Speaker 1: I am drained. I've been looking for her for twenty
Speaker 1: four hours. They should have taken me instead of her.
Speaker 1: Now that's a direct quote, y'all. And if you were
Speaker 1: watching TV that night when the boyfriend of a mother
Speaker 1: of a two year old child was making a statement
Speaker 1: on TV, you might have thought, Man, this poor guy,
Speaker 1: he's been searching for this baby and Kate Finder. But
Speaker 1: if you had taken statement analysis like I have, there's
Speaker 1: some things about that statement that would have made you
Speaker 1: sick to your stomach. Later they found that the boyfriend
Speaker 1: had dumped the two year old's body and a storm drain.
Speaker 1: Statement analysis is something that I believe every rookie officer
Speaker 1: and seasoned detective should have. I believe prosecutors in CSI
Speaker 1: and EMTs and paramedics should have it. Anyone that could
Speaker 1: possibly hear a spontaneous utterance from a victim or a
Speaker 1: suspect or a witness should have statement analysis. Y'all Tonight,
Speaker 1: we are lucky to have with us Jack Fox. He's
Speaker 1: a former media professional who shifted his focus from influencing
Speaker 1: people with his own words to uncovering how others use
Speaker 1: their words to deceive. He has analyzed statements of serial killers,
Speaker 1: public apologies, disgrace celebrities. We've had a few of those lately.
Speaker 1: And he has developed a system that has over fifty
Speaker 1: indicators to assess the truthfulness or deception in statements. Now
Speaker 1: y'all can follow him and has an allo says on
Speaker 1: his own channel, never a truer word. His clients include
Speaker 1: law enforcement, private investigators, human resource professionals, investigative journalists, and
Speaker 1: private individuals. Jack Fox, Welcome to z own seven.
Speaker 2: Hey, Cheryl, thank you so much for having me. It's
Speaker 2: such an honor to be here.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm digging the accent. We're going to have a
Speaker 1: good time. Maybe we can understand each other the whole
Speaker 1: way through.
Speaker 3: I'm going to talk very slowly and clearly.
Speaker 1: Oh I love the way you talked, Sugar. All right
Speaker 1: now listen. You and I started messaging each other after
Speaker 1: Georgia had a school shooting incident on September the fourth,
Speaker 1: and you and I once we started to see a
Speaker 1: released video where the alleged shooter, Cole Gray, was interviewed
Speaker 1: a year prior to the school shooting. Now, for everybody
Speaker 1: that might not know, in Georgia, a fourteen year old
Speaker 1: Colt Gray has been arrested for a school shooting that
Speaker 1: occurred on September fourth, where he killed four people, two
Speaker 1: students and two teachers, and injured nine others. And it
Speaker 1: all started about nine thirty eight am, when first period ended,
Speaker 1: students had about seven minutes between classes. Colt was fixing
Speaker 1: the head to his second period class, which was algebra,
Speaker 1: started about nine forty five. Once he was in the classroom,
Speaker 1: he wasn't there long and asked to go to the restroom.
Speaker 1: He was given permission. By nine point fifty, his mama
Speaker 1: was calling the school saying there was a quote extreme
Speaker 1: emergency end quote. She had received a text message from
Speaker 1: her sign that simply said I'm sorry, so she panicked,
Speaker 1: thinking he was either going to hurt himself or possibly others.
Speaker 1: The school administration got involved, the school counselor got involved.
Speaker 1: They tried to find where is he right now? They
Speaker 1: determined he was an algebra class. When they went to
Speaker 1: go get him and pulled a student out of class
Speaker 1: to talk to him, it was the wrong student. It
Speaker 1: was a student, same class, same time, same grade, with
Speaker 1: a similar name. Colt comes back for the bathroom. The
Speaker 1: door when it shuts behind you when you leave the
Speaker 1: class locks automatically like a hotel room door. There's a
Speaker 1: small narrow pane of glass in the door where students
Speaker 1: got up to go let him back in, but possibly
Speaker 1: noticed he had a weapon and did not allow him
Speaker 1: entry into the classroom. Very quickly after that, there were
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen shots that rang out. There may have
Speaker 1: been an opportunity to intervene a a year before, when
Speaker 1: the FBI got intelligence that an IP address associated with
Speaker 1: Colt Gray at his former address, had made some statements
Speaker 1: about a school shooting. Now I'm going to be very clear,
Speaker 1: Jack and I are not here to Monday Morning quarterback.
Speaker 1: We are not saying anyone failed to do their job.
Speaker 1: We are not saying anybody is responsible for what happened
Speaker 1: on September fourth, except the shooter. What we do want
Speaker 1: to do is talk a little bit about what statement
Speaker 1: and analysis can do for you in any investigation, and
Speaker 1: how if they had had those tools, they might have
Speaker 1: been able just on the fly to hear some things
Speaker 1: that Colt Gray said or didn't say that might have
Speaker 1: pushed them to talk to him a little longer and
Speaker 1: maybe even more aggressively. So Jack, I'm going to let
Speaker 1: you take it over and I want you just to
Speaker 1: kind of talk to us about as soon as you
Speaker 1: saw the video, and Colt's father started talking and then
Speaker 1: he went in the house and he got cold and
Speaker 1: brought him outside. Some of the things that were said
Speaker 1: and what those things meant to you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that in statement analysis, Cheryl, you can
Speaker 2: learn a lot about through truth and deception by analyzing
Speaker 2: someone's words, and you can also learn a lot about
Speaker 2: someone's personality and what was in their head at the
Speaker 2: time they're talking. And I think having watched this video,
Speaker 2: I get a lot about the father calling what sort
Speaker 2: of person he is, what's important to him, And then
Speaker 2: from Colt I get deception from him around this. I
Speaker 2: think the police went there because there was an allegation
Speaker 2: someone had made a comment about shooting up the school
Speaker 2: on a discord server. It came from their old address.
Speaker 2: They tracked Colt down and they wanted to talk to
Speaker 2: him about that, and so they talked to Colin for
Speaker 2: quite a while, which is interesting within itself. Maybe we'll
Speaker 2: come back to that later. But when Colt comes out finally,
Speaker 2: the detective says to or the policeman says to him, Hey, Colt,
Speaker 2: what's going on, Bud, so did your dad kind of
Speaker 2: explain everything? And then Coleke says he said something about
Speaker 2: shooting up a school and then they detected. The policeman
Speaker 2: sorry again, says this really pertinent question. The question is
Speaker 2: the crux of the whole visit. Did you say something
Speaker 2: about a school shooting? And Colt's answer is never. I
Speaker 2: just told him I don't know what. Maybe they must
Speaker 2: hurt somebody else. I don't remember saying that. And the
Speaker 2: policeman interjects, never ever said, and Colke interrupts and says, no,
Speaker 2: I swear now under my system, in those very few words,
Speaker 2: there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight
Speaker 2: nine indicators that deception could be happening within that answer.
Speaker 2: So if you had some training in statement analysis, your
Speaker 2: ears would have pricked up at that point and you
Speaker 2: would have asked, you know, some more questions. You would
Speaker 2: have gone, I'm not hearing the truth here, or there's
Speaker 2: a high chance I'm not hearing the truth here.
Speaker 1: Jack. Starting with the very first word, yes.
Speaker 3: The first word is never. Yes.
Speaker 2: Never is a really unreliable word. It's very ill defined,
Speaker 2: isn't it. I guess it means not ever. But we
Speaker 2: say it never in so many different ways, and it
Speaker 2: never is not synonymous with the word no. So that's
Speaker 2: one of the first things I noticed here is it's
Speaker 2: a yes, no, don't no question. That's a question that
Speaker 2: can be answered truthfully with yes, no or I don't know.
Speaker 2: And the question is did you say something about a
Speaker 2: school shooting? And instead of saying no, he says never,
Speaker 2: And that never is there's no word, there's no proof
Speaker 2: word that proves a lie is being told to you.
Speaker 2: You can't just hear something and go yeah, that's definitely
Speaker 2: a lie. But the word never is something that should
Speaker 2: put you on alert here that deception is happening. Lance
Speaker 2: Armstrong very famously never taking handsing performance enhancing drugs. So
Speaker 2: never is should just raise your alarm bells and that
Speaker 2: you go, oh, what's going on here. The next one,
Speaker 2: he uses the word just, very similar to never. Just
Speaker 2: often leads to deception, not saying every time you hear
Speaker 2: the word just, you're being lied to. But it's a
Speaker 2: word that we use to focus in on just one thing,
Speaker 2: you know, So if the whole truth is made up
Speaker 2: of a bundle of colors with just, they're just wanting
Speaker 2: you to focus on just one single part here and
Speaker 2: don't pay attention to any of the other ones. So
Speaker 2: he has the word just there, and then he just
Speaker 2: does not say, no, I did not talk about a
Speaker 2: school shooting, which is what you would expect to hear
Speaker 2: from someone who has not spoken about a school shooting.
Speaker 2: And then he offers up all sorts of explanations, maybe
Speaker 2: they misheard somebody else.
Speaker 3: Well, look, there's great.
Speaker 2: All that's been said here is that someone has made
Speaker 2: a threat or mentioned a school shooting. But he's saying
Speaker 2: there that someone has He knows someone has a threat
Speaker 2: of us school shooting, not read it or you know,
Speaker 2: sensed it or anything like that. He knows that someone
Speaker 2: has said something about a school shooting because he says
Speaker 2: they misheard somebody else. And then I don't remember saying that. Well,
Speaker 2: to not remember saying something, you have to have the
Speaker 2: concept in your head that you may have said it,
Speaker 2: you just don't remember saying it. So though that very
Speaker 2: first ten words fifteen words, he says so many indicators
Speaker 2: that deception could be happening in there, and at that
Speaker 2: point that really was an opportunity to drill.
Speaker 3: Down and go right, come on, what's going on?
Speaker 1: Here, that's right, absolutely, And you know, just to let
Speaker 1: people understand, think about when you use the word just
Speaker 1: if you're trying to make something not same as bad.
Speaker 1: Oh it's just a little checkup. Well, you may know
Speaker 1: it's more than a checkup. You may be real concerned
Speaker 1: about something, but you're trying to comfort your children or
Speaker 1: make it seem like it's probably not going to be
Speaker 1: that big of a deal. If you go to the
Speaker 1: car dealership, Oh this car, Oh, it's just seventy five
Speaker 1: thousand dollars, Just seventy five thousand dollars. But again they're
Speaker 1: lessing it. They're like comparing it to things like this
Speaker 1: is not that expensive. So they're telling you almost a con.
Speaker 2: I think that's a great point, which is that not
Speaker 2: all deception is malicious. You know, not all deception involves
Speaker 2: covering up crime or so on. We deceive in our
Speaker 2: lives all the time, you know, we try and minimize
Speaker 2: things or you know, yes, it's no big deal. And
Speaker 2: so actually, if you think about how you deceive someone
Speaker 2: when you're not being malicious, but when you're just trying
Speaker 2: to get your own way or get your own point across,
Speaker 2: you will spot that in other people's language if you
Speaker 2: listen to them talk or read what they have written,
Speaker 2: like like with coked.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 2: He then finishes off with you know the police guy system,
Speaker 2: you've never ever said and interrupts. Now, interrupting especially on
Speaker 2: the authority figure, shows.
Speaker 3: Attention and a nervousness. There.
Speaker 2: Now the police turn off on your porch. You may
Speaker 2: well be tense and nervous, whether you are guilty or innocent.
Speaker 2: But again, it's all these data points that come up
Speaker 2: that just indicate deception could be happening. So it interrupts,
Speaker 2: and he says, no, I swear, and that is another
Speaker 2: indication that you could be being lied to when people
Speaker 2: start telling you no, honestly, this is what's happening, or
Speaker 2: to tell you the truth. I feel this. Why are
Speaker 2: they indicating that they are being honest. There's I guess
Speaker 2: two reasons. They have not been honest all the other times,
Speaker 2: and now they're saying but now I am being honest,
Speaker 2: or they just really want you to believe them, which
Speaker 2: is why he's saying, I swear. And it sounds like
Speaker 2: the most solid thing when we say I swear to
Speaker 2: God or you know, on my father's life or things
Speaker 2: like that, but really so often these phrases are used
Speaker 2: to convince someone of a bit of deception, which I
Speaker 2: think is what Colt is doing here with the no
Speaker 2: I swear.
Speaker 1: Yep, And again anytime they bring God into it, I
Speaker 1: start paying attention.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's very much.
Speaker 2: There's sort there's a concept called the rezume statement, which
Speaker 2: is when someone tries to say, hey, look what a
Speaker 2: great person I am. Therefore I can't be lying. Therefore
Speaker 2: I can't be deceiving you. And that very much is one.
Speaker 2: When they invoke a God, you're supposed to think, oh,
Speaker 2: this person is a very religious person. Therefore, if you're
Speaker 2: a very religious person and invoking God's name, then you
Speaker 2: must live in fear of, you know, committing a lie
Speaker 2: and using your God as a cover for it. Therefore,
Speaker 2: this person must be telling the truth. Well, actually, the
Speaker 2: reality is very often people will swear to God or
Speaker 2: God's honest truth, and those will be used to convince
Speaker 2: us of a deception. The thing is, lying is very
Speaker 2: hard because we don't really think about how we tell
Speaker 2: the truth.
Speaker 3: So well, do the lie.
Speaker 2: With things like I swear to God or I swear
Speaker 2: or honestly, and we'll repeat the lie a few times,
Speaker 2: because we think the more that we say the lie,
Speaker 2: the more likely that lie is to be believed absolutely.
Speaker 1: And most people can't do it twice. Most people cannot
Speaker 1: say the same lie twice.
Speaker 2: The reason that statement analysis works is that lying is
Speaker 2: one of the hardest things that we have to do,
Speaker 2: because you have to construct a lie in your head.
Speaker 2: You know, you have to be creative and make it up.
Speaker 2: You have to make sure that lie as you know
Speaker 2: it in your head matches the truth as other people
Speaker 2: might know it. You know, you can't say that you
Speaker 2: were somewhere when you know that someone else saw you
Speaker 2: somewhere else. So your lie has to match all these
Speaker 2: facts that other people know. You have to remember that
Speaker 2: lie and you have to which is not easy because
Speaker 2: it's stored in a different part of your brain from
Speaker 2: where things you actually experienced are stored, and you have
Speaker 2: to not get it mixed up with the truth that's
Speaker 2: in you're that different part of your brain. Therefore, lying
Speaker 2: is so hard. There's indicators verbally that you're lying, but
Speaker 2: also the truth will just leak out because the truth
Speaker 2: is in your head, it's in a very different place
Speaker 2: from where the lie is constructed, and little indicators will
Speaker 2: come out in her words as to what the truth is.
Speaker 1: Jack, I hope everybody is listening to you so intently,
Speaker 1: because if y'all remember Scott Peterson the night before he
Speaker 1: told Lacy and his sister law he was gonna go golfing. Well,
Speaker 1: then he was seen at the marinay, so then he
Speaker 1: had to change it. Oh no, I went vision because
Speaker 1: it was too cold to play golf. Now it was
Speaker 1: too cold to play golf, but it's not too cold
Speaker 1: to get on a boat on water and have that
Speaker 1: wind and water hit you. I mean again, your lives
Speaker 1: are not going to make sense. You can't keep up
Speaker 1: with them. And then it's well, you didn't tell anybody
Speaker 1: you even had a boat. I mean, it's one thing
Speaker 1: after the other after the other. Then he's got a lie.
Speaker 1: Oh well, I wanted to surprise my father in law,
Speaker 1: but you didn't. You never even surprised, asked him with
Speaker 1: So you're going to fail. And the more you talk
Speaker 1: the better. So now after he says I swear, then
Speaker 1: what happens after.
Speaker 3: He says I swear?
Speaker 2: Now this is another classic deception technique. The policeman says,
Speaker 2: so you use discord and Colt replies Discord with a
Speaker 2: raised inflection, which implies a question back. And this is
Speaker 2: a deceptive technique to buy thinking time. So if you
Speaker 2: get a question and a response to a question, this
Speaker 2: is to allow the person to think of what is
Speaker 2: that they want to say. They don't have the perfect
Speaker 2: words formed in their head yet to answer the question
Speaker 2: the way they want to answer the question, so they
Speaker 2: ask the question back in order to buy themselves some
Speaker 2: thinking time. Hopefully the person that asked the first question
Speaker 2: will come back with a clarification or you know, some
Speaker 2: more information. They don't really want that clarification or more information,
Speaker 2: They just want the thing time to form the answer
Speaker 2: that that will best serve their lie. So when he
Speaker 2: says Discord has a question, the police guy says yes, sir,
Speaker 2: and he says um, which again means he's still thinking
Speaker 2: about the answer because he's put this um in there.
Speaker 2: I used to, but I haven't, is what he says
Speaker 2: on the end of that. So, you know, we are
Speaker 2: so sure this must have lasted about fifteen seconds on
Speaker 2: that video. But just pop pop, pop pop, These red
Speaker 2: flags of deception are popping up. At the very least,
Speaker 2: we can surmise that he is tense and nervous around
Speaker 2: these questions, that he is not wanting to give straight
Speaker 2: answers to them, and that is just prime. Let's dig
Speaker 2: deeper into what's going on here, you know, like I say,
Speaker 2: there's nothing that says, hey, this guy's definitely lying. But
Speaker 2: there's so many red flags and indicators just in these
Speaker 2: words that this was primed to put a little bit
Speaker 2: more pressure on or to ask, you know, reask the
Speaker 2: questions and re ask the question rather than just accepting
Speaker 2: the first answer you hear when there are so many
Speaker 2: red flags going on there.
Speaker 1: I can't agree with you more because I remember I
Speaker 1: could not reach out to you fast enough, and I
Speaker 1: was like, Jack, please tell me you're watching this because
Speaker 1: it was for me the same flag flag flag, flag,
Speaker 1: flag flag. I mean, you couldn't miss it if you
Speaker 1: had had this training.
Speaker 2: Yes, and these are the things we've noticed so far.
Speaker 2: So you don't have to spend weeks or months studying
Speaker 2: in a classroom, but really just picking up some of
Speaker 2: these red flag words and some of these techniques that
Speaker 2: people will use, like the question and response to a question,
Speaker 2: and when you're aware of them, all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: you can just understand a little bit more about what
Speaker 2: is going on in the head of the person you
Speaker 2: were talking to in order to just work out are
Speaker 2: they telling you the truth?
Speaker 3: Are they deceiving me?
Speaker 2: It wouldn't take a lot, really, just to learn a
Speaker 2: little bit more about that. And I think the other thing,
Speaker 2: I like you, I do not do a law enforcement job.
Speaker 2: So much respect for people that put themselves out there
Speaker 2: every single day doing that. But I think these two
Speaker 2: guys that went to the porch could have spent a
Speaker 2: little bit more time listening and a little bit less
Speaker 2: time talking to call it Colin and call as well,
Speaker 2: because I felt like they were trying to build a
Speaker 2: rapport rather than sitting back a bit and just trying
Speaker 2: to listen to what it is that they were saying.
Speaker 1: Agreed, So what comes next for you in this statement?
Speaker 2: Well, what kind of baffles me about this, Cheryl is
Speaker 2: the next question is still about discord. It's when was
Speaker 2: the last time you used it? And he says like
Speaker 2: a few months ago. And then I think his dad
Speaker 2: says to him, was it at Traditions which is where
Speaker 2: they used to live, or was it here? And he says, no,
Speaker 2: it was at Traditions. Because the discord account that I had,
Speaker 2: I have deleted it before. Because the Discord account that
Speaker 2: I had had, I deleted it before.
Speaker 3: So that's not a sentence. It makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2: And again, when we're talking about how hard it is
Speaker 2: to lie when you don't have authentic experience, turning you know,
Speaker 2: something you have experienced into words is quite easy. And
Speaker 2: when you are relaying something that you have experienced, your
Speaker 2: words will flow and they will sound natural, and they
Speaker 2: will come to you. You know, what you saw, what
Speaker 2: you did, what you experienced. When you have to make
Speaker 2: something up and you haven't experienced it, it's a completely
Speaker 2: different process in inventing the words in your brain and
Speaker 2: then sending those words down to your mouth to be said.
Speaker 2: So when he says, because in that discord account that
Speaker 2: I had, I have deleted it before, it just doesn't
Speaker 2: make any sense. Again, you know, at the very least,
Speaker 2: this is someone very nervous. But also it's just not
Speaker 2: adding up and it's just not flowing. And again I'm
Speaker 2: not saying when someone talks and it doesn't flow, they
Speaker 2: are lying to you. What I am saying is they
Speaker 2: could be. You know, it's an indicator that they could be. Now,
Speaker 2: what I don't get about any of this is that
Speaker 2: that's practically what the allegation was. At traditions they used
Speaker 2: to live, someone mentioned a school shooting on Discord, and
Speaker 2: so far he has been really dodgy about whether he
Speaker 2: made a reference to a school shooting or not. And
Speaker 2: he has said, I used to have discord where we
Speaker 2: used to live, so I e. Where the the ip
Speaker 2: IP address was traced to. But I've deleted it. Well,
Speaker 2: that again should be enough to go, yeah, there is
Speaker 2: something going on here, guys.
Speaker 1: Well for me, when he said I deleted it before,
Speaker 1: the next obvious question should have been before what Yes,
Speaker 1: what happened to make you delete it?
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly that.
Speaker 2: There's another part just later on where, to be fair,
Speaker 2: they do go and they ask the question again about have.
Speaker 3: You mentioned a school shooting?
Speaker 2: Although it's asking a bit of a wishy washy way,
Speaker 2: which is are you saying you didn't say anything like that?
Speaker 2: Which is minimizing's what the allegation is. And I think
Speaker 2: it would have been more helpful for them to state
Speaker 2: it again. Can I just be clear you didn't make
Speaker 2: any comment about a school shooting, but that's not what happened.
Speaker 2: They said, you didn't say anything like that, and coach
Speaker 2: reply is no, the only thing I have is TikTok
Speaker 2: and I just go there to watch videos, which doesn't
Speaker 2: answer the question. It does not answer the question. Instead
Speaker 2: of saying no, I've never mentioned school shooting online at all,
Speaker 2: he says, here's a social media act I've got. I
Speaker 2: watched videos on TikTok. So he's once more he's dodged
Speaker 2: and not being very firm on a denial of did
Speaker 2: he mention a school shooting online at some point?
Speaker 1: That's right, And the concern for me was he's explaining
Speaker 1: what he uses TikTok for, which is not necessary. If
Speaker 1: somebody says I have Facebook, you have Facebook. Correct, if
Speaker 1: you have TikTok, you have TikTok. But if you make
Speaker 1: a point of saying I only use it to watch videos,
Speaker 1: that tells me there may very well be a video
Speaker 1: out there of cold Yes.
Speaker 2: Also, to go to your point about before he's asked,
Speaker 2: have you heard anybody on discord when you were using
Speaker 2: it saying something like that, do you remember that? And
Speaker 2: he buys thinking time by asking a question back. But
Speaker 2: the question he asks is like at that time. So
Speaker 2: once again at that time, well what time, because the
Speaker 2: only time that's under discussion here is the time that
Speaker 2: someone made a reference to a school shooting online. So
Speaker 2: he's leaking here, and that's what I said. You know,
Speaker 2: the truth will leak out in your words because it's
Speaker 2: very hard to lie. He's leaking here that he knows
Speaker 2: the sensitive time. So from being told the police want
Speaker 2: to talk to you about something about school shooting on discord,
Speaker 2: he's come out. He's not been given any information by
Speaker 2: the police at all, but he knows exactly when it happened,
Speaker 2: and the fact he can't remember it and so on.
Speaker 3: He's really leaking.
Speaker 2: I am aware of this that you guys have come
Speaker 2: to talk to me about.
Speaker 3: He's thirteen.
Speaker 2: His thinking processes language isn't going to be massively sophisticated,
Speaker 2: which is actually useful in detecting deception in words. You know,
Speaker 2: we can tell when a five year old is lying
Speaker 2: to a straight away, can't we, because you know, it's
Speaker 2: so obvious. And as we grow older, we get more
Speaker 2: sophisticated and more sophisticated. But at thirteen, actually he's very
Speaker 2: unsophisticated in this, and he's leaking left right and center
Speaker 2: that he is aware, at the very least in his
Speaker 2: own words, he is aware of an event where a
Speaker 2: school shooting was mentioned. He hasn't said it was him,
Speaker 2: but he's very much aware of a school shooting being
Speaker 2: mentioned event just by looking at what he said, not
Speaker 2: even decoding and you know, looking at hidden meanings behind
Speaker 2: words or anything like that, but actually just paying attention
Speaker 2: to the words that he uses.
Speaker 1: That's an excellent point. That was an excellent grab right there.
Speaker 2: The other thing I think these guys should have noticed
Speaker 2: is that I'm not going to pull any punches here.
Speaker 2: Colin lie to them, and he therefore again and this
Speaker 2: is again, this is not just decoding special words or
Speaker 2: anything like that, but a couple of times he lied
Speaker 2: to them and then contradicted himself further on down in
Speaker 2: what he said, and that should put them on red
Speaker 2: alert again that you know someone is And then Colins lies.
Speaker 2: I'll talk you through one of them. That they are
Speaker 2: kind of feel like image management lies, you know, so
Speaker 2: trying to create a rosier picture of things than they were.
Speaker 2: But when they ask if they can speak to Cote,
Speaker 2: and Colin says, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely, another red
Speaker 2: flag word do watch out for that again, like never
Speaker 2: is not synonymous with no, Absolutely is not synonymous with yes,
Speaker 2: it's not doesn't quite mean the same thing as yes.
Speaker 2: But he says, yeah, yeah, absolutely, and then to prove
Speaker 2: that absolutely is a red flag word. I think he
Speaker 2: talks to them for another two minutes to delay going
Speaker 2: to get Colt and trying to do this image management job,
Speaker 2: and he talks about the trauma they had as separating
Speaker 2: as a family, but he says, since we've moved here,
Speaker 2: we've been good, like no problems, and then he goes
Speaker 2: to outline all the problems they've had at school, no
Speaker 2: less as we go, So he's actually lied. He said
Speaker 2: no problems, and there have been problems, and he tells
Speaker 2: them what the problems is. He'd, you know, I want
Speaker 2: to go easy on these law enforcement guys. But he
Speaker 2: mentions problems at school, and he's not even asked about
Speaker 2: how his call at school or does he have any
Speaker 2: problems at school. He volunteers that the Colt has problems
Speaker 2: at school, that he's been picked on, that he has
Speaker 2: to go to the school. He's been to the school
Speaker 2: multiple times. He says he's never away from there. He
Speaker 2: says we're on first name terms because I'm there that often.
Speaker 2: Trust me, you don't go to school a lot of
Speaker 2: your child as an angel in behaving and getting great grades.
Speaker 2: So there are obviously real problems here and Colin has
Speaker 2: lied about that as well, which is you know, he
Speaker 2: said everything's fine, no problems, and then he indicates lots
Speaker 2: of problems.
Speaker 1: That's right, he said, the child and bullied. He said
Speaker 1: that he goes up there all the time. He said
Speaker 1: I was just there three times, which you can get
Speaker 1: into that if you want to. And then my favorite
Speaker 1: is when you know he reiterates that the two younger
Speaker 1: siblings left and went with their mother, so it's almost
Speaker 1: like he was left behind by her.
Speaker 2: Well, it gets interesting around that because the police guys
Speaker 2: say to Colin. One of the first questions he is
Speaker 2: you have kids or anything, and Colin says, yeah, Colt
Speaker 2: great cult he's my older son, so I get the
Speaker 2: family split. But he doesn't say I've got three kids
Speaker 2: and one of them is here, so he only mentions
Speaker 2: one of those kids. So the police have said we're
Speaker 2: here to talk about a threat to shoot up the school,
Speaker 2: do you have kids?
Speaker 3: And he only mentions one kid. Well, why is that?
Speaker 2: Is that because that's the one kid that he's linking
Speaker 2: to a school shooting or a threat to shoot up
Speaker 2: the school. It's you know, the flags that indicators are
Speaker 2: just really really going off here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was pretty major that he knew why they
Speaker 1: were there.
Speaker 3: He had a real indication why they were there.
Speaker 2: He you know, I believe if you look at when
Speaker 2: I say, you can get the personality from someone. Colin
Speaker 2: is a very controlling personality. He uses phrases like now
Speaker 2: look at the very start of an answer, which is,
Speaker 2: you know, I am going to try and control you.
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you what's important. I'm going to
Speaker 2: tell you what it is that you need to know here.
Speaker 2: So I get the impression he's a very controlling person
Speaker 2: And again when he talks about going up to the school,
Speaker 2: he talks about going to the school to tell them
Speaker 2: how to handle his son, not that the school have
Speaker 2: called him in because there are behavioral issues with cold
Speaker 2: that he's addressed and they want to do it in
Speaker 2: a you know, collegiate between home and school sort of way. No,
Speaker 2: he's always says, in his words, he's going up there
Speaker 2: to tell them how to treat Colt and how to
Speaker 2: manage cope. So I get the impression this guy is
Speaker 2: a re controlling character.
Speaker 1: He does it to the officers there on his porch. Yes,
Speaker 1: he says, yeah, I'll go getting but look he's going
Speaker 1: to get red faced, he's going to be nervous and upset, y'all.
Speaker 1: Just you know, come at him like calmly. He's telling
Speaker 1: them how to go at his son, who they received
Speaker 1: information had made threats he was going to shoot up
Speaker 1: a school.
Speaker 2: Which is just again, he just has this controlling personality,
Speaker 2: you know, he really wants to set the scene for
Speaker 2: how this is. The other thing I noticed is that
Speaker 2: he asks several times. And another concept that's really important
Speaker 2: in statement analysis is the things that we repeat, or
Speaker 2: the concepts that we repeat are very important to us,
Speaker 2: and we can try and work out potentially why these
Speaker 2: things are important to us. He asks several times for
Speaker 2: the police to tell them what they find in the
Speaker 2: course of their investigations, which I've read a lot of
Speaker 2: books about serial killers, and that's how they operate. They like,
Speaker 2: to a lot of them, like to integrate themselves into
Speaker 2: the you know, stay close to the police investigation into
Speaker 2: the serial killer, so they can find out what is
Speaker 2: going on, and he does that several times. He doesn't
Speaker 2: say why he wants this information. He just says, Oh,
Speaker 2: just let us know what you find. And you know,
Speaker 2: have you got a card so you can I can
Speaker 2: contact you. And I think that was very telling as well.
Speaker 2: He definitely wanted to be very close to that that
Speaker 2: police investigation into.
Speaker 1: This in the beginning when he finally comes outside, because y'all,
Speaker 1: when he first opened the door, he wasn't wearing pants,
Speaker 1: so he said, he put some pants on and I'll
Speaker 1: be back. But when he comes back out, he tells
Speaker 1: them that he's part of a law enforcement family, like
Speaker 1: I have nothing but respect for you guys, like he's
Speaker 1: trying to bond. Then when he goes in and gets
Speaker 1: cold and he opens the door, he says to him, hey,
Speaker 1: these are good guys. Okay, first of all, you don't
Speaker 1: know they're good guys. You don't know whether or not
Speaker 1: they're here to arrest your son or to arrest both
Speaker 1: of you or harass you about something. But he, to me,
Speaker 1: is almost conning.
Speaker 2: Now Now, I would agree with you that he was
Speaker 2: trying to build report around law enforcement by saying, come,
Speaker 2: my family's in law enforcement. But what is really interesting
Speaker 2: there is he says, when he meets the officer that's
Speaker 2: called him out to this situation at his old house,
Speaker 2: he says, I can't think of the officer's name. Turns
Speaker 2: out nicest guy like ever. Now that turns out is interesting.
