1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a five year 2 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: old little girl get raped and murdered and the case 3 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: goes cold? Crime stories with me Grace happened to First 4 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: of all, take a listen to our friends at k 5 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: h Q six. We had more trust, especially with the 6 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: children and her neighborhood in the north side. You know, 7 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: family mostly. You know, I'm fairly safe. Everybody thought they 8 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: were safe. February, Missoula, Montana. Steve's little girl, five year 9 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: old Chavon McGinnis, was thriving. She's a very happy child, 10 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 1: very telligent, very outgoing. Just in a short period of 11 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: time that she was here, I think she impacted a 12 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: lot of people's lives. Stephen, Chavon's mother had split up 13 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: and he moved across town. The nightmare began with a 14 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,039 Speaker 1: single knock from Missoula PD. Look on his guy's face 15 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: was very chilling, and he asked me to sit down. 16 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 1: He said, thing, your daughter's missing. Steve says. The officer 17 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 1: told him they were doing everything they could, that crews 18 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,279 Speaker 1: were searching the entire city. That knock on the door 19 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: no parent wants. Well, it came for this family. Let 20 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: me introduce you our all star panel, Who's gonna break 21 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: it down and put it back together for you? The 22 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: search for Chavon James at shell Nutt twenty seven years 23 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: metro major case now lawyer at shell Nutt Lawfirm dot com. 24 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: Renowned psychologist joining us from New York. Karen Stark at 25 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: Karen Stark dot com. Former police chief John's Creek now 26 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: at Chris Buyer's Investigation and polygraph dot com. Doctor Tim Gallagher, 27 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: the medical examiner for the entire state of Florida. You 28 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: can find him at Pathcaremed dot com. Cheron La Pointe, 29 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: genetic genealogist, the gene hunter at the Jane Hunter dot com. 30 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: And David Mittelman, the CEO of Authoram Incorporated, expert in 31 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: DNA identification at authoram dot com. But first to Ray Kaputo, 32 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: lead news anchor for WDBO. Ray, let's start at the beginning. 33 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: Where did the murder of this five year old little 34 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: girl take place? Well, please call Missoula, Montana, Nancy. It's 35 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: on the western edge of that state, not far from 36 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,960 Speaker 1: the Idaho border. Thought seventy five thousand people in town. 37 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 1: It's not a huge town. And one unique thing about 38 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: Missoula is that it has an interesting called ninety that 39 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: runs through it, and that that road is familiar. It's 40 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,640 Speaker 1: a good chance of you run through your town too, 41 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: because it's the longest highway in the US. It basically 42 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: stretches from coast to coast, so very cold time a 43 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: year or two. This was in February, where they're not 44 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: getting a ton of light. And it was in the 45 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: thirties or choose high twenties when all this happened. I'm 46 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,360 Speaker 1: processing what you're saying, Ray Kaputo. And when you sat 47 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: a town of seventy thousand, that really reduces the suspect pool. Okay, 48 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: But when you said nine runs beside it, well, that 49 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: opens up the suspect pool. And it brings to mind 50 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: the case of Dylan and Shasta Gronee up in Cordelaine, Idaho. 51 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: They live if you look down on an aerial nothing 52 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: but green forest. But there was an interstate, and as 53 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: the kidnapper and killer spree killer drove by on the interstate, 54 00:03:55,000 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: he saw Shasta playing in an above ground pool, pulled 55 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: off the interstate kill. The whole family also ended up 56 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: killing the little brother Dylan. Shasta lived. So when you 57 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: have an interstate in the mix, no matter how small 58 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: the town is. That changes things. Another factor, Ray Kaputo, 59 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: you said Montana. Sure, there's I ninety, but Montana is 60 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:28,280 Speaker 1: very mountainous. I mean, unless you're going for tourism and 61 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:31,239 Speaker 1: you are going out of your way to see its beauty. 62 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: How many people are in that neck of the woods? 63 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,400 Speaker 1: Ray Nancy, You're completely right. It's a very rural part 64 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: of the world. And if you don't go there for beauty, 65 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: you know it's probably a policeer just passing through. And 66 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 1: get back to ninety, Just to tell you how immense 67 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: this road is and how somebody could just be passing through. 68 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: I grew up in the middle of New York State 69 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 1: in Syracuse, and I ninety literally runs past my hometown 70 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: to all the way out out there in New York. 71 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: So people can literally go from coast to coast a 72 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: seemingly on this road. Now I'm thinking about what we 73 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: know so far. Ray kid Puto, you're telling me that 74 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: this five year little girl is raped and murder. Doctor 75 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: Tim Gallagher, a medical examiner, State of Florida. How did 76 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: they deduce that the child had been raped? Well, we 77 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: can do sexual assault kit on the child, where we 78 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 1: would take swabs of the vaginal area and of the 79 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 1: anal area as well as in the mouth, and we 80 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: could look under the microscope and see if there is 81 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: sperm or some sort of evidence of sexual contact pubic 82 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: hair from an adult, and then we could deduce that 83 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: they've been raped. That way, we could also look for 84 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,480 Speaker 1: injuries on the body, injuries in the crotch area, injuries 85 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,160 Speaker 1: in the vaginal area, and indirect them. That will also 86 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: give us clues as to whether this child was raped 87 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: or not. Take us nor forensic kh Q six hope 88 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: fell right along with the brutal cold temperatures. She's found 89 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: outside of the Zoosa. It was in this area just 90 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: off of Vine ninety called Tura. She was violated. No, 91 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 1: it was really awful. Chavon's half sister, Una says. The 92 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 1: family believes whoever did this was watching Chavon as she walked, 93 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: waiting for an opportunity for the little girl to be alone. 94 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: Her house was within sight and the little friend she'd 95 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: been visiting. Her mom walked her to the end of 96 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: that block, but she had dinner on the stove and 97 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: had to get back to stir the dinner, and she said, oh, 98 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: it's okay. Honey, you can see your house. You think 99 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: you'll be all right. And she went back to the 100 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: kids and dinner, and they believed her killer somehow got 101 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: Chavon into his car. Oh my stars. To Raka Puto, 102 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: I was curious, as everyone has been, about why chavan 103 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: was outside and these temperatures explain how she was kidnapped 104 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: on Nancy. I mean, we really don't know because she's 105 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: seemingly disappeared without a trace. But one thing, you know, 106 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: you have a young girl. I do as well, and 107 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: kids at five years old their people pleasers that you know, 108 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: they want to actively make friends, they want to get 109 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: positive responses from adults. So it's not hard to imagine 110 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: how easily it would have been for an adult to 111 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: get a five year old little girl and just that 112 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: that moment where she's not being watched into his car. 113 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: But you know, right now, we don't know really, but 114 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: we know that she got into that car when we 115 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,679 Speaker 1: were the other well we know this too, Chief Chris 116 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: Buyers joining us now with Chris Buyer's investigations and polygrass 117 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: dot Com. I was wondering what mom or dad would 118 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: let the little girl go play outside in this weather 119 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: all by herself and it was getting dark, if not 120 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,840 Speaker 1: already dark. But that's not what happened. Chief. We know 121 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: that she had a playdate with a little girl a 122 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: couple of blocks away, and the mom walked her all 123 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: all the way home except for one block. But she 124 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: had left something on the stove and turned around, Look 125 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: there's your house, Just walk to your house. And she 126 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: went back to the stove and let the little girl 127 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: walk one block and in that block, Chief Buyers, she 128 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: gets kidnapped. Yeah, what a what a horrible situation. And 129 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: you got to think too, probably in that type of 130 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: town we're talking the early seventies, probably nothing like that 131 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: had happened there before. And just mom, you know this, 132 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: This little girl's mom, friend's mom let her guard down, 133 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that was something that probably happened quite 134 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: regularly in that area. And what a just horrible set 135 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: of circumstances to line up for this to happen. To 136 00:08:47,080 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Earth Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, we are talking about 137 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: the disappearance, the brutal, rate kidnap and murder of a 138 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: five year old little girl. To make matters worse, the 139 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: case goes cold. Take a listen to our friends at 140 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: k HQ six. Chavan was walking home from a neighborhood 141 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: friend's house, nearly visible from her own, but that short 142 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: distance on the North Missoula sidewalks mere moments alone was 143 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: all it took for a killer to get her. I 144 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: think her body was found the next evening, two days. 145 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: I think it was two days. Did you just did 146 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: you just know before you knew? You know, like, yeah, 147 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: I had a feeling that she was not going to 148 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: survive because she's so little, she was so young, and 149 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: it was February, it was freezing at night, and always said, 150 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: yeah it was you know, whether it was it was 151 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: not good, and whether things were not favorable for any 152 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: kind of survival. Certainly her body was dumped east of town, 153 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: in the area of Tura, just off of by ninety. 154 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: She was found in a culvert, snow piled up all around. 155 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: Everyone was a suspect, but Stephen says he never thought 156 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: his daughter's killer was close to their family. Did you 157 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: think it was someone you knew? Maybe? Oh? I did 158 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 1: not think it was anyone I knew too. Karen start 159 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: joining me in New York psychologists joining us karens dot 160 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: Com Karen with a C. Karen when you hear that 161 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: her body was dumped, dumped down a culvert, was snow 162 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: piled up all around her. This five year old girl, 163 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: her body just dumped. What does that tell you about 164 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: the killer girl, Nanthy. It tells me that this is 165 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: somebody who has absolutely no regard for human life. We're 166 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:58,960 Speaker 1: talking about someone who could look at this little girl 167 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: as though she would or a toy. He could care 168 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: less about her. There's not even an attempt to make 169 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: it seem as though she's in a warm place or 170 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: anything like that. She's actually just touched the side. Also 171 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 1: to James Shelnuh twenty seven years mester, a major case 172 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: at Shelnut Lawfirm dot com. James, you know that neighbor 173 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: mom must have tortured herself the rest of her life 174 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: as her own mom. And to make it more complex, 175 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: another wrinkle is that mom and dad are separated and 176 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: living two different parts of town. You've got the neighbor 177 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: mom who lives with the guilt of leaving the girl alone, 178 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: a five year old little girl alone to walk the 179 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: rest of the way home, and then turning around and leaving, 180 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 1: not looking back. Then you've got the mother who it's 181 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: on her watch, whether she intended it to happen or not. 182 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: Then you got the dad who's living across town after 183 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 1: the split, without any control over what's happening with this 184 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: five year old, and she ends up raped and dead. Yeah, 185 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: you know you in cases like this, you know, there's 186 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: always people who ask themselves, what if I would have 187 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: done something differently? Could I have prevented this? You know? 188 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: Did I play a role in this unintentionally? Can I 189 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: stop this? You got a reality? The person who caused 190 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: this is this maniac who murdered this child. That's who 191 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 1: caused it. And I think those are normal films to have, 192 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: you know what, You're right, that's hard to get your 193 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: minder on that when you're so busy blaming yourself. But 194 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: none of these people had anything to do with this 195 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: little girl's death. Back to Ray Kaputo, lead news anchor 196 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: w DBO joining us. Ray, So, it's a very small town, 197 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: even though there is I ninety the interstate there in 198 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: the beautiful Montana mountains. And the girl goes missing. When 199 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: did they How much time passed before they find her body? 200 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:02,320 Speaker 1: Along Nancy? All about two days passes and they end 201 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: up finding her not far down the road from the 202 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: town right off the highway in a culvert. It's a 203 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: little tunnel that passes under the road with you know 204 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 1: where water travels, and you know there's snow around, and 205 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: she she was just discarded like a piece of trash. Well, 206 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: it didn't take very long for them, but you know, 207 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: it might have seemed like eternity for those who are 208 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: looking for to share the point. Joining us genetic genealogisists, 209 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: the so called gene hunter at the gene hunter dot 210 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: com shared thanks for being with us. The child had 211 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: been out in the snow, literally piles of snow all 212 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 1: around her. How does that affect or does it affect 213 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: DNA nancy? It definitely affects DNA um. It affects it 214 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 1: by it degrades the DNA it um. The DNA in 215 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: the element get affected by cold weather, by rain, by water, 216 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: um being mixed in the body and it makes it 217 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: harder to be able to separate and work with. Luckily, 218 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: at the time the investigators preserved DNA that proved to 219 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: be key evidence in this case. And anytime you have 220 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: DNA that's been around it was out in the elements 221 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: and then sat basically on a shelf somewhere for about 222 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: forty seven years, so the preservation of that DNA was amazing. 223 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: This family suffering and as the days pass, no arrests 224 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: are made. Take a listen to our friends at KHQ six. 225 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: It's my understanding that the police at the time felt 226 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: that whoever had murdered her was not experienced at that 227 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: she was assaulted and then she sustained several stab wounds. 228 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: There were many initial leads. Missoula police say each was 229 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: aggressively pursued. They even publicly discussed real opening the case, 230 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: as covered in this article by the Missoulean There is DNA. 231 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,040 Speaker 1: I know that it has been run against the criminal 232 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: databases and nothing really came of that. Despite his rage, 233 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 1: his extreme sorrow, life moved on. It had to. Steve 234 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: did end up remarrying, having Una and another daughter, but 235 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: knowing they will never meet his first as a wound 236 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: that even time can't touch. So the world keeps spinning 237 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: and time passes by, and her parents still devastated, even 238 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: though seemingly on the outside they're moving forward with their lives. 239 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: Inside their heart is broken over the death, the unsolved 240 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 1: death of their five year old girl, Chavon McGinnis. You know, 241 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: I want to go back to you, Rayka Puto. I 242 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: didn't realize she had been stabbed so many times. What 243 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: can you tell me about cod cause of death? She 244 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 1: was raped, she was beaten, and she was stabbed. And 245 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: you know, given this, this is a five year old girl. 246 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: I mean, what kind of monster can look a little child, 247 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: innocent child and the eyes to do that? Nancy? But 248 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: but she was not in good ship. I mean she 249 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: was hurt pretty badly and ultimately stabbed to death too. 250 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: Chris Buyer's former police chief John's Creek. When you come 251 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: upon a body like that, you've got a child, five 252 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: year old little girl in a snow bank, you've been 253 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: looking for her for days one, how do you separate 254 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: your emotions from what you've got to do right then 255 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: at the scene? And where do you start, you know, 256 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: dealing with child chasing, child murders, child's rapes. There's nothing 257 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: worse in my twenty five years than I ever dealt 258 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 1: with was that. And you just learned to compartmentalize these 259 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: things and just relying your training. Your training kicks in 260 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: at that point. You've got a job to do, you know, 261 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: you want to get answers to this. You know, you 262 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: want to bring somebody to justice, so that's what motivates 263 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: you at this point. You know, things in the seventies, 264 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure we're a lot different than they would be 265 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: today coming up on this, because when we approach these 266 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: typecases where there's a body, where there's a sexual assault, 267 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: we're thinking DNA right off the bat. That responding officers 268 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,920 Speaker 1: that are getting there, we're setting up, you know, perimeters, 269 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: we're knowing that we have to protect these miniscule cells 270 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: that make up the DNA. In the seventies, you know, 271 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: I'm not real sure. I know DNA became a criminal 272 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 1: thing in the eighties, But when you come to a 273 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,360 Speaker 1: scene like this, I mean, the first thing you're doing, 274 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,919 Speaker 1: when it's a child, it's usually obvious that there's been 275 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 1: sexual assault. You start looking at the sexual registries within 276 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 1: the area, and you start sending units to those houses, 277 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: and you start, you know, you go in. You're searching 278 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: for the child or you're searching for any evidence at 279 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: this point, but you're hitting that sexual predator or registry 280 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: pretty quick to begin, You're because that's usually going to 281 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: be it's not the first time that the person's done this, 282 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: it's going to be they've done this repeatedly, and so 283 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 1: that's how you started. But again, coming up on these 284 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: things in twenty twenty, nineteen seventy four are a huge difference, 285 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: I would imagine, and the family sits by twiddling their thumbs, 286 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: doing what they can, but ultimately giving up any hope 287 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: that the killer would ever be caught. Take a listen 288 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: to Chavon's dad. Yes, they had a lot of of course, 289 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: they will talk to many people about her, and they 290 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: had a good, good sense of who she was. And 291 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: even at that young age, I think she was quite 292 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: a remarkable child and many many people will you know, 293 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: will say that. Her teachers, you know, say that, and 294 00:18:45,440 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: she was just a wonderful person. And and precocious crime stories. 295 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: With Nancy Grace, we are talking about the kidnapped, rape 296 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: and murder of a five year old little girl. How 297 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 1: did it happen? Who took her? Decades pass and the 298 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: case stays cold. Back to doctor Tim Gallagher joining me, 299 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: the medical examiner for the State of Florida. Doctor Gallagher, 300 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: when you are searching the body of a child like this, 301 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,239 Speaker 1: does it cross your mind that whatever you find on 302 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: her body may just sit on a shelf for the 303 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: next forty years, but ultimately may end up proving the case. 304 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: I mean, what goes through your mind and how do 305 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: you disassociate from the fact that you're working on the 306 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: body of a dead child. Well, that's always a difficult part, Nancy. 307 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: And you know, we at the Medical Examiner's offices are 308 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: human beings with children of our own, and sometimes it 309 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: is very difficult to do these things. But you know, 310 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: in our minds we need to get closure for the family, 311 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: We need to solve the case. We need to help 312 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: solve the case. And it's that type of internal drive 313 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: that enables us to do the work that we do, 314 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: you know. And getting back to the other question, you know, 315 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: collecting DNA, the technology that we use to collect DNA 316 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: is vastly different from forty seven years ago when this 317 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: case took place. Our methods of collecting it allow the 318 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,920 Speaker 1: DNA to become more stable over the longer periods of time. 319 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: So yes, not only do we collect samples for the case, 320 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: but we do it in duplicate because we know that 321 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: there is a chance that that can sit on the 322 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: shelf for fifty years, maybe even a hundred years, and 323 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: we have to believe in the technology that we have 324 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: now that DNA would be examinable and a good sample 325 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: even one hundred years from now. And now joining us 326 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 1: is the CEO of Authoram Incorporated, the company that did 327 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: the i D work with DNA on this case at 328 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: authoram dot com. David, thank you for being with us. 329 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 1: How did you get involved in Chavon's case. So we 330 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 1: have a laboratory. We're the only folks in the United 331 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: States that do this kind of advanced testing Folia House, 332 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: and we have a laboratory that can work from evidence 333 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: that's been either deemed them suitable or insufficient by other 334 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: test methods. And so we got involved because there was 335 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: evidence remaining at this crime scene. Was it was very little. 336 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 1: It was about fifty cells worth of DNA left. And 337 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: hold on, hold on, You've got me drinking from the 338 00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: fire hygien. I've got a j D. That's true. But 339 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: I'm not a chemist or a biologist or a scientist. 340 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: So I'm trying to digest what you're saying. You said 341 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: you had fifty cells. Now I do know this. I 342 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: just help the twins get through their nuclear science Merit Badge. 343 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: I learned a lot about atoms and protons and neutrons 344 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,160 Speaker 1: and particles. What do you mean by a cell? When 345 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: you have fifty cells? How big is that? Do I 346 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: need to look under a microscope to see it? Yeah, 347 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: this is a super tiny quantity um to give you, 348 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: to give you a perspective, you know, if you if 349 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: you do like a medical test, a medical test or 350 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: a maybe an ancestry test with a consumer company. Um. 351 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: You know, in science quantities, you'll be collecting between seven 352 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty to like a thousand nanograms, that's what 353 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: they call it. We're talking about quantities that are like, 354 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, somewhere between a half a nanogram to like 355 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: a quarter of a nanagram. So these are these are 356 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: minute quantity. I don't know what a nanagram is. Does 357 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: it fit in a thimble? It's like a it's like 358 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 1: a yeah, it's a super tiny amount of DNA And 359 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 1: so okay, no offense, David Mettleman, because you're the scientist. 360 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm just a trial lawyer. But super tiny does not 361 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: sound like a scientific amount to me. You got you 362 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: got dummy down man? Uh fifty grams? What what is that? 363 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 1: Does it fit in a teaspoon? Does sit on the 364 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: top of a needle. What is that? I mean, like 365 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: a single cell would be a so tiny you would 366 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: need a high powered scope to be able to see it. 367 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: And it's got now I'm getting it. We're getting down 368 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: to on the top of a pen thing. Okay, so 369 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: fifty cells. I can't even see that with a naked eye. Yeah. 370 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: And in fact, not only can you not see it, 371 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: the most forensic methods will not be able to access 372 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,160 Speaker 1: or see that that amount of DNA either. And then 373 00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: on top of it, on top of it being a 374 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: small amount of DNA, it's also old. It's from nineteen 375 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: seventy four, so it's degraded. When DNA gets old, it 376 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: begins to break into little anybat pieces, and that makes 377 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: it also hard to analyze. So you have DNA that 378 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: is a small amount, but also in any baty pieces, 379 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: and it has probably been you know, it has been 380 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: stored in the best thing they could store if it's 381 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: been sitting around since nineteen seventy four. James shell Nutt 382 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: twenty seven years Metro major case. Now lawyer is actually 383 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 1: starting to make my head hurt, physically hurt, because I 384 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:33,440 Speaker 1: feel like I'm back in the courtroom with a there's 385 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: no such thing as bad DNA. We're lucky to have DNA. 386 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: But when I hear him saying this, it just seems 387 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: almost insurmountable. And that's all we have in this case. Yeah, 388 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: there's not a lot to go on. And so so 389 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: that's that's what we specialize in cases that are are intractable. 390 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,640 Speaker 1: They've they've you know, and there's a lot of other 391 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 1: cases like this. There are cases where there's evidence there's DNA, 392 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: and like said, no DNA is bad. It's great to 393 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: have DNA, but sometimes there's not enough DNA or DNA 394 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: is not suitable for one reason or another, and the 395 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 1: case can't move forward. And just in the last couple 396 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,719 Speaker 1: of years, its narology to you had fifty five zero 397 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: cells YEA naked to the invisible eye. When you look 398 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: through a microscope, can you tell is it skin? Is 399 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: it hair? Is it touch DNA? Is it sperm? Can 400 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: you tell that by looking through the microscope? Sure? Sure 401 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: you can. You can tell um sometimes what kind of 402 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: cell type it is, and uh and so and not. 403 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 1: In fact, how how they do some of these examinations 404 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: to look if a sexual assault has occurred. They're looking 405 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: for something that looks like sperm. What was this? Was it? Blood? 406 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: Was it? What was it? This was? This was semen 407 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: from a from a sexual assault kit. Okay, so this 408 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 1: is semen taken from inside or the outside of this 409 00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 1: five year old girl's body. Okay? What kind of tests? 410 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: David Middleman joining me, the CEO of Authoram, and praise 411 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: God you exist. I mean, I don't know if you 412 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: believe in God. Maybe you're strict chemist, and maybe it 413 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense to you. But without Authoram and people 414 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: like you, and people like cheryla point the genetic genealogist, 415 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: these cases would never ever be solved. So when you 416 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: look through the microscope you see this, you know it's sperm, 417 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,679 Speaker 1: you know it's degraded. You've only got fifty sales. What 418 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: do you do then? What kind of test did you 419 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: run on it? So we have a way of In 420 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,120 Speaker 1: a traditional forensic test, you're looking at you know, these 421 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: markers they make up what people call the codas test, 422 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: and it's twenty markers, twenty spots in your DNA. What 423 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: we're doing is very different. We're looking at tens of thousands, 424 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: two hundreds of thousands of markers in the DNA, and 425 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: so we collected not only that we're working with these 426 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: challenging kind of sources of the DNA, we're also collecting 427 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: tremendous amounts of information. And that information that we collect 428 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 1: is the information that Shara and other folks can use 429 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: to then do relationship testing and comparisons that allow you 430 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 1: to help kind of build out that genetic genealogy part. 431 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 1: David Middleman, when I ask you what test you ran, 432 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: I didn't really understand your answer. You said you were 433 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 1: looking at thousands of data points? Is there a name 434 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: to the test or? And also how accurate is that tests? Sure? 435 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: Those are good questions. So the test that we run 436 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: is called forensic grade genome sequencing. It's a forensic Oh 437 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: well wait wait David, it's it's just like a game. 438 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: Do you you know? I don't know what you just said? Now, 439 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: slow down? Taught, regular people taught? What did you just say? 440 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: It's a what test? It's a forensic grade genome sequencing. 441 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: So all the DNA in yoursell is your genome. And 442 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: we use a technique called sequencing to access information about 443 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 1: lots of markers at once, tens of thousands to hundreds 444 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: of thousands and it designs specifically for forensics. It's the 445 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,080 Speaker 1: first of this kind test that is only for forensic DNA, 446 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: which allows us, like I said, to access DNA that 447 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: otherwise would be not usable. And so the whole name 448 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: is forensic grade genome sequencing. And we collect, as I said, 449 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 1: tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of markers and 450 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: so with that much information you can make very very 451 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: very accurate and precise measurements of relationship. The other thing 452 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: that I'll note is that the work that we do 453 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: at OFFERM is uh it's investigational, and so you'll appreciate this, uh, 454 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: you know, with the with the with the lawyer and 455 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: trial background. We start with a CODAS test, right, that's 456 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: you know, a profile has been uploaded the CODAS it 457 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: doesn't match an own identity. Then we do our test 458 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 1: which complements that and it generates the data unique to 459 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: find somebody. And then at the end you do another 460 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: CODAS style test to confirm that the work that we 461 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: did was correct and we've we've produced the right identity. 462 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: And so so it's nice about it is CODAS is 463 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: exceptional at being an accredited involve vetted testing courts to 464 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: confirm identity. It's just that COTUS isn't always good at 465 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: finding people, and so what we do is we find 466 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: people and then we work with folks to use the 467 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: conventional forensic testing to confirm and so that makes it 468 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: very accurate but also very powerful. This is neither here 469 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 1: nor there, But I've just got to know this, David Middleman, 470 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: how did you end up and this line of business? 471 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: What led you there? Well, I've been doing DNA testing 472 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 1: my whole working life. I'm a one trick pony, it's 473 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: all I've ever done DNA testing. And I started in 474 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: the Human Genome Project in the nineties. This was the 475 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: original project to map out all the DNA all the 476 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: DNA letters of a human being. And so this was 477 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: in the nineties and then I fell in love with 478 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,520 Speaker 1: DNA and mostly biomedical research in medicine. But I've done 479 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 1: that for a couple of decades and there's actually twenty 480 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: of us. I have to mention it's not just me, 481 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 1: it's a whole team of us that have worked in 482 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: biomedicine and in medical testing, and we've helped bring a 483 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: lot of this technology to that field, to medicine, and 484 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: we came to this realization a few years ago that 485 00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: you can go to any street corner and get a 486 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: medical test now for whatever you think might ail you. 487 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: But what street corner can you go to to solve 488 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: a cold case? And so we made a decision to 489 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: drop what we were doing in the biomedical research in 490 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: clinical space. There's lots of great people there and bring 491 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,240 Speaker 1: this very powerful being a testing technology to an area 492 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: that's underserved but has lots of cold cases. There's there's 493 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of cases that would could possibly benefit 494 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: from this approach, and so so we all jumped on 495 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: and we started the company off firm. Okay, wait a minute, David, 496 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm trying to figure out when you were 497 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: a little boy, did you think up in your treehouse, Wow, 498 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to become an expert and for is it great? 499 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: Genome secrecy. I didn't anticipate that I would be talking 500 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: to lawyers and working with it's a law enforcement But 501 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 1: when I was a little boy, I was really curious 502 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: what DNA was and what it means and how it 503 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: makes us who we are. And so I've been lifelong 504 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: fascinated with DNA and genetics. Um. But but I've just 505 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: followed that, you know, wherever it goes. And I've always 506 00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: looked for a way to do good for the world, 507 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 1: and it seemed like a good opportunity to. Like I said, 508 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: I'm a one trick so I have to look for 509 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: where to be applied. I don't think that I would 510 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: refer to you as a one trick pony. David Mitteleman 511 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: CEO of U thor M O T h R A 512 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: M Inc. They did the DNA I d in this case, 513 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: Um God bless you. Yeah, it's it's a huge team project. 514 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: So it's a it's a it's a lot of folks 515 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: that were involved. But we're very excited to be um 516 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: one of those team players to help bring this case 517 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: to a quivment. David, how long did it take for 518 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: you to come up with the answers to who it is? 519 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: Who the part was? So, so there's two parts. There's 520 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: two parts to this project, right. There's you have to 521 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: generate that set of information, the markers, and that was 522 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: a twelve that's a twelve week process. But then there's 523 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,920 Speaker 1: the genealogy component. And in this case, we actually worked 524 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:11,600 Speaker 1: with the FBI. This is a Steve Kramer and Steve 525 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: Bush at the FBI, they have a genealogy division and 526 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: they did the research on this case. And so sometimes 527 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: we get contracted to build a profile and do the 528 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: identifying work. Sometimes we're just contracted to build the profile, 529 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: and this time we did the profile. This was in 530 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 1: a partnership with the with the Bureau Time Stories with 531 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. We are talking to a brilliant scientists who, 532 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: along with police, crime scene techs investigators, somehow managed to 533 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: put this forty plus year old case back together again. 534 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: David Middleman, but now I'm wanting to hear from Chief 535 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: Jason White with a Missola p D. We are here 536 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: today to discuss the closure of a forty six year 537 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: old case. On February fifth, nineteen seventy four, five year 538 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: old Chavan McGinnis was abducted within a few blocks of 539 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: her Northside neighborhood home. Tragically, two days later, she was 540 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: found deceased near the Tura exit off of Interstate ninety. 541 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: Despite all of the exhaustive hours by detectives over the 542 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: past four decades, the case has remained unsolved and open. 543 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: In twenty and nineteen, the Missouri Police Department reached out 544 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: to the newly formed of Missoula County Sheriff's Office Cold 545 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: Case Squad for assistance. Through modern DNA technology and assistance 546 00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: from state and federal law enforcement partners, the Cold Case 547 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: Squad was able to identify a suspect. The suspect has 548 00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: been identified as Richard William Davis. Suspect Davis was born 549 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 1: on November seventh, nineteen forty one, and most recently resided 550 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: in Cabot, Arkansas. What more do we know? Take a 551 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 1: listen to Michael Aaron. The Missoula County Sheriff's Office says 552 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 1: DNA evidence from the scene of the killing matches that 553 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: of Richard William Davis. According to the FBI, Davis moved 554 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: to North Little Rock in the late nineteen seventies, then 555 00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 1: lived in Cabot from the late nineteen eighties until his 556 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 1: death in twenty twelve. It was through cooperation with the 557 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: suspects family that we were able to get information that 558 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: conclusively linked suspect Davis to Chavon's murder. That's because DNA 559 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,440 Speaker 1: evidence from the crime scene, reanalyzed in twenty nineteen, partially 560 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: matched the DNA of a family member of Davis who 561 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: had sent a DNA sample into a consumer database. Wow, 562 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,800 Speaker 1: and here from THHV eleven. Davis had no known ties 563 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: to Missoula, and police say he was just passing through 564 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: when McGuinness disappeared. And we are just completely overwhelmed by science, 565 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: the dedication, the hard work that has gone into everything 566 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: that you have done. Una McGinnis never met her half sister, 567 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: but that doesn't change the pain. Certainly affected our family 568 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,880 Speaker 1: for many decades, and she and her family have felt 569 00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: fort or six years is a very long space of 570 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 1: time to be in a state of unending grief and 571 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: a mean sorrow. For why, it's beautiful and amazing, Sean. 572 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,280 Speaker 1: That pain now I met with a sense of peace 573 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: and gratitude for those who brought them a long awaited answer. 574 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: We are just completely overwhelmed by the science, the dedication, 575 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,640 Speaker 1: the hard work that has gone into everything that you 576 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: have done. He described it as unending grief and sorrow. 577 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: Out to Ray Kaputo, Lee News anchor WDBO, what do 578 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,080 Speaker 1: we know about this guy? It doesn't really paint the 579 00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: picture of a child rapist or a murderer. Says he 580 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 1: was a loving has been dead and grandfather. He was married, 581 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: he had four daughters of his own. He was a 582 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: born again Christian, and also some of his jobs are 583 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: kind of alarming given what he's accused to do. When 584 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: he was a missionary in the sixties, he worked at 585 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,040 Speaker 1: an Arkansas school for the deaf in the blind, and 586 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: he even drove a school bus in the seventies in Alaska. 587 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: So Williams has been around kids many, many parts of 588 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,879 Speaker 1: his life. Yeah, almost everything you're saying, right, ka Uto, 589 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: he's seeking out jobs with children, just like Chavonne. Listen 590 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:37,040 Speaker 1: to Una McGinnis. He left behind a widow, and the 591 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: detective said that it's extremely rare for this type of 592 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 1: criminal to have made because that's just not normally the 593 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: case when they're looking at this type of criminal behavior. 594 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:56,000 Speaker 1: He moved around a lot. He would move suddenly. He 595 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,919 Speaker 1: would tell his wife, you know, I've got a job 596 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: wind up in Florida. Where moving right now. We're leaving 597 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 1: today and pack everything up, booth kids, And then they 598 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: get to Florida and there would not, in fact be 599 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: the job, and it would kind of have been a 600 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 1: lie that he told the family to relocate quickly. So 601 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: currently the Missoula Police Department and the FBI are reaching 602 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,480 Speaker 1: out to the many places where he lived and suddenly 603 00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,279 Speaker 1: moved his family too, to let them know that if 604 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: they have cold cases, that this DNA profile is now available. 605 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: So now police are trying to compare his DNA profile 606 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,480 Speaker 1: to all the many places he lives. In my mind, 607 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: he fits the profile perfectly. What about it, James Shelnutt, Yeah, 608 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: I mean where you begin with this guy? I was 609 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,320 Speaker 1: thinking the exact same thing, and there's so many places 610 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: to start, but I'll make it brief. You know, I'm 611 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: gonna start on the opposite end. A born again Christian 612 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 1: goes back and admits what he's done wrong, and I 613 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 1: will tell you it doesn't sound like this guy admitted anything. 614 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 1: He left these paris in at bar for forty six years. 615 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 1: I also am under the belief and have experienced that 616 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: people who commit these crimes against children, these predators, you 617 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,359 Speaker 1: don't just find one victim. And I would love to 618 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: see the police agencies involved in this investigation go back 619 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:22,160 Speaker 1: and contact other police agencies where this guy has lived 620 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: at and say, hey, if you've got anything unsolved or 621 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,239 Speaker 1: anything in DNA that you got laying around that you 622 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: think matches this guy during this timeframe, he lived here. 623 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,439 Speaker 1: You need to run it on this database. I would 624 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: not be surprised if more than one victim turned up. 625 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: Is justice delayed? Justice denied? Many parties in this case 626 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: have now passed on, passed on before the case was 627 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: ever solved. I think no, there is still justice, justice 628 00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,920 Speaker 1: for Chavon. Nancy Grace crime story is signing off, goodbye 629 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:02,239 Speaker 1: for it