1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. The American people spoke 2 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: out on Tuesday, November fifth, when they voted overwhelmingly for 3 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: President elect Donald J. Trump, and the number one issue 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: in voter's minds was the economy. Many said they were 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: tired of high prices at the grocery store, the gas station, 6 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: and housing costs. The record inflation of experience in the 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: last few years has taken its toll on the American family. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: Now that President Trump will be returning to the White House, 9 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: how can we expect the economy to change? Here to 10 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: discuss the state of our economy, I'm really pleased to 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: welcome back my guest, Thomas Honig. He is the former 12 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: vice Chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation, former president 13 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: and CEO of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City. 14 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: He was with the Federal Reserve for thirty eight years. 15 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: He is currently a Distinguished Senior Fellow at the Mercada 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: Center at George Mason University. Tom, welcome back and thank 17 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: you for joining me again on News World. 18 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. I look forward to 19 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: the conversation. Thank you very much. 20 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: You know so much about this. I'm really excited in 21 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: your perspective, how has the economy impacted the twenty twenty 22 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: four election and how does that compare to its influence 23 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: in previous election years. 24 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 3: Well, I certainly think the economy has a lot to 25 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: do with this election, as it has in past elections 26 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 3: as well. I think in this election it's really a 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 3: reflection of several years where the middle class of the 28 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 3: United States has fallen further behind in their ability to 29 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 3: accumulate wealth. We saw it following the Great Financial Crisis, 30 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 3: when asset values through very stimulative policy monetary wise, asset 31 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,799 Speaker 3: values increased like five hundred percent between then and now, 32 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 3: whereas wages have increased literally maybe sixty percent. And in 33 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 3: the last three years, the real wages have fallen behind 34 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 3: even more as prices have increased. General prices have increased 35 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: twenty percent, and Americans middle class income has barely kept 36 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: pace and actually has fallen behind in terms of its 37 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 3: wage increases versus theflation. People resent that, they react to 38 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 3: that as you would expect, and I think it's really 39 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 3: an accumulation of years of falling behind that you saw 40 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 3: reflected in this vote. 41 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 2: Number one. 42 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: Number two, economics is always important to election outcomes. We 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: saw it with past presidents, whether it was hw Bush 44 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 3: and the slowdown that happened bes he was trying to 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: run for president, as you saw it in the Republicans 46 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 3: in an earlier period, of the Democrats an earlier period. 47 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,559 Speaker 3: So economy drives importantly the outcome of elections. 48 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: Yes, why are we not able to change our policies 49 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: to enable workers to be winning as much as the 50 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 1: very wealthy. 51 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 3: I think part of it is there is this desire 52 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 3: on the part of government to solve all problems. And 53 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: you see that reflected really in the fiscal policies and 54 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: the monetary policies that we have been falling for the 55 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 3: last three decades or more. Look at the size of 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 3: our government that has grown and the amount of spending 57 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: that has gone on. Look at the size of our 58 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: debt that has to be funded and take from the 59 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: private sector in one way or another. 60 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: And look at. 61 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: Monetary policy well intentioned. I don't question the intentions, but 62 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 3: think about it. Quantitative easy that increase the Fed's balance 63 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 3: sheet from less than a trillion dollars the nine trillion 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 3: dollars of that period, that expansion has to go somewhere, 65 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 3: and it goes into the financial sector first, and they 66 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 3: use it to do buyouts or to do different types 67 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: of financial transactions. That increases acid values, increases price of 68 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 3: homes as people borrow and. 69 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 2: As money is available. 70 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: As they push interest rates down, the acid values go 71 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 3: way up. People who are earning to wage don't get 72 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: those same increases. They don't get part of that. They've 73 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 3: been in a sense marginalized, partly because we have very 74 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 3: low import costs that came in during the nineties and 75 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: two thousands that kept prices down but also made it 76 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: more difficult for labor to increase serve wage level. So 77 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 3: you have this major move towards financing everything monetizing it 78 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 3: through the Federal Reserve's actions, and that hasn't fallen through 79 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 3: to productivity gains, which were very modest in the twenty 80 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 3: ten period to twenty twenty till twenty eighteen at least, 81 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 3: and has been more modest again prior to the COVID 82 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:01,760 Speaker 3: and knowing now picking up. So there's reasons for it 83 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 3: that relate to what I'd say well intentioned bad policy 84 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 3: relative to the federal government's interested in trying to help everyone, 85 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 3: increasing our debt and the FED policies of printing money 86 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 3: to accommodate. The ability to do that, which is raised inflation, 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,239 Speaker 3: both asset inflation and price infation, has called the middle 88 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 3: class to fall behind. 89 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: So part of the purpose here was to have a 90 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: balance system. But it seems to me that the FED 91 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 1: has consistently been more afraid of unemployment than of inflation, 92 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: and it's inherently inflationary. 93 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 3: I think that's right in one sense, well intentioned, because 94 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 3: in twenty ten when they started, even though the economy 95 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 3: was in recovery, I had started recovering in the third 96 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 3: quarter of nine, the unemployment level in twenty ten was 97 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 3: still well above nine percent, and the thought was, well, 98 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,239 Speaker 3: we'll put more stimulus in there. There was an effort 99 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: to try and do fiscal that only got so far, 100 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 3: but the FED was able to continue to increase its 101 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 3: balance sheet, to print more money to buy more government 102 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,280 Speaker 3: and government guarantee securities that caused asset price to increase, 103 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: and even labor in that sense thought well, low interest 104 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 3: rates are better than higher interest rates. 105 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: And therefore we'll accept that. 106 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 3: But the fact is pushing those interest rates down, pushing 107 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: that money out, caused inflation current and assets first, and 108 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 3: then when we did it again, in twenty twenty through 109 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one. 110 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:27,799 Speaker 2: That even made both. 111 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: The fiscal and monetary policy stimulus far greater than what 112 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 3: we could produce, and therefore inflation became almost intenable as 113 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 3: we hit twenty twenty two. So the middle class pays 114 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 3: in big ways for that. Asset holders win because asset 115 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: inflation increases you're holding of wealth. 116 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: So what you have as a federal reserve which has 117 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: been more willing to protect the big banks and to 118 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: protect the major investors at the cost of individuals who 119 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: find themselves increasingly caught in an income and price squeeze. 120 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 3: Yes, first of all rationalized by two parts. One is 121 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 3: this will help unemployment. Number two, we have to have 122 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 3: financial stability at all costs. And so rather than say 123 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 3: we're going to have a recession and we're going to 124 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: have banks fail, and I understand that we're going to 125 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 3: bail them out, we're going to put more money in 126 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 3: trying to preclude a recession, preclude bank problems. 127 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: And it's perhaps a bad analogy, but it's like a force. 128 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: If you don't clean the brush out as it accumulates, 129 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: then when you finally do have a fire, it's a 130 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: major fire. And then you end up trying to do 131 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 3: even more than you did before, and we increase our 132 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: debt again, and we increase inflation again. And that's the 133 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 3: risk I think we've run going forward from here if 134 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 3: we run into any difficulties again. 135 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 1: People talk about the scale of the deficit overhang and 136 00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: the national debt overhang now, which I think, if I 137 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: saw recently, the interest on the national debt's now bigger 138 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: than the cost of national security. 139 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, the interest on the debt is bigger than 140 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: our defense spending. 141 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: So from your perspective, at what point does that become 142 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: an unsustainable burdener? 143 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 3: Well, I think there's two ways that people try and 144 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 3: look at that. One is doesn't mean we're going to 145 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: have a crisis. Well maybe, but maybe not. But one 146 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 3: thing is for sure that when you do that and 147 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 3: you have to bring more money into the government, that is, 148 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: it has to come from the private sector. Either interest 149 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 3: rates go up then or you require the FED to 150 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: print more money to buy that debt, that government debt 151 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 3: and nets spending. But what that does is it actually 152 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,479 Speaker 3: causes more asset inflation, more inflation, and that reduces productivity 153 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:51,479 Speaker 3: in the economy over time, and in fact, the Congressional 154 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 3: Budget Office is acknowledging that if we continue on the 155 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 3: path we are right now, that the debt will be 156 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 3: more than fifty threellion dollars at the end of the decade. 157 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 3: Here's the kicker, mister speaker. The productivity of the economy, 158 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 3: which is averaging right now. It's higher but averaging two 159 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 3: point two percent, will average around one point eight percent 160 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: at the end of a decade or over the course 161 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 3: of the decade. What that means is in terms of 162 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: real GDP output, real wealth creation, that will reduce what 163 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: could have been by over a trillion dollars a trillion 164 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 3: dollars less real growth in the economy over that period 165 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:34,080 Speaker 3: at least, and those are fairly favorable projections and relative 166 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: to growth, so it probably will even be worse than that. 167 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,920 Speaker 3: So it's not sustainable now in one sense, we cannot 168 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: continue this and move our productivity up and definitely into 169 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 3: the future, it's going to take a hit, and that 170 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 3: means the middle class is going to be less well 171 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 3: off at the end of a decade if we continue 172 00:09:54,160 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 3: down this road. 173 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,319 Speaker 1: With the rise of artificial intelligence, with the extraordinary collapsing 174 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: costs at SpaceX, which now launch of satellites from about 175 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: ten percent of how they were launched before it came along. 176 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: Shouldn't we be almost on the edge of a golden 177 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: age of productivity increases based on scientific and technological breakthroughs. 178 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 3: Yes, we should be. And what does it take to 179 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 3: do that? It takes capital to do that. It takes 180 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,560 Speaker 3: funding for new ventures, new expansions in technology and so forth, 181 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 3: and that requires private capital. So if the government is 182 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 3: pulling more capital out of the economy or the Fed 183 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 3: has to print more money to do that, that means 184 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: that your ability to say harvest that productivity will be undermined. 185 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 3: And that's where I think we need to be careful 186 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 3: going forward. I don't mean to say we have to 187 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: have a recession to do that, but we do have 188 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 3: to slow the growth in our debt from the public 189 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: sector because you have to fund that debt from some source. 190 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 3: If you fund it from the private sector, who the 191 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 3: savers are, that takes it away from private investors. If 192 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: you fund that from the federal reserve and you have 193 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 3: them print the money, that causes inflation and still reduces 194 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,080 Speaker 3: our productivity over time. 195 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: So we have choices to make. 196 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 3: Here, and it is to rebalance our spending and printing 197 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: the money in terms of what our economy can produce 198 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 3: without causing inflation and without shortening the private sector who 199 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 3: needs to be funded if we're going to harvest the 200 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 3: technology and the productivity gains that are ours to be 201 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 3: made on a global scale. 202 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: For years, I've read about the crowding out effect of 203 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,319 Speaker 1: government debt. Since me. There's a lot of capital a 204 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: wash in this country right now. 205 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: There's a lot of money at washing this country right now. 206 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 3: That's what's causing the inflation. There's an enormous amount of 207 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: liquidity and it's being used to buy stocks, it's being 208 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 3: used by housing. But what it does it creates excess 209 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 3: demand because it's new printed money, not due to increase productivity, 210 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 3: but increase to do money. Liquidity out there that has 211 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: to go somewhere, and that's what causes you the asset 212 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: and price inflations over time and undermines your ability to grow. 213 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: If you really want real growth, it does have to 214 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 3: come from increased savings. People giving up consumption now for 215 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 3: something in the future, not having money printed so I 216 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 3: can buy it now. And it's a wash, and you 217 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 3: see it everywhere. Excess liquidity causing the stock. 218 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: Market to go up. You know, it feels really good 219 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: if you. 220 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 3: Own those assets, if you own a house and you 221 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: know you can sell it for twice or three times 222 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 3: what you paid for. But what about new entrants, what 223 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 3: about new venture capital? What about new opportunities that has 224 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 3: to come from real savings that you can convert into 225 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 3: real productivity gains. And real productivity gains are what serve 226 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 3: the best interests of wage journers and capitalists both. 227 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a very tricky balance. 228 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: Yes, it's a tricky balance. It is it always has been. 229 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 3: That's why you have the FED supposedly independent so that 230 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 3: they don't cause inflation, they don't contribute to the misallocation 231 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 3: of credit, and used to be when the government had 232 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: to pull from the private sector, it became obvious sooner. 233 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 3: That's why you have the bond vigilanties, and you had 234 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 3: people who caused interest rates to come up, and that 235 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 3: was a discipline on the government. But when you print 236 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 3: money to accommodate that, that discipline seems to go away 237 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 3: temporarily until the inflation comes back and takes all that 238 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 3: gain away from the middle class. 239 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: When you've looked at it that way, you have a 240 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: situation where you at least have Trump sort of suggesting 241 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: that he might replace the current head of the Federal Reserve. 242 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: And I'm not sure legally he can. But does a 243 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: worry you to have too much political impact on the FED? Or, 244 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: in fact, given their recent track record, is it kind 245 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 1: of good to have people paying attention to them. 246 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 3: I think that there's always been people looking at the FED. 247 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: I mean, the issue of independence is really how much 248 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 3: you can stand up to that pressure. Our history is 249 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: full of presidents calling the chairman of the FED saying 250 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 3: we need this, we need that. And I think it 251 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: takes both leadership political leadership, because really the control of 252 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 3: money is really delegated to the Congress, who has then 253 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 3: put the FED in a position to carry that out 254 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 3: in an inventive way so that they don't print too 255 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: much money and the Congress doesn't spend too much money. 256 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 3: So I think it's always been there, it will always 257 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 3: be there. It's up to the FED to say no, 258 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: And then I think, yeah, you're right. I don't think 259 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 3: legally you can remove them. I think if the FED 260 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: does a good job, the pressure to do so will 261 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 3: will not be as great, but if we have inflation 262 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: or you know, presidents also like low interest rates, especially 263 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,960 Speaker 3: if they see their economy slowing, and that's when you 264 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 3: see the greatest pressure put on the reserve lower interest rates. 265 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 2: We don't want our economy stalling. Keep going. 266 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: You can't do this to us. It's all the Fed's fault. 267 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 3: That's when the real issue of independence comes up. 268 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: Almost always, it strikes me the Trump campaign in the 269 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,359 Speaker 1: twenty twenty four Republican Party platform really has a significant 270 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: commitment on tax cuts and regulatory reform. I'm curious, how 271 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: do you read the Trump economic plan? One do you 272 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 1: think he would work? And two do you think he 273 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: can get it through Congress. 274 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: That's a hard question to answer, but I think number one, 275 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 3: he certainly should try. Number two, I think though he 276 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 3: has a challenge. I think for this administration, it's harder 277 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 3: than it was even for when you were the Speaker 278 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 3: of the House, because the debt is so much greater 279 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 3: and the debt carry is so much greater than it 280 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 3: was when you were in the House. So yes, spending 281 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 3: cuts very important part of it, extremely important. 282 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: Number one. 283 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 3: Number two, though he's promised not to touch security and Medicare, 284 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: which are the two major spendings that are index to inflation. 285 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: And I think you're going to have a very difficult 286 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 3: time bringing the deficit back into balance without a broader 287 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 3: sweep than just we're going to cut the bureaucracy down, 288 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 3: which I think they should do number one. Number two, 289 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 3: I think deregulation is extremely important to improving productivity. You 290 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: hamstring businesses. Smaller banks, regional banks are hamstrung. They need 291 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 3: to be I think freed up more. Other industries are hamstrung, 292 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 3: they need to be freedom more. That's where you get productivity. 293 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 3: You know better than I do. When you were able, 294 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: you and the then administration were able to bring the 295 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 3: debt down and actually bring surplus forward. 296 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: Our productivity was very high. Their growth rate, real growth. 297 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 3: Rate, as you said, was four percent in at least 298 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: three of those four years, and. 299 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: Success came from it. 300 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: So they have to get the spending down and get 301 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 3: the debt more imbalance, and I think if they do that, 302 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 3: then people will feel confident that the debt is going 303 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: to be under control, and therefore you can invest and 304 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 3: you can get a real return, and labor can besides, 305 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 3: strike can get real wage increases without disrupting the economy 306 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 3: and then you get real productivity increases and real growth 307 00:17:16,320 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 3: that I think is around the four percent target that 308 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:35,960 Speaker 3: you were just mentioning. 309 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:38,960 Speaker 1: When you look at all that, how much do you 310 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: think Trump's talking about in commitment to tariffs plays into 311 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: all this? 312 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 2: It has a role certainly. Number one. 313 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 3: It will affect companies domestically, because tariffs will affect those 314 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:56,440 Speaker 3: who produce are important to produce. 315 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: Now. 316 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 3: It will also affect tax revenues to some extent, but 317 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: we don't know how much. I think there the question 318 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,239 Speaker 3: is how deep and how broad are the tariff's going 319 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 3: to be. I understand tariffs to protect national security. I 320 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 3: think there's legitimate arguments there. But I think tariffs in 321 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: and of themselves, I don't know if it will make sense. 322 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 3: But you know, free trade in the United States has 323 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,440 Speaker 3: been with us since the Constitution. You have these fifty states, 324 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 3: and you have free trade among them, and you have 325 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 3: laws of enforcement that protects it and gives you confidence 326 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 3: that it's protected. Free trade internationally can be very, very productive, 327 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 3: but it also has to be under laws, under rules 328 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 3: that are adhere to and can be enforced. And I 329 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 3: think one of the issues that made people resent the 330 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 3: open trade in our country over the last fifteen years 331 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,120 Speaker 3: or so, is that some country is cheap. And when 332 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 3: you have that, what you do is you try and 333 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 3: disrupt trade altogether. You put tariffs on you got to 334 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 3: stop it. And I think therein lies the hard part 335 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 3: of it. Do you really want to stop all trade 336 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 3: or do you want to stop the cheating? Because the 337 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: United States can outproduce anyone if you give us the 338 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: rules and we play by the rules and we expect 339 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: others to play by the rules. But I think that's 340 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 3: the hard part, having the laws and rules in place 341 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: to protect trade, not just promote trade for some and 342 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:25,679 Speaker 3: interfere with it for others. 343 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 1: Maybe it's because I'm a skeptical conservative, but even if 344 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: you have the rules in place, there is a potential 345 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: for countries who feel that they're going to lose under 346 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: the rules to just break loose and do whatever they 347 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: want to. 348 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: You don't have an international constitution like you do in 349 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 3: the United States. That's why trade internationally is so much controversial, 350 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 3: because you can't control the cheating part of it that 351 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: I think makes a difference, and you have national security 352 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 3: interests in the way as well. 353 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 2: It's a very fine line to walk, although I think. 354 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 3: In some ways trade is beneficial, but it has to 355 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 3: be on there are clear rules enforced, and you have 356 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 3: to have your national security in mind. 357 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: In my own career of twenty years serving in Congress, 358 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: and I gradually came to the conclusion that you can 359 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: chant free trade all you want to, but if you're 360 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 1: dealing with the Chinese, it's not going to be free trade. 361 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: It will be a negotiated arrangement. Otherwise they'll just simply 362 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: run over you. 363 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 3: And that's what we've seen happen, and that's where the 364 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 3: resentment is. We've had other trade issues, but at least 365 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 3: there that the enforcement is more above board, but we've 366 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 3: had a much more difficult time with the Chinese, no 367 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 3: question about it. 368 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: Trump had a clear cut record, I mean, other than 369 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 1: Rover Cleveland, we've never been in a situation to have 370 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: a president where you could look at their record, come 371 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: back four years later and decide whether you want to 372 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: hire them again. When you look at what he did 373 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,360 Speaker 1: actually accomplish, and then you look at the plans he's 374 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: talked about during the campaign, what's your level of confidence 375 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: that he can actually initiate a substantial American economic growth. 376 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 2: It's pretty high. 377 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,360 Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's going to push improvements in productivity. 378 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 3: I think he's going to press deregulation that's going to 379 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: increase productivity. 380 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: I'm very confident of that number one. 381 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: I think his big challenge, frankly, is what he's going 382 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: to do with the mandatory spending issues. Medicare is a 383 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 3: big part of the spending. Social Security is a big 384 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: part of it. Social Security is going to be falling 385 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 3: farther and farther behind. How are we going to deal 386 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,120 Speaker 3: with that is a very important question in solving our 387 00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 3: debt problem going forward. Productivity, yes, deregulation will help that. 388 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 3: If he can get a hold of the other part 389 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 3: of it, and that is get the deficits to stop 390 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 3: growing and our economy is growing faster than our debt accumulation, 391 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,240 Speaker 3: then we'll see productivity gains and we'll see real output. 392 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 3: That's his challenge, though, it's a huge challenge. 393 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: I think this topic and I really appreciate your coming 394 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: in taking the time to talk with this. This is 395 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: the heart of whether or not Trump can really put 396 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: together a long term American coalition. But if he can 397 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: deliver so the people feel that they have better lives 398 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: with more resources, with prices not skyrocketing. I think they're 399 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 1: likely to reward Trump and his allies for many, many years. 400 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: If they can't get that done, we'll be right back 401 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: in the soup of having very CONTENTI selections. 402 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 2: It seems to me that goes back to your first question. 403 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 3: Economics drives so much, and so the challenge is how 404 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 3: do we bring the middle class along, give them real 405 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 3: improvement and their standard of living as was done. I 406 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 3: mean those four years that you were involved with where 407 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 3: we balance a budget, those were very productive years, very strong, 408 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 3: real growth years. People were satisfied with that. When we 409 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 3: want to do more than that, when you can't afford it, 410 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 3: when it doesn't work and you put more in the 411 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,240 Speaker 3: federal government's purview. 412 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: Then you undermine that growth. 413 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: And when I say to you your average growth right 414 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 3: now is. 415 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 2: Two percent, that's half of what it was. That's not good. 416 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: That's not good, and so it don't define a future. 417 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: It's the compound interest effect that makes it so important 418 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: to keep growing, to keep moving in the right direction. 419 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: On the other hand, I guess I really am an optimist. 420 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: I look at what Elon Musk has done with the 421 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 1: development of reusable rockets. They just delivered a satellite to 422 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: a moon of Jupiter for about ten percent of what 423 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: Boeing would have charged. And I think that with artificial 424 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:34,160 Speaker 1: intelligence and with breakthroughs in medical care, two decades from now, 425 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: we could be in a golden age of extraordinary possibilities. 426 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 3: One thing the United States America is good at is 427 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: innovation and progress if they're allowed to do that, if 428 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 3: we don't overregulate them, and we don't overinflate. I mean, 429 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 3: we don't try and do more than what our economies, 430 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 3: but there's so much. 431 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 2: We can do. That's what we ought to learn from 432 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: is how much we can. 433 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 3: Do when we exercise some self discipline in terms of 434 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 3: our spending what we reach for. We can grab the stars, 435 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: but we have to do it in a way that 436 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: captures the productivity that our economy can produce and has 437 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 3: produced over its almost quarter millennium. So I'm very optimistic 438 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 3: as well, but I don't want to underestimate the challenges 439 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 3: that we have to faith. 440 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: Sony says that the other day something I really loved, 441 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: which is when we celebrate in twenty twenty six the 442 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: two hundred and fiftieth anniversary. We should make it a 443 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: two part celebration. One part looks back at a quarter millennium, 444 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: but the other part should look forward to the next 445 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty years and say, you know, what 446 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: is it we could accomplish. We've already seen what we've done. 447 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: Here's how far we've come. Imagine we go at least 448 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: that far in the next two hundred and fifty years. 449 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: And I thought that was a really positive way of 450 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: framing it. 451 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 3: I think it should because we have to think to 452 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 3: the future. You're right, we have to think another quarter 453 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 3: millennium forward because we then, I see, are the leader 454 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 3: of the world, and we are the freest economy, and 455 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 3: we are the freest people, and we have those potential. 456 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 3: Let's not squander it. Let's grab it and move forward. 457 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: That needs to be the message. 458 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: Well, when first comes vision, I mean, you have to 459 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: have a vision of what's possible to then go do it. Listen, Tom, 460 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: I want to thank you that this is a great conversation. 461 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: As you know, it's extraordinarily important, and I do want 462 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: to let our listeners know they can find out more 463 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: about the Mericada Center at George Mason University and the 464 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: work you're doing there at mericaidas dot org. But I 465 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: really appreciate you're taking the time to be with us today. 466 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 2: It's my pleasure to be with you again. Thank you. 467 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest Thomas Honig. You can learn 468 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: more about the state of our economy on our show 469 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: page at newtworld dot com. Newtorld is produced by Gamer 470 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,920 Speaker 1: three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsei Sloan. 471 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: Our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the show 472 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: was created by Steve Penley special thanks to the team 473 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: of Ginglish three sixty. If you've been enjoying Nuts World, 474 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple podcast and both rate 475 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 476 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 477 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,640 Speaker 1: of newts World can sign up for my three freeweekly 478 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwish three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 479 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: Nut Gingrich. This is Newtsworld.