1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:26,236 Speaker 1: Bushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. Back in twenty nineteen, 2 00:00:26,276 --> 00:00:29,556 Speaker 1: my co host Anna Applewam interviewed a Swiss history student, 3 00:00:29,956 --> 00:00:34,756 Speaker 1: then twenty eight year old Flavia Kleiner. My solvable is 4 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:38,756 Speaker 1: to build a political home for people who want to 5 00:00:38,756 --> 00:00:43,196 Speaker 1: defend our liberal order against writing populists as well. In 6 00:00:43,236 --> 00:00:47,356 Speaker 1: Switzerland as well as in other countries, populous tend to 7 00:00:47,396 --> 00:00:50,956 Speaker 1: frame politics as a battle between the virtuous ordinary masses 8 00:00:50,996 --> 00:00:54,316 Speaker 1: and the corrupt elite. They demand that the will of 9 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:58,396 Speaker 1: the people should always win, and that sounds pretty reasonable, 10 00:00:58,436 --> 00:01:04,116 Speaker 1: but in reality, many populous movements have actually targeted the poor, immigrants, women, 11 00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:08,876 Speaker 1: religious minorities and others to create an US against them dynamic. 12 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:13,436 Speaker 1: Those divisions can make it harder to unify around local, national, 13 00:01:13,476 --> 00:01:17,476 Speaker 1: and global goals like fighting poverty and disease and banding 14 00:01:17,516 --> 00:01:20,996 Speaker 1: together to face our climate crisis. Does this all feel 15 00:01:21,076 --> 00:01:24,556 Speaker 1: uncomfortably familiar and close to home. I wish I could 16 00:01:24,556 --> 00:01:27,676 Speaker 1: say the populism had decreased around the world since our 17 00:01:27,716 --> 00:01:31,516 Speaker 1: interview with Kleiner first aired last year, but it's the opposite. 18 00:01:32,236 --> 00:01:35,476 Speaker 1: Listening again, I was struck by just how encouraging it 19 00:01:35,516 --> 00:01:39,676 Speaker 1: is to hear about Kleiner's winning strategies. Flavia Cliner is 20 00:01:39,716 --> 00:01:43,516 Speaker 1: the co founder of Operation Libero, and just last month, 21 00:01:43,716 --> 00:01:49,956 Speaker 1: her organization helped defeat yet another populist xenophobic referendum. Cliner's 22 00:01:50,036 --> 00:01:53,956 Speaker 1: insights and optimism feel especially meaningful as we approach our 23 00:01:53,996 --> 00:02:00,116 Speaker 1: own divisive national elections here in the United States. Here's 24 00:02:00,116 --> 00:02:04,556 Speaker 1: her conversation with my co host Anne Appleball. You a 25 00:02:04,556 --> 00:02:08,236 Speaker 1: few years ago identified what you felt to be a 26 00:02:08,356 --> 00:02:13,036 Speaker 1: very deep problem in your country. Can you describe what 27 00:02:13,076 --> 00:02:16,196 Speaker 1: it is and how did you first recognize it? So 28 00:02:16,316 --> 00:02:20,076 Speaker 1: actually goes back to well by date of birth. Nearly 29 00:02:20,156 --> 00:02:23,276 Speaker 1: it was a ninety two there was a vote on 30 00:02:23,356 --> 00:02:27,516 Speaker 1: Switzerland joining or not joining the European Commercial Area or 31 00:02:27,556 --> 00:02:32,476 Speaker 1: economic European Economic Area. The EA and the Swiss refused that, 32 00:02:33,156 --> 00:02:37,476 Speaker 1: and that was actually the starting point of incredible career 33 00:02:37,796 --> 00:02:41,916 Speaker 1: of a party called the Swiss People's Party here, which 34 00:02:42,196 --> 00:02:45,676 Speaker 1: is which happened to turn from a really conservative party 35 00:02:46,076 --> 00:02:51,276 Speaker 1: into a rather writing populist party as well. And Christophe Blojo, 36 00:02:51,436 --> 00:02:56,796 Speaker 1: he is a leader, the well known personality of this party, 37 00:02:56,996 --> 00:03:00,676 Speaker 1: saying that he has tailor made suits but which actually 38 00:03:00,716 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 1: don't really fit on the shoulder, so he would pretend 39 00:03:03,716 --> 00:03:06,476 Speaker 1: to be one of you know, the people, but actually 40 00:03:06,476 --> 00:03:09,116 Speaker 1: he's a billionaire. He's super rich, one of the richest 41 00:03:09,156 --> 00:03:12,516 Speaker 1: people in Switzerland. He runs this party and he finances 42 00:03:12,556 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 1: this party mostly, and so that was basically the start 43 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 1: of this career of the party. So the problem you 44 00:03:20,196 --> 00:03:24,596 Speaker 1: identified is the problem of Swiss populism. You identified a 45 00:03:24,636 --> 00:03:27,676 Speaker 1: particular event and it was the referendum on mass migration. 