Speaker 1: There was an early story on when I first ran
Speaker 1: that I looked to regal in my tweed suit with
Speaker 1: pearls and every hair and place to ever relate to
Speaker 1: the average voter in New Jersey. And so funny how
Speaker 1: we're so judged by our packaging, isn't how I know?
Speaker 1: I never wore pearls again. That was Christie Todd Whitman,
Speaker 1: the first female governor of New Jersey, who served between
Speaker 1: nineteen and two thousand one, and someone I've always deeply
Speaker 1: admired because she's come across as level headed, measured, and
Speaker 1: really in this very partisan, toxic atmosphere that we're living
Speaker 1: in today, Brian someone who I think was pretty moderate
Speaker 1: and certainly listened to both sides, and even when she
Speaker 1: ran for office, it was very difficult for somebody like
Speaker 1: Christy Whitman to get through a Republican primary. Mike Murphy,
Speaker 1: who was on this show earlier, was her campaign consultant.
Speaker 1: He described to me just even though she was such
Speaker 1: a big star and a great candidate, she was considerably
Speaker 1: to the left of where Republican primary voters were. And
Speaker 1: that was back in when that was back and so
Speaker 1: of course that was pre Palin pre Tea Party, pre Trump,
Speaker 1: and the world has changed pretty dramatically since then, so
Speaker 1: queery whether somebody like Christy Whitman could get elected to
Speaker 1: office in either party today. I've done so many political
Speaker 1: interviews and female candidates and office holders are few and
Speaker 1: far between. I was hardened to read though. Since Donald
Speaker 1: Trump was elected president, something like eleven thousand women have
Speaker 1: been inspired to run for office. So hopefully things will change,
Speaker 1: because I think the record is pretty abysmal when it
Speaker 1: comes to electing women to positions of power. Well, it's
Speaker 1: improved a little on the legislative side. There are more
Speaker 1: women in House in the Senate than when Christy Whitman
Speaker 1: was governor, but not so much among chief executives executive
Speaker 1: jobs around the country. There are still very few female governors,
Speaker 1: and this is more of an issue I think for
Speaker 1: the voters. We have to be more willing and able
Speaker 1: to imagine women in these roles. I am woman, to
Speaker 1: hear me roar in numbers too big to ignore, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: Governor Whitman has stayed involved in political discourse, at least,
Speaker 1: writing a lot of op eds and opining about the
Speaker 1: state of the environment. As the former head of the
Speaker 1: e p A, and of course we talked about climate
Speaker 1: change and whether there are reasons to be hopeful or
Speaker 1: whether we should all just move inland and give up now.
Speaker 1: But of course, most Americans probably last remember her as
Speaker 1: the e p A administrator right after None eleven, when
Speaker 1: she infamously said that the air was safe to breathe.
Speaker 1: She later apologized for that mistake because, of course, so
Speaker 1: many first responders got very sick after working down at
Speaker 1: the pile, as it was called, following the terrible events
Speaker 1: at the World Trade Center. I interviewed her for sixty
Speaker 1: minutes many years ago about that, and um, she clearly
Speaker 1: came to regret that decision because she did put a
Speaker 1: lot of people in danger. And her tenure at the
Speaker 1: p A was a very tumultuous one. As we discussed,
Speaker 1: she had major conflicts with the administration Vice President Cheney,
Speaker 1: in particular about climate change, about how power plants should
Speaker 1: be regulated, and other issues, and we got into all
Speaker 1: of that, but more broadly, we talked about the lessons
Speaker 1: that she learned as somebody who was in the arena
Speaker 1: taking incoming fire for decades, somebody who took risks and
Speaker 1: put herself out there She certainly was born into a
Speaker 1: family where she didn't have to do that, and she's
Speaker 1: in many ways an exemplary public servant. She has a
Speaker 1: long history with President Donald Trump, and the first thing
Speaker 1: we asked her is how she was feeling as she
Speaker 1: is watching things unfold in the nation's capital. What are
Speaker 1: you thinking, Christie Todd Whitman, I'm very troubled. I mean,
Speaker 1: I've seen this coming for a while. That my book
Speaker 1: back in two thousand and five, I guess it was
Speaker 1: um kind of predicted what was going to go on,
Speaker 1: and being in a position to saying I told you
Speaker 1: so is not satisfying at all when it's moved this way.
Speaker 1: I've maintained for a long time that I thought that
Speaker 1: Trump voters and the Bernie Sanders voters were two sides
Speaker 1: of the same coin. They were people who were angry
Speaker 1: and frustrated and scared at the inaction in Washington and Congress.
Speaker 1: They didn't know what was happening with their future, and
Speaker 1: they didn't really listen to what their candidates were saying
Speaker 1: in the same way that maybe others were. They just
Speaker 1: wanted to hear they were going to blow up the
Speaker 1: existing system because it just wasn't working for them. Sometimes,
Speaker 1: I wonder, do you think people expect too much from
Speaker 1: their government? Oh? I think they have very high expectations.
Speaker 1: Let's put it that way. But that wouldn't be hard
Speaker 1: nowadays because Congress really hasn't gotten other than the Affordable
Speaker 1: Care Act. If you look back over the last eight
Speaker 1: to ten years, there haven't been a whole lot of
Speaker 1: major pieces of legislation that have changed the way people live.
Speaker 1: And as they are looking at the economy, not it's
Speaker 1: growing two percent, it's just it's not great. They're worried
Speaker 1: about their jobbing. Part of it government can do nothing
Speaker 1: about because it is called its development. It is the technology,
Speaker 1: and technology is making a lot of people redundant, and
Speaker 1: we're seeing that and that scares them. When you need
Speaker 1: to worry every day about how you're going to feed
Speaker 1: your family, keep a roof over your head, whether you
Speaker 1: can get your health care, those are real concerns, and
Speaker 1: they just didn't see Washington address them. They just saw
Speaker 1: Washington yelling the people yelling at one another over partisan issues.
Speaker 1: And if you think back, we didn't used to every
Speaker 1: vote was not a partisan vote. It used to be
Speaker 1: that there were policy decisions where two sides would come
Speaker 1: together and say we've got to do this, and if
Speaker 1: someone had a real problem with a vote, they say, Okay,
Speaker 1: you don't have to vote on this one or this amendment.
Speaker 1: We'll let you go. Now, every votes a partisan vote.
Speaker 1: It's more about partisans politics than it is about policy.
Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, you wrote this book back in
Speaker 1: two thousand five about how the Republican Party needed to
Speaker 1: move to the center. This was before the Tea Party
Speaker 1: and Sarah Palin and certainly before Donald Trump. Why do
Speaker 1: you think we've seen this collapse in not just the center,
Speaker 1: but the constituency for the center in American politics. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't think we actually have seen a collapse of
Speaker 1: the constituency for the center. What we've seen as a
Speaker 1: collapse of people participating in the system. And if there's
Speaker 1: one thing that is good that came out of this
Speaker 1: election cycle is I think that people have finally figured
Speaker 1: out that the way to make a difference is at
Speaker 1: the ballot box. Because up until this cycle, if you
Speaker 1: looked at it primaries, the average voter turnout primaries and
Speaker 1: this country was about ten for congressional relay elections at
Speaker 1: the top. When they were the top of the ticket
Speaker 1: was and presidential. We patted ourselves on the back saying
Speaker 1: if we got over Well, when you do that and
Speaker 1: you think about it, particularly in the primaries, who is
Speaker 1: who makes up that ten There the most partisan people,
Speaker 1: and they tend to have an agenda. They have one
Speaker 1: or two items about which they cared deeply. And so
Speaker 1: the most partisan people are making the decisions that we
Speaker 1: face in the fall, that everyone else faces in the fall.
