Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of entertainment. Today, my guest
Speaker 1: in New York is John Cayman, chairman and CEO of
Speaker 1: Radical Media. Radical has been a mainstay in the New
Speaker 1: York production scene for decades. It's best known for producing
Speaker 1: high end documentaries and non fiction series of all varieties.
Speaker 1: Its offices in the Village are a soup to nuts
Speaker 1: hub of activity for production, from development to the post
Speaker 1: production facilities that it also has. Cayman here speaks candidly
Speaker 1: about what it takes for a company to survive as
Speaker 1: an independent for as long as Radical have, and he
Speaker 1: talks about the unique skill set that it takes to
Speaker 1: manage creative people and process. John Cayman, chairman and CEO
Speaker 1: of Radical Media, thanks for coming by to talk to
Speaker 1: us about the independent production business. Happy to be here.
Speaker 1: It is. Radical Media is really a rarity these days.
Speaker 1: It is a true independent of real size. So much
Speaker 1: production in New York City flows through your offices, and
Speaker 1: we appreciate you coming down to talk to us about
Speaker 1: what it's like in this moment of incredible demand for content,
Speaker 1: particularly television content this moment of incredible demand. What it's
Speaker 1: like to run a sizeable, independent company at a time
Speaker 1: when the industry economics are also shifting radically. If you
Speaker 1: will tell us about right now where you see the
Speaker 1: most where you feel most optimistic for for long term
Speaker 1: growth for your business, Well, I think it's uh truly
Speaker 1: in the audience behavior. I think that what we're seeing
Speaker 1: in this radical shift and change that's taking place obviously
Speaker 1: due to technology. As a company, we anticipated it. We
Speaker 1: thought that this would eventually happen. Old media dies slowly,
Speaker 1: as we know, but in name itself, we embrace radical change.
Speaker 1: And I think that for for a company like ours, uh,
Speaker 1: in the multidisciplinary approach that we have to business. UH,
Speaker 1: it's been part of the ethos of the company. So
Speaker 1: while it is quite confusing, and will admit our heads
Speaker 1: are spinning at the daily announcements of yet another service
Speaker 1: in a new way in which content will be distributed,
Speaker 1: we feel fairly secure that as a company, we make content,
Speaker 1: and we've always embraced the concept of producing content that
Speaker 1: could live across multiple platforms. So it's crazy, it's challenging,
Speaker 1: but it's also exciting. At the same time. You Uh,
Speaker 1: the company in its current form kind of came together
Speaker 1: in the early nineties and you were sort of perfectly
Speaker 1: positioned to capalies on the growing demand at the time
Speaker 1: from cable for high end a lot of unscripted production.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how the that the moment of
Speaker 1: the nineties boom in cable and the current boom that
Speaker 1: we're seeing from from digital buyers as well as linear
Speaker 1: TV buyers, how the two moments are different. Well, I
Speaker 1: think obviously the proliferation of channels that began in the
Speaker 1: nineties and then impacted by obviously digital media and the
Speaker 1: disruption of of digital was a in a sense almost
Speaker 1: uh forced us to change some of our plans. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, in the earliest days of of of radical,
Speaker 1: of being radical, we were big promoters of single sponsored
Speaker 1: programming and the kind of back to the future scenario
Speaker 1: that would cut through the clutter of fragmentation of media
Speaker 1: and cut through some of the uh expansion of advertising
Speaker 1: on cable. Uh. That was quite successful for a while,
Speaker 1: but as broadband began to deliver and companies could resort
Speaker 1: to producing and publishing effectively their own content on their
Speaker 1: own websites, it kind of changed things. A little bit.
Speaker 1: The gatekeepers weren't there. The the programmers that were managing
Speaker 1: the networks weren't necessarily judging whether a program was appropriate
Speaker 1: for air or not, or for their air which was
Speaker 1: something uh different for let's say a brand or an advertiser.
Speaker 1: But from a programming standpoint, we just began to focus
Speaker 1: on producing quality programming for the various partners that we
Speaker 1: could seek out, and and documentary work was certainly an
Speaker 1: early sign of our strength. We obviously are known for
Speaker 1: our premium nonfiction work. Perhaps it's uh my own personal
Speaker 1: preference for nonfiction over overscripted, but I thought it was
Speaker 1: a place that we could we could stand out and uh,
Speaker 1: certainly in the early two thousands with programming that we
Speaker 1: did for companies like the Sundance Channel and Iconoclass and
Speaker 1: other things that we began to produce in documentaries that
Speaker 1: we made like The Fog of War winning an Academy Award,
Speaker 1: or the Concert for George or Joe Berlinger's or or
Speaker 1: second season of Paradise Lost, or or even as they
Speaker 1: moved on to things like Some kind of Monster. Uh.
Speaker 1: That became the signature of the company is when nonfiction
Speaker 1: and documentary style was really defining who we were as
Speaker 1: a company. And how do you make a living on documentaries?
Speaker 1: That's a great question. I don't think you do make
Speaker 1: a living on documentaries per se, although we are seeing
Speaker 1: a resurgence, thank god of box office for one or
Speaker 1: two films. But but I think with the advent of
Speaker 1: Netflix now and increasing the popularity of documentary and of
Speaker 1: course series based nonfiction is a strength of ours and
Speaker 1: one in which we are quite prolific today. Um and
Speaker 1: it's and it's it's something we enjoy and it's uh,
Speaker 1: it seems as if there's an audience there that really
Speaker 1: appreciates it. With all the programming that is out there,
Speaker 1: there's certainly people like myself who prefer nonfiction. And uh,
Speaker 1: we I think are in a great place in terms
Speaker 1: of the various distribution platforms that have constantly evolved, and
Speaker 1: with the advent of streaming and the multiple services that
Speaker 1: are announcing themselves every day, we're in a pretty decent
Speaker 1: demand in terms of content that we create. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: even before we saw the influx of Netflix and Amazon money,
Speaker 1: you saw Discovery, Channel A and E Networks, Sundance. I mean,
Speaker 1: they were already becoming important funders of documentary. Is the
Speaker 1: theatrical release for documentaries? Is that becoming a very rarefied
Speaker 1: thing or do you still see a theatrical market. Well,
Speaker 1: I think the theatrical release for documentary is the brass ring.
Speaker 1: It's rare, and most people would say it never it
Speaker 1: never really can happen any longer until you come along
Speaker 1: to something as beautiful as Mr. Rogers and UH and
Speaker 1: Won't You Be My Neighbor, and also some of the
Speaker 1: other films the RPG as well as UH as as
Speaker 1: well as UH Free Free Solo. So you start you're
Speaker 1: starting to see perhaps an audience as theaters are improving
Speaker 1: themselves and becoming more comfortable to go to with the
Speaker 1: reserve seating and all the benefits of the concession stand, etcetera. Today,
Speaker 1: I think people are starting to enjoy seeing a good
Speaker 1: doc in a theater and ironment as well as at home.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's opportunity in the non fiction space. UM.
Speaker 1: We are certainly excited by it with projects that we're
Speaker 1: doing still for companies. Next weekend we'll have a premiere
Speaker 1: of a new documentary we've just done for Discovery. UM.
Speaker 1: It'll be UH in the competition with Ross Kaufman directing.
Speaker 1: And uh, it's based on the World Wildlife Fund, Uh,
Speaker 1: desire to preserve tigers around the world. Uh. So we're
Speaker 1: still in that business. We're still producing content for the Discoveries,
Speaker 1: not so much Sundance. We'd like to be doing more
Speaker 1: with Sundance. We had a great six years with Iconoclass,
Speaker 1: often pointed to as a as A as a benchmark
Speaker 1: show in that space, but for us, UH, the advent
Speaker 1: of Netflix and the way in which that served up
Speaker 1: in the way in which an order as has been
Speaker 1: consuming premium nonfiction. We've just recently premiered the Ted Bundy
Speaker 1: Show that will be on Netflix. Uh as of January. Uh,
Speaker 1: super excited for Joe Burlinger, who has been obviously super
Speaker 1: active in that true crime space. But interestingly, Joe is
Speaker 1: also just premiered his film on the subject of Bundy
Speaker 1: um at Sundance, and on practically the same weekend they've
Speaker 1: launched the documentary series, also directed by Accidental Um not
Speaker 1: completely accidental, quite actually bizarrely coincidental, but timing probably not.
Speaker 1: It is an anniversary And uh, who better than Joe.
Speaker 1: He's he's clearly a student of the subject. At this point,
Speaker 1: and these things you know that the Tiger project that
Speaker 1: I understand, Fisher seats Stevens worked on, and the Ted
Speaker 1: Bundy these things are not things that you put together
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. These are long term lots
Speaker 1: of research that shoe leather work of documentaries. I still
Speaker 1: want to drill down, like how how do you help
Speaker 1: support that? Do you get distribution money early or do
Speaker 1: you are there times when you guys write checks and
Speaker 1: you're not sure where it's going to go. We develop
Speaker 1: things with a very long tail. We are constantly searching
Speaker 1: and exploring the topics of interest. It's not all crime,
Speaker 1: thank god. Um. We are super excited about the development
Speaker 1: process in discovery and reading great books, reading great articles, materials.
Speaker 1: People come into us. We have a pretty open architecture.
Speaker 1: Radical is a community and it's one that I cherish.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of artists that consider Radical their home,
Speaker 1: whether they're directors, editors, filmmakers, producers, etcetera. And so things
Speaker 1: come into us as a Hopefully I'd like to think
Speaker 1: of us as a reliable partner that people UH want
Speaker 1: to be in business with, which is perhaps a secret
Speaker 1: to our longevity. But I think from a standpoint of
Speaker 1: being able to support an idea, being able to evolve
Speaker 1: an idea, finding the UH what we believe will be
Speaker 1: the secret sauce to making it something that a public
Speaker 1: will appreciate is our job. And within Radical we have
Speaker 1: this community of talent and and UH partners that are
Speaker 1: always looking for those projects. And the internal conversation that
Speaker 1: takes place is the development process for us. It's not
Speaker 1: as much as that we're writing checks, although we are
Speaker 1: optioning material based on I P based on books, etcetera.
Speaker 1: To support a project we might do, but we're mostly
Speaker 1: involved in development as a conversation and an internal conversation
Speaker 1: and a workshop and brainstorming it with the artists that
Speaker 1: call Radical home and you actually you call them your
Speaker 1: artists in Residents program. It's a reference I've made to
Speaker 1: the many people who have a desk into our office.
Speaker 1: We're all artists and residents. Uh. Some are more on
Speaker 1: staff than others UM and I think a very respectful
Speaker 1: term for people whose work I super appreciate and UH
Speaker 1: it's great to know that as an artist in residents
Speaker 1: they may be UH. Fisher Stevens is a great example
Speaker 1: of it. UH. Somebody who's pursuing many different things, including
Speaker 1: his acting career. But the opportunity to to cross pollinate
Speaker 1: our projects, to discuss the possibilities of doing something with
Speaker 1: someone like Fisher and the people whom he might bring
Speaker 1: in to talk about a project is extraordinary and it's
Speaker 1: part of the privilege of having him as an artist
Speaker 1: in Residents and we many others who we consider that.
Speaker 1: You did a terrific documentary a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: What happened Miss Simone with Liz Garbus exactly, just really
Speaker 1: so well done, such illuminating a subject like that. That's
Speaker 1: got to be very gratifying to see when that, when
Speaker 1: something like that comes out and get such a claim,
Speaker 1: and it was super gratifying. It was a fabulous collaboration
Speaker 1: with Liz um. It was one in which we brought
Speaker 1: Liz into the project. Actually, my first conversation was with
Speaker 1: Liz was at a dinner for one of her films.
Speaker 1: Liz Garbs a very accomplished documentary producer and director exactly,
Speaker 1: and uh I was at a premiere for one of
Speaker 1: the films that she had just completed in with her
Speaker 1: producing partner. They turned to me and said, what are
Speaker 1: you working on next and I said, well, we're sort
Speaker 1: of circling this project around an incredible artist and one
Speaker 1: that who's highly misunderstood, Nina Simone, and the two of them,
Speaker 1: both Liz and Amy Hobby lit up at the prospect
Speaker 1: of it. Uh. We were approached by the daughter of
Speaker 1: Nina Simone, who knew us through another project. Speaking of
Speaker 1: years of development, we we had known the people who
Speaker 1: were brought the project to us for many years. One
Speaker 1: of the producers, Jason, was part of the part of
Speaker 1: the process and he approached us, and then eventually we
Speaker 1: brought Liz into the into the mix and produced a
Speaker 1: film that went all the way to the Academy Awards.
Speaker 1: Didn't win, but it's nice to be nominated. You were invited,
Speaker 1: And what does the what in your experience when because
Speaker 1: you've had you've been you know, you you've had the
Speaker 1: success with things like Fog of War. What does in
Speaker 1: this day and age, what does that kind of award
Speaker 1: season traction? Does that? Can that translate to dollars and
Speaker 1: cents on you know, video sales or streams or I
Speaker 1: think that obviously winning an award is as prestigious as
Speaker 1: being recognized for your work. Being nominated, quite frankly, even shortlisted.
Speaker 1: I think being recognized by your peers as an honor. UH.
Speaker 1: I don't think that actually winning the award itself is
Speaker 1: always the uh the secret to success. UH, having won
Speaker 1: many of them, it's uh, it looks nice on the mantel,
Speaker 1: but it's not. It's not. It's it's it. It just
Speaker 1: encourages you to continue to pursue your craft. And having
Speaker 1: one and been part of a film that won an
Speaker 1: Academy Award, having been there two other times for two
Speaker 1: great films, also for the Paradise Lost third installment to
Speaker 1: Paradise Loss with Joe Burlinger and Bruce Sinowski, UH losing
Speaker 1: to a high school football movie, Undefeated, which was UH
Speaker 1: an interesting year with three young men recently UH freed
Speaker 1: from wrongful incarceration and front page of the New York Times.
Speaker 1: We thought we had a good shot. We lost to
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein, but we have learned since, and we were very,
Speaker 1: very proud to be with Netflix for their first nomination
Speaker 1: of a the first original Netflix documentary. UH. And even
Speaker 1: Adam del Dao and Lisa reminded me that this past year,
Speaker 1: when they finally won for Icarus, that don't forget you
Speaker 1: were the first we brought them to the party. That's awesome. Well,
Speaker 1: what would you say at this point? Is your bread
Speaker 1: and butter? Is it the is it the multi episode
Speaker 1: unscripted programming for for cable and digital fires in You know,
Speaker 1: Radical has uh three verticals of its opportunity, so entertainment
Speaker 1: is clearly an important one and UH rising with a
Speaker 1: bullet in terms of opportunity for us, and in that space,
Speaker 1: premium nonfiction is our bread and butter. It's work that
Speaker 1: we do for all the various distribution platforms today there's
Speaker 1: no end to them, as well as the all the
Speaker 1: new ones being announced every day. But we're very privileged
Speaker 1: to have been working with many of the existing ones
Speaker 1: and working with some of the new ones that are
Speaker 1: about to be unleashed. UH. So we're UH, we're certainly
Speaker 1: focused on that business as a recurring series business as
Speaker 1: well as UH limited series. We're focusing on some development
Speaker 1: of some very important scripted material right now, some of
Speaker 1: it based on nonfiction, but the hybrid model of nonfiction
Speaker 1: scripted dramatization combined with script is an area that we're
Speaker 1: very active in. We have our Mars series on national geographic.
Speaker 1: We're just in production and completing production actually of a
Speaker 1: grant ulyssess Grant series based on the Ron Churnout book
Speaker 1: for the History Channel. Uh again, UH, super exciting project
Speaker 1: that we uh just finished production we're in post production on.
Speaker 1: We are looking at other projects like that as we speak,
Speaker 1: and we are very excited about some of the scripted
Speaker 1: material that we're developing based on factual UH stories that
Speaker 1: we think will make for very interesting scripted series or
Speaker 1: even documentaries. So we have a complete mix in that space.
Speaker 1: We are also as a company and part of our
Speaker 1: success is also coming from the work that we do
Speaker 1: in advertising. Uh. It's no secret that radicals roots began
Speaker 1: in advertising, and we still are quite active and UH
Speaker 1: significant player on a global basis. We work for major
Speaker 1: brands like Nike and uh, Apple and others that produce
Speaker 1: great commercial work and longer form content around the world. UH.
Speaker 1: We have a great relationship with both advertising agencies and
Speaker 1: many of the brands directly those That world is incredibly
Speaker 1: confused by the current media landscape as UH an audience's
Speaker 1: behavior as to how they're watching programming in the V
Speaker 1: O D universe. UM, it's not anymore it can't just
Speaker 1: be disruption and uh, I'll become a preacher of the
Speaker 1: or an evangelist for needing brands to rethink how they're
Speaker 1: going to reach an audience and not just think of
Speaker 1: them as consumers, but create something that's truly appreciated by
Speaker 1: that audience. And so we're working actively with brands. We're
Speaker 1: working on a global basis. With that, we will have
Speaker 1: a very robust traditional advertising business, but in another category
Speaker 1: of the company, what we call our studio, we are
Speaker 1: doing a lot of invasion innovation in experiential entertainment, immersive
Speaker 1: entertainment technology. We've always had with a name like Radical Media,
Speaker 1: we've always had a digital fluency as a part of
Speaker 1: the mix of artists and talent that work at Radical
Speaker 1: and that digital fluency allows us to think three dimensionally
Speaker 1: across all the platforms that we produce for whether it's
Speaker 1: entertainment or it's advertising, or in the original creation of
Speaker 1: experiential entertainment that we're doing in the studio section of
Speaker 1: the company. That must be great for you for talent
Speaker 1: scouting and for kind of identifying the next, you know,
Speaker 1: the next thing on the horizon in terms of in
Speaker 1: terms of production in terms of the way that consume
Speaker 1: or want to interact with content. Imagine that's that's really
Speaker 1: fertile ground for you. Well, the fertile ground is for
Speaker 1: talent that considers Radical their home. We truly can provide
Speaker 1: them with multiple platform opportunities. So you could take a
Speaker 1: young artist like Austin Peters who's enjoying UH producing a
Speaker 1: show for ESPN Plus right now with Lebron James more
Speaker 1: than an athlete. H Austin came to us through his
Speaker 1: music video career, has had a very successful commercial career
Speaker 1: and his also going on to series based programming UM,
Speaker 1: not just in a digital side button, developing original work
Speaker 1: as well. Derek c In France, homegrown talent at Radical
Speaker 1: has been with me many many years UH to see
Speaker 1: Derek's not only his his commercial career blossom as it has,
Speaker 1: but his now feature career. And we're looking at projects
Speaker 1: to eventually wear online with every studio and network as
Speaker 1: well to do some work with with Derek. But Derek
Speaker 1: still considers Radical as home, and even while he's in
Speaker 1: the middle of production of a very exciting new HBO show,
Speaker 1: he's working out of our offices and meeting with some
Speaker 1: of the key talent and developing it there and other
Speaker 1: people are working on that. So we we have the
Speaker 1: privilege of this cross pollination of all of the work
Speaker 1: that we do. UM happening in this one place that
Speaker 1: we call home. But it's a community, and it exists
Speaker 1: not just in New York, but in our Los Angeles office,
Speaker 1: in our London office, Berlin as well as Shanghai. You're
Speaker 1: you're widespread around the world. This might be hard to generalize,
Speaker 1: but would you say that the brand work that you do,
Speaker 1: whether it's brand initiatives for for a Nike or or
Speaker 1: even creative advertising, is it is it pound for pound?
Speaker 1: Is it more lucrative for radical to produce a commercial
Speaker 1: for a brand or do an experience for a brand?
Speaker 1: Or is it or is the home run still the
Speaker 1: multi part series that can be renewed. There's a there's
Speaker 1: a nuance of both. Uh, you know. The renewal of
Speaker 1: something like allows us to think ahead of ourselves and
Speaker 1: being able to think about what we're gonna be doing
Speaker 1: next year. Advertising generally is pretty reactive and sometimes doesn't
Speaker 1: know what it's doing from quarter to quarter, but we
Speaker 1: benefit from doing it all. Uh, you know, I I'm
Speaker 1: headed to visit a company to today tonight, UH, visiting
Speaker 1: a company that we make commercials for, but is smart
Speaker 1: enough to know they need to be doing something else.
Speaker 1: And being able to be part of that conversation and
Speaker 1: to have the uh, the credential to be able to
Speaker 1: be part of that bigger conversation is a privilege of
Speaker 1: being radical, radical and also having been doing it for
Speaker 1: many It's not as if we're new to the party.