46 00:03:27,716 --> 00:03:31,596 Speaker 1: Can you explain what's the significance of referendums in Switzerland 47 00:03:31,636 --> 00:03:34,356 Speaker 1: and why this one in particular affected you. The SPAPE 48 00:03:34,676 --> 00:03:38,956 Speaker 1: came up with what we call a popular initiative, which 49 00:03:39,036 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 1: is a direct democratic proposal to the Swiss people that 50 00:03:43,636 --> 00:03:46,956 Speaker 1: we vote on, and it means that you need to 51 00:03:46,996 --> 00:03:52,236 Speaker 1: collect one hundred thousand signatures on a specific legal text, 52 00:03:52,716 --> 00:03:57,276 Speaker 1: which then, if it is accepted, is being introduced into 53 00:03:57,276 --> 00:04:00,476 Speaker 1: our constitution. So it's such just some law, you know, 54 00:04:00,636 --> 00:04:05,116 Speaker 1: it's changing our constitution. So the writing populists as well 55 00:04:05,156 --> 00:04:09,556 Speaker 1: as other parties misuse this tool today as a marketing 56 00:04:09,556 --> 00:04:13,076 Speaker 1: tool for their issues. They come up with this just 57 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:16,996 Speaker 1: right before election so they can campaign on a specific issue. 58 00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:20,316 Speaker 1: But the originally this right was given to minorities which 59 00:04:20,316 --> 00:04:24,236 Speaker 1: would never be represented in Parliament, and through this initiative 60 00:04:24,316 --> 00:04:27,596 Speaker 1: they could introduce law and come up with issues which 61 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:31,156 Speaker 1: matter to them. And so that particular event was in 62 00:04:31,356 --> 00:04:34,596 Speaker 1: February twenty fourteen. But we voted on the so called 63 00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:38,556 Speaker 1: mass immigration initiative. Already from the name, you can see 64 00:04:38,556 --> 00:04:42,076 Speaker 1: that it comes up. It brings up a certain framing 65 00:04:42,476 --> 00:04:46,156 Speaker 1: and the ASPHAPE wanted to limit the number of people 66 00:04:46,236 --> 00:04:50,796 Speaker 1: coming to Switzerland in the free movement of People agreement 67 00:04:50,996 --> 00:04:54,516 Speaker 1: that we have with the European Union. Switzerland is not 68 00:04:54,596 --> 00:04:56,836 Speaker 1: a member of the European Union, but we have bilateral 69 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:59,516 Speaker 1: treaties and the ASPHAPA is that there are just too 70 00:04:59,556 --> 00:05:03,796 Speaker 1: many people coming to Switzerland every year. And they won, Yeah, 71 00:05:04,036 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: by a really close marching of fifty point three percent. 72 00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:10,156 Speaker 1: It was only twenty thousand votes made a difference. And 73 00:05:10,196 --> 00:05:12,476 Speaker 1: so you said to yourself, how do we stop this? 74 00:05:12,596 --> 00:05:14,516 Speaker 1: And then you went through a process of trying to 75 00:05:14,556 --> 00:05:17,636 Speaker 1: think how do we push back against this kind of language. Yeah, 76 00:05:17,636 --> 00:05:20,956 Speaker 1: the thing was we didn't actually recognize ourselves in the 77 00:05:20,996 --> 00:05:24,076 Speaker 1: country that we grew up in because we saw Switzerland 78 00:05:24,076 --> 00:05:29,236 Speaker 1: as a you know, cosmopol international country, open and so on. 79 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:32,316 Speaker 1: And nobody really expected this to happen. It was like 80 00:05:32,316 --> 00:05:35,116 Speaker 1: our Brexit moment. You know what, we said, Okay, that's 81 00:05:35,116 --> 00:05:36,956 Speaker 1: not the country that we want to live in. We 82 00:05:37,036 --> 00:05:38,916 Speaker 1: want to change this. We want to have a brighter 83 00:05:38,996 --> 00:05:42,396 Speaker 1: future and a brighter vision for what Twittererland can be. 84 00:05:42,916 --> 00:05:46,956 Speaker 1: But the populist argument had already infected all the other parties. 85 00:05:46,956 --> 00:05:49,556 Speaker 1: In other words, everybody began saying and so it's on. Well, 86 00:05:49,596 --> 00:05:51,876 Speaker 1: actually maybe it's true, maybe there are too many people here, 87 00:05:51,956 --> 00:05:55,516 Speaker 1: Maybe we need stronger borders, maybe we need greater sovereignty. 88 00:05:55,676 --> 00:05:58,276 Speaker 1: So how do you push back against that kind of 89 00:05:58,676 --> 00:06:01,756 Speaker 1: you know, this change of social mood. Basically, what we 90 00:06:01,796 --> 00:06:05,236 Speaker 1: saw is that we want to promote Switzerland regarding to 91 00:06:05,316 --> 00:06:08,356 Speaker 1: the future. We said, Switzerland is the land of opportunity 92 00:06:08,396 --> 00:06:11,356 Speaker 1: of the twenty century. We're not a kind of open 93 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:14,796 Speaker 1: air museum where nothing should ever change. And that's also 94 00:06:14,836 --> 00:06:16,996 Speaker 1: the country we want to live in two thousand and fifty. 95 00:06:17,036 --> 00:06:19,596 Speaker 1: We're actually looking forward to the year two thousand. So 96 00:06:20,196 --> 00:06:23,236 Speaker 1: you began reframing the conversation. But actually you said to 97 00:06:23,236 --> 00:06:26,956 Speaker 1: me earlier, you thought first about creating a political party, 98 00:06:26,996 --> 00:06:28,876 Speaker 1: and then you decided that wasn't the way to go right. 