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Speaker 1: can really double down on your stuff. And Hey, the

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Speaker 1: three of us would love to meet you. This is

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Speaker 1: tickets at New York Comic Con dot com Slash n

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Speaker 1: y c C hyphen presents Welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: Your Mind from how Stuff Works dot com. Hey, welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert

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Speaker 1: Lamb and I'm Christian Seger. And this week we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Timothy Leary. Now we're not just gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: Timothy Leary. We're also going to talk about science of LSD,

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Speaker 1: the history of LSD, the use of LSD and psilocybin

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Speaker 1: in various UH research projects. What these substances actually due

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Speaker 1: to the mind to the brain. But we're going to

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Speaker 1: use Timothy Leary as kind of, you know, sort of

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Speaker 1: a guiding principle, I guess for this episode. And if

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Speaker 1: you're if you're out there and you're thinking, well, I

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Speaker 1: love Timothy Learry, well, then strap in. If you're out

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Speaker 1: there and you're you're thinking yourself, well, I don't know

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Speaker 1: that I like this Timothy Leary guy, well, strap in

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, I think we've got something for everybody here.

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Speaker 1: We uh, we're basically sheltered during a hurricane this week,

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Speaker 1: and so Robert and I just binge read about Timothy

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Speaker 1: Leary for four days straight. We've got a lot to

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Speaker 1: share with you. My eyes are bleeding a little, but

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Speaker 1: I think you're going to be interested in this so

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Speaker 1: much so that we're going to do this as a

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Speaker 1: two parter. Yes, uh, now, just to refresh anybody out

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Speaker 1: there and too, and to inform from anyone who just

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Speaker 1: who doesn't know who Timothy Learry is. Well. Timothy Leary

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Speaker 1: was an American psychologist, author, and a key figure of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties counterculture and psychedelics you know movement in general.

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Speaker 1: He lived nineteen twenty through nineteen, and he managed to

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Speaker 1: run a foul of pretty much every organization he was

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Speaker 1: a part of. Uh. He was arrested uh enough times

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Speaker 1: that he supposedly saw the inside of thirty six different prisons.

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Speaker 1: He earned the ire of many Americans, even as he

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Speaker 1: was able to submit a reputation as also kind of

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Speaker 1: a you know, a counterculture leader uh his and I

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Speaker 1: think the reason is because he has this message of

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Speaker 1: inner exploration of anti establishment thinking, and this this resonated

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Speaker 1: with folks and continues to resonate. His writings, his soothing,

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Speaker 1: sage like voice on numerous audio recordings, his his his

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Speaker 1: irresistible celebrity allure. It all made him just impossible to ignore,

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Speaker 1: love him or hate him. Plus he was not the

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Speaker 1: sort of guy to let the limelight go away new

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Speaker 1: and we'll and we'll get into all that he uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: he he clung to it, and people gravitated to him

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Speaker 1: as well. He was more than willing to rub elbows

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Speaker 1: with scientists like Carl Sagan, artists like hr and Geeger,

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Speaker 1: performers like John Lennon, uh, and you know, such luminaries

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Speaker 1: as Alan Ginsburg, a'l just Huxley, William Burrows, Jack Caro,

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Speaker 1: Whack and kin KESI. He even kept the company of

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Speaker 1: former enemies when it benefited, and such as Watergate Burglar

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Speaker 1: and later conservative radio talk show host G Gordon Liddy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this guy has been widely influential. He was. I

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Speaker 1: have a derogatory saying that I say sometimes about people

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Speaker 1: like Leary, although I think Leary was doing this before

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Speaker 1: this guy. He was the Cato Kalin of his time.

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Speaker 1: Like he was famous for being famous he was. Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't because of a very specific thing he did,

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Speaker 1: and we learned this through the research. But I have

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Speaker 1: to be honest that, like, my experience with him was

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Speaker 1: basically thinking, oh, this was an academic who had done

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Speaker 1: some studies and then sort of became a guru like figure,

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Speaker 1: much like Sasha Shulgin when we talked about him during

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Speaker 1: our two parter on M D M A. Now, Sasha

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Speaker 1: Shulgin was a practicing chemist who is in his laboratory

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Speaker 1: up until he died. Right, Uh, Leary was not. He

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Speaker 1: did do some interesting studies in the fifties and sixties,

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Speaker 1: and we're gonna get into all of that stuff, but

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Speaker 1: first I think we should probably talk about his influence

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Speaker 1: on music. Yeah, I have to say that before I

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Speaker 1: knew anything about Timothy Leary, I knew the moody blues

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Speaker 1: song legend of the mind is the has the chorus

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Speaker 1: Timothy Learies Dead, you know, yeah, and so forth. Wonderful,

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Speaker 1: wonderful track. I listened to it several times while researching

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Speaker 1: this episode. Other fan music fans out there might recognize

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Speaker 1: the the the the sampling of his voice in various recordings,

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Speaker 1: probably most notable a live version of Tools Third Eye,

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Speaker 1: where they have the bit to think for yourself, question authority. Um,

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Speaker 1: and then you'll find numerous other musical projects that make

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Speaker 1: use of his soothing voice and in fact, and he

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Speaker 1: was involved in several of these projects as well. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there's an ambient instrumental like sitar distortion album titled Turn

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Speaker 1: Onto an End Dropout, which was one of his catchphrases.

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Speaker 1: And that's actually like really good listening. I fired up

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Speaker 1: every now and then you just kind of, you know,

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Speaker 1: chill out and and you know, don't think about what's

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Speaker 1: being said too much. But um, the interesting thing is

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Speaker 1: we've alluded to is that there is this kind of

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Speaker 1: surface level pop culture idea of Leary and it doesn't.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily hold up when you start going into

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Speaker 1: the details of who he was, the sorts of research

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Speaker 1: projects he was involved in. Um Like I I really

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Speaker 1: wanted him to be more in line with with another

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Speaker 1: counterculture contra virtual character. We've talked about John C. Lily, right,

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Speaker 1: but there's not really a lot to compare the two

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Speaker 1: besides the LSD connection, right, And that's actually kind of

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Speaker 1: what's happening with this episode is we're getting a convergence

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Speaker 1: of two types of episodes that we normally do. We

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Speaker 1: have a history of doing these two parters on specific

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Speaker 1: psychedelics and looking at their scientific and medical applications. But

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Speaker 1: then we also have a history of doing episodes like

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Speaker 1: the John C. Lily one or the Sasha Shulgin one.

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Speaker 1: We call them our psychedelic Avengers. And we thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna emerge Tim Leary and this LSD psilocybin research

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Speaker 1: together and it will be really interesting. It turns out

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Speaker 1: that that he wasn't actually contributing to the research, but

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Speaker 1: I think it does come together in a really interesting

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Speaker 1: way thematically when we get to the whole piece of this,

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Speaker 1: and in that I think he was a barometer for

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Speaker 1: America's acceptance of the idea of researching acid as being

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Speaker 1: a medical tool. Yeah, it's interesting how he was his

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Speaker 1: just will just discuss he was, you know, a spokesperson

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Speaker 1: for this. He represented that the supposedly a a learned

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Speaker 1: academic who was who was advocating LSD as this this

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Speaker 1: powerful tool, and yet at the same time he also

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Speaker 1: was such um an inflammatory individual as part of the

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Speaker 1: counterculture heat uh. A lot of people point to the

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Speaker 1: harm he did as one of one of the key

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Speaker 1: figures um more so than John C. Lily uh who

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Speaker 1: who vilified the counterculture and vilify the use of psychedelics

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Speaker 1: and one of the reasons that psychedelics were not studied

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Speaker 1: for for decades. Yeah, there are multiple researchers in the

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Speaker 1: notes here that we'll talk about throughout the course of

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Speaker 1: these two episodes who point to Leary as being the

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Speaker 1: reason why we haven't been able to use LSD in

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Speaker 1: UM medically approved studies for going on thirty plus years now,

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Speaker 1: longer than that, I think even it was. It's in

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Speaker 1: the notes here somewhere, but it was in the mid

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Speaker 1: sixties when it was banned. So, yeah, strap in because

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Speaker 1: that's the other thing, we're going to get into a

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Speaker 1: real basic primer for you on what LSD is, what's

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Speaker 1: the difference between LSD and psilocybin, and then we'll roll

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Speaker 1: into the Leary experience. Okay, So to go back to

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Speaker 1: the very beginning here, let's just go to the the

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Speaker 1: origins of l s D itself, since that's the main

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Speaker 1: substance that we're gonna be discussing here. So Swiss chemist

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Speaker 1: Albert Hoffman synthesized l s D and a Sandas pharmaceutical

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Speaker 1: lab on November six uh. Sandas was working on a

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Speaker 1: research project involving a parasitic fungus called ergot that grows

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Speaker 1: on rye. Now you may remember that Joe and I

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Speaker 1: recorded an episode titled The Psychedelic Nightmare of Ergotism that

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Speaker 1: dealt with the ergot and that that is the same

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Speaker 1: substance that we're discussing here. And you know, aside from

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Speaker 1: a noteworthy and truly horrifying breakouts of ergod poisoning in Europe,

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Speaker 1: it has been linked to various supernatural rights as well

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Speaker 1: as as well as allegedly individual artist and artistic traditions

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Speaker 1: throughout history, though I think sometimes those are mere theories, right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And so just to be clear here, San DAWs was

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Speaker 1: a pharmaceutical company that started in eighteen eighties six and

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Speaker 1: they began researching for more novel kind of drugs in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen. They were basically looking for therapeutic leads based

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Speaker 1: on natural products. So they turned to ergot Why, well,

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Speaker 1: they had an example that they had already created called ergotamine.

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Speaker 1: That was a drug that they had created for treating

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Speaker 1: migraine headaches. So Hoffman came along and he started looking

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Speaker 1: at ergat and he saw the lisergic acid in it,

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Speaker 1: and he thought, well, maybe this LSD that I can

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Speaker 1: synthesize out of this will be a good respiratory stimulants.

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Speaker 1: So for instance, make maybe if you have asthma, you

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Speaker 1: take some LSD and it will help you breathe better. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he ended up derived being different compounds from lysergic acid,

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Speaker 1: and he developed several medicines, including drugs that lowered blood

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Speaker 1: pressure and improved brain function in the elderly. And he

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Speaker 1: derived the twenty five in a series of these derivatives.

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Speaker 1: It was lysergic acid dithalamide or LSD twenty five, and

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Speaker 1: he thought that LSD stimulate breathing circulation, but test didn't

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Speaker 1: show anything special, and Sandaz abandoned further study. But then

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Speaker 1: five years later, Hoffman's thoughts returned to LSD potential and

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Speaker 1: he felt that it hadn't been fully explored, so he

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Speaker 1: took the you know, perhaps unusual step of synthesizing another

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Speaker 1: batch further testing, and during the process he began to

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Speaker 1: feel strange. Um. The rest is history. He discovered the

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Speaker 1: properties of LSD and I've I've heard it described as

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Speaker 1: his his problem child, like it. Basically the rest of

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Speaker 1: his life he kept coming back to LSD and and

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out, like, you know what what it

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Speaker 1: can be used for and how you know, what are

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Speaker 1: the true properties of this. At this same time, there's

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Speaker 1: this kind of roller coaster of of cultural awareness of

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Speaker 1: it taking place in the background. Yeah. Yeah, And he

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Speaker 1: has that infamous bicycle ride as well, right after he

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Speaker 1: takes it for the first time that has been sort

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Speaker 1: of mythologized over the years. Yes. Now, l s D,

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Speaker 1: to be clear, is a psychedelic drug, meaning that it

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Speaker 1: alters perceptions of reality, the shape of thoughts, the connections

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Speaker 1: that one forms. I can't stress enough that one should

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Speaker 1: set aside any cinematic uh ideas of what acid trips

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Speaker 1: consists of, because it's it's rare to find a film

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Speaker 1: that truly feels trippy in a way that matches up

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Speaker 1: with the actual experience of ls D. You don't. You

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Speaker 1: don't see imaginary elves or anything. It's if you watch

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Speaker 1: just films and TV, you just assume that an LSD

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Speaker 1: trip is a dream sequence, and a dream sequence is

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Speaker 1: just an LSD trip, that these are in just interchangeable

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Speaker 1: altered states of reality, right, Yeah, exactly. I remember, like

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Speaker 1: growing up when kids would start talking about LSD and

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Speaker 1: it being available to us just all the like various

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Speaker 1: like bizarre urban myths that people would tell, you know, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's this one guy who took it and uh, he

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Speaker 1: thinks he's an orange now and he doesn't know how

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Speaker 1: stop being an orange, or like another one was like

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Speaker 1: this guy took it and he saw a bunch of

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Speaker 1: everybody looked like giant white guerrillas to him, and he

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Speaker 1: fought all these guerrillas and it's like these sort of

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Speaker 1: spectacular stories. Well, it does have hallucinogenic properties, there's their

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Speaker 1: mythologized Yeah, I always think back to an episode of

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Speaker 1: Strangers with Candy where there's a story of a girl

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Speaker 1: who try took alice D and tried to force herself

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Speaker 1: through a key hole. You know. Now, that's not to

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Speaker 1: say that that nothing bad can happen while while one

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Speaker 1: is on l S D. We'll have some examples of

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Speaker 1: that as well as we go on here. But in

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Speaker 1: terms of just like what the experience of the elics

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Speaker 1: D that basically what is the psychedelic experience? Uh? Oddly enough,

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Speaker 1: I'm I want to turn to some the words of

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Speaker 1: Timothy Leary because I thought that that he actually managed

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Speaker 1: to sum it up rather nicely here and uh, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go ahead and read it in my impersonation

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Speaker 1: of Timothy Leary because it's more fun that way for

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Speaker 1: me and hopefully for you. Of course, the drug dose

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Speaker 1: does not produce transcendent experience. It merely acts as a

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Speaker 1: chemical key. It opens the mind, frees the nervous system

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Speaker 1: of its ordinary patterns and structures. The nature of the

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Speaker 1: experience depends almost entirely on set and setting. Set denotes

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Speaker 1: the preparation of the individual, including his personality, structure, and

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Speaker 1: his mood. At the same time setting is physical, the weather,

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Speaker 1: the room's atmosphere, social feelings of persons present toward one another,

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Speaker 1: and cultural prevailing views as to what is real. It

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Speaker 1: is for this reason that manuals or guide books are necessary.

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Speaker 1: Their purpose is to enable a person to understand the

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Speaker 1: new realities of the expanded consciousness, to serve as roadmaps

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Speaker 1: for new interior territories which modern science has made accessible.

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Speaker 1: So to give you an idea of what LSD is

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Speaker 1: like outside of the experience, outside of getting turned on,

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Speaker 1: as Leary would not right, It starts without about an

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Speaker 1: hour of when you first take it, and it can

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Speaker 1: last up to twelve hours. Uh, there's a peak about

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Speaker 1: halfway through that experience. And the effects very widely, but

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Speaker 1: biologically they include dilated pupils, increased blood pressure, high body temperature, dizziness, sweat,

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Speaker 1: blurred vision, and tingly hands and feet. The primary effects, though,

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Speaker 1: are visual, which is more what Leary is describing there.

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Speaker 1: You get stronger colors, brighter lights, trails, halos, and patterns. Overall,

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Speaker 1: people say it provides a sense of happiness and euphoria.

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Speaker 1: That's very emotional. However, though, as we said, this can

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Speaker 1: also lead to impulsive behavior. And poor judgment. When you're

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Speaker 1: under the effects of this euphoria. Yeah, you you feel

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Speaker 1: you're body as if it's something new, something different. You

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Speaker 1: smell and taste the world in a different way, visual stimulized, processed,

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Speaker 1: and with new areas of focus, new details, and and

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Speaker 1: the same can be said for cognition. Uh. And the

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Speaker 1: same can be said for the basic processing of time.

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Speaker 1: And so indeed, that is the that is the essential

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Speaker 1: psychedelic experience, uh, in a nutshell. And there's one thing

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Speaker 1: I'd like to point out before we go further here,

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Speaker 1: which is that we don't actually know how it affects

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Speaker 1: the brain entirely. And why don't we know that because

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Speaker 1: there's never been any scientific research on how it affects

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Speaker 1: the brain because it has been banned largely in the

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Speaker 1: United States and some other countries for for the last

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Speaker 1: couple of decades, as we mentioned, So this is kind

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Speaker 1: of a problem. We've got this thing on our hands.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows about it, we have a general understanding of it,

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Speaker 1: but we haven't done the research. Yeah, and we've touched

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Speaker 1: on this. So when we've talked about marijuana, so a

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Speaker 1: cybin as well as m d M A you have

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Speaker 1: these substances that just became banned. Research into their properties right,

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Speaker 1: was at the very least professionally taboo for so long.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, despite the fact that they clearly have powerful properties,

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Speaker 1: we don't necessarily understand them all that much. It's believed

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Speaker 1: that LSD works similar to serotonin, a neurotransmitters responsible for

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Speaker 1: regulating moods, appetite, muscle control, sexuality, sleep, and sensory perception.

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Speaker 1: And ls D seems to interfere with the way the

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Speaker 1: brain serotonin receptors work, so it may inhibit neurotransmission, stimulated

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Speaker 1: or both. It also affects the way that the retinas

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Speaker 1: process information and conduct that information to the brain. So

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Speaker 1: you might be listening to this and saying, well, hold on,

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Speaker 1: I've never taken any of this stuff before, and you're

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Speaker 1: just kind of throwing these terms around. What's the difference

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Speaker 1: between LSD and psilocybin. While psilocybin is a fun guy,

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Speaker 1: and that's classified by botanists and my cologists people to

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Speaker 1: study mushrooms. While they were used by the Aztecs in

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Speaker 1: religious rituals, the American public didn't really find out about

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Speaker 1: psilocybin until nineteen fifty seven, and this was when an

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Speaker 1: article in Life magazine recounted the adventures of a New

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Speaker 1: York banker in Mexico where he tried it. H Yeah,

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Speaker 1: LSD totally different. It is colorless, odorless, and tasteless and ingesting.

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Speaker 1: Just twenty five micrograms is enough to feel effects. Now,

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Speaker 1: to give you an idea of what twenty five micrograms is,

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Speaker 1: that's less than the weight of two salt grains. It

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Speaker 1: is very quickly metabolized by the human body. Now, as

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Speaker 1: previously established, LSD is a chemical that synthesized in a

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Speaker 1: laboratory setting, whereas psilocybin is a fun guy that's grown

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Speaker 1: in nage. One is natural one is created in a lap.

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Speaker 1: Several chemicals that could go into l s D are

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Speaker 1: currently sales restricted here in America or are monitored by

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Speaker 1: the Drug Enforcement Agency. And there's all kinds of different

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Speaker 1: recipes on how to make it. Some start with lysergic

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Speaker 1: acid that's derived from morning glory seeds. Others use that

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Speaker 1: ergot fungus that we talked about earlier and how it

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Speaker 1: was discovered. They culture that and they extract ergot alkaloids

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Speaker 1: from it. This fungus and LSD itself can break down

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Speaker 1: when exposed to light, and that's important to note as well.

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Speaker 1: In this ergot recipe, the solvents and reagents involved are

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Speaker 1: also very dangerous. They're poisonous, carcinogenic, and explosive. So it's fun.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine marking on this stuff, like if you've

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Speaker 1: got your little laboratory, you've got to be really careful.

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Speaker 1: You know. This is like uh um, some Jesse and

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Speaker 1: Walter White stuff where you've got to be really careful

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Speaker 1: about what kind of stuff you're concocting and what you're

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Speaker 1: breathing in and whether you're not you blow up your trailer. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is straight up chemistry. And that's the other different

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Speaker 1: psilocybin is uh is ultimately uh, it's it's about I

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Speaker 1: guess scavenging or or growing naturally occurring organism. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is chemistry. So the way you do it is you

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Speaker 1: synthesize the ergot alkaloid into a life surgic acid compound,

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Speaker 1: and you do this by adding chemicals and applying heat.

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Speaker 1: After word, you isomerize the compounds so that the atoms

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Speaker 1: in its molecules rearrange. This involves some cooling, mixing, it

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Speaker 1: with an acid, an actual acid, not the term acid,

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Speaker 1: also a base, and then evaporating it. The remnants are

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Speaker 1: iOS lysergic dithalamide, which is then isomerized again and that

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Speaker 1: produces what's called active LSD. So finally you purify it,

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Speaker 1: you crystallize it. Afterward, LSD can be made into tablets,

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Speaker 1: or it's dissolved into liquid or made into gelatine squares.

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Speaker 1: Most often it's dissolved into ethanol, and then that ethanol

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Speaker 1: is added to sheets of blotting paper that are then dried,

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Speaker 1: cut up into little pieces, and people get tabs. It

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Speaker 1: looks just like the candy that you can buy. I'm

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Speaker 1: not really sure on the history of that. Can you

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Speaker 1: know the one where it basically looks like blot Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Like which came first. It's a good question this is

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Speaker 1: this like candy cigarettes or is it just a happy

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Speaker 1: coincidence that this terrible candy looks like acid? Yeah? That

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Speaker 1: is curious. If any listeners know, please let us in

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Speaker 1: on the secret. There A lot of you have probably

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Speaker 1: also heard about bad trips. We mentioned them earlier. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not really clear what causes these bad trips, but

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Speaker 1: they result in fear and paranoia, and treatment usually requires

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Speaker 1: basically going to a quiet space so that the user

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Speaker 1: can just come down, but sometimes you have to administer

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Speaker 1: anti anxiety medication or tranquilizers, so that that's important to

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Speaker 1: remember as well. Yeah, this makes me think of a

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Speaker 1: lot of the research involving psilocybin um that really ultimately

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Speaker 1: kind of backs up some of what Leary said in

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Speaker 1: that that bit that I read in that a lot

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Speaker 1: of it comes down to priming, preparing the individual for

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Speaker 1: what the trip is going to consist of, and then

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Speaker 1: of course personal medical and personal psychiatric history is going

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Speaker 1: to play into that scenario. Yeah. Absolutely. Now you've also

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Speaker 1: probably heard of flashbacks, right, this is the other thing

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Speaker 1: like when when I was in high school, like all

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Speaker 1: the legends, it was like, Oh, he's gonna see those

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Speaker 1: White Guerrillas every year for the rest of his life,

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Speaker 1: right like something like that. Oh yeah, it's this is

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Speaker 1: something that is that pops up in films and TV

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Speaker 1: from time to time, and it's either just completely ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: like the White Guerrillas, or even when it is a

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Speaker 1: lot cooler and more believable, say with the first season

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Speaker 1: of True Detective, there's still a lot a lot of

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Speaker 1: doubts from some individuals to to what extent this is

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Speaker 1: a thing or or a realistic depiction of it if

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Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, here's the deal with flashbacks. There's no

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Speaker 1: evidence to support the idea that LSD remains in your

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Speaker 1: body forever in amounts inside your brain or spinal fluid.

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Speaker 1: People say that, but we don't have any evidence on it.

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Speaker 1: Why because we really haven't been able to study it. Right. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some people think though, that this is what causes flashbacks.

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Speaker 1: The majority of users the report never having had flashbacks,

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Speaker 1: and of those who have reported it, many are mentally ill,

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Speaker 1: and some doctors believe that what they're perceiving is actually

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Speaker 1: a form of psychosis that emerged due to the LSD use.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a medically recognized disorder called hallucinogen persisting perceptive disorder,

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Speaker 1: and this is for people who constantly experience visual hallucinations

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Speaker 1: after they take LSD. This is a little different than

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Speaker 1: the idea of flashbacks, right. I mean, it's also worth

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Speaker 1: noting that the visual hallucinations can occur for a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons. Um, So it's it's entirely possible that one

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Speaker 1: could could could take LSD and then what a year later,

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Speaker 1: they experienced some sort of visual hallucination and one of

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Speaker 1: the main ways they can describe it is the narrative

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Speaker 1: of acid flashbacks and then they're going and then that

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Speaker 1: becomes encoded in memory. So one last thing I want

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Speaker 1: to make clear about ls D before we we cap

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Speaker 1: off this summary here. LSD is not an addictive drug.

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Speaker 1: So if somebody tells you you know you're gonna take that,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna get hooked on it or something like that,

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00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:55,879
Speaker 1: that's just patently untrue. Uh. The real basic way that

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00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 1: it works is that if you take it a lot,

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Speaker 1: your body is going to get used to it, and

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Speaker 1: subsequently the effects are going to lessen over time. So

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Speaker 1: that's the opposite of something that you become addicted to.

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00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: It doesn't work in the same way as something like heroin.

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Speaker 1: Right though then some people may point out there's the

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Speaker 1: whole idea that like, the first time you take heroin

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Speaker 1: is the best, and then you're always chasing that dragon. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But still, the LSD, psilocybin, d m T, any of

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Speaker 1: these psychedelic substances that we've discussed on the program before,

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Speaker 1: they are they are not addictive in the the very

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Speaker 1: literal way that stuff like heroin is. Alright, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: take a quick break and we come back. We're going

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Speaker 1: to continue to talk about the psychedelics, and in particular,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about psychedelics in medicine. Alright, we're back. So,

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Speaker 1: according to Timothy Leary's archivist, a guy named Michael Horowitz,

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Speaker 1: before Leary, the research being done on psychedelics was mostly

415
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Speaker 1: done by the CIA and the Army. Uh makes us

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Speaker 1: think of d and stranger things. Yeah, but they were

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00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,959
Speaker 1: looking to weaponize it, dosing subjects without their knowledge. Now,

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Speaker 1: what he's actually talking about is the CIS attempts with

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Speaker 1: stuff like Project Bluebird and Project mk Ultra to develop

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Speaker 1: mind control techniques. We actually have an episode about Stranger

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Speaker 1: Things coming up in the next couple of weeks where

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about this stuff. The basic

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Speaker 1: idea here that I'm gonna boil it down quickly is

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00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 1: that they were inspired by Nazi research experiments in the

425
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 1: Dakow concentration camp. Subsequently, they tested on helpless populations like prisoners,

426
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: drug addicts, and mental patients, and at one point the

427
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: government reportedly ordered over a hundred million doses of LSD

428
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: from sand DAWs, that company that discovered it, so that

429
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: they could experiment with contaminating a water supply. So they

430
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: wanted to weaponize this and basically see like, can we

431
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 1: put a whole bunch of LSD in one of our

432
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 1: enemies water supplies? You know this really sad thing about this,

433
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 1: uh portion of the story is the it underlies, uh

434
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: you know, a fact about military first research. You know

435
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: that essentially mility military researchers come in and say, okay,

436
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: can we use it to kill people? Better? Can we

437
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 1: use it to enable our our our our warfare in

438
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: some way, shape or form, And if not, well then

439
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 1: we're done with it. We see this time and time

440
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: again on the show, and whenever we dig deep into topics,

441
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 1: whether it be uh the weaponization of animals we've done

442
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 1: an episode on, or a lot of our space based

443
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 1: stuff is usually related to weaponizing space at some point. Uh. So, Actually,

444
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: the government Sandas wouldn't supply them that much, so they

445
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: turned to another company. They wanted the company to break

446
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: sandas is patent and produce the chemical, but the whole

447
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,159
Speaker 1: thing never came to pass, and the government essentially deemed

448
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: LSD too unpredictable for their general use. Now, Leary pioneered

449
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: research into how psychedelics could reveal the nature of human

450
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: consciousness and possibly help people with depression and anxiety, but

451
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 1: he also precipitated a backlash against psychedelics that criminalized them

452
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 1: and made it impossible for others to do research on them. Uh.

453
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 1: Leary supporters argue, that's not Leary's fault. This would have

454
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: happened anyways, you know, And I can see, you know,

455
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: I can see both sides of that. But he was

456
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: undoubtedly m a key figure and in a in a

457
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: very um, you know, ultimately a very like hateable figure.

458
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: Like part of his his charisma and his charm, it

459
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: just worked like poison against the people who already had,

460
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, a conservative bent. Yeah, it's true, and we're

461
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: going to see time and time again people turn against him,

462
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: and not the kind of people that you would expect. Right,

463
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,640
Speaker 1: So let's back up for a second here, what about

464
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: before Leary? How we're scientists and researchers looking at it

465
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: before that. Well, in the nineteen fifties, some researchers began

466
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: investigating whether psychedelics could treat mental health disorders or addiction.

467
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: The federal government funded a hundred and sixteen of these studies.

468
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: But between nineteen fifty three and nineteen seventy three, again

469
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,440
Speaker 1: I turned to our episode on M D, M A

470
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 1: and Sasha and Shulgin. They're perfect example of this. Along

471
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: those lines is kind of what was going on with

472
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 1: psychiatrists and various researchers working with LSD and patients to

473
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,159
Speaker 1: see how it could work. Sandaz was essentially selling it

474
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: as a psychiatric product, right and these and these were

475
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: reputable research operations. We had not yet gotten to the

476
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: point where Leary comes along or or John C. Lily

477
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: comes along and you know, starts giving it to dolphins, yeah, exactly,

478
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: or or giving it to himself while he's hanging out

479
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: with dolphins. Uh. Now, the sam Does Company patented it,

480
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: but they sold it as Della sid beginning in nineteen

481
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,880
Speaker 1: forty seven, and they sold it in twenty five microgram

482
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: tablets that were designed for analytical psychotherapy. They suggested that

483
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: the psychiatrists themselves take it so that they could better

484
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: understand their patients experiences. Now, when they stopped making it,

485
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: they said, this is about the fact that there's a

486
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: lack of regulation and that there's inaccurate information being perpetuated

487
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 1: about this drug. But between nineteen fifty and nineteen sixty five,

488
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 1: forty thousand patients were given Delhi sid tablets basically legal LSD,

489
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: and Dr Max Wrinkle was the first to bring LSD

490
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 1: to the United States and then test it on a

491
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: population of a hundred volunteers. He and his colleague Dr

492
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 1: Paul Hope noted that LSD produced effects that quote mimic

493
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: schizophrenic psychosis. So this is you can see what there's

494
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: some as Another theme that we come back to over

495
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: and over again on the show is early psychological theory

496
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 1: seems to be very uh generalized and biased, right, and

497
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: this is another example of that. They're like, oh, there's

498
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: this thing. It just seems to make you schizophrenic, you know,

499
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 1: and there just wasn't enough research behind it. But recreational

500
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: drug use increased dramatically in the sixt s, such that

501
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: as many as two million people had dropped acid by

502
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. So by nineteen sixty five there were

503
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: very few researchers who were allowed to possess LSD. Only

504
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: six projects were conducted in nineteen sixty nine. In nineteen seventy,

505
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: the US Congress added psychedelics into the government War on Drugs,

506
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: and the federal government declared these drugs had no medical use.

507
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: The chairman for New Jersey's Narcotic Drug Study Commission called

508
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 1: LSD the greatest threat facing the country today, more dangerous

509
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: than the Vietnam War. It seems like a little hyperbot.

510
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: By nineteen seventy four, the National Institutes for Mental Health

511
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: declared that LSD had quote no real therapeutic value. So

512
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: there was a strong establishment bent against this drug, which

513
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: Timothy Leary unfortunately did not help with his antics. UH. Today,

514
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: though l s D is a Schedule one drug in

515
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: the United States, it's under the Controlled subs sens Is Act.

516
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: This basically means the government believes that it has high

517
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: abuse potential, which we've already established that's not addictive. UH,

518
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: it has a lack of accepted safe uses when taken

519
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: under medical supervision. We'll talk a little bit about how

520
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: there actually are some of those, and that it basically

521
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: has no current medical use in their minds. Again, there's

522
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 1: evidence that it does. Now. I want to remind everybody

523
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 1: that by placing it as a Schedule one, they're placing

524
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: it in the same category as marijuana and uh, and

525
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: they're placing it in a stricter category than category two,

526
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: which includes cocaine. Yep. So since then, only a small

527
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: number of studies have been conducted. You've got small sample sizes,

528
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: so there's not a lot of research that we can

529
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 1: rely on. The early results are broad. They suggest that

530
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: when used by people without a family history or risk

531
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: of psychological problems, psychedelics can actually make us kinder, calmer,

532
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: and better at our jobs. They also help us solve

533
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: problems more creatively and make us more open minded and generous. Yeah,

534
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting when you look at the research here

535
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: about these potential uses for psychedelics that one is insolute

536
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: reminded of meditation, because both both meditation and psilocybin have

537
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: been shown to shut down the default fault mode network,

538
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: that constant stream of worry chat about past and future

539
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: in your brain um, and that the brain activity is

540
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: similar even if the experience you know, obviously isn't going

541
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: to always be the same though there there is often

542
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: a certain amount of crossover UM and we'll have to

543
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: get into that more when we do a focus on

544
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: meditation in the future. Yeah, I mean, what Robert's referring

545
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: to is the default mode and network. This is a

546
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: group of structures in the brain. They're found in the

547
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: frontal and prefrontal cortex. That's what's responsible for our ego

548
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: and our sense of self, and it's why we as

549
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: humans have very rigid habitual thinking that let's face it,

550
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: we can obsess over right on psychedelics that slows down

551
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 1: and the boundaries betwe in the self in the world dissolve,

552
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: allowing for therapy sessions that can be more effective. Yeah. Yeah,

553
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: there are a number of excellent studies here. At two

554
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: thousand and eleven study at John Hopkins University gave high

555
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: doses of psilocybin to fifty one test subjects and according

556
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: to ABC News, a thirty of these individuals experienced measurable

557
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: personality changes that lasted more than a year. So as

558
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: of twenty six, a year ago, about five hundred people

559
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 1: have participated informal psilocybin experience. That's not LSD. It's worth

560
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: remembering though, that these volunteers are self selected and are

561
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: carefully screened and then are guided by therapists. So psychedelics

562
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: used outside of control settings, yes, they can cause problems,

563
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 1: including bad trips where the users feel extremely anxious and depressed.

564
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: This doesn't account for the occasional flashbacks that we talked

565
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,320
Speaker 1: about earlier, whether that's a real thing or not. Right,

566
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: the possible future of research is very promising. Patients are

567
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 1: recommend ended for treatment by a doctor, for instance, This

568
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: might be what we we look at in a few years. Right,

569
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: you get recommended for LSD R psilocybin treatment by your doctor.

570
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 1: They get you screened for mental illness, They look at

571
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: your heart to see if you have any heart conditions.

572
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: Then they're prepping you about what to expect. You're monitored

573
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: by a medical professional while you're under the effects. This

574
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: is someone that they have, you know, established a trusting

575
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: relationship with you. Is not just some scary orderly who

576
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 1: stands there the whole time. They have to work with

577
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: you for at least six to eight hours ahead of time.

578
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 1: Then the experience you have is contained, so it's something

579
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: you can build a life around, right, you can you

580
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 1: can figure out how to solve the problems that you're

581
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: going in for around this. Across the board, though, like you,

582
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: we're looking at at openness is one of the key

583
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: positive results of psaulocybin use other hallucinations that have been

584
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: explored in these various research programs. Yeah, and so you

585
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: look at what are the possibilities here. If we can

586
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: get the FDA to reschedule it, what can we do

587
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: with it? Well, there, I've already been studies that have

588
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: looked at how psilocybin or LSD can be used to

589
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,280
Speaker 1: help terminal patients deal with the end of life anxiety.

590
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: You can potentially help people who have addictive problems. There's

591
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: been studies that have been done on smoking cessation and

592
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: alcoholism related to it. Uh. And then also psychedelics can

593
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: potentially help mental wellness. There's been a number of studies

594
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: that have been done basically looking at how it can

595
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: prolong positive changes in attitude and mood. Um. When I

596
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: think about LSD or psilocybin for myself, I've never taken either,

597
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 1: But when I hear these very controlled laboratory conditions described

598
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: as somebody who's never taken it, that's actually more appealing

599
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: to me. The idea of it being done in a

600
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: controlled setting like that. Well, you know, the crazy part

601
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: about it is that like the idea of of say

602
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: people or young people taking LSD, solocybin or whatever and

603
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 1: not really knowing what they're doing and having, you know,

604
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: maybe a positive experience, maybe a negative like that's that's

605
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: not in keeping a with the clinical use of it.

606
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: But but all but be with the with the traditional

607
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: use of some of these substances, where you would have

608
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 1: not a scientist but a shaman to administer these things.

609
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: There were rituals, there were there was a process. It

610
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: was communal. Yeah, it was a communal experience with lots

611
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: of priming. Yeah. Now, so just from my perspective, because

612
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: I know I have a history of depression and anxiety,

613
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: and my family has a history of depression and anxiety,

614
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: I've always worried, well, I don't want to take this

615
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: because I might have a bad reaction, right, Remember what

616
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 1: they said some of the setup was because they needed

617
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:48,919
Speaker 1: to screen you for certain things. I'm also curious though

618
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: they say things like it's going to increase your interest

619
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 1: in fantasy and imagination, and I want to know how

620
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: much more interested in fantasy and imagination I can get,

621
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: because I'm already pretty well down that rabbit hole. One

622
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: of the things that these researchers say is that when

623
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:06,920
Speaker 1: they take a look at it. It can help change

624
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: your personality if you're having personality problems, right that the

625
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 1: general idea is that personality is fixed after the age

626
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: of thirty, but with the help of psychedelics, you may

627
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: be able to overcome some you know, boundaries that you're

628
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: facing in that respect. And I just think that's interesting.

629
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: I've always just kind of anecdotally thought about it about

630
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: ten years later than that. Like pretty much everybody I know,

631
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: by the time they're forty, they are who they are

632
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: and they're going to be that way. I have not

633
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: seen anybody make any drastic changes, but it seems like

634
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: if they have really difficult emotional problems in life that

635
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 1: they're trying to get over, it seems like there's a

636
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: possibility here that if we were only able to study

637
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: this further, it might be an option for people like that. Yeah,

638
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:52,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess it's one of those things where

639
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, we we like, we may think of ourselves

640
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 1: a set in stone after a certain point, but but

641
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: we're not. We're not really. I mean, we know that

642
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: the mind is in memory is more malleable than that.

643
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: Uh So, psychedelics come in as a as a possible

644
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: means to loosen things up so that they can be reset. Uh.

645
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 1: And of course that being said, drugs are not the

646
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 1: only thing that I think that they can allow a

647
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: person to do that. I mean, sometimes something is simple,

648
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: is say travel, uh, new experiences, um, reading a book

649
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have otherwise read this sort of thing. Generally,

650
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: having a creative curiosity about life uh can can change

651
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: who you are. I think one of the interesting things

652
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 1: some of these studies of is that it makes you wonder, like,

653
00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: is the person that has administered the substance. Are they

654
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: this the kind of person that is not a novelty seeker?

655
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,400
Speaker 1: They're not. They don't seek out new experiences otherwise. Like

656
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: maybe that's the kind of individual for whom some potential

657
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: future treatment would be best used. Like somebody who's who

658
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: really can't shake some thing negative in their life. Uh.

659
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: And they have a pretty established routine if how things are,

660
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: But at the same time they recognize that there's something

661
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: about that routine that is dysfunctional for them or for

662
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: the world around. Yeah, there's some sort of cycle that

663
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: needs to be broken. Uh, there's something that needs to

664
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: be you know, just pulled apart so it can be

665
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 1: put back together. In a slightly different form. Yeah, yeah,

666
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: I think that's a good way to approach it. So

667
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: why don't we take another break, and then when we

668
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: get back, we're gonna officially dive into the Leary stuff,

669
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 1: and we're gonna start right at the beginning. Thank thank Alright,

670
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: we're back. Okay, So we're gonna talk about Timothy Leary

671
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 1: for the rest of this episode and then into the

672
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: next episode as well. Uh, you know, we're gonna start

673
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,400
Speaker 1: at the beginning because I think a lot of the

674
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: stuff that happens on early on in his life is

675
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: going to be key. And it's interesting when we talk

676
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:52,880
Speaker 1: about this in terms of like, at what point is

677
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: someone's personality set? At what point is somebody's destiny kind

678
00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: of set? Well, according to Robert Greenfield, who wrote to

679
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: Timothy Learry a biography, yeah you can. You can sort

680
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: of see a lot of that in Leary's early life.

681
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: So he was born October ninety and Springfield, Massachusetts to

682
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: an Irish Catholic family. His father with a stroll as

683
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: a struggling dentist, and his mother was a working mother.

684
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: That's my neck of the woods, Stoffield, Massachusetts. Yeah, my

685
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,839
Speaker 1: uncle works there. It's just my whole family is from

686
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 1: the western part of that state. So I have a

687
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: very clear picture in my head now of what his

688
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: his young upbringing was like. So, according to Greenfield's biography,

689
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: you can really attribute a lot of learies rebel rebellious

690
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:43,000
Speaker 1: spirit to his relationship with his father Tote, an alcoholic

691
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: who brought imbalance to the home and depended on charity

692
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: from family loans to prop up his struggling dental practice.

693
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 1: And now the young Tim Larry you know, occasionally stood

694
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: up to his father, but was also forced to hide

695
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: from him on the roof on some occasions, and then

696
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: total left the family when Tim was on fourteen UH,

697
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: leaving him to find solace in books about mythic heroes

698
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: and UH legends, and he was determined to become something better,

699
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 1: greater than his father, and his mother obsessed as well

700
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: over her her child's future, like how can I engineer

701
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: uh somebody for success? And so Greenfield argues that we

702
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: see the seeds of Leary's relationships with authority figures throughout

703
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 1: his life, you know, pinpointed in his early life as

704
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: well as his relationships with women. He would go through

705
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: periods of finding structure within an within an institution, but

706
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: would ultimately rebel against its order, and in times of

707
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:40,320
Speaker 1: distress he'd seek out women and for positive father figures.

708
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: He turned to UH, not to his own father, of course,

709
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: but to a flamboyant and sometimes dramatic family members. And

710
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: he depended on the emotional and financial support UH first

711
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: of all of his mother and UH and in Greenfield

712
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: identifies a pattern of his leaving most of them along

713
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,320
Speaker 1: the way. Yeah. I mean, I think like one of

714
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: the off whole themes that we're going to notice by

715
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: the time we get to the end of this two

716
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: parter is that he left a a wake behind him

717
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: of either abused people or dead people. I mean, well,

718
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 1: we're gonna get into it. Yeah. There are a number

719
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: of self destructive tendencies in Timothy Learry's life, al right.

720
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: So in terms of his his school and his essentially

721
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: pre psychedelics career, UH Learry attended classical high school alongside

722
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: American author, a biographer and historian William Manchester. Somebody might

723
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: be a familiar with him from a world lit only

724
00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: by fire The Medieval Mind and the Renaissance, which is

725
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: an excellent book. And he also went to the same

726
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 1: school as a Theodore Geisel or Dr Seuss. He went

727
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: to the College of Holy Cross and Worcester, uh is

728
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: a strict Catholic school that of course inspired rebellion from Larry.

729
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: He made money gambling on sports. He frequently hopped the

730
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: wall with other adventure seekers in or Or to go

731
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: out drinking in town and chase girls. My father from Worcester.

732
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: So also, like this is like connecting the dots. So

733
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: to give you an idea here if if you're not

734
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: familiar with messages at all, Springfields in the western part

735
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,320
Speaker 1: of the state, Worcester sort of in the middle, but

736
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: between Springfield and Boston. So it's not I mean, it's

737
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: like forty five minutes probably from where he grew up.

738
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: All right, Well, the next place we're going on the

739
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: map here for Leary is west Point, and this is

740
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: where he initially just goes all in on the culture

741
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: of West Point. He wrote, according to the Greenfield, he's

742
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 1: writing back to his mom with just the maximum amount

743
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,360
Speaker 1: of west Point lingo you can possibly use. And this

744
00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,239
Speaker 1: is telling to like he'll start off really into a

745
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: culture and then he rebels, and indeed he does. He

746
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: returns to his old ways, even faces a court martial

747
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:51,200
Speaker 1: for drunken behavior. He's acquitted, but then he ends up

748
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: facing what's known as the silence, or was known as

749
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: the silence. This was a policy that Australized cadets who

750
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: broke the honor code, and this was discontinued in seventy three.

751
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 1: And Uh. He ultimately ends up resigning and is honorably

752
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: discharged by the army. Then he applies to colleges across America.

753
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 1: The University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa accepted in first, so

754
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 1: that's where he went. He met Dr Donald Angus Ramsdell,

755
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: a Harvard psychology PhD, a man who Leary would later

756
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 1: refer to as Dr d which I found that interesting

757
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: given our episodes on the real Doctor John Dyah. And Uh.

758
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 1: He soon immersed himself in the study of psychology and

759
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: in biology, and now having lost his draft de term deferment,

760
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 1: he enrolled in r OTC to avoid a draft. And

761
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: then he also ran a foul of the school here

762
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,240
Speaker 1: due to womanizing so much though the dean even accused

763
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 1: him of sullying quote the honor of Southern womanhood, and

764
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: he was expelled. Man like just from my point perspective

765
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 1: from you know, being from up in New England and

766
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: in the tooth thousands moving to the South into a

767
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 1: progressive southern city. I had a lot of culture shock.

768
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,839
Speaker 1: I'm trying to imagine what it was like for this guy,

769
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, all these years ago, Uh, just transitioning and

770
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: jumping around and getting into trouble and just really shaking

771
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: things up everywhere he went. Well, it's interesting. One of

772
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: the sort of side things in in Greenfield's biography that

773
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: he points out is that apparently at the time the

774
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 1: university in Tuscaloosa, you had these various liberal academics and

775
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: in many cases, um homosexual academics who had found sort

776
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: of a safe environment in which to thrive. So in

777
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: a in a sense like if Timothy Leary was going

778
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 1: to go to anywhere in the American South at that point,

779
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 1: Tuscaloose was probably one of the places to go. And

780
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: he did find people who who valued him and embraced him,

781
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 1: you know initially, but he wasn't quite able to to

782
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,839
Speaker 1: finish his his academic duties. Oh of course not now.

783
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: On the advice of Dr d he goes on to

784
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: a role in the univer of Illinois he lines up

785
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: work in the psychology department, and he eventually completes his

786
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: education at Tuscaloosa remotely. But uh yeah, it's one of

787
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: these situations where, um, you just see this pattern over

788
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: and over again. As Greenfield writes, a clear pattern in

789
00:45:19,120 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: his life had already emerged whenever Tim Leary began accepting

790
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: the kind of success for which he had been programmed

791
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: since birth by his mother, he would stop the process

792
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,239
Speaker 1: by indulging, just as his father had done before him,

793
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: in self destructive behavior. So Leary then goes on to

794
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 1: get his master's degree at the University of Washington. We're

795
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,319
Speaker 1: talking about Washington State now, So he's already jumped from

796
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: New England to Alabama, to Illinois, and now up to

797
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: Washington State. He received his doctorate in psychology in nineteen

798
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: fifty from the University of California at Berkeley. So then

799
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: he jumps down to California. Here he decided that conventional

800
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: psychotherapy was useless and he began experimenting with group therapy

801
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: and transactional analysis. So this gives you an idea of

802
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 1: like where he was that sort of academically disciplined wise

803
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 1: before he was introduced to psychedelics. His first wife, Mary Anne,

804
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: committed suicide during this time. This was in nineteen fifty five.

805
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 1: This left him to raise their two children alone. We

806
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: have more on this obviously. Yeah, this was just a

807
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,880
Speaker 1: real sad situation for a number of reasons. But basically,

808
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: uh he he and Mary Anne had a very open relationship.

809
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but also just a chaotic relationship, but just

810
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: a lot of according to to Greenfield's account in the biography,

811
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: just a lot of negative vibes in this uh, in

812
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 1: this relationship, a lot was not working. Leary was apparently

813
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: looking to end the relationship in the very near future anyway,

814
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: and then she committed suicide and it was It's not

815
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:56,320
Speaker 1: like Leary wasn't an unfeeling person like this had a

816
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 1: huge effect on him, like he would write about it,

817
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 1: just essentially a pit that he wasn't able to emerge

818
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: from emotionally, for you, for for decades even, and then

819
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,640
Speaker 1: you know, to to say nothing then of the children

820
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 1: as well. Now, the urban legend of this goes this

821
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: is what you know. I can't imagine how many articles

822
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: and books Robert and I read for this, but it

823
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 1: probably popped up in every single one of them. Is

824
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 1: that the night before they were having an argument about

825
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 1: their open relationship and about that he was in a

826
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,799
Speaker 1: relationship with a woman that he loved more than Mary

827
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: and his wife, and that she was upset about this

828
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 1: and she wanted him to break it off, and he

829
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: went into the bedroom and said, it's your problem, not mine,

830
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 1: and closed the door. When he woke up in the morning,

831
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 1: she was dead. She had suffocated herself in the garage

832
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 1: inside the family car. Yeah. In Greenfield's account, he he

833
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 1: kind of points to the different versions of the story,

834
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,399
Speaker 1: so like there's the there's like a slightly different version

835
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: that he that he tells the authorities and then he

836
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 1: writes about later, and you know, you can sort of

837
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,040
Speaker 1: try to find the truth between all of these. Uh uh.

838
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just a really ugly situation with an

839
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: ugly ending it is, but it's also, unfortunately, I think,

840
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 1: an important sign of things to come with this guy

841
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 1: and and sort of where his priorities were, right. Uh.

842
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: And I don't want to end this this episode because

843
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 1: we're about to wrap up our first part here, but

844
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: I don't want to end it on such a super downer. Uh.

845
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: He went on afterwards to teach at Berkeley and he

846
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: actually was the director of psychological research at the Kaiser

847
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,959
Speaker 1: Foundation Hospital in Oakland, California, from nineteen fifty five until

848
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight. Now, during this period, uh, after his

849
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,480
Speaker 1: wife's suicide, Uh, he he also ends up going to

850
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: uh to Europe a few times. He goes to Spain,

851
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: he goes to Italy, and uh, this is kind of key.

852
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 1: There was this, um, there was this period of time

853
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: when he was when he was in Spain and he

854
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 1: suddenly experienced this some sort of mysterious illness, so swelling pain. Uh.

855
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 1: He was attended to buy a Danish doctor and he

856
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: ends up passing this night in misery, ends up sending

857
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: the kids to stay with another couple of of of

858
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: Americans were staying close by, and he says, he said

859
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: that he felt like he died during this time, that

860
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: he that he let go and they put the past

861
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 1: behind him. But you know, in a very interesting way,

862
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: it was kind of his first psychedelic experience, like a

863
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: taste of this altered state as a you know, not

864
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: to be confused with all the times he'd gotten just

865
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,800
Speaker 1: blindly drunk in the past, because he had previously and

866
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: for a lot of his life, had a severe alcohol problem.

867
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: But it's it's shortly after that too, that Frank Baron,

868
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: who was who was a colleague from Berkeley. Uh. He

869
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: he visited Leary during an unproductive stay in Florence, Italy.

870
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: He was always going on these trips to try and

871
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: you know, to to write various things. And at this

872
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: point Barren told him that during his research into creativity

873
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,120
Speaker 1: he had interviewed a psychiatrist who had used matt Aig

874
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 1: mushrooms to produce visions and trances, and that Baron had

875
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 1: tried them as well, resulting in a mystical transcendental insight. Now,

876
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, Leary warned him that he might lose his

877
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 1: scientific credibility to be babbled on about this sort of thing. Um,

878
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,919
Speaker 1: And that, my friends, is what we call foreshadowing. Yes,

879
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: so in the next episode we will get into the

880
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: psychedelic experience of of Leary, basically one continuous psychedelic experience

881
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 1: that lasted his entire life and uh basically dragged American

882
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 1: culture with Yeah, please make sure that you tune into

883
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 1: that second part. It's got a lot more of the

884
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 1: juicy details of Timothy Leary's life and the science and

885
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: research that he did into LSD and psilocybin. If you

886
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,840
Speaker 1: want to reach out to us about this episode and

887
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: any of the stuff we brought up today regarding LSD

888
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: research or possibly Timothy Leary's history, you can always get

889
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: us on social media. We're on Facebook, we're on Twitter,

890
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 1: we're on tumbler, and we are on Instagram. And if

891
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 1: you want to get into was the old fashioned way,

892
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: just shoot us an email at blow the Mind at

893
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and

894
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot

895
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:18,279
Speaker 1: com