1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,480 Speaker 1: Hi, this is new due to the virus. I'm recording 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: from home, so you may notice a difference in audio quality. 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,160 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World, legendary spy and art 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: restorer Gabriel Alan has slipped quietly into Venice for a 5 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: much needed holiday with his wife and two young children. 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: But when Pope Paul the seventh died suddenly, Gabriel is 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: summoned to Rome by the Holy Father's loyal private secretary, 8 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: Archbishop Luigi Donati. A billion Catholic faithful have been told 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: that the Pope died of a heart attack. Donati suspects murder. 10 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: The Order is a novel of friendship and faith in 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: a perilous and uncertain world. I've read all nineteen of 12 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: his Gabriel Alan novels twice and I'm a huge fan 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: of his work. I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: Daniel Silva, an award winning Number one New York Times 15 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: bestselling author of twenty three including The Black Widow, The 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: Other Woman, and The New Girl. His books are critically 17 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: acclaimed bestsellers around the world. Did you have any notion 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: that Gabriel Alan, heart restorer, Assassin's Firemaster would have a 19 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: career this long. When you started, I certainly did not. 20 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: He was literally constructed, built, conceived to appear in a 21 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: single book. The first book, which is called The Kill Artist, 22 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: was not a title I liked, to be honest with you. 23 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: It was inflicted on me by my publisher. But nevertheless, 24 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: he was supposed to appear in that first book, and 25 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: that was it. And I was talked into writing a 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: second novel with Gabriel, and that novel sold more than 27 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: the first novel. And then I wrote the third book, 28 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: which is The Confessor, which introduced Gabriel's ties to the Vatican. 29 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,919 Speaker 1: That's where they originate in that novel. By the time 30 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: I finished that book, it was pretty clear to me 31 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: that I had a successful series. He was at that 32 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: time in the top five of the New York Times 33 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: Bestseller this year in a year out, and it was 34 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: going to work. Much to my surprise. I did not 35 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: think that Israeli could be a successful continuing series. I 36 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: thought there was far too much anti Israeli sentiment in 37 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: the world, and frankly too much anti Semitism in the 38 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: world for an Israeli to ever work in a truly 39 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: mass market way. And I have been proven wrong, and 40 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 1: no one is more surprised by the long term success 41 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: of the series than I am. It seems to me 42 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: that you've had sort of three vectors, if I can 43 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: use that term of threat. You've had the cherror ofst 44 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: threat from the Muslim world, You've had the Russians, and 45 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: then you've had a unique series of problems involving the 46 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: Catholic Church. The twenty volumes actually have these three patterns 47 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: woven through them. Did that just evolve over time or 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: did you ever have a notion that's all it would No, 49 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: I did introduce Gabriel in a counter terrorism story, and 50 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: then nine to eleven happened, And if you look at 51 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: the pattern of my books, I wanted nothing to do 52 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: with terrorism post nine to eleven. It just was not 53 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: something that seemed entertaining being a Washingtonian watching smoke rising 54 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: from the Pentagon. To me, it just wasn't entertaining, even 55 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: though I had something to say about it. Giving my 56 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: experience as a journalist is a topic that I had 57 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: been in it for a long time, the rise of 58 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: Islamic extremism. I just didn't want to write novels about it. 59 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: So if you look at those first terry of books. 60 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: Gabriel is really dealing with what I would later call 61 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: the unfinished business of the Holocaust, property, theft art, looting, 62 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: war criminals, and the Roman Catholic Church. And as he 63 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: formed a really close bond and friendship with my fictitious Pope, 64 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: Pope Paul the seventh, and perhaps more important, the Pope's 65 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: private secretary Luigi Donati. Gabriel restored art for the Vatican 66 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: for time he lived on a Vatican owned property. He 67 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: really had just had developed a very close bond to 68 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: the Vatican. I think it's one of the most unique 69 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: aspects of the series that this Israeli had this close 70 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: friendship with the Holy Father, the Pope, and the Pope's 71 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: private secretary, and it gave me an arena to explore 72 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:55,480 Speaker 1: some of the more painful issues in Jewish Catholic history. 