1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: for tuning in. This is part two of the Ridiculous 4 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: History of Ottoman Empire. Harems and uh, this is the 5 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: part where we do a disclaimer. Our our go to 6 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,199 Speaker 1: Guy Max the Sultan. Williams, our super producer, has returned 7 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: from Adventures Abroad. You are here, I'm Ben Bowling, you're 8 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Nold Brown kis I Yeah, we've got We've got a 9 00:00:55,720 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: disclaimer here because this episode in particular talks about out 10 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: some very disturbing things that were normalized practices, but they 11 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: are part of history and should not be forgotten. 12 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: And I think we actually offer a couple of warnings 13 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 2: within the episode itself, So if this is not something 14 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 2: you want to hear about, you should have every opportunity 15 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 2: to hit that thirty second. I don't think we talk 16 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 2: about it for more than you know, to two or 17 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: three minutes. Yeah, it is about genital mutilation. 18 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: Yeah there, just to put it out there, and then 19 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: also you got to promise here as the research associate 20 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,559 Speaker 1: for this episode, I think I did an okay job 21 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: not just talking at length about my dumb little novel. 22 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: Are you kidding? I think you mentioned it once and 23 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 3: then you like walked it back. But I'm excited. 24 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: I read the first couple of paragraphs at least, I mean, 25 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: and I thought it was beautifully written. Frankly, I got 26 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 2: to be honest that when I was editing part one 27 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: of this series, I was like, Okay, where's the novel? 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 3: And you didn't talk about the novel? 29 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: And I was, well, but you linked to it in 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: the dock and did he talk about it at some 31 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 2: point a little bit us. It's really good, Ben, that's 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: really poetically written. And it was like you're describing a 33 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: sort of era that's like this, but you're you've got 34 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: new things that are in there, like new creatures and 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 2: new terms, and you're it's It made me think of 36 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: like Anthony Burgess and clockwork orians. The way you were 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: immediately creating this cool lexicon. I thought it was really smart. 38 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:24,800 Speaker 2: I'm excited to read more. 39 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: Gosh, that makes my day. No, seriously, thank you, man. 40 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: That might be the nicest thing you've ever said to me. 41 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: Well, I've got more where that came from. Let's jump 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: right in, folks. 43 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: And there's also a very why. One thing people sometimes 44 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: I think forget about the Ottoman Empire is that there 45 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: was a lot of diversity because it was a big operation, 46 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 1: and so the Harem is a microcosm of that. The 47 00:02:55,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: Harem has people drawn from the Caucus, from Africa, the Balkans, 48 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: so there are a lot of unique cultures coming into 49 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: mixing together here. And the Sultan did have legal wives, 50 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: but he wasn't always romantically interested in them. The concubines 51 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: the mistresses might just be there for romance and reproduction. 52 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: He might have wives that he barely talks to because 53 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 1: they're just there to cement and alliance. They're like paperwork 54 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 1: for him, which sounds you speaking to sounding callous and 55 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 1: gold And you know, in many cases the wives were 56 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: probably not super jazzed to hang with the sultan either. 57 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: They just went to live in a really nice cage. 58 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 3: And getting back to the machinations. 59 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: Within the machinations, we know the politics of game of 60 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: thronesy type stuff involves a male air often, you know, 61 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: that is sort of the name of the game. And 62 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: we also know that for the longest time in history, 63 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 2: you know, let's think of old Henry the Eighth right, 64 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 2: the idea of like, if you couldn't produce a male 65 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: air for me, then you were of no use to 66 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: me and I will have you be headed. But it 67 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: turned out that it was the male contribution to that 68 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: union that is actually what generated the male air. So 69 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,280 Speaker 2: it is Henry's fault the whole time. But this all, 70 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 2: this emphasis placed on generating a male air. You know, 71 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 2: people have lost their lives over this for generations without 72 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: because of this lack. 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 3: Of understanding behind the science of it. 74 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 2: It's all it's very looking back on it with hindsight 75 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: in that perspective, it looks just it seems utterly ridiculous. 