99 00:06:29,116 --> 00:06:31,716 Speaker 1: So for us, I mean, of course we're super disappointed 100 00:06:31,716 --> 00:06:34,516 Speaker 1: about all the other parties. It just overtook the narration 101 00:06:34,596 --> 00:06:36,916 Speaker 1: of the SPA pay of there are too many people 102 00:06:36,956 --> 00:06:40,516 Speaker 1: in our trains, there are too many people renting apartments here. 103 00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 1: First we thought, okay, we have to just make a 104 00:06:43,396 --> 00:06:46,596 Speaker 1: new party because we don't we cannot identify with any 105 00:06:46,636 --> 00:06:49,396 Speaker 1: other we don't have a political home. But then we 106 00:06:49,516 --> 00:06:51,836 Speaker 1: realized that in the Swiss political system it doesn't really 107 00:06:51,876 --> 00:06:53,996 Speaker 1: make sense to create a new party. But instead we 108 00:06:54,116 --> 00:07:00,596 Speaker 1: decided to create an overpartisan movement, which actually goes against 109 00:07:00,636 --> 00:07:05,116 Speaker 1: this tendency of polarization. But we wanted to unite the 110 00:07:05,316 --> 00:07:09,396 Speaker 1: progressive liberal minds in this country, and also we wanted 111 00:07:09,436 --> 00:07:12,556 Speaker 1: to link us somehow back to the tradition of eighteen 112 00:07:12,636 --> 00:07:16,036 Speaker 1: forty eight, which was the foundation of the liberal stat 113 00:07:16,076 --> 00:07:20,676 Speaker 1: of Switzerland. And we introduced ourselves with our manifesto as 114 00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:23,756 Speaker 1: the children of eighteen forty eight, So trying to link 115 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 1: these liberal ideas back to the past, so they're part 116 00:07:26,436 --> 00:07:28,316 Speaker 1: of Swiss history and they don't seem like some kind 117 00:07:28,356 --> 00:07:31,156 Speaker 1: of foreign import. No. Absolutely, and even more, it was 118 00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:35,676 Speaker 1: a really patriotic but emancipated, patriotic understanding of where we 119 00:07:35,716 --> 00:07:38,836 Speaker 1: come from. The founding fathers of our country were the 120 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:42,756 Speaker 1: Liberals in eighteen forty eight, and we totally identify with 121 00:07:43,236 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 1: their mindset of what it means to be a modern Switzerland. 122 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:50,076 Speaker 1: But then, how did you actually change people's minds? How 123 00:07:50,076 --> 00:07:52,636 Speaker 1: did you begin arguing this? I mean, you're a group 124 00:07:52,676 --> 00:07:56,836 Speaker 1: of students at the university. You know what were actually 125 00:07:56,836 --> 00:07:59,276 Speaker 1: the tools that you used? Now I jumped forward to 126 00:07:59,876 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 1: October twenty fifteen, that was like one and a half 127 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:07,196 Speaker 1: year after the whole thing happened, and we launched our organization, 128 00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:11,116 Speaker 1: our movement. We had actions in Switzerland in twenty fifteen, 129 00:08:11,356 --> 00:08:14,116 Speaker 1: and that was a moment where again the sval Pay 130 00:08:14,276 --> 00:08:17,876 Speaker 1: the writing Popputists, became the strongest party in Switzerland with 131 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:22,356 Speaker 1: twenty nine percent, okay, twenty nine percent of our parliament. 132 00:08:22,716 --> 00:08:25,036 Speaker 1: And so again the other party said, oh, come on, 133 00:08:25,196 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 1: which is we can't you know, we have nothing to 134 00:08:28,596 --> 00:08:32,716 Speaker 1: help us against this super strong party. And then only 135 00:08:32,756 --> 00:08:37,156 Speaker 1: one month after the government said okay, guys, in three 136 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 1: months time, we're going to vote on the so called 137 00:08:40,876 --> 00:08:44,916 Speaker 1: expulsion of criminal foreigners initiative. That was an initiative which 138 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:48,676 Speaker 1: wanted to expel criminal foreigners, even for minor in frictions 139 00:08:48,676 --> 00:08:52,756 Speaker 1: of law, for example driving two times too fast within 140 00:08:52,836 --> 00:08:55,916 Speaker 1: ten years, which actually happens to everybody, you know. The 141 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:58,436 Speaker 1: other party said, oh no, come on, this is again 142 00:08:58,556 --> 00:09:04,036 Speaker 1: about criminals and then foreigners, and it's driven by the SVAPAI, 143 00:09:04,196 --> 00:09:07,956 Speaker 1: this popular initiative. We have no chance. Rather we hide 144 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:11,956 Speaker 1: and let it pass instead of losing again energy and 145 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:15,076 Speaker 1: time and anyway, we just lost the elections. That was 146 00:09:15,116 --> 00:09:17,476 Speaker 1: a moment where we somehow came up and said, okay, 147 00:09:17,836 --> 00:09:19,796 Speaker 1: we don't want to live in a country where there's 148 00:09:19,836 --> 00:09:22,716 Speaker 1: a kind of two tire legal system. You have to 149 00:09:22,756 --> 00:09:25,916 Speaker 1: know that in Switzerland, twenty five percent of the population 150 00:09:26,076 --> 00:09:29,636 Speaker 1: don't have a Swiss passport. They might live here for generations. 