Speaker 2: There was it that has experience of law enforcement is
Speaker 2: he does not like any of them, or very many
Speaker 2: of them. And he finds it very interesting, very interesting
Speaker 2: that he's turned out this is a nice guy. We
Speaker 2: turned out as a surprise, don't we. You know, it's
Speaker 2: not like, oh, it turned out to be a great day,
Speaker 2: is you know? I wasn't expecting it to be a
Speaker 2: great day, but it's turned out to be a great day.
Speaker 2: I was expecting a law enforcement person to be the
Speaker 2: nicest person, a great guy, but he was. So there's
Speaker 2: a bit of a disdain there.
Speaker 1: The other thing, Jack, fuck, you're good. You are good, honey.
Speaker 2: The other thing in what was very interesting was when
Speaker 2: he was asked about guns in the house and he's asked,
Speaker 2: let me ask you this, do you have weapons in
Speaker 2: the house? And Colin's answer is I do, perfect honest answer,
Speaker 2: very short, very straightforward, just deals with the thing that
Speaker 2: you were asked, so there's an honest answer for you
Speaker 2: from someone. And I think what's really useful is even
Speaker 2: the worst criminals will answer some questions honestly, especially ones
Speaker 2: around what's your date of birth?
Speaker 3: How old are you? Where do you live?
Speaker 2: And they're great at just seeing how someone answers a
Speaker 2: question honestly, a question that you've got no need to
Speaker 2: lie about, And he says, I do very straightforward. He's
Speaker 2: then asked accessible to him by him they mean colt,
Speaker 2: and he says they are. I mean there's nothing loaded,
Speaker 2: but they are there. We actually we do a lot
Speaker 2: of shooting. We do a lot of deer hunting. He
Speaker 2: shot his first deer this year. You know, so I'm
Speaker 2: pretty much in shock to be honest with you. I'm
Speaker 2: a little paid off to be even really honest with you,
Speaker 2: if that's what was said.
Speaker 3: But so he's asked are the guns accessible to him?
Speaker 2: And he goes into this long story, this extra He's
Speaker 2: not been asked about what do you do with the guns?
Speaker 2: He's not being asked about where the ammunition is. But
Speaker 2: he tries to give this, Hey, you know, we're just
Speaker 2: a hunting and shooting type of family. So we're all
Speaker 2: normal around guns and there's no issues there whatsoever. But
Speaker 2: he's felt the need to offer this information as extra
Speaker 2: to the question, which was are these guns accessible to Colt?
Speaker 2: And I thought that was really interesting that he was.
Speaker 2: I think Colin really realized the danger that was happening here.
Speaker 2: He realized what could be going on, and I think
Speaker 2: that he is trying to downplay that to these police
Speaker 2: guys so that they don't dig much much deeper.
Speaker 1: Interesting, So did it blow your mind when you found
Speaker 1: out what Colin go cult for Christmas?
Speaker 2: What I try to do, I try not to read
Speaker 2: too much about cases that I analyze so that I
Speaker 2: don't get called pulled into tobias.
Speaker 3: But I have seen this and it's entirely, entirely consistent.
Speaker 2: With the words that are there. Calling is a big
Speaker 2: gun guy. He likes to think and likes to believe
Speaker 2: that this is all very wholesome and all very natural
Speaker 2: and part of life. But it's in his words that
Speaker 2: guns are important to him, and it's also belied in
Speaker 2: his words. He's trying to say that we only they're
Speaker 2: only there for hunting. He doesn't mention that the AMMO
Speaker 2: is locked away or anything like that at all. He
Speaker 2: says there's nothing loaded. Well, that doesn't really mean very much,
Speaker 2: does it. It just means that a gun is not loaded.
Speaker 2: The AMMO could be sitting right next to it. It could
Speaker 2: be loaded in five seconds. You know, there's nothing particularly
Speaker 2: safe there that was going on. So I think, I mean,
Speaker 2: it does blow my mind from that point of view.
Speaker 2: But on the other hand, from what I see from
Speaker 2: Colin's words and his behavior and the type of person
Speaker 2: he is, it doesn't much surprise me.
Speaker 1: And you know, when he's talking about the deer hunting
Speaker 1: and putting the blood on his face and all that,
Speaker 1: which is a tradition if you're a deer hunter and
Speaker 1: you get your first kill, they will do that. So
Speaker 1: I just want people listening to know that's something that
Speaker 1: is well accepted in that community. But he says of
Speaker 1: that day where Colt got his first kill was the
Speaker 1: greatest day ever.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes he does.
Speaker 2: And again, I think what we've really picked up here
Speaker 2: was what was very interesting about this video is I
Speaker 2: think with Colt we're learning about statement analysis in terms
Speaker 2: of truth and deception, and with Colin we're picking up
Speaker 2: a sense of who he is, what his characteristic is
Speaker 2: like what's important to him as well, and he cannot
Speaker 2: but help himself and say, yeah, this was the greatest
Speaker 2: day ever.
Speaker 1: Yep. And you know, even the two officers on scene
Speaker 1: when Colin first opened the door just wearing boxers and
Speaker 1: a shirt. When he shuts the door to go put
Speaker 1: pants on, they even say to each other, Hey, unless
Speaker 1: it's like three in the morning, I'm going to stop
Speaker 1: and put pants on before I come to the door.
Speaker 1: So they even acknowledge this guy a little unusual. But
Speaker 1: Colin is almost super cool, super calm, like, hey, I'm
Speaker 1: part of a law enforcement family, y'all are good guys.
