Speaker 1: On the Bechde Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and
Speaker 1: Vast start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.
Speaker 2: Bo Wow, incredible.
Speaker 3: It was me barfing and shitting at the same time.
Speaker 2: God, something really so satisfying about seeing someone just slip
Speaker 2: around in their own.
Speaker 3: Goof, especially a rich fuck slipping around in their own waist.
Speaker 2: Yeah, from both holes, just projectile both holes. And that
Speaker 2: is the thing that I remembered most strongly about this movie.
Speaker 2: And what does that mean? I was like, yeah, class commentary, mmmmmmmm,
Speaker 2: And do you remember the scene where both holes were exploding?
Speaker 2: And I think that's just like human nature. I knew
Speaker 2: that there was a deep message. And I saw this
Speaker 2: movie I think twice, and as I was returning to
Speaker 2: it last night, I was like, hmmm, when is both
Speaker 2: holes happening? Yeah, Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name
Speaker 2: is Jamie Loftis.
Speaker 3: My name is Caitlin Derante. This is our show where
Speaker 3: we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the
Speaker 3: Bechdel test as a jumping off point. And that's a test,
Speaker 3: of course, created by a queer cartoonist, Alison Bechdel. Also
Speaker 3: she credits Liz Wallace as a co creator. That's why
Speaker 3: it's sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test. And it is
Speaker 3: a medium metric that has many versions. Ours is this
Speaker 3: due to two characters of a marginalized gender, have names?
Speaker 3: Do they speak to each other? And is their conversation
Speaker 3: about something other than a man? And we especially like
Speaker 3: it if it's a narratively substantial conversation, a nice, meaty
Speaker 3: conversation that you could puke up later.
Speaker 2: Yeah, shit out, puke whatever you want, which, as we'll discuss,
Speaker 2: is you know, not really that much of a problem
Speaker 2: in this movie, which is wild in a two and
Speaker 2: a half hour movie where basically two men start a
Speaker 2: podcast on a sinking ship that sounds like really fun
Speaker 2: and they're really like forcing it on the people around
Speaker 2: them in the way that a lot of podcasters do.
Speaker 2: It felt like representation matters. So yeah, we say, we
Speaker 2: were talking about Triangle of Sadness twenty twenty two movie
Speaker 2: from Oh God, I'm gonna say, Ruben Austland, Is that right? Okay?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Great?
Speaker 2: I thought I was gonna have an Ewan McGregor sort
Speaker 2: of brain problem.
Speaker 3: No, I think he's going easy on us with his name.
Speaker 3: This this Ruben Austland.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is sort of in I'm excited to
Speaker 2: talk about. We'll first talk with our guests and also
Speaker 2: talk about how this movie sort of came out at
Speaker 2: the time where like Rich People Satire was, there were
Speaker 2: like five, I think movies and TV shows that had
Speaker 2: similar themes in like this calendar year. But I like
Speaker 2: this one the best. So let's let's get our guests.
Speaker 3: In here, do it. He's a comedian. His new special
Speaker 3: is out now called Paths with Most Resistance. You can
Speaker 3: find it on YouTube and eight hundred Pound Gorilla. It's
Speaker 3: James Adomian.
Speaker 2: Welcome.
Speaker 4: Hello, well by Caitlin. Hello, Hello Jamie.
Speaker 2: How's it going good?
Speaker 4: Happy to talk to you both. And I was excited
Speaker 4: to talk about this movie because I remember it being
Speaker 4: one of two extremely funny movies of twenty twenty two
Speaker 4: that I laughed a lot at. You know, I don't
Speaker 4: know if it passes the BEGDL tess, and I was
Speaker 4: interested in finding out.
Speaker 2: Let's tell you, we'll get there, We'll get there.
Speaker 4: It very well might not.
Speaker 2: What was the other movie in twenty twenty two that
Speaker 2: was really funny for.
Speaker 4: You official competition.
Speaker 3: Oh oh, I haven't seen that me either.
Speaker 4: You know, it's not Alma Dovar. It looks like an
Speaker 4: Almodovar movie because it has Penelope Cruz and Antonio Benderis,
Speaker 4: but I want to see who the director is. It
Speaker 4: was very, very funny, and it's like a It was
Speaker 4: clearly like a film in the pandemic because's a very
Speaker 4: cast of basically three people.
Speaker 2: Oh huh, oh that rocks.
Speaker 4: It was basically two actors who hate each other and
Speaker 4: the Penelope Cruise is the director who puts them in
Speaker 4: a movie for the first time.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's a fun premise.
Speaker 2: That sounds great.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Oh it was Mariano Cone and Gaston Duprat.
Speaker 2: Okay, the movies. I was thinking this was kind of
Speaker 2: in conversation with and I was finding like some old
Speaker 2: kind of clickbaity pieces to this effect was like it
Speaker 2: was triangle of sadness. It was was it the meal,
Speaker 2: the food?
Speaker 3: What was it called the menu?
Speaker 2: The menu?
Speaker 1: The food?
Speaker 2: The meal which didn't do very much for me, nor
Speaker 2: did glass Onion did even less. And then you have
Speaker 2: the White Lotus, which I do like. But it was
Speaker 2: interesting because I feel like these movies all sort of
Speaker 2: had made being Rich still look kind of fun, and
Speaker 2: Triangle of Sadness does not make being Rich look fun
Speaker 2: at all. I feel like it's the only one that
Speaker 2: really effectively depicts misery at every class level in a
Speaker 2: really funny way. Anyways, James, what is your history with
Speaker 2: this movie? This director? Take it away?
Speaker 4: Okay, So Ruben Oastland, I did not see Force Majeure,
Speaker 4: which I've been meaning to for years, which was the
Speaker 4: one about the avalanche at a ski resort. Yeah, and
Speaker 4: the father who runs away from the family.
Speaker 3: Which they remade as an American movie with I want
Speaker 3: to say, Will.
Speaker 2: Ferrell and Julia Louis Dreyfus. Yeah, I haven't seen either.
Speaker 3: I should.
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do more American remakes of everything. There was
Speaker 4: too much snow. So I did see, uh, probably in
Speaker 4: twenty eighteen. I believe his previous film, you know, the
Speaker 4: second of the three that I know of, The Square,
Speaker 4: The Square, which was very funny and I wasn't expecting
Speaker 4: it to be. I thought it was going to be
Speaker 4: like an art film, and it was much funnier. Than
Speaker 4: I thought it was going to be. And that was
Speaker 4: kind of like a satire of the art world and
Speaker 4: how people have to pretend that obviously ridiculous art is
Speaker 4: very important. Right. There was moments of that in this
Speaker 4: movie that are very very funny in The Square. So
Speaker 4: I guess, you know, you make a couple funny movies.
Speaker 4: If it runs two weeks in America, they consider that
Speaker 4: a hit for an international production. True, And so I
Speaker 4: mean when I saw there was a preview for this
Speaker 4: and I was like, this looks interesting. And then I
Speaker 4: saw I was like directed by you know, from the
Speaker 4: director of The Square, I was like, yep, that's the one.
Speaker 4: Gotta catch it. This is for me. Hell yeah, I
Speaker 4: imagine they must have had to film it during the
Speaker 4: pandemic as well. If it came out in twenty twenty two,
Speaker 4: it must have been like an early production or one
Speaker 4: that they were sitting on.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was reading up about this production halted for some
Speaker 3: amount of time because of the pandemic. It was one
Speaker 3: where they were like doing constant COVID I read something
Speaker 3: like they did over a thousand COVID tests throughout the production.
Speaker 3: Each one turned up negative. So yeah, they were like
Speaker 3: shooting during the I think height of the pandemic.
Speaker 4: Wow. Yeah, and it's kind of like it's a hermetically
Speaker 4: sealed cast for most of the movie on a boat
Speaker 4: or on an island.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be interesting to have to like spot
Speaker 2: COVID movies in the future where you're like, why do
Speaker 2: they never leave this room? And you're like, oh, right, yes.
Speaker 4: I wonder if there's movies like that from nineteen twenty
Speaker 4: or nineteen nineteen, right, Yeah, because of the ogs of
Speaker 4: Spanish Yeah, exactly, No, wonder Buster Keaton was at the
Speaker 4: front of the house fall on him and something else.
Speaker 4: It all makes you couldn't get any other actors in
Speaker 4: there to prop it up. Yeah, And so I was
Speaker 4: like delighted. I saw this movie an opening weekend Triangle
Speaker 4: Sadness and really laughed loud, really, like almost too loud
Speaker 4: the way I do. I really laughed too loud in
Speaker 4: the theater, But it was it was so fun to
Speaker 4: see it minded me, you know, after the lockdowns and stuff.
Speaker 4: It reminded me the joy of like a shared experience
Speaker 4: of a large room full of people in a packed
Speaker 4: movie theater laughing at the same moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: A beautiful thing.
Speaker 4: It's a beautiful thing to be a part of. It
Speaker 4: was it was just so fun. It was so fun,
Speaker 4: you know, the kind of rolling laughter as a scene
Speaker 4: builds and goes where you're like, oh no, they're not,
Speaker 4: Oh yes they are.
Speaker 2: It's it's fucking awesome, Like I loved. Yeah, getting to
Speaker 2: see this movie in a full theater everyone should get.
Speaker 2: Like it still holds up by yourself, but it's way
Speaker 2: better with people.
Speaker 4: Right. I actually have not watched it by myself. I'm
Speaker 4: looking forward to doing that. I thought it was so funny,
Speaker 4: and it's interesting because it's like there's two parts there.
Speaker 4: It's basically two different movies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of three almost.
Speaker 4: Yeah, before the ship on the ship and then after
Speaker 4: the shipwreck. Yeah, yeah, you're right. It's like there's a
Speaker 4: through line of a couple characters basically that go through
Speaker 4: all three what you could consider short films or something.
Speaker 4: Who knows, maybe it was written that way in case
Speaker 4: they you know, they didn't get the funding immediately and
Speaker 4: had to go the proof of concept short film route,
Speaker 4: which a lot of people do.
Speaker 3: Right. Yeah, I feel like this movie could very easily
Speaker 3: work without part one, which is like just the two
Speaker 3: models arguing about gender roles.
Speaker 4: To pay the check.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: But he's cooking, Jamie.
Speaker 3: What's your relationship with the movie.
Speaker 2: I also saw this movie when it came out. I
Speaker 2: also have not seen Force Masure. I'm almost certain I've
Speaker 2: lied about it though, So if I told you I
Speaker 2: saw it, I was lying to try to get through
Speaker 2: the conversation a little easier.
Speaker 4: It's an important movie.
Speaker 2: Yeah. People do love to say have you seen Force Masure?
