WEBVTT - My Boss is Burning Out 0:00:03.560 --> 0:00:07.200 My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything I need at 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:09.639 people and meeting? Why does my coworker keep taking credit 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.240 for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi? 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:15.720 I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:19.520 I answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.640 from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:23.840 perfume to what to do if you drink too much 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:28.840 at the company party. Let's get started. Hi, and welcome 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.640 to the show. Our first question today is from someone 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.720 who is worried that her boss is burning out. Hi, there, 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:38.599 I need some advice. Over the last nine months or so, 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:41.199 I have been slowly burning out at my job. But 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.280 that's not the problem. I am taking steps to combat 0:00:44.320 --> 0:00:46.839 my own burnout. The problem is that over this time 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:50.040 I've been watching my company add more and more work 0:00:50.120 --> 0:00:52.199 to my boss. It's like the higher ups to have 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:56.000 asked them, so what else can we burn thoughs out? 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.720 Than they do what they think of find her to 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:03.040 tie consuming projects, only to pull her off of them 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.520 midway through, essentially wasting her time. We've had three other 0:01:07.560 --> 0:01:11.280 supervisors quit. Instead of factilling their positions, the powers that 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:15.399 be just assigned the abandoned teams to my supervisor, increasing 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:18.320 her workload again. I am part of her original team 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:22.760 of seven and she's up to now direct reports, and 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:25.440 each of us on that original team wants to have 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.440 her back as much as possible. She's a stellar boss 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.520 and goes to bat for us time and time again 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.040 when we need help getting our work done or meet 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:36.360 resistance from the other departments. So my question is what 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:38.280 can I and the rest of our team do to 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:42.000 support her. I have taken on all the little projects, assignments, 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.319 and tasks she's turped out to me to lighten her load. 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.520 Is there anything else? None of us want to lose her, 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:50.880 and many of us would probably jump ship with her 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:53.760 if it ever came to that. I would really appreciate 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.720 your input here. Well, first, you're so kind to be 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:00.480 thinking about this, because being the US can be a 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:02.960 really thankless job, and not everyone would look at the 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:05.760 situation and think to have the reaction that you're having. 0:02:06.000 --> 0:02:09.680 So your boss is really lucky to have you. I 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:11.960 think the thing to know here is that there are 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:13.520 some things that you can do that will make your 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.239 boss's life more pleasant right now, probably and we'll talk 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.760 about what those are, but you aren't going to be 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:21.960 able to solve the big fundamental problem, which is her 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:25.880 workload and the way she's being managed from above. For 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:30.480 the record, having twenty five direct reports is insane. The 0:02:30.600 --> 0:02:33.640 number of direct reports that one person can handle effectively 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:38.000 is somewhere around six or seven. In some cases, maybe 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.040 we're the people being managed or doing very road work 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.720 or very independent work. It could be more, but twenty 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:49.040 five is well beyond anything that is reasonable. So the 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:51.240 fact that she is still coming across to you as 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.239 a stellar boss while managing that many people and stretch 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.680 that then is really impressive. And then you throw in 0:02:57.720 --> 0:02:59.880 all the rest of her workload because it sounds like 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:01.840 she is doing her own projects on top of all 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:06.160 of that management, and it's pretty exhausting to contemplate. So 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.560 back to you and how you can help. I think 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.760 a really important thing to realize here is that the 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.000 best thing for her to do might be to get out, 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:19.679 to leave the situation, and to find a better, more 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.200 manageable job for herself. So I don't want you to 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:26.639 think of your role as needing to figure out how 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.080 to keep her or as the best case outcome that 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:33.720 you somehow make this just bearable enough that she decides 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.360 to stay, because it might be best for her if 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:40.840 she does leave. So instead, I would focus on making 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.560 sure that she knows that you appreciate her and that 0:03:44.640 --> 0:03:47.000 you want to pitch in and help make her life easier. 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.560 Right now, however you can so, yeah, if you have 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.440 room on your own plate, volunteer to take some work 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.160 off of hers and be easy to work with. You know, 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:00.360 have your own house in order, don't let or slip 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.320 through the cracks, keep her proactively apprised about where things 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.160 stand and when you need things from her streamline. It 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:09.040 make it as fast and as easy as possible for 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.560 her to give you input or approve something or otherwise 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.760 get you what you need, because being easy to manage 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:19.920 will make her life easier. And then this is really important. 