Speaker 1: It's not as if we haven't done this before. The
Speaker 1: claim that we've gotten a critical acclaim that we've gotten
Speaker 1: for the show's maybe even some of the awards that
Speaker 1: we've won, have given us permission to speak on a
Speaker 1: much broader basis of possibility and UH. And as I
Speaker 1: said before, I'd like to think of us as evangelists
Speaker 1: in that category. How do you as a leader, you
Speaker 1: are the chairman, CEO. How do you We've I've seen
Speaker 1: you know many companies have success grow, but inevitably partners leave,
Speaker 1: projects go, there's fights, lawsuits. How do you? How have
Speaker 1: you kept radical media together in its current form since
Speaker 1: the early nineties, but the roots are even deeper. How
Speaker 1: have you kept it together? What is the what would
Speaker 1: you say have been keys to effective leadership of this
Speaker 1: incredibly creative operation. Well, I think it goes back to, uh,
Speaker 1: the concept of family and of community. I think that, um,
Speaker 1: we don't really have too many fights. We may have disagreements,
Speaker 1: but we don't have fights. Um. All families are sometimes
Speaker 1: a little dysfunctional, but dysfunctionality can lead to great things. Uh.
Speaker 1: I think that it's been a terrific partnership of different
Speaker 1: people in different categories of their responsibilities. And UH, I'd
Speaker 1: like to think that as the ringmaster, along with my
Speaker 1: partner Frank Sherma, has been We've been together for almost
Speaker 1: thirty years in our careers. UH. And Frank was recently
Speaker 1: elected as the chairman of the Television Academy, which I'm
Speaker 1: so incredibly proud of him as well. Yeah, arts and
Speaker 1: Sciences based in New York, which is an amazing accomplishment
Speaker 1: for for Frank and one that I'm particularly proud of.
Speaker 1: But I think our leadership and the part ownership with
Speaker 1: different people, in the way in which we've been able
Speaker 1: to work with people who have been part of the company,
Speaker 1: We've had an incredible record of people staying with us
Speaker 1: for a long time. And UH, and even when they leave, Uh,
Speaker 1: we remain generally pretty good friends and they come back
Speaker 1: to visit me constantly, And Uh, I think it's because
Speaker 1: of the relationship that we built and the road that
Speaker 1: we decided to take in terms of looking towards the
Speaker 1: future and always thinking about the future and a vision
Speaker 1: for what's next with the company, which i'd like to
Speaker 1: think of is my job. Well, that speaks It speaks
Speaker 1: well of how you treat people, for sure. Tell us,
Speaker 1: speaking of what's next? What for nineteen what are we
Speaker 1: give us a hint of a couple of things that
Speaker 1: are brewing that you're excited about. Well, I think that
Speaker 1: from a standpoint of conversations that we're having right now
Speaker 1: and a little too soon to announce some of the projects.
Speaker 1: But we have been uh incredibly active in producing and
Speaker 1: selling and developing and production on shows across almost every
Speaker 1: key distribution platform out there right now, from networks to
Speaker 1: streamers and new platforms of technology. So, uh, we have
Speaker 1: a host of shows that we've been developing that are
Speaker 1: in that gestation period which we are finally closing on
Speaker 1: all of the deals and going into various stages of production.
Speaker 1: We are thinking about the creation of some new I
Speaker 1: P and some projects in the experiential space that we've
Speaker 1: been incubating for the last year or so and that
Speaker 1: are finally coming to fruition. I think that those uh,
Speaker 1: those projects are near and dear to me in terms
Speaker 1: of the potential of new economic model old for us.
Speaker 1: As you mentioned earlier, there's no question there's a challenging
Speaker 1: economy of all of this liberation of channel channels. It's
Speaker 1: not as simple as everybody thinks it's. It could be
Speaker 1: considered the new Golden Age of television, but not with
Speaker 1: the same price tag or opportunity um. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, there are places in which we're recognizing opportunities.
Speaker 1: In two thousand nineteen I think is gonna be a
Speaker 1: big year for us in terms of realizing some of
Speaker 1: those projects. Great well, we will stay tuned and keep
Speaker 1: our eye out for that at Radical Media Logo. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for your time, John super, thank you, Cynthia,
Speaker 1: and look forward to it by thanks for listening. To
Speaker 1: be sure to tune in next week for another episode
Speaker 1: of Strictly Business.