76 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. 77 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: Sorry to that point though, the mothers often would you know, 78 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 2: be a little more deferential to their own sons because 79 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: they were kind of grooming them to maybe be the 80 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: next sultan. Right, so there could be more political maneuvers 81 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: within maneuvers. 82 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: Right, I'm gonna tell you man, there's some Sith lord 83 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: aspects to it, right, like, oh yeah, I'm raising you 84 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: is my apprentice together the empire so far beneath the 85 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: control of whatever we're saying instead of Sith exact. So 86 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: this also we also know look slavery is terrible. There 87 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: are as a function of the expanding human population, which 88 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 1: has been going like gangbusters for a while. They're more 89 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: slaves alive now than at any other single point of history. 90 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: But and check out our stuff. They want you new 91 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: episodes on this. But slavery is not always the same 92 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: type of social mechanism. It's always horrible, but it differs 93 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: depending on geography and time. So in the Ottoman Empire, 94 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 1: slavery is kind of complicated. 95 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 3: Like the. 96 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: Janissaries, they're this elite fighting squad and they were originally 97 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: formed through slavery. The Ottoman Empire would go around and 98 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: the Balkans and other Christian areas and they would force 99 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: people to give up their children, their Christian children. They 100 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: would make those kids who are slaves, these child slaves, 101 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: convert to Islam and then be drafted into this slave 102 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: army of the. 103 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 2: Otto child soldiers, right, I mean, that's absolutely a thing 104 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 2: we've seen in more recent history too, like in parts 105 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: of Africa. 106 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 3: Right. 107 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 2: Like there was a film I believe called the Oh gosh, 108 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 2: it was Kerrie Fukunaga's first film, Beasts of No Nation. 109 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: I want to say it was all about child soldiers 110 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 2: in all rwandas. I can't exactly remember the details, but 111 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: it is painfully part of very recent history. If not, 112 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 2: I mean certainly likely to still be going on in 113 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: some parts of the worlds. 114 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, very much. Here's what happened in the Janisaries, though, 115 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: just like the Templars, they became a powerful political force 116 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: all their own. In fact, they became the first modern 117 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: standing army in all of Europe. So eventually the Janis series, 118 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: despite being slaves, were more powerful than members of the public. 119 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: And then slaves pressed into service at the Harem also 120 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: did have as we were talking about this the entirety 121 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: of this episode, they had this limited agency to pursue 122 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: power that would not be accessible to the majority of 123 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: the empire. And usually when you go to in a 124 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: weird way, man, these poor kids who had to go 125 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: to the Harem were kind of going to private school. 126 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: They learned sport, behavior, mathematics, dancing, literacy that they would 127 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: they would may not have been taught. 128 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: That's why it's also complicated because on the one hand, yes, 129 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: you cannot leave. It's like the Hotel California, you know, 130 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 2: time vibes, but like you, you're getting the best of 131 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: the best in terms of education, in terms of access 132 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 2: to culture, in terms of access to political power. 133 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 3: You know, like, you really are in. 134 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: This very isolated yet privileged position, but yet can we 135 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 2: really call it privileged if you were forced into it? 136 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 2: But yet compared to the alternative of what life outside 137 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: of those walls might have been like, and the survival 138 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 2: rates and the potential of starvation or whatever, you know, 139 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 2: all real things to weigh when thinking about what was 140 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 2: best for the individual, Right, I don't know. 141 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this well said. I would say the 142 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: key thing is, yeah, one person might prefer the safe, 143 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: secluded existence. One person might prefer the normal path of 144 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: public life. But the key is they need to be 145 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: given a choice to do so, you know what I mean, 146 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: not just walked into a place when there's cold, And 147 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,319 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the most difficult things. Also, look, 148 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: if you were good at the lessons you were being taught, 149 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: you might not end you might technically be a concubine, 150 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: or you might just end up being a common servant, 151 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: and they might say, hey, the Sultan doesn't seem romantically 152 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 1: interested in you, but you were super good at accounting. 153 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: Do you want to manage some of the money for 154 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: the harem, and then people would jump at that because 155 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: now it's. 156 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: A civil position, that's right, Yeah, which protected you know, 157 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 2: you got yourself a government job at this point. I mean, 158 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 2: god knows that's going ahead in the future, but we 159 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 2: know in the past that comes with some protections. 160 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 1: So what we're saying is, again, not every woman in 161 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: the harem interacted with the sultan at all as a 162 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: matter of fact, because you know, it's one guy. Again, 163 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: there's so many people in the harem. If he took 164 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: someone to bed, once they became newly elevated, they technically 165 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: became a more official part of the household and they 166 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 1: got invited to live in the good part of the harem, 167 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 1: like harem premium. 168 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 3: Downstairs type situation. 169 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, just so, And that's where you live with the 170 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: sultan's wives and relatives. And this is where we see 171 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: some of the mean girl stuff coming in or some 172 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: of the acrimonious behavior, because the wives and the relatives 173 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: are often not thrilled about the new girl moving. 174 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: In, but in the presence of the sultan, they got 175 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 2: to put on a happy face. But when the Sultan's 176 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: not around, there might be some pretty gnarly mean girl 177 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: type sniping and bullying and burn book. 178 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 4: Type and sometimes people not even ye point, sorry I'm 179 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 4: talking about the burn book, but you know, you go 180 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 4: as far as like literal murder of you know, your 181 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 4: sexual or political or just someone who you perceive is 182 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 4: getting more of the Sultan's attention than you rival, right, right. 183 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: And then also you know, it's an ugly thing to acknowledge. 184 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 1: But while we don't have a specific example here, it 185 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: is statistically inevitable that some of these people having their 186 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 1: agency removed may have chosen to take their own lives. 187 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: And it's just it's a reality of the terrible things 188 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: that can happen when people are forced into an unnatural 189 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 1: life that they did not agree to live. And this, okay, 190 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: so look we see there are a lot of moving parts. 191 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 1: And obviously we are not members of the Ottoman Empire. 192 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, sleeping. 193 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 3: Dog Ben, you're secretly a member of the. 194 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: Okay, on record, you notice how I never you never 195 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: see Max and the Sultan in the same place. 196 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 3: Max does have very sultanly vibes. 197 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: He's always telling me that. 198 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: Sweeping his hands you know here for this one. 199 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: Uh So we are also not native Turkish speakers, So 200 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: apologies in advance for any any mispronunciations here, but no, 201 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 1: we thought would be cool right to talk about some 202 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: of the positions you could attain in the in the Harem, 203 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: so Odalisk is our starting point, right for a lot 204 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: of people that you want to become what's called the 205 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: ghost Day the Favorite. But it's like playing King of 206 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 1: the Hill because the ghost Day one year might not 207 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 1: be the Ghost Day the next year. 208 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: Of course, Yeah yeah, I mean this isn't the same 209 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: eras it's more of a I think Victorian England kind 210 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,080 Speaker 2: of version of this type of political maneuvering. But there's 211 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: a really excellent Yugoslanthemus film called The Favorite that is 212 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 2: just an excellent example of this type of court intrigue 213 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,839 Speaker 2: and the types of things that happen when you have rivals, 214 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 2: and its very much is a harem type situation. But 215 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 2: it's an absolutely remarkable, exciting, sexy, funny, fucked up film 216 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 2: and I highly recommend anybody checking it out if this 217 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: type of thing is of interest to you. Next, we 218 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 2: have the Ikbal or the Fortunate, which is a favorite 219 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: concubine that gives birth to that covened male air. Yeah. 220 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: Now they might be on the way to run in 221 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: things and then via the male air right, via the 222 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: male air, yes, like the regents. 223 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 4: Right. 224 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: So then there's a group these you could maybe call 225 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: these the mean girls, the Cadin, the favorite women of 226 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: the Sultan. They have privileges like specific servants, specific units 227 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: that only work for them. They have their own separate apartments. 228 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: They are in terms of privilege, they're very close to wives. 229 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: There's still a notch down, but they're on the way. 230 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: And of course if they give birth to a male air, 231 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: it's game on. One of the best examples of a 232 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,719 Speaker 1: slave girl who goes from the position of odalisk to 233 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: running stuff is a Ukrainian slave girl named rock Salana. 234 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: She overcame great odds. People tried to kill her repeatedly, 235 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: but she ultimately ascended to the position of the most 236 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: powerful empress of the Ottoman Empire. 237 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: It was possible famously committed to song by the excellent 238 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: eighties post punk band The Police. Yeah read the lyrics 239 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: and their hit rock Soalana you don't have to put 240 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 2: on the red light. 241 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. She was the chief consort of Ottoman Sultan Suliman 242 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: the Magnificent. She remains one of the most powerful, powerful 243 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: female political figures in the entire history of the Ottoman Empire. 244 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 3: Was she ascend through the harem? Yeah? 245 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: She started as totally yeah, and she became She is 246 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: perhaps the most iconic member of that period of time. 247 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: We described the reign of women the salt to day 248 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: to way. 249 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 3: There you go call back and yeah, I'm sorry, I 250 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 3: didn't mean to interrupt. I just the idea of them 251 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 3: becoming a literal empress. 252 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, that that is sort of the end goal of 253 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,840 Speaker 2: this type of political climbing, of this maneuver. This is 254 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: sort of like the best possible outcome. And I'm sorry, 255 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 2: I can't. I can't help but think that maybe the 256 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: police were aware of this figure in Rosan Rock Salana. 257 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: I don't know. 258 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: Maybe not sting contains multitudes. It's a great song, It stuck. 259 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 2: It really is a killer song. I love the way 260 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: the downbeat or the drum. It's like a reggae beat 261 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 2: where the kick drum is where the snare would normally fall. 262 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: Sorry not to get nerdy about it, but it's if 263 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: you really listen to it. For the verses, it's kind 264 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: of hard to count. It's a little bit of a 265 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 2: tricky rhythmic kind of polyrhythmic thing. 266 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: And there's a I don't know, there's some poetry to 267 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: its absolute body line. 268 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 3: What's ben? What's the police drummer's name? 269 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: Stuart Copeland's right, Yeah, Sun excellent Pobaly rhythmic genius, that 270 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: guy love him. 271 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: And speaking of geniuses, if you become an impress, a 272 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: favored wife, then your next step what do you do 273 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: after that? 274 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 3: Right? 275 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: Where do you go? Now? 276 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 3: Where do you go? Yeah? 277 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: You become the valid or valid sultan? 278 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 3: Uh. 279 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: This is usually the wife or concubine of the sultan's 280 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: father who has risen to an exalted position in the Harem. 281 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: And everything is so secret. This lady is plugged it. 282 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: She's basically the director of the cia for the Harem. 283 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: She knows everything that happens, She green lights everything. Nothing 284 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: moves without her knowledge or permission. And if you are 285 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 1: a young slave girl brought into the harem, you immediately 286 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: need to kiss this woman's butt because you might die. 287 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 2: Is that almost like the Master of Whispers in the 288 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: Game of Thrones? 289 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: Yeah? 290 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, But again, now we're gonna we're gonna get into 291 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: what that character was as well, which is sort of 292 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 2: a combination of two of these things. 293 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: Wait, virus. That's his name, right, Yeah, yeah, of course 294 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 1: his little birds. 