151 00:09:29,916 --> 00:09:31,956 Speaker 1: They don't have a genuine link to the country that 152 00:09:32,036 --> 00:09:35,756 Speaker 1: they come from, but they would have been maybe victims 153 00:09:35,796 --> 00:09:39,716 Speaker 1: of that new law introduced into our constitution. So that 154 00:09:39,876 --> 00:09:42,276 Speaker 1: was a moment where we somehow stood up and said, okay, 155 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:45,996 Speaker 1: we don't We're definitely not gonna make the gift to 156 00:09:46,076 --> 00:09:50,276 Speaker 1: the writing populace and defend criminal foreigners because then you 157 00:09:50,276 --> 00:09:53,756 Speaker 1: would anyway lose. So we realized that if we want 158 00:09:53,836 --> 00:09:58,076 Speaker 1: to convince the conservative majority in Switzerland, we need to 159 00:09:58,116 --> 00:10:01,476 Speaker 1: speak about something that matters to them as well, because 160 00:10:01,476 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: it's so super easy what the Writing Populace wanted to do. 161 00:10:05,196 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 1: They wanted to ask the people and take, guys, this 162 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:10,636 Speaker 1: is your chance to expel crim foreigners from that country. 163 00:10:10,956 --> 00:10:12,636 Speaker 1: Why don't you just say yes? And who's going to 164 00:10:12,676 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 1: disagree with that? Right? And so we said instead, guys, 165 00:10:15,836 --> 00:10:20,196 Speaker 1: this is actually going against the fundamental principles of our constitution, 166 00:10:20,516 --> 00:10:24,956 Speaker 1: against rule of law, against principle of proportionality, which is 167 00:10:24,996 --> 00:10:28,636 Speaker 1: super important to judges, because actually this law wanted to 168 00:10:29,036 --> 00:10:33,316 Speaker 1: limit and restrict the ability ability of judges to actually 169 00:10:33,316 --> 00:10:37,036 Speaker 1: look at the individual case and instead introduce a kind 170 00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:40,476 Speaker 1: of automatism to our legal system. I think that was 171 00:10:40,556 --> 00:10:45,236 Speaker 1: crucial because we decided that we somehow want to conquer 172 00:10:45,636 --> 00:10:50,396 Speaker 1: the sovereignty of interpretation from the Writing Populists over their 173 00:10:50,436 --> 00:10:53,676 Speaker 1: initiative through this. And that was actually the biggest compliment 174 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: that the party leader of the Writing Populists made me 175 00:10:57,036 --> 00:10:59,716 Speaker 1: was when he said after the election, after the whole campaign, 176 00:10:59,716 --> 00:11:01,916 Speaker 1: he said, I didn't know what happened, but at sometimes, 177 00:11:02,116 --> 00:11:04,236 Speaker 1: at some point we only spoke about rule of law, 178 00:11:04,316 --> 00:11:07,356 Speaker 1: and that was actually framing big success right that we had. 179 00:11:07,556 --> 00:11:11,076 Speaker 1: So you framed the idea, but what were the tactics 180 00:11:11,116 --> 00:11:13,836 Speaker 1: that you used. The most important tactics, I think is 181 00:11:13,836 --> 00:11:17,596 Speaker 1: really to find a popular language to what I just described, 182 00:11:17,716 --> 00:11:22,116 Speaker 1: which seems really abstract of course argument. We managed to 183 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:26,756 Speaker 1: translate it into a narrative, something tangible to people. And 184 00:11:26,796 --> 00:11:29,676 Speaker 1: what we did is actually we spoke about modern Helvetia. 185 00:11:29,876 --> 00:11:33,476 Speaker 1: She's like an allegorical figure which represents all the Swiss values. 186 00:11:33,476 --> 00:11:35,636 Speaker 1: You you find her on our coins and so on, 187 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:39,676 Speaker 1: and this was referred to her. She's the emancipated figure 188 00:11:39,716 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 1: which represents the values of eighteen forty eight, so the 189 00:11:43,636 --> 00:11:48,036 Speaker 1: liberal institutions. And we said she would be smashed by 190 00:11:48,196 --> 00:11:53,636 Speaker 1: what we translated as a metaphor at this initiative. She 191 00:11:53,676 --> 00:11:56,716 Speaker 1: will be smashed by a wrecking ball, this statue of 192 00:11:56,876 --> 00:12:00,356 Speaker 1: modern helvets that will be wrecked. And you did memes 193 00:12:00,396 --> 00:12:03,956 Speaker 1: of that, yeah, exactly, and the video and so on afterwards. 194 00:12:04,036 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 1: That's a special group or entity of volunteers we have. 195 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:11,596 Speaker 1: They're called online warriors. They basically are really active on 196 00:12:11,636 --> 00:12:16,196 Speaker 1: social media and they're basically fighting back trolls and like 197 00:12:16,276 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 1: fake news, which are spread online. They actually go there 198 00:12:19,796 --> 00:12:23,156 Speaker 1: and engage the trolls into a debate, and they do 199 00:12:23,196 --> 00:12:27,516 Speaker 1: it under their personal private account as citizens online with 200 00:12:27,596 --> 00:12:30,516 Speaker 1: their real names, right, they debate there and what we 201 00:12:30,596 --> 00:12:33,796 Speaker 1: see actually and that's the fantastic effect of it, that 202 00:12:33,876 --> 00:12:37,796 Speaker 1: we can actually change debates online and that we can 203 00:12:37,796 --> 00:12:41,356 Speaker 1: effect also the level of you know, factfulness and so on. 204 00:12:41,436 --> 00:12:44,276 Speaker 1: So that's a really that's a really important change that 205 00:12:44,356 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 1: we can see. I really think you can be popular 206 00:12:47,076 --> 00:12:51,196 Speaker 1: without being populistic, you know, and you can. Actually you 207 00:12:51,276 --> 00:12:53,916 Speaker 1: need to find ways in this media society that we 208 00:12:53,956 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 1: live in. You need to find ways to say things easier. 209 00:12:57,076 --> 00:12:59,876 Speaker 1: To give you another example, if we can pain we 210 00:13:00,036 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 1: don't need to go to the noyetial Titung, which is 211 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:07,356 Speaker 1: like the liberal leading newspaper that any anyway people read 212 00:13:07,396 --> 00:13:10,156 Speaker 1: too who are convinced already, you know, But we need 213 00:13:10,196 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 1: to go to the Tontig Minutant twenty minutes, which is 214 00:13:12,876 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: a newspaper that people read every day a quarter of 215 00:13:15,956 --> 00:13:18,916 Speaker 1: the Swiss population when they commute. If you get to 216 00:13:18,996 --> 00:13:22,196 Speaker 1: this newspaper, which is really short, really easy and so on, 217 00:13:22,556 --> 00:13:24,796 Speaker 1: you need to be able to say your message in 218 00:13:24,836 --> 00:13:28,876 Speaker 1: one picture and five words. That's all you get, one picture, 219 00:13:29,116 --> 00:13:30,996 Speaker 1: five words. Can you give me an example of the 220 00:13:31,076 --> 00:13:34,556 Speaker 1: campaign that you won, because you've now won several campaigns, 221 00:13:34,636 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 1: several referendum campaigns. Right, So the one I was mentioning 222 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:40,756 Speaker 1: about the expulsion of criminal foreigners, that was really unexpected 223 00:13:40,796 --> 00:13:43,716 Speaker 1: because we turned from sixty six percent in the first 224 00:13:43,716 --> 00:13:47,076 Speaker 1: polls who were in favor of this initiative, we turn 225 00:13:47,116 --> 00:13:50,476 Speaker 1: it into sixty percent refusing it. And that was a 226 00:13:50,596 --> 00:13:54,636 Speaker 1: super important moment in Switzerland. I remember that day after 227 00:13:54,676 --> 00:13:57,236 Speaker 1: the vote when I walked through Swiss streets and you 228 00:13:57,276 --> 00:14:00,756 Speaker 1: could really feel how people felt relieved that that was 229 00:14:00,796 --> 00:14:03,716 Speaker 1: for the first time that the seventy percent that don't 230 00:14:03,796 --> 00:14:06,996 Speaker 1: vote the SPA PAY, that didn't vote SA PAY four 231 00:14:07,036 --> 00:14:10,116 Speaker 1: months before in the elections, that they realize that they're 232 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:13,716 Speaker 1: actually the big majority. Right that even though the writing 233 00:14:13,756 --> 00:14:17,876 Speaker 1: puppeties managed to dominate the public discourse for years with 234 00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:22,716 Speaker 1: their initiatives, with their propaganda, I must say by setting 235 00:14:22,796 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 1: the themes that all the other parties need to discuss about. 236 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:29,196 Speaker 1: Because they're just the richest party, and because they're the 237 00:14:29,236 --> 00:14:31,636 Speaker 1: best organized party, we must say, and because they are 238 00:14:31,636 --> 00:14:34,156 Speaker 1: the ones who know how to communicate in media society. 