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.599 Be explicit with her about appreciating her. You said you 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:25.840 think she's a sellar boss and that she's gone to 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.400 bat for you over and over, that she helps you 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:30.720 get what you need when there's problems with other departments, 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:33.719 And I wonder does she know that you think that? 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:38.000 From what I have seen, oftentimes, when people like and 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:41.960 appreciate their managers, it doesn't always occur to them to 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:46.040 tell the manager that they think it's unneeded or that 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.120 it won't be a big deal to the manager to 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.200 hear it. But it is always a great thing to hear, 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.960 and I am onecent sure that your manager would be 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.159 really happy and really grateful to hear you say that. 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:01.880 Based on what you described about her workload, I bet 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.920 she thinks she's barely holding things together, so hearing the 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.520 opposite from you would be really nice. Or maybe she 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.240 is aware of how much she's doing to hold things 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.280 together and doesn't know if anyone other than her sees it. 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.680 So let her know that you do. Basically tell her 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:19.800 what you said in your call, that you see how 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.480 much she does, you love having her for a boss, 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:26.159 and you appreciate her. The times I can think of that, 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.440 employees have told me that it's meant an incredible amount 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:33.600 to me. So definitely tell her, but don't get too 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:37.480 attached to hoping that she'll stay. Of course, you don't 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.120 want to lose a good boss, especially in a situation 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.919 that sounds pretty difficult to navigate. But if we're talking 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:46.680 about what is good for her, it sounds like it 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.159 might be a good thing. For her if she does 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:54.640 decide to leave. And that's okay, Okay, here's the next question. Hi, Alison, 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.760 So I have a question for you. I've worked for 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.760 nonprofit for over four years and during that time it 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.400 did artwork for a lot of their events, never when 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:05.600 I was working on the clock of my day job, 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:08.680 but as a freelance artist it was always paid. It 0:06:08.800 --> 0:06:11.600 was a pre agreed amount, but we never wrote anything 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.400 down as to who owned the images or the specific 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:18.200 use for them. So, after an extremely bad year, I 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.040 was unfortunately let go by a bad manager. Um And 0:06:22.200 --> 0:06:23.720 like I re kind, it doesn't still hurt and make 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.920 me angry. I really love that job and I put 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:28.880 a lot of heart and soul into it. So now 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:31.200 it's been almost a year and I discovered that the 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:35.039 Halloween illustrations I created for the organization are being used again. 0:06:35.880 --> 0:06:37.640 I don't want to demand if they stopped using my 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.000 artwork because they paid they commissioned it. But when I 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.440 was an employee, it was openly acknowledged that I was 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:45.599 the artist and credited for it, and a lot of 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:50.600 people knew um just by talking around the organization. So 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:53.080 my question is, do you think it would be unreasonable 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.719 to ask for credit for any future use of my work, 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.560 or would it just seem like a retaliation from a 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:03.440 bitter ex employee. So the answer here is that unless 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.400 you had a written agreement that they would give you 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.599 credit whenever they use the images, they probably do have 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:12.280 the right to use them without crediting you. It is 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.920 possible to have a written agreement that says they have 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:17.520 to credit you whenever those images appear, But if you 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.400 did not arrange that, what they're doing is likely fine. 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.040 I know that you said you were doing this as 0:07:23.040 --> 0:07:26.080 a sort of freelance thing for pay, on top of 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:29.280 your regular work for them. It's very likely that this 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:32.840 was what's called work for hire, which means that they 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.960 hired you specifically to create images for them that they 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.280 would then own so they can use those. They can 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:42.560 probably use them without crediting you. You probably can't demand 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:45.080 that they stop, and I know you weren't proposing that 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:47.480 you do that, but just to give you some background 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:51.760 in that, it is also true that sometimes organizations will 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:55.800 give bylines to current employees but not to former ones. 0:07:56.360 --> 0:07:58.640 You see this more with writing. If you're working for 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.200 an organization and you write some thing, they might give 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.040 you the byline while you're there, but once you leave, 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:07.360 they might just credit the work to the organization more generally, 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.640 so they're not necessarily doing this despite you, or to 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:14.080 try to erase your contribution. It might just be standard 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.880 practice for them to not put people's names on things 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:19.400 if they're no longer working there. But that doesn't mean 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:21.680 that you can't still try to make the request. You 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:23.880 can definitely ask, and you know, the worst they can 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.960 do is they know, I don't think you'll sound like 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:30.120 a bitter X employee as long as you frame the 