1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin the late twentieth and early twenty first century. This 2 00:00:23,836 --> 00:00:27,316 Speaker 1: era we've just been living through has obviously been this 3 00:00:27,436 --> 00:00:32,836 Speaker 1: period of incredible technological change. But in terms of technology 4 00:00:32,876 --> 00:00:37,996 Speaker 1: transforming everyday life, our era is not unprecedented, which is 5 00:00:38,036 --> 00:00:42,476 Speaker 1: to say our era is precedented, I would argue, In fact, 6 00:00:42,476 --> 00:00:46,156 Speaker 1: I have argued that in terms of everyday life, there 7 00:00:46,236 --> 00:00:50,476 Speaker 1: was an even bigger technology driven transformation in the period 8 00:00:50,676 --> 00:00:53,316 Speaker 1: one hundred years earlier, in the period of the late 9 00:00:53,356 --> 00:00:56,676 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds. That period saw the 10 00:00:56,716 --> 00:01:00,116 Speaker 1: coming of cars and planes, the spread of telephones and 11 00:01:00,156 --> 00:01:06,036 Speaker 1: the electric grid, and the spread of refrigeration. Refrigeration allowed 12 00:01:06,116 --> 00:01:09,556 Speaker 1: us to preserve and transport food like never before, and 13 00:01:09,596 --> 00:01:13,516 Speaker 1: in fact wound up really completely transforming the way people 14 00:01:13,676 --> 00:01:17,916 Speaker 1: eat the food we eat every day. I recently interviewed 15 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:21,516 Speaker 1: a journalist named Nikola Twilly who just wrote a book 16 00:01:21,556 --> 00:01:24,836 Speaker 1: on refrigeration and how it changed us. The book is 17 00:01:24,836 --> 00:01:27,876 Speaker 1: called Frostbite, and one of the things the book really 18 00:01:27,916 --> 00:01:32,156 Speaker 1: made clear is how refrigeration changed daily life in this 19 00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:38,196 Speaker 1: really profound way. Niki describes this transformation in microcosm via 20 00:01:38,236 --> 00:01:41,836 Speaker 1: the work of this husband and wife sociologist team, The 21 00:01:41,916 --> 00:01:44,636 Speaker 1: husband and wife visited a town in Indiana, first in 22 00:01:44,676 --> 00:01:48,636 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety and then again in nineteen twenty five, and 23 00:01:48,676 --> 00:01:51,276 Speaker 1: they talk about the different ways life has changed in 24 00:01:51,316 --> 00:01:55,396 Speaker 1: this town, and Niki focuses on the way refrigeration changed 25 00:01:55,396 --> 00:01:56,436 Speaker 1: the way people eat. 26 00:01:57,076 --> 00:02:01,076 Speaker 2: In eighteen ninety, what they found is that the city 27 00:02:01,196 --> 00:02:05,036 Speaker 2: had two diets. It had a winter and a summer diet, 28 00:02:05,476 --> 00:02:11,476 Speaker 2: and then the winter diet was just really meet start carbs, pastry, potatoes, 29 00:02:11,516 --> 00:02:15,156 Speaker 2: things like that, and the only sort of vegetables to 30 00:02:15,316 --> 00:02:20,876 Speaker 2: enliven it were either root vegetables, turnips, cabbages, apples you 31 00:02:20,876 --> 00:02:23,916 Speaker 2: could store in the root cellars, or things you had 32 00:02:23,916 --> 00:02:31,076 Speaker 2: pickled or preserved from summer. But fresh fruit, green vegetables, leaves, berries, 33 00:02:31,636 --> 00:02:32,156 Speaker 2: none of that. 34 00:02:33,236 --> 00:02:36,836 Speaker 1: And you talk about how people would be sick essentially, 35 00:02:36,916 --> 00:02:39,276 Speaker 1: like everybody in town would get sick by the end 36 00:02:39,316 --> 00:02:39,716 Speaker 1: of winter. 37 00:02:40,076 --> 00:02:43,436 Speaker 2: Yeah, they called it spring sickness. Today we'd call it 38 00:02:43,836 --> 00:02:46,636 Speaker 2: sort of a prescore buttic syndrome. 39 00:02:46,796 --> 00:02:50,196 Speaker 3: So like about to have scurvy, like about. 40 00:02:49,916 --> 00:02:53,276 Speaker 2: To have scarvy, not full blown scurvy, but yeah. 41 00:02:53,076 --> 00:02:58,436 Speaker 1: The mild scurvy that everybody got every winter exactly. And 42 00:02:58,516 --> 00:03:03,996 Speaker 1: so then these academics, these sociologists come back in the 43 00:03:04,116 --> 00:03:07,876 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties once, you know, refrigeration is clearly not ubiquitous 44 00:03:07,876 --> 00:03:10,316 Speaker 1: by that point, but it's in the world. And what 45 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 1: do they find, how do they find? The diet in 46 00:03:13,796 --> 00:03:15,156 Speaker 1: this town has changed. 47 00:03:15,876 --> 00:03:20,716 Speaker 2: It has changed utterly. They can buy oranges and lettuce 48 00:03:20,876 --> 00:03:24,636 Speaker 2: shipped from California, and bananas shipped all the way from 49 00:03:24,676 --> 00:03:25,556 Speaker 2: Central America. 50 00:03:25,956 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 3: All but the very, very poorest. 51 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:30,476 Speaker 2: Are beginning to be able to enjoy some of the 52 00:03:30,636 --> 00:03:33,996 Speaker 2: sort of what I call the supermarket in the US today, 53 00:03:34,156 --> 00:03:37,236 Speaker 2: permanent global summertime. You know, you can have anything you 54 00:03:37,276 --> 00:03:40,916 Speaker 2: want at any time. Spring sickness has been alleviated. No 55 00:03:42,076 --> 00:03:46,396 Speaker 2: one speaks of spring sickness anymore. And it's totally a 56 00:03:47,316 --> 00:03:50,116 Speaker 2: you know, the older generation remember it, the younger don't. 57 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:58,556 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. My 58 00:03:58,636 --> 00:04:01,556 Speaker 1: guest today is Nikki Twilly. Her new book, Frostbite is 59 00:04:01,596 --> 00:04:06,356 Speaker 1: full of useful insights into science and markets and technological change. Also, 60 00:04:06,556 --> 00:04:09,716 Speaker 1: the book has just a bunch of good stories, including 61 00:04:09,876 --> 00:04:12,956 Speaker 1: but not limited to the central role of beer in 62 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:17,276 Speaker 1: human history, the shockingly complex technology that goes into the 63 00:04:17,316 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 1: bags of salad greens on the shelf at the grocery store, 64 00:04:20,716 --> 00:04:24,916 Speaker 1: and why the technological frontier and refrigeration may mean that 65 00:04:24,956 --> 00:04:27,836 Speaker 1: we don't need to keep so much stuff so cold. 66 00:04:28,796 --> 00:04:32,036 Speaker 1: My conversation with Nikki started more or less at the beginning. 67 00:04:33,316 --> 00:04:37,076 Speaker 2: Humans have been able to control fire since before we 68 00:04:37,076 --> 00:04:40,436 Speaker 2: were even modern humans. That goes way back heat. 69 00:04:40,636 --> 00:04:43,116 Speaker 1: Heat we got, heat came early all. 70 00:04:42,956 --> 00:04:45,916 Speaker 2: Over it, and some people argue that's what made us human, 71 00:04:45,996 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 2: you know, the ability to cook and then feed our 72 00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:49,436 Speaker 2: big brains, et cetera. 73 00:04:50,556 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 3: Cold much trickier. 74 00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:58,916 Speaker 2: All the great minds you know, Newton, Galileo, Robert Boyle, 75 00:04:59,076 --> 00:05:02,716 Speaker 2: all of the scientists that you've heard of. Leonardo da 76 00:05:02,796 --> 00:05:08,116 Speaker 2: Vinci tried to figure out where on Earth cold came from. 77 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:12,516 Speaker 2: But yeah, seventeen fifty five, a Scottish doctor, almost as 78 00:05:12,516 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 2: a party trick, figured out how to freeze water. His 79 00:05:18,436 --> 00:05:20,756 Speaker 2: A pupil of his had noticed that if you put 80 00:05:21,316 --> 00:05:26,636 Speaker 2: a thermometer in ether, which evaporates very quickly, and when 81 00:05:26,676 --> 00:05:31,356 Speaker 2: something evaporates it pulls heat away. The energy of turning 82 00:05:31,396 --> 00:05:34,876 Speaker 2: that thing that liquid into gas pulls heat away, so 83 00:05:34,916 --> 00:05:37,676 Speaker 2: you get a cooling sensation. He used a bunch of 84 00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:40,076 Speaker 2: different liquids to try and make this work. He used 85 00:05:40,636 --> 00:05:45,996 Speaker 2: chili oil, he used brandy, he used menthol he you know, 86 00:05:46,036 --> 00:05:47,836 Speaker 2: he was going for all the sort of ones that 87 00:05:47,916 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 2: give you a tingly sensation logic. But in the end 88 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:56,836 Speaker 2: he did manage to create a setup that froze water 89 00:05:57,036 --> 00:06:00,036 Speaker 2: for the first time. First it was this was the 90 00:06:00,076 --> 00:06:02,436 Speaker 2: first time seventeen fifty five that humans were able to 91 00:06:02,476 --> 00:06:06,516 Speaker 2: make cold on demand. And he was just like, well, 92 00:06:06,516 --> 00:06:08,396 Speaker 2: this seems kind of interesting, but I don't really know 93 00:06:08,436 --> 00:06:11,076 Speaker 2: what to do with it, so others should investigate. And 94 00:06:11,116 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 2: no one did anything for one hundred years because it 95 00:06:13,556 --> 00:06:14,716 Speaker 2: was like, what are we going to do with this? 96 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:15,676 Speaker 2: It's a party trick. 97 00:06:16,236 --> 00:06:18,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, that part is wild, right, It's like, here's this 98 00:06:19,036 --> 00:06:22,276 Speaker 1: giant breakthrough, We're ready, and then crickets. 99 00:06:22,876 --> 00:06:26,716 Speaker 2: It's you know, there's I quote a line from Robert 100 00:06:26,756 --> 00:06:30,196 Speaker 2: Browning in the book, humanity's reach had exceeded its grasp. 101 00:06:30,676 --> 00:06:32,796 Speaker 2: We could we had figured out how to do something, 102 00:06:33,116 --> 00:06:35,596 Speaker 2: but we didn't know what to do with it. You know. 103 00:06:35,716 --> 00:06:38,436 Speaker 2: It just that, yes, the picture of what you could 104 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:41,436 Speaker 2: do with cold wasn't there yet, right. 105 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:43,916 Speaker 1: And and you write about that, right. You point out 106 00:06:43,916 --> 00:06:48,116 Speaker 1: that in the eighteen hundreds, the first kind of industrialization 107 00:06:48,196 --> 00:06:51,036 Speaker 1: of cold that emerges is not from this new technology 108 00:06:51,076 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: but from a guy just selling ice, just like cutting 109 00:06:54,356 --> 00:06:56,516 Speaker 1: ice out of frozen lakes and putting it on ships 110 00:06:56,836 --> 00:07:00,516 Speaker 1: and sending that around the world and selling that. And 111 00:07:00,556 --> 00:07:04,196 Speaker 1: it's not until like one hundred years after that Scottish 112 00:07:04,236 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 1: doctor inventing refrigeration that this guy in Australia, James Harrison, 113 00:07:09,956 --> 00:07:13,756 Speaker 1: who you write about, He's like, oh, maybe refrigeration could 114 00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:16,996 Speaker 1: be you know, a business, So tell me about that 115 00:07:17,036 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 1: piece of it. Tell me about James Harrison. 116 00:07:19,436 --> 00:07:22,196 Speaker 2: So, as with many things with technology, a few different 117 00:07:22,196 --> 00:07:23,996 Speaker 2: people are fiddling about with us at the same time 118 00:07:24,036 --> 00:07:27,676 Speaker 2: and making prototypes, and it's to do with who actually 119 00:07:27,716 --> 00:07:31,156 Speaker 2: gets it going. But James Harrison, son of a Scottish 120 00:07:31,196 --> 00:07:35,796 Speaker 2: salmon farmer, went to emigrated to Australia, as many British 121 00:07:35,836 --> 00:07:38,196 Speaker 2: people did at the time, worked as a printer. He 122 00:07:38,276 --> 00:07:42,196 Speaker 2: was actually a journalist, wrote and printed the local newspaper 123 00:07:42,556 --> 00:07:49,196 Speaker 2: near Brisbane, and he printing in Australia's summer heat. He 124 00:07:49,356 --> 00:07:53,076 Speaker 2: noticed that if he wiped ether over the type, then 125 00:07:53,156 --> 00:07:56,596 Speaker 2: the ink didn't smudge because of that cooling effect. Again, 126 00:07:56,596 --> 00:07:59,996 Speaker 2: it would evaporate off and at the time natural ice 127 00:08:00,316 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 2: was reaching Australia, but it was expensive, the amount that 128 00:08:03,796 --> 00:08:05,836 Speaker 2: had melted by the time it had got to Australia 129 00:08:05,836 --> 00:08:08,556 Speaker 2: in the distance, etc. It was expensive and it was rare. 130 00:08:09,196 --> 00:08:11,356 Speaker 2: It was like, I bet I could use this either 131 00:08:11,436 --> 00:08:14,636 Speaker 2: thing and build a refrigeration machine. I mean, he blew 132 00:08:14,716 --> 00:08:18,436 Speaker 2: himself up several times. There was many sets of eyebrows 133 00:08:18,476 --> 00:08:22,316 Speaker 2: were lost, but he ended up with a functioning machine. 134 00:08:22,396 --> 00:08:26,876 Speaker 2: And he was the first one to sell a refrigeration machine, 135 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:30,956 Speaker 2: something that was capable at first, not of cooling things, 136 00:08:30,996 --> 00:08:34,316 Speaker 2: but of cooling water, of making ice. This is another 137 00:08:34,356 --> 00:08:36,596 Speaker 2: funny thing, like humans didn't think, oh, we could just 138 00:08:36,676 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 2: cool a room. They thought they were only used to 139 00:08:39,316 --> 00:08:40,036 Speaker 2: natural cold. 140 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:42,796 Speaker 1: Ice is cold. If we want something to be cold, 141 00:08:42,876 --> 00:08:45,476 Speaker 1: let's freeze water and make it ice. Right, That's like 142 00:08:45,596 --> 00:08:50,196 Speaker 1: step one exactly. And who is his who is his market? 143 00:08:50,196 --> 00:08:52,316 Speaker 1: Who's he selling ice to brewers? 144 00:08:52,436 --> 00:08:55,876 Speaker 2: One hundred percent brewers? You know some people credit beer 145 00:08:55,996 --> 00:08:59,636 Speaker 2: with being you know why humans got into agriculture and 146 00:08:59,676 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 2: domesticating grain and settling down forming civilization because we wanted 147 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:05,756 Speaker 2: to drink. 148 00:09:06,196 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, you mentioned that in passing in the book. That's 149 00:09:08,436 --> 00:09:10,836 Speaker 1: like one sentence in the book. And I read it 150 00:09:10,876 --> 00:09:13,676 Speaker 1: and I thought, is it true? I mean, nobody knows 151 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 1: if it's true, but like, how plausible is that theory? 152 00:09:15,956 --> 00:09:17,316 Speaker 3: It's a pretty plausible theory. 153 00:09:17,396 --> 00:09:19,796 Speaker 2: Like this is a theory that is subscribed to by 154 00:09:21,116 --> 00:09:27,236 Speaker 2: many archaeologists and reasonably backed up by residue in pots. 155 00:09:27,436 --> 00:09:31,036 Speaker 2: People were definitely making alcohol almost the first thing they 156 00:09:31,116 --> 00:09:32,716 Speaker 2: did with their grains. 157 00:09:33,396 --> 00:09:37,036 Speaker 1: What is the Homer Simpson line? Beer the cause of 158 00:09:37,236 --> 00:09:40,236 Speaker 1: and solution to all of our problems? Pretty much but 159 00:09:40,516 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 1: perhaps historically true, right if you think of the rise 160 00:09:44,156 --> 00:09:47,756 Speaker 1: of agriculture, as you know, the creation of many many 161 00:09:47,796 --> 00:09:51,196 Speaker 1: problems and then the solution to many many problems exactly. 162 00:09:51,236 --> 00:09:52,556 Speaker 3: And ditto refrigeration. 163 00:09:53,236 --> 00:09:56,796 Speaker 1: So yeah, so why are brewers the first market for 164 00:09:57,756 --> 00:09:58,756 Speaker 1: artificial refrigeration? 165 00:09:59,436 --> 00:10:05,796 Speaker 2: So you can make beer without refrigeration, it's just and 166 00:10:06,116 --> 00:10:08,236 Speaker 2: if you can drink it warm. I grew up in 167 00:10:08,276 --> 00:10:12,676 Speaker 2: England and people do still it's not my taste, but you. 168 00:10:12,636 --> 00:10:16,356 Speaker 1: Know, technology, one hundred years of technology notwithstanding. 169 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:19,676 Speaker 2: Notwithstanding it, did you know why? It's actually a flavor thing. 170 00:10:20,836 --> 00:10:24,476 Speaker 2: Things taste more bitter when they're warmer, and if you 171 00:10:24,556 --> 00:10:27,236 Speaker 2: are looking for that taste in your beer, as British 172 00:10:27,236 --> 00:10:29,156 Speaker 2: people are, like oh, I'll have a pint of bitter. 173 00:10:29,276 --> 00:10:33,916 Speaker 2: They say, well, then warmer is better. But the point 174 00:10:33,996 --> 00:10:37,116 Speaker 2: is that lager was having a boom in popularity, in 175 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:41,076 Speaker 2: particular because Germans were emigrating everywhere and bringing with them 176 00:10:41,116 --> 00:10:44,876 Speaker 2: their love for lagger and lagger yeast doesn't really function 177 00:10:44,956 --> 00:10:49,076 Speaker 2: particularly well above fifty degrees and so in the Laggering 178 00:10:49,156 --> 00:10:52,516 Speaker 2: caves in Saint Louis and Brooklyn it was getting too 179 00:10:52,596 --> 00:10:56,116 Speaker 2: hot in summer to make beer. And I mean summer 180 00:10:56,156 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 2: is when beer tastes best. So this was a crisis. 181 00:11:02,236 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 2: And the brewers were huge consumers of natural ice. But 182 00:11:06,036 --> 00:11:10,516 Speaker 2: then you know, there would be natural ice famines. If 183 00:11:10,516 --> 00:11:13,356 Speaker 2: there was a warm winter, there wouldn't be enough natural 184 00:11:13,396 --> 00:11:15,796 Speaker 2: ice to go around. The price would go up, and 185 00:11:15,916 --> 00:11:19,956 Speaker 2: also increasingly as cities got bigger, and in an era 186 00:11:20,156 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 2: before you know sanitation, the natural ice was getting polluted 187 00:11:25,716 --> 00:11:26,556 Speaker 2: and really dirty. 188 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:27,716 Speaker 3: So yes, it. 189 00:11:27,796 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 1: Seeing of ice in a cave in a basement in 190 00:11:30,756 --> 00:11:33,916 Speaker 1: Brooklyn in eighteen seventy like that is nasty. 191 00:11:34,076 --> 00:11:38,596 Speaker 2: There was a certain in the summer, certain funkiness, certain funkiness, 192 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:41,516 Speaker 2: let's put it that way. So they were the early 193 00:11:41,556 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 2: adopters of this, this refrigeration technology. The first refrigerating machines 194 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:51,356 Speaker 2: ever sold were both to breweries, one in London, one 195 00:11:51,396 --> 00:11:56,676 Speaker 2: in Australia, and they are the ones who also pioneered 196 00:11:56,716 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 2: the whole idea of like, wait, we don't have to 197 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:02,916 Speaker 2: make ice, we could just cool the cellar. And that 198 00:12:02,996 --> 00:12:05,556 Speaker 2: was actually a brewer in Brooklyn figured that out. 199 00:12:05,476 --> 00:12:08,036 Speaker 1: Sort of cutting out the middleman. Right, there's this moment 200 00:12:08,396 --> 00:12:10,516 Speaker 1: which is kind of beautiful in a like history of 201 00:12:10,556 --> 00:12:12,996 Speaker 1: technology way, where they're like, we want the room to 202 00:12:13,036 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: be cool. We know ice is cold. We've got this machine, 203 00:12:17,276 --> 00:12:20,316 Speaker 1: and it just takes what years? How long does it 204 00:12:20,356 --> 00:12:22,836 Speaker 1: take before anybody figures out that you don't actually need 205 00:12:22,876 --> 00:12:25,396 Speaker 1: to melt water into ice put the ice in the room, 206 00:12:25,476 --> 00:12:26,836 Speaker 1: you can just cool the room. 207 00:12:27,116 --> 00:12:28,676 Speaker 3: About five years? 208 00:12:28,756 --> 00:12:32,876 Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, like a generation. Yeah, the technology is right there. 209 00:12:32,996 --> 00:12:35,556 Speaker 1: It's just like an insight problem exactly. 210 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:38,036 Speaker 2: They did just I mean, if you're used to thinking 211 00:12:38,076 --> 00:12:41,516 Speaker 2: of cold as a property of ice, yea, then seeing 212 00:12:41,556 --> 00:12:44,076 Speaker 2: it as not is sort. 213 00:12:43,836 --> 00:12:46,676 Speaker 1: Of a leap. Yeah. No one in history has ever 214 00:12:46,796 --> 00:12:50,196 Speaker 1: used a machine to cool air exactly until somebody. 215 00:12:50,236 --> 00:12:54,276 Speaker 2: Yeah, until until you know, this brewer in Brooklyn came 216 00:12:54,316 --> 00:12:57,836 Speaker 2: along and did that. And it was a huge improvement. 217 00:12:57,916 --> 00:13:01,396 Speaker 2: You can imagine like ice melts, it's funky, it's disgusting. 218 00:13:01,996 --> 00:13:06,876 Speaker 2: Now you have this clean, dry refrigeration machine just cooling 219 00:13:06,876 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 2: the room. The only problem was these were all prototypes. 220 00:13:11,116 --> 00:13:16,236 Speaker 2: They're massive, they use very explosive chemicals, and they're steam powered, 221 00:13:16,276 --> 00:13:20,836 Speaker 2: so they're constantly blowing up. They're unensurable, they're unreliable. Every 222 00:13:20,876 --> 00:13:25,396 Speaker 2: single one is unique because they're all prototypes. So it 223 00:13:25,676 --> 00:13:28,756 Speaker 2: just took Whenever I sort of look back at this history, 224 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:30,796 Speaker 2: I have to remind myself it took a long time 225 00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:33,436 Speaker 2: because there was a lot to figure out. It was 226 00:13:33,476 --> 00:13:36,796 Speaker 2: a French monk who eventually figured, oh, if we put 227 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:40,196 Speaker 2: the compressor, the thing that sort of compresses the refrigerant 228 00:13:40,276 --> 00:13:42,916 Speaker 2: so that it can evaporate again, if we put that 229 00:13:43,276 --> 00:13:47,516 Speaker 2: in an enclosed container, that's going to work much better 230 00:13:47,516 --> 00:13:50,036 Speaker 2: because then it won't you know, keep breaking down. And 231 00:13:50,076 --> 00:13:52,316 Speaker 2: he did that because he wanted, you know, to chill 232 00:13:52,356 --> 00:13:56,756 Speaker 2: the communion wine in the south of front, so you're adjacent. 233 00:13:57,396 --> 00:13:58,876 Speaker 2: It's all alcohol in the end. 234 00:13:59,276 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 1: And by the way that you know, that insight that 235 00:14:02,836 --> 00:14:06,916 Speaker 1: the monk had of using a hermetically sealed compressor, like 236 00:14:07,196 --> 00:14:10,796 Speaker 1: that's basically the way referreerators work today, right, Like, that's 237 00:14:10,836 --> 00:14:11,916 Speaker 1: the basic idea. 238 00:14:12,036 --> 00:14:18,476 Speaker 2: Still, everything about the early refrigerator is basically the same 239 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,436 Speaker 2: as the refrigerator we use today, except we're using electricity 240 00:14:21,516 --> 00:14:25,436 Speaker 2: rather than steam, and the chemicals we use are you know, 241 00:14:25,476 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 2: we're not using ether anymore. We're using various things with 242 00:14:29,276 --> 00:14:35,316 Speaker 2: extremely long names, but otherwise the principle, the mechanics identical. 243 00:14:35,636 --> 00:14:37,916 Speaker 1: So you're right about the way people take this technology 244 00:14:37,956 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 1: and extend it so that you can keep trucks cold 245 00:14:41,796 --> 00:14:44,676 Speaker 1: and you can keep ships cold. Right, and then we 246 00:14:44,716 --> 00:14:47,876 Speaker 1: get this world, this thing that becomes called the cold chain, 247 00:14:47,956 --> 00:14:50,476 Speaker 1: which is a world where we can keep food cold 248 00:14:50,516 --> 00:14:52,836 Speaker 1: from the moment you know, a vegetable is picked or 249 00:14:52,876 --> 00:14:56,436 Speaker 1: an animal is slaughtered, basically until the time I pull 250 00:14:56,476 --> 00:14:58,876 Speaker 1: it out of my fridge or my freezer to cook it. 251 00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:01,756 Speaker 1: And once we have this cold chain, people start to 252 00:15:02,436 --> 00:15:06,356 Speaker 1: kind of rethink food in a bigger way. And there's 253 00:15:06,436 --> 00:15:09,116 Speaker 1: a few pieces of that of that kind of rethinking 254 00:15:09,156 --> 00:15:11,196 Speaker 1: that I want to talk about from the book. So 255 00:15:11,716 --> 00:15:15,236 Speaker 1: tell me about this thing called the low temperature research station. 256 00:15:16,276 --> 00:15:19,396 Speaker 2: No one had any clue what temperature things should be 257 00:15:19,436 --> 00:15:22,596 Speaker 2: at to last the longest, but not freeze and not 258 00:15:22,756 --> 00:15:26,036 Speaker 2: you know, or not turned brown or whatever. No one 259 00:15:26,116 --> 00:15:28,516 Speaker 2: had any clue like what should be stored with what 260 00:15:29,116 --> 00:15:32,676 Speaker 2: and for how long. All of that had to be 261 00:15:32,876 --> 00:15:36,516 Speaker 2: figured out, and so the Low Temperature Research Station was 262 00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:38,276 Speaker 2: really the first attempt to do that. It was set 263 00:15:38,316 --> 00:15:42,196 Speaker 2: up by the British government post World War One. Britain 264 00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:45,236 Speaker 2: is a very small little island filled with a lot 265 00:15:45,276 --> 00:15:48,516 Speaker 2: of people, and even back then it imported most of 266 00:15:48,556 --> 00:15:52,316 Speaker 2: its food and as German you boats were sinking ships 267 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:56,356 Speaker 2: bringing food from the colonies. The British government were like, huh, 268 00:15:56,396 --> 00:15:59,036 Speaker 2: we should figure out how to keep a supply on hand, 269 00:15:59,196 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 2: sort of a reserve. This is a matter of national security. 270 00:16:03,396 --> 00:16:06,036 Speaker 2: We can't just do a just in time system, you know. 271 00:16:06,956 --> 00:16:12,356 Speaker 2: And so they set up this Low Temperature Research Station 272 00:16:12,516 --> 00:16:15,516 Speaker 2: where a bunch of scientists tackled everything. I mean, they 273 00:16:15,516 --> 00:16:19,556 Speaker 2: looked into meat. In the book, I spend most of 274 00:16:19,596 --> 00:16:22,476 Speaker 2: my time looking at how they studied apples. Apples were 275 00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:25,716 Speaker 2: a huge fruit at the time. This is before the 276 00:16:25,836 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 2: rise of the banana, so to speak, and the apple 277 00:16:29,036 --> 00:16:32,476 Speaker 2: was kind of it and apples would come from the 278 00:16:32,516 --> 00:16:38,276 Speaker 2: colonies and need to be stored, and there was you know, 279 00:16:38,436 --> 00:16:42,116 Speaker 2: a whole set of research going on into how do 280 00:16:42,196 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 2: you store apples, And it's not just a matter of temperature, 281 00:16:45,276 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 2: as it turns out, it's also a matter of what 282 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:50,476 Speaker 2: the apple is breathing. And this was the thing I 283 00:16:50,516 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 2: didn't really realize until I wrote this book. But when 284 00:16:52,476 --> 00:16:58,676 Speaker 2: you harvest produce, it's still alive, it's still metabolizing, it's 285 00:16:58,716 --> 00:17:02,636 Speaker 2: still breathing, and like us, it has a certain number 286 00:17:02,636 --> 00:17:04,316 Speaker 2: of breaths left until it dies. 287 00:17:05,196 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: When you say breathing, it's taking in what it's not 288 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:13,556 Speaker 1: is it oxygen? It's so, it's not the usual. 289 00:17:13,676 --> 00:17:18,116 Speaker 3: It's not it's not so distance No, huh. 290 00:17:17,436 --> 00:17:19,756 Speaker 1: So what what is it taking in? And what is 291 00:17:19,796 --> 00:17:20,636 Speaker 1: it putting out? 292 00:17:20,836 --> 00:17:23,916 Speaker 2: It's taking an oxygen and putting out carbon dioxide, just 293 00:17:24,076 --> 00:17:24,676 Speaker 2: like us. 294 00:17:24,796 --> 00:17:25,636 Speaker 3: Just like us. 295 00:17:25,956 --> 00:17:30,236 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just they're just like us, and just like us, 296 00:17:30,356 --> 00:17:33,076 Speaker 2: they have a certain number of breaths before they die. 297 00:17:33,356 --> 00:17:35,716 Speaker 2: We know this about ourselves so that we don't tend 298 00:17:35,756 --> 00:17:36,476 Speaker 2: to think about. 299 00:17:36,276 --> 00:17:40,156 Speaker 1: It very much a lot, to be honest. But whatever. 300 00:17:41,436 --> 00:17:44,276 Speaker 1: So what do they figure out about apples at the 301 00:17:44,476 --> 00:17:47,396 Speaker 1: at the Low Temperature Research Station. 302 00:17:47,396 --> 00:17:49,596 Speaker 2: Well, they figure out that you can make an apple 303 00:17:49,716 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 2: breathe much more slowly if you reduce the oxygen levels. 304 00:17:54,556 --> 00:17:58,556 Speaker 2: And they figure this out by putting apples in a 305 00:17:59,836 --> 00:18:03,916 Speaker 2: in a vasoline lined coffin, they call it sitting them 306 00:18:03,956 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 2: in there. You suck out the oxygen, and there's this, 307 00:18:07,156 --> 00:18:09,276 Speaker 2: there's this sort of it's a finely tuned thing. You 308 00:18:09,276 --> 00:18:12,116 Speaker 2: can't remove all the oxygen because then the apples will 309 00:18:12,156 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 2: just ferment, and that is then it's all over your cider. Yeah, 310 00:18:17,156 --> 00:18:20,276 Speaker 2: so you need to get it low enough so that 311 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:25,276 Speaker 2: they're still breathing, just breathing as slowly as possible. And 312 00:18:25,316 --> 00:18:28,876 Speaker 2: that actually varies by apple species. So you might be 313 00:18:28,916 --> 00:18:30,876 Speaker 2: able to take a Pink Lady down to you know, 314 00:18:30,956 --> 00:18:34,956 Speaker 2: zero point five percent oxygen, but a Red Delicious only 315 00:18:34,956 --> 00:18:37,716 Speaker 2: down to two percent. But the point is you're sort 316 00:18:37,756 --> 00:18:42,956 Speaker 2: of putting the apple into almost suspended animation. It's just 317 00:18:43,116 --> 00:18:47,236 Speaker 2: breathing as slowly as possible, and it's it's sort of 318 00:18:47,316 --> 00:18:50,916 Speaker 2: like if you play the podcast on like half speed, 319 00:18:50,956 --> 00:18:53,636 Speaker 2: it takes twice as long, while the apple that is 320 00:18:53,676 --> 00:18:56,916 Speaker 2: breathing at you know, half speed, lives twice as long. 321 00:18:57,156 --> 00:19:01,116 Speaker 2: And so they figured this out, put it into commercial practice, 322 00:19:01,156 --> 00:19:03,596 Speaker 2: and this is how apples are stored today. This is 323 00:19:03,596 --> 00:19:05,596 Speaker 2: why you can go to the store right now, which 324 00:19:05,596 --> 00:19:08,716 Speaker 2: is before the apple season starts, and by a Washington 325 00:19:08,756 --> 00:19:11,236 Speaker 2: State apple and it will be juicy and fresh and 326 00:19:11,356 --> 00:19:12,876 Speaker 2: also nearly a year old. 327 00:19:13,076 --> 00:19:16,436 Speaker 1: And is temperature also a part of that formula to 328 00:19:16,516 --> 00:19:17,996 Speaker 1: sort of induce this hibernation. 329 00:19:18,316 --> 00:19:20,556 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you have to bring the temperature down. And 330 00:19:20,636 --> 00:19:26,236 Speaker 2: again that varies based on the species. But cold's main 331 00:19:26,836 --> 00:19:30,636 Speaker 2: method of preserving things is to slow things down. We 332 00:19:30,676 --> 00:19:33,956 Speaker 2: know this, like we are slower in the cold. Bacteria 333 00:19:33,996 --> 00:19:36,836 Speaker 2: and fungi are slower in the cold. Apples are slower 334 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:41,436 Speaker 2: in the cold. You're just adding the atmospheric effect to 335 00:19:41,476 --> 00:19:43,596 Speaker 2: it as a sort of additive, so it slowed down 336 00:19:43,716 --> 00:19:44,356 Speaker 2: even more. 337 00:19:47,796 --> 00:19:50,316 Speaker 1: Still to come on the show the technological marvel that 338 00:19:50,476 --> 00:20:03,796 Speaker 1: is a plastic bag full of lettuce. So apples are 339 00:20:03,796 --> 00:20:05,956 Speaker 1: a good one. I mean, there's a lot of specific 340 00:20:07,876 --> 00:20:10,476 Speaker 1: innovations for different foods. But another one I want to 341 00:20:10,476 --> 00:20:15,876 Speaker 1: talk about is lettuce. Tell me the lettuce story. 342 00:20:16,796 --> 00:20:20,596 Speaker 2: For a long time, lettuce had to be grown near 343 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 2: where it was consumed. And then once ice you know, 344 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:29,716 Speaker 2: ice making machines came along, well that's when California got 345 00:20:29,716 --> 00:20:33,756 Speaker 2: into the lettuce business and the Salinas Valley became the 346 00:20:33,876 --> 00:20:38,716 Speaker 2: largest ice producing uh you know area of the world, 347 00:20:38,876 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 2: second only to New York City, and the amount of 348 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:44,036 Speaker 2: ice they made there because they were icing down all 349 00:20:44,196 --> 00:20:47,516 Speaker 2: the lettuce, and that meant the lettuce itself had to 350 00:20:47,636 --> 00:20:52,396 Speaker 2: change because you know, the soft Boston bib type they 351 00:20:52,396 --> 00:20:55,556 Speaker 2: don't do so well when they're ice. You need something sturdy, 352 00:20:56,236 --> 00:21:02,196 Speaker 2: like oh, an iceberg, which gets its name supposedly from 353 00:21:02,276 --> 00:21:07,436 Speaker 2: the fact that when these crisped lettuces were jammed into 354 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:10,996 Speaker 2: railcars and topped with the load of ice and retopped, 355 00:21:11,076 --> 00:21:14,556 Speaker 2: you know, every couple hundred miles along the railway, it 356 00:21:14,596 --> 00:21:19,436 Speaker 2: would look like icebergs were coming, you know, like a 357 00:21:19,476 --> 00:21:22,196 Speaker 2: train car set of icebergs was coming towards you. 358 00:21:22,676 --> 00:21:25,676 Speaker 1: Yeah, you wrote that. Before this time, the kind of 359 00:21:25,756 --> 00:21:28,676 Speaker 1: lettuce that we call iceberg was called Los Angeles right, 360 00:21:28,796 --> 00:21:34,356 Speaker 1: Los Angeles lettuce and like kind of I mean, I 361 00:21:34,356 --> 00:21:36,956 Speaker 1: guess people like it, but like not a real lettuce 362 00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:40,436 Speaker 1: lettuce right if you want your like green vegetables, icebery 363 00:21:40,476 --> 00:21:45,396 Speaker 1: lettuce is notably not that green. And I mean, as 364 00:21:45,436 --> 00:21:47,516 Speaker 1: I read the book, it just takes off as lettuce 365 00:21:47,676 --> 00:21:50,356 Speaker 1: because it's the lettuce that you could send across the country. 366 00:21:51,276 --> 00:21:53,116 Speaker 1: In a railcar full of ice one. 367 00:21:53,716 --> 00:21:56,476 Speaker 2: And that happens again and again with the refrigeration. It 368 00:21:56,476 --> 00:21:59,036 Speaker 2: happens with apples too. The apples we have on our 369 00:21:59,076 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 2: grocery store shelves are the apples you can store in 370 00:22:02,276 --> 00:22:07,076 Speaker 2: controlled storage. Lots of very tasty heirloom varieties do not 371 00:22:07,276 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 2: do well in controlled storage. They can't be kept that long, 372 00:22:10,956 --> 00:22:13,476 Speaker 2: and so we don't see them on supermarket shelves. It's 373 00:22:13,556 --> 00:22:17,556 Speaker 2: just a it's sort of an ecological filter where things 374 00:22:17,596 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 2: that cannot be stored in this mass market industrial refrigerated 375 00:22:21,396 --> 00:22:24,996 Speaker 2: way no longer make it onto the grocery store shelves. 376 00:22:25,556 --> 00:22:29,876 Speaker 1: But people are figuring out ways to store more things 377 00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:32,596 Speaker 1: in this mass market industrialized way, which is what happens 378 00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:35,636 Speaker 1: with lettuce right, which is why we can get so 379 00:22:35,756 --> 00:22:40,076 Speaker 1: much lettuce now. So like any in particular bagged lettuce, 380 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:44,196 Speaker 1: to my surprise, turns out to be like a wild 381 00:22:44,636 --> 00:22:45,876 Speaker 1: technological breakthrough. 382 00:22:46,156 --> 00:22:48,316 Speaker 2: I know, this is a thing where you just think, oh, 383 00:22:48,316 --> 00:22:51,556 Speaker 2: it's convenient, whatever, it's plastic bag, that's nice, maybe they 384 00:22:51,756 --> 00:22:54,996 Speaker 2: washed it, big whoop. And actually it turns out that 385 00:22:54,996 --> 00:22:57,436 Speaker 2: that bag that you just kind of crumple up and 386 00:22:57,436 --> 00:23:01,476 Speaker 2: throw away is this super high tech respiratory apparatus for 387 00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:05,796 Speaker 2: the lettuce leaves, and it all came about surprisingly recently, 388 00:23:06,196 --> 00:23:08,636 Speaker 2: and what it really is is that the bag is 389 00:23:08,756 --> 00:23:14,516 Speaker 2: essentially a miniature plastic version of a big controlled atmosphere 390 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:19,596 Speaker 2: Apple warehouse. It's the same idea. The plastic is actually 391 00:23:19,636 --> 00:23:23,596 Speaker 2: not just plastic. It's several layers of what is called 392 00:23:23,676 --> 00:23:30,356 Speaker 2: differentially permeable membrane, which is basically just plastic with different 393 00:23:30,516 --> 00:23:34,236 Speaker 2: kinds of holes in it to let different gases through 394 00:23:34,356 --> 00:23:38,436 Speaker 2: at different rates that you have designed when you specified 395 00:23:38,476 --> 00:23:41,596 Speaker 2: the plastic and manufactured the plastic, and you glue all 396 00:23:41,636 --> 00:23:45,356 Speaker 2: that together minimum kind of seven layers, as many as 397 00:23:45,436 --> 00:23:51,676 Speaker 2: twelve to get exactly the atmospheric blend you want in 398 00:23:51,796 --> 00:23:54,476 Speaker 2: that bag of lettuce. So at first it was just 399 00:23:54,556 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 2: chopped lettuce, and it was the idea was just keeping 400 00:23:57,156 --> 00:23:59,996 Speaker 2: that in a controlled atmosphere. Then it was like, you know, what, 401 00:24:00,036 --> 00:24:02,876 Speaker 2: people want a salad, not just one kind of lettuce, 402 00:24:02,916 --> 00:24:04,836 Speaker 2: So we need to throw some arugula in there and 403 00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:08,356 Speaker 2: some baby spinach. And to do that you have to 404 00:24:08,476 --> 00:24:12,276 Speaker 2: calculate how fast each of those leaves are breathing, and 405 00:24:12,316 --> 00:24:14,876 Speaker 2: they breathe at a different rate, so baby spinach. Because 406 00:24:14,876 --> 00:24:18,756 Speaker 2: it's so young, it's breathing very very fast. En dive 407 00:24:18,916 --> 00:24:22,436 Speaker 2: is like kind of sturdier, more chill breathing more slowly. 408 00:24:22,996 --> 00:24:26,796 Speaker 2: You have to mix your leaves in the correct ratio 409 00:24:27,356 --> 00:24:32,036 Speaker 2: to get an even kind of breathing pattern. So the 410 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 2: spinach breathing super fast. You put enough and dive in 411 00:24:35,476 --> 00:24:38,196 Speaker 2: to kind of chill things down and take the overall 412 00:24:38,236 --> 00:24:41,996 Speaker 2: bags metabolism down. So it's this entirely. You think, oh, 413 00:24:42,036 --> 00:24:45,076 Speaker 2: they put in too much and dive. I don't like that. No, 414 00:24:45,596 --> 00:24:47,116 Speaker 2: it's all engineered to. 415 00:24:48,756 --> 00:24:52,116 Speaker 1: And when they're like different. You know, you can buy 416 00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:56,236 Speaker 1: a bag of baby spinach. Is the plastic bag for 417 00:24:56,316 --> 00:25:00,116 Speaker 1: the baby spinach like different than the plastic bag for whatever, 418 00:25:00,196 --> 00:25:01,596 Speaker 1: the pre mixed Koleslaw or whatever. 419 00:25:01,676 --> 00:25:06,956 Speaker 2: Yes, one hundred percent, because they're delivering a different atmospheric ratio. 420 00:25:07,556 --> 00:25:10,756 Speaker 2: I mean, this is the most high. It's using Cold 421 00:25:10,796 --> 00:25:15,436 Speaker 2: War era submarine technology, which is when people started spending 422 00:25:15,556 --> 00:25:18,356 Speaker 2: so long under the water that you know, people had 423 00:25:18,396 --> 00:25:21,596 Speaker 2: to figure out how to deliver controlled atmospheres. 424 00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 1: It's like a submarine. It's like a submarine for greens 425 00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:27,636 Speaker 1: basically exactly. 426 00:25:28,116 --> 00:25:31,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, they and the guy who invented it who's still alive. 427 00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:33,796 Speaker 3: Has anyone heard of this man? 428 00:25:34,076 --> 00:25:37,116 Speaker 1: No, you know J's name, We haven't even said it. 429 00:25:37,196 --> 00:25:38,076 Speaker 1: Say the name. 430 00:25:38,276 --> 00:25:43,756 Speaker 2: Jim Lug, James Lug. It's like this bold step forward 431 00:25:43,876 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 2: for salad that has been completely forgotten. And I'm guilty 432 00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:49,916 Speaker 2: of this as anyone else. Like you bring a bag 433 00:25:49,916 --> 00:25:52,916 Speaker 2: of salad home, if it doesn't fit in your crisper drawer, 434 00:25:52,996 --> 00:25:55,116 Speaker 2: you kind of open it to squish out some of 435 00:25:55,116 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 2: the air and put it in there. Now that I 436 00:25:57,476 --> 00:26:00,436 Speaker 2: know the effort that has gone into creating that little 437 00:26:00,436 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 2: atmospheric bubble, I'm like, I'm so sorry. 438 00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:09,116 Speaker 1: Sorry, Jim. What about the so that the soft play 439 00:26:09,436 --> 00:26:11,836 Speaker 1: bag is what we're talking about, They also sell salid 440 00:26:11,876 --> 00:26:15,916 Speaker 1: now in the like hard plastic clamshell. Is that some 441 00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:17,956 Speaker 1: crazy technology that I don't even know about. 442 00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:19,356 Speaker 3: No, that's been that's been. 443 00:26:20,196 --> 00:26:23,636 Speaker 2: There's actually less effective, but it's been flushed with more 444 00:26:23,676 --> 00:26:26,596 Speaker 2: of an inert gas to the best of my knowledge. 445 00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:29,356 Speaker 2: But it's but actually not as high tech. The bags 446 00:26:29,396 --> 00:26:30,276 Speaker 2: are more high tech. 447 00:26:30,636 --> 00:26:33,316 Speaker 1: Huh. And do the bags work better? Do the bags 448 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 1: preserve the greens longer than the hard shell? 449 00:26:35,956 --> 00:26:36,196 Speaker 3: Yeah? 450 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:38,196 Speaker 1: Huh, not intuitive? 451 00:26:38,516 --> 00:26:42,916 Speaker 3: I know now you know, so one of the things. 452 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:47,396 Speaker 1: That's interesting to me in the book is you seem 453 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:52,916 Speaker 1: ambivalent about refrigeration. You spent ten years on the book, 454 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:57,996 Speaker 1: and like, clearly you admire a lot of the people 455 00:26:58,036 --> 00:27:00,596 Speaker 1: who figured things out, but you seem, yeah, you seem 456 00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:06,516 Speaker 1: ambivalent about the effects of refrigeration on humanity in the world. Like, 457 00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:08,756 Speaker 1: how do you weigh how do you weigh the effects 458 00:27:08,796 --> 00:27:09,116 Speaker 1: of refuge? 459 00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:12,156 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so, first of all, I think the important 460 00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:16,356 Speaker 2: thing is to weigh it. And here's one thing I 461 00:27:16,396 --> 00:27:19,036 Speaker 2: came to realize as I worked on this book is 462 00:27:19,036 --> 00:27:22,236 Speaker 2: that refrigeration is just so taken for granted as a 463 00:27:22,316 --> 00:27:24,796 Speaker 2: central sort of you know. 464 00:27:24,756 --> 00:27:25,756 Speaker 3: This is how we eat. 465 00:27:26,036 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 2: It doesn't get evaluated for its costs or benefits. It 466 00:27:30,476 --> 00:27:33,116 Speaker 2: just is you know, it's one of those things like 467 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:35,076 Speaker 2: air where it's like is air good or bad? 468 00:27:35,236 --> 00:27:36,116 Speaker 3: You know, we need it. 469 00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:42,116 Speaker 2: So I actually thought it was important to say, well, 470 00:27:42,156 --> 00:27:46,596 Speaker 2: you know what, it's a very recent technology, extremely recent. 471 00:27:47,316 --> 00:27:50,156 Speaker 2: Wasn't commercialized till you know, just over one hundred and 472 00:27:50,156 --> 00:27:53,676 Speaker 2: fifty years ago, wasn't commonplace till a century ago. 473 00:27:54,156 --> 00:27:57,036 Speaker 3: If that, like, this is a very. 474 00:27:56,836 --> 00:28:00,916 Speaker 2: Recent transformation of our food system, why are we assuming 475 00:28:01,076 --> 00:28:04,076 Speaker 2: that it has to be that it is, you know, inevitable. 476 00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:06,356 Speaker 2: When you're starting to write a book, you go and 477 00:28:06,396 --> 00:28:08,476 Speaker 2: look at see has anyone else written about this? And 478 00:28:08,556 --> 00:28:10,636 Speaker 2: I went I went to the New York Public Library 479 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:13,916 Speaker 2: and I looked at the most recent book on refrigeration, 480 00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:17,596 Speaker 2: and it was from the nineteen fifties, and it said, well, like, 481 00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:21,916 Speaker 2: refrigeration's great, and you know, human progress continues, and no 482 00:28:21,996 --> 00:28:24,916 Speaker 2: doubt the next food preservation thing will be along shortly. 483 00:28:25,516 --> 00:28:27,876 Speaker 2: No one at the time thought refrigeration. 484 00:28:27,556 --> 00:28:31,876 Speaker 3: Was the end, uh huh, and yet it has sort 485 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:33,476 Speaker 3: of become the end. 486 00:28:33,756 --> 00:28:36,356 Speaker 1: It's interesting because I feel like mid century was that 487 00:28:36,436 --> 00:28:39,076 Speaker 1: with a number of things, right, like with air travel 488 00:28:39,116 --> 00:28:42,556 Speaker 1: comes to mind famously. Right if the fifty years from whatever, 489 00:28:42,756 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred to nineteen fifty, nineteen ten to nineteen sixty 490 00:28:46,876 --> 00:28:50,596 Speaker 1: were like this incredible thing, and then we basically got 491 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:52,116 Speaker 1: the same thing now that we had then. 492 00:28:52,516 --> 00:28:55,516 Speaker 2: Yeah, a little better, but you know, like moderate iterations, 493 00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 2: but the same thing. And the reason, h I think 494 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 2: it's important to look at. I mean, there are a 495 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:06,356 Speaker 2: few different reasons. One is the super pressing one, which 496 00:29:06,436 --> 00:29:09,876 Speaker 2: is refrigeration actually turns out to have a huge climate 497 00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:14,556 Speaker 2: change impact. The refrigerants themselves are super greenhouse gases. A 498 00:29:14,556 --> 00:29:19,116 Speaker 2: lot of the time the power to make things cold, 499 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:21,796 Speaker 2: you know, the energy required to make things cold is 500 00:29:21,836 --> 00:29:25,756 Speaker 2: a huge burden. And if the rest of the world 501 00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:30,396 Speaker 2: refrigerates like America does, which it doesn't right now. You know, 502 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:35,676 Speaker 2: the US is sort of Europe as well, but unique 503 00:29:35,676 --> 00:29:38,476 Speaker 2: in having a cold chain of the scale we have. 504 00:29:39,516 --> 00:29:42,236 Speaker 1: It's sort of a microcosm of the broader like, oh, 505 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:44,876 Speaker 1: there is a developing world. Reasonably everybody wants to have 506 00:29:44,916 --> 00:29:47,116 Speaker 1: the same standard of living we do. But if that happens, 507 00:29:47,676 --> 00:29:50,236 Speaker 1: we're screwed in terms of climate change, among. 508 00:29:49,996 --> 00:29:51,916 Speaker 3: Other things, completely screwed in. 509 00:29:51,876 --> 00:29:54,916 Speaker 1: The absence of other innovations, at least exactly. 510 00:29:55,756 --> 00:29:59,956 Speaker 2: And whereas people sort of seem to recognize that with like, oh, hey, 511 00:29:59,996 --> 00:30:03,156 Speaker 2: if everyone has a car in Africa, we're screwed, they 512 00:30:03,276 --> 00:30:06,796 Speaker 2: aren't talking about it when it comes to well, if 513 00:30:06,876 --> 00:30:09,396 Speaker 2: the entire food system is refrigerating. 514 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:10,636 Speaker 1: World, if the cold chain that we have in the 515 00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:13,116 Speaker 1: developed world becomes global. 516 00:30:12,836 --> 00:30:14,076 Speaker 3: Yeah exactly. 517 00:30:14,676 --> 00:30:18,396 Speaker 1: Okay, Well let's do this way. You wrote a book, 518 00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:22,916 Speaker 1: you spent ten years. What has happened has happened? On balance, 519 00:30:22,996 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: you think we're better off or worse off for refrigeration. 520 00:30:28,636 --> 00:30:32,396 Speaker 2: I think better off as long as we figure out 521 00:30:32,596 --> 00:30:36,836 Speaker 2: what to do about the climate change aspect of it. 522 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:41,116 Speaker 1: So let's let's talk about what comes next. Yeah, what 523 00:30:41,236 --> 00:30:43,476 Speaker 1: people are trying to figure out. It is an excellent 524 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:48,156 Speaker 1: point that seventy years ago, everybody's like, surely the next 525 00:30:48,356 --> 00:30:54,236 Speaker 1: cold making, surely the next refrigeration breakthrough is imminent, and 526 00:30:54,436 --> 00:30:57,636 Speaker 1: nothing right, So what are people working on? What is 527 00:30:57,676 --> 00:30:59,236 Speaker 1: the frontier of refrigeration. 528 00:31:00,156 --> 00:31:03,956 Speaker 2: It's very underfunded. And that's also before you think about 529 00:31:04,076 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 2: you know, there's cooling things more sustainably, or there's preserving food. Differently, 530 00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:15,316 Speaker 2: when refrigeration was first, you know, introduced, people were thinking 531 00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:19,356 Speaker 2: that the big preservation breakthrough that people needed to feed 532 00:31:19,436 --> 00:31:23,876 Speaker 2: cities was not going to be cold cold was you know, 533 00:31:24,076 --> 00:31:27,516 Speaker 2: this fleeting natural ephemeral ice thing. There was no way 534 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:30,316 Speaker 2: it would work at scale, so they were looking into 535 00:31:31,716 --> 00:31:37,796 Speaker 2: all sorts of you know, fumigation, coatings, shredding things and 536 00:31:37,876 --> 00:31:41,156 Speaker 2: drying them. You get the invention of the bullion cube 537 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:43,516 Speaker 2: as a way to say, oh, how do we kind 538 00:31:43,516 --> 00:31:46,716 Speaker 2: of extract the nutritional value of meat and at least 539 00:31:46,716 --> 00:31:51,356 Speaker 2: preserve that. So it's at the time people were aware 540 00:31:51,436 --> 00:31:54,916 Speaker 2: that you know, preservation could take many forms, and I 541 00:31:54,916 --> 00:31:56,476 Speaker 2: think that's one of the things I look at in 542 00:31:56,516 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 2: the book is like, what if the future of you know, 543 00:32:00,076 --> 00:32:02,556 Speaker 2: some things have to be cold. Ice cream has to 544 00:32:02,556 --> 00:32:05,396 Speaker 2: be cold, beer has to be cold in my book, 545 00:32:07,156 --> 00:32:10,596 Speaker 2: but you know, an apple doesn't actually have to be cold, 546 00:32:10,636 --> 00:32:12,196 Speaker 2: it just has to be preserved. 547 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:15,716 Speaker 1: Most of refrigeration is not keeping things cold so that 548 00:32:15,756 --> 00:32:17,876 Speaker 1: we can eat them cold. It's so that they don't 549 00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:19,316 Speaker 1: spoil exactly. 550 00:32:19,516 --> 00:32:23,716 Speaker 2: So if there are other ways for them not to spoil, well, 551 00:32:23,756 --> 00:32:28,476 Speaker 2: then you could have a vastly slimmed down cold chain. 552 00:32:28,876 --> 00:32:32,516 Speaker 2: Or listen, we've built our system in the US, it 553 00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:34,796 Speaker 2: is what it is. You could say, well, hey, in 554 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:38,596 Speaker 2: countries that haven't built their cold chain yet, maybe they 555 00:32:38,636 --> 00:32:41,836 Speaker 2: could build this leaner, meaner model in the same way 556 00:32:41,956 --> 00:32:44,596 Speaker 2: that you know, they didn't get checkbooks, they went straight 557 00:32:44,636 --> 00:32:47,836 Speaker 2: to digital banking on their phones, and they didn't get landlines, 558 00:32:47,836 --> 00:32:50,996 Speaker 2: they went straight to cell phones, et cetera. So could 559 00:32:51,036 --> 00:32:54,956 Speaker 2: we find better preservation solutions if what we're trying to 560 00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:58,436 Speaker 2: do is keep food fresh that don't require cold chain 561 00:32:58,556 --> 00:32:59,796 Speaker 2: where possible. 562 00:32:59,876 --> 00:33:02,876 Speaker 1: What are people working on in terms of preserving food 563 00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:05,236 Speaker 1: without cold so. 564 00:33:06,476 --> 00:33:09,716 Speaker 2: Some people are working on high pressure process. So if 565 00:33:09,756 --> 00:33:13,156 Speaker 2: you can just apply enough pressure, you can sort of 566 00:33:13,196 --> 00:33:18,316 Speaker 2: squeeze out the bacteria and fungi. This works with meat 567 00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:23,116 Speaker 2: apparently quite well. It's expensive right now. It's very much 568 00:33:23,196 --> 00:33:26,196 Speaker 2: at the experimental stage. This is not something that is 569 00:33:26,316 --> 00:33:29,516 Speaker 2: done like commercially right now. Where is the one that 570 00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:32,036 Speaker 2: I went to see is done commercially right now, which 571 00:33:32,076 --> 00:33:34,396 Speaker 2: is a coating. And so it's funny, it's like what 572 00:33:34,476 --> 00:33:39,036 Speaker 2: goes around comes around. All of these you know, pressure, coating, fumigation, like, 573 00:33:39,076 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 2: all of these things were things that were thought of 574 00:33:43,356 --> 00:33:47,476 Speaker 2: in the seventeen fifties and now are being tried again, 575 00:33:47,716 --> 00:33:50,196 Speaker 2: and coatings is one of them. 576 00:33:50,476 --> 00:33:51,996 Speaker 3: Really, the trick. 577 00:33:51,796 --> 00:33:56,276 Speaker 2: With this one coating company appeal is they're taking the 578 00:33:56,316 --> 00:34:00,036 Speaker 2: same logic of the apple warehouse and the salad bag. 579 00:34:00,236 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 2: They're just putting it on to the produce item as 580 00:34:04,036 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 2: a nanoscale coating that is made out of food particles. 581 00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:14,156 Speaker 2: It is exactly the semi permeable membrane. But your salad 582 00:34:14,196 --> 00:34:18,356 Speaker 2: bag is it's just not plastic. It's just sprayed directly 583 00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:22,076 Speaker 2: onto your cucumber and it's controlling the cucumbers breathing that way. 584 00:34:22,676 --> 00:34:24,956 Speaker 1: I mean it seems cool, but as you describe it, 585 00:34:24,956 --> 00:34:26,836 Speaker 1: it sounds like a thing one does not want to eat. 586 00:34:27,436 --> 00:34:31,876 Speaker 2: That's where you're wrong. Licked, I licked the produce with 587 00:34:31,956 --> 00:34:34,236 Speaker 2: this on. I'm here to tell the tale. 588 00:34:34,516 --> 00:34:37,116 Speaker 1: So, like, what is actually going on? What are they doing? 589 00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:41,076 Speaker 2: It's a different formulation for each fruit and vegetable because 590 00:34:41,076 --> 00:34:43,876 Speaker 2: you're trying to create a different modified atmosphere. 591 00:34:44,276 --> 00:34:44,676 Speaker 3: And you. 592 00:34:46,636 --> 00:34:49,316 Speaker 2: Create this formulation, there's a lot of trial and era 593 00:34:49,676 --> 00:34:53,716 Speaker 2: you spray it on. It's nanoscale. Part of how it 594 00:34:53,796 --> 00:34:56,676 Speaker 2: works is people think of it as like wax or 595 00:34:56,716 --> 00:34:59,876 Speaker 2: something like it's a thick layer that's blocking things. No, 596 00:35:00,436 --> 00:35:03,156 Speaker 2: it came out of research into solar panels that was 597 00:35:03,636 --> 00:35:06,356 Speaker 2: all about how if they dry at different rates, they 598 00:35:06,436 --> 00:35:10,316 Speaker 2: like assemble slightly different at the nanoscale, have different You know, 599 00:35:11,116 --> 00:35:13,876 Speaker 2: a solar panel can be like twice as efficient if 600 00:35:13,916 --> 00:35:17,636 Speaker 2: you'll let it dry two times more slowly. So this 601 00:35:17,756 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 2: is a similar It's out of this same thin film 602 00:35:20,516 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 2: polymer physics, and you just have to spread it on 603 00:35:24,156 --> 00:35:27,236 Speaker 2: and dry it a certain way. It assembles with these properties. 604 00:35:27,716 --> 00:35:32,236 Speaker 2: It's nanoscale, so like undetectable made out of food waste 605 00:35:32,436 --> 00:35:36,916 Speaker 2: and what it's doing. Is this exact same thing that 606 00:35:36,996 --> 00:35:40,676 Speaker 2: the salad bag is doing, which is slowing down how 607 00:35:40,716 --> 00:35:44,156 Speaker 2: fast that piece of produce breaths so that it takes 608 00:35:44,196 --> 00:35:47,796 Speaker 2: its allotted number of breaths over a longer time. And 609 00:35:47,836 --> 00:35:51,116 Speaker 2: it's kind of astonishing. I like, I, you know, I 610 00:35:51,356 --> 00:35:54,236 Speaker 2: was went in as a skeptical journalist and then I 611 00:35:54,316 --> 00:35:57,756 Speaker 2: saw the bell peppers that had been sitting out for 612 00:35:57,836 --> 00:36:01,156 Speaker 2: eight weeks at room temperature, and I feel, we all 613 00:36:01,196 --> 00:36:04,276 Speaker 2: know that after eight weeks at room temperature, a bell 614 00:36:04,316 --> 00:36:07,196 Speaker 2: pepper is not in great shape. It's you know, it's 615 00:36:07,196 --> 00:36:10,756 Speaker 2: no longer something you want to eat. These bell peppers 616 00:36:12,076 --> 00:36:16,996 Speaker 2: with the you know, the nanoscale coating, they weren't crude 617 00:36:17,036 --> 00:36:21,636 Speaker 2: to tabared ready, but they were definitely stir fry, were 618 00:36:21,716 --> 00:36:24,756 Speaker 2: they They were. They were a little sad looking, but 619 00:36:24,916 --> 00:36:28,516 Speaker 2: they hadn't gone And eight weeks, yeah. 620 00:36:28,316 --> 00:36:30,996 Speaker 1: Two months a long time for a bell pepper to 621 00:36:31,036 --> 00:36:31,716 Speaker 1: sit on the counter. 622 00:36:31,916 --> 00:36:32,436 Speaker 3: No killing. 623 00:36:33,196 --> 00:36:37,836 Speaker 1: So are they are they in out in the world now? Like, 624 00:36:37,876 --> 00:36:40,316 Speaker 1: are there fruits that you can buy that have this 625 00:36:40,396 --> 00:36:41,236 Speaker 1: coating on them? 626 00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:41,836 Speaker 3: There are? 627 00:36:41,956 --> 00:36:45,356 Speaker 2: In fact, Walmart just announced that it's ditching plastic on 628 00:36:45,396 --> 00:36:49,196 Speaker 2: its English cucumbers in favor of appeal. 629 00:36:49,316 --> 00:36:52,196 Speaker 1: This coating Okay, yeah, the English cucumber they sell that, 630 00:36:52,196 --> 00:36:54,676 Speaker 1: that's the like the hothouse, the long the long one 631 00:36:54,676 --> 00:36:58,516 Speaker 1: and far more tasty cucumber that it is like shrink wrapped, right, 632 00:36:58,556 --> 00:37:01,476 Speaker 1: it has like, yeah, it's basically shrink wrapped when you 633 00:37:01,516 --> 00:37:03,996 Speaker 1: buy it. And so Walmart's going to start selling it 634 00:37:04,036 --> 00:37:07,596 Speaker 1: with this lipid coating instead of plastic exactly. 635 00:37:07,636 --> 00:37:12,396 Speaker 3: And it works better. It like keeps the product fresher. 636 00:37:13,116 --> 00:37:15,036 Speaker 2: And this is one of the fascinating things about it 637 00:37:15,036 --> 00:37:19,036 Speaker 2: because over time, refrigeration has totally changed our understanding of 638 00:37:19,036 --> 00:37:21,356 Speaker 2: what freshness means. It used to mean something that had 639 00:37:21,356 --> 00:37:25,836 Speaker 2: been harvested or slowtered really recently and really nearby. It 640 00:37:25,876 --> 00:37:29,396 Speaker 2: was something to do with time and distance. Then refrigeration 641 00:37:29,636 --> 00:37:31,876 Speaker 2: changed all of that because suddenly it could have been 642 00:37:31,876 --> 00:37:34,956 Speaker 2: slowtered six months ago and looked like it was slowdered yesterday. 643 00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:38,756 Speaker 2: So the definition of fresh changed, and what appeal does 644 00:37:38,836 --> 00:37:41,276 Speaker 2: is sort of say it could change again. It could 645 00:37:41,316 --> 00:37:46,076 Speaker 2: be fresh doesn't have to mean refrigerated. It could just 646 00:37:46,196 --> 00:37:49,556 Speaker 2: mean with more of the nutrients and the flavor that 647 00:37:49,596 --> 00:37:52,356 Speaker 2: it had when it was on the plant. It could 648 00:37:52,396 --> 00:37:56,356 Speaker 2: be a chemical definition, not a you know, not something 649 00:37:56,396 --> 00:37:58,716 Speaker 2: that we at the moment. The definition of fresh is 650 00:37:58,836 --> 00:38:00,636 Speaker 2: it needs to go in the fridge, right, I mean 651 00:38:00,636 --> 00:38:02,676 Speaker 2: that's or it comes from the fridge. That's how people 652 00:38:02,676 --> 00:38:06,116 Speaker 2: think of freshness. It could be. It could be to 653 00:38:06,196 --> 00:38:10,636 Speaker 2: do with the actual youth relative of the fruit and 654 00:38:10,756 --> 00:38:13,476 Speaker 2: vegetable itself, how few breaths it's taken. 655 00:38:17,116 --> 00:38:19,716 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lighting round. 656 00:38:28,796 --> 00:38:30,156 Speaker 1: Let's finish with the lightning round. 657 00:38:30,476 --> 00:38:30,756 Speaker 3: Okay. 658 00:38:34,356 --> 00:38:40,036 Speaker 1: In the book, you cite a number of publications with 659 00:38:40,116 --> 00:38:45,316 Speaker 1: amazing names, including, but not limited to, Food Engineering Magazine, 660 00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:54,276 Speaker 1: Container Management Magazine, Palette Enterprise Magazine, and Food Technology Magazine. 661 00:38:54,516 --> 00:38:58,476 Speaker 1: If I am going to read one trade publication, any 662 00:38:58,956 --> 00:39:01,036 Speaker 1: trade publication, which one should it be? 663 00:39:01,476 --> 00:39:03,236 Speaker 2: Does it have to be one that's still in print? 664 00:39:03,276 --> 00:39:06,876 Speaker 2: Because the old school ice in refrigeration, which was imprint 665 00:39:06,956 --> 00:39:11,636 Speaker 2: from like the eighteen eighties to the nineteen, I want 666 00:39:11,676 --> 00:39:15,396 Speaker 2: to say, twenties thirties, is I could spend all day 667 00:39:15,436 --> 00:39:17,076 Speaker 2: reading that. It's incredible. 668 00:39:17,716 --> 00:39:20,316 Speaker 1: Tell me more, what with the John McPhee of ice 669 00:39:20,396 --> 00:39:21,356 Speaker 1: in refrigeration. 670 00:39:22,036 --> 00:39:25,356 Speaker 2: None of the articles assigned, all of them are delightful. 671 00:39:26,076 --> 00:39:29,996 Speaker 2: They are entire articles about how cold affected Napoleon's Army, 672 00:39:30,116 --> 00:39:33,956 Speaker 2: for example. It's just a much more wide ranging look 673 00:39:33,996 --> 00:39:36,676 Speaker 2: at you know, cold is this sort of phenomenon. 674 00:39:36,916 --> 00:39:37,596 Speaker 3: Yeah, I love. 675 00:39:37,636 --> 00:39:40,876 Speaker 1: It's the magazine for people who are into cold exactly. 676 00:39:41,076 --> 00:39:42,716 Speaker 3: So I'd say start there. 677 00:39:43,076 --> 00:39:46,276 Speaker 1: What's your favorite thing that you can eat because of refrigeration? 678 00:39:47,116 --> 00:39:52,796 Speaker 2: Oh well, I mean this is a hard call between. 679 00:39:55,796 --> 00:40:00,396 Speaker 2: I mean, if it's eat ice cream obviously, although you know, 680 00:40:02,236 --> 00:40:06,476 Speaker 2: if it's drink, then think of all the world of 681 00:40:06,516 --> 00:40:09,596 Speaker 2: cocktails that previously didn't have ice in them and are 682 00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:11,556 Speaker 2: now so so good. 683 00:40:11,796 --> 00:40:14,196 Speaker 1: I mean, there's even things that like aren't cold, but 684 00:40:14,356 --> 00:40:17,116 Speaker 1: like mangoes. Like I live in New York and like, 685 00:40:17,236 --> 00:40:20,036 Speaker 1: theoretically in the world I could eat a mango without refrigeration. 686 00:40:20,116 --> 00:40:22,356 Speaker 1: But the idea that a mango could be like a 687 00:40:22,436 --> 00:40:27,476 Speaker 1: quasi stable fruit in my house is amazing and great. 688 00:40:27,916 --> 00:40:29,916 Speaker 1: I think, like, yes, I know they are costs, but 689 00:40:30,116 --> 00:40:31,796 Speaker 1: like I love mangoes. 690 00:40:32,356 --> 00:40:33,556 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think. 691 00:40:33,716 --> 00:40:36,076 Speaker 2: One of the sad things that's happened to me as 692 00:40:36,116 --> 00:40:39,196 Speaker 2: I've researched this book and made my podcast is I've 693 00:40:39,236 --> 00:40:43,756 Speaker 2: realized how much worse things taste when they are refrigerated. 694 00:40:43,916 --> 00:40:46,916 Speaker 1: I mean, but it's not worse than no mango. I'm 695 00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:49,676 Speaker 1: sure the best mango in the world is amazing, but 696 00:40:49,716 --> 00:40:51,276 Speaker 1: I love the mangoes that I get. 697 00:40:51,676 --> 00:40:53,756 Speaker 3: It depends if you've had the really good mangoes. 698 00:40:54,196 --> 00:40:56,396 Speaker 1: Once you've got, then I'm glad that I haven't. 699 00:40:56,716 --> 00:40:57,516 Speaker 3: Yeah, there you go. 700 00:40:58,436 --> 00:41:01,596 Speaker 1: What's the most surprising detail you learned working on the book? 701 00:41:03,196 --> 00:41:03,476 Speaker 3: Oh? 702 00:41:03,556 --> 00:41:08,596 Speaker 2: Man, I mean, just because it's the most recent thing 703 00:41:08,636 --> 00:41:11,796 Speaker 2: we were talking. Came about ice cream. The non premium 704 00:41:11,836 --> 00:41:14,316 Speaker 2: brands are fifty percent air, and you can't truck them 705 00:41:14,316 --> 00:41:17,116 Speaker 2: across the country because they'll explode as you go over 706 00:41:17,156 --> 00:41:23,436 Speaker 2: the rockies. Really, yeah, so the companies have to come 707 00:41:23,516 --> 00:41:26,996 Speaker 2: up with different formulations for you know, the higher altitude 708 00:41:26,996 --> 00:41:32,116 Speaker 2: parts of the country, and you can't bring you know, 709 00:41:32,196 --> 00:41:34,476 Speaker 2: you can't truck your ice cream from your factory in 710 00:41:34,516 --> 00:41:36,716 Speaker 2: Georgia to sell and Denver is not going to work. 711 00:41:36,956 --> 00:41:40,316 Speaker 1: So basically, the as you go up in altitude, the 712 00:41:40,356 --> 00:41:44,956 Speaker 1: atmospheric pressure declines and the air inside the container expands 713 00:41:44,956 --> 00:41:46,156 Speaker 1: and blows the lid off. 714 00:41:46,396 --> 00:41:46,676 Speaker 3: Yep. 715 00:41:46,956 --> 00:41:48,716 Speaker 1: And so when you say non premium, it's like the 716 00:41:48,836 --> 00:41:52,796 Speaker 1: old school, like pre Hogendaws, pre Ben and Jerry's where 717 00:41:52,796 --> 00:41:54,956 Speaker 1: you get the big half gallon, not the little pint, 718 00:41:55,316 --> 00:41:58,196 Speaker 1: Yes exactly. So like hogandaws and Ben and Jerry's are 719 00:41:58,636 --> 00:42:01,116 Speaker 1: dense enough that you can take those over the rockies. 720 00:42:01,476 --> 00:42:05,036 Speaker 2: Yeap, they are less air by you know, volume, and 721 00:42:05,116 --> 00:42:08,596 Speaker 2: thus you know, yes, they still expand a little, but 722 00:42:08,636 --> 00:42:11,356 Speaker 2: not enough to blow their lids off, so. 723 00:42:11,356 --> 00:42:15,116 Speaker 1: They're not as much more expensive than the cheaper kind 724 00:42:15,276 --> 00:42:17,236 Speaker 1: once you account for the fact that the cheaper kind 725 00:42:17,276 --> 00:42:17,876 Speaker 1: has more air. 726 00:42:18,196 --> 00:42:22,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, but some people like the air, you know, 727 00:42:22,116 --> 00:42:23,316 Speaker 2: it gives a different texture. 728 00:42:24,196 --> 00:42:24,516 Speaker 3: Fair. 729 00:42:25,636 --> 00:42:28,076 Speaker 1: What's one thing that people refrigerate that they should not 730 00:42:28,156 --> 00:42:29,956 Speaker 1: refrigerate so much? 731 00:42:30,156 --> 00:42:34,396 Speaker 2: I mean, for example, never put stone fruit in your refrigerator. 732 00:42:34,556 --> 00:42:39,676 Speaker 2: It is the stone fruit killing zone. It literally disables 733 00:42:39,796 --> 00:42:43,756 Speaker 2: the genetic machinery that makes that the fruit uses to 734 00:42:43,796 --> 00:42:44,436 Speaker 2: make flavor. 735 00:42:44,516 --> 00:42:45,676 Speaker 3: So just don't do it. 736 00:42:45,756 --> 00:42:49,156 Speaker 2: Eat the peach or make the peach into a pie. 737 00:42:49,516 --> 00:42:52,956 Speaker 2: Do not put the peach in the fridge. There's a 738 00:42:53,036 --> 00:42:56,756 Speaker 2: ton onions and potatoes. Actually, I mean potatoes actually become 739 00:42:56,836 --> 00:42:57,796 Speaker 2: toxic in the fridge. 740 00:42:57,916 --> 00:43:00,636 Speaker 3: Never do that. A lot of people have. 741 00:43:00,636 --> 00:43:03,436 Speaker 2: This idea that the fridge is just this miraculous box 742 00:43:03,476 --> 00:43:06,556 Speaker 2: that keeps everything safe, and that is not the case. 743 00:43:06,636 --> 00:43:09,316 Speaker 2: It's not the ideal environment for a lot of things things. 744 00:43:10,076 --> 00:43:13,076 Speaker 1: What's something that people don't refrigerate that they should h. 745 00:43:14,876 --> 00:43:19,676 Speaker 3: Nuts? Us, Yeah, I see as news I can use 746 00:43:20,396 --> 00:43:21,356 Speaker 3: if you have. 747 00:43:21,396 --> 00:43:24,116 Speaker 2: If you don't go through nuts that you're going to 748 00:43:24,196 --> 00:43:28,036 Speaker 2: go through on a relatively quick basis, Like if you 749 00:43:28,156 --> 00:43:30,956 Speaker 2: just grab a handful of almonds every day and you 750 00:43:30,996 --> 00:43:33,676 Speaker 2: go through the bag pretty quickly. Fine, doesn't need to 751 00:43:33,676 --> 00:43:35,756 Speaker 2: be in the fridge. But if you have, say some 752 00:43:35,836 --> 00:43:38,636 Speaker 2: pine nuts or some Macadamian nuts that you only use 753 00:43:38,716 --> 00:43:42,556 Speaker 2: in certain recipes, they will go rancid out of the 754 00:43:42,556 --> 00:43:45,036 Speaker 2: fridge and they will last longer. I actually keep my 755 00:43:45,076 --> 00:43:46,356 Speaker 2: Macadamius in the freezer. 756 00:43:50,396 --> 00:43:52,996 Speaker 1: Nikki Twilly is the author of the book Frostbite and 757 00:43:53,036 --> 00:43:56,636 Speaker 1: the host of the podcast Gastropod. Thanks for listening to 758 00:43:56,676 --> 00:43:59,436 Speaker 1: the show. You can email us at problem at pushkin 759 00:43:59,516 --> 00:44:01,956 Speaker 1: dot fm. We're going to take a couple weeks off 760 00:44:01,996 --> 00:44:04,836 Speaker 1: for a summer break, but we'll be back soon. Today's 761 00:44:04,836 --> 00:44:08,036 Speaker 1: show was edited by Lydia Jane Kott. It was produced 762 00:44:08,036 --> 00:44:11,716 Speaker 1: by Gabriel Hunter Chang and engineered by Sarah Bruguer. I'm 763 00:44:11,796 --> 00:44:12,556 Speaker 1: Jacob Goldstein.