absolute truth.

90
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:51,960
Speaker 1: If you step back and think about it, that is

91
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,120
Speaker 1: the basis of quantum mechanics.

92
00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,640
Speaker 2: Could you imagine if they had access to LSD back then.

93
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,600
Speaker 1: I know, I don't think it would have been too

94
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:02,440
Speaker 1: terribly different.

95
00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,560
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, they were sort of traveling down that road anyway.

96
00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,120
Speaker 1: But that was I mean, that's pretty impressive some of

97
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,080
Speaker 1: the stuff they came up with. This is again, you know,

98
00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:14,599
Speaker 1: we did a skeptics episode, skepticism episode or no, I'm sorry,

99
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,719
Speaker 1: not skepticism, stoicism and remember this is oh yeah, this

100
00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 1: is where this stuff was. All these different philosophies were

101
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,599
Speaker 1: all like kind of grew from this academy. So yeah,

102
00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,760
Speaker 1: you can make a pretty good case that it was

103
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,360
Speaker 1: the world's first think tank. Yeah, it's a little it's

104
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,080
Speaker 1: not the first modern think tank, but it qualifies in

105
00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:33,919
Speaker 1: a lot of ways.

106
00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,320
Speaker 2: No, there was one. In eighteen thirty one in Great Britain,

107
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,560
Speaker 2: the Duke of Wellington established what was called the Royal

108
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:42,720
Speaker 2: United Services Institution.

109
00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,520
Speaker 1: Which studied like military science.

110
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then here in the US in nineteen ten

111
00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,400
Speaker 2: the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

112
00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,599
Speaker 1: Which studied the results of military science.

113
00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:57,040
Speaker 2: Right, and that's still around Carnegie, man, I mean, they

114
00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 2: still have endowed many things.

115
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,120
Speaker 1: They're well in doubt, they are very well doubt.

116
00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,320
Speaker 2: And then of course the Brookings Institution which may be

117
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:13,760
Speaker 2: the most famous modern American think tank to this day.

118
00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,520
Speaker 2: This is one you probably hear about the most. It

119
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,200
Speaker 2: was founded by Robert Brookings in nineteen sixteen, and they

120
00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:22,680
Speaker 2: had a lot of I mean, they still have a

121
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,520
Speaker 2: lot of influence, but they had a great deal of

122
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,080
Speaker 2: influence kind of post depression with FDR's New Deal, helped

123
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:32,200
Speaker 2: construct the New Deal, helped construct the Marshall Plan after

124
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:32,920
Speaker 2: World War Two.

125
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,560
Speaker 1: That was huge.

126
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,200
Speaker 2: Yoh, very huge. So like both were for sure.

127
00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: The New Deal definitely was. But the Marshall Plan is

128
00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:42,720
Speaker 1: there was a survey done of I think like four

129
00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty historians and the number one most important

130
00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,279
Speaker 1: thing that any government has done since World War Two,

131
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:55,640
Speaker 1: between World War Two and the twenty first century was

132
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,520
Speaker 1: the Marshall Plan. Like it not only like brought Europe

133
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,719
Speaker 1: back from World War Two, it set Europe on a

134
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,920
Speaker 1: path away from communism. Yeah, where if you're not into communism,

135
00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 1: that was a great positive benefit, right Yeah. And the

136
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,760
Speaker 1: way it did that was in two years, based on

137
00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,320
Speaker 1: this economic plan. In two years, it got Europe war

138
00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,480
Speaker 1: ravaged World War two ravaged Europe back to production levels

139
00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,160
Speaker 1: twenty five percent higher than the production levels it was

140
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: at before World War Two in two years, so it

141
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,440
Speaker 1: just went back to normal plus twenty five percent better,

142
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,640
Speaker 1: and Europe said, I kind of like this capitalism thing,

143
00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:36,720
Speaker 1: and Western Europe went that way.

144
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:42,160
Speaker 2: I was kind of curious because Brookings, the Brookings Institution

145
00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,000
Speaker 2: gets a lot of like left leaning criticism today, so

146
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,560
Speaker 2: I kind of wonder where that all came from. And

147
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,560
Speaker 2: the article I read said that is a victory of

148
00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:59,080
Speaker 2: the conservative side to have Brookings labeled liberal just from

149
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,520
Speaker 2: kind of pounding it the press, even though it's history

150
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 2: and its member board throughout the history has not been

151
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,720
Speaker 2: liberal at all, and it has been filled from the

152
00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 2: top down over the years with rank and file Republicans

153
00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,600
Speaker 2: and conservatives from like the Reagan era on through Bush

154
00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 2: one and two.

155
00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,160
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so they've gotten it across as liberal so

156
00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 1: that liberals will swallow the stuff that Brookings is putting

157
00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,160
Speaker 1: out there. No, I know what they undermine their own

158
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:29,679
Speaker 1: think tank.

159
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,600
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it's not their own think tank.

160
00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:34,160
Speaker 2: It's not a conservative think tank.

161
00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:36,480
Speaker 1: Well, it's centric. It's like almost right down the middle for.

162
00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,800
Speaker 2: Me, right, But I think they want to advance their

163
00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:43,360
Speaker 2: own with their conservative thing tanks. They want to advance them,

164
00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 2: so they label Brookings as super liberal.

165
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,960
Speaker 1: I got you, So anything centrist is liberal.

166
00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 2: I think I got the way it's going down.

167
00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:51,280
Speaker 1: That's what it is.

168
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

169
00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,840
Speaker 1: I can't remember who scored it, but somebody has a

170
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,640
Speaker 1: liberal score between zero and one hundred for think tanks,

171
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,160
Speaker 1: and Brookings scored like a fifty three, right down the middle. Like, apparently,

172
00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,040
Speaker 1: as far as think tanks go, it's about as centrist

173
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:07,240
Speaker 1: as you possibly can get.

174
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they've been around for a long time. Yeah,

175
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:11,520
Speaker 2: makes a lot of sense.

176
00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:16,000
Speaker 1: Yep, So not just Brookings. Brookings is definitely one of

177
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 1: the most famous around the world and has done quite

178
00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 1: a bit of stuff, but there's plenty of others. There's

179
00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 1: the Rand Corporation is a very famous think tank, which

180
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,600
Speaker 1: did you know. Rand is actually a I don't know

181
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,480
Speaker 1: what you'd call it, but it's supposed to. It started

182
00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:34,199
Speaker 1: out as R and D Research and Development RAND Corporation,

183
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 1: and from what I understand, they've come up with the

184
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:43,640
Speaker 1: ideas for computers, the Internet, spy satellites, the Space program,

185
00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,760
Speaker 1: all that stuff that America did in the mid twentieth century. Technologically, yes, yeah,

186
00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,880
Speaker 1: the RAND Corporation, like thinkers, were the ones who came

187
00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:52,760
Speaker 1: up with this stuff.

188
00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I knew some of that, and I

189
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,440
Speaker 2: don't think it fully hit home that they were a

190
00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,679
Speaker 2: think tank. Yeah, with the name like the Rancore Right

191
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,720
Speaker 2: sounds like just a corporation.

192
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 1: But they're they're like a think tank that's really specifically

193
00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:13,600
Speaker 1: or was specifically zoned into America's technology progression. I guess.

194
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean a lot of think tanks can be

195
00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,680
Speaker 2: specialized like that, Like some are very very much just

196
00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 2: concentrate on economics, some concentrate on social issues in that

197
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 2: case technology, and then I think some like Brookings are

198
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,600
Speaker 2: sort of a little more broad. Yeah, they'll they'll take.

199
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 1: Any case, right, they'll take all comer.

200
00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

201
00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,680
Speaker 1: So after World War Two, like there were think tanks before,

202
00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,600
Speaker 1: like you said, Brookings, Carnegie, the Royal United Services Institute

203
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,200
Speaker 1: in the UK, there were, like there were think tanks

204
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,400
Speaker 1: prior to World War Two, but after World War Two

205
00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,120
Speaker 1: they really proliferated. And the reason they started was government

206
00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:55,640
Speaker 1: was just kind of government it was in the in

207
00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 1: the early twentieth century. It was just just this. It

208
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,120
Speaker 1: was It wasn't anything like you see it now. It

209
00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 1: wasn't this monolithic behemoth that has its tendrils in every

210
00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,160
Speaker 1: aspect of people's lives or anything. It was a little

211
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,240
Speaker 1: too far the other way where it didn't quite know

212
00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,960
Speaker 1: what it was doing. So some of those early philanthropists

213
00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:19,960
Speaker 1: like Carnegie and Brookings, they endowed these think tanks to

214
00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,120
Speaker 1: kind of help government out, to basically be like the

215
00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,760
Speaker 1: research arm for government to help direct the best way

216
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 1: for America to go. And that's how it started out.

217
00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,600
Speaker 1: And then after World War Two, when America had like

218
00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,040
Speaker 1: all this cash and all this forward momentum, think tanks

219
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,720
Speaker 1: really popped up and there were all these kind of

220
00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:46,080
Speaker 1: competing and then sometimes harmonious voices from these think tanks

221
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,120
Speaker 1: to say go this way, go this way, let's go

222
00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:51,280
Speaker 1: this way. But they all had something in common, and

223
00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,400
Speaker 1: that was that they were staffed by very smart people

224
00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,720
Speaker 1: who did very deliberate, very good research, who produced policy

225
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,040
Speaker 1: pusicians that lawmakers could then take themselves and go out

226
00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,000
Speaker 1: to the people and say, see, this is what I'm

227
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 1: talking about, here's the data, here's a SoundBite for you

228
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,560
Speaker 1: to make you all understand it. That's what things tanks did,

229
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 1: and in a way they very much were along the

230
00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:20,000
Speaker 1: same track as lobby lobbyists which we did an episode

231
00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:22,720
Speaker 1: on that that was pretty good too. But think tanks

232
00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,440
Speaker 1: stopped short of lobbying allegedly.

233
00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they kind of had to. Starting in nineteen thirteen,

234
00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 2: they were granted tax exempt status, which is a very

235
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,040
Speaker 2: big deal because there's a lot of money involved in

236
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:36,040
Speaker 2: many of these.

237
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,760
Speaker 1: I've been trying to get that for myself for years, Sax,

238
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:40,800
Speaker 1: and you're right, it is a very big deal.

239
00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,360
Speaker 2: The Church of Josh just get it going.

240
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,240
Speaker 1: That's so I'm wearing this robe right now.

241
00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,120
Speaker 2: In the nineteen fifties, though, is when Congress really kind

242
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,480
Speaker 2: of because they were tax exempt, had to get involved

243
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,280
Speaker 2: and say, hey, listen, you got to walk a line here.

244
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 2: You politically, you can't if you want to keep this

245
00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 2: tax exemption. Now, yeah, we for sure do. They said,

246
00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,960
Speaker 2: you can't be partisan, it's got to be good information.

247
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 2: You can't slant things a certain way or support officially

248
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,960
Speaker 2: support or endorsed candidates. You are here to educate with

249
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,640
Speaker 2: your objective work. And that went along for a while,

250
00:13:19,679 --> 00:13:23,040
Speaker 2: and then we started getting think tanks that set out

251
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:28,079
Speaker 2: to do just that, which they are called advocacy think

252
00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,360
Speaker 2: tanks now, which I'm not sure how they managed to

253
00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,040
Speaker 2: skirt unless they change the rules, skirt those rules and

254
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 2: say hey, we're going to be a conservative think tank

255
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 2: or liberal think tank and still be tax exempt.

256
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: The do you know, The only thing that I can

257
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 1: tell is that they're still technically producing a public good,

258
00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:53,920
Speaker 1: or if they believe that they're producing a public good,

259
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,600
Speaker 1: even if they have conservative alignment or a liberal alignment.

260
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,760
Speaker 1: They're trying to move society along in a way that

261
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,040
Speaker 1: they think is good or for the betterment of society.

262
00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:05,480
Speaker 2: That's what stuff you should know is, dude, That's what

263
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,600
Speaker 2: I've been telling I mean, could we be a think tank?

264
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 3: No?

265
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,120
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. I mean think about it, like I mean,

266
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 1: I guess we could. I think that there's a I don't. Okay,

267
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,600
Speaker 1: let me take that back. No, we absolutely couldn't because we.

268
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 2: Can't be brought to you by.

269
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,000
Speaker 1: We don't have we don't have time. I don't know,

270
00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 1: that's a good question, but we don't have. Yeah, you

271
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,960
Speaker 1: couldn't advertise and have like you couldn't get advertiser money

272
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,280
Speaker 1: and be tax exempt.

273
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: That's just yeah. Like I doubt if the Brookings institutions

274
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 2: papers have like Burger King coupons on them.

275
00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,560
Speaker 1: You never know they should So we'll get to why

276
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,360
Speaker 1: we can't be later on. Okay, But one of the

277
00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 1: things about about think tanks is they're they're the reason

278
00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:50,480
Speaker 1: they have a tax exempt status is what they're doing

279
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,160
Speaker 1: is producing work that furthers the public good. Yeah, that's

280
00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,800
Speaker 1: why they're supposed to have tax exempt status. What you're

281
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 1: pointing out is a really good thing to point out.

282
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,760
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, there's a lot of stuff here that

283
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,360
Speaker 1: they could lose their tax exempt status for. And if

284
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 1: we fast forward to three or five years from now,

285
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,360
Speaker 1: I think we're going to start seeing them lose tax

286
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: exempt status. They just haven't yet, I think, is what

287
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:14,600
Speaker 1: it is.

288
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, because some of them flat out like it's so

289
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:21,360
Speaker 2: obvious when they come around, Like when the Democrats were

290
00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 2: beaten in two thousand, they got together and they started

291
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,400
Speaker 2: left leaning thinkers got together and started the Center for

292
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 2: American Progress, which is an economic organization. It says this nonpartisan,

293
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,600
Speaker 2: but it literally says as a quote, their goal is

294
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,800
Speaker 2: to develop new policy ideas, critique the policy that stems

295
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,560
Speaker 2: from conservative values, challenges the media to cover the issues

296
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 2: that truly matter and shape the national debate. So it's

297
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 2: they're kind of flat out saying like we're out to

298
00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,640
Speaker 2: prove not just have an opinion about maybe that's a distinction,

299
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:04,920
Speaker 2: out to prove that conservative economic values are bad for

300
00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:09,240
Speaker 2: the country. Basically, Yeah, is that the difference. Maybe here's

301
00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 2: our data.

302
00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 1: I honestly don't know, dude.

303
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,040
Speaker 2: It's not a bunch of op eds thrown together.

304
00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,520
Speaker 1: It's so No, it's not supposed to just be op eds.

305
00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be backed by data. Yeah, but I

306
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 1: mean like Center for American Progress or like the Heritage Foundation,

307
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,280
Speaker 1: or like ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, like these

308
00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,800
Speaker 1: are like and we're going to do a whole episode

309
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,080
Speaker 1: just on ALEC one day. Okay, seriously, Yeah, but they're

310
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,920
Speaker 1: like little They're like Kareem abdul Jabbar, like karate training

311
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:45,920
Speaker 1: islands for liberals or for conservatives or for rich billionaire followers,

312
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:48,840
Speaker 1: like it doesn't matter, Like that's what they are. They

313
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 1: come up with new ideas to push their agenda, and

314
00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,560
Speaker 1: then they train activists to go out and get that

315
00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,240
Speaker 1: message out, to change people's minds, to get themselves on

316
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 1: CNN or Fox News or whatever, right, and to shape

317
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,320
Speaker 1: the public discussion on something. It has a lot of

318
00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 1: the contours of what think tanks used to have.

319
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:09,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's this whole.

320
00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,240
Speaker 1: Other layer of like like seeing you and gristle there

321
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,680
Speaker 1: that think tanks aren't supposed to have.

322
00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 2: Should we take a break? Sure, all right, we'll take

323
00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,640
Speaker 2: a break and we'll talk a little bit more about

324
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 2: the Heritage Foundation right after this. All right, nineteen eighties,

325
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 2: the Heritage Foundation, which you briefly mentored, mentored.

326
00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,640
Speaker 1: Sure, that's the new mentioned before.

327
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 2: Before we broke. They came about and we broke a

328
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,040
Speaker 2: long time ago. They said, all right, teen eighties, we

329
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 2: got Ronald Reagan in there. He is watching movies or

330
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,000
Speaker 2: asleep most of the time, so we have a good opportunity.

331
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 2: That's how they want you to think he has a

332
00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,359
Speaker 2: good Did you see the numbers about his movie watching?

333
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:14,920
Speaker 1: No?

334
00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 2: Oh man, it's great. What like a movie fan? It's great?

335
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 1: How many movies did he watch? Your day?

336
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 2: He watched a lot of movies.

337
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 1: And this is like back when they just had like reels, right, films, trips.

338
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 2: I guess they probably just you know, cued the projector

339
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,440
Speaker 2: when he and Nancy wanted to watch a good old

340
00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,879
Speaker 2: fashioned western. Oh that was a good starring me.

341
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,200
Speaker 1: Can you do the rest of the episode as.

342
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 2: No, So they came along and they said, all right,

343
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:44,080
Speaker 2: Reagan's in office, here are our recommendations. What UPI would

344
00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 2: call a blueprint for grabbing the government by its frayed

345
00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:51,119
Speaker 2: New Deal lapels and shaking out forty eight years of

346
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 2: liberal policy. And it came by way of two thousand,

347
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:57,440
Speaker 2: more than two thousand recommendations.

348
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they tried to institute about two thirds of them.

349
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, was like, great, here's my thanks for the outline

350
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 2: for what I should do.

351
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:07,560
Speaker 1: Right my plans.

352
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, so two thirds, like he said during his two terms,

353
00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 2: is what he tried to implement. And then, of course

354
00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,720
Speaker 2: when Bill Clinton gets in there, the Progressive Policy Institute,

355
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was two thousand plus, but

356
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 2: they offered similar recommendations. And that's how it goes with

357
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: think tanks right now.

358
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, because if you're a lawmaker, and again we said

359
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: this in the Lobbying episode two, you're not necessarily like

360
00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:34,920
Speaker 1: some smart whip crack sharp person.

361
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 2: No, I think we've seen that played out.

362
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,439
Speaker 1: You can just like get people to vote for you, Yeah,

363
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:42,880
Speaker 1: on both sides of the aisle. Just a crack at

364
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,080
Speaker 1: like you know Trump or anything.

365
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,199
Speaker 2: Oh no, no, no, I mean all up and down the

366
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 2: House and Senate.

367
00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 3: Right.

368
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 2: You don't like to think they're all geniuses, but they're not.

369
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,879
Speaker 1: They're not. No, And you don't have to be smart

370
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: to hold office. You just have to get people to

371
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,480
Speaker 1: vote for you. Again, which is why think tanks have

372
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: flourished for so long while lobbyists have flourished for so long,

373
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 1: because they're the ones who do the research and write

374
00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,640
Speaker 1: the policy and say, yeah, here you go, you want

375
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 1: to go look smart, here you go, buddy. We even

376
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 1: like highlighted some sound bites for you to go say

377
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:15,719
Speaker 1: to people and get the get into the twenty four

378
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 1: hour news cycle.

379
00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

380
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 1: And that's one of the big roles that think tanks

381
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 1: play today is by and have you know, especially since

382
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,119
Speaker 1: World War Two, is by going to policymakers and being like,

383
00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 1: here's your agenda, take your leave as much as you want.

384
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: But all of this is back by data, like it

385
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,360
Speaker 1: dovetails with what you want to do with the country,

386
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,000
Speaker 1: and it is just gangbusters stuff. Yeah, high quality, well

387
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:38,879
Speaker 1: researched stuff.

388
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's really interesting because I think there are still

389
00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:48,479
Speaker 2: think tanks that only craft, only do research and present

390
00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 2: it and say do what you will with it, but

391
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 2: those seem to be more and more gone by the wayside.

392
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty ten was a real watershed year. It feels

393
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 1: like for think tanks.

394
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, like you mentioned ALEX, which are going to cover

395
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:06,439
Speaker 2: in full, but I mean they are a bill writing organization.

396
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 2: They call them model bills. But I mean when when

397
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:11,879
Speaker 2: you hear a senator or something said, you know, we

398
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 2: crafted this legislation, well, that probably means is an organization

399
00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,439
Speaker 2: like ALEC handed them the legislation and said here, you know,

400
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 2: here it is if you want to use it, right,

401
00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:24,400
Speaker 2: and you probably should want to use it.

402
00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,479
Speaker 1: That's so. That is so ALEC, I think does in

403
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,159
Speaker 1: many ways qualify as a think tank. They're not one

404
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 1: hundred percent standard think tank, but actually writing the law. Yeah,

405
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,240
Speaker 1: and for the lawmaker to go and go into Congress

406
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 1: and introduce it as their own bill, right, that's a

407
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: little beyond what think tanks to think tanks more like

408
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: write a paper that says, here's this problem in America,

409
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 1: here are some ideas to solve it. Here's this research

410
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 1: to back up those ideas, go write a law based

411
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: on it. What things like ALEC does is take it

412
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: a step further. But ALEX still qualifies as a think tank,

413
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:06,160
Speaker 1: and ALEC is part of something called the State Policy Network, Yeah,

414
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: which apparently there's one in every state and Puerto Rico.

415
00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 1: And they're like a confederation of think tanks that basically

416
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 1: sit around and figure out ways to sue local, state

417
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 1: and federal lawmakers over laws, to try to get laws overturned.

418
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: Like they use the courts rather than the legislation, but

419
00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: it's still the stated goal is to affect public policy

420
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: and turn it in one direction or another.

421
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, what was what was the website that you sent

422
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 2: that watch? Yeah? Sourcewatch called them called ALEC a corporate

423
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: to Bill mill, right, So they are just churning out

424
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 2: hundreds of bills a year. Not all of them get used,

425
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: but many of them do. And it's just I don't know,

426
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,119
Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of Americans realize that a

427
00:22:54,160 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 2: lot of actual legislative policy is being written by McDonald's. Yeah, exactly.

428
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: It's crazy.

429
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,160
Speaker 1: I can't wait to do the ALQ one. We're both

430
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: going to be well, our cars are going to blow

431
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: up right after, but by god, we're going to get

432
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: that episode.

433
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: Maybe we should make that our like last episode in

434
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,760
Speaker 2: the year. Whatever. What's twenty years.

435
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: From now two thousand.

436
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 2: No, that was eighteen years ago. Okay, I used to

437
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,920
Speaker 2: love that bit though. Yeah, all right, so we got

438
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,719
Speaker 2: to talk about money here, got because this they are

439
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 2: not the independent most times these days they are not

440
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: the independent organizations that you think they are. Uh. They

441
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,320
Speaker 2: used to be funded by these endowments, and more and

442
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 2: more it's it's corporations, large businesses. Sometimes private individuals of

443
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 2: course will give. And sometimes it's a great workaround for

444
00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 2: campaign finance laws. Instead of directing you know, you know,

445
00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: tens of millions of dollars like you can't do to

446
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 2: a campaign, you can throw it in a think tank

447
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 2: that will probably get a better result anyway.

448
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,479
Speaker 1: That's new the time was. It used to be like

449
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: in my day, right, a rich philanthropist would say, I

450
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: hate poverty and the effects it has on Americans. Go

451
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: figure this out. I'm going to fund a think tank,

452
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: and that's what you're dedicated to. I like, just go

453
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: make that happen. And that's what think tanks were originally

454
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 1: born from. And that's largely the only kind of oversight

455
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: they worked under is they were trying to end poverty

456
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:37,800
Speaker 1: or they were trying to work against communism, like these

457
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 1: huge haughty goals. Yeah, now they're being micromanaged. That's one

458
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 1: thing that's happening to them.

459
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the idea that these think tanks are not

460
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: swayed or influence or affected by their donors is not true.

461
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 2: And the sort of the biggest problem going is that

462
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: now you have legislation being drawn up by think tanks

463
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:05,199
Speaker 2: because corporations are paying money to get research that looks

464
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 2: like it's in their favor.

465
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. So one of the problems is the like, there's

466
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: not as many philanthropists who are just endowing think tanks

467
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: with no strings attached anymore. There are plenty of philanthropists

468
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 1: out there still that are funding think tanks, but their

469
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: donations are directed, their results oriented. They're very technocratic, right,

470
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: they want to see bang for their buck. Whereas before

471
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: it was just like to make America a better place

472
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 1: and that was it. There wasn't a lot.

473
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: Of like.

474
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: Nobody's feet were being held to the fire, you know.

475
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 1: Now it's like, we want you to further this specific agenda,

476
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 1: which is we want to make sure that Saint Louis's

477
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: children there's not a single one malnourished any longer, which

478
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: is great. It's a great goal. There's nothing wrong with

479
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: that goal, but it's just so very narrowed and tay

480
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 1: and there's ways that you can hold the think tank accountable,

481
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: which is good in one hand, but it's also basically

482
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: the introduction of like a corporate management to think tanks,

483
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 1: which that's not really how they were originally formed, and

484
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: it's having a weird effect on them. So think tanks

485
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: are starting to say, all right, thank you for this money,

486
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: We'll go save the children of Saint Louis. And by

487
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: the way, shout out to Saint Louis. That was a

488
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: great show.

489
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 2: That what a cool down.

490
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 1: So again, saving the children of Saint Louis good stuff,

491
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: But we've got all this other stuff we want to

492
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: do too, So to keep that going, we're going to

493
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 1: have to also go find sources elsewhere, right, and again

494
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: you can find them from other people, but one of

495
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: the places they're finding them from his corporations, and that

496
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,640
Speaker 1: is having a big negative impact on think tanks right now.

497
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it goes both ways. In the past, you know,

498
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,680
Speaker 2: eight or ten years, conservative billionaires of says that here

499
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: they funneled one hundred and twenty million dollars to about

500
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 2: one hundred grew and think tanks to do things like

501
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 2: discredit climate change science, which I mean, dude, I know.

502
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: The Koch Brothers and Exon Mobile specifically funded a couple

503
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 1: of think tanks called Atlas Economic Research Foundation and the

504
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: International Policy Network to basically to basically question the science

505
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: behind climate change to further fossil fuel interests, which is,

506
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: see you guys in hell for that one. Like that,

507
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,439
Speaker 1: What a crummy legacy to leave on Earth just to

508
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: make a few extra bucks. Forget future generations they can

509
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: all burn. Forget all the endangered species that are on

510
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: the brink of extinction that are oh wait no, they're

511
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: now extinct. It doesn't matter because we made a few

512
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 1: extra billion dollars. Yeah, that's that's despicable.

513
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 2: Well, what it's funny. I just watched the movie Chinatown

514
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,479
Speaker 2: for a movie crush episode and there's that. You ever

515
00:27:59,560 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: seen that?

516
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: Yeah?

517
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: You know a lot of that movie is about It

518
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 2: was originally titled Water and Power, you know, because it's about,

519
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: you know, this weird political situation in Los Angeles in

520
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties where they were diverting water to the valley

521
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,479
Speaker 2: which was a desert and all these rich fat cats

522
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 2: that were getting the water diverted. There were buying up

523
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 2: land in the valley like hundreds of thousands of acres

524
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 2: because they knew it was going to be a lush

525
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 2: green valley soon. So all that really happened in La

526
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: Chinatown was based on that. But there's that great scene

527
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: when Jack Nicholson is Jake Gettis, confronts John Houston about

528
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: you know, he's the big bad guy Noah Cross and

529
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 2: he says, you know, how much money do you need?

530
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 2: How much how many more things can you buy? Or

531
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: this or that? And he says, what are you trying

532
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 2: to secure? And he looked at him and he said,

533
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: the future, mister Gettis, And that's what it is. They're

534
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: not after more billions to buy more plain in a

535
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: bigger house, right, They're trying to leave that they that's

536
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: what they want out of their legacy. Is they're trying

537
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: to affect the future and in their own specific way, right.

538
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: But they're affecting the future in the worst way.

539
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 2: Possible according to us. And the problem is not according

540
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 2: to them, sure, you know, but if.

541
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: You if you pull enough people and just ask them plainly,

542
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: if you took money and billionaires in power and sure

543
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: and all that out of it. Do you want a

544
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: better future for humanity and for earth? Yeah, one hundred

545
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: years from now, I would guess the majority of people

546
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: would say yes. And if you can say, well, these

547
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: guys are actually doing the opposite of ensuring that right

548
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: right now, how do you feel about that? Most people

549
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: would say I don't feel so great about that.

550
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah.

551
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: The problem is is most people would also follow up with,

552
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: but what can we do?

553
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: Right?

554
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: They're rich, and that's a great point. Let me what

555
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: can you do?

556
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 2: Let me hop back on Facebook and find a goat video.

557
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: Right. That's when the hopelessness sets in. And that's what's

558
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: causing the paralysis in our world right now, is hopelessness.

559
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: That's not grim at all of it. By the way, everybody,

560
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: be sure to listen to my new podcast, The End

561
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: of the World with Josh Clark.

562
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

563
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: It's a really.

564
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: Uplifting coming very soon.

565
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, coming this fall sometime eventually.

566
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: Just stuck up on your happy bills. So. In twenty thirteen, however,

567
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 2: on the other side, left leaning weekly magazine The Nation

568
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,200
Speaker 2: revealed the positions of the left leaning Center for American

569
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: Progress and other thing tanks in DC are shaped by

570
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 2: interest of their donors. So it happens on both sides

571
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: of the aisle for sure.

572
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: Yeah oh yeah, yeah, No, it's an equal opportunity screwing

573
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: that the world is getting from lobbying from think tanks

574
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: from wealthy interests. Like, it's it's both both sides.

575
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they're effectively unregistered lobbyist organizations now to a

576
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 2: large degree, because they're tax exempt, they're not obligated to

577
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 2: release financial statements or reveal their donors. So I'm surprised

578
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 2: it took that long for people to be like, wait

579
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 2: a minute, we can really take advantage here.

580
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,960
Speaker 1: So let's take another break and then we'll get well, it

581
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: will spell out what the advantages are of hiring a

582
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: think tank. All right, Chuck, we're back. I'm a little

583
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 1: warm under the collar.

584
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 2: I feel like we should mention this thing with the

585
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: Walton Family Foundation quickly, because that's interesting.

586
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: I think this is a great example of what a

587
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: think tank can do these days.

588
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's obviously the Sam Walton family of walm aren't fame.

589
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 2: They fund a lot of conservative think tanks. I think

590
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 2: most people know that. But then they also fund funded

591
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 2: one and think tanks backed by Barack Obama when it

592
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: came to the Affordable health Care Act, and you're like,

593
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: wait a minute, why would they do something like that

594
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: if they're a conservative family supporting conservative causes. Then you

595
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: do a little poking around and it turns out that

596
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: critics would say that the healthcare bill that forced employers

597
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,239
Speaker 2: to pay for their employees healthcare tax. Walmart was like,

598
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 2: this is great because we can afford to do this,

599
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: but our mom and pop competitors can't. So we're actually

600
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: going to try and get this push through. Even though

601
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 2: at its face it doesn't quite make a lot of sense,

602
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: it makes sense to them, like why would Walmart take

603
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: on the cost of their employees' healthcare because they know

604
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 2: that they.

605
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 3: Can go back to sleep. Everybody, Yeah, stop asking quests.

606
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: Really interesting, it is, it's fascinating. But that's one thing

607
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: you can do is donate to a think tank that's

608
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: furthering your agenda. And because think tanks are now largely

609
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 3: agenda driven, there's a lot of think tanks out there

610
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: that can help you out. And there's a new thing

611
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 3: that's happening with think tanks these days is they're starting

612
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 3: to solicit corporate donations. And one of the saddest stories

613
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 3: is the story of the Brookings Institution, the most centrist

614
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 3: think tank that has put out the Marshall Plan that

615
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: helped figure out the New Deal and how it addressed

616
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 3: the depression, like has done all this amazing stuff. Is

617
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 3: now they hired a lobbyist for their strategic development chief

618
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 3: and they're now soliciting corporate donations left and right, and

619
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 3: they're basically this is what you can get, Like if

620
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: you hire a think tanker, I'm sorry, you're not supposed

621
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: to say higher. If you enter into a part ownership

622
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: or donate to a think tank and your corporation, we're

623
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: a very wealthy person. What the think tank will do

624
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 3: is they will basically get your ideas out there.

625
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: They will deploy. So first of all, let's say there's

626
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: this really great New York Times article about the what

627
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: was the name of that company, the Lenar Corporation. Okay,

628
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 1: they wanted to build in San Francisco. They wanted to

629
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: redevelop the site in San Francisco, which whatever, apparently there

630
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: was pushback on it or they were getting some sort

631
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 1: of pushback from the residents of San Francisco. So I

632
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: guess the Brookings Institution went to them and said, hey,

633
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 1: we've got some ideas for you. We can support this

634
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: as basically like a great idea for cities of the future,

635
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 1: and we're going to lend the credibility of our experts

636
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: in our think tank to your project. Yeah, and make

637
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: it like a champion kind of thing, like a blue

638
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: type and archetype for how to further cities in America

639
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 1: your development problem.

640
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: It's it.

641
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,879
Speaker 1: They're home builders, but with Brookings Institution behind it, there

642
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: was a veneer of something bigger than building homes, bigger

643
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 1: than redeveloping, something about the future and progress, and Brookings

644
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,240
Speaker 1: like went to them and in exchange for four hundred

645
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:22,760
Speaker 1: grand Brookings added this credibility to it, got talking heads

646
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 1: out there on the news to talk up this development

647
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: and like what it meant for the future. And one

648
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: of the other things they did and can do is

649
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 1: they can set up summits conferences on cities of the

650
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: future and get the home builders and lawmakers into the

651
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: same room to hang out together. And so that's lobbying. Sure,

652
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 1: there's no other way to put it. That is lobbying.

653
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: And they were doing it on behalf of a specific corporation,

654
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: there should be no tax exemption whatsoever any longer. It

655
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what side of the aisle you're on. If

656
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 1: you're a taxpayer, you are funding that by by through

657
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: these tax exemptions, because we put the bill for tax deduction. Sure,

658
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,800
Speaker 1: so if a single corporation's interests are being served, even

659
00:36:08,840 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: if society in general is benefiting in some way, that's

660
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: too much of a slippery slope that breaks the tax

661
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 1: exemption status. And then that that should go away. And that,

662
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: sadly is apparently where Brookings the direction Brookings is going. Yeah,

663
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 1: and others too, I should.

664
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: Say, oh sure, sure, even the ones that aren't maybe

665
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 2: as outright are aren't as bald faced about this stuff.

666
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: Like a lot of scholars say that you know, bought

667
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: and paid for research is sort of the exception. Still,

668
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 2: But even even so, there's still places where you know,

669
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,840
Speaker 2: you may not you may not push out certain research

670
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: if you think you're might piss off your boss.

671
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is the same thing.

672
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,920
Speaker 2: Or sort of self censor yourself if you think, like,

673
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: oh man, I don't know, like we're getting donations now,

674
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: like this might not ease them.

675
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: It might make them look bad. So I probably should

676
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: just avoid this conclusion.

677
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so maybe not of like completely inventing a study

678
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 2: or something, but being very selective in what you choose

679
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: to research or how you research it or what you release.

680
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 2: Sure is, you know, it's another version of the same thing.

681
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: It totally is. And one of the other things that

682
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: they've been found to do a lot of think tanks,

683
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: or one of the new things that think tanks do,

684
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: is they will circulate drafts before there's a final draft

685
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: two donors like what do you think about this? And

686
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: sometimes their opinions will be incorporated into the final draft.

687
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 1: That is the antithesis of the spirit of think tanks

688
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 1: and what they were originally meant to do. They were

689
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: supposed to be like, here's the facts, here's the research

690
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: to back it up. It is what it is. We

691
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: think you can apply it to make the world better

692
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 1: in this way, not what you know, What do you

693
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 1: guys think does this jibe with the kind of sinks

694
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,880
Speaker 1: you've selected for this redevelopment, because we can change this

695
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,760
Speaker 1: part to jibe with the sinks you you know, that's

696
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,080
Speaker 1: just not what it's supposed to be. And the reason

697
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: that think tanks are doing this is they are in

698
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 1: existential danger through the death of expertise that I remember

699
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: I talked about in the Elimination Diet episode.

700
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

701
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: The problem is, it's not like America just said, we're

702
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 1: sick of expertise. We're tired of you experts, like you're

703
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: always right, and we're tired of hearing you're always right.

704
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: People got tired of being lied to and misled and

705
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 1: misinformed and manipulated, and they finally said, you know what, experts,

706
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: that's enough. Enough of you are full of it. Enough

707
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: of you have let your credibility be co opted. We're

708
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 1: just not going to listen to any of you anymore

709
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: because we don't know who to trust. And the experts

710
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: brought about the death of expertise themselves in large parts.

711
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's another Uh. There was this article from

712
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 2: the Washington Post called or think tanks Obsolete, which sort

713
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: of argues along those lines about and also incorporates the

714
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 2: Internet and the length of like a research cycle, like

715
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 2: with the Internet and Twitter and Facebook and things like

716
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 2: ted Talks. There's a guy, Donald Abelson, a professor at

717
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: University of Western Ontario, wrote a book called The Thing

718
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: Tanks Matter, where his conclusion basically is that the marketplace

719
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: of ideas he says has become congested and you don't

720
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: have time anymore to do a twelve month research proposal

721
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 2: to come to the following conclusions when one hundred ted

722
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: talks over that twelve months will be published. Not picking

723
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 2: on ted talks are great.

724
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: No, it's a good example though.

725
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: But you can push out of ted talk. You can

726
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: push out a Facebook live video as an economist and

727
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: have a lot of sway. They mentioned in here in

728
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 2: the article about vaccines, for instance, as far as it

729
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 2: goes with the vaccines, the Rank Corporation, one of the

730
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 2: largest thing tanks that we already mentioned, they did like

731
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 2: a very thorough deep dive in research debunking the notion

732
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: that vaccines cause autism, and it took a long time.

733
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: But you can get on Facebook and go to a

734
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 2: group called Educate before you vaccinate and watch videos by

735
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,760
Speaker 2: non experts, and people are swayed these days by this stuff. Yeah,

736
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: like why wait, you know, the news cycle is so

737
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: shortened you can't wait for a long, deep dive research

738
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: paper to come out with some abstract summary that no

739
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 2: one reads anyway, And apparently now they're you know, they're

740
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 2: written in such a way where they will just say,

741
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 2: abstract summary, this stinks, we shouldn't do it. You know,

742
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: they've become so opinionated. I don't know, man, It's just

743
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: it's depressing to think that Facebook and Twitter have outsized

744
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: a think tank as far as they definitely have influence.

745
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and YouTube and basically anything that gives a voice

746
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: to the average person, which on the one hand is

747
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: really cool and great.

748
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,480
Speaker 2: Sort of democratizes it in a way, but in the

749
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: worst way at times.

750
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: But it's tied into this death of expertise in a

751
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 1: really toxic manner, you know what I'm saying, Like the

752
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: two that democratization of like giving everybody like a mouthpiece,

753
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: is not in and of itself like a bad thing,

754
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: but when since it coincided with a loss and trust

755
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: and experts and expertise, that's where the problem came from.

756
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: And that was the reason why we couldn't be a

757
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: think tank. Sadly, we could be a think tank now,

758
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: but we couldn't be a bonafide think tank because, Chuck,

759
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: we don't have enough time in any given week to

760
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 1: do so much thorough primary source research into stuff. If

761
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 1: we release one of these every couple of months. Sure

762
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: we could be like a real think tank, but it

763
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't be nearly fun.

764
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: Six episodes a year. People would love.

765
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 1: That, Yeah, they'd love it. You got anything else?

766
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: Nope, I guess either.

767
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: Sorry for going off everybody, Thanks for listening. I'm sure

768
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: I'll get some email, but what evs It is worth it.

769
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about think tanks, well,

770
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, go on the internet and look up

771
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:14,680
Speaker 1: some think tanks and see if there's any that you

772
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,800
Speaker 1: agree with. A lot of them have like daily interpretations

773
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: of news that kind of go through their lens. Yeah,

774
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 1: it's a way to keep up with things. Sure, and

775
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 1: you can also read this article on how stuff works,

776
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: just not a think tank called how think tanks work.

777
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: And since I said that it's time for listener mail.

778
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to call this a Ballpoint pen addiction or

779
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 2: just pin addiction. Hey guys, been listening for a couple

780
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 2: of months or so, New listener, You were my first

781
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,279
Speaker 2: foray into podcasts. I just really enjoy listening to you too.

782
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 1: Welcome.

783
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 2: I saw the Ballpoint Pin podcast and I could not

784
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 2: pass it up. I have a bit of a pin problem,

785
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: you see. I own many mini pins, especially the gel

786
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 2: type inc roller ballpins. Way to Go, you got taken

787
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: a task a few people who were just like Josh Clark,

788
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 2: heresy gel pins. Yeah, there are a lot of I

789
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 2: guess traditionalists to boo poo.

790
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: That I think they're great. I got a lot of

791
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: support for that one.

792
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: Too, agreed, We got a lot of pin recommendations. It

793
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: was good to see. Yeah, and here's another one. I

794
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:21,439
Speaker 2: own many many pins, especially the gel ink rollerball pins.

795
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 2: I also own a collection of sharpiees and various tip

796
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 2: withs and colors. I probably have a couple of gallon

797
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: sized ziploc Bagsworth. You mentioned the way certain pins ride

798
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: on certain types of paper. I think it's probably the

799
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 2: rollerball gel pins that were best on the thermal paper

800
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 2: that they use in most restaurants. Remember I was talking

801
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: about signing the check. I think it's what she's talking.

802
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: We still never found out what that thing's called.

803
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 2: Thermal paper.

804
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: No, No, the thing that the check comes out in

805
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: the little portfolio.

806
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 2: The clamshell. Someone actually said, did you see that? Yeah,

807
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,959
Speaker 2: this great couple send in a picture of a clamshell

808
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 2: check delivery system. What are they called?

809
00:43:58,680 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 1: I don't know.

810
00:43:59,480 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 2: Check cat.

811
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: We're gonna we're gonna name them clamshells now all right,

812
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 1: that's the new name for him.

813
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 2: So I have a favorite pin, though, guys. I buy

814
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 2: them by the box. It's the Pilot V ball B

815
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: green pin, the point five millimeter. Okay. I love the

816
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 2: way they feel when they write. I can't go back

817
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: to ballpoint pins. I use them at work. I carry

818
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: at least three in my bag and I draw on

819
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: doodle with them. Using them on a newsprint pad is

820
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: my favorite thing when doing word art.

821
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: Nice.

822
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 2: Sorry for the ramble, guys, have a great day. That

823
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: is from Davini M. Barry, Davini Berry, Davini M Berry,

824
00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: M Berry. I wasn't going okay.

825
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know if Davini's middle initial was M,

826
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: or if I was miss hearing you in Davini and Barry.

827
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: It's actually Divina, excuse me, Divina M Berry. If I

828
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: would have said Divina M Berry, that would have been

829
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: much more clear. Or Mberry, it might be Divina Mbury.

830
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:53,359
Speaker 2: Was it say Divina or Davina?

831
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: Oh God? How about d E? Thanks d E.

832
00:44:58,080 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 2: It's d I.

833
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 1: At any rate, we're glad that you started listening to us.

834
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. Thanks for taking the time to let

835
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: us know about your pen addiction. Totally fine with us.

836
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: If you want to let us know about something you're

837
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: super into, you can hang out with us on social meds.

838
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: You can go to stuff youshould Know dot com and

839
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 1: find all of our social media links. You can also

840
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: send us an email to stuff podcast at HowStuffWorks dot com.

841
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.

842
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

843
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.