Speaker 1: And then people look at it and say, well, I
Speaker 1: don't like either of these candidates, but just to push
Speaker 1: I'm not going to vote, but just to push back
Speaker 1: against you a little bit on that. Donald Trump has
Speaker 1: like an eight five or approval rating among Republicans. I
Speaker 1: question which Republicans they're pulling. They're pulling his base. His
Speaker 1: base is very very strong. They're true believers. They're people
Speaker 1: who say the system is so messed up that at
Speaker 1: least he's doing what they say. He's doing what he
Speaker 1: said he was doing going to do, but he's not.
Speaker 1: And eventually I think that will start to percolate down. Um,
Speaker 1: he's done some of it though, and he has certainly
Speaker 1: talked to it, and uh, it's interesting early on I've
Speaker 1: heard anecdotally. I can't prove it, but that when he
Speaker 1: went first went down after he was nominated to talk
Speaker 1: to the congressional leadership, they started talk to him about
Speaker 1: policy and he said, no, no, I figure out what
Speaker 1: people want to hear, and that's what I tell him. Well,
Speaker 1: let's step back and actually talk about your relationship with
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, if we might, because that goes back quite
Speaker 1: a way. So you were, of course governor in New
Speaker 1: Jersey while he was a major casino operator in Atlantic City.
Speaker 1: When did you meet him? How did you meet him
Speaker 1: and what was that relationship like? Well, I met him
Speaker 1: at the very beginning, when after I'd been elected, we
Speaker 1: held a big event, fundraising event for charities called Many
Speaker 1: Phases One Family in Atlantic City, and um we had
Speaker 1: an entertainer who was supposed to do a concert that
Speaker 1: night and I it was Barry Manilow. And on the
Speaker 1: day of he suddenly said, oh, I didn't know this
Speaker 1: was political, and he backed out. I have suspicions as
Speaker 1: to that might have been just a ted or orchestrated
Speaker 1: but that could be me. Um. Anyway, Donald Trump stepped
Speaker 1: up and said, I have um, no, I can't Paul Ankle,
Speaker 1: that's right. When was this? This was right after I
Speaker 1: was elected. This was before my inaugural when we did
Speaker 1: uh that was that three days of the weekend before
Speaker 1: the before the inaugural. And he stepped in and Paul
Speaker 1: Anko was wonderful and he was great and Donald Trump,
Speaker 1: I can't stand that song Christie my way is better
Speaker 1: than You're having my baby. That's not one of my favorites.
Speaker 1: But he was very nice. I mean, I actually wasn't
Speaker 1: all that worried about the whole thing because I figured,
Speaker 1: you know, this is these kind of things happen. You
Speaker 1: just to refund the money if people wanted back. It
Speaker 1: was all for charity, big deal, go to bit earlier.
Speaker 1: But anyway, he did step in and the only thing
Speaker 1: he asked was that he and Marla the wife at
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, I think it probably was Marla just
Speaker 1: need wanted to sit with John and I at the beginning,
Speaker 1: which he did, and it was fine. What really broke
Speaker 1: any relationship we had was when UM I opened up
Speaker 1: the card or getting into Atlantic City made it easier
Speaker 1: for people to get into Atlantic City because I also
Speaker 1: UM and Nicer the Road Nicer Bridge. UM also opened
Speaker 1: up a piece of property, that's access to a piece
Speaker 1: of property that Steve went owned. It also opened up
Speaker 1: a better access to Trump's second casino, the Marina Casino.
Speaker 1: But because Steve Wynn was coming in, who was Trump's
Speaker 1: arch rival at the Trump's archer, these groups say those
Speaker 1: things changed, so so basically you were dead to him
Speaker 1: as a result of that. Oh yeah, oh yeah, he
Speaker 1: was very He was not a supporter in my re
Speaker 1: election campaign. Shall we say, how did he make his
Speaker 1: displeasure known? Oh? I think he said some things that
Speaker 1: were not terribly nice and tweet about you. I don't
Speaker 1: think what tweeting was around then. It was too long ago.
Speaker 1: I would have if he could have, And you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's just one of those things. It's so
Speaker 1: you endorsed John Kasik in the campaign, then you said
Speaker 1: you'd support Hillary over Trump. At the time, you wrote
Speaker 1: a Hillary presidency promises more of the Obama failed policies.
Speaker 1: Not exactly glowing endorsement there. But she would at least
Speaker 1: walk into the Oval office ready to govern. She would
Speaker 1: be a steady hand on the nuclear code. Do you
Speaker 1: think our current president is an unsteady hand on the
Speaker 1: nuclear codes? Well, Fortunately, they're enough roadblocks put in place
Speaker 1: for that to be um the top concern. But I
Speaker 1: do certainly think I do question his judgment um the
Speaker 1: kinds of things that we're hearing about, what was said
Speaker 1: in the Oval office with the Russians, his disclosure of
Speaker 1: sensitive information. Okay, he did not say it was Israel,
Speaker 1: but he gave enough information that allowed people to go
Speaker 1: backwards and say, this is clearly where it had to come.
Speaker 1: And then in Israel he said, oh, I never mentioned Israel,
Speaker 1: which I never mentioned, which you want to say, oh,
Speaker 1: come on, really, Um, he's his own worst and me
Speaker 1: in many ways. If he didn't tweet things at two
Speaker 1: a m. Things would be a lot quieter. He keeps
Speaker 1: stories going that don't need to keep going, or you know,
Speaker 1: wouldn't be as prominent. But all this stuff with Comey
Speaker 1: and the apparently what he said to the Russians about
Speaker 1: calling called me a nut job, and that he things
Speaker 1: were going to be easier. He didn't say he did
Speaker 1: it to relieve plessure on the Russian probe, but he
Speaker 1: just said it was things were much easier now, so
Speaker 1: you can people draw their own conclusions from that. We
Speaker 1: have to be very careful though he did not say
Speaker 1: I did it because but but he did say he
Speaker 1: did say in an NBC interview that was what he
Speaker 1: was thinking about the Russian investigation. So clearly if it
Speaker 1: walks like a duck, and from a legal point of view,
Speaker 1: I don't think you can make the A to B
Speaker 1: that cleanly were not in a court. But that's all
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. Republic opinion. Clearly, Uh, people believe that
Speaker 1: not his Again, what's so fascinating and scary that that
Speaker 1: every poll that's been done, and particularly John Detal Wilpie
Speaker 1: did one for Harvard for the Kennedy School, and it
Speaker 1: showed people don't trust any institution. They don't trust the news,
Speaker 1: they don't trust the courts, they don't trust the presidency.
Speaker 1: And that's a really bad place for rust be as
Speaker 1: a nation. I mean, where do you turn? That's you know,
Speaker 1: that's the topic of conversation everywhere I go. I just
Speaker 1: went to the graduation of Colorado College because my stepson
Speaker 1: just graduated from there, and the commencement speaker gave an excellent,
Speaker 1: excellent address about truth decay and about how we deal
Speaker 1: with this bifurcated society that now currently exists, and I
Speaker 1: think everyone knows it exists, they bemoan it, and yet
Speaker 1: they don't know how to fix it. How do you
Speaker 1: fix it when people are so partisan and you know,
Speaker 1: they make of alternative facts, but I think they're clearly
Speaker 1: alternative points of view. I wish I knew the answer.
Speaker 1: I wish it were simple, that you could come up
Speaker 1: with one or two answers. But it's something that's going
Speaker 1: to take time. It's really is, and it's it's a
Speaker 1: reinforcing that what we have to do is listen to
Speaker 1: one another, stop shouting. That you can disagree without being
Speaker 1: disagreeable and doesn't make you my enemy because you have
Speaker 1: a different position. If people would just take the time
Speaker 1: to really discuss issues, it's amazing how many points of
Speaker 1: similarity and addressing them you can find. But you know,
Speaker 1: you talk about listening and talking to each other. It
Speaker 1: does sound a tad Kumbaya at this point in time, Christie,
Speaker 1: because I obviously I agree, but it's sort of but
Speaker 1: we have to push back. We have to push back
Speaker 1: harder in the sense of we have to it's so
Speaker 1: easy now to communicate that we need to communicate. One
Speaker 1: of the things that we've found is that if you
Speaker 1: reinforce positive behavior, I mean, if they're for instance, then
Speaker 1: there's a congressman who are doing what you want them
Speaker 1: to do, let them know that most of the time
Speaker 1: we don't. We just bitch at the ones we don't
Speaker 1: who aren't doing what we want them to do. And
Speaker 1: so if you're a representative and you're supposedly representing your
Speaker 1: constituents and all you hear from are the people who
Speaker 1: are saying you're doing a terrible job because that was
Speaker 1: a really awful vote, or don't you dare vote this way,
Speaker 1: and not hearing from the people who say, you know,
Speaker 1: we're we're glad that you're talking to the other side,
Speaker 1: we're glad that you're forming bipartisan coalitions. Then what do
Speaker 1: they do they representing their constituents. They also know that
Speaker 1: if they go against leadership and actually tried it, because nowadays,
Speaker 1: if you reach across the aisle at all, leadership says
Speaker 1: to you, you better watch out, we're gonna get you
Speaker 1: in a primary and we're not going to support you. Uh,
Speaker 1: that's scary stuff. If what you want to do is
Speaker 1: be in office so you can make a difference, are
Speaker 1: you discouraged that Republicans on Capitol Hill haven't grown a pair. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I am, and I'm discouraged that Schumer at the very
Speaker 1: beginning of this administration, in his um what he was
Speaker 1: saying to his members was one of our one of
Speaker 1: the things we want to do is spend every moment
Speaker 1: trying to embarrass the president. I mean, that's not the
Speaker 1: attitude we need. Isn't that what McConnell said, though, when
Speaker 1: when I don't Obama was elected absolutely, but that's neither
Speaker 1: one is right. I mean, the problem is we have
Speaker 1: to stand up as a people and say, no, damn it,
Speaker 1: that's not what we want to hear. Well, you saw
Speaker 1: the same thing at play with Merrick Garland and Neil Gorson.
Speaker 1: It's so an eye for an eye mentality. You knew
Speaker 1: there were several other institutions than in the eighth year.
Speaker 1: You don't get to a point judges anymore, it's hard
Speaker 1: to find. Yeah, yeah, can I ask you more broadly speaking,
Speaker 1: The last time our institution seemed to be under this
Speaker 1: much stress was during Watergate, and I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't remember that the smoking gun tape that
Speaker 1: was at the center of the Watergate scandal was about
Speaker 1: the President conspiring to get the intelligence community to shut
Speaker 1: down an FBI investigation. Familiar. So we now have these
Speaker 1: reports that the President Trump not only tried repeatedly to
Speaker 1: get the FBI director to back off, he asked top
Speaker 1: intelligence officials to get the A and General Rogers, Admiral Rodgers,
Speaker 1: Mike Rodgers, the n S. A. M McCain says, this
Speaker 1: is Watergate size and scale. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1: I do? I absolutely agree. I think that is where
Speaker 1: you know that. So are we heading toward impeachment, resignation
Speaker 1: something like that? I think it would probably be resignation
Speaker 1: rather than ampeachment. Impeachment is a tough thing to prove.
Speaker 1: And now, of course you've got Bob Muller as a
Speaker 1: special counsel, and first of all, he's a dead, honest,
Speaker 1: really above board guy by everybody. But the problem is
Speaker 1: a special counsel is a criminal investigation, which means that
Speaker 1: those and I will say, I thought the Senate investigation
Speaker 1: was moving forward in a pretty bipartisan way very seriously.
Speaker 1: But now what you'll have as a whole lot of
Speaker 1: people who might have been called to testify before the
Speaker 1: Senate or the House, who are not going to want
Speaker 1: to do it because there's a criminal investigation lurking out there,
Speaker 1: and those things also can take a lot of time.
Speaker 1: Besides the fact that the Special Council can be fired
Speaker 1: by the President. But if that happens, let's forget it.
Speaker 1: That's all over. I think if I don't think that
Speaker 1: would ever happen, So it could really slow things down.
Speaker 1: It could because Bob Miller is going to be very,
Speaker 1: very thorough, and a Special Council has to be thorough
Speaker 1: and has to follow every trail wherever it leads. So
Speaker 1: it's going to be it's going to take a while.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're at that stage yet. So for
Speaker 1: for people who aren't necessarily students of Watergate or understand
Speaker 1: how corruption or ethics violations are really investigated on Capitol Hill,
Speaker 1: give us a sense of sort of, So they're all
Speaker 1: these investigations going on, right, You've got the FBI investigation.
Speaker 1: Is that still going on investigation? There's a Senate intelligence investigation,
Speaker 1: the House Intelligence I sent there another over, I mean
Speaker 1: is that aren't there some other congressional investigations going on
Speaker 1: to I think those are the four major ones. There
Speaker 1: maybe some smaller ones that a little finite parts of
Speaker 1: this whole story. There's plenty going on, I mean, Governor,
Speaker 1: a sense of like the time frame and what we're
Speaker 1: dealing with, because I think people feel like they're about
Speaker 1: to explode if the President doesn't do it first. So
Speaker 1: I mean, how how do you see this all kind
Speaker 1: of um rolling out? If you will? Well, a special
Speaker 1: counsel that is probably going to take a lot of time.
Speaker 1: When you say a lot of time, it can take years.
Speaker 1: I mean you look at what happened the Watergate and
Speaker 1: the Special Council and the amount of time that the
Speaker 1: break in was June of Nixon didn't resign intil August
Speaker 1: of seventy, so I mean that was a long time.
Speaker 1: So that's the problem, and that the Senate will go ahead,
Speaker 1: but as I say, it probably won't have access to
Speaker 1: as much information or people as it would have otherwise.
Speaker 1: I mean, they'll what Flynn did and take the fifth
Speaker 1: um constantly, constantly. So I'm not going to tell you
Speaker 1: what I which I mean it shouldn't. But everybody says, Okay,
Speaker 1: that means you're guilty of sin and when you take
Speaker 1: the fifth but it shouldn't. It's it is a constitutionally
Speaker 1: provided um provision for you to not it self incriminate.
Speaker 1: But that right there, you're saying, oh, you'd incriminate yourself
Speaker 1: if you said anything which means you did something bad. Uh.
Speaker 1: The whole thing is is just I can't believe it
Speaker 1: hasn't been more than a couple of months and yet
Speaker 1: this turmoil is roiling. He's doing a very good job,
Speaker 1: it seems overseas right now, but it's not going to
Speaker 1: make all this go away at home. And what about
Speaker 1: Flynn and not coming clean about all the money he'd
Speaker 1: gotten from all these Russians when he was applying to
Speaker 1: get his security clearance renewed, Right, it was insane. Right,
Speaker 1: that's another investigation that's going on into him, just person
Speaker 1: just very specifically. But he will also be caught up.
Speaker 1: And I think that's part of the reason why he
Speaker 1: took the fifth before the Senate, because it wouldn't turn
Speaker 1: over the things, because he knows the Comy investigation is
Speaker 1: going to come after him. All those people, Manafort, Stone,
Speaker 1: all those people are going to be caught up in
Speaker 1: the Stone apparently was very happy when Comey was fired,
Speaker 1: said now I'm having a big cigar. Well, guess what
Speaker 1: I would sound. I was going to say, yeah. By
Speaker 1: the way, the new Netflix documentary Get Me Roger Stone
Speaker 1: for people want to Understan haven't seen it? I have phenomenon.
Speaker 1: It's it's really excellent. But we have to throw to
Speaker 1: a quick break. We'll be back with more from Governor
Speaker 1: Christie Todd Whitman. We're back with former New Jersey Governor
Speaker 1: Christie Todd Whitman. And may I call you Christie? Please? Do?
Speaker 1: Can I sell you CT? I'm kidding, I'll call you
Speaker 1: christ No, you don't see I think that a lot
Speaker 1: of people I you are sort of regal and patrician,
Speaker 1: and I think it's because you come from and I
Speaker 1: grew up on a farm. I'm very good at shoveling.
Speaker 1: You know what, well, do you feel comfortable Do you
Speaker 1: feel comfortable with waspy? You've been called that before. I've
Speaker 1: been called a lot of things. How would you just
Speaker 1: like to be called or how would you like to
Speaker 1: be described? Uh? Somebody who tries to do their best.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, because there was an early
Speaker 1: story on when I first ran that I looked to
Speaker 1: regal in my tweed suit with pearls and every hair
Speaker 1: and place to ever relate to the average voter in
Speaker 1: New Jersey. And so funny how we're so judged by
Speaker 1: our packaging, isn't he? I know I never wore pearl
Speaker 1: U again, speaking of your packaging, I beg your pardner
Speaker 1: being careful in this atmosphere these days. That could have
Speaker 1: all sorts of meanings. I don't. I don't mean it
Speaker 1: in the in the Trump sense of the word. Um.
Speaker 1: You kind of come from Republican royalty. Your parents were
Speaker 1: for decades New Jersey's most prominent Republican couple. Your dad
Speaker 1: helped to build Rockefeller Center. Your mom was vice chair
Speaker 1: of the Republican National Committee, kind of a pioneering woman
Speaker 1: in Republican politics. My grandmother to your grandmother as well
Speaker 1: well her, she was very involved in politics and New
Speaker 1: Jersey and Women's Federation. So did you grow up thinking
Speaker 1: that you'd like to run for office. No, I grew
Speaker 1: up thinking knowing that I wanted to be involved in policy,
Speaker 1: because that's what I'm the youngest of four, youngest by
Speaker 1: eight years, so I was sort of the tail end,
Speaker 1: and I got to hang around the dining room table
Speaker 1: all the time and be at a lot of events
Speaker 1: and things that my parents were doing, and heard the
Speaker 1: conversation about what was going on the community or the
Speaker 1: state of the nation. And we lived overseas for a bit,
Speaker 1: and so I always knew I wanted to be involved
Speaker 1: in policy. I didn't think specifically about running for office
Speaker 1: until I got well into my career. What was it
Speaker 1: about policy that really kind of u turns you on?
Speaker 1: I mean, I could only ask you that question and
Speaker 1: Brian Goldsmith that question, but otherwise it would be ironic.
Speaker 1: It would be a limited number of people have really
Speaker 1: turned off by policy. But something, you know, some point
Speaker 1: of conversation, some the ability to make a positive difference
Speaker 1: in people's lives, to to really affect things in a
Speaker 1: in a way you think they should be going. It's
Speaker 1: um and it's just so involved in people. I've always been.
Speaker 1: I have a short attention span. The longest job I
Speaker 1: ever held was governor for seven years. I like going
Speaker 1: up a learning curve. I like learning new things, and
Speaker 1: I like getting to know and be with people, and
Speaker 1: and that ability. When you think about policy, you're thinking
Speaker 1: about how do you make things better? How do you
Speaker 1: make whatever it is better, whether it's individuals, lives, the environment, whatever,
Speaker 1: and uh, that was just an enormous turn on and
Speaker 1: it was just fascinating. Was is there is there a
Speaker 1: specific area of policy though, that you gravitated toward. Was
Speaker 1: its social justice? Was it environment? What? You know? It
Speaker 1: was all of those. And that's what was so great
Speaker 1: about being a governor because the governor you deal with
Speaker 1: all of it. And people often say, well, what's your
Speaker 1: proudest thing is governor? I said, you know what? From
Speaker 1: making I'm known probably most for the plan to put
Speaker 1: together to to set outside of Manian acres of open space.
Speaker 1: But I also cared about the fact that we did
Speaker 1: redid welfare reform in New Jersey in a way that
Speaker 1: actually supported and sustained the people who were we were
Speaker 1: trying to move off. And I still have people who
Speaker 1: come up to me now saying, you don't know what
Speaker 1: a difference that made. And I am off. I've been
Speaker 1: working for years and my children are proud of me
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing, you know, I mean that
Speaker 1: the right. That's the thing I've always loved about government
Speaker 1: and politics is it's so such a wide variety of
Speaker 1: areas in which you can be involved. Is that challenging
Speaker 1: them to have to have that kind of expertise on
Speaker 1: so many different topics, because I think I could never
Speaker 1: run for office because I would feel like I wasn't
Speaker 1: knowledgeable enough about you are you are exhibiting the biggest
Speaker 1: problem that we have with getting women involved is we always,
Speaker 1: as women, think it's got to be somebody better out
Speaker 1: there at this who knows more than I do. And
Speaker 1: you know what, you give a guy, with all due respect, um,
Speaker 1: you give a guy the opportunity to do something totally
Speaker 1: outside of their spheres of knowledge, and let's fine, bring
Speaker 1: it on. I can learn, well, we can learn to
Speaker 1: I mean jobs. It's I when I when Governor Kane
Speaker 1: asked me to become president of the Board of Public Utilities,
Speaker 1: I knew nothing about regulating utilities, although we did regulate
Speaker 1: garbage then, and I do know something about garbage regulations.
Speaker 1: Oh hey, the first trial that we had was really interesting. Um.
Speaker 1: But in any event, you can learn what you don't.
Speaker 1: The message I give to young people when I speak
Speaker 1: to them is don't try to be an expert and everything.
Speaker 1: Know what it is, you want to do what you
Speaker 1: need to do, and figure out who are the people.
Speaker 1: There's always going to be someone wherever you go, who
Speaker 1: knows more about what you're doing than you do. Find them,
Speaker 1: learn from them, Listen to them, ask them what their
Speaker 1: biggest problems are. If you show people a little bit
Speaker 1: of respect, if you listen to what they're saying, they'll
Speaker 1: really do things for you and and you can learn.
Speaker 1: I think another thing that keeps people from running for
Speaker 1: office is all the criticism, you know, the pressure, people
Speaker 1: saying ugly things about you, and not just about your
Speaker 1: pearls and tweets suits, I mean really nasty things. As
Speaker 1: we've seen the Internet as unleashed. No, it's different, file
Speaker 1: And so what would you say to someone who says,
Speaker 1: male or female like, I just don't have the stomach
Speaker 1: for it. My skin is not big enough to deal
Speaker 1: with all the bullshit that I'm going to have to
Speaker 1: deal with if I put myself out there. Well, I
Speaker 1: mean I've had some pretty rough things said about me,
Speaker 1: particularly towards the end of my career and when I
Speaker 1: was at E p A. And you know, you just
Speaker 1: have to say to yourself, and most of the instances
Speaker 1: that's their problem, not mine. I didn't read. You don't
Speaker 1: want to look at the cartoons. You want to know
Speaker 1: who's shooting at you and why? And so you can
Speaker 1: avoid it if possible, but you can't spend your time
Speaker 1: thinking about it. It. It has gotten much uglier. It
Speaker 1: is much worse. It's different than when I was running.
Speaker 1: There's no question about it. And it's hard to disassociate yourself.
Speaker 1: You will stay up at night and you will thank god.
Speaker 1: Am I doing that bad a job? Am I really
Speaker 1: that awful a person? You have nights like that? Oh? Yes,
Speaker 1: oh yes, everybody does, I think. But again, if you
Speaker 1: if you care more about what you're doing, and if
Speaker 1: you think you're doing the right thing and you're doing
Speaker 1: it in the best way, you know how, you just
Speaker 1: have to have faith in that right. No social media
Speaker 1: back then, and I think many people say, we won't
Speaker 1: wouldn't want to do it to our families, We wouldn't
Speaker 1: want to do it to our spouse. You have to
Speaker 1: sit down and have a long conversation with them about
Speaker 1: what going to be like and what you could possibly face.
Speaker 1: So you left the governorship about a year early to
Speaker 1: become EPA administrator under your friend, President George W. Bush Um.
Speaker 1: One of my favorite stories in preparing for this is
Speaker 1: that you actually gave him his dog Barney right, who
Speaker 1: was the actually paid for him in the end, because
Speaker 1: once he got elected, Yes, he was required to, so
Speaker 1: he paid me. That's very funny. But that was probably
Speaker 1: the toughest position you ever held, if I had to guess,
Speaker 1: in your political life, because you were really caught in
Speaker 1: the crossfire between environmentalists who expected more of you on
Speaker 1: the one hand, and a lot of your colleagues in
Speaker 1: the Bush administration who expected, I guess less of you,
Speaker 1: and the Democrats who didn't want anything, particularly Vice President Cheney,
Speaker 1: who would have fundamentally different view of environmental protection. Can
Speaker 1: you tell us what that experience was like, what the
Speaker 1: conflicts were about, because I think a lot of them
Speaker 1: are very relevant today. I mean it was it was tough.
Speaker 1: I expected to have the environmentalists and the Democrats on
Speaker 1: the other side. I didn't expect to have to do
Speaker 1: the three sixty, not get the kind of support from
Speaker 1: the administration I was hoping for because the President I
Speaker 1: were on the same page most of the time, but um,
Speaker 1: the vice president relations with the President before you took
Speaker 1: the job to make sure you're aligned on these issues.
Speaker 1: I did, and we were, and you know, you'd go
Speaker 1: in and I would go in and meet with them
Speaker 1: and we were on the same page. And then I'd
Speaker 1: leave to go back to the office, and I guess
Speaker 1: the Vice President would come in and things would change,
Speaker 1: and that was not not fun. So you and uh,
Speaker 1: you big fan of Dick Cheney, we're not close personal buddies.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've known him for a long time because
Speaker 1: when I first went down to Washington, it was to
Speaker 1: work with for Don Rumsfeld as when he was a
Speaker 1: congressman going over to the Office of Economic Opportunity, and
Speaker 1: he and Dick Cheney were good friends. And so I've
Speaker 1: met the Vice President several times and he actually, ironically enough,
Speaker 1: as a very close friend of my son's father in law. UM.
Speaker 1: And so I get reports back. Apparently he said there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with me that the year Wyoming wouldn't cure.
Speaker 1: And he said that about you, you'd like carbon I
Speaker 1: don't know. I said, it's not a lot of time
Speaker 1: backpacked in the wind River Mountains, I mean, not a
Speaker 1: pack trip, not backpack. And when you resign as EPA
Speaker 1: administrator about two and a half years later, you said
Speaker 1: at the time that it was for personal reasons, but
Speaker 1: that wasn't accurate. No, it was. I mean I never
Speaker 1: took more than a month to month lease on the apartment.
Speaker 1: E p A was not where I had really wanted
Speaker 1: to go. I cared deeply about the environment, but it's
Speaker 1: a regulatory agency, and with a regulatory agency, you just
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of discretion or leeway to make
Speaker 1: to be creative and how you solve problems and make
Speaker 1: a difference. So and John and I really did hate
Speaker 1: the bifurcated marriage. Um. I hated getting on that train
Speaker 1: on Sunday nights because he had to stay in New
Speaker 1: Jersey for his business. But the specific incident that triggered
Speaker 1: the time of my leaving was about the Clean Air Act.
Speaker 1: As a cabinet member, you weren't elected to anything. It
Speaker 1: was the president of vice president were elected, and you
Speaker 1: your job is to give them your best advice and
Speaker 1: when they make a final decision, you salute and say
Speaker 1: yes or you say And my feeling was that they
Speaker 1: had a right to have an administrator who could sign
Speaker 1: that order in good conscience and carry it out, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't. I just didn't think it was right. And
Speaker 1: in fact, they went to court and it was taken
Speaker 1: to Court, which everything E p A does is and
Speaker 1: they lost because the numbers just weren't incredible. See, you
Speaker 1: have no regrets about resigning. You feel like you did
Speaker 1: the right now. None. It was the right time and
Speaker 1: the right thing. And i'd gotten to the point where
Speaker 1: I think that my pushing back on that for as
Speaker 1: long as I did, had undermined my ability to get
Speaker 1: some other things done too. Up until that point, I mean,
Speaker 1: we got and it's still amazingly enough. And this is
Speaker 1: how dysfunctional Congress has been. The last piece of major
Speaker 1: environmental registered legislation that was passed was in two thousand
Speaker 1: and two brown Field's redevelopment, which is thing we got
Speaker 1: done because I've done it in New Jersey and we
Speaker 1: wrote that, wrote it for the Congress and we got
Speaker 1: it through. They hadn't done anything since nineteen nine. That
Speaker 1: was the first one since nineteen ninety and they've done
Speaker 1: nothing subsequently. And it's not that the environment doesn't need help. Well,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that, Brian, go ahead. Environment being help.
Speaker 1: According to the data, is another record setting year in
Speaker 1: a bad way. The hottest ever recorded Arctic ice pack
Speaker 1: is a record lows sea levels in South Florida. I
Speaker 1: just found this out and I'm sort of astonished by it.
Speaker 1: Sea levels in South Florida have risen three and a
Speaker 1: half inches since an Inconvenient Truth came out in two
Speaker 1: thousand six, even threatening more Lago potentially potentially um Where
Speaker 1: are we on climate? Are there green shoots or glimmers
Speaker 1: of hope or is this pretty much a tragedy waiting
Speaker 1: to happen? Well, I mean the climate is changing, There's
Speaker 1: no two ways about it, and every data point that
Speaker 1: we see just reaffirms the speed with which it's happening
Speaker 1: or increases the concern about the speed. I just finished
Speaker 1: co chairing a test force with ac Counts on Foreign
Speaker 1: relations on Arctic policy and the Arctic. We are an
Speaker 1: Arctic nation to begin with, and the Arctic is is
Speaker 1: worming at twice the rate of the rest of the planet,
Speaker 1: and it is the canary in the coal mine. You
Speaker 1: already have three or four native villages that have moved,
Speaker 1: another thirty some other are going to have to move,
Speaker 1: and you run it, Okay, where do you put them?
Speaker 1: What do you do? How do you move? Who do
Speaker 1: you move? Do you move the house first, or do
Speaker 1: you move the church or the hospital or the grocery store,
Speaker 1: and how do you get groceries to them in the
Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. That's happening all around the world. Um
Speaker 1: Vana Wattu and islands in the Pacific, They're not gonna
Speaker 1: be around. Who takes them? Are they still part of
Speaker 1: the United Nations? Who are those people? And also coastal
Speaker 1: cities here in the United States, not just Miami, but
Speaker 1: you know what this arctic melting portends for millions from
Speaker 1: people in this country. Not to be totally self centered
Speaker 1: and ward looking, but I mean it's just a matter
Speaker 1: of decades before they're going to be severely and absolutely
Speaker 1: well superstarm Sandy. You saw the kind of damage we've
Speaker 1: got for that. Well, as the sea level rises, that
Speaker 1: sort of damage with the tides is going to come
Speaker 1: further and further, intrude further and further into the land,
Speaker 1: and that's going to pollute waterways. It's I mean, it's
Speaker 1: a it's it's happening. Humans don't cause it. Period the end.
Speaker 1: We are exacerbating a natural trend. The Earth has been
Speaker 1: changing since the Earth was formed, and I think environmentalists
Speaker 1: hurt themselves a lot by being so definitive that humans
Speaker 1: cause it, because that just is such a wide opening
Speaker 1: for the naysayers. The really interesting thing is that we
Speaker 1: have proven time and again over decades that we can
Speaker 1: protect the environment and have a healthy, growing economy at
Speaker 1: the same time. It's not an either or I know.
Speaker 1: But why do so many people see it as such
Speaker 1: a black and white issue. Well because, I I believe
Speaker 1: because environmental regulation are easy to hate because when you
Speaker 1: do it, you're causing people to spend money or change
Speaker 1: behavior for a problem they may not see or they
Speaker 1: may not think is real, and that gets a mad
Speaker 1: and frankly, there have been instances of overreach, there's no
Speaker 1: question about it. And you have layers because it's not
Speaker 1: just the Environmental Protection Agency that says that sets them.
Speaker 1: Your Department of Interior does some. You've got local, and
Speaker 1: you've got state and regulations, and it gets to be
Speaker 1: a bureaucratic nightmare. I get it. But the point being
Speaker 1: what people don't realize is two thousand thirteen is the
Speaker 1: most recent year for which we have full statistics, people
Speaker 1: in this country died from dirty airborne related causes. That's
Speaker 1: almost three times as many people who died from auto
Speaker 1: accidents on our highways that year, and yet we spend
Speaker 1: so much time talking about how we can improve safety
Speaker 1: on our highways and in our cars, and yet we
Speaker 1: have this problem all around us. In many ways, however,
Speaker 1: we're it's a result of it's our own problem, because
Speaker 1: we have cleaned up the air, and the water is clean, pure,
Speaker 1: and the land is better protected, and so people don't
Speaker 1: think it's a real problem. And yet all of a
Speaker 1: sudden they're hearing from government they've got to do something
Speaker 1: that's going to cost some money. And if your political
Speaker 1: philosophy depends on the idea that government intervention in the
Speaker 1: economy is bad, and yeah, it's hard to argue for
Speaker 1: it to confront a threat that isn't immediately on the
Speaker 1: horizon or attacking us like isis right? Why do you
Speaker 1: why are you such a loan voice alan Republican voice
Speaker 1: on this issue. Well, they're actually a number of them,
Speaker 1: but I'm not in office and I'm not running for office,
Speaker 1: so it's easier. But so it's too scary to to
Speaker 1: talk about this if you're a Republican because you'll be
Speaker 1: outflanked on the right by people who say it's going
Speaker 1: to hurt the economy, it's right, and you'll have big
Speaker 1: groups like the Koch brothers who will come after you
Speaker 1: in a primary. Um. You know the naysayers, but you've
Speaker 1: got Rex Jellerson, who is our Secretary of State, who
Speaker 1: believes in climate change and thinks we should take some
Speaker 1: action on it. I mean, there are some very prominent
Speaker 1: Republican voices that do believe in it, and their religious
Speaker 1: voices partake Chilly. There's a group of of all different
Speaker 1: religions that have come together to say, you know, this
Speaker 1: is sort of basic that says God gave us this.
Speaker 1: If you want to believe that God gave everything, God
Speaker 1: gave us this, and so we should protect it. Once
Speaker 1: to your point, there are some prominent retired Republicans Jim Baker,
Speaker 1: Hank Paulson, George Schultz, Marty Feldstein who are pushing for
Speaker 1: a carbon tax to deal with this problem, and then
Speaker 1: the revenue that would be gained by the tax would
Speaker 1: be refunded to taxpayers. Mitt Romney tweeted favorably about this.
Speaker 1: Do you think there's any hope of something like that
Speaker 1: actually getting through Republican Congress. I think eventually, and we
Speaker 1: don't know how much longer, we'll have a Republican Congress,
Speaker 1: but I think eventually we will see something like that
Speaker 1: because it's what makes the most sense, it's the most direct,
Speaker 1: it will have the most direct impact because we respond
Speaker 1: very well to financial incentives. And if people see that
Speaker 1: they're paying more for something because it is a carbon
Speaker 1: producer the way it was produced, or it's it's bad
Speaker 1: on that scale, they'll make decisions. It's just the way
Speaker 1: now that the energy star products, the ones that are
Speaker 1: more energy efficient, have become very price competitive. People will
Speaker 1: happily take something that tells them they're going to reduce
Speaker 1: their carbon emissions and that they're going to reduce their
Speaker 1: electricity bills because it makes sense to them, and they'll
Speaker 1: do it, and that's helping. You wrote a piece in
Speaker 1: the Washington Post last December and you said I was
Speaker 1: epa administrator advice for the next one, don't walk back
Speaker 1: environmental progress. What kind of grade would you give Administrator
Speaker 1: Pruett at this juncture? Well, I mean, in fairness to
Speaker 1: Scott Pruett, he does what the President tells him to do,
Speaker 1: although from his past history it would seem he's very
Speaker 1: much in sync with it. And what they've been doing
Speaker 1: is trying to unravel regulations. The good news is they've
Speaker 1: been so slow in making appointments that they haven't been
Speaker 1: able to get it everything that they want to roll back.
Speaker 1: Are there regulations that have outlived their usefulness? Are their
Speaker 1: regulations that where the new technology has super seated them, Yes,
Speaker 1: and we should be looking for those. But to say
Speaker 1: automatically you're never going to have another regulation unless you
Speaker 1: get rid of two others, it just makes no sense.
Speaker 1: And yet that's the way they're proceeding. And so he
Speaker 1: is doing what the president wants him to do. But
Speaker 1: he was picked for that job because he was obviously
Speaker 1: comfortable doing that, and I just have a real problem
Speaker 1: with it. But this does contradict a Trump campaign promise.
Speaker 1: He said he would push for crystal clear, pure water
Speaker 1: clean going to happen, And yet we read every day
Speaker 1: about another regulation that either is being overturned or not
Speaker 1: being enforced, to not being enforced. You can't just if
Speaker 1: those that have gone final and I have the weight
Speaker 1: of law, you can't just do away with them with
Speaker 1: a magic Wand so that's the good news. It's just
Speaker 1: going to take a while to do that. But no,
Speaker 1: you're right, it's just as if the president says he
Speaker 1: wants more coal, bring coal back, but on the other hand,
Speaker 1: he wants to uh pushback on regulations that would make
Speaker 1: it more difficult to extract oil and gas. And frankly,
Speaker 1: the reason coal is fading in this country is not
Speaker 1: because of environmental regulations, so because of economics. Yet we
Speaker 1: want to do more fracking. So you you know, you're
Speaker 1: going to have a conflict here, but that's life. You
Speaker 1: get these conflicts. But coal gets so much attention from
Speaker 1: the president, from the media. And one of my favorite
Speaker 1: stats actually is that the coal industry in this country
Speaker 1: has about fifty thousand jobs. The solar industry alone created
Speaker 1: like fifty thou jobs last year. And yet if you
Speaker 1: were to read the papers or you know, watch newscasts,
Speaker 1: you would think that that we're just a wash and
Speaker 1: coal that is, you know, that has been taken away
Speaker 1: and that now is being brought back. It's not really
Speaker 1: a major factor in our economy. Well it was, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think what we're going back it was better than
Speaker 1: fifty of our energy mix. Now it's down in the
Speaker 1: forties and and dropping. But again, the reason it's dropping
Speaker 1: is not because of environmental regulations. It's dropping because of economics.
Speaker 1: I have to bite on something you said earlier. You said,
Speaker 1: if we still have a Republican Congress, the midterms are
Speaker 1: fast approaching, what do you predict will happen. Well, they're
Speaker 1: certainly gonna lose seats, I think, without question, and gonna
Speaker 1: lose seats. How many is It is hard to say.
Speaker 1: There a number of seats that Democrats are saying are
Speaker 1: more in play than they've ever been a couple of
Speaker 1: New Jersey. At the end of the day, looking at
Speaker 1: those districts, I'm not so sure that there there'll be
Speaker 1: tighter races, there will be more costly racism, They'll be closer.
Speaker 1: I think there is a possibility that at least it
Speaker 1: will get to the point where Republicans will probably have
Speaker 1: to work with some Democrats in order to get things done.
Speaker 1: It won't be quite as free of reign as they've
Speaker 1: as they've had. I have a question about New Jersey.
Speaker 1: Do you have to have Christie in your name to
Speaker 1: be governor? Because Chris Christie obviously he's had a go
Speaker 1: of it as they say, um that down, Yes, he has,
Speaker 1: So how would you assess his his performance as governor?
Speaker 1: And the way he spent his second term. I think,
Speaker 1: as I look back on it, he did some really
Speaker 1: good things in the beginning. I mean, he was able
Speaker 1: to get things done with the legislature, he worked with them,
Speaker 1: he showed himself as a real leader, and I think
Speaker 1: what happened was he started to focus on the next
Speaker 1: job and spent more time focusing on that than he
Speaker 1: did on New Jersey. Although he will say and he
Speaker 1: is trying to move things through now and he's got
Speaker 1: his big emphasis on drugs and drug addiction, and I
Speaker 1: think that's that's appropriate and good. But um, I think
Speaker 1: he got himself caught up in as happens to people
Speaker 1: from time to time, when you everybody around you was
Speaker 1: telling you you are the next presidential material, and that
Speaker 1: happens to people. It happened. It was interesting when I
Speaker 1: ran for the United States Senate. That's what happened to
Speaker 1: Bill Bradley, because he was a head. He is a
Speaker 1: very bright, very decent guy, and I think his problem
Speaker 1: was he just was so convinced he was going to
Speaker 1: be re elected because he had a walk on his
Speaker 1: first reelect sixteen percentage points and was right widely touted
Speaker 1: because of his background as a Rhodes scholar, Princeton graduate,
Speaker 1: New York nick basketball player, Olympic basketball player, and a
Speaker 1: rewriter of the tax code, that he was their next
Speaker 1: presidential candidate, potentially that he didn't pay attention to the
Speaker 1: issues in New Jersey, He just forgot about them. Were
Speaker 1: you surprised that Chris Christie was so all in for
Speaker 1: Donald Trump and it stayed so all in No once
Speaker 1: he once he made the decision, he had to stay
Speaker 1: all in it, and I think he believed it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think he believes in Donald Trump um or was
Speaker 1: going to get something the emphasis or was going to
Speaker 1: get something right well as part of being there as
Speaker 1: an early supporter, that's what happens, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people who decide this is going to be the winner,
Speaker 1: and I want to be with them. And if I
Speaker 1: were Chris Christie, I would be rip ship right now.
Speaker 1: I don't think he's happy. I don't think he's happy.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like Chris Christie about this at all. No.
Speaker 1: I really haven't talked to him since we had the
Speaker 1: Super Bowl New Jersey. I was kind of the last
Speaker 1: time just as Bridge Gate was was breaking and had
Speaker 1: a conversation with about that, how do you think that happened?
Speaker 1: And he was an atmosphere that was created and a
Speaker 1: feeling that I mean, not unlike Donald Trump, Chris has
Speaker 1: he knows who's your friend and who isn't and you
Speaker 1: have to be kind or you're not. And he remembers that,
Speaker 1: and I think that translated, well, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker 1: I don't think that there are some certain parallels there.
Speaker 1: But he knows government, He's known government. He as I say,
Speaker 1: he started off in his first term I thought very
Speaker 1: very well and has kind of moved away from the States,
Speaker 1: spent so much time out of it, working hard for
Speaker 1: other Republican governors, raising money like nobody'd ever seen before
Speaker 1: the r G a Um, he was doing that job,
Speaker 1: but he still had That's why was telling young people,
Speaker 1: you know, do the job you're in. The next job
Speaker 1: will take care of itself. But if you spent your
Speaker 1: entire time looking at planning on this is what I'm
Speaker 1: gonna do next, it's not going to happen. I agree.
Speaker 1: I just tell young people the same thing because I
Speaker 1: think it's important because if you just are looking at
Speaker 1: the horizon, you're not focused on the job at hand,
Speaker 1: you end up doing a terrible job and then you
Speaker 1: run your chances of advancement. But the thing about Chris
Speaker 1: Christy people also have to remember is he really is
Speaker 1: a family person. I mean, he was wonderful to me
Speaker 1: when John was in the hospital and you know, offered
Speaker 1: to send the troopers to come pick me up and
Speaker 1: if I wanted to get away for because we were
Speaker 1: there for so long, for twelve days, and he was
Speaker 1: very thoughtful that way. He can be enormously thoughtful as well.
Speaker 1: It's too bad to see what's happened that he got
Speaker 1: so holy in with Trump and Trump treated him so badly.
Speaker 1: I mean, he just dismissed him and made him like,
Speaker 1: go get his hamburgers, and it was it made it
Speaker 1: seem that way, whether he actually did or not exactly,
Speaker 1: that was just awful. And when he threw a support
Speaker 1: behind Donald Trump, I don't think he expected he would
Speaker 1: be in charge of opioid addiction, which I guess hoping
Speaker 1: for much higher than I think Jared Kushner. That's his job,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Well, everything everything is. When he's not solving
Speaker 1: the Middle East and reforming the government, he's going to
Speaker 1: fix opiot to addiction anyway, Happy to know there's a
Speaker 1: superman for you, right there is the rising young superman. Well, um,
Speaker 1: you mentioned John being in the hospital and you lost
Speaker 1: your husband, I know two years ago, Christie, and I
Speaker 1: think people would like to know a how you're doing
Speaker 1: and be sort of what you're really spending your time
Speaker 1: on today. Well, I'm doing. I still have a business.
Speaker 1: We do energy and environmental consulting, and I'm on a
Speaker 1: bunch of boards some one corporate, aging off the ones
Speaker 1: that pay me and going on to the ones that
Speaker 1: want me to pay them. Unfortunately, it's a long way
Speaker 1: around now. As you get older, you need the ones
Speaker 1: that pay you. Um, but I've as long as I
Speaker 1: stay involved in policy, I'm happy. And as for getting on,
Speaker 1: you just do. I mean, you know, it's just it's
Speaker 1: different for everybody and and you just have to decide
Speaker 1: this is the new reality. There's no alternative here, there's
Speaker 1: no coming back from that. So you just learned to
Speaker 1: deal with it. How many years were you all married?
Speaker 1: That's that's a big, big adjustment. That's a big adjustment.
Speaker 1: It was I think the second year. I'm finding a
Speaker 1: second year harder than the first because I think in
Speaker 1: the second year I finally realizing, no, there is no
Speaker 1: plan big, there is no Uh, it's not just a
Speaker 1: long trip. Um, you know, it's a permanent thing, and
Speaker 1: so you get on. But as I say, I've selling
Speaker 1: my house in Florida and bought a house out in
Speaker 1: Arizona for the winters. And uh, we're doing a lot
Speaker 1: of things with the farm, and the kids have been
Speaker 1: just great and the grandchildren. You're starting as at the farm,
Speaker 1: starting a c S A provenance farms and what are
Speaker 1: you growing? Everything? You name it, We're gonna have it.
Speaker 1: We've got every kind of vegetable and they've got a
Speaker 1: for twenty two weeks you can get if you live
Speaker 1: in our area. They deliver to your door enough for
Speaker 1: a family four every week for twenty two weeks, or
Speaker 1: you can pick. So you're sort of still delivering for
Speaker 1: the people of farmers delivering. We're trying. You're really bad
Speaker 1: a stretch. I thought that was good. I think you
Speaker 1: should be a consultant, and I thought it was clever. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's such a pleasure to talk to you. I've
Speaker 1: always admired you, and um, it's really interesting to get
Speaker 1: your take on the state of the country and the
Speaker 1: state of the world. Thank you so much. Thank you Christy,
Speaker 1: good to see you as always. A big thank you
Speaker 1: to our producer Gianna Palmer and to our sound engineer
Speaker 1: Jared O'Connell. Thanks also to our social media may Vin
Speaker 1: Alison Bresnik, to Emily Beana for her part in producing
Speaker 1: this show, and to Nora Richie for additional editorial assistance.
Speaker 1: And Mark Phillips whoever you are, wherever you are at
Speaker 1: some point I want to meet Mark too. I want
Speaker 1: him to play it my next party. Thank you for
Speaker 1: our theme music. We still really appreciate it. Katie Kurik
Speaker 1: and I are the executive producers this show. And remember
Speaker 1: you can leave us a voicemail. Actually this was the
Speaker 1: Katie part, but I'll still do it at nine two
Speaker 1: to four, four, six, three seven or email us at
Speaker 1: comments at correct podcast dot com somebody air hog exactly.
Speaker 1: You can find me on social media at Katie Curic
Speaker 1: at Twitter and Instagram. My Instagram feed is on fire
Speaker 1: by the way. People check it out. You can see
Speaker 1: me catching a major fish almost thirty pounds by the way,
Speaker 1: recently in Mexico. Also, I'm Katie dot Curic on Snapchat
Speaker 1: and Brian you are Goldsmith be on Twitter and Twitter only, folks,
Speaker 1: when are you gonna have an Instagram account? Have an
Speaker 1: Instagram account? It's only from my family and friends though,
Speaker 1: Oh why do you want to want to apply to Uney?
Speaker 1: I do because I want to see pictures of your
Speaker 1: adorable baby Eliza, and I think probably the world would
Speaker 1: like that as well. But we'll discuss this later. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: do you like our show, Please make your appreciation public
Speaker 1: by rating and reviewing us on Apple Podcasts. And if
Speaker 1: you don't like our show, just you know, sit back,
Speaker 1: shut up, don't say anything, yeah, exactly, Please stifle yourself, Edith,
Speaker 1: as Archie Bunker would say. Meanwhile, don't forget to subscribe
Speaker 1: to our podcast as well, and we'll see you next time.