295 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 3: But he was a unit. 296 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: I don't think that's his name. I'm thinking I've got 297 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:12,479 Speaker 1: the role now, you know. Yeah, that was it. 298 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 3: That's where that was his name of the bald guy. 299 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I see it. 300 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 3: It's a Varis. 301 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: It's Varius. Sorry, George, George r R. Martin, don't r. 302 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: R stand for by the way, I've always wondered and 303 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: never cared enough to look it up. 304 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I'm gonna keep not knowing. I 305 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 3: want to go on like the mystery. Also, George, don't 306 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 3: don't look it up and hack it. I see you 307 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 3: thinking about it. Don't look it up better than not know. 308 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: George, don't use me as an excuse to stop writing 309 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: Winds of Winter. Man. I'm sorry, it's happening. I'm keeping the. 310 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 3: Faith some pages. We know it exists, at least in part. 311 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 3: You know, we'll see what happens. 312 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: I've had some very strident conversations with their Pallor and 313 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,159 Speaker 1: Vogelbaum about this, which are maybe not fit for the 314 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: air on a family show. 315 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: But she's a little bit of a George hater, isn't 316 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: she No, she doesn't like Stephen Kane that sense. That's right, 317 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 2: which is fair at times, you know, but unfair at 318 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: other times. 319 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: I guess, man, I've had some nice interactions with him 320 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,600 Speaker 1: on Twitter. He's super into dad jokes. 321 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 3: Now, of course he is. 322 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 2: He's the ultimate dad now that it was this ever 323 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 2: since he quit Ben's drinking and cocaine, I think he 324 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: became a little bit more of a dad like human. 325 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: Probably this uh, this type of sultan, this this ultimate 326 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: position of ascension. This lady will play a heavy role 327 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: in her son's decisions as a member of the imperial court, 328 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: and she kind of functions like a silent politician or diplomat, 329 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: as you said, Master whispers. There is proof, historical proof 330 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: that in the court of the Ottoman Empire there was 331 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,159 Speaker 1: a window that the sultan would sit by, and the 332 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: women of the harem would sit behind the window and 333 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: they would listen to the discussions being made in court. 334 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: And there are instances where the women would whisper to 335 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: the sultan and say, oh, no, that's a bad move, Nah, 336 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: don't ooh. 337 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 3: I like them they're good. 338 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 2: Well, as we know in business and in politics and 339 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 2: in whatever creativity, a lot of times just about being 340 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: in the room and being cool, being a cool hang, 341 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 2: you know, and being able to like express an opinion 342 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 2: without coming off as being like trying too hard, you know, 343 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,360 Speaker 2: and like nobody likes to try hard. Nobody likes someone 344 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 2: that's clearly jockeying to improve their lot in life. But 345 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: if you're around and you're holding space with like some 346 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: powerful people, and you become, you know, part of the crew, 347 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 2: and you say something that could well lead to serious 348 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 2: world shattering changes, you know. 349 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you see this in people's jobs today. One 350 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,479 Speaker 1: of the biggest most important things is just being in 351 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:00,120 Speaker 1: the room. 352 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 2: Yes, and not paying a just being like I said, 353 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,919 Speaker 2: being a good hang, you know. 354 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: And from the viewpoint of western eyes, we see there's 355 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: this orientalism, there's this other exoticism of the women in 356 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: the Harem. But they were actually in many cases they 357 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: were more powerful and influential than the guys who were 358 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,760 Speaker 1: writing about them in such condescending ways. 359 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 3: That's maybe part of it too. 360 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: There might have been a little bit of sour grapes, 361 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 2: you know, on the part of the the curators of history. 362 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 2: But again we say that the power aspect, the access 363 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 2: to education, the access to all the finest of things. 364 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, it's so complicated 365 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 2: because it is still all the product of a decision 366 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:51,320 Speaker 2: that has been removed from somebody. Speaking of removing things, right, people, 367 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: I think it's time to talk about units. 368 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 1: Here is our second disclaimer, folks, this this is an 369 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: unpleasant thing. We've been talking about agency and choice. Eunuchs 370 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 1: are not not given choice or agency over what happens 371 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: to them, often at a very young age. Let's put 372 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: it this way. Imagine you are the sultan. You're hoarding 373 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: your wives, some of whom you never talk to. You're 374 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,400 Speaker 1: holding your concubine, some of whom you've never even met, 375 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: and servants. You're holding it the way smou hoards gold 376 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: spout the dragon. You got one big issue. You're thinking 377 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: to these people as your property because you're you know, 378 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: you're running a slave empire. And so you say, I 379 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: don't want a bunch of I need security, but I 380 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 1: can't have a bunch of random dudes around my ladies. 381 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 2: So yeah, you know, and women can occupy the administrative 382 00:21:55,760 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: roles sure and keep things, you know, running smoothly. On 383 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 2: the ground, but they don't possess the you know, the 384 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: masculine type properties that we need to create the secure situation. 385 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,880 Speaker 3: What if there were a third thing? Now, what if 386 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 3: we could create a third thing? 387 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: What if we can loophole this Because a lot of 388 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:22,959 Speaker 1: a lot of times, powerful people in theocracies spend a 389 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: great deal of energy figuring out loopholes, so they can 390 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: still say they're obeying the rules of their belief system, 391 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: but in a way that benefits them. So in the 392 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire, are then right, they just come, I love it. 393 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: I'm so into it in particular as you know. But 394 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: the so in the Ottoman Empire, the Sultan finds himself, 395 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: like he said, in a bit of pickle, and he says, 396 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: I also Islam also forbids me from my perspective of 397 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: having dudes around my female chattel and my wives. So 398 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: what if there's a third way? The third way? The 399 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: eunuchs slaves in charge charge of a lot of aspects 400 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: of the harem. They watch and they serve the female 401 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: members of the harem. 402 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 3: They are. 403 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: They're called eunuchs because they are born male, but they 404 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: are mutilated to varying degrees that would remove either their 405 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: ability to reproduce or their ability to engage in penetrative sex. 406 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there were different varieties of eunuch as well. 407 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: And the one term that I learned from that Escopus 408 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 2: article is sandali or clean shaven, which is this It 409 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: actually can be used to refer to also shaving of 410 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,680 Speaker 2: I believe, hair on genitals, but in this case it's 411 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: referred to a clean razor cut of the sex organ, 412 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 2: the male sex organ, oftentimes with some sort of wooden 413 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 2: rod that's sort of stuck in up to a point 414 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 2: to guide where the cut happens, you know, because it's 415 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: barbaric and then charterized with boiling oil, and many did 416 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: not survive right this this you know, we know medical 417 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 2: science is not there wasn't exactly sterilized environments. You know, 418 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 2: this could very well lead to a horrific infection that 419 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: would would take the lives of those. 420 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: You hear it described by Varus in Game of Thrones. 421 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 1: There's another type would be the removal of the scrotum. 422 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: But still these are all very very terrible things because 423 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: they were meant and it's just an enormous waste too, 424 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,479 Speaker 1: because it was all meant to leverage a what the 425 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: Sultan saw as a religious loophole. So now after this 426 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: traumatic mutilation and attack, these individuals, in the Sultan's eyes, 427 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: you're not considered men. But they're half man and half woman, 428 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 1: so they can enter the hair and they won't be 429 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: you know, there won't be a fox and the. 430 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 3: Right. 431 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 2: And we may have mentioned this, but just to double 432 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: down real quick, this often happens when they're before puberty. 433 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. 434 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,679 Speaker 2: Reading about this, just in more graphic detail than we 435 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: are going into here to hopefully spare you of, that 436 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 2: really makes me kind of clinch up in unpleasant ways. 437 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:29,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's it's one of the worst, most unimaginable, 438 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: abhorrent forms of child abuse, right on top of the 439 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: on top of the slavery. 