239 00:14:34,476 --> 00:14:37,476 Speaker 1: All of a sudden that was someone who could counter this, 240 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:40,236 Speaker 1: and we felt that we are the seventy percent. And 241 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 1: that was such an important moment in Switzerland where we 242 00:14:43,316 --> 00:14:48,636 Speaker 1: managed to break this sovereignty of interpretation over what Switzerland 243 00:14:48,756 --> 00:14:51,516 Speaker 1: is and what Switzerland could be. Is there a longer 244 00:14:51,596 --> 00:14:54,996 Speaker 1: term goal? Is that right now you're fighting referendum by referendum, 245 00:14:55,036 --> 00:14:57,876 Speaker 1: but what happens next, So definitely that's only the first step. 246 00:14:58,036 --> 00:15:00,956 Speaker 1: You know, that's important to know about Switzerland. When you 247 00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,636 Speaker 1: win referend us, then you gain street credibility. You're the 248 00:15:04,676 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: one who manages to convince the majority of the Swiss 249 00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:12,756 Speaker 1: and so through this you gain a certain importance in 250 00:15:12,796 --> 00:15:16,476 Speaker 1: the public discourse. But of course there we still didn't 251 00:15:16,516 --> 00:15:19,716 Speaker 1: actually affect elections because that's where laws are made in 252 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: the parliament. That's where we see that we still need 253 00:15:21,716 --> 00:15:25,476 Speaker 1: to improve our influence so that because by now we 254 00:15:25,596 --> 00:15:28,836 Speaker 1: only always get in in the last possible moment, you know, 255 00:15:28,956 --> 00:15:34,996 Speaker 1: to somehow prevent Switzerland from accepting some initiative. But what 256 00:15:35,116 --> 00:15:37,596 Speaker 1: we actually want is to go over from this reactive 257 00:15:37,676 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 1: mode into a more active mode. It comes down to 258 00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:43,036 Speaker 1: this one thing that I would say, how do we 259 00:15:43,116 --> 00:15:47,596 Speaker 1: manage that people see the real need of institutions that 260 00:15:47,756 --> 00:15:51,636 Speaker 1: guarantee their freedom. How do we make sure that hope 261 00:15:51,716 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 1: is an emotion just as strong as fear, because that's 262 00:15:55,156 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 1: what I see is the biggest problem these days, that 263 00:15:57,596 --> 00:16:00,636 Speaker 1: of course fear is a super powerful tool, but what 264 00:16:00,796 --> 00:16:03,436 Speaker 1: we need and that was always a challenge to the rules. 265 00:16:03,556 --> 00:16:06,316 Speaker 1: The future is unknown, So how can we promise a 266 00:16:06,436 --> 00:16:09,836 Speaker 1: vision or like a future where people understand where they 267 00:16:09,836 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: want to go to where they feel at home, Because 268 00:16:13,196 --> 00:16:17,476 Speaker 1: that was always, you know, part of the emancipational process, 269 00:16:17,516 --> 00:16:22,876 Speaker 1: that there was something tangible close by, something which seemed 270 00:16:22,916 --> 00:16:26,436 Speaker 1: to be an improvement of the actual situation. And in 271 00:16:26,476 --> 00:16:30,116 Speaker 1: a globalized world now where many values seem under pressure, 272 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: I see that people aren't that sure whether the future 273 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:36,956 Speaker 1: will be brighter or will be more positive than it 274 00:16:37,036 --> 00:16:39,956 Speaker 1: is today. And that's that's what I mean also by 275 00:16:40,036 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: the mood or like the atmosphere that I want to 276 00:16:43,276 --> 00:16:47,196 Speaker 1: touch her to change here in Switzerland, that people somehow 277 00:16:47,636 --> 00:16:51,516 Speaker 1: are confident about the future bringing them a better life, 278 00:16:51,516 --> 00:16:53,876 Speaker 1: that they're looking forward to the year twenty and fifty 279 00:16:53,876 --> 00:16:56,676 Speaker 1: where they want to live with their families and good 280 00:16:56,756 --> 00:17:01,356 Speaker 1: jobs in this country. How can this model help others? 281 00:17:01,796 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 1: And you know you've you've created a movement inside Switzerland. 282 00:17:04,836 --> 00:17:07,956 Speaker 1: It's got it deals with a very specific form of 283 00:17:07,996 --> 00:17:11,036 Speaker 1: Swiss politics, name these referenda that you have periodically, and 284 00:17:11,076 --> 00:17:14,156 Speaker 1: you've you've organized yourself around these referenda. But do you 285 00:17:14,196 --> 00:17:16,436 Speaker 1: think there's a way that your way of thinking, in 286 00:17:16,476 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 1: your way of operating could work in other places? I think? 287 00:17:19,756 --> 00:17:21,716 Speaker 1: I mean if I look back on how we started, 288 00:17:21,836 --> 00:17:24,756 Speaker 1: and you know, we were total amateurs. We had no 289 00:17:24,836 --> 00:17:27,716 Speaker 1: clue about what we were actually doing right, but there 290 00:17:27,836 --> 00:17:31,516 Speaker 1: was this this passion, this will of we want to 291 00:17:31,556 --> 00:17:35,596 Speaker 1: tackle the problem. And that's really a question of you know, 292 00:17:35,676 --> 00:17:39,516 Speaker 1: what's your attitude? You know, and here I maybe I 293 00:17:39,556 --> 00:17:43,236 Speaker 1: always say you need this kind of reality distortion field 294 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:45,756 Speaker 1: of I don't know if you're fans of Star Trek, 295 00:17:45,836 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: but there's La menagerie. I mean, imagine the Safe was 296 00:17:49,836 --> 00:17:52,236 Speaker 1: the strongest party in our country. That's not as it 297 00:17:52,316 --> 00:17:56,276 Speaker 1: is in other countries these days. Oftentimes they are still smaller, 298 00:17:56,636 --> 00:18:00,756 Speaker 1: maybe even more writing populous parties. Okay, but in Switzerland 299 00:18:00,756 --> 00:18:03,196 Speaker 1: take the dominant force for the twenty five years that 300 00:18:03,276 --> 00:18:05,436 Speaker 1: I grew up in. You know, I have no I 301 00:18:05,876 --> 00:18:08,396 Speaker 1: don't know any other system. I don't even find it brave, 302 00:18:08,476 --> 00:18:11,476 Speaker 1: but we just had to imagine a different system. You 303 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:14,836 Speaker 1: need to believe in what you do and where you 304 00:18:14,876 --> 00:18:16,956 Speaker 1: want to go. And this doesn't mean that you have 305 00:18:16,996 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: to believe in your own propaganda. That's the worst you 306 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:21,836 Speaker 1: can do. But you need to be really convinced by 307 00:18:22,836 --> 00:18:25,116 Speaker 1: where you want to go. And that brings me back 308 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:28,236 Speaker 1: to this vision that you need for your country, where 309 00:18:28,276 --> 00:18:30,076 Speaker 1: you want to go to, and I think that's really 310 00:18:30,116 --> 00:18:34,436 Speaker 1: what we're lacking off in many countries that politically just 311 00:18:34,636 --> 00:18:38,876 Speaker 1: don't really provide a vision where people feel that they 312 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:40,876 Speaker 1: can feel at home there. So there's a there's a 313 00:18:40,956 --> 00:18:42,636 Speaker 1: kind of template. You know, this is what you do? 314 00:18:42,716 --> 00:18:46,236 Speaker 1: Could you could you name five things that people wanting 315 00:18:46,276 --> 00:18:49,156 Speaker 1: to create a similar kind of movement should do. What 316 00:18:49,196 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 1: I find interesting is to think about likely and unlikely allies. 317 00:18:52,596 --> 00:18:55,196 Speaker 1: You know, who is out there, who do you know, 318 00:18:55,436 --> 00:18:57,596 Speaker 1: who do you don't know? And with whom could you 319 00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 1: collaborate in this mission? You know, that's maybe an interesting 320 00:19:02,396 --> 00:19:07,236 Speaker 1: strategically including allies, for example, conservative allies. Yeah, exactly, because 321 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:10,476 Speaker 1: you know you might be surprised to some people. But 322 00:19:11,236 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: get out there, talk to people, get a common understanding 323 00:19:14,356 --> 00:19:16,356 Speaker 1: about what really matters you, and that when I mean 324 00:19:16,636 --> 00:19:19,916 Speaker 1: what really matters to you. I also want to stress 325 00:19:19,956 --> 00:19:24,956 Speaker 1: the difference between civil society organizations and their possibility to 326 00:19:26,036 --> 00:19:30,436 Speaker 1: actually stress what unites us, you know, not as much 327 00:19:30,476 --> 00:19:33,836 Speaker 1: as parties. Parties have to stress what divides us right 328 00:19:34,436 --> 00:19:37,676 Speaker 1: for their political means. Civil society organization we can actually 329 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:40,956 Speaker 1: stress what unites us, what kind of values we want 330 00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:43,956 Speaker 1: to strengthen in our society, and how we want to 331 00:19:44,556 --> 00:19:49,156 Speaker 1: build a closer society in a way less polarized about 332 00:19:49,156 --> 00:19:51,876 Speaker 1: the more like the tactical side of it. I would really, 333 00:19:51,916 --> 00:19:55,436 Speaker 1: of course recommend to work with very modern tools, but 334 00:19:55,596 --> 00:20:00,196 Speaker 1: also more traditional tools. Really to go out there to 335 00:20:00,196 --> 00:20:03,956 Speaker 1: together with people, to discuss with people, to get like 336 00:20:04,276 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 1: a real human contact, you know, because that's what I 337 00:20:08,796 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: at least this is my experience. You can have the 338 00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:16,276 Speaker 1: most evil troll who you know, who texts you on 339 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:20,236 Speaker 1: social media, but once you meet him, usually you you'll 340 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:24,116 Speaker 1: find a common ground and you can humanly discuss about things. 