73 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: And that is something that I take up in part 74 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: in the new book. The new book think you had 75 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: finished before they had opened the archives recently for the 76 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: World War two period. They opened the archives and then 77 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 1: they immediately had to close them down because of COVID. 78 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: So in terms of the aspect of Pope Pious the 79 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: twelfth and the degree to which he may or may 80 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: not have countenance the support of the Church helping Nazi 81 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 1: war criminals, in effect escape justice get to South America. 82 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: And the last sort of thing we heard before they 83 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: closed the doors on this was that the Church had 84 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: been hoping that they would unearth some exculpatory evidence about 85 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: Pious's role in it. And I think that the last 86 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: glimpse we had was that it's probably the opposite of 87 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: what we're going to find there. Historians and writers and 88 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: critics have argued enough for a couple of decades over 89 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: Pious's role and not speaking out and about the Holocaust, 90 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,919 Speaker 1: not trying to call on Hitler to stop it. But 91 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: I think that his behavior after the war is just 92 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:05,920 Speaker 1: as before you meet Gabriel Alon. You did several novels 93 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 1: are about Northern Ireland and one novel about World War Two, 94 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: the great novels. I like them, but they're really very 95 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: different in rhythm from what happens once you start doing 96 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: Gabriel a lot. What was your thinking when you did 97 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:25,279 Speaker 1: those books. I wanted to establish an American intelligence officer 98 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 1: with an interesting family life who was involved in counter terrorism. 99 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: Each year when I go on book tour, my fans 100 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: really liked those novels. When are you going to write 101 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: Michael Osborne? He's the protagonist, When are you going to 102 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: write him again? When I first wrote Gabriel, there was 103 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: just an extra level there, and it is because he 104 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: sort of stands at the crossroads of several things that 105 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: I'm incredibly interested in art, the history of the Holocaust 106 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: in World War Two, the history of the Middle East, 107 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: the threat against Israel is just never ending. And the 108 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: baggage that many Israelis of Gabriel's age carry is just 109 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: a level that we as Americans don't quite grasp. And 110 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that has made 111 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: the series successful, is that people have a greater understanding 112 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: of what it means to actually be an Israeli and 113 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: an Israeli intelligence officer. Both his parents stumbled into Israel 114 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: barely alive, out of displaced persons camps in Europe. He 115 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: was born in the fifties with the memory of the 116 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: Holocaust hanging over them, with candles burning on the mantelpiece 117 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: for his grandparents and all the other members of his 118 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: family who have been killed. That creates a depth of 119 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 1: character and a residence of character that I was just 120 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: not able to achieve with a hardworking, interesting CIA character. 121 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: Do you think he has a professional You needed to 122 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: do those earlier books to get your skills to a 123 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: point where when you and Gabriel met each other, you 124 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: were prepared to write with the kind of I mean, 125 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 1: I think of your books was romantic. That is such 126 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: a good question, and I think only someone with your 127 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: experience book as a novelist and a nonfiction writer and 128 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: an intellectual can grasp that. And the answer is yes. 129 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: I just did an interview with a reporter and literary 130 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 1: writer and he says, I get tired of telling my readers, 131 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: but your books get better and better with each subsequent novel, 132 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: and how do you do it? I'm The short answer 133 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: is I work very hard at it. But I do 134 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: think that, like anything you get better, it takes practice. 135 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: I do think that I was better prepared to write 136 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: Gabriel when I did, But also he did just strike 137 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: something within me, and I was able to create really 138 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: interesting characters around him, And I do think that that's 139 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: probably the most important aspect of the races, that he 140 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: does have an incredible supporting cast of characters. His mentor 141 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: Ari Chamrone, the other people who work in the office 142 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: with him, a pope, the Pope's private secretary, art thieves, 143 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: British spies, American spies. I don't think it's accurate, but 144 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: I always think of Ben Gurion when I think of Chamron. 