Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Guess what, Mengo, What's that will So.
Speaker 3: Earlier this week, we talked about how curiosity is strongest
Speaker 3: when we encounter things that hit a certain intellectual sweet spot.
Speaker 2: I guess you'd say, so.
Speaker 3: Neither too familiar nor too confusing. And it turns out
Speaker 3: the same thing is true for babies. So this comes
Speaker 3: from a twenty twelve study that tested baby's reaction to
Speaker 3: a variety of colorful animations. Now, researchers discovered that the
Speaker 3: babies were most likely to look away from images that
Speaker 3: were either very simple or very complex. So in between
Speaker 3: images held their attention, which babies can be interpreted as
Speaker 3: a measure of what they're curious about.
Speaker 1: You know, I would have thought that they would have
Speaker 1: been most interested in the simplest animations, which you know,
Speaker 1: I don't mean to offend babies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you're out to offend babies, But from
Speaker 3: an evolutionary standpoint, this actually makes perfect sense. So babies
Speaker 3: need to be selective with their curiosity. They don't want
Speaker 3: to waste their precious cognitive resources on stuff they already
Speaker 3: know or the things that underdeveloped brains can't possibly grasp.
Speaker 2: That's overwhelming.
Speaker 3: So this way they can maximize their understanding the world
Speaker 3: around them, which allows them to develop the behaviors that
Speaker 3: they need to survive and thrive. Hopefully, and beyond their
Speaker 3: response to animated images in the lab, there's this whole
Speaker 3: body of research showing that even very young infants take
Speaker 3: a systematic approach to exploring their environment.
Speaker 2: So if you think about it.
Speaker 3: That's pretty much what happens when they put new toys
Speaker 3: in their mouth. So by doing that, they're answering multiple
Speaker 3: questions is this edible? Will this hurt me? Am I
Speaker 3: capable of manipulating this? And so getting these answers accomplishes
Speaker 3: two things cognitively speaking, It reduces uncertainty and it closes
Speaker 3: these knowledge gaps.
Speaker 1: That is so fascinating because I just assume they weren't
Speaker 1: that bright and they're just putting things in their mouth.
Speaker 2: There you go again, fashion babies. I didn't realize they're
Speaker 2: gonna be doing this today.
Speaker 1: All of this sounds a lot like what we've been
Speaker 1: talking about this week, though, right, Like it's all about curiosity.
Speaker 3: That's right, But you know, how is curiosity different in
Speaker 3: babies and children and adults, and you know when to
Speaker 3: ask questions like how can school encourage or unfortunately sometimes
Speaker 3: discourage curiosity? And is it possible to stay curious even
Speaker 3: in your old age. Today we're taking a long view
Speaker 3: of curiosity across our lifespan. So let's dive in. Hey,
Speaker 3: their podcast listener is welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Speaker 3: Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my good
Speaker 3: friend Mangesh hot Ticketter there in the booth working his
Speaker 3: way through an entire set of the World Book Encyclopedia.
Speaker 2: I didn't know this was still in print.
Speaker 3: Remember our old friend Aj Jacobs read the entire encyclopedia.
Speaker 3: But that's our pal and producer Dylan Fagan, and he
Speaker 3: is really whizzing through it. It looks like he's up to
Speaker 3: the letter l Oh yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean what's crazy is that Encyclopedia's were like the
Speaker 1: classic symbol of childhood curiosity. Right, You're supposed to go
Speaker 1: find one and dig in. But I really don't know,
Speaker 1: like do people even know what encyclopedia is?
Speaker 3: And we probably should stop here just to clarify, Like
Speaker 3: for those of you too young to know the World
Speaker 3: Book Encyclopedia was I don't know, sort of like Wikipedia,
Speaker 3: but a lot heavier.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you're editing it was less acceptable? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I have to do it with a pen anyway. As always,
Speaker 1: we've got Dylan setting the perfect tone for today's episode,
Speaker 1: and it is day four of our week long series
Speaker 1: about curiosity, and today we're going to be talking about
Speaker 1: how curiosity develops in children, what happens to our curiosity
Speaker 1: as we age. We've also got another listener activity for you,
Speaker 1: which means another chance to win a part time Genius
Speaker 1: Prize pack, and we are going to get that in
Speaker 1: just a little bit. But first, will how do you
Speaker 1: sort of rate or rank your curiosity as a kid.
Speaker 1: Were you a curious child?
Speaker 3: I gotta be honest, I actually think that my curiosity
Speaker 3: developed and grew more as like a middle schooler, as
Speaker 3: I started getting into things like history and just the
Speaker 3: sort of general knowledge stuff that we've loved learning. I
Speaker 3: think as a as a younger kid, maybe it's not
Speaker 3: fair to say I wasn't curious. It was just stuff
Speaker 3: that was more like learning all the facts on baseball cards,
Speaker 3: or like all the sports stuff that I might have
Speaker 3: been into at that age, how about you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when I was a toddler, we had a really
Speaker 1: sturdy dog and and I would stand on top of
Speaker 1: him and put stuff into the microwave. I would stand
Speaker 1: and unlock the front door and run out into the
Speaker 1: front yard and like it was a terror. I'd also
Speaker 1: at my uncle's house in India. He lived in an
Speaker 1: apartment in Bombay, and I I would run to the kitchen,
Speaker 1: get a fork, run to the balcony and drop it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: like doing a gravity experiment. Okay, okay, until someone yelled
Speaker 1: up its raining forks and then my mom copy.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're still alive and also not in prison
Speaker 2: for anything you might have done for ingrats.
Speaker 1: So one challenge we have in understanding baby's curiosity is
Speaker 1: that babies cannot fill out questionnaires or participate in trivia games.
Speaker 1: And if you remember some of the studies on adult
Speaker 1: curiosity that we've discussed this week, these are actually two
Speaker 1: key approaches that researchers use to find out how curious
Speaker 1: people are and also what they're curious about. And so
Speaker 1: with babies it is a little fuzzier. You have to
Speaker 1: rely on questionnaires filled out by caregivers, or you can
Speaker 1: use eye trackers to measure where they're looking, and curiosity
Speaker 1: researchers are open about the fact that these are imperfect measures, right,
Speaker 1: they don't necessarily capture exactly what's going on in a
Speaker 1: baby's mind, and a baby, of course, has no way
Speaker 1: to tell. So that's a little bit of a disclaimer here.
Speaker 1: But experts believe curiosity is something that we are all
Speaker 1: born with. It's kind of built into the human experience.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, we know from adult studies
Speaker 1: that some people are more curious than others. According to
Speaker 1: a twenty twenty one Johns Hopkins study, months old babies
Speaker 1: who showed the most interest in a magic trick became
Speaker 1: more curious as toddlers compared to babies who didn't seem
Speaker 1: that curious about the trick.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's fascinating, but you know what, my first
Speaker 3: question is going to be, what was the magic trick?
Speaker 1: There were two? Actually, there was one where a toy
Speaker 1: appeared to pass through a solid wall and another where
Speaker 1: the toy looked like it was floating in the air.
Speaker 3: Okay, I can say I would be interested in these
Speaker 3: if you showed me these tricks, Can I see them?
Speaker 1: You have a lot in common with a curious baby.
Speaker 1: But what's so cool about the study is that it
Speaker 1: tells us two things. First of all, there's a difference
Speaker 1: in curiosity levels and babies even before they're a year old.
Speaker 1: And two, that different stayed consistent as they grew into toddlers,
Speaker 1: starting to walk and talk, all those big developments, little
Speaker 1: changes that happened, they continue to stay curious through them.
Speaker 3: So does this mean that some people are just naturally
Speaker 3: more curious than others.
Speaker 1: I mean that might be the case. Remember, though, there
Speaker 1: are several different flavors of curiosity. We talked about this
Speaker 1: on Monday, But there's trait curiosity, which is when you're
Speaker 1: just generally curious about the world around you, and then
Speaker 1: there's state curiosity, which is when your curiosity gets activated
Speaker 1: by specific things that happen to interest you. It is
Speaker 1: entirely possible that as these babies get older, some of
Speaker 1: them will discover something that sparks their curiosity in a
Speaker 1: way that you know, those magic tricks didn't quite pull off.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I certainly hope that's the case, because, according
Speaker 3: to another study that looked at over six thousand kids
Speaker 3: entering kindergarten, highly curious children tend to do better in school,
Speaker 3: and that's I guess not a huge shock there. But
Speaker 3: researchers ask parents and guardians to fill out questionnaires to
Speaker 3: determine how curious each child was, and then after the
Speaker 3: kids started school, they looked at how well they did
Speaker 3: on math and various reading assignments and the results were
Speaker 3: actually pretty amazing. They found that higher curiosity scores were
Speaker 3: directly related to better test scores across the board, but
Speaker 3: the impact was greatest in kids from low income homes.
Speaker 3: That's a big deal because we know that kids with
Speaker 3: lower socioeconomic status tend to have less access to resources
Speaker 3: that enrich their learning, and that in turn can affect
Speaker 3: their academic performance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is fascinating. So it sounds like encouraging curiosity
Speaker 1: in young kids can actually help offset some inequalities in education.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, let's do talk about that phrase encouraging curiosity,
Speaker 3: because what do we really mean when we say that
Speaker 3: or what does it look like in real life? And
Speaker 3: so to answer those questions, we have to think about
Speaker 3: the place where most kids spend most of their time,
Speaker 3: and that is school. So I actually want to read
Speaker 3: you something from an autobiographical sketch that Albert Einstein wrote
Speaker 3: back in nineteen forty nine. He says, it is in
Speaker 3: fact nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods
Speaker 3: of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry,
Speaker 3: for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in
Speaker 3: need of freedom. Without this, it goes to and ruin
Speaker 3: without fail.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm not that surprised, right, Like, Einstein wasn't
Speaker 1: the biggest fan of school.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean he did okay academically, but he
Speaker 3: struggled with the strict rules and structure, and what he
Speaker 3: really wanted to do was learn math at a higher
Speaker 3: level than he was being taught. So he got some
Speaker 3: books and he taught himself. And obviously every school is different,
Speaker 3: and schools have evolved a lot since Einstein was a kid,
Speaker 3: but the point is still pretty valid. Kids need some
Speaker 3: degree of intellectual freedom in order to exercise their curiosity.
Speaker 3: So Doctor Jamie Jeru is an associate professor at the
Speaker 3: University of Virginia, where she directs the Research and Education
Speaker 3: and Learning Lab. Now she spent years studying children's curiosity
Speaker 3: and its connection to learning and She says that an
Speaker 3: over emphasis on academic performance can actually make kids disconnect
Speaker 3: from their natural curiosity.
Speaker 4: Most educational systems that exist today are just so performance focused,
Speaker 4: and we put so much emphasis on accuracy and excelling
Speaker 4: as as quickly as possible. So when you go to school,
Speaker 4: if your job is to learn specific facts or specific skills,
Speaker 4: you're going to focus on those, and being curious can
Speaker 4: actually be a risk to your academic performance. And I
Speaker 4: see this even in my college students, where if they
Speaker 4: become really curious about something, they might go off on
Speaker 4: a tangent and actually not do what they're supposed to
Speaker 4: do for the class assignments.
Speaker 3: Now, luckily, doctor Jeru is an expert in this kind
Speaker 3: of thing, so she's figured out a really cool solution.
Speaker 4: I've tried to structure my classes and being so open
Speaker 4: ended and having lots of different options so that I
Speaker 4: can allow that curiosity. And also I do have to
Speaker 4: have my learning objectives that I'm trying to meet, so
Speaker 4: I've added curiosity as my first learning objectives so that
Speaker 4: I can justify when students can go off in different directions.
Speaker 1: That is such a wonderful way of thinking about school,
Speaker 1: Like you can make curiosity a priority along with all
Speaker 1: the other goals of the class.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, right, Doctor Jeru says.
Speaker 3: The other thing is de emphasizing the goal of getting
Speaker 3: the right answer, because once you do that, your brain
Speaker 3: is like, Okay, I'm done, you know, I don't need
Speaker 3: to think about this anymore. That's pretty much the exact
Speaker 3: opposite of curiosity. So instead, teachers can keep students, you know,
Speaker 3: whether they're in kindergarten or college, focused on the process
Speaker 3: of learning and how the information they encounter relates to
Speaker 3: other things they.
Speaker 4: Know, and so just little things like instead of saying
Speaker 4: something like, okay, now, everybody work on the first five problems,
Speaker 4: you could say, see if you can find all the
Speaker 4: answers and let me know when you're done. Or you
Speaker 4: can say, see if you can figure out how to
Speaker 4: solve them, and when you finish, or if you finish
Speaker 4: before everyone else is done, see if you can find
Speaker 4: a different way to solve them, and so really focusing
Speaker 4: on the process. And also this idea that once you
Speaker 4: know something, that's not the end.
Speaker 1: I love that, the idea that acquiring knowledge is more
Speaker 1: of a beginning than an end, right, And when I
Speaker 1: remember things I've been really curious about or times when
Speaker 1: I've gotten really engrossed in an idea. That's exactly what
Speaker 1: it feels like like. Learning one thing just makes you
Speaker 1: want to learn more, which is a very different idea
Speaker 1: than some of the stuff I had to study in
Speaker 1: school just to pass the test.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, as you know, sometimes
Speaker 3: you have to knuckle down and memorize a list of
Speaker 3: state capitals. But educators are bringing some of those concepts
Speaker 3: into the classroom, whether it's exploratory learning models that encourage
Speaker 3: students to think through problems on their own, or even
Speaker 3: just changing the way they ask questions. So doctor Jeru
Speaker 3: says that giving multiple kids an opportunity to share their
Speaker 3: answer or idea and how they came up with it
Speaker 3: is actually more engaging than calling on the first person
Speaker 3: who raises their hand. And among other things, this helps
Speaker 3: kids realize that sometimes there are different ways at arriving
Speaker 3: at the same answer, and that's basically catinep for curiosity.
Speaker 1: Well, now that we know a bit about curiosity in childhood,
Speaker 1: it is time to look ahead. And if you start
Speaker 1: reading about what happens to curiosity and adults, you'll find
Speaker 1: a lot of people saying that as we get older,
Speaker 1: we get less curious. But our question is is this
Speaker 1: really true? And since we're starting to get up there
Speaker 1: in age, this is a very important question for us.
Speaker 1: So we're going to figure out the answer right after
Speaker 1: this quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. It
Speaker 1: is day four of our week long exploration of curiosity,
Speaker 1: and trust me when I say you will not want
Speaker 1: to miss the last episode of the series tomorrow. It
Speaker 1: is a conversation with two of our very, very favorite podcasters.
Speaker 3: I mean, they are definitely podcasters. You should know. That's
Speaker 3: a little hint there. It's going to be fun. Okay,
Speaker 3: man go speaking of curiosity changing over the years, as
Speaker 3: you mentioned before the break, there is sort of a
Speaker 3: conventional wisdom that curiosity decreases with age. Of course, conventional
Speaker 3: wisdom isn't always black and white. So we asked our
Speaker 3: good friend Mitra Banshahi to take her microphone to the
Speaker 3: streets of Brooklyn and ask people of all ages about
Speaker 3: their experience.
Speaker 2: Here's what they had to say. Yeah, you get less
Speaker 2: curious as you get older. You like what you like,
Speaker 2: you do your.
Speaker 5: Routine, and I look at my grandfather, he's just like
Speaker 5: he doesn't even want to meet new people. At this point,
Speaker 5: there just aren't enough hours in the day to learn
Speaker 5: all the things that I want to learn how to do.
Speaker 5: So I do think I am very curious still, but
Speaker 5: I've there's kind of like a comfort in like having
Speaker 5: figured a lot out.
Speaker 6: I think if any had become more curious because I
Speaker 6: guess I've seen more people I've met than I'm so
Speaker 6: curious about all these things that have come into my life.
Speaker 7: When I talk to people that are older than me,
Speaker 7: it feels like they're more engaged sometimes, whereas I think
Speaker 7: people my age maybe like don't have the attention span
Speaker 7: or just don't care enough to ask me about myself,
Speaker 7: Whereas older people I feel like they want to know more.
Speaker 7: I don't know if it's the same as like being curious,
Speaker 7: but it feels like just interested in hearing stories more.
Speaker 1: As I getting older, I'm not as curious. I'm more tired.
Speaker 7: I don't have the energy.
Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely hear the tired part because I'm
Speaker 1: probably more tired. But also, you know, my grandfather decided
Speaker 1: that he wanted to learn a language in when he
Speaker 1: was like seventy nine. Yeah, and the idea of like
Speaker 1: embarking on a language and learning it honestly because he
Speaker 1: wanted to write in that language.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he had this.
Speaker 1: Idea for a story and he thought it could only
Speaker 1: be delivered best in this language called Kandada, and so
Speaker 1: he started getting a tutor for for the language.
Speaker 2: And it's crazy. I do worry a little bit about
Speaker 2: the tired part.
Speaker 3: Is like when we when we get to the next
Speaker 3: stage in life or maybe work is a little less busy,
Speaker 3: Like it sounds so nice to think about learning another
Speaker 3: language or picking up a new instrument or whatever it
Speaker 3: may be.
Speaker 2: And then I'm.
Speaker 3: Also just a little bit nervous that we're gonna be like,
Speaker 3: but I'm tired.
Speaker 2: So let's make a pack. Let's make a pact that
Speaker 2: we're gonna what are we gonna do? We're gonna learn
Speaker 2: a language of scrubs rerun.
Speaker 3: So many scrubs reruns? Wait, is that is that curiosity?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, cool deal.
Speaker 1: So so anyway, this idea that older people aren't as
Speaker 1: curious as young people isn't just an opinion. I mean
Speaker 1: you actually find it in scientific literature. It's backed up
Speaker 1: by research and surveys. But the great thing about science,
Speaker 1: and perhaps the thing I love most about science is
Speaker 1: that it is constantly evolving, and this is definitely the
Speaker 1: case with people being curious. So people like doctor Mary Wattley,
Speaker 1: she is an assistant professor at Western Carolina University, is
Speaker 1: studying memory and aging at a lab she leads there,
Speaker 1: and last year she was at UCLA finishing up her
Speaker 1: doctorate and as she told our super producer Mary, part
Speaker 1: of the work involved bringing older adults into a lab
Speaker 1: to do memory tests, and that is when she noticed
Speaker 1: something interesting.
Speaker 8: So when they would come in, they were often really
Speaker 8: curious individuals and they were asking questions like what are
Speaker 8: you testing? Can I learn the results of these things?
Speaker 1: Doctor Wattley and her colleagues realized that this contradicted everything
Speaker 1: they had read about older people's curiosity, and that's because
Speaker 1: a lot of earlier research didn't differentiate between state and
Speaker 1: trait curiosity. So they decided to test both types of
Speaker 1: curiosity head to head. This involved a survey to measure
Speaker 1: trait curiosity in a trivia game to measure state curiosity,
Speaker 1: and the way it worked was they'd read a challenging
Speaker 1: trivia question and ask people to take their best guests
Speaker 1: and then they'd ask how interested they were in finding
Speaker 1: out the answer.
Speaker 3: I'm just kind of picturing doing this at like a
Speaker 3: bar trivia night where they ask, you know, who had
Speaker 3: been a the windshield wiper, and also who cares?
Speaker 2: I mean, I care?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do because it was actually a self
Speaker 3: taught inventor named Mary Anderson from my home state of Alabama.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you sent me up with that.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It is also good to know that doctor Wattley's studies
Speaker 1: results paint a much more nuanced picture of curiosity as
Speaker 1: we age. She did find that tray curiosity declined over time,
Speaker 1: but state curiosity was totally different. Younger adults and middle
Speaker 1: aged people showed low levels of state curiosity, but after
Speaker 1: middle age, curiosity spikes and it keeps increasing well into
Speaker 1: old age. And the reason for this is probably similar
Speaker 1: to what you were saying about babies at the top
Speaker 1: of the show. In other words, young adults, like babies,
Speaker 1: need to be selective with their curiosity. When you're trying
Speaker 1: to land your first job, or find a partner, or
Speaker 1: just generally trying to figure out what adulting is. Treat
Speaker 1: curiosity is an asset, so that's where you want to
Speaker 1: devote your energy when you're much older, Like if you
Speaker 1: retire and your kids leave home, you suddenly have more
Speaker 1: time and space to indulge your interest in well, basically
Speaker 1: anything that interests you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes sense.
Speaker 3: But I guess one question I have is does curiosity
Speaker 3: have any specific benefits when you're older as opposed to
Speaker 3: the obvious benefits when you're really young. And we know
Speaker 3: there's that positive link between curiosity and academics, but once
Speaker 3: you're out of school, that doesn't seem to matter, right, Yeah, So.
Speaker 1: According to doctor Watley, curiosity can actually play a very
Speaker 1: big role in healthy aging.
Speaker 8: There was a study that showed even like survive was
Speaker 8: greater in people who had higher levels of curiosity over
Speaker 8: a five year period. We don't know necessarily if it's
Speaker 8: the curiosity itself or if it's what the curiosity makes
Speaker 8: you do, which is maybe like engaging in other cognitive
Speaker 8: tasks that keep you sharp. But there is some research
Speaker 8: that curiosity is related to lower rates of dementia survival.
Speaker 8: So these are like really important things as we get older.
Speaker 4: Would it be safe to say that listening to part
Speaker 4: time genius could help you with your curiosity as you
Speaker 4: get older.
Speaker 8: I mean, I think that simply engaging with new information,
Speaker 8: learning new things, curiosity is sort of like a feedback loop.
Speaker 8: It's sort of like a cycle. So if you know
Speaker 8: a little bit about something, you might be curious to
Speaker 8: know the things that you don't know. And so then
Speaker 8: when you learn those things, it feels like, ah, yes,
Speaker 8: now I've learned these things. That feels good, right, It's
Speaker 8: a little bit rewarding, and then you I want to
Speaker 8: know more. So I think the more you're exposing yourself
Speaker 8: to new information, the more opportunities you have to experience curiosity.
Speaker 8: So yes, I think if you're listening to podcasts and
Speaker 8: especially part Time Genius, and you are learning all these
Speaker 8: new findings, this might spark curiosity to learn about other things.
Speaker 1: And there you have it. We are not saying that
Speaker 1: listening to the show could help you live longer, but
Speaker 1: we're not not saying that.
Speaker 3: We are definitely not saying that this podcast is not
Speaker 3: intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I
Speaker 3: just want to put that out there as the disclaimer.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you did that. The point is, in the
Speaker 1: same way we think about staying active physically as we
Speaker 1: get older, it's really important to think about staying curious mentally.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good advice, but you know, I want to
Speaker 3: go back to something that you said just a moment ago,
Speaker 3: that state curiosity didn't start that big increase until after
Speaker 3: middle age. And if trait curiosity is declining over time,
Speaker 3: that would mean that middle ages at the autumn of
Speaker 3: the barrel curiosity wise, right, that.
Speaker 1: Does seem to be the case for a lot of people.
Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit on Tuesday in
Speaker 1: the context of income. So people with very low incomes
Speaker 1: tend to score lower on curiosity scales, and that's likely
Speaker 1: because it's hard to have room for curiosity when you're
Speaker 1: in a survival mode. This obviously is a distinct problem
Speaker 1: from just being in your forties and fifties, but that
Speaker 1: does tend to be in age when you're stretched really thin.
Speaker 1: I mean, I obviously don't need to tell you this, right,
Speaker 1: Like you and I were both raising kids, we're caring
Speaker 1: for family members, we're working, you're active in your community
Speaker 1: and also looking for your keys, and you're trying to
Speaker 1: figure out what six seven means. All sorts of question.
Speaker 3: And stop and no matter how many times I ask,
Speaker 3: I never get a helpful answer on that. But you know,
Speaker 3: it's like Einstein was saying, curiosity requires freedom, and the
Speaker 3: more responsibilities you have, the less freedom you have.
Speaker 1: Right, So it may be inevitable that curiosity waxes and
Speaker 1: wanes over the course of our lives. It may also
Speaker 1: be times when we just don't have bandwidth for random
Speaker 1: rabbit holes and the ability to pursue answers to questions
Speaker 1: that you know aren't directly related to work or day
Speaker 1: to day stuff. But that doesn't mean you should give
Speaker 1: up on it, right, And anything we can do to
Speaker 1: activate our curious side, to remind ourselves that we're designed
Speaker 1: to be curious, will help us now and also in
Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, as for our future, we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about how technology can affect our curiosity, both in
Speaker 1: positive and negative ways. But first we've got to take
Speaker 1: a little break.
Speaker 3: Don't go anywhere, Welcome back to Part time Genius. So
Speaker 3: there's one big topic that's kind of been hanging over
Speaker 3: this whole episode as we talk about curiosity over our.
Speaker 2: Lifespans, and that's technology, which.
Speaker 3: You could argue has as much of an impact on
Speaker 3: kids as the schools do.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean for anyone who's raising kids, this is a
Speaker 1: constant question, right, like what is all this screen time
Speaker 1: doing to their brains? How much screen time is okay?
Speaker 1: You know, when you and I were growing up, if
Speaker 1: we had questions, we had to go look them up
Speaker 1: in the encyclopedia. We did have the internet, but it
Speaker 1: was so much slower, right, And so our kids have
Speaker 1: all the world's knowledge right there in their pockets. And
Speaker 1: it's a hard question. Is it good is it bad?
Speaker 1: I really don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess the answer is it depends on
Speaker 3: how you're using it, not surprisingly, and you know it
Speaker 3: depends on what kind of technology you're talking about too.
Speaker 3: So technology allows us to make this show, allows us
Speaker 3: to share with people, and I don't know what we
Speaker 3: do without online access to all the scientific journals and
Speaker 3: newspapers and research databases that we use completly. So if
Speaker 3: kids are going online to learn more about the things
Speaker 3: they're interested in, maybe things they wouldn't be able to
Speaker 3: learn about otherwise, that's a pretty great thing in my opinion.
Speaker 3: It's also worth noting that technology, including social media, can
Speaker 3: make it easier to learn from a more diverse group
Speaker 3: of people and to get firsthand information that really inspires curiosity,
Speaker 3: Like instead of just reading a book about Kenyan culture
Speaker 3: from the perspective of an English academic, you can watch
Speaker 3: videos made by people in Kenya talking about their own experiences.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: I hadn't actually thought about that, and I guess it's
Speaker 1: more like the endless scrolling on things like TikTok that
Speaker 1: isn't doing that much for us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely not so good.
Speaker 3: And doctor Dru says the problem is that type of
Speaker 3: content is designed to suck us in and keep our
Speaker 3: brains stuck in that lower gear, which isn't conducive to curiosity.
Speaker 4: It's a very low level cognitive demand in a lot
Speaker 4: of cases, So watching really short videos that are entertaining
Speaker 4: but don't really provide much information, that's using just enough
Speaker 4: of your cognitive resources that yet you don't have that
Speaker 4: kind of openness to being able to just think and
Speaker 4: wonder and observe. And the observation is really where that
Speaker 4: thinking comes from. Right, If you're not paying attention to
Speaker 4: what's going on, then it's going to be hard for
Speaker 4: you to notice something that you don't understand or that
Speaker 4: you want to figure out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I know exactly what this feels
Speaker 1: like when your mind is occupied but not engaged enough
Speaker 1: to kick into action.
Speaker 3: Yeah, now what happens if your mind isn't occupied at all?
Speaker 3: So Doctor Celeste Kidd, who we last heard from on
Speaker 3: Monday's episode, had a lot to say about the dangers
Speaker 3: of using AI as a substitute for actual thinking.
Speaker 9: They're being some difficulty in resolving something we're curious about
Speaker 9: is actually a good thing that can lead to unexpected
Speaker 9: new questions. We don't necessarily want technology that gives us
Speaker 9: just a piece of information we want right away. We
Speaker 9: really don't want technology that does that, but unreliably, I
Speaker 9: don't have a lot of optimism that things like check
Speaker 9: GPT are good for all kids for encouraging curiosity. I'm
Speaker 9: worried about the impact that they will have on diminishing
Speaker 9: children's curiosity by depleting it rapidly and sometimes in the
Speaker 9: absence of the information that they were seeking.
Speaker 2: Yikes.
Speaker 1: I mean, that is a chilling thought that these things
Speaker 1: depleting kid's curiosity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3: And the Doctor Kids said that the reason AI tools
Speaker 3: are especially harmful for curiosity is that they're really good
Speaker 3: at generating responses that seem authoritative, like even if you're
Speaker 3: totally wrong. And so if you think of curiosity as
Speaker 3: an itch, AI can actually scratch it for you very quickly,
Speaker 3: and then what happens, You know, the itch is gone
Speaker 3: and on like a real conversation or even flipping through
Speaker 3: the encyclopedia, there's less of an opportunity to go off
Speaker 3: on a tangent or you know, to notice something else
Speaker 3: you want to learn about, or even think critically about the.
Speaker 1: Response that you just got, which you know it's important
Speaker 1: to do, especially with AI, because it often gets things
Speaker 1: wrong or it's reflecting certain biases without necessarily disclosing all
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to this idea
Speaker 3: that curiosity is about the process, not just getting the
Speaker 3: right answer. So when producer Mary spoke to doctor Watley,
Speaker 3: she asked her, Okay, in a world of instant answers,
Speaker 3: how can we keep our desire for information from killing
Speaker 3: our curiosity.
Speaker 8: When you have a question or you have something you
Speaker 8: want to know, just hold on to that for a minute,
Speaker 8: think about it, try to come up with some answers,
Speaker 8: and then go and look it up. There's some research
Speaker 8: showing that actually generating and answer yourself can increase feelings
Speaker 8: of curiosity rather than simply just being asked a question
Speaker 8: and not ask to generate an answer.
Speaker 3: So with that in mind, here's today's listener activity. I
Speaker 3: know everybody's waiting on listener activity. So think of something
Speaker 3: you're curious about, and then do not google it. Instead,
Speaker 3: go for a walk or sit someplace quiet and let
Speaker 3: your mind wonder. Bring a pen and a paper and
Speaker 3: just jot down some ideas or a hypothesis that you
Speaker 3: think of, no matter how ridiculous they might seem. Give
Speaker 3: yourself an hour if you can, and then go back
Speaker 3: and google it.
Speaker 2: So then leave a.
Speaker 3: Comment on our Instagram or Blue Sky telling us what
Speaker 3: you were curious about and how this experiment went for you.
Speaker 3: The deadline is Sunday, October twenty sixth. Pick one common
Speaker 3: at random to win an official part Time Genius Prize pack.
Speaker 3: All the details and links are in the show notes
Speaker 3: and on our social media accounts.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm actually excited to try this.
Speaker 2: You are not eligible to win.
Speaker 1: Still I'm going to do it.
Speaker 2: That's the spirit, all right, Mango.
Speaker 3: We've covered a lot of ground today, So why don't
Speaker 3: we head down to the rec center where we have
Speaker 3: some recommendations for people who want to stay curious at
Speaker 3: any age.
Speaker 1: Let's do it.
Speaker 3: So, if you're a parent, cognitive scientist Elizabeth Bonowitz recommends
Speaker 3: shifting your mindset from how can I make my kid
Speaker 3: more curious? To how can I create more opportunities for
Speaker 3: my kid to be curious. So, in addition to generating
Speaker 3: predictions and identifying knowledge gaps, which we talked about earlier
Speaker 3: in the episode, of Course, Bonowitz says it's important for
Speaker 3: kids to recognize and be comfortable with ambiguity. Studies show
Speaker 3: that kids as young as four are able to identify
Speaker 3: conflicting pieces of evidence, and noticing that conflict activates curiosity
Speaker 3: because they want to make sense of the difference.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Watching TV is not usually a great opportunity
Speaker 1: for kids to be curious. In fact, it often takes
Speaker 1: the place of what scientists call exploratory activities like playing,
Speaker 1: and a study of over five thousand children did find
Speaker 1: that higher TV time led to lower curiosity scores in kindergarteners. However,
Speaker 1: the study also found that curiosity scores were higher when
Speaker 1: parents and guardians watched TV with their kids and also
Speaker 1: had conversations while doing so. Obviously, sometimes kids are just
Speaker 1: going to veg out in front of the TV. It happens,
Speaker 1: but if you can join them once in a while
Speaker 1: and talk about what you're watching, which can lead to
Speaker 1: interesting curiosity promoting conversations.
Speaker 3: And as for adults, in addition to making time in
Speaker 3: our busy lives for curiosity, we should be sure to
Speaker 3: eat plenty of produce and fish. So twenty twenty one
Speaker 3: study of adults in Japan found the higher consumption of fish,
Speaker 3: vet getables, and fruits was linked to higher curiosity scores. Now,
Speaker 3: this is somewhat limited because the average Japanese diet is
Speaker 3: higher and fish and vegetables than the average Western diet
Speaker 3: to begin with, so it's not clear on how global
Speaker 3: this finding is. But the researchers point out that antioxidant
Speaker 3: rich foods can promote the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine,
Speaker 3: which we know play a role in curiosity.
Speaker 1: And finally, for all of us, be mindful of how
Speaker 1: you're using technology. As tempting as it is, try not
Speaker 1: to spend hours scrolling mindlessly. It keeps your brain busy,
Speaker 1: but not active enough to really experience curiosity, and don't
Speaker 1: get so caught up in getting quick answers that you
Speaker 1: lose sight of the questions you're asking and the questions
Speaker 1: those questions might lead to. In fact, you could even
Speaker 1: take some inspiration from Dylan and break out the old
Speaker 1: World book Encyclopedia.
Speaker 2: It's right.
Speaker 3: Probably have to go into your attic or something like
Speaker 3: that to find it, or go to the local library,
Speaker 3: I'm guessing exactly.
Speaker 1: And while you're at the library, maybe you'll discover another
Speaker 1: book that looks interesting. And you know how this works. Well,
Speaker 1: that is a perfect note to end on. Don't forget
Speaker 1: to tune in tomorrow and be sure to follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Blue Sky at Part Time Genius we
Speaker 1: can keep up with our listener activities and giveaways this week.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Metra Bunshahi for collecting field tape, and to
Speaker 1: Jamie Cheru, Mary Wattley, and Celeste Kid for speaking with
Speaker 1: us for this episode. We'll be back tomorrow and in
Speaker 1: the meantime from Will Dylan, Mary Gabe and myself, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a
Speaker 1: production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by
Speaker 1: Will Pearson and me Mangashtikler, and research by our good
Speaker 1: pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced
Speaker 1: by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang.
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced for US iHeart by Katrina
Speaker 1: Norvel and Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha
Speaker 1: Gay trustee Dara Potts and Viney Shroy. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.