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.760 request in the right way. You don't want to contact 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.360 them and say, hey, those are my images, so you 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.280 need to give me credit, because that will just invite 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:40.960 them to point out that actually those are their images 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.240 now because they bought them from you and or you 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.360 did it as work for higher and they don't need 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.880 to credit you. But you could say something like, I 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.199 saw that you're using the illustrations that I created, and 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.400 I'm so glad that they're still in use. I had 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:56.280 a lot of fun making them. Would it be possible 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.000 for you to still credit the images to me the 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.680 way that you used to. I'm proud of the work 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:03.480 and it would mean a lot to me to be 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.320 credited for them. With that approach, you're not demanding anything. 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.760 You don't sound better, You're explaining what your interest is, 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.320 and who knows. Maybe they'll say yes, but it's possible 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.520 they'll say now, and if they do, it's probably not personal, 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:21.720 So just respond graciously if that does happen. One other 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.640 thing I will say is, before you do this, think 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:28.160 about what is driving it. If it's something like you're 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:30.719 working to build a portfolio of illustration work and it 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.319 would be professionally helpful to have your name on that work, 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.560 that makes sense, although keep in mind that you can 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.040 still put that work in your portfolio even though your 0:09:39.120 --> 0:09:42.280 name doesn't appear on it. It's pretty normal for designers 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.120 to have work in their portfolio that doesn't carry their 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.240 name once is published, and you can still claim it 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:50.360 as yours when you're trying to get future jobs. But 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.079 if your motivation is more emotional than that, if you're 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:57.200 hurt by being fired and it stings to see them 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:00.160 using your work even though they let you go, and 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.120 this feels like a way to somehow ease some of that, 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.199 you know, to vindicate yourself. Like look if I was 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.760 bad enough to be fired. Why are you still using 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:14.160 my work? If that is more in line with your thinking, 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:19.000 I would strongly consider not pursuing this because while it 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.960 is very emotional to you, to them, it's really just 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.280 business and whether or not they do credit those images 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.440 to you, it's not going to change your feelings about 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.240 what happened, and I worry about you pursuing it in 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.400 an attempt to soothe that hurt. So just give that 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.559 some thought before you decide whether or not to get 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.480 in touch with them. Let's take a quick break here 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:51.240 and come back with more questions. Hi, Alison, I was 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:53.840 hoping to get your input on an issue that I 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:58.400 encountered at work recently. So. I am a female manager 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.200 in her late twenties who throughout with ofly new to managing, 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:05.319 and one of my reports, who is male and around 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.920 my age, has since I've been since I was promoted 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:14.520 to this position, been having performance issues. So as we 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.800 went through this, I pointed out instances where I saw 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.600 the issues. I had a bigger conversation with him a 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:25.600 few months ago where I told him what the expectations were. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.640 I told him how he was falling short of those 0:11:29.320 --> 0:11:32.000 and I told him that if you continued to fall 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:34.320 short of them, we would have to put him on 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:39.199 a performance improvement plan. So we continued to see those issues, 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:41.839 and I followed through and put him on a thirty 0:11:41.880 --> 0:11:45.680 day PISS and during that time continued having our weekly 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.400 one on one and throughout all of us my losses 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:53.079 in the loop and supported me. So as the end 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.720 of the PIP approach, we're having our final one on one, 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.920 and I told my report that we hadn't seen sufficient 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:03.640 improvement yet and that it was very likely, based on 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:05.560 what we've seen so far, that we would have to 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.120 let him go at the end of the plan. So 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:13.640 he was of course understandably upset. But after that conversation, 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:16.920 I thought it went about as well as these things can. 0:12:18.040 --> 0:12:22.080 What I didn't know was that after we had that conversation, 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.880 he turned around and called my boss and he told 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:30.840 my boss that I had a personal vendetta against him 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:35.079 and that this plan was not long enough to show improvement, 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:39.880 to allow him to show improvement, So my boss told 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.880 this guy that needed to talk with me about it. 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.559 But what he's now telling me is that we need 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:50.520 to extend the PIP because this employee is in California, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:55.040 where the employee protections are relatively strong, and my boss 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:58.560 is afraid that this guy will file a lawsuit, not 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.640 even necessarily that held successful, but just that we don't 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.360 want to deal with the time or expense of this lawsuit. 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.120 So my questions are, first of all, is there something 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:11.560 that I should have done differently over the course of 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.680 this particularly should I have tried to give this employee 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.439 a headset that I didn't think things were working out. Secondly, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:23.000 what should my boss ideally have done in this scenario? 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.640 And thirdly, how do I handle this situation going forward? 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:32.360 Because even if this employee fixes his issues, at this point, 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:36.560 I am concerned about his judgment and also just annoyed 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:38.640 that he would go over my head. So I'm not 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.000 quite sure what to do going forward. So i'd really 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:46.760 appreciate your input. Thank you very much. I am frustrated 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:51.200 with your boss here because you did everything right in 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.199 this situation. From what you've said, you had multiple conversations 0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:57.920 with your employee about the problems in his work. You 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:00.920 clearly laid out the expectations for him and where he 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.160 was falling short. You gave him a formal improvement plan 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.239 with benchmarks he would need to meet to show improvement, 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:10.959 and a specific period of time to do it in, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:14.720 and you kept your boss in the loop the whole time. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:20.280 This is exactly the way to handle performance problems. You 0:14:20.320 --> 0:14:22.880 said you're a new manager, so first kudos to you 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.840 forgetting this so right, because performance problems can be really 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.040 hard to handle, even for more experienced managers, but especially 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:33.920 for new managers. And it sounds like you nailed it, 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.320 and he did something that's really important. You kept your 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.480 boss informed while it was happening, and you made sure 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.560 that he supported what you were doing. I don't know 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:45.920 if your boss has acknowledged to you that he messed 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.200 up here, but if not, he should. It's one thing 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.400 for him to realize, oh, we really should give this 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.400 longer than thirty days. And I will say, I don't 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.600 even know if that is right in this case. There 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:59.320 are some performance issues that take longer than thirty days 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.280 to be able to know if the person should remain 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:04.040 in the job or not. But for the vast majority 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.520 of situations, thirty days is a very reasonable amount of time. 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:11.120 That doesn't mean that someone will vastly improve their skills 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:13.600 in that time, but it is enough time to tell 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.600 what kind of trajectory the person is on. Are they 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.880 clearly on the path to getting better or are they not? 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.800 For most days, thirty days really is enough time to 0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:27.560 figure that out, and most performance plans really don't need 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.720 to be longer, although a lot of organizations right very 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:34.520 lengthy ones. But let's say that in this case, your 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:37.800 boss actually is right and something like sixty days would 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:40.880 have been better. Fine, but he should have thought that 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.920 through earlier. And the problem with changing it now is 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.600 that it is signaling to your employee that he can 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:49.280 reverse your decisions by going over your head to your 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.200 own boss when he doesn't like something that you told him. 0:15:52.200 --> 0:15:55.360 It's undermining to you and you need him to respect 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:58.360 your authority and your decision making. And your boss is 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:01.120 actually setting this guy up to think that maybe in 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:04.160 another thirty days, if he hasn't passed the extended plan, 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:06.840 he can go over your head then too, and maybe 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.000 get more time or get the whole thing canceled. It's 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:12.680 not great for him to set him up to believe that, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.360 and it's definitely not good for you as a manager. Also, 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.960 for the record, California does not have any law that 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:25.080 would prohibit you letting someone go for performance reasons. You 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:28.320 can't fire someone in any state because of their race, 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.040 or their gender, or their religion or disability or so forth. 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.360 But in every state, including California, you can fire someone 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.960 for legitimate performance reasons. And you are on especially safe 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:42.800 ground when you have the kind of documentation of those 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:47.160 issues that a performance improvement plan provides you with. Now, 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.520 if your boss is worried about nuisance lawsuits, I get that. 0:16:50.720 --> 0:16:53.040 And if he just wants to double your documentation to 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:55.560 ward that off, I get that as well. But he 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:57.960 should at least acknowledge to you that he messed up 0:16:58.080 --> 0:17:01.320 by not figuring that out earlier. Are on, and that 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.200 now he's put you in this difficult position with your employee, 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.960 and he should be telling you that he will definitely 0:17:07.040 --> 0:17:09.200 have your back in letting this guy go in thirty 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:12.320 days or whatever time period you decide if the problems 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.360 do continue. Now you asked if you should have tried 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.640 to give your employee a heads up that things were 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.159 not working out, but you did. That is what a 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:24.560 performance improvement plan is. Assuming that you did a plan 0:17:24.680 --> 0:17:27.359 that clearly said you've got thirty days you need to 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.320 improve in the following ways during that time and if not, 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.080 we may let you go. That is a heads up. 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.800 That is a very clear heads up that in fact 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:37.800 is a huge part of the point of doing an 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.240 improvement plan, you know, to make sure that everyone is 0:17:40.280 --> 0:17:42.919 on the same page about what needs to change and 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.919 what will happen if things don't change. As for what 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.159 your boss should have done, well, he I mean, he 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:49.960 should have thought this that earlier so that if he 0:17:50.000 --> 0:17:52.719 wanted to do a longer plan, you would know that 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.680 from the outset. Or he should have told this guy 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:57.760 when he called him that you and he had spoken 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:00.760 and that you were aligned on the situation, and he 0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:03.960 certainly should be giving you some reassurance now that he's 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:06.240 not going to flip flop again at the end of 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.960 this extension. As for how to handle the employee going forward, 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.840 it sounds like you are extending the improvement plan and 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:16.119 like another thirty days or something like that. I'm guessing 0:18:17.560 --> 0:18:20.600 I suspect, just based on watching a lot of these situations, 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.960 that he is not going to improve, not because people 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.000 don't improve when they're put on improvement plans, a lot 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.080 of people do, but based on the fact that he 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.760 hasn't done it so far. I'm skeptical that giving him 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.200 another thirty days will somehow change that. So I suspect 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:38.800 that you will have clearcut justification to let him go 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:42.280 at the end of the extension. So I would talk 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:44.640 to your boss right now and just make absolutely sure 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:46.560 that you are both on the same page now that 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.879 he is on board with that plan, so that there 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:51.080 are no surprises when you get to the end of 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.359 this extension. But if I'm wrong and you do see 0:18:54.359 --> 0:18:57.120 the improvement that you need, then great. Then if he's 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.159 working at the level that you need, then fine, But 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:02.479 you would want to make it really clear that the 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.560 improvement needs to be sustained over time. He can't slip 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:09.200 back to old habits and then expect that he'll get 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:12.560 a brand new improvement plan and start that process all 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.000 over again. A condition of taking him off the plan 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.480 is that everyone agrees that this performance level will be 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:22.399 sustained and that if not, you would need to let 0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.440 him go. And you want to make sure that your 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:26.240 boss is on board with that, and that you talk 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:30.000 through exactly what that would mean in different scenarios so 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.080 that he doesn't pull the rug out from under you again. 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:33.919 And when I say, talk through what it means in 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:38.040 different scenarios. I mean, really spell it out, because he 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.720 might be thinking, oh, sure, yeah, that sounds fine in theory, 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:46.359 but he might think it through more thoroughly and more critically. 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.439 If you say, okay, just to make sure if the 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.520 next thirty days go the same way that these last 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.439 thirty days go, then on December one or whatever your 0:19:55.520 --> 0:19:58.320 date is, that means that we would let him go. 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.119 Is that is that you're under standing as well? You know, 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:04.080 just really spell it out and make sure that he's 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.320 thinking it all the way through, because sometimes with managers, 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:08.760 you'll do that and then they'll think, oh no, I'm 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:11.880 not actually comfortable with that, and it's better to find 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.040 that up now so that you can figure out a 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.320 plan that he will actually be on board with the 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:20.280 whole way through. About being annoyed with your employee for 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.240 going over your head, I get it, it is annoying, 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:25.600 but I think the way to look at it is 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.120 to decide, you know, we're talking about his job here, 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:32.160 and if he truly believed that he was being treated unfairly, 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.600 it is okay for him to escalate it. I mean, 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.920 if he really had been treated unfairly, we would want 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:41.200 him to have recourse in that situation. If you felt 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.960 like your boss was treating you unfairly, it might seem 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.040 reasonable to go over his head to his boss, right, 0:20:46.359 --> 0:20:48.760 So I would just try to remember that. Now, if 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.359 you get into a situation where he keeps doing it repeatedly, 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.960 that's a problem and you would need to talk to 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.119 your boss about redirecting this guy back to you. But 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.159 if it's just happened the one time, and it was 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:02.440 when his job was on the line, it's understandable. So 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:04.760 I try to let that part of it go and 0:21:04.840 --> 0:21:08.119 move past it. Let's take a quick break here and 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:18.399 come back with more questions. Here's our next question. I 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.320 share my office with two women. Are spaces are a 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:27.280