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Speaker 1: Warning, Today's episode contains spoilers for Joker Folioder, The Joker

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Speaker 1: is Me. This is actually a special edition of X

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Speaker 1: ray Vision.

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Speaker 2: You will be getting more of these soon.

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Speaker 3: This is called x ray Vision Extras.

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Speaker 1: And today your host Rosie Knight will be interviewing your

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Speaker 1: other host, Jason Concepcion and super producer Duel Monique, who

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Speaker 1: has also been on NPR pop Culture Happy Hour recently

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Speaker 1: talking about this very movie, asking them their feelings on

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Speaker 1: Joker Folio Door.

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Speaker 2: So welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 4: Guys.

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Speaker 2: How's it going I feeling.

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Speaker 5: I flew back from vacation week in Kawhi, the Island

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Speaker 5: of Beautiful. It was beautiful. It was amazing. Shouts to

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Speaker 5: the wonderful people of Hawaii and the island and the

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Speaker 5: natural splendor therein And I landed and I got some sleep,

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Speaker 5: and then I went to a screening of Todd Phillips's

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Speaker 5: latest masterpiece, Joker to and that was I mean, that's

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Speaker 5: a vibe shift. And to say the least, I'll say

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Speaker 5: this before we really get into it. I think it's

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Speaker 5: a courageous movie vision. I think it's a courageous and

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Speaker 5: brave vision.

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Speaker 1: I have yet to see the courageous and brave vision

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Speaker 1: as I was not int invited to go and see

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Speaker 1: a screening, and I yesterday instead of going see Joker, Folioda,

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Speaker 1: I went and saw both Godzilla movies that came out recently,

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Speaker 1: Shin Godzilla and Minus one in black and white as

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Speaker 1: part of Beyond Fest, and then I went to the

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Speaker 1: Mahro Academia movie premiere because I like to enjoy my life.

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Speaker 3: So, guys, let's talk about Joke up folly you duh?

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Speaker 2: Joel? Will you give us a rundown.

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Speaker 1: Of what the movie is about and kind of a

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Speaker 1: brief kind of recap of the situation.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So we're picking up right after Joker, So if

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Speaker 4: you saw a Joker, there's nothing in between, and you

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Speaker 4: just pick and right back up. He's in prison. And

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Speaker 4: imagine every prison movie you saw in the eighties and nineties.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly where you are. Okay, prison subs, guys, it's bad.

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Speaker 4: It's essentially a nineteen fifties mental health institution where everybody's

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Speaker 4: individually locked in their own cells. You don't share, that

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Speaker 4: seems nice. The guards are all irish and assholes for

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Speaker 4: some reason. And if you're fortunate enough, you get a

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Speaker 4: little wreck time, and then you get to go over

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Speaker 4: to the other prison where the non lethal ones are,

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Speaker 4: and there you're gonna discover Harley Quinn. What up, she's

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Speaker 4: excited to see joker. Kay, yes, listen, she's there.

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Speaker 5: She's really a big fan.

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Speaker 3: She's a big fan Bigan.

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Speaker 4: Harley Quinn is a big fan. Yes, yes, she's clearly

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Speaker 4: in the rooting section. Okay. So his lawyer and his

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Speaker 4: caseworker are there and they're like, hey, do you have

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Speaker 4: d I D and jokers? Like, I don't know, maybe

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Speaker 4: they're like, oh no, definitely, uh. Mentally you have d

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Speaker 4: I D. That's what's going on. We need you to

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Speaker 4: say that so that the court will like help you.

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Speaker 4: The court is not gonna help him, so it's gotta

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Speaker 4: go back.

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Speaker 3: Yes, this is why I find Okay, Okay, let me pause.

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Speaker 5: It's it's like, let me pouse twelve like twelve angry

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Speaker 5: men type burdhouse drama with much less suspense.

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Speaker 6: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Jason, I want to ask you a question, as

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Speaker 1: you know, someone who loves Batman like is in the Batman.