Speaker 1: When he comes back out, he's got a drink and
Speaker 1: a can that he just opens. He gets a chair
Speaker 1: and sits in it. I mean he's not at all
Speaker 1: upset or worried. Is the position he's played.
Speaker 2: Yes, I am sure, because against it's very much like
Speaker 2: when I said Colt responds with a question to a
Speaker 2: question to buy himself thinking time. I think some of
Speaker 2: the things that were going on with Colin was to
Speaker 2: buy him self thinking time as well. It was just
Speaker 2: a bit more sophisticated than Colt's thirteen year old version
Speaker 2: of it, Like how long he disappeared just to put
Speaker 2: on a pair of pants. That was That was quite
Speaker 2: a long time, wasn't it. You know, I wonder what
Speaker 2: when you know that there was a movie. It would
Speaker 2: cut to him sort of leaning against the door inside
Speaker 2: the house, going come on, come on, come on, get
Speaker 2: yourself together, get yourself together. Yeah, and then the delaying
Speaker 2: as well, when they say can you get Colt and
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, but now listen what you've got to
Speaker 2: understand and he goes into a long, long speech, which
Speaker 2: is great actually because the longer someone talks, the more
Speaker 2: data points we have to work with in terms of
Speaker 2: what they are like and who they are. So I
Speaker 2: think he was buying himself a lot of thinking time.
Speaker 3: I mean, he was.
Speaker 2: Very very aware that this was very serious, and I
Speaker 2: think Colin was very aware it was highly likely the
Speaker 2: cult had made this threat of a school shooting.
Speaker 1: Well, I will say this, I don't know of one
Speaker 1: school shooter who's been able to keep it a secret.
Speaker 1: They tell people, they make drawings, they write about it,
Speaker 1: they post about it on social media, they start collecting guns,
Speaker 1: they start researching. I mean, any kid, especially thirteen fourteen,
Speaker 1: they're not going to be able to hide it. It's
Speaker 1: what they think about, it's what they've started to process
Speaker 1: how they're going to do something. Many times they make
Speaker 1: a hit list. Many times they have just this dossier
Speaker 1: of information about guns and other school shootings where they
Speaker 1: have researched Columbine for example, and this I think is
Speaker 1: a similar situation. He did post things on social media,
Speaker 1: he did tell people. There is one statement that I've
Speaker 1: read that his first period teacher send an email that
Speaker 1: very morning before second period even started, that he had
Speaker 1: made some statement, some comment about shooting up the school.
Speaker 1: So again, we have to take these things seriously. Even
Speaker 1: if you think that kid he's just angry, that kids
Speaker 1: just being bullied, the kids just trying to get attention.
Speaker 1: However you're excusing it, you need to take it seriously.
Speaker 1: If you're wrong in the best way, no problem. But
Speaker 1: if you're not, then things can really be violent super quick.
Speaker 2: I think that's such a wise point, Cheryl. I think
Speaker 2: that's what I really got the feeling of at the
Speaker 2: end here was that what calling and what Cole said
Speaker 2: really should have given these police guys pause for thought.
Speaker 2: And I don't know what the procedure would be, whether
Speaker 2: they could get him down to the police station to
Speaker 2: speak more formally.
Speaker 3: Even at the very least, they have.
Speaker 2: The information there that there are problems at school, So
Speaker 2: maybe go and talk to the school and maybe just
Speaker 2: tip off the school that this has happened. Can you
Speaker 2: keep an eye on him or something like that. But really,
Speaker 2: when the words that they used, there was indications that yes,
Speaker 2: cult had made a threat about shooting up a school,
Speaker 2: and that calling number one, guns were a large part
Speaker 2: of his life and part of his culture, and number
Speaker 2: two like he seemed to be aware as well that
Speaker 2: it was highly probable that cult had made this threat
Speaker 2: to shoot up the school.
Speaker 1: I mean, his dad even said in his statement that
Speaker 1: we talk about it. We talk about it all the time,
Speaker 1: and he listed school shooting. His dad was aware, now
Speaker 1: law enforcement was aware, his counselor was aware. They had
Speaker 1: to change schools because of issues. Again, it's not like
Speaker 1: there weren't sign after sign after signed that this child
Speaker 1: is having major issues that should have been addressed in
Speaker 1: a more aggressive manner in my opinion, But this is
Speaker 1: what I would like to ask of you, Jack Fox.
Speaker 1: I think you need to come back to zone and
Speaker 1: we need to have almost a little mini academy, to
Speaker 1: tell people about the liar's number, to tell people about
Speaker 1: the importance of order, to tell people about how statements
Speaker 1: should be balanced, and things like that, and where this
Speaker 1: could really be utilized, not just in law enforcement, but
Speaker 1: I think teachers and counselors and nurses. I think other
Speaker 1: people need to understand basic deception.
Speaker 3: That would be a pleasure, that would be a challenge
Speaker 3: and a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Fabulous. All right, well, sir, I just adore you and
Speaker 1: I appreciate you, and I think you've put a spotlight
Speaker 1: on statement analysis and anybody in law enforcement that could
Speaker 1: hear this episode and here you break down that statement
Speaker 1: the first two sentences, they should be reaching out for
Speaker 1: some training in some classes. So I appreciate you so
Speaker 1: much and we will be in touch.
Speaker 2: I look forward to it. Thank you very much for
Speaker 2: having me.
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl, Thank you so much, and y'all, I'm going
Speaker 1: to end Zone seven the way that I always do
Speaker 1: with a quote. Order is important, often revealing priority. Peter Hyatt,
Speaker 1: I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone seven.