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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column

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Speaker 1: for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this

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Speaker 3: is Deo Therapists. This week, a new father worries that

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Speaker 3: his parents' constant criticisms could be as damaging to his

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Speaker 3: child as they were to him.

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Speaker 4: I called my mom and it was a snotty, crying

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Speaker 4: mess and told her, when you say those things, it

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Speaker 4: makes me feel really bad. And I've been working really

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Speaker 4: hard to accept myself and love myself and it just

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Speaker 4: really hurts. I appreciate it if you didn't. And her

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Speaker 4: response was something along the lines of get over it.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process. Hey,

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Speaker 1: just a note before we start. Dear Therapist is for

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Speaker 1: informational purposes only, does not constitute medical advice, and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 1: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 1: have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter, you

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Speaker 1: are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part or

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Speaker 1: in full, and we may edit it for length and

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Speaker 1: or clarity.

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Speaker 3: Hi guy, Hi Lourie. So what do we have today?

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Speaker 1: Well, today we have a letter from a guy who

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Speaker 1: has some very critical parents and he doesn't know how

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Speaker 1: to deal with them. Here's what he wrote, Dear Therapists,

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Speaker 1: over the last few years, I've put in a lot

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Speaker 1: of work when it comes to understanding my parents and

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Speaker 1: my relationship to them. They are quite critical and judgmental,

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Speaker 1: quick to say that you or someone else as being

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Speaker 1: stupid or your appearance looks funny. They love to give

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Speaker 1: their unsolicited opinion and could be quite antagonistic when people

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Speaker 1: don't do things as they do. While in the company

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Speaker 1: of others, they will jump at the opportunity to tell

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Speaker 1: embarrassing stories of my past, remind me of times I

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Speaker 1: tried and came up short, and point out anything they

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Speaker 1: can about something quote wrong I may be doing in

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Speaker 1: the moment. I know my parents are loving and caring

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Speaker 1: and either don't know how to show this or have

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Speaker 1: very odd ways of doing so. I have come to

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Speaker 1: learn that this is more a reflection of their own

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Speaker 1: insecurities and care that was lacking in their own upbringing.

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Speaker 1: I try to be mindful of this and not let

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Speaker 1: it impact my own self worth. The problem is young

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Speaker 1: kids don't know this, and I am the proud parent

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Speaker 1: of a newborn child. I very much want my family

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Speaker 1: to be a big part of my child's life, but

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Speaker 1: I am absolutely terrified of their feedback and criticism slowly

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Speaker 1: chipping away at the self esteem of my child. I

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Speaker 1: know I can't shelter my child from all criticisms and

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Speaker 1: personalities in life, nor would I want to. But the

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Speaker 1: grandparent grandchild relationship should be a safe space of love, empowerment,

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Speaker 1: and emotion validation, things that may have been lacking in

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Speaker 1: my own childhood. My parents are also of the generation

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Speaker 1: where they think tough love and harsh criticism build healthy,

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Speaker 1: resilient adults. They like to go on at length about

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Speaker 1: how we're all sensitive millennials now. In the past, when

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Speaker 1: I've tried to make it known how their words and

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Speaker 1: actions made me feel, it sometimes came with an apology,

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Speaker 1: but not without an added but you're too sensitive, or

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Speaker 1: you think you've got problems. I worry that any concerns

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Speaker 1: I voiced won't be taken seriously, or worse, that they'll

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Speaker 1: be stubborn and doubled down with their dated, my house,

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Speaker 1: my rules attitude. You can probably guess from my letter

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Speaker 1: that I can be quick to skirt conflict and appease others.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't seem like the healthy way to go

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Speaker 1: about this. How can I protect my child? Thank you, Jeff.

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Speaker 3: So the transition to parenthood, right when you have your

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Speaker 3: first child and you transition to being a parent, it

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Speaker 3: brings up pretty much every psychological conflict you might have

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Speaker 3: had ever in your life, because it brings up you

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Speaker 3: feelings about the parenting that you receive from your parents,

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Speaker 3: what kind of parent you will be. It radically changes

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Speaker 3: your sense of identity. So that's a huge life event

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Speaker 3: that just brings up so many feelings.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. There's this really famous paper by Selma

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Speaker 1: Fraber called The Ghosts in the Nursery, and it's about

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Speaker 1: how when we have our kids, we start to relive

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Speaker 1: a lot of the experiences that we had as kids

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Speaker 1: that maybe we hadn't thought about in a very long time.

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Speaker 1: And it's always that thing where you say I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to do it the way my parents did, and

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Speaker 1: then you find yourself doing exactly the thing that you

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Speaker 1: said you wouldn't. I wonder if there's some bit of

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Speaker 1: him that maybe he's not aware of yet, that worries

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Speaker 1: that he might do something to his own child that

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want to. Maybe it doesn't look the same

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Speaker 1: as what his parents did, but that somehow he's going

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Speaker 1: to fall short when it comes to him and his

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Speaker 1: own child.

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Speaker 3: What a lot of people don't recognize it is an

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Speaker 3: absolutely terrifying responsibility. When as therapists, people tell us that

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Speaker 3: they've had a newborn and they start talking about the

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Speaker 3: fields that they have, it's very very common, except it's

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Speaker 3: not something that people express to their friends, like, oh,

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Speaker 3: my goodness, I'm going to break my kid.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people will talk about, oh, I'm not sleeping,

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Speaker 1: or those aspects of having a newborn. But I remember

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Speaker 1: when I had my son, people weren't really talking about

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Speaker 1: the fact that you're handed this human that you are

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Speaker 1: now responsible for in every way and you've never done

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Speaker 1: it before, and that is terrifying. And so when I

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Speaker 1: started talking about that with other people, it felt like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not the only one. Oh, you felt this way too,

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Speaker 1: and so I think that Jeff needs to understand that

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Speaker 1: it's very normal to feel like I want to do

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Speaker 1: right by this little person and I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I know how, and especially in his situation where you

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Speaker 1: feels like he didn't have great modeling for that right.

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Speaker 3: A friend of mine one said, I break every iPhone

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Speaker 3: I have. Why did somebody give me a baby?

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Speaker 1: I know it's like I can't even take care of

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Speaker 1: all out, So now I have this human. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: go talk to him and see what we can do

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Speaker 1: to help him with the situation with his parents.

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Speaker 3: Yes, this is Deotherapists and we'll be back after a

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Speaker 3: short break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and.

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Speaker 3: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists. Hi Jeff, Hi,

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Speaker 3: Hi Jeff. It's good to have you on this show.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for having me, and congratulations on the baby.

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Speaker 1: How old is the baby now?

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Speaker 4: Four months old?

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Speaker 1: Are you getting any sleep?

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Speaker 4: Not much? No?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: Is it just you?

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Speaker 3: Did you have a poet? Ye?