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Speaker 1: But this is not sounding very comic book accurate. Does

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Speaker 1: it feel like there's any comic book influence in that

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Speaker 1: vision of Arkham Asylum.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'll say this, the part that does attempt to

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Speaker 5: tie into the larger Batman universe that exists is kind

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Speaker 5: of like the most it's the weird it's almost the

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Speaker 5: weirdest part of the film. And the film is so

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Speaker 5: fucking weird. Like they do at the end, yes, yes,

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Speaker 5: the very gesture at being like, hey, here's how so

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Speaker 5: actually this crazy movie does lead into the Nolan verse. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: by setting up kind of like who the Joker from

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Speaker 5: the Dark Night?

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Speaker 2: Is wild?

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Speaker 5: But weirdly, it's like the most discordant part of this

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Speaker 5: of the whole thing, because it feels like the only

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Speaker 5: part of the film where Todd Phillips lost. You know,

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Speaker 5: this entire film is like Todd Phillips being like, fuck you,

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Speaker 5: I'm doing it my way. Fuck you, I'm doing it

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Speaker 5: my way. I'm doing this. So we're opening with a

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Speaker 5: musical thing. The musical songs are gonna continue on. They're

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Speaker 5: gonna go on. Also our lead can't sing, but fuck it,

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Speaker 5: like we're doing this. And then at the very end

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Speaker 5: it feels like he lost that battle of It's only

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Speaker 5: at the very end where they make the attempt to

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Speaker 5: tie this into Batman movies that exist. That felt like

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Speaker 5: he lost that because it felt like something he didn't

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Speaker 5: want to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, look, I don't want to be here,

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Speaker 1: you know me. I'm a zaz Lav critic, but I

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Speaker 1: will say Todd Phillips has actually surprisingly been very emphatic

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Speaker 1: about the fact that that was his idea and that

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Speaker 1: there's never been another time when he ever said that

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Speaker 1: Arthur Fleck was really the Joker, and so who knows,

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Speaker 1: maybe they paid him money that he agreed.

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Speaker 2: But uh, let's see how we get there first, Like Joel,

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Speaker 2: what happens in the court?

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Speaker 5: Okay? Yes, Kittinue okay.

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Speaker 4: So Joker has this awakening where he is like some

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Speaker 4: what's the song Somebody loves Me? And he's like, okay,

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Speaker 4: this woman loves me. I can transform. Now you get umbrellas?

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Speaker 4: Uh is it true? Shub thank you reference without any

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Speaker 4: music for some reason, It's crazy. The references are here,

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Speaker 4: they connect to nothing. Well, you get to the courtroom

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Speaker 4: and stands everywhere.

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Speaker 5: The references in this movie are are references from the

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Speaker 5: seventies and eighties. Incredible like these, I don't understand why,

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Speaker 5: Why is it pop culture references from the seventies and eighties.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it was just him.

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Speaker 1: It was just him basically remaking it was like ready

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Speaker 1: play a one for Martin Scorsese, So I guess this

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Speaker 1: time he was like, I guess, I bet reference some

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Speaker 1: other old stuff.

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Speaker 4: With kind of the vibes. When we get to the courthouse,

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Speaker 4: there are tons of fans, and then this sort of

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Speaker 4: movie becomes a little bit about toxic fandom for a minute, like, Okay,

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Speaker 4: the fans are here, they're rooting for him a little bit. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Harley Quinn becomes she's like really pushing him. She's like, hey, babe,

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Speaker 4: you're the Joker, and I don't even know why you're

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Speaker 4: trying to fuck around with arth reflect Dude, I don't

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Speaker 4: know him. You don't like him. They don't want him

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Speaker 4: be the Joker. She's like, I'm like, just like you, buddy,

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Speaker 4: Like we're from the same neighborhood and we have the

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Speaker 4: same problems. I hate my dad, asshole. He died and

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Speaker 4: I was happy. He's like, you were happy when your

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Speaker 4: mom died.

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Speaker 2: We're the same.

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Speaker 4: Later, Joker's lawyer comes up and he's like, uh, yeah,

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Speaker 4: I don't know if you know it. But this girl's

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Speaker 4: a liar. She's super rich, her parents are alive, and

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Speaker 4: guess what she checked herself in here. Also, she has

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Speaker 4: a master's degree in psychology, so she's playing around with you.

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Speaker 2: It's crazy. They did keep that pop.

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Speaker 4: They we can talk more about whether that works or

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Speaker 4: not later. And at this point, Joker also stops taking

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Speaker 4: his meds, and so Arthur's like, okay, I'm fully going

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Speaker 4: to embrace it. And it sort of seems to be

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Speaker 4: working like the girl likes him. He gets a conjugal visit.

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Speaker 4: It's weird. Back of court, it's super crazy. He fires

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Speaker 4: his lawyer and he starts to represent himself in full

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Speaker 4: Joker page. The judge is like, hey, look, no rules,

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Speaker 4: but this court will not become a circus, as if

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Speaker 4: he hasn't already lost all grounded.

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Speaker 6: It is effing chaos. Okay.

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Speaker 4: Questions that you may have issues up to this.

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Speaker 1: Point, Okay, So yeah, let's talk about Lee as I

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Speaker 1: believe she's known in her Lady Gaga.

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Speaker 2: How did that performance go for you?

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Speaker 3: Jason?

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Speaker 1: Tell me you said this was a visionary and courageous choice.

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Speaker 3: Do you believe that?

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Speaker 2: Goes over to Harley Quinn.

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Speaker 4: I don't.

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Speaker 5: She's like weirdly inert in this movie, a lot less

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Speaker 5: than you expect and is a lot less influential than

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Speaker 5: you expect, except for a few moments and the fact

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Speaker 5: that spoiler she outlives the joker. You know, it's She's

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Speaker 5: not a huge part of this film, really, Joelle.

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Speaker 2: Your thoughts, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: This film wanted to be a musical, but it didn't,

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Speaker 4: and it has a deep misunderstanding of what a musical

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Speaker 4: is and why musicals exist. Right, So, musicals exist so

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Speaker 4: that when you reach a point of such exhalation or depression,

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Speaker 4: you open up and saying any kind of peak emotion.

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Speaker 4: That's when you sing. There's no organization to the music

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Speaker 4: because she's partnered with Joaquin who again was a great

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Speaker 4: Johnny Cash and was able to keep in that very

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Speaker 4: limited register. It doesn't apply to the songs they selected

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Speaker 4: for him. Again, there's no musical here was involved with this.

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Speaker 4: I just can't. I'm sorry to the filmmakers, but it

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Speaker 4: just wasn't. How happening with the.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm very interested in those weird, like old timey

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Speaker 1: show tunes that they picked, like does that?

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Speaker 4: Oh nothing, here's no here's the bar for song choice.

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Speaker 4: Did it have joker gesture or a smile reference in

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Speaker 4: the song? It's allowed in the movie. I'm serious that

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Speaker 4: it was the bar. There's no other reference point for

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Speaker 4: any of the stuff. Some of these songs are performed

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Speaker 4: in full, some are performed in part. Some are reprised

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Speaker 4: literally five times. It's a chaotic experience. And they forced

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Speaker 4: God Got to try to match with her singing partner,

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Speaker 4: and it just doesn't quite work. She's trying, her voice

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Speaker 4: is still there. Let her and also let Harley Quinn

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Speaker 4: be a badass like Harley Quinn. We have so many

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Speaker 4: adaptations of this character that work really well, and for

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Speaker 4: them to come in, bring her in, sort of keep

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Speaker 4: the character, but not really let her do anything, and

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Speaker 4: again a fundamental misunderstanding of what makes Harley Harley. I've

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Speaker 4: now seen a great Harley adaptation where she has no

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Speaker 4: connection to the Joker and seen Sick where she has

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Speaker 4: a good one like a good like built off of

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Speaker 4: what her relationship with the Joker is, and they don't

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Speaker 4: want to really explore that at all, like truly, like

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Speaker 4: what is the obsession with fandom? This is a movie

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Speaker 4: about a creator exploring fandom from outside of fandom, and

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Speaker 4: therefore he can't actually critique like what's happening inside of fandom.

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Speaker 4: You know, it's just a reaction to it.

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Speaker 2: I feel, let's talk about that.

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Speaker 1: Because Jason, like something you were really moved by in

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Speaker 1: this movie, like says like the movie's basically saying fuck

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Speaker 1: you to everyone, right, Like, let's talk.