Speaker 2: And I haven't, but I have said I have, but
Speaker 2: I haven't. So this was my first Rubin also lynd movie,
Speaker 2: and I really like it, and like we were saying,
Speaker 2: a lot of similar movies came out around this time,
Speaker 2: I think this is like the most fun one. I
Speaker 2: was kind of burned out on this concept, and so
Speaker 2: I sort of went into this movie not being sure
Speaker 2: because I think I had already seen the menu at
Speaker 2: this point and been like, Okay, we'd sea glass Onion
Speaker 2: later and be like Ryan Johnson made a hundred million
Speaker 2: dollars doing this movie, Like what are you talking about? Like, sure,
Speaker 2: you know, eat the rich, but also accept one hundred
Speaker 2: million dollars shit like that, right, Like Ruben Alson I
Speaker 2: think gets it the most like clear, and I really
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. And that's my entire history with this movie, Caitlin,
Speaker 2: what's your history?
Speaker 3: Very similar? I saw in theaters, really liked it. It
Speaker 3: was probably my like fourth favorite movie of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 3: I've left a lot. I feel like I had a
Speaker 3: similar theater going experience recently with the Substance, where oh yeah,
Speaker 3: things escalate and you're just like, oh my gosh, because
Speaker 3: what's unfolding on screen is just chaos and grotesqueness in
Speaker 3: a really fun way.
Speaker 2: I also thought I had seen The Square, but it
Speaker 2: turns out I was thinking of the movie The Box
Speaker 2: starring Cameron DS. I was like, wow, that's crazy that
Speaker 2: he directed The Box.
Speaker 3: There's also Cube.
Speaker 4: It'd be really funny if people had like an awards
Speaker 4: show and they gave the award to a movie thinking
Speaker 4: it was another movie. Oh no, we were thinking of, oh,
Speaker 4: not The Box but the Cube. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: We gave Best International Picture to two thousand and nine
Speaker 2: movie The Box. Whoops.
Speaker 3: I haven't seen The Box.
Speaker 2: It's like, absurdly not very good, but I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: They receive a box and if you press the button,
Speaker 2: you get a million dollars but someone dies.
Speaker 3: Okay, interesting the end. Well, I'll check it out someday.
Speaker 3: The point is, I really liked Triangle of Sadness, and
Speaker 3: I remember it was nominated for a handful of Academy Awards,
Speaker 3: including Best Picture. I remember the conversation about how Dolly
Speaker 3: da Leone was snubbed for Best Actress, although she won
Speaker 3: a couple other accolades that year for the movie won
Speaker 3: the Palm d'Or it can. So I was like, I
Speaker 3: have good taste. I liked this movie and other people
Speaker 3: did too, but anyway, yeah, I really enjoyed it, and
Speaker 3: there's so much to unpack.
Speaker 4: You said something interesting. It got nominated for a couple
Speaker 4: of Oscars, I guess, and I don't. It might have
Speaker 4: won one, but maybe not. But it struck me as
Speaker 4: unusual because I'm conditioned to expect that the best movies
Speaker 4: won't even be considered for Oscars usually, and that there's
Speaker 4: a certain kind of like less good movie that's considered
Speaker 4: for Oscars, where they're aiming for the accolades of the
Speaker 4: award shows. And this didn't feel like that. It felt
Speaker 4: like much funnier than anything that usually gets considered for
Speaker 4: an Oscar, So I was interested that it slipped through.
Speaker 3: The same Yeah.
Speaker 2: I feel like that's been happening. I mean not to
Speaker 2: like overgive the Oscars credit, but I feel like that's
Speaker 2: happening more and more in a way that's kind of
Speaker 2: encouraging that poor things did it as well as it did.
Speaker 3: Stuff like that, everything everywhere, all at once from the
Speaker 3: same year.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like weird stuff.
Speaker 3: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come
Speaker 3: back and do the recap.
Speaker 2: Shall we write?
Speaker 3: And we're back? All right? So here is the story.
Speaker 3: We open on a casting call for male models. Here
Speaker 3: we meet Carl played by Haristick, who goes in for
Speaker 3: an audition. There's also this like I guess documentarian who's
Speaker 3: interviewing some of the male models. And it's like, oh,
Speaker 3: is this a grumpy brand or a happy brand? And
Speaker 3: the cheaper the product that's being sold, this more smiley
Speaker 3: the models, And the more expensive the product or the brand,
Speaker 3: the frownier they are. I thought that was really funny. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the casting directors see Carl, they're pretty judgy about his appearance.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're like, this Swede has a thing or
Speaker 2: two to say about America, you know.
Speaker 3: One of them asks Carl to relax his triangle of sadness.
Speaker 4: Hey, that's the.
Speaker 2: Name of the movie. We're all cheering. We're cheering. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: the family guye joke.
Speaker 3: Normally, it doesn't come so soon into the movie. Usually
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, and that's the silence of the Lambs,
Speaker 3: and it's like somewhere in the third act, but yes, or.
Speaker 4: There's like a waste land where dystopia has landed upon
Speaker 4: the earth and somebody's like, truly, it's always been a
Speaker 4: triangle of sadness, right, but.
Speaker 3: This when you get it like five minutes into the movie.
Speaker 2: Not to keep bringing it up, but I bet that
Speaker 2: happens in the box. Surely they say the box early
Speaker 2: on in the movie.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, like what's in the box?
Speaker 2: What's in the this the box?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Uh, that should be a quote in every movie,
Speaker 3: not just seven in the box.
Speaker 2: It's true. It's wild that it happened twice, and that's
Speaker 2: the only time the phrase comes up in the entire movie, right,
Speaker 2: I think, so, yeah, yeah, And it refers to the
Speaker 2: like area between your eyebrows, crucial.
Speaker 4: Area of making facial expressions, I guess.
Speaker 3: Especially sadness.
Speaker 2: We don't want to be making facial expressions.
Speaker 4: Now, I'm playing with my triangle of set. I can't help.
Speaker 4: But when you start talking about it, and.
Speaker 2: People hate when people move their faces around when you're
Speaker 2: supposed to look at so way, they're like, have a
Speaker 2: static a face as humanly possible, because they're.
Speaker 3: Like, maybe he needs botox and that would really do numbers.
Speaker 2: He's like twenty four anyways.
Speaker 3: Okay, So from here the movie is divided into three parts.
Speaker 3: Part one is called Carl and Yaya, referring to Carl
Speaker 3: and his girlfriend, whose name is Yaya played by Ooh
Speaker 3: and I don't actually know how to pronounce her first name.
Speaker 3: It's just charlby Charleby Okay, yeah, charlby Dean, who is
Speaker 3: a model and influencer and who makes more money than him, because,
Speaker 3: as it's mentioned earlier, modeling is one of the few
Speaker 3: industries where women tend to earn more money than men.
Speaker 3: And this does not bother him at all. He's not
Speaker 3: bothered by it. He's absolutely fine with it.
Speaker 2: It's fine.
Speaker 3: Huh.
Speaker 4: Is that when they fight over the check?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, So Yaya expects Carl to, for example, pick up
Speaker 3: the bill at their expensive dinners, and he confronts her this.
Speaker 3: He also questions why it's so hard for her to
Speaker 3: talk about money, and he speculates that it's perhaps because
Speaker 3: it's so tied to gender roles, and he resents that
Speaker 3: she subscribes to, you know, stereotypical gender roles of the
Speaker 3: man expected to be the financial provider. He tells her
Speaker 3: he feels used. He wants their dynamic to feel more equal,
Speaker 3: and then she's like, but what if I become gregnant
Speaker 3: and I can't work as a model anymore?
Speaker 2: What then?
Speaker 3: And then the conversation kind of like tapers off because
Speaker 3: we then cut to part two.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately I do I mean not to say. I frequently say, actually,
Speaker 2: this whole conversation has been a test and you failed.
Speaker 2: But you know many such cases it's happened.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, I've got thoughts. I can't wait to
Speaker 3: talk about this because again, there's lots to unpack.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was interesting for me to watch that scene
Speaker 4: and see what exploration of like beautiful people having an
Speaker 4: unpleasant dinner with their problems that they have.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, you just don't expect it to happen because.
Speaker 2: They're talking about money, for sure, but they're also not
Speaker 2: talking about money, Like it's there's just there's so much
Speaker 2: going on and they're both so hot and so unable
Speaker 2: to communicate.
Speaker 3: Right, it's great. So then part two, called the Yacht,
Speaker 3: we see a luxury cruise on a large yacht is
Speaker 3: about to set off and a I don't know what
Speaker 3: her job is, like guest services director or something, this
Speaker 3: character named Paula. She's addressing the service crew about how
Speaker 3: they should work hard to make this a great experience
Speaker 3: for the wealthy passengers in the hopes that they get
Speaker 3: a generous tip, and.
Speaker 2: They start like chanting.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It kind of reminded me of like the McConaughey and
Speaker 2: to cap like the chest pounding thing. Yeah yeah, capitalists
Speaker 2: pounding of the chest scary so scary.
Speaker 4: Yeah, where it's like, hey, team, get together, time make
Speaker 4: a bunch of big money. Go team.
Speaker 2: Yeah right, the chest pound of class mobility.
Speaker 3: Frightening. So we see them. We also see the like
Speaker 3: cleaning and housekeeping crew, and there's like a clear class
Speaker 3: hierarchy even among the crew, because it's implied that they're
Speaker 3: on a lower hierarchical tier than the service crew. One
Speaker 3: such member of the housekeeping crew is trying to clean
Speaker 3: the room of Karl and Yaya who are on this cruise,
Speaker 3: but they pretty rudely dismiss her, telling her to come
Speaker 3: back later, and boyd does she come back later? In
Speaker 3: the story that is wish. Then we see some of
Speaker 3: the other wealthy passengers on this cruise, such as Dmitri,
Speaker 3: his wife Vera, and his girlfriend Ludmilla. He's the like,
Speaker 3: I sell shit guy because he made a fortune from
Speaker 3: selling fertilizer, like agriculture fertilizer.
Speaker 4: This is my favorite character in the movie. He's fun
Speaker 4: This is the James Adomian favorite characters are.
Speaker 2: Just saying this is just the idea of the King
Speaker 2: of Shit is just so satisfying.
Speaker 4: And his name is Latgo Burick, and he's the character
Speaker 4: actor from Eastern Europe. And I followed him on Instagram
Speaker 4: after the movie because I thought he was so funny.
Speaker 2: He's really great. Got him and him and Woody Harrelson.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't listen to that podcast, but many ex boyfriends would.
Speaker 4: Yeah. When he's first introduced, I mean, there's there's like
Speaker 4: a magnetic presence to his character where he's kind of
Speaker 4: like quizzing the couple that we've already been introduced to
Speaker 4: and he's like, so you travel the world looking beautiful,
Speaker 4: a pretty good gig, pretty good gig.
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, I'm the king of shit.
Speaker 4: Yeah right, And he's supposed to be like from he's like,
Speaker 4: you know, lived through communism in Eastern Europe somewhere and
Speaker 4: became this like very wealthy capitalist businessman. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3: They explicitly say he's Russian, so yeah.
Speaker 4: He's right, and the character is Russian. The whole movie
Speaker 4: is full of these topsy turvy things where it's like
Speaker 4: the man who's not making as much as his girlfriend
Speaker 4: because of this particular industry, and then like the Russian
Speaker 4: capitalist and the American communists and all this kind of things.
Speaker 3: You love to see it. So we meet him and
Speaker 3: his various partners. We meet Clementine and Winston. They're the
Speaker 3: older British couple who we will later learn our weapons manufacturers,
Speaker 3: mister and missus.
Speaker 2: And grenade more industrial complex.
Speaker 1: Yep.
Speaker 3: We meet Teres, who recently had a stroke. She uses
Speaker 3: a wheelchair and has limited speech. She can only say
Speaker 3: a few words in German as a result of this stroke.
Speaker 3: Vulcan do we know what this translates to? They say
Speaker 3: it in the movie up in the sky. Oh okay,
Speaker 3: so we meet her. We meet this uber rich code
Speaker 3: developer guy Yarmo, who Carl and Dimitri think seems kind
Speaker 3: of lonely and pathetic, but then he ends up flirting
Speaker 3: with both of their girlfriends.
Speaker 2: And then they lose it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, he seems like the dorky guy
Speaker 4: and he's the wealthy guy in the boat.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly what.
Speaker 4: The money plays in the board game.
Speaker 3: That's right. Meanwhile, Paula has been knocking on the door
Speaker 3: of Captain Thomas, trying to get him to come out
Speaker 3: and attend a safety drill or to plan the captain's dinner,
Speaker 3: but he keeps saying he's not feeling well, though it's
Speaker 3: heavily implied that he's actually very drunk all of the time.
Speaker 3: We recognize the voice of Woody Harrelson. Of course, we
Speaker 3: come back later.
Speaker 2: Yep, yep.
Speaker 3: I love his performance. It's incredible.
Speaker 2: I really love that his I mean, I guess spoilers
Speaker 2: of you you should just watch the movie. But like
Speaker 2: that his character is confined to this second act only
Speaker 2: it just it feels right. I like it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Then one of the rich people, Vera. This is
Speaker 3: Dimitri's his wife, insists that all the crew should go
Speaker 3: for a swim because quote unquote everyone is equal and
Speaker 3: the crew works too hard, but that night is the
Speaker 3: captain's dinner, and there's not really enough time to like
Speaker 3: facilitate allowing the crew to go for this casual swim.
Speaker 2: Also off the water slide, to like it's just like
Speaker 2: a weird humiliation ritual for the entire crew.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's obviously like commentary on what rich people think,
Speaker 3: like their idea of generosity or their idea of equity.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like there's all these like repeating like at
Speaker 2: the beginning of the movie, you have like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I guess this is a Reubenaus and thing. Again, I
Speaker 2: lied about seeing force masure, so I don't fucking know.
Speaker 2: But how at the beginning the fashion show where it
Speaker 2: says like everyone is equal now and you have the
Speaker 2: parade of models, and then that image is kind of repeated,
Speaker 2: and the second act with like the crew on the
Speaker 2: water slide and whatever on.
Speaker 4: And the slogans, the slogans that are deployed in place
Speaker 4: of any kind of fair treatment of people.
Speaker 2: Exactly cynicism masquerading as optimism. I had to keep pausing
Speaker 2: to like write down all the like horseshit that they're
Speaker 2: putting on at the fashion show is fun.
Speaker 3: Something interesting about that scene too, is the there's like
Speaker 3: people sitting in the front row of the fashion show,
Speaker 3: but they're made to move because they're not as important
Speaker 3: as the people who need their seats. So there's like
Speaker 3: all these hierarchies, and even within like upper class people
Speaker 3: or you know, like working class people, there are still hierarchies.
Speaker 3: It's it's very interesting. So there's this swim that the
Speaker 3: rich people are insisting on, and the chef in the
Speaker 3: kitchen are like, well, if we leave the kitchen and
Speaker 3: go for this swim, the food was gonna spoil. But
Speaker 3: everyone's still basically forced to do this crew swim.
Speaker 4: Right, not going to argue about it, right.
Speaker 3: And also a storm is on the horizon, and all
Speaker 3: of this culminates in almost everybody getting very very ill
Speaker 3: at the captain's dinner. They're puking everywhere.
Speaker 2: Well, it's like all the rich people because I also
Speaker 2: didn't pick up on this the first time. It is
Speaker 2: because they're eating the food that is spoiled, and it's
Speaker 2: their fault that it's spoiled. Like that'll bit precisely.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's because they distracted the crew.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, why are only the rich people
Speaker 2: throwing up? You're like, oh, yeah, because they're eating like
Speaker 2: poisonous jelly or whatever. It's great.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So yeah, that's planted. It's
Speaker 3: kind of subtle, so I could see why you would
Speaker 3: miss it. But it seems to be a combination of
Speaker 3: food poisoning and seasickness because there's this like storm that's
Speaker 3: rocking the boat. But the people who avoid it are
Speaker 3: for example, Captain Thomas, who eats a burger and fries
Speaker 3: for dinner, which also.
Speaker 2: Happens in the menu. There's a huge like I was
Speaker 2: born in the middle class, but now I have money.
Speaker 2: Like that is I guess signaled through.
Speaker 3: A cheeseburger eating a yeah exactly. I don't know why
Speaker 3: Dmitri avoids getting sick also, but he manages to evade
Speaker 3: the barfing in the diarrhea.
Speaker 4: Right, it's only the people who had the seafood or
Speaker 4: something like that, which is the popular dish. And it's
Speaker 4: a fantastic visual imagery because you realize it's almost like
Speaker 4: the director Rubenoslan, he sets up there's an element of
Speaker 4: setting up these characters as like a kid playing with toys.
Speaker 4: There's these rich people that are dressed in tuxedos and
Speaker 4: now oops, they're gonna shit and vomit everywhere.
Speaker 3: It is honestly one of the most memorable and cathartic
Speaker 3: and gratifying moments I've ever seen in any movie ever.
Speaker 3: Just like watching these rich people in utter despair, humiliated,
Speaker 3: puking everywhere, shitting themselves like helpless.
Speaker 2: It's beautiful. We covered The Exorcist earlier this week, so
Speaker 2: it's just been a really great week for projectile vomit
Speaker 2: on the cast.
Speaker 4: It really has Yeah, huge, I mean, I guess in
Speaker 4: the preview there's some hint that there's something like this
Speaker 4: that happens, but you don't realize the scope of this
Speaker 4: scene because you think, like a lot of movies, you're like, well, okay,
Speaker 4: they're gonna cut away from like they're gonna imply it
Speaker 4: and get enough out, and then they're gonna cut away
Speaker 4: to the aftermath or some other way of showing it,
Speaker 4: you know, where there will be like we'll just show
Speaker 4: vomit running from under the door or whatever, and then
Speaker 4: you realize shot by shot, oh, he's gonna show all
Speaker 4: of it. He's gonna show like fifty people getting seasick
Speaker 4: and food poisoning at the same time.
Speaker 3: It's like a ten minute sequence. It goes on so long,
Speaker 3: and it keeps escalating too, where like at some point
Speaker 3: the plumbing starts overflowing with literal shit water and it's
Speaker 3: like seeping out into the hallways and everything. So we're
Speaker 3: watching all that unfold. Meanwhile, Captain Thomas and Dimitri are
Speaker 3: getting drunk and discussing their political ideologies, with Captain Thomas
Speaker 3: being a Marxist and Dimitri being a capitalist. And then
Speaker 3: they go into the Captain's quarters and here's a Jamie
Speaker 3: start a podcast over the intercom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a hostage podcast.
Speaker 4: They're speaking over the intercom and presumably everyone's sick and
Speaker 4: recovering from what just happened. And this is my favorite
Speaker 4: scene of the movie, the conversation they have with each other. Yeah,
Speaker 4: because they're both very funny. It's Woody Harrelson, it's Latko Buick,
Speaker 4: and they're these opposites in two different ways, because it's
Speaker 4: the you know, the Eastern European capitalist and the American communist.
Speaker 4: She's rare, but not impossible, you know, and uh, it's
Speaker 4: statistically rare, but there's you know, lots of communists in America,
Speaker 4: and they're not just all constantly protesting. Sometimes they have
Speaker 4: jobs and stuff.
Speaker 3: Sometimes they're the captain of a luxury cruise.
Speaker 4: It's a little bit of an absurdity. It's definitely like
Speaker 4: a oh, well, that would really happen, but that's not
Speaker 4: why I go to the movies and uh yeah, And.
Speaker 2: It felt like Rubin Assen was like aware of that too,
Speaker 2: because the first time I saw it, Like, the scene
Speaker 2: is so fucking funny. The Woody Harreld's character does say
Speaker 2: it where he's like, I'm a shit socialist and it's like, yeah, man,
Speaker 2: you are, like you're your whole like everyone who is
Speaker 2: beneath you. You're just ignoring and literally locking out of
Speaker 2: the room while you discuss theory, which is what a
Speaker 2: lot of Marxists do is instead of going to like
Speaker 2: talk to people.
Speaker 4: It's a great deep irony and the thing is full
Speaker 4: of and this is what I love about him. It's
Speaker 4: these upside down worlds that are then put in conversation
Speaker 4: with each other. And I really though, I mean, there
Speaker 4: was a moment in that scene watching it, where I
Speaker 4: thought the filmmaker Ruben Ostlund was doing something very brilliant
Speaker 4: that I had not seen before. Maybe I had read
Speaker 4: it in like an ancient comedy play. It reminded me
Speaker 4: of like Aristophanes, when you're halfway through the proceedings of
Speaker 4: a comedy and then the character kind of breaks the
Speaker 4: fourth wall and grandstands directly to the audience. Right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there's just like a philosophy segment of this.
Speaker 4: Yes, And there's an interesting thing here. It's a captive
Speaker 4: audience on the boat where they're all sick and they
Speaker 4: have to listen. It's the captain. He locked himself in
Speaker 4: the cabin and he's using the PA system from the boat,
Speaker 4: and so they have to either put pillows over their
Speaker 4: ears or they have to listen to it and it
Speaker 4: and similarly, the movie audience is a captive audience for
Speaker 4: this message. And it's this sort of politically radical theory
Speaker 4: based history lesson that's delivered by a disc at a
Speaker 4: ted narrator who's drunk and a bad captain. So by
Speaker 4: the rules of comedy, he's allowed to say anything because
Speaker 4: you don't care if he's the good guy or not.
Speaker 4: And then I felt like he was holding the movie
Speaker 4: critics and the elite academy hostage and forcing them to
Speaker 4: listen to this scene and it was so preachy that
Speaker 4: it's overtly preachy in the narrative where they're actually literally
Speaker 4: just on a microphone bothering everybody with a podcast.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 4: I loved when he goes, we knew it was wrong
Speaker 4: when there were all those assassinations in the sixties, and
Speaker 4: I was like, yes, I was like an ale.
Speaker 2: Yees a CIA killed MLK.
Speaker 4: Like there, I was like holding back from like vocally
Speaker 4: cheering in the movie theater because I'm like he did it.
Speaker 4: He forced everyone in the academy to sit through this
Speaker 4: lecture about how America killed many of its greatest leaders
Speaker 4: back in the sixties.
Speaker 3: He also mentions how, like you know, they'd install these
Speaker 3: like dictators pup dictatorships, yes, in socialist countries in Latin
Speaker 3: America and stuff like that, and You're just like what.
Speaker 3: I also like, how he can't he's too drunk to
Speaker 3: say shit socialist, so you be like I'm a shit socialist. Stop.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And again like having that like layered sort of thing
Speaker 2: where it's like you're forcing people who do not want
Speaker 2: to hear this to listen to it, you're basically locking
Speaker 2: everyone in the room. And like with the Woody Harrelson character,
Speaker 2: he is like a Champagne socialist and like having that
Speaker 2: sort of level too, where it's like he clearly wants
Speaker 2: to argue with this Russian guy more than he wants
Speaker 2: to like do other stuff.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but they're having one of these very they're making
Speaker 4: each other laugh too, which is an interesting thing. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and you wonder how much of that is the actors
Speaker 4: just liking each other. And that scene is also I mean,
Speaker 4: I guess it must be said. It's like the opposite
Speaker 4: of a Bechdel test scene where it's just two guys
Speaker 4: holding everyone off.
Speaker 3: But I don't mind. I'm having a great time watching.
Speaker 2: It, which is wild that like, yeah, this movie does
Speaker 2: actually pass the bactal test, but if there was doubt,
Speaker 2: that scene will only increase the doubt. It's such a
Speaker 2: good scene because it's like they're these characters are like
Speaker 2: weird tethers to each other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then Dimitri's like, I'm the new owner of
Speaker 3: this ship and it's going down and everyone's like, oh
Speaker 3: my god. Yeah he's joking, but like, everyone's scared.
Speaker 2: They don't know.
Speaker 3: They think maybe the ship is crashing. There's a huge storm.
Speaker 3: It's wild. It's such a bananas scene that I enjoy
Speaker 3: very much. And again, while they're like doing their political
Speaker 3: ideology podcast over the intercom, we see an addition to
Speaker 3: all the rich people puking and shooting their guts out,
Speaker 3: we see the housekeeping crew trying to clean up the mess,
Speaker 3: kind of to no avail because again the shit water
Speaker 3: is seeping into the carpet and stuff. And then the
Speaker 3: yacht is attacked by like modern day potates via gunfire
Speaker 3: and hand grenades, the very hand grenade that the British
Speaker 3: couple who are weapons manufacturers, they're killed by their own grenade.
Speaker 2: It's so awesome. They're like, oh, it's one of us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that was a very funny line. Madam Clementine,
Speaker 4: Oh dark, there's a grenade that rolls on and she goes.
Speaker 3: It's cut to explosion. They die. The yacht presumably sinks,
Speaker 3: because then we cut to part three, called the Island,
Speaker 3: where a few people have made it to a nearby
Speaker 3: island that seems uninhabited.
Speaker 2: Wait, Caitlin, did you think I was like, well, it's
Speaker 2: like they skipped the second half of the movie Titanic,
Speaker 2: like they just were like, a.
Speaker 4: Few hours later, the whole shipwreck, we just we don't
Speaker 4: even do it. Because that's interesting because you know, James
Speaker 4: Cameron would make that the entire movie, and well, yeah,
Speaker 4: there's many filmmakers that would be like, we gotta get
Speaker 4: eyes on all these people who've just vomited as they're
Speaker 4: as they're slowly sinking in a shipwreck.
Speaker 3: I feel like Reuben Austin was either like, well, yeah,
Speaker 3: we've already seen that movie, or he's like, we don't
Speaker 3: have the budget for a shipwreck, so we're just gonna
Speaker 3: cut to we blew everything on the vomit.
Speaker 2: It works. I Like I remember, like for the for
Speaker 2: the first ten minutes of the Island sequence, the first
Speaker 2: time I saw it, I was like, all right, Woody
Speaker 2: Harrelson's gonna be back any second now, and then you're like, oh,
Speaker 2: he's not coming.
Speaker 3: He didn't.
Speaker 4: He just implied he didn't survive the shipwreck.
Speaker 3: Well, the captain always goes down with the ship.
Speaker 2: Captain, So was he really a shit socialist after all?
Speaker 3: True?
Speaker 2: He's for the people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, so survivors on the island include yah Yan,
Speaker 3: Carl Dimitri, the coder, Guy Yarmou, the like cruise director,
Speaker 3: Lady Paula Teres, the Indian Vulcan woman, is well as
Speaker 3: a character who we've never seen before, Nelson, who Dimitri
Speaker 3: accuses of being one of the pirates, and Nelson is like, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: I work in the engine room. Oh you think just
Speaker 3: because I'm black, I must be a pirate And that
Speaker 3: keeps like getting called into question throughout the rest of
Speaker 3: the movie. In any case, that first night on the island,
Speaker 3: everyone is scared and hungry and thirsty, and there's animal
Speaker 3: sounds coming from the nearby jungle. And then the next morning,
Speaker 3: a lifeboat with some supplies and a person inside washes ashore.
Speaker 3: This person is Abigail played by Dolly de Leon. She's
Speaker 3: one of the housekeeping crew who we've seen before.
Speaker 4: And it's like a metal lifeboat, right, it's a.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it seems pretty sturdy. There's like a roof attached
Speaker 3: to it. It's like enclosed.
Speaker 2: It's like a little submarine.
Speaker 3: Yeah. The others soon realize that Abigail is a great
Speaker 3: asset for the island because she's the only one who
Speaker 3: knows how to fish, who knows how to build a fire,
Speaker 3: who knows how to prepare and cook her catch. Her
Speaker 3: first catch is an octopus, and she takes half of
Speaker 3: the octopus for herself, and then the rest is divided
Speaker 3: between or I guess, among the seven other people. And
Speaker 3: they're like, well, why do you get so much food Abigail,
Speaker 3: and she's like, well, I did all of the work.
Speaker 3: And Paula, who was Abigail's boss on the yacht, is
Speaker 3: acting like that power dynamic still exists between them, saying like,
Speaker 3: you know, you're just a toilet manager, Abigail, and Abigail's like,
Speaker 3: things have changed. I'm the captain now.
Speaker 2: I like that. You see, I kind of forgot that.
Speaker 2: There's a moment where you see Abigail like earlier when
Speaker 2: Paula is like, oh, Abigail, give us the water, give
Speaker 2: us the chips, like you see a moment where Abigail
Speaker 2: sort of defaults to the structure that did exist on
Speaker 2: the boat because she keeps hesitating being like wait, I
Speaker 2: don't and then by the next thing and she's like,
Speaker 2: I don't have to do this, and then the movie
Speaker 2: gets crazier and great, yeah, is it.
Speaker 4: Right around here that they she asked them what skills
Speaker 4: they have? Yeah, and so my favorite guy is let
Speaker 4: go Burrick. She asked him and another guy, like, do
Speaker 4: you guys have any skill useful skills? And he just goes, no, no,
Speaker 4: that's his answer. So funny that someone would just say
Speaker 4: that's do you have any survival skills? No?
Speaker 3: No, no, Yeah, that's only Abigail. And so as the captain,
Speaker 3: she decides who gets to sleep in the lifeboat with
Speaker 3: her and like be safe from the animals lurking in
Speaker 3: the forest. Yeah, So that night, Abigail, Paula, and Yeah
Speaker 3: Yah sleep inside the lifeboat while the others are left
Speaker 3: to tend to the fire and keep it going so
Speaker 3: that Abigail doesn't have to put all the work into
Speaker 3: building a new fire the next day. But those people,
Speaker 3: primarily Carl and Nelson, fall asleep and the fire goes
Speaker 3: out and.
Speaker 2: They steal pretzel sticks.
Speaker 3: They steal pretzel sticks and then lie about stealing them,
Speaker 3: and Abigail is not happy about this, and so she
Speaker 3: punishes them by not feeding them that day. But then
Speaker 3: she's like, well, Carl, because you didn't eat anything, now
Speaker 3: you can sleep in the lifeboat with me.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I also like that. She starts by that. Abigail starts
Speaker 2: by being like, Okay, all of the women are going
Speaker 2: to be in like the safest place. But then when
Speaker 2: that like does not, I don't know, it's like it
Speaker 2: starts with that, but then she's like, wait a second,
Speaker 2: this actually is not working because the women inside the
Speaker 2: boat are still trying to enforce the class dynamic. So
Speaker 2: she's like, okay, well let's switch it again. And it's
Speaker 2: just like interesting watching her navigate, like what is the
Speaker 2: smartest way to do this and survive and like maintain power.
Speaker 3: She realizes she has all the power on this island
Speaker 3: and she does not hesitate to exert it.
Speaker 4: Very quickly realizes it.
Speaker 3: And so Yaya after Abigail is like, Karo, come sleep
Speaker 3: with me. Yah Ya is like, well, she probably wants
Speaker 3: to have sex with you, but you can't do it.
Speaker 3: But sure enough, Carl and Abigail start a sexual relationship.
Speaker 3: The dynamic being Abigail is using her power to gain
Speaker 3: access to this young attractive man, which you know, upsets
Speaker 3: ya Yah and upsets everyone else on the island because
Speaker 3: they're like, well, we want pretzel sticks too, and she's
Speaker 3: like no, no, I control whetzel sticks.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's a there's a moment where some
Speaker 4: of the uglier guys try to get the same deal
Speaker 4: well because.
Speaker 3: They're they're trying to trade their like expensive watches as
Speaker 3: if that has any currency or any value on the island,
Speaker 3: and she's like, what the fuck am I gonna do
Speaker 3: with your watch right now? I don't need that shit.
Speaker 3: Then there's a brutal scene where they kill a donkey
Speaker 3: I hate.
Speaker 2: It, which is weird foreshadowing unfortunately to like the last
Speaker 2: shot of the movie.
Speaker 3: True.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because they're like scared, they don't know what it is.
Speaker 4: They think it's a and it turns out that it's
Speaker 4: just a donkey.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just takes a really long time to die.
Speaker 2: It's like and then, I mean I thought that was
Speaker 2: kind of funny. It is like, yeah, it's like the
Speaker 2: Koder guy who's like, okay, I'm going to like hyper mask,
Speaker 2: like I'm gonna kill the donkey, and then it takes
Speaker 2: so long and he gets so upset that he's like
Speaker 2: weeping by the end. It needs to be comforted.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's easy, and we're like, what if that was
Speaker 3: donkey from Shrek?
Speaker 2: Damn?
Speaker 3: You know makes you think.
Speaker 2: Makes you think it's one grieving dragon. I guess it's.
Speaker 4: An unnecessarily violent rewrite on Shrek.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 4: Don't remember where it falls. Where is the scene where
Speaker 4: I always call him as Lotco but the Dmitri? What
Speaker 4: is the scene where Dimitri?
Speaker 3: Are you referring to the moment where his dead wife
Speaker 3: washes ashore and he takes off all of her expensive jewelry.
Speaker 4: It is so darkly funny. It's one of the darkest
Speaker 4: funniest moments I've ever seen, where he's weeping and holding
Speaker 4: the pale dead body of his drowned wife and crying
Speaker 4: and caressing, and then stops and takes off the very
Speaker 4: expensive necklace to.
Speaker 2: Keep like putting on a show for himself. Basically, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think it's right around here.
Speaker 3: It may have already happened, but yeah, that takes place,
Speaker 3: and it's very funny. Then it seems like it's been
Speaker 3: a couple weeks since they've been on the island, and
Speaker 3: Yai y'all wants to go on a hike over the
Speaker 3: mountain to see if she can find anything, and Abigail
Speaker 3: offers to go with her. There's also a quick scene
Speaker 3: where seems like a local who lives on the island
Speaker 3: shows up trying to like sell his wares, but the
Speaker 3: only one around is Teres, who, because of her very
Speaker 3: limited speech, is not able to communicate what the situation is.
Speaker 3: So he like gets free out and leaves. So like
Speaker 3: they had a chance to be saved, but it didn't
Speaker 3: work out. So back on the hike, Yaya discovers an
Speaker 3: elevator to a resort. So it turns out there's this
Speaker 3: luxury resort that's been on this island the whole time,
Speaker 3: and they find it, and so it seems like they're saved.
Speaker 3: And then the end is a bit ambiguous. I will
Speaker 3: share my interpretation of events, curious to hear what other
Speaker 3: people thought about it. But so here's what I felt
Speaker 3: was going on. They find the elevator, it seems like
Speaker 3: they'll be able to get off the island and continue
Speaker 3: on with their lives. Abigail, presumably not wanting to give
Speaker 3: up the power she has accumulated on the island, picks
Speaker 3: up a large rock, intending to smash it over Yaya's
Speaker 3: head to kill her donkey style what they did with
Speaker 3: the donkey moments earlier. But before she does this, Yahya
Speaker 3: is like, by the way, I can try to help you,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe you can come and work for me,
Speaker 3: be my assistant, which makes Abigail hesitate, and we don't
Speaker 3: see her actually like smash the rock on Yaya's head
Speaker 3: or anything, but we do cut to Carl running through
Speaker 3: the forest panicking. Seems like he's going in the same
Speaker 3: direction we saw Abigail and yah Ya go, maybe because
Speaker 3: he heard yah Ya cry for help. We're not sure.
Speaker 3: It's very ambiguous again, but I feel as though Abigail
Speaker 3: did end up killing ya Ya because she was like,
Speaker 3: why would I want to be an assistant to this
Speaker 3: like rich woman when I could be captain of the
Speaker 3: island right the end.
Speaker 2: And I could just ration brattel sticks forever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4: It looks like that's what happens. It looks like that
Speaker 4: was that's what happens, or at least there was an
Speaker 4: attempt to do that in the movie ends.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, let's take a quick break and then we'll
Speaker 3: come back to discuss, and.
Speaker 2: We're back Where to begin? Where to begin?
Speaker 4: What a dark film? Hilarious and ominous and it's interesting
Speaker 4: how funny it is for how ominous and dark it
Speaker 4: is like pessimistic about human ethics.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's not really a great good character in the movie.
Speaker 4: It's more as like.
Speaker 2: Doing the right thing, and it definitely does sort of
Speaker 2: subscribe to like the absolute power her ups absolutely kind
Speaker 2: of idea that like there's never a possibility that there's
Speaker 2: going to be shared wealth. But when you're with Abigail's character,
Speaker 2: you're like, well, she'sn't fucking ohe them anything, Like it
Speaker 2: is cathartic seeing her treat them like shit. One of
Speaker 2: the things I really liked about this movie, especially, I know,
Speaker 2: like you could paregre it to the others, but it
Speaker 2: really did like bug me in twenty twenty two was that, like,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of movies that are like talking
Speaker 2: about class or even like trying to talk about class
Speaker 2: present the like halves and the havelves not in a
Speaker 2: very like binary way, and there's so many like shades
Speaker 2: of gray, and like the way that this like boat
Speaker 2: is presented where you have obviously the uber wealthy, but
Speaker 2: there's shades of gray to the uber wealthy in the
Speaker 2: fact that it's like Yaya and Carl are wealthy for now,
Speaker 2: but they're also sort of living on borrowed time, and
Speaker 2: it's implied that they'll only be valuable for as long
Speaker 2: as they're beautiful.
Speaker 4: They're aware of that, Yes, yeah, there's a shelf life,
Speaker 4: and they're not.
Speaker 3: As wealthy as the people who paid their way onto
Speaker 3: the cruise because they got the cruise for free, so
Speaker 3: we can assume, you know, some influencers do make millions
Speaker 3: of dollars and end up being wealthy, but they're not
Speaker 3: the same level of like I've exploited people and made
Speaker 3: my wealth off of grenades, grenades and land mines. So
Speaker 3: there's even a hierarchy there.
Speaker 2: And that's like part of what the first section addresses
Speaker 2: is that they're both very conscious of like this possibly
Speaker 2: being temporary and that they'll have to like scrabble to
Speaker 2: maintain it. And then in like the middle section, you
Speaker 2: have the like mostly white service crew on the boat
Speaker 2: and they're sort of like aspiring to be of a
Speaker 2: higher class and completely ignoring the lowest class on the ship,
Speaker 2: where it's like implied that there's no chance of moving classes.
Speaker 2: It's mostly people of color and like scurious what you
Speaker 2: guys said, because the lowest class. In the movie, we
Speaker 2: do see Abigail a number of times, but we it's intentional,
Speaker 2: but like, we don't get to know anybody until we
Speaker 2: get to the island. We get to know a lot
Speaker 2: of people in the highest in the middle class in
Speaker 2: like the first two acts of the movie, but it's
Speaker 2: not really until we get to the island that we
Speaker 2: get to know Abigail with any sort of like nuance.
Speaker 4: I saw the whole thing as a filmmaker roasting and
Speaker 4: satder rising a well off, important audience, and I think
Speaker 4: it's made. It's made for all of us to laugh
Speaker 4: at them, but it's also made. It's made for them
Speaker 4: to be like, look at you idiots, right. I think
Speaker 4: there's a there's a heavy metaphor allegory you could put
Speaker 4: onto it, which is that the boat itself is like
Speaker 4: the planet that we're on.
Speaker 3: It's a microcosm.
Speaker 4: Yes, this is a microcosm of our planet. And you know, hey,
Speaker 4: look at you, Look at you assholes. You're also mortal. Yeah,
Speaker 4: you're bound to the same cycle of life that the
Speaker 4: rest of us are. I think it's a very interesting
Speaker 4: attack on the hyper wealthy. I think that the boat itself,
Speaker 4: the yacht, makes a fantastic story vehicle, like no better
Speaker 4: place to have a bunch of classes illustrated and the
Speaker 4: hypocrisies and the struggles of the different social classes. And
Speaker 4: also I do think it works as a an allegory
Speaker 4: figure for the planet that we live on. M M.
Speaker 2: The first time I saw in theaters, I was like,
Speaker 2: I wish we got to know, you know, people from
Speaker 2: the lowest class on the boat sooner. But it does
Speaker 2: feel like it's almost like Rubert Ousland is very likely
Speaker 2: trying to like prey on his viewers willingness to ignore
Speaker 2: them and then have Abigail be a really prominent character
Speaker 2: later in the movie because the way that society trains
Speaker 2: you is to ignore people of the lowest station. And
Speaker 2: I don't know, Yeah, Caitlyn, what was your take on that?
Speaker 3: So the first time I saw the movie, I had
Speaker 3: a slightly different reaction than I do now, which was like,
Speaker 3: is this really the story we need to be telling that.
Speaker 3: You know, this working class like toilet manager, like literal
Speaker 3: shit cleaner, has a very undesirable job, gets access to
Speaker 3: power because of her skills that none of these wealthy
Speaker 3: class people have, and you know, you see her like
Speaker 3: rise to and you're like, yes, go, But then she
Speaker 3: basically installs a dictatorship on this island right then, and
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, to the point where she's like dolling
Speaker 3: out punishments to people, she's withholding resources, she is about
Speaker 3: to murder someone exploiting sex, like right, She's like yeah,
Speaker 3: she's exerting her power to gain access to the sexual
Speaker 3: conquest and all this stuff. And I was like, well,
Speaker 3: I don't know if that's the message we should be
Speaker 3: sending out that, like a working class woman of color
Speaker 3: is gonna be evil if given the opportunity, especially like
Speaker 3: coming from a white cis man director. But then I
Speaker 3: was like, well, I guess this is more a commentary
Speaker 3: on like meritocracy and how it's actually not great and
Speaker 3: how it's basically capitalism because it is still it's like
Speaker 3: inherently ablest and still dependent on hierarchies and an imbalance
Speaker 3: of power because like she's like, well, I have the skills,
Speaker 3: so I deserve more. But it's like, well, also she's
Speaker 3: fucking over all these rich people, and that is satisfying
Speaker 3: to watch.
Speaker 2: But it's like as a revenge story, it's very satisfying.
Speaker 3: As a revenge story. Yes, So there's like all these
Speaker 3: moving parts. There's all these things. I still don't know
Speaker 3: quite what to make of the end. I have complicated
Speaker 3: feelings about it. I think at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: I appreciate it as a commentary on power corrupts those
Speaker 3: who possess it, and that meritocracy is actually not a
Speaker 3: good solution as a system of government. Right, So that's
Speaker 3: where I'm landing.
Speaker 4: I disagree with that, and I think that very similarly,
Speaker 4: I think it's a playful warning from within the upper class,
Speaker 4: the elite, hyper wealthy. I think it's a warning from
Speaker 4: within that there is a fantastic reck and come up
Speaker 4: and surround the corner.
Speaker 3: That too, right, rich people are not afraid enough of
Speaker 3: the working class.
Speaker 2: That's the tricky part of all these movies is they're
Speaker 2: all made by rich people, so it's like always gonna
Speaker 2: be the paradox. I don't know, Yeah, kill I hear
Speaker 2: what you're saying. And also realistically, if you're Reuben Auslind,
Speaker 2: you're like, well, who's going to see this movie. Who's
Speaker 2: this movie going to get to? Probably mostly middle class,
Speaker 2: upper middle class and rich people. So like, I definitely
Speaker 2: understand the criticisms of it. I like it more every
Speaker 2: time I watch it though mm hmm, maybe I just
Speaker 2: haven't read enough Marx, and by that I mean any
Speaker 2: I haven't read any say like Force Mazure for me.
Speaker 3: Well, one of my favorite moments of the movie is
Speaker 3: you see the Dimitri character spouting all these Reagan quotes
Speaker 3: and talking about how awesome capitalism and then and then
Speaker 3: the second the tables have turned and he is no
Speaker 3: longer in a position of wealth and power and he
Speaker 3: is at the mercy of someone else's power. He says
Speaker 3: the you know, from each according to ability, to each
Speaker 3: according to need in that.
Speaker 4: Because he would have grown up under that and would
Speaker 4: have remembered it of course.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: That's like the part of the movie that I've like,
Speaker 2: there's like no doubt that it has done super well.
Speaker 2: Is like watching the rich people squirm and have their
Speaker 2: ideology adjust in real time to like the rich people
Speaker 2: become like, well, no, we should do socialism now that
Speaker 2: we have nothing to contribute.
Speaker 3: Now that it would benefit us exactly, yes, right, because like,
Speaker 3: on one hand, it's commentary about like the undervaluing of labor,
Speaker 3: especially what is considered to be quote unquote low skill labor.
Speaker 3: But it's that type of labor which only Abigail knows
Speaker 3: how to do, which allows them to survive because she's
Speaker 3: feeding them, and like the currency now is food, but
Speaker 3: also beauty, and that's something that the director discussed as
Speaker 3: being like the primary theme he was interested in exploring
Speaker 3: this movie. He wanted to talk about beauty as currency,
Speaker 3: which is why there's so much focus on the model
Speaker 3: couple at the beginning, and how you can use beauty
Speaker 3: if you have it as a means for upward mobility,
Speaker 3: because that's how this couple ends up on this cruise
Speaker 3: that they probably wouldn't have been otherwise able to afford.
Speaker 4: Even in the post apocalyptic tables turned world.
Speaker 2: Right, it's like still currency, right, because we have this
Speaker 2: situation where Abigail, now that she is this dictator, she
Speaker 2: uses her power to gain sexual favors from the most
Speaker 2: attractive man on the island, and it's something that we
Speaker 2: see men in power do all.
Speaker 3: The time, and so we get this kind of gender
Speaker 3: role reversal here. Doesn't make it any better, It still
Speaker 3: makes it disgusting to, you know, exploit your power for
Speaker 3: any kind of gain and exploitation. But it's just really
Speaker 3: interesting to see play out.
Speaker 2: And I like that part of the function of that
Speaker 2: first part is that it's not like the the hot
Speaker 2: people are presented as like infallible, like there, it's also
Speaker 2: clear that what their power is is potentially temporary and
Speaker 2: like how I mean whatever I guess, Like The Substance
Speaker 2: is the most recent movie that illustrates that point of like,
Speaker 2: if you are in a position where your value is
Speaker 2: connected to how traditionally beautiful you're perceived to be, then
Speaker 2: things are always going to change. And like that conversation
Speaker 2: towards the beginning with Yahya and Carl and Yaya being like, well,
Speaker 2: what if I got pregnant, Like, what would happen?
Speaker 4: Then?
Speaker 2: If my value shifted in the public eye? How would
Speaker 2: that affect me? And what would I do? And I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously she doesn't get pregnant, but you see, you see
Speaker 2: her value shift and you see his value shift. As
Speaker 2: the movie goes.
Speaker 3: On, there's a line from Yaya toward the end where
Speaker 3: she and Abigail are on the hike and she's like,
Speaker 3: I'm so impressed by what you've done here, Abigail. You've
Speaker 3: managed to run a fucking matriarchy here, and you've domesticated
Speaker 3: all the old alpha males and on the surface, like
Speaker 3: a very surface level, Yeah, that's true. It's a you know,
Speaker 3: a woman is the leader of this group. She has
Speaker 3: these other women like helping her and defending her, because
Speaker 3: there's that scene where shortly after she has declared herself
Speaker 3: the captain and Karl is protesting and he's pointing at
Speaker 3: her and he's using this aggressive body language and he's
Speaker 3: just like, well, I don't see how this is fair,
Speaker 3: and his girlfriend Yahya turns on him, is defending Abigail,
Speaker 3: being like, don't have that aggressive posture. You're lying and
Speaker 3: you're stealing and da da da. So like on the surface,
Speaker 3: it seems like, yes, it's this group of women led
Speaker 3: by a woman who has taken charge. And again, like
Speaker 3: on a very surface level, that's satisfying to see, especially
Speaker 3: as like a woman of color rising through the ranks
Speaker 3: by circumstance to become the leader of these formerly rich people.
Speaker 3: But again it's still if you like, peel away the
Speaker 3: layers of the Shrekkian onion, who if you are. Again,
Speaker 3: she's the leader only because she feels entitled to these things,
Speaker 3: and it's complicated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's part of why I feel like
Speaker 2: Yaya is like such a tricky character to talk about
Speaker 2: because I guess, yeah, I'd about to be like this
Speaker 2: Swedish guy had something interesting to say about intersectional feminism,
Speaker 2: but hear me out. I do think Ruben Auslin is
Speaker 2: trying to say so many things and address so many
Speaker 2: dynamics in this movie that it's not humanly possible really
Speaker 2: for all of them to come together in a cohesive way.
Speaker 2: They don't necessarily have to. It's just like it's there's
Speaker 2: so much. But I do think it's interesting with Yaya,
Speaker 2: where you know, Abigail originally, I think she like appeals
Speaker 2: to the women and the women one of whom, especially
Speaker 2: like Paula, was originally condescending to her, and only kind
Speaker 2: of joins as a subordinate because it's a way to survive,
Speaker 2: not because it's actually a showing of mutual respect. We
Speaker 2: know that Paula doesn't respect Abigail for sure, and so
Speaker 2: it's like interesting watching the like sub class dynamic between
Speaker 2: women because I feel like sometimes it's just suggested that,
Speaker 2: you know, like everyone of one gender will all come
Speaker 2: together to overthrow blah blah blah blah blah, and it's
Speaker 2: like a nice idea, but there are sub dynamics obviously,
Speaker 2: and you have three women from three different classes, and
Speaker 2: so of course it doesn't you know, that line from
Speaker 2: Yaya at the end sort of rings hollow. And then
Speaker 2: once there's like the promise of the natural quote unquote
Speaker 2: order being restored, Yaya immediately becomes kind of condescending to
Speaker 2: Abigail again and is like, you should work for me,
Speaker 2: when ten minutes ago, Yah, y'all worked for her, right?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, and this is something we talk
Speaker 3: about a lot, but the tendency to assume that everyone
Speaker 3: in a particular group is a monolith, that oh, women
Speaker 3: will show solidarity for other women, or all women of
Speaker 3: color will handle things the same way because of their experience,
Speaker 3: and we see time and time again that that is
Speaker 3: not true.
Speaker 2: Women of all like classes or whatever exactly.
Speaker 3: Like it take any you know, classification of people. There's
Speaker 3: so many examples to the contrary of that, and I
Speaker 3: think this movie like shows an interesting example of that
Speaker 3: with the Abigail character and her behavior. But I don't know,
Speaker 3: I'm just like, was this guy the right person to
Speaker 3: make that claim? I'm not sure this guy being the
Speaker 3: writer director, I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think there's a pessimism at the heart of the movie,
Speaker 4: which is reflected in the title Triangle of Sadness. And
Speaker 4: I think you know, and you can look at it
Speaker 4: like three acts that are tied together, where it's sort
Speaker 4: of like a cycle that keeps happening, or you could
Speaker 4: look at it as it's a comedic mirror of suffering,
Speaker 4: that people keep repeating a pattern of the same suffering
Speaker 4: upon each other and different in these groups, in these
Speaker 4: class groups, and that there's like injustice and a reaction
Speaker 4: to it that's also imbalanced, and then it goes back
Speaker 4: to a status quo and that it repeats and repeats
Speaker 4: and repeats, and that we're basically it looks to me
Speaker 4: like we're locked in a triangle of sadness. Wow, Like
Speaker 4: as much as possible, he's showing a mirror of like, well,
Speaker 4: this is how it is. Even people who are trying
Speaker 4: to make it better are making it worse.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, this is like Ruben awesome kind of presenting
Speaker 2: his worldview kind of because it doesn't I mean, the
Speaker 2: movie isn't going to give us like clean answers because
Speaker 2: Ruben Auslin does not have the solution to society. I
Speaker 2: don't know if like this movie presents a lot of questions,
Speaker 2: it doesn't really hit answers, but that makes sense. I
Speaker 2: kind of like the ending for that reason, Where would
Speaker 2: it be cathartic? I guess to see Abigail land the
Speaker 2: rock on Yaya's head, even if you like Yaya a
Speaker 2: little bit, sure like, but it makes sense that Abigail
Speaker 2: is because it's still a tragic ending on a long
Speaker 2: enough timeline. Even if Abigail does do that, she's buying time.
Speaker 2: But their system is not sustainable, you know, Abigail cannot
Speaker 2: sustain this group of people forever. Eventually they're gonna have
Speaker 2: to go to the resort, or eventually someone's gonna find
Speaker 2: the resort because we and we know that because someone
Speaker 2: from the resort has already found them. So Abigail could
Speaker 2: be by killing someone, you know, buying herself a couple
Speaker 2: of hours, right, and so like it is this brutal cycle.
Speaker 2: It's not like there's a happy ending, even by like
Speaker 2: Abigail's definition, and she seems to possibly know that.
Speaker 3: Right yeah, I mean, like flash forward to a few
Speaker 3: hours after the movie ends, It's like, okay, they have
Speaker 3: been discovered. She's arrested for murder, Abigail is for the
Speaker 3: murder of Yah Yah. Yeah, and she's even worse off
Speaker 3: than when she started as an incarcerated person. So it's
Speaker 3: such an interesting movie. I love all the the queries
Speaker 3: it poses.
Speaker 4: Like a good comedy, it raises more questions that it answers. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I mean it is something to be talked about or
Speaker 4: to inspire a conversation about large issues. I don't think
Speaker 4: that they're I'm kind of relieved there's not like a
Speaker 4: companion manifesto of like, how should we solve this strigle
Speaker 4: of sadness.
Speaker 2: As I was rewatching it, I was like, oh, that
Speaker 2: was like part of what was irritating about the other
Speaker 2: things in the genre. Whereas it's like there is some
Speaker 2: sort of like clean conclusion to it that it feels
Speaker 2: like this is this director's version of solving class inequality.
Speaker 2: And you're like, okay, like you know, it just always
Speaker 2: kind of doesn't really work.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it looks like the messages, it's gonna be
Speaker 4: really messy and ugly if you want to solve it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right. I wanted to just mention Teres really
Speaker 2: quick because we get to know her the smallest bit.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the characters we get to know
Speaker 2: least to survive are Nelson and Teres, and they're kind
Speaker 2: of paired off together at different points where it seems
Speaker 2: like they kind of forge your friendship. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: it's interesting that we learn about Teres. We don't really
Speaker 2: learn about Nelson other than the fact that here in
Speaker 2: the engine room or worked in the engine room of
Speaker 2: the ship that blew up. But there is like one
Speaker 2: character sort of development about Therese where it's like a
Speaker 2: humanizing moment for her because we don't really know anything
Speaker 2: about her other than that she's rich and that she
Speaker 2: has this disability and that we learn that like she's
Speaker 2: like used sex to get a job before. But it's
Speaker 2: like this very like I don't know's I thought it
Speaker 2: like a weirdly sweet moment between the two of them
Speaker 2: where she yeah, yeah, like I liked.
Speaker 3: It, like goofing around about it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I liked that moment. But otherwise, I mean, it
Speaker 2: feels like it does sort of go into this very
Speaker 2: like you're saying, James, like this really dark worldview that
Speaker 2: Ruben Oslin has where it's like her disability means that
Speaker 2: the able bodied characters frequently forget about her. And that
Speaker 2: she is like treated you know, inherently differently by the
Speaker 2: other characters, and we don't really get much more than that.
Speaker 2: I mean, I would be curious to hear what disabled
Speaker 2: people thought of that character. But yeah, I mean it
Speaker 2: felt like an acknowledgment that when these able bodied characters
Speaker 2: were put into an extreme situation, they you know, sort
Speaker 2: of treat Teres as a second class citizen.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what happens in a meritocracy, right, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it just means that the two characters of the Survivors
Speaker 3: who we learn the least about are a black character
Speaker 3: and a disabled character. Yeah, and those optics aren't great.
Speaker 3: I I don't know, I just like have other stray
Speaker 3: thoughts about the movie, like the rich people's idea of
Speaker 3: what generosity is, because you have things like at the beginning,
Speaker 3: ya Ya saying I'm a very generous person. Ask any
Speaker 3: of my friends. I gave you that shirt, I took
Speaker 3: you to dinner, and then Carl retorts with like, well
Speaker 3: you got this shirt for free, and I was the
Speaker 3: one who ended up paying for dinner. So those are
Speaker 3: bad examples. So you have like Yah Yah's inflated sense
Speaker 3: of self in thinking she's so generous when actually she's
Speaker 3: probably not generous at all. You have Yarmo telling Yahya
Speaker 3: and Ludmilla, who we don't see very much in the movie,
Speaker 3: but it's Dimitri's like younger trophy girlfriend that he tells
Speaker 3: the two of them, Oh, you're so generous for like
Speaker 3: taking a picture with me. I'm gonna buy you both Rolexes,
Speaker 3: and it's you know, he thinks they're generous because they
Speaker 3: paid attention to him, a billionaire, and so his idea
Speaker 3: of generosity is so skewed. You have the whole thing
Speaker 3: with Vera being like, oh, life is so unfair to
Speaker 3: you working class people. We're all equal, and that's why
Speaker 3: I'm forcing you to go down a water slide.
Speaker 2: Literally dance, monkey dance, like literally, yeah, I think that
Speaker 2: she's doing a good thing when like everyone is clearly
Speaker 2: very uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: And then there's the character Alicia, who she makes like
Speaker 3: sit in the hot tub in her like Leonardo DiCaprio moment, wow,
Speaker 3: fly clothed in water. But it's just laughable and again
Speaker 3: just like a stupid commentary on rich people's idea of
Speaker 3: generosity is and how skewed it is. Similarly, the things
Speaker 3: that the rich people try to offer to Abigail once
Speaker 3: they're on the island. We touched on this already, but
Speaker 3: like the rich men trying to like give her their
Speaker 3: watches are saying, Oh, as soon as we get off
Speaker 3: the island, I'll make your life easy and comfortable. Knowing
Speaker 3: that like they'll probably forget about Abigail immediately, yah yah,
Speaker 3: being like, come and work for me as my assistant
Speaker 3: and be at my beck and call.
Speaker 2: Right the second that there's a chance for her to
Speaker 2: get out.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I enjoyed those bits of commentary. I thought
Speaker 3: they were very effective.
Speaker 2: The Alicia moment reminded me of I don't know if
Speaker 2: I've talked about it on the show before. My first
Speaker 2: job out of college was like working at this bakery
Speaker 2: where we were called guest huggers.
Speaker 3: Oh, I remember you talking about.
Speaker 2: It like that weird like coercion moment where you are
Speaker 2: like a middle class worker. I mean, that's like who
Speaker 2: most closely identified with on the boat. I was like
Speaker 2: serving their coffee, making their law dies, giving them biscuits
Speaker 2: or whatever. But any guest could come in and make
Speaker 2: you hug them, and that was like a part of
Speaker 2: the job. Where it could just be some fucking creep,
Speaker 2: which it always was. No person who's normals like, hey,
Speaker 2: twenty one year old girl, give me a hug, but
Speaker 2: you did have to do it. And that is what
Speaker 2: that scene felt like to me, is having to hug
Speaker 2: a stinky rich person in the financial district at five
Speaker 2: thirty am. But just to like talk a little bit
Speaker 2: about the Yaya Carl dynamic. It's so hard to talk
Speaker 2: about because I mean, and that's like part of why
Speaker 2: I feel like the movie's so well written. But I
Speaker 2: don't know, there's moments with like you're not allying with
Speaker 2: the hyper wealthy women, but also you can feel that
Speaker 2: they are being used for their looks, and so there
Speaker 2: is like an exchange taking place there. The conversation between
Speaker 2: Carl and Yaya is so infuriating because he is being
Speaker 2: an asshole, but he also does have a point, yeah,
Speaker 2: and the thing that is like weird to be like
Speaker 2: at the end of that scene, Yaya comes back and
Speaker 2: apologizes to him, which again you're like, well maybe, but
Speaker 2: he was like being a real asshole too, Like they
Speaker 2: were just both being.
Speaker 3: Assholes for sure, and she admits to like manipulating him.
Speaker 3: She's like, I don't even realize I'm doing it, but
Speaker 3: I know that I am.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: I do hate the Carl character where like and then
Speaker 2: Carl is just like, thank you for saying that, Like
Speaker 2: he doesn't admit any fault, Like she a apologizes to
Speaker 2: him for being manipulative, which is true, and then he's like,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for saying that, But he doesn't
Speaker 2: apologize for being cruel, for blah blah blah, like anything
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 4: I feel like it's fun to see that early in
Speaker 4: the movie. As early in the movie, you see that
Speaker 4: the two quote unquote it's an ensemble film, but the
Speaker 4: two main characters of the through line of the movie
Speaker 4: are in a toxic relationship that looks beautiful and perfect
Speaker 4: from the outside to everyone else, right, and in other
Speaker 4: scenes they maintain it. They act like they're very lucky,
Speaker 4: very perfect people.
Speaker 3: For sure. Their conversation in part one where Carl is presenting,
Speaker 3: He's like, why don't you want feminism? Why don't you
Speaker 3: want equality between us?
Speaker 2: I just want us to be equals. And I feel
Speaker 2: like when he's getting something right, yeah, Also, okay, so
Speaker 2: I've just speaking from personal experience here this conversation, like
Speaker 2: it touches on something that I've been.
Speaker 3: Thinking about a lot lately, where in the context of
Speaker 3: heterosexual dating, which I tragically engage in, and in the
Speaker 3: context of like paying for things on dates. I used
Speaker 3: to be very like, I'm a strong independent woman. I
Speaker 3: don't need a man paying for me for things. Let's
Speaker 3: split the bill or you know, da da da. I
Speaker 3: was like pro distributing wealth in a relationship or whatever
Speaker 3: or in a date in context. And now I'm like,
Speaker 3: men owe me money. Like every man I've ever dated,
Speaker 3: every man who's ever been inside me, owes me money.
Speaker 3: And I don't want to pay for anything, and they
Speaker 3: should pay for everything. As long as like gender based
Speaker 3: income disparity exists, as long as we're living under the patriarchy,
Speaker 3: men owe me money. And that is my brave statement.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, incredible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seed is so hard, right because I, like, thankfully,
Speaker 2: or maybe I'm just not hot enough cannot relate to
Speaker 2: that exact dynamic between people. But it is tricky when
Speaker 2: it's like, you know, I've been in relationships where like
Speaker 2: I am the financially dominant person and in a hetero couple,
Speaker 2: it is fucking weird. And you're like it is a
Speaker 2: strange thing to navigate. There's not at least you know,
Speaker 2: like certainly not how I grew up, there was no
Speaker 2: precedent for it. It was either equal or because of
Speaker 2: how payment structures worked, like even if both couples worked,
Speaker 2: the dad made more money. And it is interesting watching
Speaker 2: these two fail to have a productive conversation about that.
Speaker 2: I guess because I think points were made. Also the
Speaker 2: fact that like they just acknowledge Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I also hate Carl, so I'm like, just pay for dinner,
Speaker 2: you fucking loser. So I guess that's sorted with either.
Speaker 4: To me, it just looks like two manipulative people who
Speaker 4: are locked into like two cobras that are stalking each other.
Speaker 4: It looks like two toxic narcissists who are who've settled
Speaker 4: into an awful, terrible orbit around each other.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well yeah, because I mean on the Yaya end
Speaker 2: of things, the dynamics switch. Every time there's a power shift,
Speaker 2: the things between them flip flop, like several times in
Speaker 2: the movie where originally he also another thing that just
Speaker 2: I find so irritating about this character that kind of
Speaker 2: comes all the way around is at the beginning where
Speaker 2: he's like, I'm gonna make you fall in love with me,
Speaker 2: where she's clearly like, this is a casual thing for me.
Speaker 2: I Am not like in this for life, and he
Speaker 2: at the end of this like act on conversation, is like,
Speaker 2: I'm going to make you fall in love. I'm going
Speaker 2: to do it, and she's like, all right, we'll.
Speaker 3: See, okay, good look ye. She even says she's like
Speaker 3: I'm in this to eventually become someone's trophy wife because
Speaker 3: I know that that's kind of like my only option,
Speaker 3: because she doesn't want to do like, you know, working
Speaker 3: class labor. She admits to that, Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's like I think she at the beginning of the movie,
Speaker 2: she's coming from a very pragmatic place and he's coming
Speaker 2: from an emotional place. And then at some point it switches.
Speaker 2: I hate I mean the part of this the scene
Speaker 2: where like Carl is the most despicable. I feel like
Speaker 2: it's that moment when they're on the boat and she
Speaker 2: talks to a crew member and he's like, why the
Speaker 2: fuck are you talking to a crew member and then
Speaker 2: goes and like narcs to Paula and is like, did
Speaker 2: you know that there's a sexy shirtless crew member out there,
Speaker 2: you should probably fire him, and then tries to buy
Speaker 2: like a wedding ring that she would not have accepted.
Speaker 3: And that he can't afford. It seems like because when
Speaker 3: she tells him the price, he like recoils in horror.
Speaker 2: I guess I would argue she's a little better, but
Speaker 2: not by much, because later on, when they're on the island, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden acts as if she's had an
Speaker 2: emotional attachment to him all the time. When the power
Speaker 2: switches again and he's the one in the submarine with
Speaker 2: Abigail and she's the one left out in the cold,
Speaker 2: She's like, but wait, I love you, And I'm like, well, no,
Speaker 2: you don't.
Speaker 3: You know, like I mean, it just speaks to the
Speaker 3: toxicity of their relationship where they both feel ownership over
Speaker 3: the other person. Yeah, where you know, he's like, don't
Speaker 3: talk to that sexy crew member. I own you, and
Speaker 3: then she's like, don't go sleep with Abigail.
Speaker 2: I own you.
Speaker 3: I do think it's again this like gender reversal thing
Speaker 3: where yah Ya is instructing Carl how to behave to
Speaker 3: get something you want from a rich person. She's had
Speaker 3: to do it with rich men. And now she's like, Okay,
Speaker 3: here's what you do. You stroke her ego, you laugh
Speaker 3: at her jokes, but don't do anything sexual set boundaries.
Speaker 4: That's so funny that she knows that from experience. I
Speaker 4: never thought of that. Yeah, of course she does, because.
Speaker 3: She's kind of doing that with Yrma when they're like,
Speaker 3: come over here, have a drink with us, take a
Speaker 3: picture with us. And then he's like, do you want
Speaker 3: Rolexes and they're like, TIHI, okay.
Speaker 2: Yes, I want God Champagne or like whatever fucking billion
Speaker 2: dollar bottle he orders, Like yeah, yeah, there's like some
Speaker 2: sort of power dynamic and like really subtle power dynamics.
Speaker 2: I feel like we're not usually used to seeing and
Speaker 2: they're all still so funny. I don't know how he
Speaker 2: did it.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think a great way to watch this movie
Speaker 3: is to watch parts one and two and then pause
Speaker 3: and then watch tape two of Titanic VHS Tape number two,
Speaker 3: which is the shipwreck and the sinking and everything.
Speaker 2: You feel like you're missing anything in this shipwreck that's
Speaker 2: all addressed in Titanic Part two.
Speaker 3: Yeah, just map carl Is Jack Dawson yah ya is
Speaker 3: rose just map some of the characters onto each other
Speaker 3: and then as soon as the ship sinks. Now you
Speaker 3: watch part three of Triangle of.
Speaker 2: Sadness where a crew member takes over Titanic Island.
Speaker 3: Yeah island. Yeah, where the guy from the engine room,
Speaker 3: the one who's like, shut all the dampers, He's now
Speaker 3: king of the island.
Speaker 2: He's a captain.
Speaker 3: Does anyone have any other thoughts about the movie?
Speaker 4: Triangle of Sadness truly a triangle of laughter, So they
Speaker 4: go hand in hand. For it's really an interesting thing
Speaker 4: about human storytelling that something so funny can be so
Speaker 4: sad and vice versa. M and I just I really
Speaker 4: loved that. I really loved that. There is some fantastic
Speaker 4: artistry in being able to force people to laugh like
Speaker 4: that in a room that you're not in with a
Speaker 4: stable hand, knowing that you're in. You know, it's like
Speaker 4: a great masterful comedy of that we used to do
Speaker 4: in America.
Speaker 2: Indeed, it's so good.
Speaker 3: The movie does pass the Bechdel test.
Speaker 2: It does not a ton, but it does pass. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: You have conversations between Abigail and Paula. You have conversations
Speaker 3: between Abigail and ya ya. I think most of the
Speaker 3: passes are on the island. But then you have like
Speaker 3: the crew member Alicia talking to Vera, and Vera being like,
Speaker 3: get in the hot tub and go down the water slide,
Speaker 3: and Abigail being.
Speaker 2: Like, no, that that whole thing passes that whole I mean.
Speaker 3: Yes, So there are a number of conversations that do
Speaker 3: pass the Bechdel test. Interesting imagine that as far as
Speaker 3: our scale, though the famous, the infamous Bechdel cast nipple scale,
Speaker 3: where we rate the movie zero to five nipples based
Speaker 3: on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens. I mean
Speaker 3: this is tricky because I think this movie says so
Speaker 3: many interesting things about class and income disparity and undervaluing
Speaker 3: labor and meritocracy and all of this stuff. I want
Speaker 3: to give it like a three point five or so.
Speaker 3: And again, it is cathartic, even if it's a very
Speaker 3: kind of surface level thing, just to watch a woman
Speaker 3: of color who had been undervalued probably her entire life
Speaker 3: and especially while working for wealthy white people, to suddenly
Speaker 3: become the leader of a group because she has skills
Speaker 3: that no one else has and that everyone else has undervalued.
Speaker 3: There's I feel things that complicate that a bit, but
Speaker 3: I still very much enjoy watching it from a surface level,
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think I want to give it like
Speaker 3: three and a half nipples. I'll give one to Dolly
Speaker 3: de Leon. I'll give one to Charlie by Dean Rip.
Speaker 3: I will give one to Captain Woody Harrelson reading his
Speaker 3: communist Manifesto as a weird podcast that has an audience
Speaker 3: of I don't know forty people. And I'll give my
Speaker 3: half nipple to that poor donkey who perishes RIP to him,
Speaker 3: the RP to the donkey.
Speaker 2: I'm tempted to go four. I don't know this guy.
Speaker 2: It's like, there's a lot of criticisms of this movie,
Speaker 2: and I do think that like one of the tricky
Speaker 2: things that Ruben Auslin can't really control is that this
Speaker 2: movie does seem to be directed at a wealthier audience
Speaker 2: to self reflect or at least a middle class audience.
Speaker 2: But there's so many like subclass dynamics that are really
Speaker 2: funny and really specific that I just like, I haven't
Speaker 2: seen done very much. And I think just especially I'm
Speaker 2: almost like grading it on a scale because there are
Speaker 2: just so many shady class commentary movies out at the
Speaker 2: same time, and this one is both like thoughtful and
Speaker 2: doesn't pretend it has a solution to any of it,
Speaker 2: which I at least appreciate because obviously one random guy
Speaker 2: doesn't have the answer, but it's fun to watch him
Speaker 2: not have the answer. And I really like this movie.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna go one nipple for Dolly Deleion, one
Speaker 2: nipple for charleby Dean, one nipple for I Guess Nelson,
Speaker 2: because I just wish we'd gotten to hang out with
Speaker 2: that character a little more. And I'll give my last
Speaker 2: nipple to the movie Force Majeure, which I will get
Speaker 2: around to.
Speaker 3: We'll watch it, we'll cover someday. Maybe it's true, No Jans,
Speaker 3: how about you?
Speaker 4: Well, I feel bad. I did not know that charleby
Speaker 4: Dean had passed away around the time the movie came out,
Speaker 4: I guess right after it or something. I just learned
Speaker 4: it from you, and that's very sad because I would
Speaker 4: have loved to see more from her. I give them
Speaker 4: orders on a scale of five.
Speaker 3: Yeah, nipples, nipples, that's correct, Okay, So I'm sorry. Do
Speaker 3: you have questions about that?
Speaker 4: Have lots of questions that works for me. This is
Speaker 4: a five nipple flick. I didn't actually intend that. I
Speaker 4: didn't even think of that before I said, but there's
Speaker 4: a five nipple achievements.
Speaker 2: One after the other, right after the other.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think to raise the issues matters way more
Speaker 4: than to solve them in a two hour movie, and
Speaker 4: to do that while being so funny is like an
Speaker 4: almost impossible high wire act. Movies that say as much
Speaker 4: important things are very rarely this funny, and so I
Speaker 4: think that's what makes it something that I would I
Speaker 4: give it my highest compliment, where which is I think
Speaker 4: that it should be preserved for future centuries to see
Speaker 4: what our time was like.
Speaker 3: Comedy and satire are such a wonderful vehicle for class commentary,
Speaker 3: for commentary on many, if not all things. So yeah,
Speaker 3: I love how funny.
Speaker 2: It is and there's nothing more exhausting than watching it
Speaker 2: not work. So it's really nice.
Speaker 4: That's on us.
Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, well, James, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this was a very fun discussion about a movie
Speaker 4: that I liked. Reliving the movie again with you both.
Speaker 3: Thank you, Oh my gosh, thank you Come back anytime please,
Speaker 3: And where can people follow you on social media, plug
Speaker 3: your special plug anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the Specialist Path of Most Resistance. It's on eight
Speaker 4: hundred pound Gorilla. It's on YouTube. You can watch it
Speaker 4: for free on YouTube. You can pay for it on
Speaker 4: eight hundred pound Gerrillamedia dot com. All the informations on
Speaker 4: my website James Adomian dot com. I have a link tree. Also,
Speaker 4: there's a mailing list which I'm trying to start using
Speaker 4: I never have before, and I've been posting a lot
Speaker 4: on Instagram in the last several months, which I have
Speaker 4: way more than I have before. So it's at Jadomian
Speaker 4: and then it's the same handle on threads and blue
Speaker 4: Skysgadomian dot bsguid dot social, and on YouTube. My personal
Speaker 4: YouTube channel is James Adomian xoxo, and the special lives
Speaker 4: on the eight hundred pound Gorilla YouTube channel as well.
Speaker 2: Got it cool, It's so fucking good. Congratulations, Thank you.
Speaker 4: I had a lot of fun doing it, and I'm
Speaker 4: glad that. I'm glad that it seems to have held
Speaker 4: up at least one year since I taped it.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. You can follow us mostly on Instagram at Bechdelcast,
Speaker 3: as well as subscribing to our Patreon aka Matreon, where
Speaker 3: for five dollars a month you get access to good Right,
Speaker 3: you get access to two bonus episodes month, including the
Speaker 3: entire back catalog of somewhere around one hundred and sixty
Speaker 3: or so bonus episodes. So scoot over there, become a matron.
Speaker 3: You won't regret it.
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, you can get merch over at teapublic dot com.
Speaker 2: Slash the Bechdel Cast and with that, let's toss a
Speaker 2: rock on someone's head and return to the islands. Yayue bye.
Speaker 3: The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted by
Speaker 3: Caitlin Derante and Jamie Loftis, produced by Sophie Lichterman, edited
Speaker 3: by Mola Board. Our theme song was composed by Mike
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