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Speaker 4: My partner, yet she's tired too, Jeff.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that stood out for me in

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Speaker 3: your letter was you use the word terrified to describe

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Speaker 3: your worry about the impact your parents might have on

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Speaker 3: your son. Can you tell us a little bit more

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Speaker 3: about really what that fear is, about what interactions they've

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Speaker 3: been with your parents so far.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've done some therapy myself over the last couple

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Speaker 4: of years, and I'm starting to realize that a lot

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Speaker 4: of my you know, my anxieties and insecurities and things

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Speaker 4: surrounding self worth, they stem from messages that I got

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Speaker 4: as a child. And I'm a lot more receptive now

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Speaker 4: to the the tone of voice and the messaging that

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Speaker 4: I get from my parents, whether they're you know, kind

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Speaker 4: of off hand like oh that's stupid, or you know,

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Speaker 4: comments about my parents or comments about others. As I

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Speaker 4: can see pretty clearly now sort of the line between

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Speaker 4: that and how I am today. I'm just I'm so scared.

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Speaker 3: Have your parents seen him yet and how has that

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Speaker 3: been they have?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I'm just like, I'm looking for those things,

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Speaker 4: for those messages for my parents, and I know when

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Speaker 4: you're looking for them, you see them. I see them

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Speaker 4: just making sort of like offhand remarks about the way

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Speaker 4: that he's dressed or just like physical appearance.

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Speaker 1: What exactly have they said, just to give us a

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Speaker 1: flavor of what that sounds like.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oh you look ridiculous, like in that outfit or crying,

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Speaker 4: Oh you're fine. And one of the things I think

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Speaker 4: I've seen or noticed in myself and my history with

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Speaker 4: them is like I think I got a lot of

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Speaker 4: that messaging is when I wasn't fine, I was told

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Speaker 4: that I was fine, you know, didn't feel like my

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Speaker 4: emotions were very validated. I'm so freaked out about the

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Speaker 4: implications of that and that messaging for my son.

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Speaker 1: What do you do in the moment when your parents

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Speaker 1: say things like this, and more importantly, how do you feel?

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Speaker 4: I generally just take it. When it really gets under

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Speaker 4: my skin, I respond sometimes maybe not the best way,

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Speaker 4: just kind of not angry, but just like yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever,

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Speaker 4: And I feel really really small.

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Speaker 1: The reason that you feel all is because we all

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Speaker 1: do this around our parents at times when they trigger

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Speaker 1: something that was upsetting from our childhood. We get very

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Speaker 1: young in those moments, so it's not our adult selves

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Speaker 1: that's responding, it's our childhood self. And when you even

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Speaker 1: just minimize your feeling a second ago, you said, you know,

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Speaker 1: they sort of tried to tell you, No, you're not

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Speaker 1: feeling this. You just did that to yourself. You said,

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Speaker 1: well angry, No, not angry. I'll bet you get pretty angry.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: And part of that being young when we were with

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Speaker 3: our parents is that we revert to the fact that

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Speaker 3: when we were kids and this happened, we didn't have

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Speaker 3: a lot of options. We couldn't just get up and go,

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Speaker 3: for example, and then we maintain that in our adulthood

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Speaker 3: we feel like helpless and paralyzed and I have to

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Speaker 3: take it. Part of what happens when we get into

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Speaker 3: that young mental space because we're with our parents and

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Speaker 3: we revert back to childhood as we feel as helpless

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Speaker 3: and lacking in resources as we did when we were

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Speaker 3: indeed helpless and lacking in resources, even though now we're

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Speaker 3: not how much you can identify feeling that feeling of

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Speaker 3: helplessness and that you just have to take it because

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Speaker 3: there's not much you can actually do as an adult.

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Speaker 4: I feel that fully, yeah one. And I don't want

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Speaker 4: to rock the boat with them, and I see how

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Speaker 4: this is problematic, but I don't want to make them

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Speaker 4: question how they raised me and feel bad in that sense.

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Speaker 3: They don't necessarily have to feel bad, But why not

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Speaker 3: alert them to the fact that you didn't and still

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Speaker 3: don't like to be spoken to that way.

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Speaker 4: Because I know how much it would hurt me and

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Speaker 4: how terrible I would feel if I got that messaging

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Speaker 4: from somebody.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of blurring of the lines between how

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Speaker 1: your parents would feel, how you would feel, and how

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Speaker 1: your child might feel. And so you're saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't like it if my child grows up and

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Speaker 1: says that to me. There's a way that patterns and

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Speaker 1: families are passed down through the generations based on how

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Speaker 1: each generation is raised. And I wonder if you could

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Speaker 1: tell us a little bit more about your parents and

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Speaker 1: what you know about their upbringing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, my father, he was raised in a family. His

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Speaker 4: father was in the Second World War and he came, yeah,

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Speaker 4: came home, started a family. And my dad just mentioned

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Speaker 4: one time that he basically just said, I was a

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Speaker 4: tank driver in the Second World War. Don't ever ask

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Speaker 4: me about it again. So you know, emotions that things

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Speaker 4: like that and not spoken about in that family, nor

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Speaker 4: were they in mind. And my mom, her father passed

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Speaker 4: away when she was in her thirties from alcoholism, right.

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Speaker 1: But if there was alcoholism in the family, there probably

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Speaker 1: was a lot of erratic behavior or secrets or instability

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Speaker 1: in some way.

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Speaker 4: Probably yeah, And so.

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Speaker 1: She probably didn't have a lot of space for her

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Speaker 1: feelings as well. So there's a lot of similarities between

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Speaker 1: how you felt as a kid and probably how your

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Speaker 1: parents felt as children.

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Speaker 4: That makes sense, Jeff.

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Speaker 3: One of the things I think that's happening is that

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Speaker 3: you are justifying this paralysis that you feel by saying,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to hurt the feelings. I don't want

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Speaker 3: them to question their own parenting to me. But yet

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Speaker 3: without doing that, it's going to be is and has

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Speaker 3: been years for you of feeling really bad when you're

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Speaker 3: around them, and being terrified now that your son will

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Speaker 3: feel bad when he is around them. Now having a

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Speaker 3: conversation like that might not necessarily be pleasant, and perhaps

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Speaker 3: the feelings will be hurt, and perhaps they'll think back

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Speaker 3: and go oops. I mean, actually that's the best case

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Speaker 3: scenario that they think back and go oops. But to

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Speaker 3: the extent that they do, then they might actually change

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Speaker 3: their behavior. And I think the math here is do

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Speaker 3: you perpetuate something over many, many years? And as Laurie

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Speaker 3: was saying transgenerationally or do you actually address it because

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Speaker 3: the adult you is super clear that that's not something

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Speaker 3: that's good for you even today uncertainly wouldn't be something

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Speaker 3: that's good for your son.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. A big part of like the I guess called

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Speaker 4: the work that I've done over the last few years

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Speaker 4: is feeling like in an attempt to not have to

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Speaker 4: have that conversation, and I guess potentially like have my

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Speaker 4: feelings invalidated further as just trying to change my relationship

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Speaker 4: with that messaging, like oh, when my parents say this,

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Speaker 4: that's their childhood talking.