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Speaker 5: About Yeah, I'm not moved by this movie. Sorry, sorry, sorry,

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Speaker 5: I just did. I just think that. I just think

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Speaker 5: that Todd Phillips has done something very brave, which is

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Speaker 5: basically say, if you liked The Joker, my billion dollar

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Speaker 5: R rated film, a historic box office smash, The Joker,

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Speaker 5: then you are a piece of shit. You misunderstood everything

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Speaker 5: I was trying to do, and you're wrong. And now

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Speaker 5: I'm going to drag you across the rugged two hour

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Speaker 5: face of this movie and show you in detail how

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Speaker 5: fucking wrong you are to have liked this character and

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Speaker 5: liked this guy. And I think that's a crazy thing

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Speaker 5: to do and a weirdly subversive thing to do with

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Speaker 5: a megabudget movie, and it's resulted in a product that

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Speaker 5: sucks and is tortuous to watch.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the big paw Harry's it's an interesting idea.

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Speaker 4: It's really brave to.

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Speaker 5: Be like, hey, all the people who like the Joker

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Speaker 5: are just what the critics said, are weird in cell

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Speaker 5: loaners who take this shit way too seriously. Like at

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Speaker 5: one point Harley says, we got to give the people

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Speaker 5: what they want, and that felt like the thesis statement

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Speaker 5: of the entire project, which is like, hey, we got

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Speaker 5: to give them what they want. No, we don't.

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Speaker 4: But she's also so mad at the Joker at the end,

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Speaker 4: she's like, you stole the vision, you stole the illusion

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Speaker 4: by not committing to the Joker bit, and so she

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Speaker 4: walks away.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, she's like the fans stand in whose has to

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Speaker 5: be there and be disappointed with like interacting with this

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Speaker 5: talisman of fandom that she is like worshiped, and she

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Speaker 5: just has to be disappointed by the old thing she

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Speaker 5: used to watch them die violently and bleed out. And again,

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Speaker 5: I think that's a courageous vision. I think it's a

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Speaker 5: terrible fo movie, but I think it's really it's really

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Speaker 5: a wild thing to get up there and be like,

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Speaker 5: oh you like you like that, you liked what I

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Speaker 5: did before?

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Speaker 1: Fucking yeah, I actually that's what really I do agree

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Speaker 1: with you, and I do think that that is a

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Speaker 1: version of a movie like this where I would be

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Speaker 1: like a big fan of it and I'd be like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that's so interesting. I don't believe that will be this movie,

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Speaker 1: just going by how much I did not like the

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Speaker 1: first Joker film.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so let's let me wrap about the recap that

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Speaker 4: we can talk about that. Yeah, yeah, okay, So what

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Speaker 4: really works for me? So Joker is his own lawyer,

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Speaker 4: and he's Joaquin is doing a crazy like range of

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Speaker 4: like he's a Southern lawyer. He is like a British guy.

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Speaker 4: He's like bouncing back these personalities exactly, like playing lawyer

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Speaker 4: and like really trying to figure out like if you're

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Speaker 4: gonna buy into the Okay, Arthur doesn't have the idea

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Speaker 4: and he's actually making these choices if and the narrative

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Speaker 4: is not clear, so it's really choose your own adventure here,

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Speaker 4: maybe go to that. Then they bring in mister Puddles,

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Speaker 4: So if you remember the first film, it's his friend

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Speaker 4: with dwarf ism. He's played by h lay Gil in

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Speaker 4: the film, and lay Gill is my favorite part of

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Speaker 4: this movie, Like he kills his role. He came in

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Speaker 4: and said, I understand what I'm supposed to do. And

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Speaker 4: it starts. It's the only time for me where the

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Speaker 4: movie is like consciously making sense because mister Puddles gets

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Speaker 4: on the stand and he's like, yo, Arthur, like whatever

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Speaker 4: this performance is, it's fucking stupid, Like knock it off,

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Speaker 4: Like you terrified me. You really are. You were the

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Speaker 4: only person who didn't make fun of me. You gave

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Speaker 4: me dignity at work. You were my friend.

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Speaker 5: And I don't.

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Speaker 4: Understand this person in front of me. I don't understand

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Speaker 4: why you think this is funny. This is horrible and

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Speaker 4: it's awful, and he breaks Arthur. Arthur is like, I

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Speaker 4: gotta stop like pretending. This is when Gaga leaves. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 4: Harley Quinn leaves. He calls her, sings her voicemail, He's like,

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Speaker 4: come back, like why. A car bomb goes off during

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Speaker 4: the trial and he escapes, kills a lot of people.

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Speaker 4: Harvey Dent becomes two faces. Oh cool, Joker kind of escapes,

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Speaker 4: he meets Harley. Harley's like, yo, you gave up on

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Speaker 4: the illusion. I hate it. Goodbye. Joker goes back to prison,

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Speaker 4: where he is stabbed by Heath Ledger's Joker question mark,

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Speaker 4: that's the movie, guys, the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I believe his name is young inmate in the credits, Andy,

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Speaker 1: I actually did.

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Speaker 2: Look this guy up and.

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Speaker 6: He really really really.

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Speaker 2: Looks like like a Joker.

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Speaker 1: I have to say this, like, he he does look

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Speaker 1: like somebody who could play the Joker.

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Speaker 2: So like good costing.

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Speaker 3: But yes, I will say I think you guys raise

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Speaker 3: a good point.

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Speaker 1: It does seem that it would be the Joker that

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Speaker 1: we know from Heath Ledger's iconic performance because he basically cuts.

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Speaker 3: A smile into his face at the end, right, yes.

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Speaker 1: Which is not something I've seen a lot of ending

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Speaker 1: explains and stuff where they seem kind of confused about, well,

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Speaker 1: this is just how all the Jokers are, but it's not.

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Speaker 1: We know most Jokers are created by acid or falling

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Speaker 1: in the acme pit.

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Speaker 2: How did that moment go for you?

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Speaker 3: Because, like you said, I when I read about that,

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Speaker 3: I was like, you know what.

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Speaker 1: I prefer this idea that Arthur Fleck was never Joker

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Speaker 1: because it's just such a bad origin story for Joka.

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Speaker 1: And uh, Todd Phillips has said, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: never called the Joker. It was called Joker, and and

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Speaker 1: it was never the origin story of the Joker.

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Speaker 2: It was an origin story.

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Speaker 1: So he's kind of saying he was planning this from

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Speaker 1: the beginning, But how did this moment hit for you?

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Speaker 2: Like in the cinema, Jason.

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Speaker 5: It just didn't. It didn't make any None of this

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Speaker 5: movie hit and for me at all. As you're watching this,

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Speaker 5: Lady Gaga is singing, that's life and the whole thing

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Speaker 5: just wait wait, wait, wait wait are you saying, Angine weird,

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Speaker 5: that's life? Oh god, that's what the people say. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: And so you're I'm just saying, like, listen, if you

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Speaker 5: try to this is what we do on this pod, right,

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Speaker 5: because we are these people who are like, how does

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Speaker 5: this work in the cannon? If you try and engage

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Speaker 5: that part of your nerd brain, how does this work?

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Speaker 5: It doesn't. It doesn't work.

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Speaker 4: It doesn't work timeline, it's totally off.

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Speaker 5: So they have courtright somewhere of who this guy is.

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Speaker 5: They would have their problem, like I didn't they know. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: they got him, they arrested him, they fingerprinted them, they

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Speaker 5: know who the fuck this guy is. Like, it doesn't

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Speaker 5: make any sense. And if you try and do that

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Speaker 5: you'll you'll just run around in circles. It just was,

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Speaker 5: in a weird way, the perfect discordant end cap to

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Speaker 5: a completely chaotic, nine nonsensical movie that again felt purposefully

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Speaker 5: designed to make you feel like, if you like this,

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Speaker 5: if you were looking forward to it, you're dumb. Fuck you, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: you're dumb.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I will say it does seem like the

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Speaker 1: audience understood that, because we are recording this on Monday

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Speaker 1: morning and Joker didn't jo it's it's got the worst

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Speaker 1: audience score a D cinema, any sub morbi a sub

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Speaker 1: may I say, Madam Webb, of any comic book movie

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Speaker 1: made by Hollywood.

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Speaker 2: Also, I will say.

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Speaker 1: It only opened to forty million dollars, which is six

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Speaker 1: million less than the Marvels.

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Speaker 4: So I'd like to see all the comic Let's see all.

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Speaker 1: The conversations about whether this means white guys shouldn't have

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Speaker 1: a superhero.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure that's what's gonna happen.

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Speaker 4: Definitely, son As, we have to wrap, but I think

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Speaker 4: we have time for one last question, and if I

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Speaker 4: could just combine in that for you guys, DC, this

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Speaker 4: is like their fifth flop Aquaman didn't do good. We

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Speaker 4: lost on all versions of Justice League. It's been a

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Speaker 4: string of Blue Beetles, yes, missus, and with the gun

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Speaker 4: Universe coming out, we have two successes with the Reeves verse.

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Speaker 4: Is this What does this mean for DC? It doesn't

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Speaker 4: affect them at all.

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Speaker 3: I don't think it means anything for DC.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, this is actually the best thing that could have

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Speaker 1: happened for the James gunnerverse, because if this movie had

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Speaker 1: made a billion dollars again, then the execs would have said,

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Speaker 1: why isn't this included?

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Speaker 2: So this flopping is actually fantastic.

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Speaker 1: And I think that Todd Phillips being sassy about James

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Speaker 1: Gunn and the new regime is also great because James

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Speaker 1: Gunn has shown he's not afraid to bring stuff in

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Speaker 1: from the old, stuff like Blue Beetle. Also, Let's be real,

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Speaker 1: one of the best DC movies, and probably part of

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Speaker 1: why James Gunn is in this position is the Suicide Squad.

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Speaker 1: That was also a notable financial flop, but it was

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Speaker 1: a creative master work. So I think this means nothing,

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Speaker 1: and honestly, it's the best case scenario. So we don't

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Speaker 1: get stuck in this grim, gritty world when James Gunn's

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Speaker 1: universe starts.

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Speaker 5: I completely completely agree. I think that there's a world

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Speaker 5: in which guns a smart gut and he's probably seeing dailies,

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Speaker 5: weeklies and cuts of this, and I think, to your point,

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Speaker 5: the worst thing that can happen is like, this is

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Speaker 5: a success, and then you have some suits going why

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Speaker 5: don't we handle this? Why don't we hand it to

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Speaker 5: the guy who made a billion dollars with a joke,

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Speaker 5: And I'm Gunn just probably looked at this and went,

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Speaker 5: let me just step back and get out of them.

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's what Todd Phillip said. He said, they did

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Speaker 2: do with it.

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Speaker 5: So let him cook, and he's cooked, of course, and

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Speaker 5: now you know, let him cook, him cook, maybe he

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Speaker 5: self out of the ring.

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Speaker 1: Cook himself out of the running, and make this undelicious movie.

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Speaker 2: Well, I want to say, guys, thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for sharing this with me.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a follierder, I'm not the.

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Speaker 1: Target audience, and I appreciate you guys taking this the team.

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Speaker 2: And we were right, we were we were right.

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Speaker 1: We knew this and that happened, and you know what,

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Speaker 1: thank you Joel for always joining us with your insightful,

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Speaker 1: brilliant thoughts.

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Speaker 3: And yeah that this is the first edition of x

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Speaker 3: ray Extras. You will be hearing more of these soon.

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Speaker 2: What were your thoughts about Folly? You der head to

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Speaker 2: the discord and that's.

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Speaker 4: X ray.

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Speaker 5: Vision is hosted by Jason Kensepsion and Rosie Knight and

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Speaker 5: is a production of iHeart Podcasts. Our executive producers are

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Speaker 5: Joelle Smith and Aaron Kaufman. Our supervising producer is a

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Speaker 5: Boo Zafar. Our producers are Carmen Laurent and Mia Taylor.

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Speaker 5: Our theme song is by Brian Basquez.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to Soul Rubin and Chris Laude, Kenny Goodman

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Speaker 1: and Heidi Our Discord moderata