1 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope 2 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: and iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 2: Guess what, Mengo, What's that will So. 4 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 3: Earlier this week, we talked about how curiosity is strongest 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 3: when we encounter things that hit a certain intellectual sweet spot. 6 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: I guess you'd say, so. 7 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 3: Neither too familiar nor too confusing. And it turns out 8 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 3: the same thing is true for babies. So this comes 9 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 3: from a twenty twelve study that tested baby's reaction to 10 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 3: a variety of colorful animations. Now, researchers discovered that the 11 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 3: babies were most likely to look away from images that 12 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 3: were either very simple or very complex. So in between 13 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 3: images held their attention, which babies can be interpreted as 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 3: a measure of what they're curious about. 15 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: You know, I would have thought that they would have 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: been most interested in the simplest animations, which you know, 17 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: I don't mean to offend babies. 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you're out to offend babies, But from 19 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 3: an evolutionary standpoint, this actually makes perfect sense. So babies 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 3: need to be selective with their curiosity. They don't want 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 3: to waste their precious cognitive resources on stuff they already 22 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 3: know or the things that underdeveloped brains can't possibly grasp. 23 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 2: That's overwhelming. 24 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 3: So this way they can maximize their understanding the world 25 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 3: around them, which allows them to develop the behaviors that 26 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 3: they need to survive and thrive. Hopefully, and beyond their 27 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 3: response to animated images in the lab, there's this whole 28 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 3: body of research showing that even very young infants take 29 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 3: a systematic approach to exploring their environment. 30 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 2: So if you think about it. 31 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 3: That's pretty much what happens when they put new toys 32 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 3: in their mouth. So by doing that, they're answering multiple 33 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 3: questions is this edible? Will this hurt me? Am I 34 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: capable of manipulating this? And so getting these answers accomplishes 35 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 3: two things cognitively speaking, It reduces uncertainty and it closes 36 00:01:58,200 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: these knowledge gaps. 37 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: That is so fascinating because I just assume they weren't 38 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: that bright and they're just putting things in their mouth. 39 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: There you go again, fashion babies. I didn't realize they're 40 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: gonna be doing this today. 41 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: All of this sounds a lot like what we've been 42 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: talking about this week, though, right, Like it's all about curiosity. 43 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 3: That's right, But you know, how is curiosity different in 44 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 3: babies and children and adults, and you know when to 45 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 3: ask questions like how can school encourage or unfortunately sometimes 46 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: discourage curiosity? And is it possible to stay curious even 47 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 3: in your old age. Today we're taking a long view 48 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: of curiosity across our lifespan. So let's dive in. Hey, 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 3: their podcast listener is welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 50 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 3: Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my good 51 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: friend Mangesh hot Ticketter there in the booth working his 52 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: way through an entire set of the World Book Encyclopedia. 53 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 2: I didn't know this was still in print. 54 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 3: Remember our old friend Aj Jacobs read the entire encyclopedia. 55 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: But that's our pal and producer Dylan Fagan, and he 56 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 3: is really whizzing through it. It looks like he's up to 57 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 3: the letter l Oh yeah. 58 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: I mean what's crazy is that Encyclopedia's were like the 59 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: classic symbol of childhood curiosity. Right, You're supposed to go 60 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 1: find one and dig in. But I really don't know, 61 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: like do people even know what encyclopedia is? 62 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 3: And we probably should stop here just to clarify, Like 63 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: for those of you too young to know the World 64 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 3: Book Encyclopedia was I don't know, sort of like Wikipedia, 65 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 3: but a lot heavier. 66 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and you're editing it was less acceptable? Yes, yeah, 67 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: I have to do it with a pen anyway. As always, 68 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: we've got Dylan setting the perfect tone for today's episode, 69 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: and it is day four of our week long series 70 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: about curiosity, and today we're going to be talking about 71 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: how curiosity develops in children, what happens to our curiosity 72 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: as we age. We've also got another listener activity for you, 73 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: which means another chance to win a part time Genius 74 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: Prize pack, and we are going to get that in 75 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: just a little bit. But first, will how do you 76 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: sort of rate or rank your curiosity as a kid. 77 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 1: Were you a curious child? 78 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 3: I gotta be honest, I actually think that my curiosity 79 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 3: developed and grew more as like a middle schooler, as 80 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 3: I started getting into things like history and just the 81 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 3: sort of general knowledge stuff that we've loved learning. I 82 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: think as a as a younger kid, maybe it's not 83 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 3: fair to say I wasn't curious. It was just stuff 84 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 3: that was more like learning all the facts on baseball cards, 85 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 3: or like all the sports stuff that I might have 86 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 3: been into at that age, how about you. 87 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, when I was a toddler, we had a really 88 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: sturdy dog and and I would stand on top of 89 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: him and put stuff into the microwave. I would stand 90 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: and unlock the front door and run out into the 91 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: front yard and like it was a terror. I'd also 92 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: at my uncle's house in India. He lived in an 93 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: apartment in Bombay, and I I would run to the kitchen, 94 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: get a fork, run to the balcony and drop it. Yeah, 95 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: like doing a gravity experiment. Okay, okay, until someone yelled 96 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: up its raining forks and then my mom copy. 97 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're still alive and also not in prison 98 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: for anything you might have done for ingrats. 99 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: So one challenge we have in understanding baby's curiosity is 100 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: that babies cannot fill out questionnaires or participate in trivia games. 101 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 1: And if you remember some of the studies on adult 102 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: curiosity that we've discussed this week, these are actually two 103 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: key approaches that researchers use to find out how curious 104 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: people are and also what they're curious about. And so 105 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: with babies it is a little fuzzier. You have to 106 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:46,280 Speaker 1: rely on questionnaires filled out by caregivers, or you can 107 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: use eye trackers to measure where they're looking, and curiosity 108 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: researchers are open about the fact that these are imperfect measures, right, 109 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily capture exactly what's going on in a 110 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: baby's mind, and a baby, of course, has no way 111 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: to tell. So that's a little bit of a disclaimer here. 112 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: But experts believe curiosity is something that we are all 113 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: born with. It's kind of built into the human experience. 114 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: And at the same time, we know from adult studies 115 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: that some people are more curious than others. According to 116 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: a twenty twenty one Johns Hopkins study, months old babies 117 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: who showed the most interest in a magic trick became 118 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,559 Speaker 1: more curious as toddlers compared to babies who didn't seem 119 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: that curious about the trick. 120 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: I mean, that's fascinating, but you know what, my first 121 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 3: question is going to be, what was the magic trick? 122 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 1: There were two? Actually, there was one where a toy 123 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: appeared to pass through a solid wall and another where 124 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: the toy looked like it was floating in the air. 125 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 3: Okay, I can say I would be interested in these 126 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: if you showed me these tricks, Can I see them? 127 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: You have a lot in common with a curious baby. 128 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 1: But what's so cool about the study is that it 129 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: tells us two things. First of all, there's a difference 130 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: in curiosity levels and babies even before they're a year old. 131 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: And two, that different stayed consistent as they grew into toddlers, 132 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 1: starting to walk and talk, all those big developments, little 133 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,000 Speaker 1: changes that happened, they continue to stay curious through them. 134 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 3: So does this mean that some people are just naturally 135 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,119 Speaker 3: more curious than others. 136 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: I mean that might be the case. Remember, though, there 137 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: are several different flavors of curiosity. We talked about this 138 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: on Monday, But there's trait curiosity, which is when you're 139 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: just generally curious about the world around you, and then 140 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: there's state curiosity, which is when your curiosity gets activated 141 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 1: by specific things that happen to interest you. It is 142 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: entirely possible that as these babies get older, some of 143 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: them will discover something that sparks their curiosity in a 144 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 1: way that you know, those magic tricks didn't quite pull off. 145 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I certainly hope that's the case, because, according 146 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 3: to another study that looked at over six thousand kids 147 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: entering kindergarten, highly curious children tend to do better in school, 148 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 3: and that's I guess not a huge shock there. But 149 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: researchers ask parents and guardians to fill out questionnaires to 150 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 3: determine how curious each child was, and then after the 151 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 3: kids started school, they looked at how well they did 152 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 3: on math and various reading assignments and the results were 153 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 3: actually pretty amazing. They found that higher curiosity scores were 154 00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 3: directly related to better test scores across the board, but 155 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: the impact was greatest in kids from low income homes. 156 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 3: That's a big deal because we know that kids with 157 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 3: lower socioeconomic status tend to have less access to resources 158 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 3: that enrich their learning, and that in turn can affect 159 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 3: their academic performance. 160 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that is fascinating. So it sounds like encouraging curiosity 161 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: in young kids can actually help offset some inequalities in education. 162 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, let's do talk about that phrase encouraging curiosity, 163 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: because what do we really mean when we say that 164 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 3: or what does it look like in real life? And 165 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 3: so to answer those questions, we have to think about 166 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 3: the place where most kids spend most of their time, 167 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 3: and that is school. So I actually want to read 168 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 3: you something from an autobiographical sketch that Albert Einstein wrote 169 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 3: back in nineteen forty nine. He says, it is in 170 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 3: fact nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods 171 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 3: of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry, 172 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 3: for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in 173 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 3: need of freedom. Without this, it goes to and ruin 174 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: without fail. 175 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: I guess I'm not that surprised, right, Like, Einstein wasn't 176 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: the biggest fan of school. 177 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean he did okay academically, but he 178 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 3: struggled with the strict rules and structure, and what he 179 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 3: really wanted to do was learn math at a higher 180 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 3: level than he was being taught. So he got some 181 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 3: books and he taught himself. And obviously every school is different, 182 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: and schools have evolved a lot since Einstein was a kid, 183 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 3: but the point is still pretty valid. Kids need some 184 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 3: degree of intellectual freedom in order to exercise their curiosity. 185 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 3: So Doctor Jamie Jeru is an associate professor at the 186 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: University of Virginia, where she directs the Research and Education 187 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 3: and Learning Lab. Now she spent years studying children's curiosity 188 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 3: and its connection to learning and She says that an 189 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,239 Speaker 3: over emphasis on academic performance can actually make kids disconnect 190 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 3: from their natural curiosity. 191 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 4: Most educational systems that exist today are just so performance focused, 192 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 4: and we put so much emphasis on accuracy and excelling 193 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 4: as as quickly as possible. So when you go to school, 194 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,960 Speaker 4: if your job is to learn specific facts or specific skills, 195 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 4: you're going to focus on those, and being curious can 196 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,520 Speaker 4: actually be a risk to your academic performance. And I 197 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 4: see this even in my college students, where if they 198 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 4: become really curious about something, they might go off on 199 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 4: a tangent and actually not do what they're supposed to 200 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 4: do for the class assignments. 201 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: Now, luckily, doctor Jeru is an expert in this kind 202 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 3: of thing, so she's figured out a really cool solution. 203 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 4: I've tried to structure my classes and being so open 204 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 4: ended and having lots of different options so that I 205 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 4: can allow that curiosity. And also I do have to 206 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 4: have my learning objectives that I'm trying to meet, so 207 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 4: I've added curiosity as my first learning objectives so that 208 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 4: I can justify when students can go off in different directions. 209 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: That is such a wonderful way of thinking about school, 210 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Like you can make curiosity a priority along with all 211 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: the other goals of the class. 212 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: Right, yeah, right, Doctor Jeru says. 213 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 3: The other thing is de emphasizing the goal of getting 214 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,440 Speaker 3: the right answer, because once you do that, your brain 215 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:58,079 Speaker 3: is like, Okay, I'm done, you know, I don't need 216 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 3: to think about this anymore. That's pretty much the exact 217 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: opposite of curiosity. So instead, teachers can keep students, you know, 218 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 3: whether they're in kindergarten or college, focused on the process 219 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 3: of learning and how the information they encounter relates to 220 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: other things they. 221 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 4: Know, and so just little things like instead of saying 222 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,359 Speaker 4: something like, okay, now, everybody work on the first five problems, 223 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 4: you could say, see if you can find all the 224 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 4: answers and let me know when you're done. Or you 225 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 4: can say, see if you can figure out how to 226 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 4: solve them, and when you finish, or if you finish 227 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 4: before everyone else is done, see if you can find 228 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 4: a different way to solve them, and so really focusing 229 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 4: on the process. And also this idea that once you 230 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 4: know something, that's not the end. 231 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: I love that, the idea that acquiring knowledge is more 232 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: of a beginning than an end, right, And when I 233 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: remember things I've been really curious about or times when 234 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: I've gotten really engrossed in an idea. That's exactly what 235 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: it feels like like. Learning one thing just makes you 236 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: want to learn more, which is a very different idea 237 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: than