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Speaker 3: But when I see you, because we can actually see you,

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Speaker 3: the hurt in your eyes indicates that's not necessarily super successful.

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Speaker 4: No, it's not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we see you were smiling and recognition at that too.

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Speaker 1: You're aware of that, and I think that's why you

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Speaker 1: wrote to us, because that hasn't been successful. Yep. I'm wondering,

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Speaker 1: given all of this, how you felt when you learned

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Speaker 1: you were going to become a father. What was the

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Speaker 1: pregnancy like for you and your wife?

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Speaker 4: It was super exciting As it relates to my family, though,

294
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Speaker 4: I was I think afraid to tell them about the

295
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Speaker 4: choices that we were making and the things that we

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Speaker 4: wanted for our kid.

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Speaker 1: What kinds of choices, just like whether we.

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Speaker 4: Were going to do a home birth or at a

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Speaker 4: hospital birth. Are we going to stay in a small

300
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Speaker 4: apartment or are we going to co sleep with them?

301
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Speaker 4: My parents are really quick to give you advice and

302
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Speaker 4: snap judgments. Just to avoid that, I just didn't really

303
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Speaker 4: tell them much about the things that we were doing

304
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Speaker 4: because I just wanted to be free to do the

305
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Speaker 4: things that my partner and I wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: Right, Except you weren't exactly free because you were trapped

307
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Speaker 1: by having to edit yourself. Yeah, so you weren't free

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Speaker 1: at all. In fact, what I think about is that

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Speaker 1: you say in your letter you really want your child

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Speaker 1: to have a close relationship with his grandparents, and I

311
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Speaker 1: think you want to have a close relationship with your parents,

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Speaker 1: but a different one. And if you avoid them by

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Speaker 1: we're not going to tell them what we're doing with

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Speaker 1: the baby, I'm going to edit myself around them because

315
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Speaker 1: if they make a comment, it will devastate me, or

316
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Speaker 1: it will make me question myself, or it'll leave me

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Speaker 1: in a funk for two hours. Whatever it is, you're

318
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Speaker 1: not going to be able to have that closer relationship

319
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Speaker 1: with them, and having a baby is a real transition

320
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Speaker 1: in a really good time to redefine relationships for the better.

321
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Speaker 1: And what this really does is it really kind of

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Speaker 1: forces you to emotionally move into the adult space and say, wait,

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Speaker 1: I'm the parent now, I'm an adult now, and so

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Speaker 1: how can I be more of an adult around my parent?

325
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Speaker 1: So when your parents say we use this method with

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Speaker 1: you because we think that tough love makes people more resilient,

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Speaker 1: and you're just a sensitive millennial, well guess what. I

328
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Speaker 1: guess it didn't work because you are sensitive, So it

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Speaker 1: didn't make you more resilient, and they're having trouble seeing that,

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Speaker 1: and so I think you are too. So when you

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Speaker 1: talk about, oh, I have to be really careful about

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Speaker 1: what I say around my parents because they may say

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Speaker 1: something that will devastate me. We want to help you

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Speaker 1: get to a different place with that.

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Speaker 3: Please do so your partner, how does she respond when

336
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320
Speaker 3: those kinds of he looks ridiculous in that? How does

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Speaker 3: she respond when they make comments like that?

338
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Speaker 4: She's been pretty unfazed by it over the years. She's

339
00:19:11,919 --> 00:19:15,439
Speaker 4: just like such a kind person, gives everyone the benefit

340
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Speaker 4: of the doubt and that thus far it's been Oh,

341
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Speaker 4: they don't really mean it. They love you a lot.

342
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Speaker 4: But actually, right before I wrote the letter, sort of

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Speaker 4: when it first affected her, my parents made a comment

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Speaker 4: about like, oh, that looks ridiculous, and I saw how

345
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Speaker 4: much it hurt her, and that was the breaking point

346
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Speaker 4: for me. It's like this no longer affects just me.

347
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Speaker 4: I have to do something about it.

348
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Speaker 3: Right, And I think that your feeling has been that

349
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Speaker 3: it's going to be really, really difficult to do. And

350
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Speaker 3: I think as a son, your feeling has been I

351
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 3: can take it now. Whether that was wise, whether you

352
00:19:51,639 --> 00:19:53,720
Speaker 3: should be taking it or should have taken it so long,

353
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Speaker 3: I don't know. But as a husband and now as

354
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Speaker 3: a father, it's a fight you need to have. The

355
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Speaker 3: three people you mentioned in your letter that you've had

356
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Speaker 3: some experience in asking them to either use that language

357
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Speaker 3: or to not do those things. Could you tell us

358
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Speaker 3: a little bit about how you brought that up with

359
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Speaker 3: them and what the reactions were.

360
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Speaker 4: Yeah, over the course of years, they had just like

361
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,359
Speaker 4: constantly made comments about appearance, like you know, my body

362
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Speaker 4: and my brother's body, like things that we have no

363
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Speaker 4: control over. There was one night. Actually it was my

364
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Speaker 4: partner Liz. We left and she was like, it's not

365
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Speaker 4: okay that your parents say that. I think you're beautiful.

366
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Speaker 4: And I went home and I called my mom and

367
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Speaker 4: it yeah, I was a snotty, crying mess and told

368
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Speaker 4: her like, when you say those things, it makes me

369
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Speaker 4: feel really bad and I've been working really hard to

370
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Speaker 4: acceect and love myself for those things, and it just

371
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 4: really hurts. I'd appreciate it if you didn't. And her

372
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 4: response was something along the lines of get over it.

373
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Speaker 4: And she hasn't mentioned it since then, So in that way,

374
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Speaker 4: I guess it was a success. But I wish that

375
00:21:03,679 --> 00:21:05,160
Speaker 4: if I brought it up now, that we could talk

376
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Speaker 4: about it comfortably and like adults. But she kind of

377
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Speaker 4: fought back, and then it's just like it never happened.

378
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Speaker 1: It's not like it never happened because she felt blamed

379
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,799
Speaker 1: or criticized even though that wasn't your intention. And yet

380
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,439
Speaker 1: she got the message because she hasn't brought it up since,

381
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 1: so the conversation did happen, but she gets so injured

382
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,080
Speaker 1: she doesn't hear it. I feel hurt by this. What

383
00:21:29,159 --> 00:21:31,879
Speaker 1: she hears is you were a bad mother. And that's

384
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Speaker 1: where she starts to defend herself. But she heard it,

385
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,200
Speaker 1: and so that's a start. That's an opening that gives

386
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: us a little bit of hope that maybe something different

387
00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:41,959
Speaker 1: can happen.

388
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's how I deal with things. You know,

389
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 4: if a friend comes to me and is like, hey,

390
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 4: upset me that you can come to this thing, or like, oh,

391
00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:53,239
Speaker 4: I'm a terrible friend.

392
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: Right. Instead of taking the message that your friend is saying,

393
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 1: I want to be closer with you and you're important

394
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Speaker 1: to me. And that's why I was upset by this,

395
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,600
Speaker 1: you hear it as oh God, I'm a horrible person.

396
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: I think your mom do just something similar where instead

397
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: of saying, oh, my son wants to be closer with me,

398
00:22:10,439 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: she hears I'm a terrible mom.

399
00:22:13,639 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 4: Yeah. And I think one of the big reasons I

400
00:22:16,919 --> 00:22:18,639
Speaker 4: struggle so much with talking about it is I look

401
00:22:18,679 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 4: at my mom, and in so many ways I see.

402
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 3: Myself in what ways do you see yourself?

403
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 4: Mostly in the ways that she responds to criticisms like

404
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 4: that she kind of shuts down, and I shut down.

405
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 3: But you get defensive and say things like oh you

406
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 3: think you got problems?

407
00:22:36,879 --> 00:22:37,800
Speaker 4: No, I just shut down.

408
00:22:38,159 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 1: You shut down, it's self flagellate.

409
00:22:40,399 --> 00:22:40,679
Speaker 4: Right.

410
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: Do you do this with Liz? Also? Like which she

411
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 1: has something to bring up with you? How do you

412
00:22:46,159 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 1: respond to her.

413
00:22:47,439 --> 00:22:51,240
Speaker 4: We've just had such open, honest dialogue from day one

414
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 4: that I feel comfortable bringing those things up. I'm trying

415
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 4: to get better at talking about my needs and my boundaries,

416
00:22:57,439 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 4: and there's been a couple times where I've mentioned them

417
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 4: and then the next day feel really guilty, But generally

418
00:23:03,159 --> 00:23:04,840
Speaker 4: it's very healthy, open conversation.

419
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 3: That's great news, though. It is great news that you

420
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 3: found someone what makes you feel about yourself so differently

421
00:23:11,919 --> 00:23:13,719
Speaker 3: than your parents did. It's lovely.

422
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 4: It feels really great.

423
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we see you tearing up. It's really meaningful to you.

424
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 3: That phone conversation. That example who gave us with your mom?

425
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Speaker 3: Do you have an example with your dad?

426
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 5: Hmmm.

427
00:23:26,679 --> 00:23:30,639
Speaker 4: I've never really talked to him about any of that

428
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 4: kind of stuff before, called him out on things. He

429
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,759
Speaker 4: does like to point out past mistakes and you know,

430
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 4: off the coff just you're so stupid, and I definitely

431
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:40,559
Speaker 4: just I'd take it.

432
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 3: So this would be new territory for you to bring

433
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:45,239
Speaker 3: it up with him.

434
00:23:45,639 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, he responds the opposite way to my mom, he'll explode.

435
00:23:50,159 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 4: He'll just get angry and kind of run off.

436
00:23:53,159 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: What about your brother, how has he dealt with this

437
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 1: as he's grown up.

438
00:23:57,919 --> 00:24:00,719
Speaker 4: I have two brothers, and they've both kind of said

439
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 4: I always say those things because they want the best

440
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 4: for us and want us to succeed.

441
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 3: But do they own the fact that it's very painful

442
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,239
Speaker 3: as you do? Not at all? Do they have kids?

443
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:13,639
Speaker 1: Is this the first grandchild?

444
00:24:13,919 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's the first one.

445
00:24:15,159 --> 00:24:18,719
Speaker 1: It sounds like there's this sense of isolation too. You

446
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: know sometimes when you grow up in a household and

447
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 1: there's something about the way that you felt heard or unheard,

448
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 1: and everybody else in the family is sort of like

449
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 1: it's not a big deal, right, And then you're sort

450
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: of labeled as the person who is overly sensitive or

451
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: problematic in some way, and so the problem becomes, oh,

452
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,759
Speaker 1: it's you, because we deal with this just fine. And

453
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: I think that that probably makes you question the validity

454
00:24:52,399 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 1: of what you're feeling. And so you have Liz who

455
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,759
Speaker 1: can say, wow, as an outsider, I saw that, and

456
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: I did not like the way your parents treated you.

457
00:25:01,439 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 1: I don't like what they said about your appearance. So

458
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: there's that reality check there, But I imagine that it

459
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,999
Speaker 1: was very hard growing up when people were saying, well,

460
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,519
Speaker 1: you're just sensitive, so whatever you're feeling, this hurt, this anger,

461
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: buck up.

462
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,719
Speaker 4: Yeah it's tough because I you kind of summed that

463
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 4: up really well. But in addition to all that, I

464
00:25:26,159 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 4: I do feel like I was. I was maybe like

465
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 4: the hard kid in her family. At least I'm reminded

466
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 4: that I was a.

467
00:25:31,879 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 3: Lot because you had feelings.

468
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 4: Probably I struggled in junior high. You know, I dealt

469
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,240
Speaker 4: with anxiety and I was depressed. I you know, I

470
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,239
Speaker 4: was bullied, didn't have a lot of friends in elementary school.

471
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 4: When I was really young, like my son's age, Apparently

472
00:25:50,639 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 4: I cried a lot. My parents will tell me like

473
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,919
Speaker 4: how how terrible I was as a kid because I

474
00:25:55,919 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 4: cried so much. On more than one occasion, they've told

475
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,359
Speaker 4: me like they considered putting me up for adoption, which

476
00:26:01,679 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 4: I'm like, holy shit, Like what kind of things were

477
00:26:05,399 --> 00:26:06,519
Speaker 4: you telling me as a kid that.

478
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 3: I they told you that as a kid.

479
00:26:08,439 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 4: They told me that as an adult, but they actually.

480
00:26:10,639 --> 00:26:12,559
Speaker 3: Said that we were thinking it's something we're putting up

481
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 3: adoption because you're crying so much.

482
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, or that I was just like such a hard child.

483
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: So you were basically labeled difficult early on for being human.

484
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: As you know, you have a baby yourself. Babies cry,

485
00:26:28,399 --> 00:26:32,999
Speaker 1: That's how they communicate. In fact, that is their survival mechanism.

486
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 1: So if a baby is uncomfortable in any way, they're hungry,

487
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: they're tired, they're saying, hey, I need help, come here,

488
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 1: comfort me. That's the only way they can communicate. And

489
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: so it sounds like, from even being a newborn, your

490
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: parents are saying, we don't want that kind of communication.

491
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 1: We want happy, pleasant communication, and anything else is quote

492
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,919
Speaker 1: unquote difficult. And I wonder what it's like for you

493
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: now when your son cries, what comes up in you.

494
00:27:08,399 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 4: Just like patient with them and hold them and tell

495
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 4: them that it's okay and that I love him anyways.

496
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 1: Do you notice what you said, I love him anyways

497
00:27:16,159 --> 00:27:18,239
Speaker 1: like I love you, despite the fact you're doing this

498
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,279
Speaker 1: very normal thing. So just to notice how much your

499
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,759
Speaker 1: parents have seeped into you. It's it's just you're showing

500
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: him that I love you and let me help you here.

501
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: I know you're calling out to me for help, and

502
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: your son is not being difficult there's not loving him

503
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: despite the fact that he's crying. And I think that

504
00:27:42,159 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 1: part of the reason that's still in you is because

505
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: you haven't accepted that in yourself. That the work here

506
00:27:48,439 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: is really about how are you going to reframe for yourself,

507
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:57,759
Speaker 1: whether you are a person who is difficult, whether you

508
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,719
Speaker 1: are too much. I think you have this sense of

509
00:28:00,879 --> 00:28:04,039
Speaker 1: I'm too much. I don't want to approach my parents

510
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: about this because that will be too much.

511
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 4: Yeah. And you know, over the last few years of

512
00:28:12,439 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 4: realizing that I deal with normal human things and talking

513
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 4: about them with friends and be like, oh, you know,

514
00:28:17,679 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 4: I X, Y Z, And then the next day I'd

515
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 4: be like, I shouldn't have told them those things, Like

516
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 4: I'm just like I feel like, oh, I probably lost

517
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 4: them as a friend because I burden them with my feelings.

518
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: Again, I stop, you burden them with your feelings, Yeah,

519
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 3: because that's the unfortunate legacy of your upbringing, that feelings

520
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: are burdensome, they make you a difficult child, one worthy

521
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 3: perhaps of considering adoption, because this kid has just things

522
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 3: called feelings, and they're making a mess. When you have

523
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: these wounds which you carry with you, and the wounds

524
00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: are still there, and you're getting freshly wounded each time

525
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 3: you interact with your parents. There is nothing you can

526
00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 3: do to reframe that, to manage that, to dismiss it,

527
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 3: that will make that not hurt. And I think that

528
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 3: this idea of let me go to therapy so I

529
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: can learn how to tolerate and not be too upset

530
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 3: when you tell me that you went home and you

531
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:23,719
Speaker 3: called your mum and I think you said you were

532
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 3: a blubbering, sobbing miss. And this is an adult and

533
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: this is recent. It's the proof right that this still hurts.

534
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 3: And it does, Jeff, because it should, because when somebody

535
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 3: speaks to you that way and treats you that way,

536
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 3: especially with the history, it has to hurt. You said, yes,

537
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 3: I think I'm strong enough to do it for my son.

538
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 3: Now I would love you to be strong enough to

539
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:50,999
Speaker 3: do it for yourself, and your son can benefit from that.

540
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 3: But it's you that really needs to be able to

541
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 3: do it. You're the one that needs to be able

542
00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 3: to communicate to your parents. You, guys, I can't keep

543
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 3: hurting every time I'm around you. It's not something I

544
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,239
Speaker 3: want to keep doing, and I'm sure it's not something

545
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 3: you want to keep doing.

546
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Thing about feelings in your household was that feelings

547
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: were dangerous, Feelings were messy, Feelings made people uncomfortable. And

548
00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: what I think your parents couldn't see because of the

549
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 1: way they grew up where feelings were also dangerous and

550
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: uncomfortable and messy and inconvenient, was that when you had feelings,

551
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 1: it was about them and their inability to tolerate their

552
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: own feelings. So when you had feelings, it brought up

553
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: feelings in them. You cried. They thought, Oh no, maybe

554
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm a bad parent. My kid's unhappy. I don't know

555
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: how to do that. I need to have my kid

556
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: be happy so that I feel good about myself and

557
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 1: as a parent myself, I can say. A million feelings

558
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: come up. There's that warm like I want to take

559
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 1: care of you and I want to help you. And

560
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 1: there's also that oh my god, the baby's crying again.

561
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: When am I ever going to sleep? And like is

562
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: this normal? Is my baby healthy? Am I doing everything right?

563
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:09,959
Speaker 3: You know?

564
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: All of those things are coming up, and to be

565
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: able to sit with those feelings, you have to really

566
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: move into that place of I've dealt with my childhood

567
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: and I'm making sure that I'm separating out my own

568
00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: relationship with feelings that was in my house when I

569
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: was growing up with how I feel about that now.

570
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: And your parents hadn't done that work, so they weren't

571
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: able to do that. But you have begun that work,

572
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 1: and you do have the opportunity to do that, and

573
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: so you won't be in this place of overcompensating. Like, okay,

574
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: so when my son is crying, I have to only

575
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: feel like these warm, loving feelings toward my child. You

576
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: can also feel this is really hard. I can't believe

577
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 1: the kid is crying again, right, Like, that's okay to

578
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 1: feel that. You know, you'll respond to your child and

579
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: you'll fold him and feed him and change a staper

580
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: or whatever needs to happen. But you can also say

581
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: to Liz like, know, hey, you got this one. I know,

582
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: or she'll say to you, you got this one right,

583
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: And that's okay to have these moments of you know, God,

584
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: this is really hard, I wish this kid would just

585
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: leave me alone for an hour. And also love your

586
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: kid with you know, every fiber of your being. And

587
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: both of those things are true. Your parents couldn't integrate

588
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:31,239
Speaker 1: those two things.

589
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:53,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, we do have some advice for you, and I

590
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,959
Speaker 3: think what we need to preface and say is that

591
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 3: what's important here is what you can message to them,

592
00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: the clarity with which you'll do it, and which will

593
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 3: be necessary to maintain it. The mark of whether they

594
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 3: hear you is not going to occur in the moment.

595
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 3: It's going to occur when they change or not their behavior,

596
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: because that's what happened in that incident with your mom.

597
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: She kind of heard it, that made excuses and rebuffed,

598
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 3: but then she stopped saying that thing that you asked

599
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 3: her to stop saying. Sort Of the conversation itself would

600
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 3: probably not be a good indication about whether you got through.

601
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 3: It might be, but you're going to have to reserve

602
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 3: judgment until you see what changes in terms of behavior.

603
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: Okay, Jeff, I was thinking about how in your family,

604
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: resilience meant that you don't have feelings, and the reality

605
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: is that you become more resilient when you can actually

606
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: feel your feelings. That's a lesson that you've learned as

607
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: you've moved into adulthood, and one of your roles as

608
00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: a parent is to be that child's teacher, and as

609
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: you move into this more adult place with your feelings,

610
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: which is not the helpless place you were as a child,

611
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: but the more empowered place, a place we have agency

612
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 1: to respond differently and to do something different with those

613
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,720
Speaker 1: feelings as an adult. That's a lesson that you're learning

614
00:34:28,720 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: for yourself, and you can also be a teacher of

615
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: those lessons to the rest of your family.

616
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, your parents don't really understand this feelings thing, and

617
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 3: you do. And do you understand how human that makes you,

618
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: how important that is? And this is something that you

619
00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 3: need to teach them. They might not be the most

620
00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 3: willing students, but this is something you need to come

621
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 3: at as a son who's understood something and learns something

622
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 3: about life. They have not, and this is your attempt

623
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: to teach them that. And why we're emphasizing this aspect

624
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 3: of teacher because when you embody that, it gives you

625
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: a different stature, It gives you a different kind of

626
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: emotional resiliency in that moment because you're coming from a

627
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,640
Speaker 3: place of wisdom. I know something Mom and Dad that

628
00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: you don't and that you really should, So I'm going

629
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 3: to try and convey it to you. You don't say that,

630
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: but that's the mindset with which you approach them, and

631
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 3: we think you need to speak to them separately because

632
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 3: they are so similar in their orientation, they would just

633
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 3: reinforce one another and then it would be very difficult

634
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 3: to get through. So we think you should start with

635
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: your mom and then talk with your dad soon thereafter.

636
00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 3: Would like you to say, mom, being a dad myself

637
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,400
Speaker 3: has given me a lot of thoughts about my life.

638
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 3: And I recognize really clearly that you and Ed thought

639
00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 3: that by issuing these kinds of comments and criticisms, I

640
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 3: should be able to take it and it will toughen

641
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: me up. But as you know, I'm a sensitive millennial,

642
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 3: so that didn't quite work. And then you'll say, and

643
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 3: I am so glad it didn't, because I can experience

644
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 3: my feelings and I can be in touch with them,

645
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: and because I am, I have a request for you.

646
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 3: I want to feel closer to you, and I want

647
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 3: my son to feel close to you, and so I

648
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 3: need you to change your strategy. I need you to

649
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 3: understand that when you criticize me and put me down,

650
00:36:57,240 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 3: even if it's sometimes jokingly, it actually hurts. And I

651
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: don't want to hurt when I am with you, and

652
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 3: I know you don't want me to, So I'm asking

653
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: you to do something really difficult, and that is change

654
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 3: a habit you have, and I want you to instead

655
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 3: of pointing out deficits, I want you to be supportive.

656
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: I want you to be loving, I want you to

657
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,760
Speaker 3: be encouraging. Those are things I want to hear from you,

658
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 3: And those are the things I want my son to

659
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 3: hear from you.

660
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: And you can say to them that those comments don't

661
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 1: make me stronger. They actually make me weaker. When I

662
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 1: feel your love, your approval, your appreciation, your respect, that's

663
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: what makes me stronger.

664
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 3: Who boy, can you tell us more about the Who boy?

665
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 3: You just kind of out of there.

666
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 4: I'm just going over all the things in my head

667
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 4: of like how they're going to respond, which I shouldn't

668
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 4: because that's what's kept me from saying things in the past.

669
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: But when you do go over them in your head,

670
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 3: it makes you feel what so scared? Scared?

671
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 4: Yeah?

672
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 3: What's the scary thing that can happen?

673
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 4: Just having them not be receptive to it or downplay.

674
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 3: It or And if you are a teacher, Jeff, are

675
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 3: you scared if your students don't quite get it yet?

676
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 3: That is that a scary thing. Nope, right, it's not.

677
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: And you're a teacher here.

678
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,720
Speaker 4: It's so hard to break out of the child parent

679
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 4: thing and see them as an equal adult where I

680
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 4: can teach.

681
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 3: They're not equal. You are a teacher to them, is

682
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: my point. And that's the point too. If you try

683
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 3: to see them as equal, it's difficult. You need to

684
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 3: see them as not knowing something very fundamental that you do.

685
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 3: And Jeff, this is not a one time lesson. This

686
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,720
Speaker 3: is a lesson that's going to have to be repeated.

687
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 3: You're going to have to assume this with them for

688
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 3: a long time. And it's time you did assument because

689
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:14,720
Speaker 3: somebody should, right.

690
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: So instead of approaching them from that place of like

691
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: when your mom hurt you before, we're not saying don't

692
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 1: feel that you will feel what you felt as a child.

693
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: That's okay. It's normal to feel hurt when somebody says

694
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: something hurtful, especially people that you love, especially people that

695
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: you feel like they're not seeing who you are or

696
00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 1: appreciating who you are. And so instead of responding from

697
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: that place, it's very tender for you, and it takes

698
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: you back to that old state of mind that I

699
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 1: can't do anything about this. You are a parent now

700
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: and you have choices. So if they don't heed what

701
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: you say in the moment when something happens, like they say, oh,

702
00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 1: you know, the baby looks so funny, you may have

703
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: to for a second be the child in your mind.

704
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 1: Go through that in your mind. Okay, here's my reaction

705
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: as the helpless child. But now I'm a teacher and

706
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 1: these people need me to teach them so thing, and

707
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 1: you can say, very gently, I'm reminding you that it

708
00:40:13,720 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: would feel so much better if you would say, hey,

709
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 1: he looks so adorable. Those comments would make me feel stronger,

710
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: would make my son feel stronger, and would also bring

711
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: us closer to you. And so, no matter what comes

712
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 1: out of these conversations, the good news that we're hearing

713
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 1: is that already you're being a good parent to yourself,

714
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: that you understand the importance of feeling something and acknowledging

715
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: those feelings and acknowledging those feelings in other people. And

716
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: that's what's going to make you a good parent to yourself,

717
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: to your son, and to your parents who need a

718
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: little bit of reparenting.

719
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:10,680
Speaker 3: Yes, Jeff, one more thing might get upset your Dad

720
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 3: might get angry, and if I get you correctly, that

721
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 3: will make you feel after the fact guilty. And I

722
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 3: want to let you know that your thermostat for guilt

723
00:41:26,240 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: is set a little low. It's not really correct, so

724
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: you will feel guilty when you should not, and so

725
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 3: you're going to have to disregard it because you're going

726
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 3: to feel afterwards, especially if there was a bruhaha, which

727
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 3: they might be like, oh, their feelings might be hurt,

728
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 3: they might be upset, they might be bewildered. They'll get

729
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 3: over it because they do care about you and you

730
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 3: care about them. But you do have to say to yourself,

731
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 3: this was necessary. I didn't do anything wrong. In fact,

732
00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 3: I did something hugely important. And by the way, not

733
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 3: just for me, not just for my son, not just

734
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 3: for Liz, but for my brothers and for their future children,

735
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 3: because I'm enough to be the teacher here and I

736
00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 3: am taking that mental.

737
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're giving your parents a gift that they

738
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 1: didn't have growing up. They never had someone say it

739
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,720
Speaker 1: is okay to feel this, and this is how people

740
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: get closer.

741
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, sorry, yeah.

742
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: See we just even just apologizing for your tears. That's

743
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: that message that you got that it's not okay to

744
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 1: feel So how do you feel about trying this this week?

745
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 3: Oh?

746
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 4: I so don't want to, but I know that it's necessary.

747
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: Well, So when you say I so don't want to,

748
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: who's talking the child or the teacher?

749
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 4: The child, of course, the child.

750
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: So I want to ask the teacher. I want to

751
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 1: ask the teacher. Yes, how do you feel about trying

752
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: this out this week? Knowing what you know about life

753
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: and how important this lesson is?

754
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: Ah, I recognize the importance of it. I do not

755
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 4: look forward to it, but I understand how important it is,

756
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 4: especially for my son and my partner and as you say,

757
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 4: my siblings, which I yeah, I hadn't even thought about

758
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 4: in this equation, but that's necessary and something I have

759
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 4: to do.

760
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 1: Let me just reframe it one more time for you.

761
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: I want to ask you the question again, but I

762
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: want to orient it differently. Imagine you're going to talk

763
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: to your son about this one day when he's able

764
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: to understand it. Right, So you're giving him that message

765
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: anyway by the way you treat him, by the way

766
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: you acknowledge his feelings, by the way you and Liz

767
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: interact with him. But one day, somewhat beside your parents,

768
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: is going to give your son the message is not

769
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: okay to feel somebody in the world will do that,

770
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 1: And you, as his teacher, are going to have a

771
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: conversation with him when he comes to you and says that.

772
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 1: Do you feel about having that conversation with him?

773
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 4: Empowered?

774
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, just to be able to just to be able

775
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 5: to pass that ability along to my son, It's just

776
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 5: it's something I've struggled with so much for my whole life,

777
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 5: and to be able to give that to him and

778
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 5: seems like a gift and to create.

779
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: A different legacy for him.

780
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

781
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: And so when you think about being the teacher and

782
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 1: having this conversation with your parents, that's the perspective that

783
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: we want you to take. Remember you're the teacher, and

784
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: I know it's a lot of recalibration for you, separating

785
00:44:59,240 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: the little boy that you were from the wise teacher

786
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: that you've become.

787
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 4: Thank you for the encouragement.

788
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 3: Well, but Jeff, it's completely true. Just think from it.

789
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 3: How much more sophisticated emotionally are you than they are?

790
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,760
Speaker 3: How much more of an understanding of emotions do you

791
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,720
Speaker 3: have than they do? I mean, it's a gulf. You

792
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 3: recognize that right that you are in a position to

793
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 3: talk about emotions in a way that's far knowledgeable than

794
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 3: they are.

795
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just so hard to break out of the

796
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 4: just the idea that your parents are above you and

797
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,280
Speaker 4: have it all figured out and that you have could

798
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 4: ever possibly teach them something.

799
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: What you're doing here is not just teaching your parents.

800
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: You're reparenting yourself. Yeah, you're being a good parent to yourself.

801
00:45:55,240 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 1: And you have a choice every time you go back

802
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: into that place of oh, I can't do this, or

803
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: to take a breath and say, wait a minute, I

804
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,320
Speaker 1: need to learn how to be a good parent to

805
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: myself because the stakes are very high. If I can't

806
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: be a good parent to myself, no matter how good

807
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: my intentions are, I will not be a good parent

808
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 1: to my son. So I have to do this first

809
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:26,040
Speaker 1: with myself in order to give my son the thing

810
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: that I want to give him more than anything else

811
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: in the world.

812
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's true, that's all I want to give him.

813
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: You will do this, You will have this conversation. It

814
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 3: will go as it will go, but you will do

815
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 3: your best after you've had it, and after you know

816
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: how difficult it was to have. How impressed wul yourself?

817
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 4: Will you be very proud?

818
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 3: Good? So yes, do it and then feel really proud

819
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,280
Speaker 3: of yourself for doing it.

820
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: And I want to say one last thing. You mentioned

821
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 1: that that time that your parents made a comment about

822
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: your appearance, that it was Liz who said to you

823
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: that's not okay. And you then went home and called

824
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: and said I didn't like that, right, and then the

825
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 1: behavior stopped. The conversation didn't go swimmingly, but the behavior stopped.

826
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: I want you to as part of this and liszt Liz,

827
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: just to let her know that you're doing this, so

828
00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: that you have that support going in. We want you

829
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: to tell her before you make these calls. Here's what

830
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to do. Here's the rationale behind it. Here

831
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: is my role as a teacher. Here is how that's

832
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:48,240
Speaker 1: going to help me become a better parent to myself,

833
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 1: which in turn will make me a better parent to

834
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 1: our child. Here's how it's going to help you. Here's

835
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 1: how it's going to help my brothers. And here's how

836
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: in some way it will help my parents.

837
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 4: I can do this.

838
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: Great good. Thank you, Okay, Well, we look forward to

839
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: hearing what happens, and remember we'll be rooting for you.

840
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 4: Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to

841
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 4: talk with me.

842
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 3: I liked him a lot, a lot. Yeah, what a

843
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 3: lovely person, and I'm so glad he found a lovely wife. Yeah.

844
00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 1: He was in such a common predicament with being sort

845
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,720
Speaker 1: of caught between the childhood self and the adult self

846
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:43,760
Speaker 1: that he's started to grow into.

847
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 3: And what you have to do in that scenario is

848
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: you have to use your adult self to do something

849
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 3: that feels really unnatural and really scary, but it's in

850
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:57,720
Speaker 3: the doing of it that you become the adult.

851
00:48:59,040 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

852
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that he has Liz because I think

853
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: she's going to be a great support for him when

854
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: the child walks into the metaphorical classroom and the teachers

855
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 1: trying to talk.

856
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: And I'm really glad he has his son because his

857
00:49:09,720 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 3: son has forced him to grow up.

858
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

859
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 3: I think for him having that conversation that he's so

860
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:20,240
Speaker 3: afraid to have will be such a growth experience that

861
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 3: it will make it all worthwhile.

862
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of those things where you see

863
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: the benefit in the long term.

864
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 3: You're listening to deer therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back

865
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 3: after a quick break.

866
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: You're listening to Deer Therapists from iHeartRadio.

867
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 3: So we heard back from Jeff, and I'm really looking

868
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 3: forward to this one. I hope it went well for him.

869
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was not an easy role reversal we were

870
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: asking him to try. So let's go hear what happened.

871
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 4: Hey, Louri, Hey guy, it's Jeff. So I did it.

872
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 4: I had the conversations that I never thought I'd be

873
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: able to have with my folks. Leading up to it,

874
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 4: I was super nervous, like nauseous even, but after talking

875
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 4: it through with Liz, realized that that was the child

876
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 4: in me, not the adult or the teacher. As you

877
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 4: had mentioned, I had to really remain mindful and remind

878
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 4: myself that I was doing the right thing and that

879
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 4: it's okay to express those needs and those feelings. I

880
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 4: approached both of the conversations as you had mentioned, that

881
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 4: I've thought a lot about what it means to be

882
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 4: a parent and a child, and that I understand their

883
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 4: criticisms and the way that they raised us to not

884
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 4: acknowledge hard feelings, that that was just their way of

885
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 4: fostering strength and resilience in us, and that while I

886
00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 4: appreciate and love them for all that they've done for me,

887
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 4: that those comments and flippant dismissals of concerns and feelings

888
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 4: that I that I have and that people have are

889
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 4: not okay, That they hurt and they can make them

890
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 4: feel really small or invalid, and that in the future,

891
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 4: I'd appreciate it if they could be mindful of those

892
00:51:01,720 --> 00:51:04,560
Speaker 4: things and either don't say anything at all or instead

893
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 4: act in ways that uplift and encourage, especially as it

894
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 4: relates to their grandchild. The conversation with my mom didn't

895
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,480
Speaker 4: go so great. There were moments where she'd said, like,

896
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 4: you should know that I really love you, and her

897
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,720
Speaker 4: saying like, okay, okay, I'll try. But she told me

898
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 4: that I don't really have it that bad, and that

899
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 4: I'm being too sensitive and that I'm essentially asking her

900
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 4: and my father to censor themselves. She said it's naive

901
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 4: or even foolish for me to ask for someone to

902
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 4: change their character, and that she doesn't want to have

903
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 4: to constantly have to think about what she says in

904
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 4: front of me, and that if we raise our son

905
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 4: like this, that he won't be able to take negative

906
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 4: feedback as he gets older. So I think I had

907
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 4: a lot of hope that it'd be this magical conversation

908
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 4: and I would finally feel seen, but I really didn't.

909
00:51:57,200 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 4: It was really hard. I felt like I did a

910
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 4: pretty good job in standing my ground, and I'm proud

911
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 4: of myself for not backing down on my needs and

912
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 4: feelings and trying my best to remember that these are

913
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,760
Speaker 4: reasonable requests. I wasn't a blubbering mess, but I did

914
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 4: leave the conversation feeling really upside down, and the child

915
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 4: within me felt really invalidated. The conversation with my father, thankfully,

916
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 4: it went really well. He was really gracious and kind.

917
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 4: He listened, He acknowledged that he can be this way,

918
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 4: and he apologized for it. Said that it was never

919
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 4: his intention to make me feel small or shamed, but

920
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 4: that it was a misguided way of showing affection, poking fun,

921
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 4: and that he'll be more mindful of it with me

922
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 4: and around his grandson. He noted that he's always had

923
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 4: a hard time talking about feelings, especially difficult ones, and

924
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 4: said he was really encouraged and happy to see that

925
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 4: I'm getting better at doing it myself. I left that

926
00:52:54,960 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 4: conversation feeling proud, relieved, and hopeful for the future. I mean,

927
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 4: don't get me wrong, I've got an emotional hangover that's

928
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 4: going to last a week, but I feel that I've

929
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,880
Speaker 4: done something incredibly important for myself and for my family,

930
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 4: maid some groundwork so I feel more comfortable expressing myself

931
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 4: and setting boundaries. I just want to say thanks again

932
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,480
Speaker 4: for helping me to see that the approach I was

933
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,840
Speaker 4: taking changing my relationship with pain rather than actively working

934
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 4: to heal that I wasn't working for me. But you

935
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,040
Speaker 4: made me feel seen and heard, and you gave me

936
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 4: the encouragement to feel like I could have those conversations

937
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,320
Speaker 4: with my parents and that it was normal, that I'm

938
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 4: normal and it's reasonable to ask for those things. So

939
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 4: thank you so much. Thanks LORI, Thanks Guy.

940
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,760
Speaker 1: Well. What people can't see is that while we're listening

941
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 1: to this voicemail, you and I were nodding and smiling

942
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,760
Speaker 1: a lot. And I think that's because even though the

943
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: conversation with his mother was very difficult, it's still set

944
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 1: the groundwork for some internal work that he's doing himself,

945
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: where he is being the teacher and yes, the child

946
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: part of him felt wounded by that conversation, and the

947
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,720
Speaker 1: child part of him felt gratified by the conversation with

948
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:14,320
Speaker 1: his father. But I think when he goes back into

949
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 1: the teacher position, what came out of it was a

950
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 1: different way of viewing himself, his place as a parent,

951
00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: his place as a husband, his place as a son,

952
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,560
Speaker 1: and that he really has something very valuable to teach

953
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 1: everyone in his family, but particularly himself.

954
00:54:35,240 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 3: Yes, that conversation with his mom didn't go well, that

955
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 3: groundwork was established, as he said, the groundwork for him

956
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 3: to give her a look the next time she does it,

957
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 3: and for her to give him a look, but pause

958
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 3: and maybe not do it for the third time. And

959
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,840
Speaker 3: so I think that he actually accomplished more than he realized, right.

960
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,280
Speaker 1: And also the fact that the father was so receptive

961
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 1: to this and was able to really listen for Jeff.

962
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 1: He had not felt listened to it all by his parents,

963
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: and so to have his father really take that in

964
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: and apologize and say I'm going to be mindful of this.

965
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 1: I think. I think that when the mother does this again,

966
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: now he's got the father a little bit on board,

967
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: and that will be very helpful too.

968
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 3: And I think the bottom line here is that it's

969
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:23,400
Speaker 3: never too late to change a family dynamic, even once

970
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:26,760
Speaker 3: you're an adult. The way family dynamics work is that

971
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 3: if one person creates a real shift, it forces the

972
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 3: other people to shift as well, and that's what Jeff

973
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 3: did here. Hey fellow travelers, if you've used any of

974
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 3: our advice from the podcast in your own life, send

975
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:48,320
Speaker 3: us a quick voice memo to Luriandguy at iHeartMedia dot

976
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 3: com and tell us about it. We may include it

977
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: in a future show that brings us to the end

978
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,280
Speaker 3: of our show. For this week. Thank you so much

979
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 3: for listening. If you're enjoying the show, please take a

980
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 3: moment to rate and review it.

981
00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at lorigottlib dot

982
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

983
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:12,400
Speaker 1: one or an in Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

984
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:15,560
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

985
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

986
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,240
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

987
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

988
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 1: Our executive producers, Christopher Hasiotis, were produced and edited by

989
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 1: Mike Johns Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

990
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 1: podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

991
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 3: Next week, a woman copes with her husband's infidelity.

992
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 4: It has come out and therapy that the relations have

993
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,880
Speaker 4: been with men. However, my husband is very closed off

994
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 4: and kind of just wanted.

995
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: To go away. Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio