1 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: Almost twenty years before the enhanced Games were set to 2 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: take place, and hence founder Aaron Desuza was a law 3 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,079 Speaker 1: student at Oxford University. His first week of school, the 4 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: billionaire Peter tele visited Oxford for a guest lecture. Yes 5 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: that Peter Teal, who founded PayPal, was one of the 6 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: first investors in Facebook and is now one of Donald 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: Trump's biggest donors. This is a story of how they 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: first met. Erin, the law student was showing Tale around 9 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: campus when they got to talking. 10 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 2: And I asked him, what's the biggest problem that you face? 11 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: This story Erin's telling on a different podcast these days. 12 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: He's proud to share it. At the time though, it 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: was a huge secret, and he. 14 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 2: Said, you know this website Gawker, the writting all this 15 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 2: horrible stuff about me, and I don't know what to 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 2: do about it. 17 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: Okay, for context, Goker, remember Gaker half gossip site, half 18 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: news and just so so popular back in the early odds. 19 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, Gawker added Peter til for 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: being quote totally gay, and Till understandably wasn't happy about it, 21 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: but he didn't think there was much he could do. 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 3: You know, my initial My initial view was that what 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 3: you were supposed to do was you were supposed to 24 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 3: take your beatings, crouch down, go into a fetal position, 25 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: and then hope they moved on to somebody else. 26 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: This is Teal. At a National Press Club event in 27 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,680 Speaker 3: One of my friends convinced me that that if if 29 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: Gawker could get away with the sort of sociopathic repeat 30 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: behavior over and over, you know, they would continue to 31 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 3: ruin lives one after another. And so, you know, I 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 3: was convinced that if I didn't do something, nobody would. 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: That friend who convinced Peter til he could do something 34 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: about it Aaron Desuza, And. 35 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: The idea was pretty simple. If Peter sued Gawker publicly, 36 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 2: it would just generate more attention and not sort of 37 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 2: purpose he wanted to. And so what we did is 38 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 2: we engineered a proxy war whereby we found an individual, 39 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: in this case Hulk Hogan, who wanted to sue Gawker 40 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,800 Speaker 2: but didn't have the resources to do so. 41 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: Even if you don't know who hul Cogan is, you 42 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 1: know who hul Cogan is pro wrestler. He was the 43 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: face of the WWE for years and in twenty twelve, 44 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: Gaker pissed him off to they'd goten hold of a 45 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 1: sex tape of Hogan with his best friend's wife, and 46 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:35,680 Speaker 1: Goker posted it on their website. 47 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 4: When the video came out, it just totally flipped my 48 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 4: world upside down. 49 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: Here's Hogan testifying in court about the impact that video 50 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: had on his life. 51 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 4: No, I just remember going days without being able to sleep. 52 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 4: Just I just had a hard time functioning or eating 53 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 4: or anything like that. 54 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 5: I could just I was humiliated. 55 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,679 Speaker 4: I was completely humiliated. 56 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: We could make a whole other podcast about the God situation, 57 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: freedom of speech, consent and all that. But for Peter 58 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: Tiel and Aaron Desuza, they saw an opportunity. 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 2: We funded his lawsuit, and that lawsuit led to, you know, 60 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: one hundred and forty million dollar judgment that bankrupted Calker. 61 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 2: And we did it completely in stealth. No one knew 62 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,840 Speaker 2: that we were funding haul Cogan's case until we actually won. 63 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 5: Then, how do you feel about winning? 64 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: It's great to win. They won the largest dimasion of 65 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: privacy judgment in history. 66 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: In the end, Peter and Aaron suit effectively forced Cocker 67 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: to shut down, and in Peter til Aaron had found 68 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: a new friend for life, the life they planned on 69 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: living for a very very long time. From Kaleidoscope and 70 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 1: iHeart podcast This is Superhuman. 71 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 5: I'm Chris Guyamali and I'm Sam Egan. 72 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: A few years ago into Aaron Desuza was at a 73 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,640 Speaker 1: gym in Miami, an Equinox for what it's worth. There 74 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: he noticed these two giant powerlifters working out and chatting. 75 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: They were talking about performance enhancing drugs. Aaron told me 76 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: recently when that happened. He walked up to them and asked, 77 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: what are you guys talking about? 78 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,240 Speaker 6: And they're like, oh, we are enhancing ourselves, and they've 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 6: talked about all the different compounds and therapies that they 80 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 6: were using. I thought this was really interesting, and I 81 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 6: asked them, actually, what do you do for a living 82 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 6: and one of them was like, oh, I'm an endocrinologist. 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: Aaron's first thought, he says, how incredible it was that 84 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: a board certified doctor was taking performance enhancing drugs. So 85 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: he got to work learning about the economic inequalities of 86 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 1: the Olympics, how social media was influencing a bunch more 87 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: people to biohack, which by now I'm sure is familiar, 88 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 1: but basically DIY biology, an idea also incubated in Silicon 89 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: Valley before going mainstream, people experimenting with drugs and lifestyle 90 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,159 Speaker 1: changes in an effort to through themselves, live longer, look better. 91 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: That sort of thing. 92 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 2: I thought there was something in here, There's something in 93 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: here that can all come together. But there's a lot 94 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 2: of ingredients. 95 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: Aaron had the beginnings of an idea for a recipe, 96 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:17,679 Speaker 1: so for the holidays he decided to run a house 97 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: and spend a ton of time figuring out the necessary steps. 98 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: And in a Christmas of twenty twenty two, I wrote 99 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 2: about an enhanced Olympic Games. 100 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: As Aaron sees it, in the history of this world, 101 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: you can break everything down by. 102 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 2: Age, the Stone Age, the Bronze Age, the Iron Age, 103 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,679 Speaker 2: the Middle Ages, the Age of Enlightenment, the age of industrialization, 104 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 2: and our lifetime atomic space and information. 105 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: All of these inflection points basically times of massive change. 106 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: So his question is what inflection point are we in 107 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: right now? 108 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 2: I believe that there are two choices for the next 109 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:05,479 Speaker 2: age of mankind. Will the next age of mankind be 110 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: the artificial intelligence age or will it be the enhanced age? 111 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: And so I sat down and I wrote for three 112 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: solid days and came out with the first deck for 113 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: the Enhanced Games. 114 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: The next weekend. Over New Year's Eve, Aaron and Peter 115 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 1: are together and Peter asked Aaron what he'd been working. 116 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,600 Speaker 2: On, and I said, oh, I have. I'm writing about 117 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: an enhanced version of the Olympics where performance enhancing drugs 118 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 2: are allowed, and he was like, that's really cool. 119 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: I guess when you're a very close friend is a billionaire, 120 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: someone with a long history of back in big risky beds, 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: the world is your oyster. And that's how Aaron got 122 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: his financial backer for Enhanced I want to go back 123 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: for a second to what Aaron calls the two choices 124 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: for the next age of mankind, the Age of AI 125 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: or the enhance stage. According to Aaron, if we go artificial, 126 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: it'll mean humans are no longer relevant, that the machines 127 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: have taken over beaten us. So he says, he hopes 128 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: we go enhanced. 129 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: I hope the headlines will say that the tenth age 130 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: of mankind has forgotten the enhanced age, and it is 131 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 2: a epic duty of stewardship that somehow has rested upon 132 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 2: my shoulders to bring that age a mankind into existence. 133 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: Taking what he's saying in good faith. It is pretty 134 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: huge that if it comes down to us versus them, 135 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: humans versus AI, he can make sure we humans win 136 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: by helping us manipulate drug and augment our bodies. I've 137 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: been following the Games for almost a year now, and 138 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: for a lot of that time it's been kind of 139 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: a novelty, a curiosity, like have you heard that new 140 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: crazy thing the ultra rich are doing now? But in 141 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: the last few months it does feel like something I've shifted. 142 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: Not about the Games exactly, but they extended universe around it. 143 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: Like at this year's Super Bowl, one of the biggest 144 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: commercials was for a weight loss injection, a golp one. 145 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 7: I'm Serena Williams and I'm a real Row member. They 146 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 7: say golp ones for weight loss is a shortcut. 147 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 5: It's not. It's science. 148 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 7: Gop Ones helped me lose thirty one pounds one app. 149 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 5: To hit my goals. 150 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 7: This is healthcare. 151 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: This is maybe Aaron's so called enhanced age has already begun. 152 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: What enhance is doing. They really do believe they're ushering 153 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: in a new era, one that begins with sports and 154 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:53,559 Speaker 1: ends with a fix for some of mankind's biggest problems. 155 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 8: I'm not doing it because it's controversial or whatever. It's 156 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 8: really things I want to see happened. 157 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: This is Christian Angermeier. He's Eron's co founder and enhanced 158 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: Christian's a forty eight year old billionaire from Germany. He's 159 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: an investor, entrepreneur, cryptocurrency guy, focused primarily on what i'd 160 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: call unconventional science, like psychedelics. He founded one of the 161 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: leading psychedelic farmer companies in the world. He's so down 162 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: for hallucinogens that he has the molecular structure of psilocybin, 163 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: the psychoactive compound, and magic mushrooms tattooed on his arm. 164 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: And he's also an especially enthusiastic collector of giant dinosaur fossils. 165 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: Who do you see being like the enhanced customer anyone? 166 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: And this is Maximilian Martin. After Christian got involved in 167 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: the Games, Max was brought on as CEO. 168 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 9: If you have a body enhancements can help you and 169 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 9: become closer to achieving your goals onlike better at what 170 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 9: you want to do. 171 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: Then without these men make up a trifecta leading us 172 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: into the so called Enhanced Age start with their counter 173 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: to the Olympics, the Enhanced Games back in twenty twenty five. 174 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: We ask Christian what what success look like at the 175 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: end of enhanced first year. 176 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 8: Obviously, one big success will be will world records be broken? 177 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 8: That's the fun part why people tune in. That's one thing. 178 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: A world record, of course, is very tangible. By the 179 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: end of the day on May twenty fourth of this year, 180 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: we'll know if that happened. But Christian has other ideas 181 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: for what success looks like too. He has an entire vision. 182 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: He says, once the public realizes, by way of enhanced 183 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: that aging and dying are within each person's control. 184 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 8: Then I think people will realize much more weight a 185 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 8: moment than maybe other things are my control, happiness, like 186 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 8: how I spent my time and all of that. But 187 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 8: let's not even talk about lengths of life. Let's talk 188 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 8: about quality of life. 189 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 1: To their credit, Christian and Max practice what they preach. 190 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: They both choose to enhance, and they both treat their 191 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: choice to do so as a kind of advertisement, a 192 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: badge of honor, demonstrating their idea of the highest quality 193 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: of life. For example, at the start of our interview 194 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: with Christian when we ask him the same generic question 195 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: everybody uses for setting microphone levels and distance. 196 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 8: Not a lot because I'm actually a ZEPPI. 197 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: Not a lot because I'm actually on ozembic. And yes, 198 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: Christian absolutely does consider GLP ones to be a kind 199 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: of performance enhancing drug. He calls it outsourced discipline. Basically, 200 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: ozebic is managing his hunger for him, which frees up 201 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: his self control for other things and for Max. 202 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 9: So I'm obviously not an athlete. I'm not trying to 203 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 9: improve my time in the track or time to pool 204 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 9: or what was I optimizing for feeling the best that 205 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 9: I can possibly do? 206 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: So Max obviously he's muscular. He's also clean shaven, looks 207 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: a little bit like he could be in a boy band. 208 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: When Semini first meet him at Enhance HQ, he's weren't 209 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: a cardigan that looks at least one size too small. 210 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: His enhancement of choice is to sacerone. 211 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 9: What has I've been my experience with testosterone for me 212 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,319 Speaker 9: personally is that what you put into your body versus 213 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 9: what you get out is a tenfold Like it's been 214 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 9: insane and so my body started lining like you could 215 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 9: see reforming growing after every workout. It's been just amazing. 216 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: There's another reason he's on it. Max says he never 217 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: wants to speak authoritatively about something that he himself hasn't 218 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: actually tried. It's important to him that he understands what 219 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 1: these drugs actually do to the body, especially when it 220 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: comes to self experimenting. To that end, he hasn't just 221 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: gotten on testosterone. He's gotten off it too. 222 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 9: It's not because I wanted to, but I was like, 223 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,079 Speaker 9: I wanted to see my body react once I get 224 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 9: off of it again. Well, I'll tell you it was like, 225 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 9: after three four months of being off, the only thing 226 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:45,320 Speaker 9: I was thinking of, I want to be back on again. 227 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 9: It's like fucking amazing. 228 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: He's back on it. Don't worry. But he says testosterone 229 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: is not for everyone. Actually, it lowers sperm count, making 230 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: it sort of like birth control for men. Max, though 231 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: he never wants to have kids, he thinks of any 232 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: fertility side effects as a bonus, maybe even kind of radical. 233 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 9: Because it has the same benefits as if my girlfriend 234 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 9: was taking the contraceptive pill, but she does not need 235 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 9: to take a contraceptive pill, which is a humongous disturbance 236 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 9: of her homeown household, etc. And millions of women suffer 237 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 9: from this for the rest of their lives. And me 238 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 9: as a guy, I can actually take the stastrung feel 239 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 9: like superhero and we have the same benefits in terms 240 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 9: of fertility. 241 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: By the way, none of us are doctors, but the 242 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,840 Speaker 1: National Institutes of Health does say that taesosaron therapy is 243 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: not a reliable form of contraception, so you know, check 244 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 1: with their doctors before following Max's lead. Something I've picked 245 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 1: up over time. Folks that enhance can get a bit 246 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: perhaps trigger happy about who among us is quote unquote 247 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: enhanced about what does and doesn't count as a performance 248 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: enhancing drug. 249 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 9: First fact, the interesting one, seventy percent of orchestra musicians 250 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 9: are enhanced. They take beta blockers to help them with 251 00:13:59,120 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 9: stage front. 252 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: When Max says seventy percent of musicians are enhanced, he 253 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: makes it sound like enhancements are a part of those 254 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: musicians regular routine, which isn't exactly true. There was a 255 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: study which found that seventy percent of orchestra musicians have 256 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: tried taking beta blockers for stage fright, which isn't the 257 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: same thing as actively using them. But anyway, what I 258 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: think is interesting here the question of what counts as 259 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: an enhancement drug. Do beta blockers enhance or do they 260 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: simply treat? Do they make musicians perform better or do 261 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: they slow down musicians heartbeats so that they can perform better? 262 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: Where is the line? 263 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 9: Am I twenty five years old and I'm training for 264 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 9: a marathon or a sixty five years old looking to 265 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 9: have more energy to take my grandkids to the playground 266 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 9: and play with them. Enhancements can help me achieved, both 267 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 9: with a male or female, whether I'm Liberal and conservative, Muslim, 268 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 9: more Christian or Jew and Housman's can help me. So 269 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 9: it's like what we're selling. We're selling the opportunity to 270 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 9: live en hand, not substances. 271 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: Either way, the point is they're selling something which really 272 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,359 Speaker 1: throws a wrench in this particular utopia Max is describing, 273 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: because even if your gender doesn't matter, your politics, your faith, 274 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: you still need to have enough money to buy into 275 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: the enhanced lifestyle. The argument I've seen scrolling around a 276 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: little bit that the enhanced age would create divisions among 277 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: those who are enhanced and people who are not. Like personally, 278 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: I worry it might actually create some sort of caste system. Well, yeah, 279 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: so Aaron Desusa Again, my answer. 280 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: To that is that the drugs themselves are not expensive. 281 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: Aaron says, drugs aren't what's being gate kept, it's information. 282 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: Limited access to the truth about performance enhancing drugs is 283 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: what sends in so many people's way, And what enhance 284 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 1: is doing is distributing that information once it's out there, 285 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: and they're an increased demand, Aaron things, pharmaceutical companies are 286 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: going to want to sell to as many people as possible, 287 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: which will drive costs down. 288 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 2: And so I'm a firm believer of market capitalism, and 289 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: I think market capitalism will actually solve this problem. 290 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: If the medications are cheap, doesn't necessarily mean though, that 291 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: they're going to be cheap to buy and procure for, 292 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,000 Speaker 1: you know, people who aren't wealthy. 293 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 5: I think so. 294 00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 2: I think the costs always come down over time. And 295 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: also it's like I just I think people who are 296 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 2: not enhanced, you know, that could be a status symbol 297 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: in itself, right, you know, like organic food is a 298 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: luxury item. It is a status symbol. 299 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: What Aaron's saying, I've never really heard anything quite like it. 300 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: He's saying the thing he's helping bring to the people. 301 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: Performance enhancing drugs are so likely to catch on and 302 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,960 Speaker 1: therefore so likely to become accessible the richest people in 303 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: the world, the ones who up until now have had 304 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: the most access to enhancing they might end up choosing 305 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: not to enhance to prove they don't have to. 306 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: America has a lot of structural problems with the healthcare system. 307 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 2: I'll never argue about that, right, And uh, you know, 308 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 2: and it's like, you know, it's so obvious, like being 309 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 2: obese is a class signal in the United States, just 310 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 2: as being thin is. Right, because there are so many 311 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 2: structural deficiency deficiencies with the US healthcare system. 312 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 10: If you can't save, if you can't if you can't 313 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 10: fix the US healthcare system. 314 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:35,719 Speaker 1: That's one of my producers on this show, Vena meszis, 315 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: then how. 316 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 10: Can you usher in a new era of mankind? 317 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 2: Well, like, you know, government is an really intractable, hard 318 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: structural problem to solve, right, Elon Musk couldn't like even 319 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: downsize the government, yet he can make like humans interplanetary. Right. 320 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 5: Okay, you may be thinking I press play in this 321 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 5: podcast because I wanted to hear about a bunch of 322 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 5: dudes juicing to the gills, and instead we're talking about 323 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 5: like Stephen Hawking's theory of Everything, which I know can 324 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 5: get really boring really quickly, but I do think the 325 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 5: boring stuff, the fine print is starting to show up everywhere. 326 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 5: What's advertised to us on Instagram and TikTok all the 327 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 5: way to new legislation about what drugs were allowed to 328 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 5: play around with. There's this philosophy that's been around for 329 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 5: a couple hundred years and is the undercurrent running through 330 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 5: all of this. It's called transhumanism. In this case, the 331 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 5: prefix trends like transcendence going above and beyond ordinary limits 332 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 5: and humanism, well that's humans what they're able to achieve. 333 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 10: So transhumanism is the idea that human beings not only can, 334 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 10: but they also should enhance themselves through technology. 335 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 5: This is Alex Krotowski. She's a social psychologist, a tech 336 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 5: and society journalist. She just recently wrote a book about 337 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 5: exactly this. It's called The Immortalists, The Death of Death 338 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 5: and the Race for Eternal. 339 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 10: Life, which is looking specifically at why on Earth's Silicon 340 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 10: Valley is interested in immortality, longevity, and indeed transhumanism. 341 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 5: So older innovations that transhumanists would have tucked under their 342 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 5: umbrella of enhancement. That'd be eyeglasses technology that enables humans 343 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 5: to see, or pacemakers, technology that regulates the human heart 344 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 5: and glasses pacemakers. They're obviously not so mind boggling these days, 345 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 5: but there was a time when they basically sounded like witchcraft. 346 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 5: These days in twenty twenty six, what counts as transhumanist 347 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 5: innovation is basically what enhances the selling or wanting to sell, 348 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 5: and where is it all headed? Pretty quickly gets it 349 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 5: sounds like sci fi. 350 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:48,239 Speaker 10: That means uploading themselves to server farms on Jupiter and 351 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 10: enhancing the sides of their brains and living in bliss 352 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 10: and delight forever. Or it means putting sensors under their 353 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 10: skin so that when they walk through a door, that 354 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 10: particular room turns the light on or gets the air 355 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:04,640 Speaker 10: conditioning to be exactly the right temperature for them. 356 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,200 Speaker 5: Something changed in transhumanist discourse about halfway through the twentieth century. 357 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 5: This writer Julian Huxley, maybe you've heard of his brother, Aldus, 358 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 5: the more famous of the two Huxleys. He wrote a 359 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 5: book called Brave New World, but anyway other Huxley. In 360 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 5: nineteen fifty seven he started writing about transhumanism. 361 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 10: Huxley wrote this quite provocative essay describing how we could 362 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 10: be transhuman We could supersede our human not suffering, but 363 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 10: I suppose are the human condition or human frailty. 364 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 5: In other words, Huxley believed that we could solve for 365 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 5: what Alex calls the bad, treat it, get rid of 366 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 5: it so the good can thrive. Huxley's essay, which is 367 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 5: quite literally titled transhumanism, he coined the term. It's mostly 368 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 5: about how incredible the world could be. It's upbeat, optimistic, 369 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 5: and of course it's speculative, like saying what if science 370 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 5: fiction wasn't fiction at all. But there's one part of 371 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 5: what he wrote towards the end that takes a turn. Suddenly. 372 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 5: It isn't about what we could do, It's about what 373 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,640 Speaker 5: we are obligated to do, perhaps even have a moral 374 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 5: imperative to do. I read it back to Alex. 375 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,239 Speaker 11: That beauty, something to enjoy and something to be proud of, 376 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 11: is indispensable, and therefore that ugly or depressing towns are immoral. 377 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 11: That quality of people, not mere quantity, is what we 378 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 11: us aim at and therefore that a concerted policy is 379 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 11: required to prevent the present flood of population. 380 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 5: What's your reaction to that? 381 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 10: There was a lot of that around at the time, 382 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 10: that particular moment in history. I mean, that's ultimately, this 383 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 10: is coming out of the Holocaust, This is coming out 384 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 10: of a really dark period. This idea that we must 385 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 10: get rid of the bad, get rid of the ugly, 386 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 10: we must separate the good from the bad, right, suggests, 387 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 10: you know, some kind of organized system that crosses over 388 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 10: hard with this idea of eugenics. 389 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 5: Eugenics, if you know, you know, it's not great. Eugenics 390 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 5: is a theory that we can improve humans by controlling 391 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 5: who does and doesn't procreate. And just to say, this 392 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 5: line of thinking stains a whole lot of history, but 393 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 5: the Holocaust is an especially vivid and well known example. 394 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 5: Under the Third Reich, Germany categorized folks as bad or good, 395 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 5: eran or Jewish. They literally weeded out and killed whomever 396 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 5: they believed to be biologically undesirable, and they had a 397 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,119 Speaker 5: clear picture of what a biologically elite person looks like, 398 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 5: the Ubermensch superior man some translated just to superman. Now 399 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 5: what eugenics has to do with transhumanism is complicated and 400 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 5: hotly contested, but both taut a more perfect person, somebody 401 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 5: who looks better, performs better, thinks better. Still, where eugenics 402 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 5: are about stopping something from happening, transhumanism is about enhancing 403 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 5: or altering what already has happened, with, among other things, 404 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 5: performance enhancing drugs. 405 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 8: Enhancement is everything. It's like people now because of enhanced games. 406 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 8: It's obviously very much but muscles. But like, what are 407 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 8: we going to have like after two two, three years 408 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 8: all world records are broken? And maybe then we talk 409 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 8: more about how can we get more mental clarity? 410 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 5: Whatever? 411 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 8: Do you want to be happier? Do we slimmer? Why 412 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 8: do we want to have more sex? 413 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 1: Like? 414 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 8: Yeah, then a question is more sex like just like 415 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 8: why do I accept that I'm born with a certain intelligence? 416 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 8: Can't it be a little bit more intelligent? 417 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 5: Right? So that is, of course, if we can isolate 418 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,880 Speaker 5: or define intelligence in the first place. But again, one 419 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 5: blotonic ideal available to anyone who wants it at a cost. 420 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:49,680 Speaker 5: We recently asked Christian does he consider himself to be 421 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 5: a transhumanist? 422 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 8: So I don't like the word anymore. Yeah, it gives 423 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 8: people the feeling that we're leaving humanity behind. And I 424 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,960 Speaker 8: think sort of better term is that should be human maximization. 425 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 8: You are you, Yeah, I don't want to change you. 426 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 8: I want to help you to truly become what you 427 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 8: want to be. 428 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 10: The problem is is that if you have a singular 429 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 10: idea of beauty, then what happens to everybody else? 430 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:24,480 Speaker 5: Alex Krotowski Again. 431 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 10: They get transhuman away. This is getting rid of people 432 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 10: and saying, oh, I'm sorry you're in a wheelchair. You're 433 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 10: not actually allowed to become part of this community in 434 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 10: which beauty exists because we have decided that that ain't beautiful. 435 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 5: To be clear, no one Enhanced has ever articulated for 436 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 5: us what isn't beautiful. Certainly though they've defined what is. 437 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 5: Looking at their website there who we Are page, everyone 438 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 5: at the top there in the C suite is conventionally gorgeous. 439 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 5: Their products, page ads for the games helping us become 440 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 5: quote whoever we want to be. The overwhelming impression they 441 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,120 Speaker 5: give is that we want to be thin, hot and young. 442 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 5: What I see isn't how incredibly healthy they are. Instead, 443 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 5: I think about myself, my aging meat suit, my love handles, 444 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 5: the bags under my eyes, my receiving hairline. We asked Christian, 445 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 5: how does he feel about the pressure he's helping create 446 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:29,959 Speaker 5: for others to enhance. 447 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:34,439 Speaker 8: There is no pressure to enhance, There is no pressure 448 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 8: to enthands. Give me, give me an example. 449 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 5: Okay, I have friends, by the way, This is Kate 450 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,359 Speaker 5: Osborne talking. She's one of our editors on this show. 451 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 12: I have queer women friends who spent like twenty years 452 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 12: of her life not giving a shit about the beauty standard, 453 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 12: that being a huge car there done today now sort 454 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 12: of taking a zambag and starting to change their way 455 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 12: of like dressing. And I'm not against it, like do 456 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 12: you girl? 457 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 7: Do you girl? 458 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 12: But we've had conversations that they've said, Look, I just 459 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 12: feel I'm feeling the social pressure now in a really 460 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 12: different way. 461 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,400 Speaker 8: But I don't want them to be pressure. I want 462 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 8: to talk about it. So Okay, look, this is such 463 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 8: a great discussion. Let's take your friends. Why don't you 464 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 8: ask them? Okay, why do you feel the pressure? By 465 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 8: the way, great book, What's his first Name? One of 466 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 8: my favorite books. 467 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 5: Mid sentence, Christian turns to something that at least seems 468 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,760 Speaker 5: pretty far away from the topic of conventional beauty standards 469 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 5: to talk about a book. 470 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 8: His name is Victor Frankel. Victor Frankel was a Holocaust 471 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 8: survivor and he wrote these amazing books about his time 472 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 8: in the concentration camps. He had this idea that anything 473 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,959 Speaker 8: which happens in life, anything, it only gets meaning and 474 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 8: sometimes negative means because you allow it to. If you 475 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 8: say something negative, Now, if you insult me, it's completely 476 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 8: meaningless till I decide to give it meaning and get 477 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 8: annoyed or happy. 478 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 12: So this is man's quest for meaning. Right, he's talking 479 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 12: about being in a concentration camp and regulating his. 480 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 8: Feelings Men's Search for Meaning. 481 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 12: Search for Meaning? 482 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 5: Okay. Victor Frankel spent three years in concentration camps one 483 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,640 Speaker 5: of the Auschwitz, and though he did survive, his parents, 484 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,679 Speaker 5: his brother, and his pregnant wife did not. They all 485 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 5: died in the camps. Man Search for Meaning is a 486 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 5: memoir about those three years, but only in part. Frankel 487 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 5: lived to be ninety two, and he spent the vast 488 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 5: majority of his life practicing psychotherapy. Man Search for Meaning 489 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 5: doubles as a book about psychology. Specifically. Frankel wrote the 490 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 5: prisoners of war he encountered in those three years who 491 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 5: are most likely to survive were the ones who knew 492 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 5: and believed that their lives still mattered. Basically, even though 493 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 5: they are being treated like people without value. Somewhere deep down, 494 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 5: they were able to remind themselves that they were, even 495 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 5: against some of the most horrific backdrops. Frankel wrote, quote, 496 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 5: everything can be taken from a man, but one thing, 497 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 5: the last of the human freedoms, to choose one's attitude. 498 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 5: In any given set of circumstances. 499 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 8: What you experience, you allow it to have meaning for you. 500 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 8: So if you go back to your girlfriends and say, 501 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 8: why do you feel the pressure? Is somebody staying there 502 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,440 Speaker 8: with the gung to your head and say, takeo zampig, 503 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 8: it's really like so maybe they just it's maybe. 504 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 5: Just in their head. Christian's point, he says, is that 505 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,760 Speaker 5: whatever pressure Kate's friends feel to get thinner, to look different, 506 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 5: no one's forcing that onto them. It's a choice they 507 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 5: themselves are making. They're choosing to give weight loss meaning. 508 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 5: Of course, there will always be external factors in conversation 509 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 5: with your interior thoughts, Like Christian says, maybe Kate's friends, 510 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 5: or seek the attention of one person in particular. 511 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 8: And maybe they want to get late by a certain 512 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 8: person who is into thin women. And then I would say, look, 513 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 8: do you really need that certain person. If you need it, okay, 514 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 8: then I give you the freedom to get late. 515 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 5: Easier point being, he isn't offering anyone the freedom of 516 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 5: weight loss. He's offering them the freedom to choose weight 517 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 5: loss by way of enhancements. If they choose to assign 518 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 5: meaning to weight loss, Christian is offering them the freedom 519 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 5: to lose weight. 520 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 8: If you want to be chubby, then don't go to 521 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 8: Fashion Week Paris for a party, because most likely you 522 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 8: don't find people who like chubby people. Go to the 523 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 8: chubby lover party and you find a lot of people 524 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 8: who like you. 525 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: Putting aside the specifics of Christian's analogy, here's the question 526 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: I'm left with. If the overall ideology holds that enhancement 527 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 1: will to find a new era of mankind, what exactly 528 00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,360 Speaker 1: will that new era look like? What world are hoping 529 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: to encounter? On the other side, will it obligate us 530 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,160 Speaker 1: to keep up with it forever? Enhancing Jones's and anything 531 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: short of that choosing not to enhance, not being able 532 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 1: to enhance. Will those be signs of weakness, of failure, 533 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: less vital in an ever increasingly competitive world. Or maybe 534 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: it'll be liberating, just as Christian says, relieving the pain 535 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: of not being able to actualize the body you want, 536 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 1: perhaps is not giving into vanity, more like removing the 537 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: burden of vanity in the first place. 538 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:38,239 Speaker 10: The Enhanced Games is so brilliantly transhumanist. I mean, it's like, 539 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 10: it's not even it's it's not even a joke. Hollywood 540 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 10: couldn't have written a better plot for the transhumanist movement. 541 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 1: One thing I'll say, for all the tech, the forward thinking, 542 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: the future is now stuff, It's not like any of 543 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: this is new. When I was a kid, I'd watch 544 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: someone like Alan Iverson and I'd think I want to 545 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: be just like him. And in magazine interviews he'd say 546 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: all it takes is hard work and discipline. Grown ups 547 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: would say the same, and maybe that was sometimes true sometimes, 548 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: but it takes a bunch of other things too. Something 549 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: I really do appreciate about Enhanced About this new Donna 550 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: performance enhancement drugs, in general, it does nullify the proverbial 551 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: gatekeeping of the past. Kids, he says, they can look 552 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: at Ben Proud or James Madison and think I want 553 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 1: to be just like him too. At least now they know, yes, 554 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: it takes hard work, it takes discipline, but above all, 555 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: it takes drugs. 556 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 10: Here are the people who have enhanced themselves in all 557 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 10: of these ways, and they are extraordinary, above and beyond 558 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 10: those who have not enhanced themselves. Well, why on earth 559 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 10: would you not enhance yourself? 560 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 8: Why wouldn't you? 561 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 10: I mean, of course you're gonna. Don't be ridiculous. Why 562 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 10: are you being a purist? It is one percent the 563 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 10: proof of concept, and it's brilliantly ridiculous, and it's fun 564 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 10: and matt and terrifying, but also just like the best 565 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 10: sci fi ever. 566 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: Truth is, it's not sci fi at all. It's happening 567 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 1: right now all over, including at a hotel in Abu 568 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 1: Dhabi where the enhanced athletes are right now preparing for 569 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: the games that's next time on Superhuman. Superhuman is a 570 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscope production in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The series is produced, 571 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: reported and co hosted by Sam Egan. Then Emesizi's mental 572 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:37,720 Speaker 1: is our senior producer, production support from Darluk Potts, edited 573 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: by Kate Osborne, editorial consulting by Adiza Egan, original composition 574 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 1: and mixing by Hannis Brown, Reported and hosted by me 575 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 1: Chris Guyemali. From Kaleidoscope, our executive producers are Kate Osbourne, 576 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: Ozwa Lashin, Mangeshati Kador and Kosislinos. Julian Nutter is the 577 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: head of studio for Kaleidoscope. And From My Heart, our 578 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: executive producers are Katrina Norval and Nikki Etor. If you 579 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 1: like what you're hearing, subscribe to the feed now so 580 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: you don't miss our next shop