341 00:20:24,196 --> 00:20:27,916 Speaker 1: So meet people in real life. That's another piece of advice. Yeah, 342 00:20:27,956 --> 00:20:30,596 Speaker 1: what about what kinds of tools do you use? What 343 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:34,116 Speaker 1: kinds of messaging? So of course I mean you always 344 00:20:34,116 --> 00:20:36,836 Speaker 1: go with the newest strengths. So if you if it 345 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:40,076 Speaker 1: is Instagram, it's Instagram. If it's Twitter, it's Twitter, and 346 00:20:40,316 --> 00:20:43,316 Speaker 1: you can. The most important is that you somehow manage 347 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: to translate your complex message, maybe your argument, into an 348 00:20:48,796 --> 00:20:52,556 Speaker 1: understandable message so people can actually take it. And I'm 349 00:20:52,596 --> 00:20:54,756 Speaker 1: not saying this because I think people are stupid. We 350 00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:56,836 Speaker 1: have to do the work. We need to approach them 351 00:20:56,876 --> 00:20:59,636 Speaker 1: and to explain it, you know, So that's thing, to 352 00:20:59,676 --> 00:21:02,316 Speaker 1: explain it in a in a fast and easy way, 353 00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,356 Speaker 1: in the ways that people find most accessible. So yeah, 354 00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:08,996 Speaker 1: and whatever it is, commuter tabloids, right or internet me 355 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:12,276 Speaker 1: and maybe even a fun way. Right. You mentioned the memes, 356 00:21:12,916 --> 00:21:16,316 Speaker 1: the short videos, something which is fun that people love 357 00:21:16,396 --> 00:21:18,836 Speaker 1: to look. I mean people love to look cat videos, 358 00:21:18,876 --> 00:21:22,076 Speaker 1: so and they are only twenty seconds long, so we 359 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:25,916 Speaker 1: you know, that's do you make cat videos? We already 360 00:21:25,956 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: worked with cat videos. Yes. Is there somebody who inspired you? 361 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 1: The most inspiring figures were always resistant fighters, for example, 362 00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:38,756 Speaker 1: who fought the fishist regimes in the twentieth century. That's 363 00:21:38,756 --> 00:21:40,836 Speaker 1: why I do what I do. I don't want us 364 00:21:40,836 --> 00:21:45,156 Speaker 1: to go that far because we've seen what human beings 365 00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:47,956 Speaker 1: can do to our society to meet start at a 366 00:21:47,956 --> 00:21:50,676 Speaker 1: different point where we really need to figure out what 367 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: are the basic elements of a society. And to me, 368 00:21:53,236 --> 00:21:57,636 Speaker 1: this really is personal contact. This is neighborhood, this is family. 369 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:02,036 Speaker 1: Maybe this is just some close relationship to other individuals 370 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:05,036 Speaker 1: which are not only like minded. Maybe I think this 371 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:09,276 Speaker 1: is something that has changed a lot, at least how 372 00:22:09,316 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 1: I perceive it, and we should really make sure that 373 00:22:12,796 --> 00:22:16,996 Speaker 1: we reach out to people who have a different mindset 374 00:22:17,076 --> 00:22:23,196 Speaker 1: or different vision of the future. Flavia Kleiner is the 375 00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:27,356 Speaker 1: co founder of Operation Libero, an organization that promotes liberal 376 00:22:27,396 --> 00:22:32,116 Speaker 1: patriotism and fights populism in Switzerland. Next week, Solvable is 377 00:22:32,156 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: taking the week off. We're going to be focused on voting. 378 00:22:36,916 --> 00:22:40,316 Speaker 1: We're hoping it will be among the highest turnout elections 379 00:22:40,396 --> 00:22:45,316 Speaker 1: ever through mail in voting, in person voting or early voting, 380 00:22:45,396 --> 00:22:49,476 Speaker 1: and drop off balloting. Listen to Deep Background and other 381 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:54,236 Speaker 1: Pushkin shows to hear immediate discussion after the election of 382 00:22:54,236 --> 00:22:56,796 Speaker 1: what it all means. Solvable is brought to you by 383 00:22:56,836 --> 00:23:00,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. Our show is produced by Camil Baptista. The 384 00:23:00,716 --> 00:23:04,436 Speaker 1: senior producer is Jocelyn Frank, Catherine Girardot is our managing 385 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:08,716 Speaker 1: producer and our executive producer Via Lobell. Special thanks to 386 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:12,836 Speaker 1: Heather Sane, Eric Sandler, Carle Migliori and Cadijia Holland. I'm 387 00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:13,796 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg.