WEBVTT - Christie Todd Whitman: Political and Climate Change 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.600 There was an early story on when I first ran 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.039 that I looked to regal in my tweed suit with 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.800 pearls and every hair and place to ever relate to 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:16.840 the average voter in New Jersey. And so funny how 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:19.720 we're so judged by our packaging, isn't how I know? 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:26.759 I never wore pearls again. That was Christie Todd Whitman, 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.400 the first female governor of New Jersey, who served between 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.320 nineteen and two thousand one, and someone I've always deeply 0:00:34.440 --> 0:00:41.080 admired because she's come across as level headed, measured, and 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:45.400 really in this very partisan, toxic atmosphere that we're living 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.040 in today, Brian someone who I think was pretty moderate 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:53.600 and certainly listened to both sides, and even when she 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.680 ran for office, it was very difficult for somebody like 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:03.040 Christy Whitman to get through a Republican primary. Mike Murphy, 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.320 who was on this show earlier, was her campaign consultant. 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:08.959 He described to me just even though she was such 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.320 a big star and a great candidate, she was considerably 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.640 to the left of where Republican primary voters were. And 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:18.960 that was back in when that was back and so 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.720 of course that was pre Palin pre Tea Party, pre Trump, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.680 and the world has changed pretty dramatically since then, so 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.000 queery whether somebody like Christy Whitman could get elected to 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:32.440 office in either party today. I've done so many political 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:37.360 interviews and female candidates and office holders are few and 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:41.160 far between. I was hardened to read though. Since Donald 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:45.280 Trump was elected president, something like eleven thousand women have 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.960 been inspired to run for office. So hopefully things will change, 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.720 because I think the record is pretty abysmal when it 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:56.880 comes to electing women to positions of power. Well, it's 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.560 improved a little on the legislative side. There are more 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.040 women in House in the Senate than when Christy Whitman 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.160 was governor, but not so much among chief executives executive 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.600 jobs around the country. There are still very few female governors, 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:12.000 and this is more of an issue I think for 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.400 the voters. We have to be more willing and able 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.960 to imagine women in these roles. I am woman, to 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:23.560 hear me roar in numbers too big to ignore, I'm sorry. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:29.400 Governor Whitman has stayed involved in political discourse, at least, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.600 writing a lot of op eds and opining about the 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.800 state of the environment. As the former head of the 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:36.880 e p A, and of course we talked about climate 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.240 change and whether there are reasons to be hopeful or 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:42.400 whether we should all just move inland and give up now. 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.160 But of course, most Americans probably last remember her as 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.280 the e p A administrator right after None eleven, when 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.520 she infamously said that the air was safe to breathe. 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.320 She later apologized for that mistake because, of course, so 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.920 many first responders got very sick after working down at 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.000 the pile, as it was called, following the terrible events 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.240 at the World Trade Center. I interviewed her for sixty 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:12.400 minutes many years ago about that, and um, she clearly 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:14.920 came to regret that decision because she did put a 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.600 lot of people in danger. And her tenure at the 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:20.600 p A was a very tumultuous one. As we discussed, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:24.799 she had major conflicts with the administration Vice President Cheney, 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:29.560 in particular about climate change, about how power plants should 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.480 be regulated, and other issues, and we got into all 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.640 of that, but more broadly, we talked about the lessons 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.640 that she learned as somebody who was in the arena 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:43.120 taking incoming fire for decades, somebody who took risks and 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:45.600 put herself out there She certainly was born into a 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.480 family where she didn't have to do that, and she's 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.480 in many ways an exemplary public servant. She has a 0:03:52.480 --> 0:03:55.920 long history with President Donald Trump, and the first thing 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.080 we asked her is how she was feeling as she 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.920 is watching things unfold in the nation's capital. What are 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:09.480 you thinking, Christie Todd Whitman, I'm very troubled. I mean, 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:12.720 I've seen this coming for a while. That my book 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.200 back in two thousand and five, I guess it was 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.040 um kind of predicted what was going to go on, 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:19.880 and being in a position to saying I told you 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.480 so is not satisfying at all when it's moved this way. 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.200 I've maintained for a long time that I thought that 0:04:26.240 --> 0:04:28.720 Trump voters and the Bernie Sanders voters were two sides 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:31.080 of the same coin. They were people who were angry 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:34.640 and frustrated and scared at the inaction in Washington and Congress. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:36.520 They didn't know what was happening with their future, and 0:04:36.520 --> 0:04:39.200 they didn't really listen to what their candidates were saying 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.840 in the same way that maybe others were. They just 0:04:41.920 --> 0:04:43.320 wanted to hear they were going to blow up the 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.520 existing system because it just wasn't working for them. Sometimes, 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:49.240 I wonder, do you think people expect too much from 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:52.560 their government? Oh? I think they have very high expectations. 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.359 Let's put it that way. But that wouldn't be hard 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:58.000 nowadays because Congress really hasn't gotten other than the Affordable 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:01.000 Care Act. If you look back over the last eight 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.240 to ten years, there haven't been a whole lot of 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:08.120 major pieces of legislation that have changed the way people live. 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.560 And as they are looking at the economy, not it's 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.680 growing two percent, it's just it's not great. They're worried 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:16.720 about their jobbing. Part of it government can do nothing 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:21.760 about because it is called its development. It is the technology, 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.160 and technology is making a lot of people redundant, and 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.400 we're seeing that and that scares them. When you need 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.960 to worry every day about how you're going to feed 0:05:32.000 --> 0:05:34.640 your family, keep a roof over your head, whether you 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.359 can get your health care, those are real concerns, and 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:40.080 they just didn't see Washington address them. They just saw 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.680 Washington yelling the people yelling at one another over partisan issues. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:47.560 And if you think back, we didn't used to every 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:50.040 vote was not a partisan vote. It used to be 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.800 that there were policy decisions where two sides would come 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:54.480 together and say we've got to do this, and if 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.640 someone had a real problem with a vote, they say, Okay, 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:58.560 you don't have to vote on this one or this amendment. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.920 We'll let you go. Now, every votes a partisan vote. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.560 It's more about partisans politics than it is about policy. 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.000 And as you mentioned, you wrote this book back in 0:06:08.040 --> 0:06:11.479 two thousand five about how the Republican Party needed to 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.600 move to the center. This was before the Tea Party 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.320 and Sarah Palin and certainly before Donald Trump. Why do 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.400 you think we've seen this collapse in not just the center, 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.080 but the constituency for the center in American politics. Well, 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:28.120 I don't think we actually have seen a collapse of 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:30.240 the constituency for the center. What we've seen as a 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:33.240 collapse of people participating in the system. And if there's 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.640 one thing that is good that came out of this 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.120 election cycle is I think that people have finally figured 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:39.720 out that the way to make a difference is at 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.720 the ballot box. Because up until this cycle, if you 0:06:42.800 --> 0:06:46.240 looked at it primaries, the average voter turnout primaries and 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:51.800 this country was about ten for congressional relay elections at 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.400 the top. When they were the top of the ticket 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:57.599 was and presidential. We patted ourselves on the back saying 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:02.120 if we got over Well, when you do that and 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.000 you think about it, particularly in the primaries, who is 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.279 who makes up that ten There the most partisan people, 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.400 and they tend to have an agenda. They have one 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:14.880 or two items about which they cared deeply. And so 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.800 the most partisan people are making the decisions that we 0:07:18.880 --> 0:07:21.280 face in the fall, that everyone else faces in the fall. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:22.920 And then people look at it and say, well, I 0:07:22.960 --> 0:07:24.920 don't like either of these candidates, but just to push 0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:26.880 I'm not going to vote, but just to push back 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.400 against you a little bit on that. Donald Trump has 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:33.520 like an eight five or approval rating among Republicans. I 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:37.080 question which Republicans they're pulling. They're pulling his base. His 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.920 base is very very strong. They're true believers. They're people 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.080 who say the system is so messed up that at 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:45.160 least he's doing what they say. He's doing what he 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:47.320 said he was doing going to do, but he's not. 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:51.200 And eventually I think that will start to percolate down. Um, 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:53.240 he's done some of it though, and he has certainly 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.240 talked to it, and uh, it's interesting early on I've 0:07:57.240 --> 0:07:59.760 heard anecdotally. I can't prove it, but that when he 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:04.080 went first went down after he was nominated to talk 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.480 to the congressional leadership, they started talk to him about 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.040 policy and he said, no, no, I figure out what 0:08:10.080 --> 0:08:12.880 people want to hear, and that's what I tell him. Well, 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.320 let's step back and actually talk about your relationship with 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.880 Donald Trump, if we might, because that goes back quite 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:21.320 a way. So you were, of course governor in New 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:25.480 Jersey while he was a major casino operator in Atlantic City. 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:27.920 When did you meet him? How did you meet him 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.760 and what was that relationship like? Well, I met him 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:33.280 at the very beginning, when after I'd been elected, we 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:36.600 held a big event, fundraising event for charities called Many 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:40.880 Phases One Family in Atlantic City, and um we had 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:44.320 an entertainer who was supposed to do a concert that 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:48.520 night and I it was Barry Manilow. And on the 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.080 day of he suddenly said, oh, I didn't know this 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:54.880 was political, and he backed out. I have suspicions as 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.720 to that might have been just a ted or orchestrated 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.920 but that could be me. Um. Anyway, Donald Trump stepped 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:04.959 up and said, I have um, no, I can't Paul Ankle, 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:08.840 that's right. When was this? This was right after I 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.280 was elected. This was before my inaugural when we did 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.400 uh that was that three days of the weekend before 0:09:14.440 --> 0:09:16.960 the before the inaugural. And he stepped in and Paul 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.560 Anko was wonderful and he was great and Donald Trump, 0:09:21.640 --> 0:09:25.920 I can't stand that song Christie my way is better 0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:29.600 than You're having my baby. That's not one of my favorites. 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:33.160 But he was very nice. I mean, I actually wasn't 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:35.840 all that worried about the whole thing because I figured, 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:37.640 you know, this is these kind of things happen. You 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:39.840 just to refund the money if people wanted back. It 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:43.040 was all for charity, big deal, go to bit earlier. 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:45.360 But anyway, he did step in and the only thing 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:51.640 he asked was that he and Marla the wife at 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.400 the time. Yeah, I think it probably was Marla just 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.000 need wanted to sit with John and I at the beginning, 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:00.280 which he did, and it was fine. What really broke 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.760 any relationship we had was when UM I opened up 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.000 the card or getting into Atlantic City made it easier 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:10.800 for people to get into Atlantic City because I also 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:15.320 UM and Nicer the Road Nicer Bridge. UM also opened 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.000 up a piece of property, that's access to a piece 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:20.720 of property that Steve went owned. It also opened up 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.960 a better access to Trump's second casino, the Marina Casino. 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.360 But because Steve Wynn was coming in, who was Trump's 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:34.200 arch rival at the Trump's archer, these groups say those 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.120 things changed, so so basically you were dead to him 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:39.160 as a result of that. Oh yeah, oh yeah, he 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:41.679 was very He was not a supporter in my re 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.040 election campaign. Shall we say, how did he make his 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:47.120 displeasure known? Oh? I think he said some things that 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.840 were not terribly nice and tweet about you. I don't 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:54.320 think what tweeting was around then. It was too long ago. 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:57.680 I would have if he could have, And you know, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.400 I mean, that's just one of those things. It's so 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.319 you endorsed John Kasik in the campaign, then you said 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.280 you'd support Hillary over Trump. At the time, you wrote 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:11.559 a Hillary presidency promises more of the Obama failed policies. 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:14.520 Not exactly glowing endorsement there. But she would at least 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.120 walk into the Oval office ready to govern. She would 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.080 be a steady hand on the nuclear code. Do you 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.079 think our current president is an unsteady hand on the 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:27.720 nuclear codes? Well, Fortunately, they're enough roadblocks put in place 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:31.040 for that to be um the top concern. But I 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:35.000 do certainly think I do question his judgment um the 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:37.439 kinds of things that we're hearing about, what was said 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:42.080 in the Oval office with the Russians, his disclosure of 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:46.080 sensitive information. Okay, he did not say it was Israel, 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.240 but he gave enough information that allowed people to go 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:52.520 backwards and say, this is clearly where it had to come. 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.760 And then in Israel he said, oh, I never mentioned Israel, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:56.920 which I never mentioned, which you want to say, oh, 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:00.079 come on, really, Um, he's his own worst and me 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.600 in many ways. If he didn't tweet things at two 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.320 a m. Things would be a lot quieter. He keeps 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.240 stories going that don't need to keep going, or you know, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.000 wouldn't be as prominent. But all this stuff with Comey 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:15.000 and the apparently what he said to the Russians about 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.880 calling called me a nut job, and that he things 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:19.680 were going to be easier. He didn't say he did 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.000 it to relieve plessure on the Russian probe, but he 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:27.560 just said it was things were much easier now, so 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.000 you can people draw their own conclusions from that. We 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:31.800 have to be very careful though he did not say 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:35.040 I did it because but but he did say he 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.840 did say in an NBC interview that was what he 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:41.640 was thinking about the Russian investigation. So clearly if it 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:46.120 walks like a duck, and from a legal point of view, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:48.839 I don't think you can make the A to B 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.600 that cleanly were not in a court. But that's all 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.960 I'm talking about. Republic opinion. Clearly, Uh, people believe that 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.920 not his Again, what's so fascinating and scary that that 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.840 every poll that's been done, and particularly John Detal Wilpie 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.520 did one for Harvard for the Kennedy School, and it 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:14.520 showed people don't trust any institution. They don't trust the news, 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.280 they don't trust the courts, they don't trust the presidency. 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:20.160 And that's a really bad place for rust be as 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:24.000 a nation. I mean, where do you turn? That's you know, 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.560 that's the topic of conversation everywhere I go. I just 0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:30.760 went to the graduation of Colorado College because my stepson 0:13:30.880 --> 0:13:34.760 just graduated from there, and the commencement speaker gave an excellent, 0:13:35.040 --> 0:13:40.400 excellent address about truth decay and about how we deal 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:45.440 with this bifurcated society that now currently exists, and I 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:50.720 think everyone knows it exists, they bemoan it, and yet 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.040 they don't know how to fix it. How do you 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:58.960 fix it when people are so partisan and you know, 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.640 they make of alternative facts, but I think they're clearly 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.840 alternative points of view. I wish I knew the answer. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:08.480 I wish it were simple, that you could come up 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.240 with one or two answers. But it's something that's going 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.520 to take time. It's really is, and it's it's a 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.240 reinforcing that what we have to do is listen to 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.680 one another, stop shouting. That you can disagree without being 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.040 disagreeable and doesn't make you my enemy because you have 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:24.120 a different position. If people would just take the time 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:28.120 to really discuss issues, it's amazing how many points of 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.160 similarity and addressing them you can find. But you know, 0:14:32.240 --> 0:14:35.000 you talk about listening and talking to each other. It 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.760 does sound a tad Kumbaya at this point in time, Christie, 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:43.120 because I obviously I agree, but it's sort of but 0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:44.800 we have to push back. We have to push back 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.120 harder in the sense of we have to it's so 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.520 easy now to communicate that we need to communicate. One 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.760 of the things that we've found is that if you 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.920 reinforce positive behavior, I mean, if they're for instance, then 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:01.760 there's a congressman who are doing what you want them 0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:03.840 to do, let them know that most of the time 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:05.680 we don't. We just bitch at the ones we don't 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:07.880 who aren't doing what we want them to do. And 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.240 so if you're a representative and you're supposedly representing your 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.600 constituents and all you hear from are the people who 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.480 are saying you're doing a terrible job because that was 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.280 a really awful vote, or don't you dare vote this way, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:20.920 and not hearing from the people who say, you know, 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.680 we're we're glad that you're talking to the other side, 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:28.320 we're glad that you're forming bipartisan coalitions. Then what do 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.440 they do they representing their constituents. They also know that 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.640 if they go against leadership and actually tried it, because nowadays, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.640 if you reach across the aisle at all, leadership says 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.480 to you, you better watch out, we're gonna get you 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.760 in a primary and we're not going to support you. Uh, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:45.960 that's scary stuff. If what you want to do is 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:48.240 be in office so you can make a difference, are 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:54.040 you discouraged that Republicans on Capitol Hill haven't grown a pair. Yeah, 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.240 I am, and I'm discouraged that Schumer at the very 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.560 beginning of this administration, in his um what he was 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.440 saying to his members was one of our one of 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.680 the things we want to do is spend every moment 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.920 trying to embarrass the president. I mean, that's not the 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.040 attitude we need. Isn't that what McConnell said, though, when 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.520 when I don't Obama was elected absolutely, but that's neither 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:17.680 one is right. I mean, the problem is we have 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:19.920 to stand up as a people and say, no, damn it, 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:22.240 that's not what we want to hear. Well, you saw 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.640 the same thing at play with Merrick Garland and Neil Gorson. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.440 It's so an eye for an eye mentality. You knew 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:31.600 there were several other institutions than in the eighth year. 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.080 You don't get to a point judges anymore, it's hard 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.240 to find. Yeah, yeah, can I ask you more broadly speaking, 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.720 The last time our institution seemed to be under this 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.720 much stress was during Watergate, and I think a lot 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.840 of people don't remember that the smoking gun tape that 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.000 was at the center of the Watergate scandal was about 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:53.360 the President conspiring to get the intelligence community to shut 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:59.920 down an FBI investigation. Familiar. So we now have these 0:17:00.040 --> 0:17:03.160 reports that the President Trump not only tried repeatedly to 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:06.240 get the FBI director to back off, he asked top 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:12.600 intelligence officials to get the A and General Rogers, Admiral Rodgers, 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:16.720 Mike Rodgers, the n S. A. M McCain says, this 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.639 is Watergate size and scale. Do you agree with that? 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.600 I do? I absolutely agree. I think that is where 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.080 you know that. So are we heading toward impeachment, resignation 0:17:27.240 --> 0:17:30.000 something like that? I think it would probably be resignation 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.439 rather than ampeachment. Impeachment is a tough thing to prove. 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:37.199 And now, of course you've got Bob Muller as a 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:40.199 special counsel, and first of all, he's a dead, honest, 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:46.800 really above board guy by everybody. But the problem is 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:51.240 a special counsel is a criminal investigation, which means that 0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.000 those and I will say, I thought the Senate investigation 0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.119 was moving forward in a pretty bipartisan way very seriously. 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.760 But now what you'll have as a whole lot of 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.240 people who might have been called to testify before the 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.120 Senate or the House, who are not going to want 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.400 to do it because there's a criminal investigation lurking out there, 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.879 and those things also can take a lot of time. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.920 Besides the fact that the Special Council can be fired 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:15.760 by the President. But if that happens, let's forget it. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.040 That's all over. I think if I don't think that 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:21.200 would ever happen, So it could really slow things down. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:23.879 It could because Bob Miller is going to be very, 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.280 very thorough, and a Special Council has to be thorough 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:29.760 and has to follow every trail wherever it leads. So 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.520 it's going to be it's going to take a while. 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.159 I don't think we're at that stage yet. So for 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:39.199 for people who aren't necessarily students of Watergate or understand 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:44.120 how corruption or ethics violations are really investigated on Capitol Hill, 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.680 give us a sense of sort of, So they're all 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.240 these investigations going on, right, You've got the FBI investigation. 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:57.280 Is that still going on investigation? There's a Senate intelligence investigation, 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.600 the House Intelligence I sent there another over, I mean 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.199 is that aren't there some other congressional investigations going on 0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.240 to I think those are the four major ones. There 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.720 maybe some smaller ones that a little finite parts of 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:16.760 this whole story. There's plenty going on, I mean, Governor, 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:19.160 a sense of like the time frame and what we're 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.159 dealing with, because I think people feel like they're about 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.400 to explode if the President doesn't do it first. So 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:28.520 I mean, how how do you see this all kind 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:31.920 of um rolling out? If you will? Well, a special 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.560 counsel that is probably going to take a lot of time. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:38.000 When you say a lot of time, it can take years. 0:19:38.200 --> 0:19:39.959 I mean you look at what happened the Watergate and 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:42.280 the Special Council and the amount of time that the 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.520 break in was June of Nixon didn't resign intil August 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.840 of seventy, so I mean that was a long time. 0:19:49.600 --> 0:19:53.639 So that's the problem, and that the Senate will go ahead, 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:56.000 but as I say, it probably won't have access to 0:19:56.119 --> 0:19:59.240 as much information or people as it would have otherwise. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:01.439 I mean, they'll what Flynn did and take the fifth 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:06.359 um constantly, constantly. So I'm not going to tell you 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:10.359 what I which I mean it shouldn't. But everybody says, Okay, 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:12.560 that means you're guilty of sin and when you take 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:15.240 the fifth but it shouldn't. It's it is a constitutionally 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:19.919 provided um provision for you to not it self incriminate. 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.400 But that right there, you're saying, oh, you'd incriminate yourself 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.479 if you said anything which means you did something bad. Uh. 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.040 The whole thing is is just I can't believe it 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:31.840 hasn't been more than a couple of months and yet 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:35.080 this turmoil is roiling. He's doing a very good job, 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.440 it seems overseas right now, but it's not going to 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.520 make all this go away at home. And what about 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.200 Flynn and not coming clean about all the money he'd 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:48.320 gotten from all these Russians when he was applying to 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.760 get his security clearance renewed, Right, it was insane. Right, 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:56.760 that's another investigation that's going on into him, just person 0:20:57.119 --> 0:21:00.199 just very specifically. But he will also be caught up. 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:01.600 And I think that's part of the reason why he 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.840 took the fifth before the Senate, because it wouldn't turn 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.399 over the things, because he knows the Comy investigation is 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:10.119 going to come after him. All those people, Manafort, Stone, 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:12.240 all those people are going to be caught up in 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.959 the Stone apparently was very happy when Comey was fired, 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.840 said now I'm having a big cigar. Well, guess what 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:24.400 I would sound. I was going to say, yeah. By 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.760 the way, the new Netflix documentary Get Me Roger Stone 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.840 for people want to Understan haven't seen it? I have phenomenon. 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.119 It's it's really excellent. But we have to throw to 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:36.919 a quick break. We'll be back with more from Governor 0:21:37.040 --> 0:22:02.879 Christie Todd Whitman. We're back with former New Jersey Governor 0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:06.199 Christie Todd Whitman. And may I call you Christie? Please? Do? 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.960 Can I sell you CT? I'm kidding, I'll call you 0:22:09.880 --> 0:22:15.480 christ No, you don't see I think that a lot 0:22:15.520 --> 0:22:19.280 of people I you are sort of regal and patrician, 0:22:19.560 --> 0:22:21.960 and I think it's because you come from and I 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:25.320 grew up on a farm. I'm very good at shoveling. 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:30.080