440 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 2: And for the most weird form of sexual assault too 441 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,120 Speaker 2: if you think about it. But it's one that not 442 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 2: only would stick with you psychologically for the rest of 443 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 2: your life, but actually physically, you know. 444 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: I mean, and these these kids, when this stuff happens 445 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: to them, they're already having a terrible time in life 446 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: because there they've often been captured and stolen from their 447 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: homes in a busy throughout the African continent, in the 448 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:08,159 Speaker 1: jungles of Sudan. In Egypt, they're attacked or assaulted or 449 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: castrated during this trip and sold in the Mediterranean slave markets. 450 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: And from all of this, they too can have a 451 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: path to power in Harem, which is just mind boggling. 452 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: It breaks our social expectations in the West because they 453 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: serve as trusted messengers. They are, you know, like the 454 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: the higher ranking eunuchs, especially the position of the kissler Aga, 455 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: the head of the eunuchs. 456 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 2: The chief White Unuch, I believe is another maybe a 457 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: translated version, but they have. 458 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: The two, the white Unich and the Black Unich. 459 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 3: That's right. 460 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: But we had referred earlier to the idea of that 461 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: one particular woman whose name. 462 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 3: Escapes me, rock I think it was maybe it was. 463 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 2: There was another one that you said was that it 464 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 2: was the mother maybe who became the head of the 465 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 2: valid correct. 466 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 3: So that is sort of what the chief. 467 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 2: White Unich was as well, this idea of the being 468 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: in charge of the palace bureaucracy and also being in 469 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: charge of the Palace School, which was a school specifically 470 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 2: for white Unis, and also just being an information. 471 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 3: Filter. 472 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: You know, you are a absolute gatekeeper, being able to 473 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, guide this information and knowing 474 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 2: everything about everyone. 475 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the kissler Aga is the Black Unich. The 476 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 1: copy aga is sometimes called the Chief White Unich. So 477 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: think of it as like, like you said, the head 478 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: of administrative that would be our White Unich and kind 479 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,840 Speaker 1: of the head of security that would be our Black Union. 480 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: Got it, And you know, they have this amazing level 481 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: of power. They can spider along, they know how to 482 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 1: play with play the parkour buacracy. So you if you 483 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: are a new child enslaved and brought to the Harem, 484 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: you have to kiss their butts too, And if they 485 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: don't like each other, you've got to be very careful 486 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 1: because either one of them could also have you killed. 487 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 3: It's it's crazy, Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's wild boy. 488 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 2: We've really spun quite the yarn here that story. It's 489 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 2: it's it's all true. And we've mentioned the fact that 490 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 2: there is some complexity to the idea of like was 491 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: it better in the Harem or outside of the air, 492 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 2: And we kind of have an interesting answer to that 493 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 2: when the Ottoman Empire fell, right, yeah, yeah. 494 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: Because contemporary sources do seem to indicate that the mystery, 495 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: the purposeful mystery and secrecy of the Harem led to 496 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: a lot of embellishment, led to a lot of tall 497 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: tales because in the absences, in the absence of transparency, 498 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: speculation thrives. And when, like you say, when the Ottoman 499 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: Empire fell in nineteen oh nine. 500 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: Much more recently than I would have thought, Yeah, yeah, 501 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: for the first time, the gates of the Harem were 502 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 2: opened to the world. 503 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: Women were set free. They could go back to their families, 504 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: their relatives, their fathers and brothers, et cetera. And interestingly enough, 505 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: according to proven historical records, there were members of the Harem. 506 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: There were women who did not want to go back 507 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,239 Speaker 1: outside of the cage because they said, you know, I 508 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 1: was poor before, you know, why do I want to 509 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: go back there. It's like that guy who wants to 510 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: go back in the matrix. 511 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: Under and you can there are two ways of looking 512 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: at that. One is that, sure, being rich maybe is 513 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 2: better than being poor, you know, objectively, if you're just 514 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 2: looking at pure mathematics. 515 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 3: But you could also look. 516 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 2: At it as a form of indoctrination and like Cultwood 517 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 2: and Dockheims. Yeah, so I just I feel like it's well, 518 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 2: it is an an answer to the question of was 519 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 2: it now Really it's not was it better? You know, 520 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,040 Speaker 2: because we don't really know exactly. I'm sure there were 521 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 2: abusive practices, you know that. It's depicted in this like 522 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 2: positive light in many and many accounts. But it's also 523 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's a darkness to the whole affair. 524 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 1: After nineteen twenty six, the Turkish Republic, the successor of 525 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: the Ottoman Empire, made polygamy illegal, and so the seclusion 526 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: of women became less popular. And obviously the current ruler 527 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: of Turkey or to God, does not have to our knowledge, 528 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: an opulent empire or an opulent harem. You know who 529 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,719 Speaker 1: I think might have a crazy harem hidden away somewhere. 530 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin. He just seems like the type of. 531 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 2: He does he does, and he seems like the type 532 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: that wouldn't want to share it with anybody. 533 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: And thank you for taking this wild ride with us, folks. Uh, 534 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: This again is endlessly fascinating period of history. No, I 535 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: think there may be some more Automan Empire episodes in 536 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: the future. What do you say we get out of 537 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: the harem and get to some of the other stuff. 538 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 3: I think, man, so to those episodes. 539 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: So we've gotta give Yeah, we've got a big, big 540 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: thanks of course, uh to our to our producer, mister 541 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: Max Williams, and immediately to our special guest producer, Ben 542 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: the Sleeping Dog Hacket. I'm curious, is give, asked Bet? Ben? 543 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: Can you tell us how you got that that moniker? 544 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, well it's it's kind of funny. It's it's 545 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 5: it's this thing. It's this record I'm working on. I 546 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 5: made a bunch of music while that's like real quiet, 547 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 5: because my I made it while my dog was sleeping. 548 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 1: I didn't want to wake him up. 549 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 5: That's how I made an album of songs called Songs 550 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 5: for Sleeping Dogs and so's I can't wait to hear it. 551 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, save thanks also, of course to Christopher Hasiotis. Thanks 552 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: to A. J. Bahamas Jacobs who reached out to us. 553 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: We'll just see that photo Brandy took out that it 554 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 1: was good. 555 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, super good. 556 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great, And I'm actually New York City bound 557 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: just after this episode, so I'm gonna try my head 558 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 2: up mister Bahamas as well. Huge shout to Jonathan Strickland 559 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 2: the quizt. 560 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: A happy birthday, Jonathan No Joe, Yeah, happy late days. Happy, 561 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: but you know how we are with holidays on this show, 562 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 1: so happy belated birthday. 563 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 3: Better better late than never. But also I. 564 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: Think Strict should be making an appearance on this show 565 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 2: or the very least stuff that I want you to 566 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: know in the very near future. But he's been having 567 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff going on his plate, so we've 568 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 2: been trying to not inundate him. But we are gonna 569 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: have to get him back very very soon. 570 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: Let's just say it for the people fell ridiculous historians. 571 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: The Quistors new writer is insane, right, And I'm like, 572 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: you are not the Sultan of podcasts. 573 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: Making us get a bigger clock, which we thought was 574 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: already like so much funny could possibly Yeah, I mean 575 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: it's it's absurd. 576 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: If we didn't buy that stupid clock, we would be 577 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: a video podcast. 578 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 3: We're working towards the larger clock. 579 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 2: We're saving up forever, but once we it's worth it 580 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: to us. Though, guys, it's worth to us to get 581 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:37,959 Speaker 2: the h though, is so much more chill with his rider. 582 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: All he wants is like a bagel, a good bagel 583 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: like spread. 584 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 3: You know, we can get a little sneering grass. 585 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, Big big Things. Also, of course, do Eves 586 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: Jeffcoat on theme. Check out the podcast Big Big Things 587 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: to Chris Vrassiotis gave Lucier and Big Big Thanks to 588 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: Noel Barcelona. 589 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 3: Brow Thanks Ben Ben Bowling. Bowling nailed it. We'll see 590 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 3: you next time, folks. 591 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 592 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows