Speaker 1: The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
Speaker 1: themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
Speaker 1: because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
Speaker 1: He just walked around shot all the black people. The
Speaker 1: cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
Speaker 1: out how to go on and how to compete. I
Speaker 1: wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Speaker 1: Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
Speaker 1: I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
Speaker 1: a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
Speaker 1: to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Speaker 1: Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
Speaker 1: I would call him and I would say, I know
Speaker 1: you killed my sister. You can listen to The Girlfriends
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart Podcasts and Nomadic Engine. The acclaimed
Speaker 1: dramatic thriller returns after Shock season two. He's like a ghost.
Speaker 1: We had an agreement to keep each other's secret. None
Speaker 1: of you are making decisions to keep the rest of
Speaker 1: us safe, which leaves me. I'm asking for your forgiveness.
Speaker 1: After Shock season two, starring Sarah Wayne Kelly's, David Harbor
Speaker 1: and Jeffrey Dean Morgan listened to after Shock on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts? Hi,
Speaker 1: I'm free and I'm rthy. We have spent the last
Speaker 1: twenty years building and working at some of the largest
Speaker 1: companies in the world. We worked with some remarkable people.
Speaker 1: Rob mclenny. When I see the people of Wrexham, I
Speaker 1: grew up exactly like them. Check out the art in
Speaker 1: Trurom show. That is a R D HI and s
Speaker 1: R I R a M show. Listen to the arc
Speaker 1: the Inustry I'm Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast Oh,
Speaker 1: wherever you get to your podcast? Hey, No Billy sees
Speaker 1: something like ed Yeah, we're convansoning ads like in sealteen six.
Speaker 1: When are they going to point to George being part
Speaker 1: of this conspiracy? Hannah replies, I won't sign papers ever.
Speaker 1: It won't happen. They will have to kill me first.
Speaker 1: This is the Piked and Massacre Return to Pike County
Speaker 1: Season four, episode twelve, Closing in on the Wagners. I'm
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at KATI Studios with Stephanie
Speaker 1: Lydecker and Jeff Shane. It's the middle of George Wagner
Speaker 1: the Fourth trial. It's important to note that George Wagner
Speaker 1: the Fourth, along with his father Billy Wagner, whose trial
Speaker 1: is upcoming, deny any wrongdoing and have pleaded not guilty
Speaker 1: to all charges. So far, there's been hours of testimony
Speaker 1: by investigators and relatives that have painted a very real
Speaker 1: portrait of what the crime scenes look like. But while
Speaker 1: prosecutors have laid out the grizzly details of the murderers,
Speaker 1: they have yet to connect George Wagner the Fourth to
Speaker 1: the killings. We're stake side of the case is to
Speaker 1: stay ready to call another witness. Special Prosecutor and jaw
Speaker 1: Kineppa call Special Agent John Jenkins of the Ohio Bureau
Speaker 1: of Criminal Investigations more commonly known as the BCI. Jenkins
Speaker 1: sports a trimmed goatee and looks every bit the veteran
Speaker 1: investigator he is. In twenty sixteen, just four months after
Speaker 1: the brutal murders, Jenkins interviewed the Wagner family's father, Billy.
Speaker 1: You can find Billy Wagner's raw audio of his conversation
Speaker 1: with special agents on our Apple Plus True Crime subscription.
Speaker 1: Page to that page is included in this episode's description.
Speaker 1: But today's attention turned to a police interview with the
Speaker 1: defendant's father, Billy Wagner. He was best friends with one
Speaker 1: of the victims, Chris Roden. I mean his interview, he
Speaker 1: provide some insights that could not only help the prosecution,
Speaker 1: but could also be useful for the defense. BCI agents
Speaker 1: had spent months trying to speak to Billy Wagner. Jenkins
Speaker 1: testified that Wagner seemed to be avoiding them. We want
Speaker 1: to talk to him because of the fact of his
Speaker 1: relationship with and Hannah, but also weird started to at
Speaker 1: this time get tips and leaves that there might have
Speaker 1: been some issues with some custody reference and that task
Speaker 1: became difficult due to the fact that when we stopped
Speaker 1: by the house, Billy wasn't always there. In September of
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, BCI agents finally checked down Billy Wagner outside
Speaker 1: a grocery store. It was this interview with Billy Wagner recording. Yes,
Speaker 1: it was audio recorded. If this time you runner, I
Speaker 1: would like to play that recording for the journey. I
Speaker 1: just want to talk with you about the road murders, okay,
Speaker 1: and so, um, you know, we've been out talking with people,
Speaker 1: you know, all kinds of you know, tips get called
Speaker 1: in our office and all that, and so your name
Speaker 1: has come up and you know, and tips and things
Speaker 1: like that. So we just want to tie I find
Speaker 1: whatever you want to. Just be honest with us. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you whatever I can do to help get out.
Speaker 1: As the audio recordings began, Jenkins, wearing a blue blazer
Speaker 1: and white shirt, lowered his head and sat listening to
Speaker 1: the conversation. Billy Wagner was first asked about his relationship
Speaker 1: with Chris Roden Senior. Wagner insisted he and victim Chris
Speaker 1: Rodin were very close. You know, Chris was my best friend,
Speaker 1: all right, man, how you know we run around all
Speaker 1: the time. But we want to talk about career. Chris
Speaker 1: don't talk. He didn't tell nobody nothing. He gave me
Speaker 1: the business to himself. And I want to take you
Speaker 1: straight up. I don't care what he done. He was
Speaker 1: my friend. He he done everything for me. Okay, you know,
Speaker 1: and Chris growed up hard, I mean scroubs for everything.
Speaker 1: He had worked his ass off and he worked every day.
Speaker 1: You know, his shit. They're making him out look at
Speaker 1: some damn big gangsters, a bunch of shit. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: And now I wanted to talk with the other thing.
Speaker 1: You know, he wasn't no saying, I say, but Chris
Speaker 1: never hurt nobody. I'll tell you whatever I can do
Speaker 1: to help get out. And we're not concerned about anything
Speaker 1: other than the murders. So you know, we've talked with
Speaker 1: different people. Different people have different involvement. You know. You
Speaker 1: know you've you've read the paper. Uh, you know you've
Speaker 1: seen the news. I'm not worried about all that. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you whatever you need to know. Okay. I'm just saying,
Speaker 1: you know, there was gross down I'm want to take
Speaker 1: us off and no, right off the bat that you
Speaker 1: didn't know Chris a right. Most of the shit they're
Speaker 1: talking about it with a bunch of bullshit life. I mean,
Speaker 1: Chris he'd give you the shirt off. He's well, we've
Speaker 1: heard that, you know. He you know, he was absolutely
Speaker 1: you know, we're what nobody else like him? Oh, Chris,
Speaker 1: like I said, he is my best friend. Wagner also
Speaker 1: said he and Chris Rodin had spoken the night he
Speaker 1: was killed. Last time my talk came and he's saying,
Speaker 1: go all right, was the night before all happened, and
Speaker 1: I said, hey, man, I'll folk he's more. And then
Speaker 1: next morning, you know, all hell broke. Los BCI agents
Speaker 1: asked Wagner who he thought committed the murderers. Billy Wagner
Speaker 1: floated the possibility that Chris Roden Senior might have vowed
Speaker 1: money to drug dealers. I ain't a bunch of hell
Speaker 1: billys do something like that. And well, you know, sorry,
Speaker 1: never convinced me. You know, hat's like some fielteen to six. Okay,
Speaker 1: but your bottom feeding funds pitches right, Well yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: your bottom feeders. I mean every damn one up. I
Speaker 1: mean they're on that freaking ship. And I mean it
Speaker 1: killed r Dan Braham off the five up. Sure, and
Speaker 1: you know I hold Chrid, you know, got to fuck
Speaker 1: you know, shouldn't suck around fact shit you know, because
Speaker 1: it just and it ain't too much. You know who cared?
Speaker 1: You know what happens to the dumb ass it's doing it,
Speaker 1: but you know it's a ship that they did. Investigators
Speaker 1: again press Billy Wagner about his relationship with victim Chris
Speaker 1: Roden Senior, specifically if they'd gotten into a fight a
Speaker 1: few weeks prior to the murders. We had heard, uh,
Speaker 1: someone had called and said and then listen, I'm not
Speaker 1: trying to I don't care. I don't care what you heard.
Speaker 1: What are you play it on me? Day? Is that
Speaker 1: you or Chris actually got into a fight about a
Speaker 1: week or two prior to the murders and said that
Speaker 1: you'd pulled a gun on him. No, absolutely not, didn't happen.
Speaker 1: Good nap, Okay, Well, no, it's just saying that you've
Speaker 1: got into an argument with now and then you sort
Speaker 1: of then you pulled a gun on him now and
Speaker 1: you said, yeah, I don't care anything about Chris. Throughout
Speaker 1: the nearly two hour conversa station, Wagner tried repeatedly to
Speaker 1: shift the investigator's attention away from himself and his family.
Speaker 1: You're looking in the wrong damn direction. You need to
Speaker 1: be going to every way. At one point, Billy Wagner
Speaker 1: even mentioned he'd heard Hannah Rodin was seeing a sheriff
Speaker 1: and said someone had seen a sheriff's car parked on
Speaker 1: Union Hill Road. Somebody said that she was singing a
Speaker 1: deput sheriff up here in Waverley. I don't know who
Speaker 1: he is, and he every time I heard that there
Speaker 1: was a sheriff sitting at the end of Union Hill
Speaker 1: all night. So I don't know if that's I don't know,
Speaker 1: but that's just what I heard. Later, when agents mentioned
Speaker 1: the marijuana growing on Chris Roden's property, Billy Wagner denied
Speaker 1: any involvement in the drug business. Now, other people have
Speaker 1: told us that they thought that you and Chris were
Speaker 1: business partners. No, now, if Chris you know now, I
Speaker 1: don't bullshit Chris. I don't care what Chris asked me
Speaker 1: to do. Yeah, if he asked me to do something,
Speaker 1: I'm good for him because he'd do anything for me, right,
Speaker 1: you know, he You just don't you don't want You
Speaker 1: can understand that, I understand if you know for he
Speaker 1: well me Christmas, you know, like I said, we're daylight
Speaker 1: dark all right, But well, you know pretty much. You know,
Speaker 1: if he want to go do something, we go. If
Speaker 1: I want to go do something, he can go with me.
Speaker 1: You know, it didn't matter. So but so you never
Speaker 1: hold any weed for him? No, No, I hold a
Speaker 1: lot of cars for him, hauld a lot of cars,
Speaker 1: like would you hold him round go down drear down
Speaker 1: there and co parks and get him for him and
Speaker 1: bring him up. Investigators returned to rumors of illegal drugs
Speaker 1: and a possible drug deal that Chris Roden Senior was
Speaker 1: potentially involved with, and who Billy Wagner alleged might have
Speaker 1: had a reason to kill Chris Roden Senior. It's important
Speaker 1: to note that George Wagner's allegations against Skid Montgomery are
Speaker 1: not substantiated. Here's Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa picking up her
Speaker 1: questioning of h and J. Nkins. There's talk in during
Speaker 1: that conversation between you and mister Wagner, and he keeps
Speaker 1: referring to a person named Latham. Yes, that's correct, and
Speaker 1: can you tell us who Latham is? Sure? So that
Speaker 1: during that interview, mister Wagner, as you've heard, but would
Speaker 1: keep referring to an individual name La Latham and basically
Speaker 1: who he was referring to as an individual named Skid Montgomery.
Speaker 1: Skid Montgomery lives in around the Lathamrea owns a lot
Speaker 1: of property in the in the Pike County area, and
Speaker 1: we'd learned through the investigation that there was always rumor
Speaker 1: that Skid Montgomery was a big, large scale marijuana dealer
Speaker 1: and that he would put hits out on people and
Speaker 1: especial agent Jenkins obviously, Billy talked to you about an
Speaker 1: alleged business deal where Chris was expected to get a
Speaker 1: large chunk of marijuana and indicated that it would represent
Speaker 1: a lot of money and they would put people out
Speaker 1: of business. Correct, that's correct, Okay, and specifically indicated that
Speaker 1: he felt that that would be upsetting to Latham slash
Speaker 1: Skid mcgomy. That's correct. Yes, here's Stephanie and Jeff. It's
Speaker 1: very compelling to hear the voice of accused father Billy Wagner.
Speaker 1: Hearing this interview that has been spoken about so often
Speaker 1: was fascinating. Some people say that he was rambling in
Speaker 1: this interview and trying to lead investigators in a different
Speaker 1: direction and throw some tidbits at them to get them
Speaker 1: off his track, but frankly, in listening to it, I
Speaker 1: thought he felt pretty common cooperative. He was just being
Speaker 1: stopped outside of a grocery store and cut two. He's
Speaker 1: in a two hour interview. Based on what we've heard
Speaker 1: about the Wagger's movements after the murders, I think it
Speaker 1: stands to reason that they probably weren't anticipating talking to
Speaker 1: law enforcement at some point and probably had a bit
Speaker 1: of a script or a plan for when that did happen.
Speaker 1: I mean, because Billy very quickly was throwing out unsubstantiated
Speaker 1: rumors about nineteen year old victim Hannah may Or, pointing
Speaker 1: away from himself towards the GROW operation and even bringing
Speaker 1: up Skid Montgomery like he already had a litany of
Speaker 1: things that he was going to kind of try to
Speaker 1: throw at the police to get the scent off of
Speaker 1: him and his family. Interesting that you should say that,
Speaker 1: because yes, you're right. On the one hand, he's saying
Speaker 1: that Chris Senior was his very best friend and he
Speaker 1: would do anything for him, and that Chris would do
Speaker 1: anything for him, and to your point, on the other hand,
Speaker 1: he's essentially throwing him under the bus by pointing to
Speaker 1: the Grow operation and denying that there was ever a
Speaker 1: big fight between them regarding custody and kind of bringing
Speaker 1: him again back to Skid Montgomery. Even just hearing the
Speaker 1: name Latham aka Skid Montgomery, and it legitimately makes the
Speaker 1: hairs in the back of my next stand up because
Speaker 1: we've been given this name so many times, both from
Speaker 1: listeners and people in and around the area. And again,
Speaker 1: Skid Montgomery is a very prominent landowner in Pike County
Speaker 1: and now here's Billy basically accusing him. Is this just
Speaker 1: Billy getting him off his tracks, or is it possible
Speaker 1: that there are some truth to that. I have to
Speaker 1: assume that we're going to hear from Skid Montgomery at
Speaker 1: some point, and that he'll be a witness. I also
Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that Billy says there was a
Speaker 1: sheriff at the bottom of the road that whole night
Speaker 1: that he had heard rumors of. That is he referring
Speaker 1: to Sheriff Reader, And if so, I also have to
Speaker 1: assume that Sheriff Reader at some point will testify at
Speaker 1: this trial because his name comes up all the time,
Speaker 1: and as we know, he's currently serving time for unrelated
Speaker 1: charges for taking drug money illegally and using it for gambling,
Speaker 1: again completely unrelated. Nobody has associated him with these murders,
Speaker 1: but again these names keep coming up. Well stuff. This
Speaker 1: is certainly an interesting preview of the trial to come,
Speaker 1: as we know Billy Wagner has pled not guilty and
Speaker 1: as a waiting trial, and so this is maybe just
Speaker 1: a little bit of a sneak peek at his upcoming
Speaker 1: legal proceedings. Also, even just him saying that me and
Speaker 1: Chris were best friends and that we were like daylight
Speaker 1: and dark. I thought that would have such a curious statement,
Speaker 1: which one does he see himself as. Despite efforts to
Speaker 1: shift the focus away from himself and his family, investigators
Speaker 1: walked away from their conversation with Billy Wagner with more
Speaker 1: questions than answers. Here's legal analyst Mike Allen. He didn't
Speaker 1: help himself listening to it. I really don't know what
Speaker 1: he was trying to do. I mean, obviously he was
Speaker 1: trying to shift the focus away from him and his family.
Speaker 1: I don't think he was very successful with it. That
Speaker 1: happens all the time. These people, some of them, they
Speaker 1: deceived themselves into thinking that, you know, they're the smartest
Speaker 1: criminal in the world. And you know they'll say, well,
Speaker 1: if I say this to the police, or if I
Speaker 1: say something else to the police, there, that'll throw him
Speaker 1: off the trail. Doesn't happen. We're going to take a break.
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher,
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. Back in
Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us
Speaker 1: dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke
Speaker 1: several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish.
Speaker 1: He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
Speaker 1: He shouted to the point she went unconscious. Bob could
Speaker 1: lie about anything, but only takes the one time when
Speaker 1: somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends know
Speaker 1: how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for
Speaker 1: his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll
Speaker 1: be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
Speaker 1: I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
Speaker 1: would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
Speaker 1: always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
Speaker 1: The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glabell here, host
Speaker 1: of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and the
Speaker 1: misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our ongoing
Speaker 1: obsessive campaign to blow up the world's most focus college
Speaker 1: ranking system. Why not just throw in a few extras
Speaker 1: or witness me after years of fancy public speaking, learning
Speaker 1: that I kind of have to start over. The tone
Speaker 1: that you had throughout the debate was very similar to
Speaker 1: some of the students that I do work with, and
Speaker 1: that's what I teach them not to do. We're making
Speaker 1: more revisionist history for you this year than ever from
Speaker 1: places all across this great country emergency rooms, huge theaters,
Speaker 1: small towns, and shooting righteous and you want to put
Speaker 1: your thumb up like the US. Are you gonna pull
Speaker 1: the trigger with this finger here? Okay? Listen to Revisionist
Speaker 1: History on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts from iHeart podcasts. Whitney, Hell is going
Speaker 1: on here? Everyone has their limits. I never confronted a
Speaker 1: situation like this. I just thought it was just a
Speaker 1: really terrible immoral thing align they won't cross. I was stunned.
Speaker 1: And I just said, no, we're killing people. You may
Speaker 1: never have to face that decision when you find yourself
Speaker 1: at that line out ricin ars ricin, and somebody needs
Speaker 1: to just for once give everybody the whole truth. I'm like,
Speaker 1: this is evil and the only person who can sound
Speaker 1: the alarm is you. I wasn't just going to sit silently.
Speaker 1: Buy from iHeart Podcasts. These are the whistleblowers. If you
Speaker 1: are disloyal thinks are going to happen to this week
Speaker 1: out disgrace to our gun. Evil place should be prosecute.
Speaker 1: When power corrupts, conscience is the last line of defense.
Speaker 1: I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name's
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista, and host of
Speaker 1: The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember my award winning
Speaker 1: first season. I've been pretty busy. There's always time to
Speaker 1: touch incredible about important things. People like me have been
Speaker 1: screaming for years. We've got to watch the Supreme Court.
Speaker 1: What they're doing is wrong, what they're doing is evil.
Speaker 1: They will take things away and I can only hope
Speaker 1: that Dobbs is that like Pearl Harbor moment, girl, you
Speaker 1: and I both know what it took to just get
Speaker 1: through the day in New York City and get home
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Speaker 1: and what you've achieved and what I've achieved, you know,
Speaker 1: that's momentous. It's not just sitting around complaining about some bills.
Speaker 1: The only reason that you might think, as Chase said,
Speaker 1: that we're always miserable is because people are constantly attacking
Speaker 1: us and we're constantly noticing it. Listen to the Laverne
Speaker 1: Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcast. Be sure to subscribe and share.
Speaker 1: The investigative trail was beginning to point directly to the
Speaker 1: Wagner family, though not necessarily to defendant George Wagner. Here's
Speaker 1: longtime investigative reporter James Pilcher and Cincinnati Now with Local twelve.
Speaker 1: When are they going to point to George being part
Speaker 1: of this conspiracy? Because none of the physical evidence that
Speaker 1: they presented early on had any of the Wagners to
Speaker 1: any of these crime scenes. Outside the courtroom, questions were
Speaker 1: being asked about the prosecution's ability to link George Wagner
Speaker 1: to the murders. That to me is the major issue here, right.
Speaker 1: I've been going for days in this trial, lots of evidence,
Speaker 1: lots of witnesses, but honestly, we have yet to hear
Speaker 1: any connection of George the fourth to these crimes. Following
Speaker 1: Special Agent John Jenkins testimony, the defense requested for the
Speaker 1: third time in the trial there should be a mistrial.
Speaker 1: The defense argued the tapes of Special Agent jenkins interview
Speaker 1: with Billy Wagner should never have been played before the jury.
Speaker 1: The defense argued the tapes had nothing to do with
Speaker 1: George Wagner and that the interview did not establish any
Speaker 1: proof of a CONSPI years to commit aggravated murder. Special
Speaker 1: Prosecutor Angiekuneppa said that wasn't why the state played the
Speaker 1: interview with Billy Wagner at his son George's trial. Instead,
Speaker 1: she wanted the jury to see how BCI investigators ended
Speaker 1: up focusing on the Wagner family. Of course, he's a
Speaker 1: really emotions previously made on the record for miss trial
Speaker 1: and to include the tape or to strike the tape,
Speaker 1: is defense council and the state ready to bring the
Speaker 1: jury up. Judge during ruled against the motion for a mistrial,
Speaker 1: and the prosecution called for the second time. BCI analyst
Speaker 1: Julia Evislage. The agent has long brown hair and is
Speaker 1: wearing a maroon red jacket. Evislage is sworn in and
Speaker 1: questioned by Special Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa. Good afternoon. How are
Speaker 1: you good afternoon? If you want to go ahead and
Speaker 1: state your name again just for the record, Julia Evislage, okay,
Speaker 1: And you previously testified in this case. Correct, that's correct, okay.
Speaker 1: And we've already discussed with you your current role at
Speaker 1: the Bureau of Criminal Investigations and your work in this case,
Speaker 1: specifically in analyzing records and other things that came that
Speaker 1: were obtained personnant to both subpoenas and search warrants. Correct, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: And can you tell us when you go through records
Speaker 1: and such, is that information that you then share with
Speaker 1: the investigative team, yes, okay, and in your experiences that
Speaker 1: then inform their investigation in people that they're willing in
Speaker 1: or willing out. Yes, okay. And can you tell us,
Speaker 1: miss visual agent in this case, did you guys obtain
Speaker 1: Facebook records of the victims. Yes. One of our cyber
Speaker 1: crimes agents obtained a search warrant for all of the
Speaker 1: Facebook accounts of the victims, and we review those once
Speaker 1: the responses came in from Facebook. On the screen above evislage,
Speaker 1: prosecutors pull up a spreadsheet of messages taken from Hannah
Speaker 1: Roden's Facebook account. Each entry is labeled with the time
Speaker 1: and date of the exchange. During that review of those
Speaker 1: Facebook records, did you find information in the Facebook account
Speaker 1: belonging to Hannah May Roden? Yes? And can you tell
Speaker 1: us why were they noteworthy to you? When we first
Speaker 1: started looking at Hannah's Facebook, we found some statements in
Speaker 1: there and some of her messages that seemed to be
Speaker 1: in direct conflict with things that we had heard and interviews,
Speaker 1: particularly with Jake Wagner's interview, and we noted just different
Speaker 1: different statements about abuse in the relationship, issues with the
Speaker 1: Wagner's being controlling, things like that, and then just her
Speaker 1: kind of sense of discomfort with the situation with the
Speaker 1: custody of Okay and fears that they were trying to
Speaker 1: take here again Stephanie and Jeff. Last episode, we heard,
Speaker 1: among others, Tabitha Clayton, George Wagner's ex wife's testimony and
Speaker 1: her correspondence between Hannah May Rodin and herself before she
Speaker 1: was murdered. Well, yeah, what's interesting about this is the
Speaker 1: messages between Hannah May and Tabitha, Georgia's ex wife talk
Speaker 1: about the fears of losing custody and the Wagner family
Speaker 1: making the young women signed documents that they don't want
Speaker 1: to be signed, kind of basically being coerced into signing.
Speaker 1: Attempted guardianship fraud was uncovered in the Pine County murder trial.
Speaker 1: Take a closer look at your screen here. I want
Speaker 1: to show you something that's on that document. At the
Speaker 1: bottom of it, you can see a u RL to
Speaker 1: a website and there's a date on the paper. It
Speaker 1: shows someone ripped this document off a Texas government website
Speaker 1: in April of twenty sixteen, the same month someone murdered
Speaker 1: Hannah May and seven of her family members. Investigators say
Speaker 1: they've found that in the Wagner's belongings. While the Wagner's
Speaker 1: told investigators there were no issues over custody of Jake
Speaker 1: and Hannah's daughter, analyst Julia Evislage pointed to additional Facebook
Speaker 1: messages that showed Hannah was scared of the Wagner's attempts
Speaker 1: to win custody of her daughter. One Facebook message stood out.
Speaker 1: It's the often spoken about conversation from December of twenty
Speaker 1: fifteen that was between Hannahme Roden and George Wagner, the
Speaker 1: Fourth's ex mother in law. It's where hannahme swears she
Speaker 1: will never sign papers to give up custody of her daughter.
Speaker 1: As for those Facebook messages to Hannah Wagner, one of
Speaker 1: those exchanges between Tabitha and Hannah Roden actually took place
Speaker 1: on the very day that Hannah Rodin was killed. Billy
Speaker 1: Wagner's interview and the Facebook messages showing the brewing custody
Speaker 1: battle between Hannah and Jake convinced investigators in late twenty
Speaker 1: sixteen they needed to shift their focus to the Wagner family.
Speaker 1: You need to investigate that. That's important. That's a lead,
Speaker 1: that's something that we ran down, especially Agent Ryan Scheiderer
Speaker 1: of the BCI led the two year investigation into the
Speaker 1: brutal killings. Scheiderer testified that he visited the Wagner's home
Speaker 1: on Peterson Road in May of twenty seventeen, just before
Speaker 1: the Wagners are set to move to Alaska. Here's Angie
Speaker 1: Kneppa speaking with Agent Scheiderer, who is on the stand.
Speaker 1: When you arrived, you said Jake and Angela and George
Speaker 1: were outside packing along as in a trailer. Did all
Speaker 1: three of those individuals remain outside, No, they did not.
Speaker 1: George excused himself on one side, and Jake and Angela
Speaker 1: remained outside. Yes, okay. And during that time did you
Speaker 1: observe anything in the driveway that was of interest to you? Yes? Why?
Speaker 1: Speaking with Angela and Jake, they were willing to speak
Speaker 1: with us. They didn't ask us to leave. I just
Speaker 1: casually observed there was numerous fired cartridge casnes about the driveway.
Speaker 1: All over the place. There was hundreds of months thousands
Speaker 1: of cartridges laying around casings. And can you tell us,
Speaker 1: a special agent scheider did you were you able to
Speaker 1: pick those items up and examine them closely? No? Okay?
Speaker 1: And were you able to tell from your vantage point
Speaker 1: not bending over and picking them up or examined them closely?
Speaker 1: Did any of them appear to be of interest? Yes?
Speaker 1: So the crime scenes, we were aware that there was
Speaker 1: a forty caliber used a forty caliber cartridge casing was
Speaker 1: found at one of the crime scenes you guys heard
Speaker 1: about that. We also knew that there was potentially a
Speaker 1: thirty caliber rifle that was used and twenty two long rifle.
Speaker 1: What I observed that day I saw cartridge casings that
Speaker 1: appeared to be from a rifle. They weren't like a
Speaker 1: twenty two caliber rifles, so they weren't twenty two room fires,
Speaker 1: but they definitely weren't like two two threes or five
Speaker 1: five sixes. I just couldn't tell what caliber they were.
Speaker 1: And then I also saw cartiage cases that were or
Speaker 1: casings that were consistent with pistol calibers. Specifically, to me,
Speaker 1: it looked like they were nine millimeters or forty caliber.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell from my vantage point. Obviously, I'm standing
Speaker 1: up and I did not examine them. And can you
Speaker 1: tell us? Was there also a conversation with Jake regarding
Speaker 1: various punishments for this kind of a crime. Yes. One
Speaker 1: of the one of the things that I like to do.
Speaker 1: When I'm talking to somebody that I suspect is involved
Speaker 1: in a crime I'm investigating, there's oftentimes I will ask
Speaker 1: that person, what do you think the appropriate punishment is
Speaker 1: for somebody that's accused of this crime to elicit their response.
Speaker 1: So I did ask him that, okay, and what was
Speaker 1: his response. It depended on whether or not they were
Speaker 1: a trigger person. Following the visit, investigators got a warrant
Speaker 1: to search the Wagner property and their cell phones. Among
Speaker 1: the many communications they found were text messages between George
Speaker 1: Wagner and his father, Billy. One message was sent while
Speaker 1: BCI investigators were at the Wagner's home. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us if you saw anything of interest on Billy's phone?
Speaker 1: There was interesting text messages from George. Message number four
Speaker 1: is an inbox, which means it's a message to Billy
Speaker 1: and it is from George, his son, and it says,
Speaker 1: don't come down till I text you got company. Here's Stephanie.
Speaker 1: None of this ties George Wagner to the crimes. I
Speaker 1: also thought it was interesting that when police arrived to
Speaker 1: their home and George went inside, and they later took
Speaker 1: Billy's phone and he had texted to George to stay inside.
Speaker 1: Was he protecting him from police? Was Jake protecting his
Speaker 1: brother when he said, what should happen to the people
Speaker 1: who committed this crime, and he said depends on who
Speaker 1: the trigger puller was. But again a strange answer retrospectively,
Speaker 1: since he has now taken a plea agreement saying that
Speaker 1: he was in fact a trigger puller, is that a
Speaker 1: way of protecting George? Because so far compelling as all
Speaker 1: of this is, none of it really does tie George
Speaker 1: to the crime. But Jake Wagner's phone included far more
Speaker 1: incriminating evidence. Once again, the messages were displayed on a
Speaker 1: large TV screen above the witness box. Did you also
Speaker 1: look at Jake's phone and did you find anything of
Speaker 1: interest on that phone? Yes? And can you tell us
Speaker 1: what you thought. One of the most interesting things that
Speaker 1: we found on Jake's phone at that time was under
Speaker 1: the note section, and it was a list of guns
Speaker 1: owned by the Wagners were purported to be. So basically,
Speaker 1: there's a list with each Wagner name and then a
Speaker 1: list of guns underneath each of those names. Jurors and
Speaker 1: Wagner's murder trial learned his brother Jake kept a list
Speaker 1: of guns that investigators think both men, along with their
Speaker 1: parents Billy and Angela owned on that list an SK
Speaker 1: seven six two by thirty nine and Accult nineteen eleven
Speaker 1: twenty two pistol. The search of the Wagner property also
Speaker 1: produced valuable evidence linking the Wagner's weapons to the murders.
Speaker 1: This included hundreds of shell casings from the Wagner family farm.
Speaker 1: BCI firearms expert Matthew White delivered what could turn out
Speaker 1: to be damning testimony in the State of Ohio's case
Speaker 1: against George Wagner. Today, let's stop here for another break.
Speaker 1: I'm Carol Fisher, and I'm hosting a podcast called The
Speaker 1: Girl Friends. Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: a few of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
Speaker 1: He's several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he
Speaker 1: was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
Speaker 1: He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she
Speaker 1: went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
Speaker 1: the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
Speaker 1: us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
Speaker 1: to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
Speaker 1: to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
Speaker 1: him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call
Speaker 1: him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
Speaker 1: I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
Speaker 1: listen to the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello, Malcolm Glabell here,
Speaker 1: host of Revisionist History, a show about the overlooked and
Speaker 1: the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else, like our
Speaker 1: ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world it's most
Speaker 1: focused college ranking system. Why not just throw in a
Speaker 1: few extra zeros or witness me after years of fancy
Speaker 1: public speaking, learning that I kind of have to start over.
Speaker 1: The tone that you had throughout the debate was very
Speaker 1: similar to some of the students that I do work with,
Speaker 1: and that's what I teach them not to do. We're
Speaker 1: making more revisionist history for you this year than ever
Speaker 1: from places all across this great country, emergency rooms, huge theaters,
Speaker 1: small towns, and shooting righteous and you want to put
Speaker 1: your thumb up like theos. Are you gonna pull the
Speaker 1: trigger with this finger? Here? Okay? Listen to Revisionist History
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts from iHeart podcasts, Whitney hell is going on here.
Speaker 1: Everyone has their limits. I'd never confronted a situation like this.
Speaker 1: I just thought it was just a really terrible, immoral thing.
Speaker 1: Aligned they won't cross. I was stunned, and I just said, no,
Speaker 1: we're killing people. You may never have to face that
Speaker 1: decision when you find yourself at that line. Thout ricin,
Speaker 1: arn't ricin, And somebody needs to just for once give
Speaker 1: everybody the whole truth, like this is evil and the
Speaker 1: only person who can sound the alarm is you. I
Speaker 1: wasn't just going to sit silently. Buy from iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: These are the whistleblowers. If you are disloyal, things are
Speaker 1: going to happen to speak out disgrace through our good.
Speaker 1: Evil po should be prosecuted when power corrupts. Conscience is
Speaker 1: the last line of defense. I'm Miles Taylor. Listen to
Speaker 1: the Whistleblowers on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. My name's Laverne Cox. I'm an actress, producer, fashionista,
Speaker 1: and host of The Laverne Cox Show. You may remember
Speaker 1: my award winning Verse season. I've been pretty busy. There's
Speaker 1: always time to touch incredible guests about important things. People
Speaker 1: like me have been screaming for years. We've got to
Speaker 1: watch the Supreme Court. What they're doing is wrong, what
Speaker 1: they're doing is evil. They will take things away. And
Speaker 1: I can only hope that Dobbs is that like Pearl
Speaker 1: Harbor moment. Girl, You and I both know what it
Speaker 1: took to just get through the day in New York
Speaker 1: City and get home in one piece. And so the
Speaker 1: fact that we're here and what you've achieved and what
Speaker 1: I've achieved, you know, that's momentous. It's not just sitting
Speaker 1: around complaining about some bills. The only reason that you
Speaker 1: might think, as Chase said, that we're always miserable, is
Speaker 1: because people are constantly attacking us and we're constantly noticing it.
Speaker 1: Listen to The Laverne Cox Show on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Be sure
Speaker 1: to subscribe and share. During Special Prosecutor Andy Wilson's questioning
Speaker 1: of BCI agent Matthew White, prosecutors showed hundreds of photos
Speaker 1: of shell casings on the overhead screen. Jurors were seen
Speaker 1: taking notes and at times sketching doodle drawings. During the
Speaker 1: long and often technical testimony. Were you able based on
Speaker 1: your knowledge, you're training, your experience, and the work that
Speaker 1: you had done in this case examining both the shell
Speaker 1: casings and the projectiles, were you able to wring you
Speaker 1: an opinion as to whether or not any guns listed
Speaker 1: on that list could have been responsible for the evidence
Speaker 1: recover pies from the scenes. I did, and could you
Speaker 1: tell the jury what that opinion was? I felt the
Speaker 1: most likely candidates for firearms that could have been used
Speaker 1: for the SKS seven sixty two by thirty nine and
Speaker 1: the CULT nineteen eleven twenty two pistol. But based on
Speaker 1: your review of this you determine that the SKAS seven
Speaker 1: six two by thirty nine and the COLT nineteen eleven
Speaker 1: twenty two could be contributors to the guns that were used.
Speaker 1: It could be the guns that were used in this case. Yes,
Speaker 1: are that is correct? Matthewitt was also asked if any
Speaker 1: of the shell casings found on the Wagner's property matched
Speaker 1: any of the cartridge casings collected at the crime scenes
Speaker 1: and when you did those comparisons, were you able to
Speaker 1: a reasonable degree of scientific certainty to reach a conclusion
Speaker 1: as to whether or not those exhibits that were recovered
Speaker 1: from Peterson Road were fired from the same firearm that
Speaker 1: fired the shell casings recovered from scene two Scene three.
Speaker 1: I was and can you tell the jury what that
Speaker 1: opinion was. I saw my microsoftic comparison of the two
Speaker 1: fire twenty too long rifle cartridge cases compared to the
Speaker 1: other fired twenty too long rifle cartridge cases. I was
Speaker 1: able to conclude that all of the fired twenty two
Speaker 1: long rifle cartridge cases had been fired in the same firearm.
Speaker 1: The defense, however, tried to blunt the testimony linking the
Speaker 1: Wagner's family's weapons to the murder scenes. The cross examination
Speaker 1: lasted less than ten seconds. You don't know who fired
Speaker 1: that weapon, No, sir, I cannot say that. Thank you, Jeff.
Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the
Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie
Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lydecker,
Speaker 1: Jeff Shane, Connor Powell Andrew Arnow, Gabriel Castillo and me
Speaker 1: Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tui, Music
Speaker 1: by Jared Aston. The Piked and Masker is a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcast from my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol Fisher
Speaker 1: and I'm hosting a podcast called The girl Friends. It's
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time
Speaker 1: to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who
Speaker 1: were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was
Speaker 1: Spob Baron Bout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
Speaker 1: this guy's a wacko. He choked and to the point
Speaker 1: she went unconscious. I would call him and I would say,
Speaker 1: I know you killed my sister. You can listen to
Speaker 1: The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. I'm will Daily. For years
Speaker 1: have been on the road playing shows and seeing America
Speaker 1: through live music. This summer, I'll hit the stage. Who
Speaker 1: Season two of Sound of Our Town ten Cities twelve
Speaker 1: episodes every other Thursday, we explore the live music venues
Speaker 1: in culture of a new American city. With each new episode,
Speaker 1: our tour continues into the kind of venues you want
Speaker 1: to get to when you land in Detroit, Providence, Denver
Speaker 1: or Seattle. Listen to Sound of Our Town on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: This is the story of a man who's fascinated me.
Speaker 1: His name was Sweet Daddy Grace, and that's a name
Speaker 1: you don't forget. He was a visionary who built a
Speaker 1: fortune as a black man during Jim Crow during the Depression.
Speaker 1: But today not many people know about him. The race
Speaker 1: sort of wiped out, and I wonder if this was
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Speaker 1: Freedom and I'm Marthy. We have spent the last twenty
Speaker 1: years building and working at some of the largest companies
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