WEBVTT - Political Demonization is Solvable (again) 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:26.236 Bushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Back in twenty nineteen, 0:00:26.276 --> 0:00:29.556 my co host Anna Applewam interviewed a Swiss history student, 0:00:29.956 --> 0:00:34.756 then twenty eight year old Flavia Kleiner. My solvable is 0:00:35.036 --> 0:00:38.756 to build a political home for people who want to 0:00:38.756 --> 0:00:43.196 defend our liberal order against writing populists as well. In 0:00:43.236 --> 0:00:47.356 Switzerland as well as in other countries, populous tend to 0:00:47.396 --> 0:00:50.956 frame politics as a battle between the virtuous ordinary masses 0:00:50.996 --> 0:00:54.316 and the corrupt elite. They demand that the will of 0:00:54.356 --> 0:00:58.396 the people should always win, and that sounds pretty reasonable, 0:00:58.436 --> 0:01:04.116 but in reality, many populous movements have actually targeted the poor, immigrants, women, 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:08.876 religious minorities and others to create an US against them dynamic. 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:13.436 Those divisions can make it harder to unify around local, national, 0:01:13.476 --> 0:01:17.476 and global goals like fighting poverty and disease and banding 0:01:17.516 --> 0:01:20.996 together to face our climate crisis. Does this all feel 0:01:21.076 --> 0:01:24.556 uncomfortably familiar and close to home. I wish I could 0:01:24.556 --> 0:01:27.676 say the populism had decreased around the world since our 0:01:27.716 --> 0:01:31.516 interview with Kleiner first aired last year, but it's the opposite. 0:01:32.236 --> 0:01:35.476 Listening again, I was struck by just how encouraging it 0:01:35.516 --> 0:01:39.676 is to hear about Kleiner's winning strategies. Flavia Cliner is 0:01:39.716 --> 0:01:43.516 the co founder of Operation Libero, and just last month, 0:01:43.716 --> 0:01:49.956 her organization helped defeat yet another populist xenophobic referendum. Cliner's 0:01:50.036 --> 0:01:53.956 insights and optimism feel especially meaningful as we approach our 0:01:53.996 --> 0:02:00.116 own divisive national elections here in the United States. Here's 0:02:00.116 --> 0:02:04.556 her conversation with my co host Anne Appleball. You a 0:02:04.556 --> 0:02:08.236 few years ago identified what you felt to be a 0:02:08.356 --> 0:02:13.036 very deep problem in your country. Can you describe what 0:02:13.076 --> 0:02:16.196 it is and how did you first recognize it? So 0:02:16.316 --> 0:02:20.076 actually goes back to well by date of birth. Nearly 0:02:20.156 --> 0:02:23.276 it was a ninety two there was a vote on 0:02:23.356 --> 0:02:27.516 Switzerland joining or not joining the European Commercial Area or 0:02:27.556 --> 0:02:32.476 economic European Economic Area. The EA and the Swiss refused that, 0:02:33.156 --> 0:02:37.476 and that was actually the starting point of incredible career 0:02:37.796 --> 0:02:41.916 of a party called the Swiss People's Party here, which 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:45.676 is which happened to turn from a really conservative party 0:02:46.076 --> 0:02:51.276 into a rather writing populist party as well. And Christophe Blojo, 0:02:51.436 --> 0:02:56.796 he is a leader, the well known personality of this party, 0:02:56.996 --> 0:03:00.676 saying that he has tailor made suits but which actually 0:03:00.716 --> 0:03:03.676 don't really fit on the shoulder, so he would pretend 0:03:03.716 --> 0:03:06.476 to be one of you know, the people, but actually 0:03:06.476 --> 0:03:09.116 he's a billionaire. He's super rich, one of the richest 0:03:09.156 --> 0:03:12.516 people in Switzerland. He runs this party and he finances 0:03:12.556 --> 0:03:16.716 this party mostly, and so that was basically the start 0:03:17.116 --> 0:03:20.116 of this career of the party. So the problem you 0:03:20.196 --> 0:03:24.596 identified is the problem of Swiss populism. You identified a 0:03:24.636 --> 0:03:27.676 particular event and it was the referendum on mass migration. 0:03:27.716 --> 0:03:31.596 Can you explain what's the significance of referendums in Switzerland 0:03:31.636 --> 0:03:34.356 and why this one in particular affected you. The SPAPE 0:03:34.676 --> 0:03:38.956 came up with what we call a popular initiative, which 0:03:39.036 --> 0:03:43.596 is a direct democratic proposal to the Swiss people that 0:03:43.636 --> 0:03:46.956 we vote on, and it means that you need to 0:03:46.996 --> 0:03:52.236 collect one hundred thousand signatures on a specific legal text, 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:57.276 which then, if it is accepted, is being introduced into 0:03:57.276 --> 0:04:00.476 our constitution. So it's such just some law, you know, 0:04:00.636 --> 0:04:05.116 it's changing our constitution. So the writing populists as well 0:04:05.156 --> 0:04:09.556 as other parties misuse this tool today as a marketing 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:13.076 tool for their issues. They come up with this just 0:04:13.236 --> 0:04:16.996 right before election so they can campaign on a specific issue. 0:04:17.236 --> 0:04:20.316 But the originally this right was given to minorities which 0:04:20.316 --> 0:04:24.236 would never be represented in Parliament, and through this initiative 0:04:24.316 --> 0:04:27.596 they could introduce law and come up with issues which 0:04:27.596 --> 0:04:31.156 matter to them. And so that particular event was in 0:04:31.356 --> 0:04:34.596 February twenty fourteen. But we voted on the so called 0:04:34.636 --> 0:04:38.556 mass immigration initiative. Already from the name, you can see 0:04:38.556 --> 0:04:42.076 that it comes up. It brings up a certain framing 0:04:42.476 --> 0:04:46.156 and the ASPHAPE wanted to limit the number of people 0:04:46.236 --> 0:04:50.796 coming to Switzerland in the free movement of People agreement 0:04:50.996 --> 0:04:54.516 that we have with the European Union. Switzerland is not 0:04:54.596 --> 0:04:56.836 a member of the European Union, but we have bilateral 0:04:56.916 --> 0:04:59.516 treaties and the ASPHAPA is that there are just too 0:04:59.556 --> 0:05:03.796 many people coming to Switzerland every year. And they won, Yeah, 0:05:04.036 --> 0:05:06.916 by a really close marching of fifty point three percent. 0:05:07.036 --> 0:05:10.156 It was only twenty thousand votes made a difference. And 0:05:10.196 --> 0:05:12.476 so you said to yourself, how do we stop this? 0:05:12.596 --> 0:05:14.516 And then you went through a process of trying to 0:05:14.556 --> 0:05:17.636 think how do we push back against this kind of language. Yeah, 0:05:17.636 --> 0:05:20.956 the thing was we didn't actually recognize ourselves in the 0:05:20.996 --> 0:05:24.076 country that we grew up in because we saw Switzerland 0:05:24.076 --> 0:05:29.236 as a you know, cosmopol international country, open and so on. 0:05:29.356 --> 0:05:32.316 And nobody really expected this to happen. It was like 0:05:32.316 --> 0:05:35.116 our Brexit moment. You know what, we said, Okay, that's 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:36.956 not the country that we want to live in. We 0:05:37.036 --> 0:05:38.916 want to change this. We want to have a brighter 0:05:38.996 --> 0:05:42.396 future and a brighter vision for what Twittererland can be. 0:05:42.916 --> 0:05:46.956 But the populist argument had already infected all the other parties. 0:05:46.956 --> 0:05:49.556 In other words, everybody began saying and so it's on. Well, 0:05:49.596 --> 0:05:51.876 actually maybe it's true, maybe there are too many people here, 0:05:51.956 --> 0:05:55.516 Maybe we need stronger borders, maybe we need greater sovereignty. 0:05:55.676 --> 0:05:58.276 So how do you push back against that kind of 0:05:58.676 --> 0:06:01.756 you know, this change of social mood. Basically, what we 0:06:01.796 --> 0:06:05.236 saw is that we want to promote Switzerland regarding to 0:06:05.316 --> 0:06:08.356 the future. We said, Switzerland is the land of opportunity 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:11.356 of the twenty century. We're not a kind of open 0:06:11.436 --> 0:06:14.796 air museum where nothing should ever change. And that's also 0:06:14.836 --> 0:06:16.996 the country we want to live in two thousand and fifty. 0:06:17.036 --> 0:06:19.596 We're actually looking forward to the year two thousand. So 0:06:20.196 --> 0:06:23.236 you began reframing the conversation. But actually you said to 0:06:23.236 --> 0:06:26.956 me earlier, you thought first about creating a political party, 0:06:26.996 --> 0:06:28.876 and then you decided that wasn't the way to go right. 0:06:29.116 --> 0:06:31.716 So for us, I mean, of course we're super disappointed 0:06:31.716 --> 0:06:34.516 about all the other parties. It just overtook the narration 0:06:34.596 --> 0:06:36.916 of the SPA pay of there are too many people 0:06:36.956 --> 0:06:40.516 in our trains, there are too many people renting apartments here. 0:06:40.756 --> 0:06:43.396 First we thought, okay, we have to just make a 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:46.596 new party because we don't we cannot identify with any 0:06:46.636 --> 0:06:49.396 other we don't have a political home. But then we 0:06:49.516 --> 0:06:51.836 realized that in the Swiss political system it doesn't really 0:06:51.876 --> 0:06:53.996 make sense to create a new party. But instead we 0:06:54.116 --> 0:07:00.596 decided to create an overpartisan movement, which actually goes against 0:07:00.636 --> 0:07:05.116 this tendency of polarization. But we wanted to unite the 0:07:05.316 --> 0:07:09.396 progressive liberal minds in this country, and also we wanted 0:07:09.436 --> 0:07:12.556 to link us somehow back to the tradition of eighteen 0:07:12.636 --> 0:07:16.036 forty eight, which was the foundation of the liberal stat 0:07:16.076 --> 0:07:20.676 of Switzerland. And we introduced ourselves with our manifesto as 0:07:20.716 --> 0:07:23.756 the children of eighteen forty eight, So trying to link 0:07:24.036 --> 0:07:26.356 these liberal ideas back to the past, so they're part 0:07:26.436 --> 0:07:28.316 of Swiss history and they don't seem like some kind 0:07:28.356 --> 0:07:31.156 of foreign import. No. Absolutely, and even more, it was 0:07:31.196 --> 0:07:35.676 a really patriotic but emancipated, patriotic understanding of where we 0:07:35.716 --> 0:07:38.836 come from. The founding fathers of our country were the 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:42.756 Liberals in eighteen forty eight, and we totally identify with 0:07:43.236 --> 0:07:46.996 their mindset of what it means to be a modern Switzerland. 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:50.076 But then, how did you actually change people's minds? How 0:07:50.076 --> 0:07:52.636 did you begin arguing this? I mean, you're a group 0:07:52.676 --> 0:07:56.836 of students at the university. You know what were actually 0:07:56.836 --> 0:07:59.276 the tools that you used? Now I jumped forward to 0:07:59.876 --> 0:08:03.716 October twenty fifteen, that was like one and a half 0:08:03.836 --> 0:08:07.196 year after the whole thing happened, and we launched our organization, 0:08:07.276 --> 0:08:11.116 our movement. We had actions in Switzerland in twenty fifteen, 0:08:11.356 --> 0:08:14.116 and that was a moment where again the sval Pay 0:08:14.276 --> 0:08:17.876 the writing Popputists, became the strongest party in Switzerland with 0:08:17.956 --> 0:08:22.356 twenty nine percent, okay, twenty nine percent of our parliament. 0:08:22.716 --> 0:08:25.036 And so again the other party said, oh, come on, 0:08:25.196 --> 0:08:27.996 which is we can't you know, we have nothing to 0:08:28.596 --> 0:08:32.716 help us against this super strong party. And then only 0:08:32.756 --> 0:08:37.156 one month after the government said okay, guys, in three 0:08:37.196 --> 0:08:40.116 months time, we're going to vote on the so called 0:08:40.876 --> 0:08:44.916 expulsion of criminal foreigners initiative. That was an initiative which 0:08:44.956 --> 0:08:48.676 wanted to expel criminal foreigners, even for minor in frictions 0:08:48.676 --> 0:08:52.756 of law, for example driving two times too fast within 0:08:52.836 --> 0:08:55.916 ten years, which actually happens to everybody, you know. The 0:08:55.996 --> 0:08:58.436 other party said, oh no, come on, this is again 0:08:58.556 --> 0:09:04.036 about criminals and then foreigners, and it's driven by the SVAPAI, 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:07.956 this popular initiative. We have no chance. Rather we hide 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:11.956 and let it pass instead of losing again energy and 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:15.076 time and anyway, we just lost the elections. That was 0:09:15.116 --> 0:09:17.476 a moment where we somehow came up and said, okay, 0:09:17.836 --> 0:09:19.796 we don't want to live in a country where there's 0:09:19.836 --> 0:09:22.716 a kind of two tire legal system. You have to 0:09:22.756 --> 0:09:25.916 know that in Switzerland, twenty five percent of the population 0:09:26.076 --> 0:09:29.636 don't have a Swiss passport. They might live here for generations. 0:09:29.916 --> 0:09:31.956 They don't have a genuine link to the country that 0:09:32.036 --> 0:09:35.756 they come from, but they would have been maybe victims 0:09:35.796 --> 0:09:39.716 of that new law introduced into our constitution. So that 0:09:39.876 --> 0:09:42.276 was a moment where we somehow stood up and said, okay, 0:09:43.076 --> 0:09:45.996 we don't We're definitely not gonna make the gift to 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:50.276 the writing populace and defend criminal foreigners because then you 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:53.756 would anyway lose. So we realized that if we want 0:09:53.836 --> 0:09:58.076 to convince the conservative majority in Switzerland, we need to 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:01.476 speak about something that matters to them as well, because 0:10:01.476 --> 0:10:05.116 it's so super easy what the Writing Populace wanted to do. 0:10:05.196 --> 0:10:07.396 They wanted to ask the people and take, guys, this 0:10:07.436 --> 0:10:10.636 is your chance to expel crim foreigners from that country. 0:10:10.956 --> 0:10:12.636 Why don't you just say yes? And who's going to 0:10:12.676 --> 0:10:15.756 disagree with that? Right? And so we said instead, guys, 0:10:15.836 --> 0:10:20.196 this is actually going against the fundamental principles of our constitution, 0:10:20.516 --> 0:10:24.956 against rule of law, against principle of proportionality, which is 0:10:24.996 --> 0:10:28.636 super important to judges, because actually this law wanted to 0:10:29.036 --> 0:10:33.316 limit and restrict the ability ability of judges to actually 0:10:33.316 --> 0:10:37.036 look at the individual case and instead introduce a kind 0:10:37.076 --> 0:10:40.476 of automatism to our legal system. I think that was 0:10:40.556 --> 0:10:45.236 crucial because we decided that we somehow want to conquer 0:10:45.636 --> 0:10:50.396 the sovereignty of interpretation from the Writing Populists over their 0:10:50.436 --> 0:10:53.676 initiative through this. And that was actually the biggest compliment 0:10:53.716 --> 0:10:56.636 that the party leader of the Writing Populists made me 0:10:57.036 --> 0:10:59.716 was when he said after the election, after the whole campaign, 0:10:59.716 --> 0:11:01.916 he said, I didn't know what happened, but at sometimes, 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:04.236 at some point we only spoke about rule of law, 0:11:04.316 --> 0:11:07.356 and that was actually framing big success right that we had. 0:11:07.556 --> 0:11:11.076 So you framed the idea, but what were the tactics 0:11:11.116 --> 0:11:13.836 that you used. The most important tactics, I think is 0:11:13.836 --> 0:11:17.596 really to find a popular language to what I just described, 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:22.116 which seems really abstract of course argument. We managed to 0:11:22.236 --> 0:11:26.756 translate it into a narrative, something tangible to people. And 0:11:26.796 --> 0:11:29.676 what we did is actually we spoke about modern Helvetia. 0:11:29.876 --> 0:11:33.476 She's like an allegorical figure which represents all the Swiss values. 0:11:33.476 --> 0:11:35.636 You you find her on our coins and so on, 0:11:35.996 --> 0:11:39.676 and this was referred to her. She's the emancipated figure 0:11:39.716 --> 0:11:43.516 which represents the values of eighteen forty eight, so the 0:11:43.636 --> 0:11:48.036 liberal institutions. And we said she would be smashed by 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:53.636 what we translated as a metaphor at this initiative. She 0:11:53.676 --> 0:11:56.716 will be smashed by a wrecking ball, this statue of 0:11:56.876 --> 0:12:00.356 modern helvets that will be wrecked. And you did memes 0:12:00.396 --> 0:12:03.956 of that, yeah, exactly, and the video and so on afterwards. 0:12:04.036 --> 0:12:07.076 That's a special group or entity of volunteers we have. 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:11.596 They're called online warriors. They basically are really active on 0:12:11.636 --> 0:12:16.196 social media and they're basically fighting back trolls and like 0:12:16.276 --> 0:12:19.756 fake news, which are spread online. They actually go there 0:12:19.796 --> 0:12:23.156 and engage the trolls into a debate, and they do 0:12:23.196 --> 0:12:27.516 it under their personal private account as citizens online with 0:12:27.596 --> 0:12:30.516 their real names, right, they debate there and what we 0:12:30.596 --> 0:12:33.796 see actually and that's the fantastic effect of it, that 0:12:33.876 --> 0:12:37.796 we can actually change debates online and that we can 0:12:37.796 --> 0:12:41.356 effect also the level of you know, factfulness and so on. 0:12:41.436 --> 0:12:44.276 So that's a really that's a really important change that 0:12:44.356 --> 0:12:47.036 we can see. I really think you can be popular 0:12:47.076 --> 0:12:51.196 without being populistic, you know, and you can. Actually you 0:12:51.276 --> 0:12:53.916 need to find ways in this media society that we 0:12:53.956 --> 0:12:56.916 live in. You need to find ways to say things easier. 0:12:57.076 --> 0:12:59.876 To give you another example, if we can pain we 0:13:00.036 --> 0:13:02.676 don't need to go to the noyetial Titung, which is 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:07.356 like the liberal leading newspaper that any anyway people read 0:13:07.396 --> 0:13:10.156 too who are convinced already, you know, But we need 0:13:10.196 --> 0:13:12.876 to go to the Tontig Minutant twenty minutes, which is 0:13:12.876 --> 0:13:15.916 a newspaper that people read every day a quarter of 0:13:15.956 --> 0:13:18.916 the Swiss population when they commute. If you get to 0:13:18.996 --> 0:13:22.196 this newspaper, which is really short, really easy and so on, 0:13:22.556 --> 0:13:24.796 you need to be able to say your message in 0:13:24.836 --> 0:13:28.876 one picture and five words. That's all you get, one picture, 0:13:29.116 --> 0:13:30.996 five words. Can you give me an example of the 0:13:31.076 --> 0:13:34.556 campaign that you won, because you've now won several campaigns, 0:13:34.636 --> 0:13:37.516 several referendum campaigns. Right, So the one I was mentioning 0:13:37.516 --> 0:13:40.756 about the expulsion of criminal foreigners, that was really unexpected 0:13:40.796 --> 0:13:43.716 because we turned from sixty six percent in the first 0:13:43.716 --> 0:13:47.076 polls who were in favor of this initiative, we turn 0:13:47.116 --> 0:13:50.476 it into sixty percent refusing it. And that was a 0:13:50.596 --> 0:13:54.636 super important moment in Switzerland. I remember that day after 0:13:54.676 --> 0:13:57.236 the vote when I walked through Swiss streets and you 0:13:57.276 --> 0:14:00.756 could really feel how people felt relieved that that was 0:14:00.796 --> 0:14:03.716 for the first time that the seventy percent that don't 0:14:03.796 --> 0:14:06.996 vote the SPA PAY, that didn't vote SA PAY four 0:14:07.036 --> 0:14:10.116 months before in the elections, that they realize that they're 0:14:10.156 --> 0:14:13.716 actually the big majority. Right that even though the writing 0:14:13.756 --> 0:14:17.876 puppeties managed to dominate the public discourse for years with 0:14:17.956 --> 0:14:22.716 their initiatives, with their propaganda, I must say by setting 0:14:22.796 --> 0:14:25.436 the themes that all the other parties need to discuss about. 0:14:25.476 --> 0:14:29.196 Because they're just the richest party, and because they're the 0:14:29.236 --> 0:14:31.636 best organized party, we must say, and because they are 0:14:31.636 --> 0:14:34.156 the ones who know how to communicate in media society. 0:14:34.476 --> 0:14:37.476 All of a sudden that was someone who could counter this, 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:40.236 and we felt that we are the seventy percent. And 0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:43.276 that was such an important moment in Switzerland where we 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:48.636 managed to break this sovereignty of interpretation over what Switzerland 0:14:48.756 --> 0:14:51.516 is and what Switzerland could be. Is there a longer 0:14:51.596 --> 0:14:54.996 term goal? Is that right now you're fighting referendum by referendum, 0:14:55.036 --> 0:14:57.876 but what happens next, So definitely that's only the first step. 0:14:58.036 --> 0:15:00.956 You know, that's important to know about Switzerland. When you 0:15:01.036 --> 0:15:04.636 win referend us, then you gain street credibility. You're the 0:15:04.676 --> 0:15:08.676 one who manages to convince the majority of the Swiss 0:15:09.236 --> 0:15:12.756 and so through this you gain a certain importance in 0:15:12.796 --> 0:15:16.476 the public discourse. But of course there we still didn't 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:19.716 actually affect elections because that's where laws are made in 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:21.676 the parliament. That's where we see that we still need 0:15:21.716 --> 0:15:25.476 to improve our influence so that because by now we 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.836 only always get in in the last possible moment, you know, 0:15:28.956 --> 0:15:34.996 to somehow prevent Switzerland from accepting some initiative. But what 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:37.596 we actually want is to go over from this reactive 0:15:37.676 --> 0:15:40.556 mode into a more active mode. It comes down to 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:43.036 this one thing that I would say, how do we 0:15:43.116 --> 0:15:47.596 manage that people see the real need of institutions that 0:15:47.756 --> 0:15:51.636 guarantee their freedom. How do we make sure that hope 0:15:51.716 --> 0:15:55.156 is an emotion just as strong as fear, because that's 0:15:55.156 --> 0:15:57.316 what I see is the biggest problem these days, that 0:15:57.596 --> 0:16:00.636 of course fear is a super powerful tool, but what 0:16:00.796 --> 0:16:03.436 we need and that was always a challenge to the rules. 0:16:03.556 --> 0:16:06.316 The future is unknown, So how can we promise a 0:16:06.436 --> 0:16:09.836 vision or like a future where people understand where they 0:16:09.836 --> 0:16:13.196 want to go to where they feel at home, Because 0:16:13.196 --> 0:16:17.476 that was always, you know, part of the emancipational process, 0:16:17.516 --> 0:16:22.876 that there was something tangible close by, something which seemed 0:16:22.916 --> 0:16:26.436 to be an improvement of the actual situation. And in 0:16:26.476 --> 0:16:30.116 a globalized world now where many values seem under pressure, 0:16:30.596 --> 0:16:33.396 I see that people aren't that sure whether the future 0:16:33.476 --> 0:16:36.956 will be brighter or will be more positive than it 0:16:37.036 --> 0:16:39.956 is today. And that's that's what I mean also by 0:16:40.036 --> 0:16:43.276 the mood or like the atmosphere that I want to 0:16:43.276 --> 0:16:47.196 touch her to change here in Switzerland, that people somehow 0:16:47.636 --> 0:16:51.516 are confident about the future bringing them a better life, 0:16:51.516 --> 0:16:53.876 that they're looking forward to the year twenty and fifty 0:16:53.876 --> 0:16:56.676 where they want to live with their families and good 0:16:56.756 --> 0:17:01.356 jobs in this country. How can this model help others? 0:17:01.796 --> 0:17:04.796 And you know you've you've created a movement inside Switzerland. 0:17:04.836 --> 0:17:07.956 It's got it deals with a very specific form of 0:17:07.996 --> 0:17:11.036 Swiss politics, name these referenda that you have periodically, and 0:17:11.076 --> 0:17:14.156 you've you've organized yourself around these referenda. But do you 0:17:14.196 --> 0:17:16.436 think there's a way that your way of thinking, in 0:17:16.476 --> 0:17:19.756 your way of operating could work in other places? I think? 0:17:19.756 --> 0:17:21.716 I mean if I look back on how we started, 0:17:21.836 --> 0:17:24.756 and you know, we were total amateurs. We had no 0:17:24.836 --> 0:17:27.716 clue about what we were actually doing right, but there 0:17:27.836 --> 0:17:31.516 was this this passion, this will of we want to 0:17:31.556 --> 0:17:35.596 tackle the problem. And that's really a question of you know, 0:17:35.676 --> 0:17:39.516 what's your attitude? You know, and here I maybe I 0:17:39.556 --> 0:17:43.236 always say you need this kind of reality distortion field 0:17:43.516 --> 0:17:45.756 of I don't know if you're fans of Star Trek, 0:17:45.836 --> 0:17:49.796 but there's La menagerie. I mean, imagine the Safe was 0:17:49.836 --> 0:17:52.236 the strongest party in our country. That's not as it 0:17:52.316 --> 0:17:56.276 is in other countries these days. Oftentimes they are still smaller, 0:17:56.636 --> 0:18:00.756 maybe even more writing populous parties. Okay, but in Switzerland 0:18:00.756 --> 0:18:03.196 take the dominant force for the twenty five years that 0:18:03.276 --> 0:18:05.436 I grew up in. You know, I have no I 0:18:05.876 --> 0:18:08.396 don't know any other system. I don't even find it brave, 0:18:08.476 --> 0:18:11.476 but we just had to imagine a different system. You 0:18:11.516 --> 0:18:14.836 need to believe in what you do and where you 0:18:14.876 --> 0:18:16.956 want to go. And this doesn't mean that you have 0:18:16.996 --> 0:18:19.276 to believe in your own propaganda. That's the worst you 0:18:19.316 --> 0:18:21.836 can do. But you need to be really convinced by 0:18:22.836 --> 0:18:25.116 where you want to go. And that brings me back 0:18:25.116 --> 0:18:28.236 to this vision that you need for your country, where 0:18:28.276 --> 0:18:30.076 you want to go to, and I think that's really 0:18:30.116 --> 0:18:34.436 what we're lacking off in many countries that politically just 0:18:34.636 --> 0:18:38.876 don't really provide a vision where people feel that they 0:18:38.876 --> 0:18:40.876 can feel at home there. So there's a there's a 0:18:40.956 --> 0:18:42.636 kind of template. You know, this is what you do? 0:18:42.716 --> 0:18:46.236 Could you could you name five things that people wanting 0:18:46.276 --> 0:18:49.156 to create a similar kind of movement should do. What 0:18:49.196 --> 0:18:52.316 I find interesting is to think about likely and unlikely allies. 0:18:52.596 --> 0:18:55.196 You know, who is out there, who do you know, 0:18:55.436 --> 0:18:57.596 who do you don't know? And with whom could you 0:18:58.156 --> 0:19:02.356 collaborate in this mission? You know, that's maybe an interesting 0:19:02.396 --> 0:19:07.236 strategically including allies, for example, conservative allies. Yeah, exactly, because 0:19:07.916 --> 0:19:10.476 you know you might be surprised to some people. But 0:19:11.236 --> 0:19:14.356 get out there, talk to people, get a common understanding 0:19:14.356 --> 0:19:16.356 about what really matters you, and that when I mean 0:19:16.636 --> 0:19:19.916 what really matters to you. I also want to stress 0:19:19.956 --> 0:19:24.956 the difference between civil society organizations and their possibility to 0:19:26.036 --> 0:19:30.436 actually stress what unites us, you know, not as much 0:19:30.476 --> 0:19:33.836 as parties. Parties have to stress what divides us right 0:19:34.436 --> 0:19:37.676 for their political means. Civil society organization we can actually 0:19:37.676 --> 0:19:40.956 stress what unites us, what kind of values we want 0:19:40.956 --> 0:19:43.956 to strengthen in our society, and how we want to 0:19:44.556 --> 0:19:49.156 build a closer society in a way less polarized about 0:19:49.156 --> 0:19:51.876 the more like the tactical side of it. I would really, 0:19:51.916 --> 0:19:55.436 of course recommend to work with very modern tools, but 0:19:55.596 --> 0:20:00.196 also more traditional tools. Really to go out there to 0:20:00.196 --> 0:20:03.956 together with people, to discuss with people, to get like 0:20:04.276 --> 0:20:08.676 a real human contact, you know, because that's what I 0:20:08.796 --> 0:20:11.036 at least this is my experience. You can have the 0:20:11.116 --> 0:20:16.276 most evil troll who you know, who texts you on 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:20.236 social media, but once you meet him, usually you you'll 0:20:20.276 --> 0:20:24.116 find a common ground and you can humanly discuss about things. 0:20:24.196 --> 0:20:27.916 So meet people in real life. That's another piece of advice. Yeah, 0:20:27.956 --> 0:20:30.596 what about what kinds of tools do you use? What 0:20:30.796 --> 0:20:34.116 kinds of messaging? So of course I mean you always 0:20:34.116 --> 0:20:36.836 go with the newest strengths. So if you if it 0:20:36.956 --> 0:20:40.076 is Instagram, it's Instagram. If it's Twitter, it's Twitter, and 0:20:40.316 --> 0:20:43.316 you can. The most important is that you somehow manage 0:20:43.356 --> 0:20:48.756 to translate your complex message, maybe your argument, into an 0:20:48.796 --> 0:20:52.556 understandable message so people can actually take it. And I'm 0:20:52.596 --> 0:20:54.756 not saying this because I think people are stupid. We 0:20:54.836 --> 0:20:56.836 have to do the work. We need to approach them 0:20:56.876 --> 0:20:59.636 and to explain it, you know, So that's thing, to 0:20:59.676 --> 0:21:02.316 explain it in a in a fast and easy way, 0:21:02.756 --> 0:21:05.356 in the ways that people find most accessible. So yeah, 0:21:05.356 --> 0:21:08.996 and whatever it is, commuter tabloids, right or internet me 0:21:09.196 --> 0:21:12.276 and maybe even a fun way. Right. You mentioned the memes, 0:21:12.916 --> 0:21:16.316 the short videos, something which is fun that people love 0:21:16.396 --> 0:21:18.836 to look. I mean people love to look cat videos, 0:21:18.876 --> 0:21:22.076 so and they are only twenty seconds long, so we 0:21:22.276 --> 0:21:25.916 you know, that's do you make cat videos? We already 0:21:25.956 --> 0:21:29.876 worked with cat videos. Yes. Is there somebody who inspired you? 0:21:30.156 --> 0:21:33.596 The most inspiring figures were always resistant fighters, for example, 0:21:34.036 --> 0:21:38.756 who fought the fishist regimes in the twentieth century. That's 0:21:38.756 --> 0:21:40.836 why I do what I do. I don't want us 0:21:40.836 --> 0:21:45.156 to go that far because we've seen what human beings 0:21:45.196 --> 0:21:47.956 can do to our society to meet start at a 0:21:47.956 --> 0:21:50.676 different point where we really need to figure out what 0:21:50.756 --> 0:21:53.116 are the basic elements of a society. And to me, 0:21:53.236 --> 0:21:57.636 this really is personal contact. This is neighborhood, this is family. 0:21:57.916 --> 0:22:02.036 Maybe this is just some close relationship to other individuals 0:22:02.036 --> 0:22:05.036 which are not only like minded. Maybe I think this 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:09.276 is something that has changed a lot, at least how 0:22:09.316 --> 0:22:11.876 I perceive it, and we should really make sure that 0:22:12.796 --> 0:22:16.996 we reach out to people who have a different mindset 0:22:17.076 --> 0:22:23.196 or different vision of the future. Flavia Kleiner is the 0:22:23.236 --> 0:22:27.356 co founder of Operation Libero, an organization that promotes liberal 0:22:27.396 --> 0:22:32.116 patriotism and fights populism in Switzerland. Next week, Solvable is 0:22:32.156 --> 0:22:36.036 taking the week off. We're going to be focused on voting. 0:22:36.916 --> 0:22:40.316 We're hoping it will be among the highest turnout elections 0:22:40.396 --> 0:22:45.316 ever through mail in voting, in person voting or early voting, 0:22:45.396 --> 0:22:49.476 and drop off balloting. Listen to Deep Background and other 0:22:49.556 --> 0:22:54.236 Pushkin shows to hear immediate discussion after the election of 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:56.796 what it all means. Solvable is brought to you by 0:22:56.836 --> 0:23:00.636 Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by Camil Baptista. The 0:23:00.716 --> 0:23:04.436 senior producer is Jocelyn Frank, Catherine Girardot is our managing 0:23:04.476 --> 0:23:08.716 producer and our executive producer Via Lobell. Special thanks to 0:23:08.756 --> 0:23:12.836 Heather Sane, Eric Sandler, Carle Migliori and Cadijia Holland. I'm 0:23:12.916 --> 0:23:13.796 Jacob Weisberg.