WEBVTT - Are We Doomed to Lose Curiosity As We Age? 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:18.200 You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:19.200 and iHeartRadio. 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.360 Guess what, Mengo, What's that will So. 0:00:25.440 --> 0:00:28.480 Earlier this week, we talked about how curiosity is strongest 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:31.880 when we encounter things that hit a certain intellectual sweet spot. 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:33.040 I guess you'd say, so. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:36.800 Neither too familiar nor too confusing. And it turns out 0:00:36.920 --> 0:00:39.640 the same thing is true for babies. So this comes 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:43.120 from a twenty twelve study that tested baby's reaction to 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.960 a variety of colorful animations. Now, researchers discovered that the 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.680 babies were most likely to look away from images that 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:53.800 were either very simple or very complex. So in between 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.760 images held their attention, which babies can be interpreted as 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:58.440 a measure of what they're curious about. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:00.440 You know, I would have thought that they would have 0:01:00.480 --> 0:01:03.280 been most interested in the simplest animations, which you know, 0:01:03.280 --> 0:01:04.360 I don't mean to offend babies. 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:06.640 Yeah, I know you're out to offend babies, But from 0:01:06.680 --> 0:01:10.160 an evolutionary standpoint, this actually makes perfect sense. So babies 0:01:10.200 --> 0:01:12.720 need to be selective with their curiosity. They don't want 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:15.560 to waste their precious cognitive resources on stuff they already 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:19.520 know or the things that underdeveloped brains can't possibly grasp. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:20.440 That's overwhelming. 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.240 So this way they can maximize their understanding the world 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:26.280 around them, which allows them to develop the behaviors that 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:29.840 they need to survive and thrive. Hopefully, and beyond their 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.480 response to animated images in the lab, there's this whole 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.720 body of research showing that even very young infants take 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.399 a systematic approach to exploring their environment. 0:01:38.840 --> 0:01:39.679 So if you think about it. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.280 That's pretty much what happens when they put new toys 0:01:42.280 --> 0:01:45.160 in their mouth. So by doing that, they're answering multiple 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:48.800 questions is this edible? Will this hurt me? Am I 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:53.040 capable of manipulating this? And so getting these answers accomplishes 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:58.160 two things cognitively speaking, It reduces uncertainty and it closes 0:01:58.200 --> 0:01:59.200 these knowledge gaps. 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:02.680 That is so fascinating because I just assume they weren't 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:04.440 that bright and they're just putting things in their mouth. 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.720 There you go again, fashion babies. I didn't realize they're 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:08.639 gonna be doing this today. 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:10.400 All of this sounds a lot like what we've been 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:14.000 talking about this week, though, right, Like it's all about curiosity. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:16.079 That's right, But you know, how is curiosity different in 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.120 babies and children and adults, and you know when to 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.120 ask questions like how can school encourage or unfortunately sometimes 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.760 discourage curiosity? And is it possible to stay curious even 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.600 in your old age. Today we're taking a long view 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:53.600 of curiosity across our lifespan. So let's dive in. Hey, 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.040 their podcast listener is welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:58.239 Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my good 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.200 friend Mangesh hot Ticketter there in the booth working his 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.880 way through an entire set of the World Book Encyclopedia. 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:06.799 I didn't know this was still in print. 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.640 Remember our old friend Aj Jacobs read the entire encyclopedia. 0:03:10.680 --> 0:03:13.480 But that's our pal and producer Dylan Fagan, and he 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:15.880 is really whizzing through it. It looks like he's up to 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:17.480 the letter l Oh yeah. 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.480 I mean what's crazy is that Encyclopedia's were like the 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.920 classic symbol of childhood curiosity. Right, You're supposed to go 0:03:24.000 --> 0:03:26.920 find one and dig in. But I really don't know, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:28.840 like do people even know what encyclopedia is? 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:31.600 And we probably should stop here just to clarify, Like 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:33.600 for those of you too young to know the World 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.800 Book Encyclopedia was I don't know, sort of like Wikipedia, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:38.080 but a lot heavier. 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:42.880 Yeah, yeah, and you're editing it was less acceptable? Yes, yeah, 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.560 I have to do it with a pen anyway. As always, 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.800 we've got Dylan setting the perfect tone for today's episode, 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:52.640 and it is day four of our week long series 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:55.000 about curiosity, and today we're going to be talking about 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.800 how curiosity develops in children, what happens to our curiosity 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:01.480 as we age. We've also got another listener activity for you, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.480 which means another chance to win a part time Genius 0:04:04.480 --> 0:04:06.880 Prize pack, and we are going to get that in 0:04:07.120 --> 0:04:09.560 just a little bit. But first, will how do you 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:12.440 sort of rate or rank your curiosity as a kid. 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:13.560 Were you a curious child? 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.279 I gotta be honest, I actually think that my curiosity 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.400 developed and grew more as like a middle schooler, as 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:24.480 I started getting into things like history and just the 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.040 sort of general knowledge stuff that we've loved learning. I 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:29.599 think as a as a younger kid, maybe it's not 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:31.480 fair to say I wasn't curious. It was just stuff 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:34.400 that was more like learning all the facts on baseball cards, 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:36.120 or like all the sports stuff that I might have 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:37.640 been into at that age, how about you. 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:40.480 Yeah, when I was a toddler, we had a really 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:45.719 sturdy dog and and I would stand on top of 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.480 him and put stuff into the microwave. I would stand 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.159 and unlock the front door and run out into the 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.320 front yard and like it was a terror. I'd also 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.200 at my uncle's house in India. He lived in an 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:02.040 apartment in Bombay, and I I would run to the kitchen, 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.400 get a fork, run to the balcony and drop it. Yeah, 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.839 like doing a gravity experiment. Okay, okay, until someone yelled 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.960 up its raining forks and then my mom copy. 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:17.200 I'm glad you're still alive and also not in prison 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.360 for anything you might have done for ingrats. 0:05:20.640 --> 0:05:24.440 So one challenge we have in understanding baby's curiosity is 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:29.000 that babies cannot fill out questionnaires or participate in trivia games. 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:31.160 And if you remember some of the studies on adult 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.760 curiosity that we've discussed this week, these are actually two 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.360 key approaches that researchers use to find out how curious 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.560 people are and also what they're curious about. And so 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.000 with babies it is a little fuzzier. You have to 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.280 rely on questionnaires filled out by caregivers, or you can 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.400 use eye trackers to measure where they're looking, and curiosity 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.640 researchers are open about the fact that these are imperfect measures, right, 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:56.479 they don't necessarily capture exactly what's going on in a 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.599 baby's mind, and a baby, of course, has no way 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.680 to tell. So that's a little bit of a disclaimer here. 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.880 But experts believe curiosity is something that we are all 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.159 born with. It's kind of built into the human experience. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.480 And at the same time, we know from adult studies 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.599 that some people are more curious than others. According to 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.279 a twenty twenty one Johns Hopkins study, months old babies 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.040 who showed the most interest in a magic trick became 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.559 more curious as toddlers compared to babies who didn't seem 0:06:24.560 --> 0:06:25.680 that curious about the trick. 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:27.560 I mean, that's fascinating, but you know what, my first 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:29.560 question is going to be, what was the magic trick? 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:32.240 There were two? Actually, there was one where a toy 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.160 appeared to pass through a solid wall and another where 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.200 the toy looked like it was floating in the air. 0:06:37.360 --> 0:06:40.039 Okay, I can say I would be interested in these 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.000 if you showed me these tricks, Can I see them? 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.120 You have a lot in common with a curious baby. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.960 But what's so cool about the study is that it 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:49.480 tells us two things. First of all, there's a difference 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.960 in curiosity levels and babies even before they're a year old. 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:57.279 And two, that different stayed consistent as they grew into toddlers, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:07:00.279 starting to walk and talk, all those big developments, little 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:03.000 changes that happened, they continue to stay curious through them. 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.000 So does this mean that some people are just naturally 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:06.119 more curious than others. 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:08.479 I mean that might be the case. Remember, though, there 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.480 are several different flavors of curiosity. We talked about this 0:07:11.520 --> 0:07:14.560 on Monday, But there's trait curiosity, which is when you're 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:17.240 just generally curious about the world around you, and then 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.040 there's state curiosity, which is when your curiosity gets activated 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.120 by specific things that happen to interest you. It is 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.400 entirely possible that as these babies get older, some of 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.000 them will discover something that sparks their curiosity in a 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.120 way that you know, those magic tricks didn't quite pull off. 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:35.760 Yeah, well, I certainly hope that's the case, because, according 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.280 to another study that looked at over six thousand kids 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:42.240 entering kindergarten, highly curious children tend to do better in school, 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:44.200 and that's I guess not a huge shock there. But 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:47.280 researchers ask parents and guardians to fill out questionnaires to 0:07:47.320 --> 0:07:50.520 determine how curious each child was, and then after the 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:53.000 kids started school, they looked at how well they did 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:56.240 on math and various reading assignments and the results were 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:59.480 actually pretty amazing. They found that higher curiosity scores were 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:02.800 directly related to better test scores across the board, but 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.600 the impact was greatest in kids from low income homes. 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:07.680 That's a big deal because we know that kids with 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:11.720 lower socioeconomic status tend to have less access to resources 0:08:11.760 --> 0:08:14.960 that enrich their learning, and that in turn can affect 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:16.160 their academic performance. 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:19.600 Yeah, that is fascinating. So it sounds like encouraging curiosity 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.960 in young kids can actually help offset some inequalities in education. 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.040 Yeah, I mean, let's do talk about that phrase encouraging curiosity, 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.520 because what do we really mean when we say that 0:08:30.640 --> 0:08:32.760 or what does it look like in real life? And 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.040 so to answer those questions, we have to think about 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.560 the place where most kids spend most of their time, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.080 and that is school. So I actually want to read 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.280 you something from an autobiographical sketch that Albert Einstein wrote 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.400 back in nineteen forty nine. He says, it is in 0:08:46.400 --> 0:08:49.000 fact nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:53.199 of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry, 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.160 for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:00.679 need of freedom. Without this, it goes to and ruin 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:01.520 without fail. 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.160 I guess I'm not that surprised, right, Like, Einstein wasn't 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.160 the biggest fan of school. 0:09:06.200 --> 0:09:08.640 Yeah, yeah, I mean he did okay academically, but he 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.720 struggled with the strict rules and structure, and what he 0:09:11.800 --> 0:09:13.840 really wanted to do was learn math at a higher 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:16.280 level than he was being taught. So he got some 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.000 books and he taught himself. And obviously every school is different, 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:22.920 and schools have evolved a lot since Einstein was a kid, 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.640 but the point is still pretty valid. Kids need some 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:29.320 degree of intellectual freedom in order to exercise their curiosity. 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:32.199 So Doctor Jamie Jeru is an associate professor at the 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.240 University of Virginia, where she directs the Research and Education 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.160 and Learning Lab. Now she spent years studying children's curiosity 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.080 and its connection to learning and She says that an 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.239 over emphasis on academic performance can actually make kids disconnect 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:47.760 from their natural curiosity. 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:54.040 Most educational systems that exist today are just so performance focused, 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:59.640 and we put so much emphasis on accuracy and excelling 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.120 as as quickly as possible. So when you go to school, 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.960 if your job is to learn specific facts or specific skills, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.280 you're going to focus on those, and being curious can 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.520 actually be a risk to your academic performance. And I 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:13.920 see this even in my college students, where if they 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:15.640 become really curious about something, they might go off on 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:18.280 a tangent and actually not do what they're supposed to 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:19.480 do for the class assignments. 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.400 Now, luckily, doctor Jeru is an expert in this kind 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:24.920 of thing, so she's figured out a really cool solution. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.720 I've tried to structure my classes and being so open 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.120 ended and having lots of different options so that I 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:32.960 can allow that curiosity. And also I do have to 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.320 have my learning objectives that I'm trying to meet, so 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.280 I've added curiosity as my first learning objectives so that 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:41.520 I can justify when students can go off in different directions. 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:44.959 That is such a wonderful way of thinking about school, 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.600 Like you can make curiosity a priority along with all 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:49.680 the other goals of the class. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:51.520 Right, yeah, right, Doctor Jeru says. 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.160 The other thing is de emphasizing the goal of getting 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:56.440 the right answer, because once you do that, your brain 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:58.079 is like, Okay, I'm done, you know, I don't need 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.160 to think about this anymore. That's pretty much the exact 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.040 opposite of curiosity. So instead, teachers can keep students, you know, 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:08.680 whether they're in kindergarten or college, focused on the process 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:11.200 of learning and how the information they encounter relates to 0:11:11.320 --> 0:11:12.200 other things they. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.040 Know, and so just little things like instead of saying 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:19.359 something like, okay, now, everybody work on the first five problems, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.040 you could say, see if you can find all the 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.120 answers and let me know when you're done. Or you 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:26.240 can say, see if you can figure out how to 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:28.760 solve them, and when you finish, or if you finish 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:30.960 before everyone else is done, see if you can find 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.200 a different way to solve them, and so really focusing 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.640 on the process. And also this idea that once you 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:39.000 know something, that's not the end. 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.920 I love that, the idea that acquiring knowledge is more 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.800 of a beginning than an end, right, And when I 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.760 remember things I've been really curious about or times when 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.280 I've gotten really engrossed in an idea. That's exactly what 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.360 it feels like like. Learning one thing just makes you 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.480 want to learn more, which is a very different idea 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:00.120 than some of the stuff I had to study in 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:01.559 school just to pass the test. 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:04.680 Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, as you know, sometimes 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:06.760 you have to knuckle down and memorize a list of 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:10.439 state capitals. But educators are bringing some of those concepts 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.880 into the classroom, whether it's exploratory learning models that encourage 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:16.840 students to think through problems on their own, or even 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.959 just changing the way they ask questions. So doctor Jeru 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.679 says that giving multiple kids an opportunity to share their 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.520 answer or idea and how they came up with it 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.160 is actually more engaging than calling on the first person 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:31.000 who raises their hand. And among other things, this helps 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:33.640 kids realize that sometimes there are different ways at arriving 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:37.080 at the same answer, and that's basically catinep for curiosity. 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.520 Well, now that we know a bit about curiosity in childhood, 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:43.040 it is time to look ahead. And if you start 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.120 reading about what happens to curiosity and adults, you'll find 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.559 a lot of people saying that as we get older, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.080 we get less curious. But our question is is this 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.000 really true? And since we're starting to get up there 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.280 in age, this is a very important question for us. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.360 So we're going to figure out the answer right after 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:17.960 this quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. It 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.400 is day four of our week long exploration of curiosity, 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.920 and trust me when I say you will not want 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:26.240 to miss the last episode of the series tomorrow. It 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:30.319 is a conversation with two of our very, very favorite podcasters. 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.240 I mean, they are definitely podcasters. You should know. That's 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.480 a little hint there. It's going to be fun. Okay, 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:38.959 man go speaking of curiosity changing over the years, as 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.000 you mentioned before the break, there is sort of a 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:45.520 conventional wisdom that curiosity decreases with age. Of course, conventional 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:48.200 wisdom isn't always black and white. So we asked our 0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.880 good friend Mitra Banshahi to take her microphone to the 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:54.160 streets of Brooklyn and ask people of all ages about 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:54.880 their experience. 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.320 Here's what they had to say. Yeah, you get less 0:13:57.320 --> 0:13:59.680 curious as you get older. You like what you like, 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:01.560 you do your. 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.120 Routine, and I look at my grandfather, he's just like 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.400 he doesn't even want to meet new people. At this point, 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.080 there just aren't enough hours in the day to learn 0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:12.160 all the things that I want to learn how to do. 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.000 So I do think I am very curious still, but 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:17.760 I've there's kind of like a comfort in like having 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:19.120 figured a lot out. 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:23.280 I think if any had become more curious because I 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:27.720 guess I've seen more people I've met than I'm so 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:30.560 curious about all these things that have come into my life. 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.280 When I talk to people that are older than me, 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.560 it feels like they're more engaged sometimes, whereas I think 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.880 people my age maybe like don't have the attention span 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.360 or just don't care enough to ask me about myself, 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.200 Whereas older people I feel like they want to know more. 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:47.200 I don't know if it's the same as like being curious, 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.920 but it feels like just interested in hearing stories more. 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:57.480 As I getting older, I'm not as curious. I'm more tired. 0:14:58.880 --> 0:14:59.920 I don't have the energy. 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.480 I mean, I definitely hear the tired part because I'm 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:10.360 probably more tired. But also, you know, my grandfather decided 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:12.960 that he wanted to learn a language in when he 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.160 was like seventy nine. Yeah, and the idea of like 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.840 embarking on a language and learning it honestly because he 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:20.160 wanted to write in that language. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:21.040 Yeah, he had this. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:22.600 Idea for a story and he thought it could only 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.440 be delivered best in this language called Kandada, and so 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.880 he started getting a tutor for for the language. 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:31.240 And it's crazy. I do worry a little bit about 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:31.960 the tired part. 0:15:32.040 --> 0:15:33.840 Is like when we when we get to the next 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.280 stage in life or maybe work is a little less busy, 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.240 Like it sounds so nice to think about learning another 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:41.800 language or picking up a new instrument or whatever it 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:42.160 may be. 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:43.200 And then I'm. 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:44.880 Also just a little bit nervous that we're gonna be like, 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:45.760 but I'm tired. 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.760 So let's make a pack. Let's make a pact that 0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:50.440 we're gonna what are we gonna do? We're gonna learn 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.480 a language of scrubs rerun. 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.680 So many scrubs reruns? Wait, is that is that curiosity? 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.160 Yeah? Okay, cool deal. 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.680 So so anyway, this idea that older people aren't as 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.880 curious as young people isn't just an opinion. I mean 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.680 you actually find it in scientific literature. It's backed up 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.040 by research and surveys. But the great thing about science, 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.720 and perhaps the thing I love most about science is 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.600 that it is constantly evolving, and this is definitely the 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:21.680 case with people being curious. So people like doctor Mary Wattley, 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.920 she is an assistant professor at Western Carolina University, is 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:29.080 studying memory and aging at a lab she leads there, 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.240 and last year she was at UCLA finishing up her 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.320 doctorate and as she told our super producer Mary, part 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:37.880 of the work involved bringing older adults into a lab 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.000 to do memory tests, and that is when she noticed 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:41.880 something interesting. 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.800 So when they would come in, they were often really 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.320 curious individuals and they were asking questions like what are 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:52.880 you testing? Can I learn the results of these things? 0:16:53.480 --> 0:16:57.200 Doctor Wattley and her colleagues realized that this contradicted everything 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.360 they had read about older people's curiosity, and that's because 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:04.080 a lot of earlier research didn't differentiate between state and 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.399 trait curiosity. So they decided to test both types of 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:10.760 curiosity head to head. This involved a survey to measure 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:14.240 trait curiosity in a trivia game to measure state curiosity, 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:16.600 and the way it worked was they'd read a challenging 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.280 trivia question and ask people to take their best guests 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:22.040 and then they'd ask how interested they were in finding 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:22.719 out the answer. 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:25.240 I'm just kind of picturing doing this at like a 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.119 bar trivia night where they ask, you know, who had 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:29.680 been a the windshield wiper, and also who cares? 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.160 I mean, I care? 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.119 Yeah, and I do because it was actually a self 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.400 taught inventor named Mary Anderson from my home state of Alabama. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:40.040 I'm glad you sent me up with that. 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:40.440 Yeah. 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.680 It is also good to know that doctor Wattley's studies 0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.600 results paint a much more nuanced picture of curiosity as 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:51.240 we age. She did find that tray curiosity declined over time, 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:55.359 but state curiosity was totally different. Younger adults and middle 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.760 aged people showed low levels of state curiosity, but after 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:03.919 middle age, curiosity spikes and it keeps increasing well into 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.520 old age. And the reason for this is probably similar 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:08.360 to what you were saying about babies at the top 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.400 of the show. In other words, young adults, like babies, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.720 need to be selective with their curiosity. When you're trying 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.240 to land your first job, or find a partner, or 0:18:17.359 --> 0:18:20.560 just generally trying to figure out what adulting is. Treat 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.000 curiosity is an asset, so that's where you want to 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:27.480 devote your energy when you're much older, Like if you 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.480 retire and your kids leave home, you suddenly have more 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:34.360 time and space to indulge your interest in well, basically 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:35.439 anything that interests you. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:36.480 Yeah, and that makes sense. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.960 But I guess one question I have is does curiosity 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:42.360 have any specific benefits when you're older as opposed to 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:45.199 the obvious benefits when you're really young. And we know 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.800 there's that positive link between curiosity and academics, but once 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:52.560 you're out of school, that doesn't seem to matter, right, Yeah, So. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.480 According to doctor Watley, curiosity can actually play a very 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:57.320 big role in healthy aging. 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.639 There was a study that showed even like survive was 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:04.640 greater in people who had higher levels of curiosity over 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:08.000 a five year period. We don't know necessarily if it's 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.119 the curiosity itself or if it's what the curiosity makes 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:15.320 you do, which is maybe like engaging in other cognitive 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:19.320 tasks that keep you sharp. But there is some research 0:19:19.400 --> 0:19:23.800 that curiosity is related to lower rates of dementia survival. 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:27.440 So these are like really important things as we get older. 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:29.800 Would it be safe to say that listening to part 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.119 time genius could help you with your curiosity as you 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:33.760 get older. 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.040 I mean, I think that simply engaging with new information, 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:42.960 learning new things, curiosity is sort of like a feedback loop. 0:19:43.000 --> 0:19:46.080 It's sort of like a cycle. So if you know 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:49.199 a little bit about something, you might be curious to 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:52.000 know the things that you don't know. And so then 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.040 when you learn those things, it feels like, ah, yes, 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.720 now I've learned these things. That feels good, right, It's 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.399 a little bit rewarding, and then you I want to 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.560 know more. So I think the more you're exposing yourself 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:10.080 to new information, the more opportunities you have to experience curiosity. 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.800