145 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: It's not quite accurate, but does represent that generation. He 146 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,679 Speaker 1: would be several years younger than the old Man, as 147 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: they call him, but he came to a British world, 148 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 1: Palestine before there was an Israel, and literally fought for 149 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: and then built a country. There's not many people who 150 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: can say they did that. There's something about the sort 151 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: of stolid toughness that Bengurian had that kind of comes 152 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: through and may not be a deliberate parallel, it seems 153 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: to me it comes through in your vision of Chamron. 154 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 1: Gabriel and Chamron do see the world a little bit differently. 155 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: Shamaron is rather uncompromising. I did an interview once with 156 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: someone who's very knowledgeable on Israel and the politics, and he'said, 157 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: Gabriel la is he a two stater or a one 158 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: stater at the time, I believe I answered that Gabriel 159 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 1: Laon was a two stater, that he did believe that 160 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: the Palestinians needed a state of their own. I don't 161 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: think that Ari Shamron would have fallen into that category 162 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 1: you made initially when I want to draw you out 163 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: on for a minute, because I think it's the one 164 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: that all too many Americans do not understand, and that is, 165 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: at least up through the last generation Israelis in particular, 166 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: in European Jews in general have had a lot of 167 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,839 Speaker 1: experiences which gave them my poignancy, which is very hard 168 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 1: to capture in a place like America, because just the 169 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: sheer number of different things that were hard or terrifying 170 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: or evil over a period of fifty years was an 171 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 1: astonishing process. And you capture that with different personalities who 172 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: come in from different angles, and you unveil them rather 173 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: than trumpet them, so that people sort of get it. 174 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: You are not cramming it down their throat. If they 175 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:39,840 Speaker 1: sat around lamenting their plight, it would be rather boring 176 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: to listen to. And it's also it's not true almost 177 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: everyone in the country if they are descendants of European Jews, 178 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: nearly everyone lost relatives in the Holocaust. That's true of 179 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,680 Speaker 1: many American Jews as well. You know, you just remark 180 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: that it was in the past fifty years or so. 181 00:11:57,800 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: One of the things I explore in the new book 182 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: is the source of anti Semitism, where did it come from? 183 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: And as part of that, I point out that, as 184 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: I have on a couple of occasions, that the Holocaust 185 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: was really not the only Holocaust. There were many other 186 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: massacres of Jews in Europe. It was just sort of 187 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: the program to end off programs. Well, you know, you 188 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: capture some of this the Black Widow will you open 189 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,599 Speaker 1: with the description of France that is so horrifying. It 190 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: does strike me that there has been a resurgence of 191 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: anti semitism in ways it is pretty shocking. The shocking 192 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: rise of anti Semitism in the last couple of years 193 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: is something I deal with in this novel explicitly, and 194 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: I'm afraid that much of that is now actually coming 195 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: from the far right. It's particularly in Germany. I make 196 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: a connection in this novel between the rise of anti 197 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: Semitism in Europe and the simultaneous rise right populism and 198 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: real extremism in Europe. I think that is where it 199 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: is eminating from now and away, between the virus and 200 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 1: the European problems. They take our attention away from the 201 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: parallel challenges from the Islamic group, having taken away the 202 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: caliphate and turned them into losers, which is what Gabriel 203 00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: said to do in The Black Widow, if you remember. 204 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 1: I do believe that the combination of years and years 205 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: of punishing attacks against terrorists in the Middle East, combined 206 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: with better surveillance, the European security services were sort of 207 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: slow on the uptake. They were slow to address these problems, 208 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: and I've been rightly critical of them in my novels. 209 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 1: But they are doing a better job now. France pretty draconian. 210 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: They had a terrible problem. I am cautiously pessimistic that 211 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: we've turned the corner on the threat of Jehottest terrorism 212 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: in Europe, except for smaller guides with knives and trucks 213 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,720 Speaker 1: and things like that. I think that we've made incredible 214 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: progress to come back to the church from a I 215 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 1: have a sense that you have some real affection for 216 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: Pope Francis. I do. I have spent a lot of 217 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 1: time around the Vatican, as you know. I have witnessed 218 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: firsthand and sat in on discussions with traditional priests about 219 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: their disdain for Francis. I do like them very much, actually, 220 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: and I know that the populist right in Europe does not, 221 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: because we have populist politicians in Italy and their supporters, 222 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: and that is actually the inspiration for the novel. It 223 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: was their absolute disdain for Francis. That's where I found 224 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: inspiration for the order. There does you know some real 225 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 1: parallels in tone between in your pope and the real Pope. 226 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 1: I always thought of Paul the seventh as a traditionalist reformer, 227 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 1: so he was going to be slow and cautious and 228 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: around the edges. He was not going to make any 229 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: big hand motions, as we say in my universe. As 230 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: I point out in the forward, the papacies of Ratzinger 231 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: and Ergoglio, they did not occur. So we go straight 232 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: from JP two to the fictitious Pope Caul the seventh. 233 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: So all of the turmoil flows through him, as well 234 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: as the real challenges facing the Roman Catholic Church and 235 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: the real divisions, and as you know, they are profound, 236 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: and that is putting it mildly. I think that the 237 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 1: Church is in serious, serious trouble, and that includes its 238 00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: financial condition. I have been told by people close to 239 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: the Vatican and at the Vatican that the church is 240 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: really sort of on the verge of bankruptcy. Here in 241 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: this country. We've had numerous dioceses and orders declare bankruptcy already. 242 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: I think we're up to about nineteen. You cannot overstate 243 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: the damage that has been done to the church. But 244 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: the clerical sexual abuse scandal, it has the potential to 245 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: be an extinction level event if they're not careful. I'm 246 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: always impressed, maybe partly because we're in round garding me 247 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: from Rome, but the scale of the overall church is 248 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: still abating. It's extraordinary. Gabriel tells the Pope that he 249 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: would not want to live in a world without the 250 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: Roman Catholic Church, and that is a theme that runs 251 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: through this novel. The church has got to get its 252 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 1: act together and find a way to heal its divisions 253 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: and right the ship, and figure a way out of 254 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: this self made calamity of the priestly sexual abuse scandal. 255 00:16:55,920 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: We go up occasionally to an abbey that's about an 256 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: hour from here, up into the mountains, which is one 257 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: of the places that Benedict actually stopped and was a 258 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: hermit in a cave for about three years. If you 259 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 1: think about the geography of Italy, Benedict up there is 260 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: preaching to the Pagans is around five AD. But the 261 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: church's reach was that small that he's actually working his 262 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: way south through the Pagans. One of the things that 263 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: I point out in this novel, because I have a 264 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: couple of scenes set in a CC, that a CC 265 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: became Catholic or Christian in the third century. Yes, it 266 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: was small, but it's also true that the spread of 267 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: Christianity was quite a remarkable achievement. Immediate spread, so quickly, 268 00:17:51,080 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: it's actually remarkable. Part of what you do that makes 269 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: Gabriel alone so interesting is you actually rely on friends 270 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: who are experts at garden restoration. You're able even an 271 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: occasional paragraphsman, they're not necessarily major themes, but they give 272 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: all of your books. That makes it very vivid. I'm curious, 273 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: do you literally sit down want folks and say we're 274 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: great art restorers and say, so, how would you do 275 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: this and what would you think? And you know, what 276 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: would you be using. I actually have one art restorer 277 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: who serves as my advisor. I use allegory the paintings 278 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: that Gabriel is working on find their way into the 279 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: story almost invariably, and in The Confessor, for example, he 280 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 1: is restoring a madonna and child, I believe, but he's 281 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: actually restoring the actual face of Mary, and that has 282 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 1: deep resonance within the story. In this novel, he's supposed 283 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: to be on holiday in Venice, and to give him 284 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: something to do for a couple of weeks, he's actually 285 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: restoring the Tintoretto. The Tintoretto depicts Mary's visit to the temple, 286 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 1: and that has a great deal of resonance within the story. 287 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: If there is art in the story, I pick a 288 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,879 Speaker 1: painting that as the subject matter. The iconography has something 289 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: to do with the topic I'm working on. I've actually 290 00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: become a pretty good fictitious art restorer. I don't need 291 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 1: too much help anymore if you look carefully, I try 292 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: to avoid having too much sort of brush to canvas 293 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: description of it, trying to describe someone painting. It's not 294 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,400 Speaker 1: too easily done, or might not be all that interesting 295 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: to read. Usually something else going on within the story. Well, 296 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: you have had twenty years of practice as an art restort. 297 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: You wouldn't be answered by the way the director of 298 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: the museum Barbariyatta, who is I think the highest ranking 299 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: woman of the Vatican. They just found two oil paintings 300 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: by Raphael which they thought were frescoes. They went back 301 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: and were re examining them and realized that they weren't 302 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 1: frescoes at all. They were paintings by Rafael, in fact, 303 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: probably the last two paintings he did before he died. 304 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: So they're now on display at the Vatican Museum. And 305 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 1: you would love the whole story. People had just assumed 306 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: that they were frescos. They were said at each end 307 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: of a fresco and looked like they were part of 308 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: the san Fresco. You create a really charming character as 309 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: you're art dealer in London. Was that based on a 310 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: real person? I'll answer exactly the same way that it's 311 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: in the acknowledgement. I thank someone named Patrick Mattison who 312 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 1: gave me Isherwood, and that's all I'll say on it. 313 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: There is a gallery in that corner of Mason's Yard 314 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 1: called the Metison Gallery, and I'll leave it at that. 315 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: That's great, that's terrific. You've lived a number of interesting places, 316 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: both in doing the novels in your earlier career in 317 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: the news business. When you did the Corsican sections, do 318 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: you actually go to Corsica. I have visited there, but 319 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,840 Speaker 1: actually I create mentally my own village, my own people. 320 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: You see where Gabriel in Moscow rules and the defector 321 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: he's living on a Vatican property in a little town 322 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:48,120 Speaker 1: called Amalia in Umbria. Well, we've rented that farm where 323 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: Gabriel actually is living and lived there for the summer 324 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 1: while I was working on that book. Whenever possible, I 325 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: do that. One of the things about COVID was that 326 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: I was supposed to come this winter finish the book 327 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: there in Rome. It's a conclave ending, and I wanted 328 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: to come there and write it there, and I couldn't 329 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 1: because at that time Italy was being ravaged by COVID. 330 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: I think you are remarkable in your ability to bring 331 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: things together, to make them interesting, but also to make 332 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: them an education. So you're the best of the combination 333 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: of entertainment and education, and that I appreciate that, especially 334 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: coming from you, I really appreciate that. Thank you so much, 335 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 1: mister speaker. Thank you to my guest Daniel Silva. You 336 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: can read more about his new novel The Order and 337 00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: Gabriel Alan's character on our show page at newtsworld dot com. 338 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: Newts World is produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. 339 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Debbie Myers and our producer is 340 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 1: Garnsey Slart. The artwork for the show was creatively Steve 341 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 1: Penley Special thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. 342 00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 1: Please email me with your questions atingwire dot com slash questions. 343 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 1: I'll answer them in future episodes. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 344 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcasts and both rate 345 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 346 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. I'm new English. 347 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 1: This is Newtsworld.