some of the stuff I had to study in 238 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,559 Speaker 1: school just to pass the test. 239 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, as you know, sometimes 240 00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: you have to knuckle down and memorize a list of 241 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 3: state capitals. But educators are bringing some of those concepts 242 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: into the classroom, whether it's exploratory learning models that encourage 243 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 3: students to think through problems on their own, or even 244 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 3: just changing the way they ask questions. So doctor Jeru 245 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 3: says that giving multiple kids an opportunity to share their 246 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 3: answer or idea and how they came up with it 247 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 3: is actually more engaging than calling on the first person 248 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 3: who raises their hand. And among other things, this helps 249 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 3: kids realize that sometimes there are different ways at arriving 250 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 3: at the same answer, and that's basically catinep for curiosity. 251 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,520 Speaker 1: Well, now that we know a bit about curiosity in childhood, 252 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: it is time to look ahead. And if you start 253 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: reading about what happens to curiosity and adults, you'll find 254 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: a lot of people saying that as we get older, 255 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: we get less curious. But our question is is this 256 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 1: really true? And since we're starting to get up there 257 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: in age, this is a very important question for us. 258 00:12:57,360 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: So we're going to figure out the answer right after 259 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: this quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. It 260 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: is day four of our week long exploration of curiosity, 261 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 1: and trust me when I say you will not want 262 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: to miss the last episode of the series tomorrow. It 263 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: is a conversation with two of our very, very favorite podcasters. 264 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 3: I mean, they are definitely podcasters. You should know. That's 265 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: a little hint there. It's going to be fun. Okay, 266 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 3: man go speaking of curiosity changing over the years, as 267 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 3: you mentioned before the break, there is sort of a 268 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: conventional wisdom that curiosity decreases with age. Of course, conventional 269 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 3: wisdom isn't always black and white. So we asked our 270 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: good friend Mitra Banshahi to take her microphone to the 271 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 3: streets of Brooklyn and ask people of all ages about 272 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 3: their experience. 273 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: Here's what they had to say. Yeah, you get less 274 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,680 Speaker 2: curious as you get older. You like what you like, 275 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:01,560 Speaker 2: you do your. 276 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 5: Routine, and I look at my grandfather, he's just like 277 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 5: he doesn't even want to meet new people. At this point, 278 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 5: there just aren't enough hours in the day to learn 279 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 5: all the things that I want to learn how to do. 280 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 5: So I do think I am very curious still, but 281 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 5: I've there's kind of like a comfort in like having 282 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 5: figured a lot out. 283 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 6: I think if any had become more curious because I 284 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 6: guess I've seen more people I've met than I'm so 285 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 6: curious about all these things that have come into my life. 286 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 7: When I talk to people that are older than me, 287 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 7: it feels like they're more engaged sometimes, whereas I think 288 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,880 Speaker 7: people my age maybe like don't have the attention span 289 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 7: or just don't care enough to ask me about myself, 290 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 7: Whereas older people I feel like they want to know more. 291 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 7: I don't know if it's the same as like being curious, 292 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 7: but it feels like just interested in hearing stories more. 293 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: As I getting older, I'm not as curious. I'm more tired. 294 00:14:58,880 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 7: I don't have the energy. 295 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I definitely hear the tired part because I'm 296 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: probably more tired. But also, you know, my grandfather decided 297 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: that he wanted to learn a language in when he 298 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: was like seventy nine. Yeah, and the idea of like 299 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: embarking on a language and learning it honestly because he 300 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: wanted to write in that language. 301 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, he had this. 302 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: Idea for a story and he thought it could only 303 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: be delivered best in this language called Kandada, and so 304 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: he started getting a tutor for for the language. 305 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: And it's crazy. I do worry a little bit about 306 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: the tired part. 307 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 3: Is like when we when we get to the next 308 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 3: stage in life or maybe work is a little less busy, 309 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 3: Like it sounds so nice to think about learning another 310 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 3: language or picking up a new instrument or whatever it 311 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: may be. 312 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: And then I'm. 313 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: Also just a little bit nervous that we're gonna be like, 314 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 3: but I'm tired. 315 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: So let's make a pack. Let's make a pact that 316 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 2: we're gonna what are we gonna do? We're gonna learn 317 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: a language of scrubs rerun. 318 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: So many scrubs reruns? Wait, is that is that curiosity? 319 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? Okay, cool deal. 320 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: So so anyway, this idea that older people aren't as 321 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: curious as young people isn't just an opinion. I mean 322 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: you actually find it in scientific literature. It's backed up 323 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: by research and surveys. But the great thing about science, 324 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: and perhaps the thing I love most about science is 325 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: that it is constantly evolving, and this is definitely the 326 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: case with people being curious. So people like doctor Mary Wattley, 327 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: she is an assistant professor at Western Carolina University, is 328 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: studying memory and aging at a lab she leads there, 329 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: and last year she was at UCLA finishing up her 330 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: doctorate and as she told our super producer Mary, part 331 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: of the work involved bringing older adults into a lab 332 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: to do memory tests, and that is when she noticed 333 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: something interesting. 334 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 8: So when they would come in, they were often really 335 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 8: curious individuals and they were asking questions like what are 336 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 8: you testing? Can I learn the results of these things? 337 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: Doctor Wattley and her colleagues realized that this contradicted everything 338 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: they had read about older people's curiosity, and that's because 339 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: a lot of earlier research didn't differentiate between state and 340 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: trait curiosity. So they decided to test both types of 341 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: curiosity head to head. This involved a survey to measure 342 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: trait curiosity in a trivia game to measure state curiosity, 343 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: and the way it worked was they'd read a challenging 344 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: trivia question and ask people to take their best guests 345 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: and then they'd ask how interested they were in finding 346 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: out the answer. 347 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: I'm just kind of picturing doing this at like a 348 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 3: bar trivia night where they ask, you know, who had 349 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 3: been a the windshield wiper, and also who cares? 350 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,160 Speaker 2: I mean, I care? 351 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do because it was actually a self 352 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,400 Speaker 3: taught inventor named Mary Anderson from my home state of Alabama. 353 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: I'm glad you sent me up with that. 354 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 6: Yeah. 355 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 1: It is also good to know that doctor Wattley's studies 356 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: results paint a much more nuanced picture of curiosity as 357 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: we age. She did find that tray curiosity declined over time, 358 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: but state curiosity was totally different. Younger adults and middle 359 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: aged people showed low levels of state curiosity, but after 360 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 1: middle age, curiosity spikes and it keeps increasing well into 361 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: old age. And the reason for this is probably similar 362 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: to what you were saying about babies at the top 363 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: of the show. In other words, young adults, like babies, 364 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: need to be selective with their curiosity. When you're trying 365 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: to land your first job, or find a partner, or 366 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: just generally trying to figure out what adulting is. Treat 367 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 1: curiosity is an asset, so that's where you want to 368 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: devote your energy when you're much older, Like if you 369 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,480 Speaker 1: retire and your kids leave home, you suddenly have more 370 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,360 Speaker 1: time and space to indulge your interest in well, basically 371 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:35,439 Speaker 1: anything that interests you. 372 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes sense. 373 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 3: But I guess one question I have is does curiosity 374 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 3: have any specific benefits when you're older as opposed to 375 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 3: the obvious benefits when you're really young. And we know 376 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 3: there's that positive link between curiosity and academics, but once 377 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: you're out of school, that doesn't seem to matter, right, Yeah, So. 378 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: According to doctor Watley, curiosity can actually play a very 379 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: big role in healthy aging. 380 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 8: There was a study that showed even like survive was 381 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 8: greater in people who had higher levels of curiosity over 382 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 8: a five year period. We don't know necessarily if it's 383 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 8: the curiosity itself or if it's what the curiosity makes 384 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 8: you do, which is maybe like engaging in other cognitive 385 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 8: tasks that keep you sharp. But there is some research 386 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 8: that curiosity is related to lower rates of dementia survival. 387 00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 8: So these are like really important things as we get older. 388 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 4: Would it be safe to say that listening to part 389 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 4: time genius could help you with your curiosity as you 390 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 4: get older. 391 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 8: I mean, I think that simply engaging with new information, 392 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 8: learning new things, curiosity is sort of like a feedback loop. 393 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 8: It's sort of like a cycle. So if you know 394 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 8: a little bit about something, you might be curious to 395 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 8: know the things that you don't know. And so then 396 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 8: when you learn those things, it feels like, ah, yes, 397 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 8: now I've learned these things. That feels good, right, It's 398 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 8: a little bit rewarding, and then you I want to 399 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 8: know more. So I think the more you're exposing yourself 400 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:10,080 Speaker 8: to new information, the more opportunities you have to experience curiosity. 401 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,800 Speaker 8: So yes, I think if you're listening to podcasts and 402 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 8: especially part Time Genius, and you are learning all these 403 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 8: new findings, this might spark curiosity to learn about other things. 404 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: And there you have it. We are not saying that 405 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,479 Speaker 1: listening to the show could help you live longer, but 406 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: we're not not saying that. 407 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 3: We are definitely not saying that this podcast is not 408 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 3: intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I 409 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 3: just want to put that out there as the disclaimer. 410 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: I'm glad you did that. The point is, in the 411 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: same way we think about staying active physically as we 412 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: get older, it's really important to think about staying curious mentally. 413 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's good advice, but you know, I want to 414 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 3: go back to something that you said just a moment ago, 415 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 3: that state curiosity didn't start that big increase until after 416 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 3: middle age. And if trait curiosity is declining over time, 417 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 3: that would mean that middle ages at the autumn of 418 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: the barrel curiosity wise, right, that. 419 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: Does seem to be the case for a lot of people. 420 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: We talked about this a little bit on Tuesday in 421 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: the context of income. So people with very low incomes 422 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: tend to score lower on curiosity scales, and that's likely 423 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: because it's hard to have room for curiosity when you're 424 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: in a survival mode. This obviously is a distinct problem 425 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: from just being in your forties and fifties, but that 426 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: does tend to be in age when you're stretched really thin. 427 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I obviously don't need to tell you this, right, 428 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,680 Speaker 1: Like you and I were both raising kids, we're caring 429 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: for family members, we're working, you're active in your community 430 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,199 Speaker 1: and also looking for your keys, and you're trying to 431 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: figure out what six seven means. All sorts of question. 432 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 3: And stop and no matter how many times I ask, 433 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 3: I never get a helpful answer on that. But you know, 434 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,679 Speaker 3: it's like Einstein was saying, curiosity requires freedom, and the 435 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 3: more responsibilities you have, the less freedom you have. 436 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: Right, So it may be inevitable that curiosity waxes and 437 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: wanes over the course of our lives. It may also 438 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,959 Speaker 1: be times when we just don't have bandwidth for random 439 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: rabbit holes and the ability to pursue answers to questions 440 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: that you know aren't directly related to work or day 441 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: to day stuff. But that doesn't mean you should give 442 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: up on it, right, And anything we can do to 443 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: activate our curious side, to remind ourselves that we're designed 444 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,320 Speaker 1: to be curious, will help us now and also in 445 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, as for our future, we're going to 446 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: talk about how technology can affect our curiosity, both in 447 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: positive and negative ways. But first we've got to take 448 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: a little break. 449 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 3: Don't go anywhere, Welcome back to Part time Genius. So 450 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 3: there's one big topic that's kind of been hanging over 451 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 3: this whole episode as we talk about curiosity over our. 452 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 2: Lifespans, and that's technology, which. 453 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 3: You could argue has as much of an impact on 454 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 3: kids as the schools do. 455 00:22:59,160 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 456 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: I mean for anyone who's raising kids, this is a 457 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: constant question, right, like what is all this screen time 458 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: doing to their brains? How much screen time is okay? 459 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: You know, when you and I were growing up, if 460 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: we had questions, we had to go look them up 461 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: in the encyclopedia. We did have the internet, but it 462 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 1: was so much slower, right, And so our kids have 463 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: all the world's knowledge right there in their pockets. And 464 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: it's a hard question. Is it good is it bad? 465 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:23,719 Speaker 1: I really don't know. 466 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess the answer is it depends on 467 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 3: how you're using it, not surprisingly, and you know it 468 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 3: depends on what kind of technology you're talking about too. 469 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 3: So technology allows us to make this show, allows us 470 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,399 Speaker 3: to share with people, and I don't know what we 471 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 3: do without online access to all the scientific journals and 472 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 3: newspapers and research databases that we use completly. So if 473 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 3: kids are going online to learn more about the things 474 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 3: they're interested in, maybe things they wouldn't be able to 475 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 3: learn about otherwise, that's a pretty great thing in my opinion. 476 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 3: It's also worth noting that technology, including social media, can 477 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 3: make it easier to learn from a more diverse group 478 00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 3: of people and to get firsthand information that really inspires curiosity, 479 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 3: Like instead of just reading a book about Kenyan culture 480 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 3: from the perspective of an English academic, you can watch 481 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 3: videos made by people in Kenya talking about their own experiences. 482 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. 483 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 1: I hadn't actually thought about that, and I guess it's 484 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: more like the endless scrolling on things like TikTok that 485 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 1: isn't doing that much for us. 486 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely not so good. 487 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,679 Speaker 3: And doctor Dru says the problem is that type of 488 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 3: content is designed to suck us in and keep our 489 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 3: brains stuck in that lower gear, which isn't conducive to curiosity. 490 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: It's a very low level cognitive demand in a lot 491 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 4: of cases, So watching really short videos that are entertaining 492 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 4: but don't really provide much information, that's using just enough 493 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,959 Speaker 4: of your cognitive resources that yet you don't have that 494 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 4: kind of openness to being able to just think and 495 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 4: wonder and observe. And the observation is really where that 496 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 4: thinking comes from. Right, If you're not paying attention to 497 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 4: what's going on, then it's going to be hard for 498 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 4: you to notice something that you don't understand or that 499 00:24:57,720 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 4: you want to figure out. 500 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I know exactly what this feels 501 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: like when your mind is occupied but not engaged enough 502 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: to kick into action. 503 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, now what happens if your mind isn't occupied at all? 504 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 3: So Doctor Celeste Kidd, who we last heard from on 505 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 3: Monday's episode, had a lot to say about the dangers 506 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 3: of using AI as a substitute for actual thinking. 507 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 9: They're being some difficulty in resolving something we're curious about 508 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 9: is actually a good thing that can lead to unexpected 509 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 9: new questions. We don't necessarily want technology that gives us 510 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 9: just a piece of information we want right away. We 511 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 9: really don't want technology that does that, but unreliably, I 512 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,640 Speaker 9: don't have a lot of optimism that things like check 513 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 9: GPT are good for all kids for encouraging curiosity. I'm 514 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 9: worried about the impact that they will have on diminishing 515 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 9: children's curiosity by depleting it rapidly and sometimes in the 516 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 9: absence of the information that they were seeking. 517 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: Yikes. 518 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: I mean, that is a chilling thought that these things 519 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:01,959 Speaker 1: depleting kid's curiosity. 520 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. 521 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 3: And the Doctor Kids said that the reason AI tools 522 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 3: are especially harmful for curiosity is that they're really good 523 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 3: at generating responses that seem authoritative, like even if you're 524 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 3: totally wrong. And so if you think of curiosity as 525 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 3: an itch, AI can actually scratch it for you very quickly, 526 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 3: and then what happens, You know, the itch is gone 527 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,200 Speaker 3: and on like a real conversation or even flipping through 528 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 3: the encyclopedia, there's less of an opportunity to go off 529 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: on a tangent or you know, to notice something else 530 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,960 Speaker 3: you want to learn about, or even think critically about the. 531 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 1: Response that you just got, which you know it's important 532 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: to do, especially with AI, because it often gets things 533 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: wrong or it's reflecting certain biases without necessarily disclosing all 534 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: of that. 535 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to this idea 536 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: that curiosity is about the process, not just getting the 537 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 3: right answer. So when producer Mary spoke to doctor Watley, 538 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 3: she asked her, Okay, in a world of instant answers, 539 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 3: how can we keep our desire for information from killing 540 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 3: our curiosity. 541 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 8: When you have a question or you have something you 542 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 8: want to know, just hold on to that for a minute, 543 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 8: think about it, try to come up with some answers, 544 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 8: and then go and look it up. There's some research 545 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 8: showing that actually generating and answer yourself can increase feelings 546 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 8: of curiosity rather than simply just being asked a question 547 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 8: and not ask to generate an answer. 548 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 3: So with that in mind, here's today's listener activity. I 549 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 3: know everybody's waiting on listener activity. So think of something 550 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 3: you're curious about, and then do not google it. Instead, 551 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 3: go for a walk or sit someplace quiet and let 552 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 3: your mind wonder. Bring a pen and a paper and 553 00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 3: just jot down some ideas or a hypothesis that you 554 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 3: think of, no matter how ridiculous they might seem. Give 555 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 3: yourself an hour if you can, and then go back 556 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 3: and google it. 557 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: So then leave a. 558 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 3: Comment on our Instagram or Blue Sky telling us what 559 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 3: you were curious about and how this experiment went for you. 560 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 3: The deadline is Sunday, October twenty sixth. Pick one common 561 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 3: at random to win an official part Time Genius Prize pack. 562 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 3: All the details and links are in the show notes 563 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 3: and on our social media accounts. 564 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: You know, I'm actually excited to try this. 565 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: You are not eligible to win. 566 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: Still I'm going to do it. 567 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 2: That's the spirit, all right, Mango. 568 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 3: We've covered a lot of ground today, So why don't 569 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 3: we head down to the rec center where we have 570 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 3: some recommendations for people who want to stay curious at 571 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:23,879 Speaker 3: any age. 572 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 1: Let's do it. 573 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 3: So, if you're a parent, cognitive scientist Elizabeth Bonowitz recommends 574 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 3: shifting your mindset from how can I make my kid 575 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 3: more curious? To how can I create more opportunities for 576 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: my kid to be curious. So, in addition to generating 577 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 3: predictions and identifying knowledge gaps, which we talked about earlier 578 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 3: in the episode, of Course, Bonowitz says it's important for 579 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 3: kids to recognize and be comfortable with ambiguity. Studies show 580 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 3: that kids as young as four are able to identify 581 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 3: conflicting pieces of evidence, and noticing that conflict activates curiosity 582 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 3: because they want to make sense of the difference. 583 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: That's interesting. Watching TV is not usually a great opportunity 584 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: for kids to be curious. In fact, it often takes 585 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: the place of what scientists call exploratory activities like playing, 586 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: and a study of over five thousand children did find 587 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: that higher TV time led to lower curiosity scores in kindergarteners. However, 588 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: the study also found that curiosity scores were higher when 589 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: parents and guardians watched TV with their kids and also 590 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: had conversations while doing so. Obviously, sometimes kids are just 591 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 1: going to veg out in front of the TV. It happens, 592 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: but if you can join them once in a while 593 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: and talk about what you're watching, which can lead to 594 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: interesting curiosity promoting conversations. 595 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 3: And as for adults, in addition to making time in 596 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 3: our busy lives for curiosity, we should be sure to 597 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 3: eat plenty of produce and fish. So twenty twenty one 598 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: study of adults in Japan found the higher consumption of fish, 599 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 3: vet getables, and fruits was linked to higher curiosity scores. Now, 600 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 3: this is somewhat limited because the average Japanese diet is 601 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 3: higher and fish and vegetables than the average Western diet 602 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 3: to begin with, so it's not clear on how global 603 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 3: this finding is. But the researchers point out that antioxidant 604 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 3: rich foods can promote the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine, 605 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: which we know play a role in curiosity. 606 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: And finally, for all of us, be mindful of how 607 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: you're using technology. As tempting as it is, try not 608 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: to spend hours scrolling mindlessly. It keeps your brain busy, 609 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 1: but not active enough to really experience curiosity, and don't 610 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: get so caught up in getting quick answers that you 611 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: lose sight of the questions you're asking and the questions 612 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: those questions might lead to. In fact, you could even 613 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: take some inspiration from Dylan and break out the old 614 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: World book Encyclopedia. 615 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: It's right. 616 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: Probably have to go into your attic or something like 617 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 3: that to find it, or go to the local library, 618 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,120 Speaker 3: I'm guessing exactly. 619 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: And while you're at the library, maybe you'll discover another 620 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: book that looks interesting. And you know how this works. Well, 621 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,720 Speaker 1: that is a perfect note to end on. Don't forget 622 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: to tune in tomorrow and be sure to follow us 623 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram and Blue Sky at Part Time Genius we 624 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: can keep up with our listener activities and giveaways this week. 625 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: Thanks to Metra Bunshahi for collecting field tape, and to 626 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,560 Speaker 1: Jamie Cheru, Mary Wattley, and Celeste Kid for speaking with 627 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: us for this episode. We'll be back tomorrow and in 628 00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: the meantime from Will Dylan, Mary Gabe and myself, thank 629 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a 630 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by 631 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: Will Pearson and me Mangashtikler, and research by our good 632 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced 633 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang. 634 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: The show is executive produced for US iHeart by Katrina 635 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: Norvel and Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha 636 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: Gay trustee Dara Potts and Viney Shroy. For more podcasts 637 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 638 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.