1 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:09,720 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 2: and speaker. 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 3: And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 3: and course creator. We are two working parents who love 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: our careers and our families. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about 8 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,360 Speaker 2: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 2: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: We want you to get the most out of life. 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: Welcome to best of both worlds. 12 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 4: This is Laura. 13 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: This episode is airing in late July of twenty twenty five. 14 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 2: Sarah is going to be interviewing Heather Avis, who is 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 2: a New York Times bestselling author, public speaker, podcaster, and 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 2: down syndrome advocates. So we're going to talk about her 17 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: really important work that she is doing. So, Sarah, do 18 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: you remember, I mean this whole thing of disability advocacy 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: and things like that. I mean, when you were growing up, 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,000 Speaker 2: do you remember being around a lot of children who 21 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: had differences. 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 3: I don't remember a lot of it, but the people 23 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 3: that I were around definitely made big impressions on me. 24 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 3: And I'm super excited for this work that Heather is doing, 25 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 3: because I think the more visibility and the more people 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 3: are talking about this stuff, the better. My memories are 27 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 3: very specific. We had one of my fellow campers when 28 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 3: I was in day camp was born with one arm, 29 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: and I just like, remember I was little, and the 30 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 3: first time I saw her, I was like, well, that's different. 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 3: And then we just got completely used to it. I mean, 32 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 3: I'd see her year after year, and like I'd notice 33 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 3: how other people noticed it, and I'm like, oh, right, 34 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: that's different. 35 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: But for me, it was just so normal at that point. 36 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: So and you said she was a swimmer, That's what 37 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 2: I love. 38 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 4: Like she. 39 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 3: I remembered her being a very fast swimmer, So yeah, 40 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 3: she she had no problem. 41 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: She managed to figure that out. I love it. 42 00:01:58,560 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: I love it hundred percent. 43 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 3: And there was also a little girl when I was 44 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: a counselor at the same camp that had cystic fibrosis, 45 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: and I didn't know what the condition was, but we 46 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 3: had to give her her enzymes at meals and I 47 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 3: just remember thinking, oh, she seems completely fine, and they say, 48 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 3: this is like a whole thing. And then of course 49 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 3: I learned later as a pediatric resident that it can 50 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 3: be so incredibly serious, especially back then. Now there are 51 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: more treatments for many of these things. But yeah, I 52 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 3: just this work that Heather is doing. I'm just so 53 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 3: happy because I just think the more people talk about it, 54 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 3: the more people see others in society with different needs, 55 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 3: and the more that she can change perspectives on it 56 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 3: what might mean to have a difference the better. 57 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm very excited to hear what she 58 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: has to say, so please enjoy this interview where Sarah's 59 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 2: talking with Heather Avis. 60 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 3: Well, I am so excited to welcome Heather Avis to 61 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 3: the show. She is a New York Times bestselling author, 62 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 3: public speaker, podcaster, and down syndrome advocate, and she has 63 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 3: an interesting story as well as she has really built 64 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 3: a beautiful platform around changing certain narratives that I believe 65 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: has benefited so many people. We've had requests for topics 66 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 3: like this, So welcome Heather. I'm so excited to have you. 67 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:12,359 Speaker 1: On the show. 68 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. It's a thrill to be with 69 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:14,959 Speaker 4: you today. 70 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,239 Speaker 3: Well, I think I've read a little bit about your 71 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: kind of origin story and how your passion grew from 72 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,919 Speaker 3: some life experiences, but our listeners might not be as familiar. 73 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: So why don't you go ahead and give us your background, 74 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 3: Like what got everything started? 75 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,799 Speaker 4: Sure? So I am from southern California and I lived 76 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 4: there with my husband and three kids. And my husband 77 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 4: and I got married many years ago. I was twenty 78 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 4: years old. Think we're about to sea our twenty third anniversary. 79 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 4: And I had one thing I wanted in life, and 80 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 4: that was to be a mom. I wanted that more 81 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 4: desperately than anything else. And early on into our marriage, 82 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 4: when we started to try to have kids, we couldn't 83 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 4: have kids naturally, and we ended up towards walking towards 84 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 4: the path of adoption. It's a very long story of 85 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 4: infertility and getting to that point, but that was where 86 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 4: we felt led, is to walk down the path towards adoption. 87 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 4: And when we were pursuing an adoption plan, when you 88 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 4: pursue adoption plan, you get to check off what you 89 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 4: are open to and not in a potential future child. 90 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 4: It's like a very wild, surreal checklist. And so we 91 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 4: had said no to any major health issues. Ultimately, we 92 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 4: wanted a healthy infant. Well fast forward, we've been a 93 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 4: waiting family for over a year, and we learned about 94 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 4: a little baby with Down syndrome who'd been placed with 95 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 4: our agency. And when I learned about her, it wasn't 96 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 4: like are you interested? It was more of an update 97 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 4: of what's happening. Because we had said no to Down syndrome. 98 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 4: We had said no, she had a congenital heart defect, 99 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 4: she had a slew of medical issues. We said no 100 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 4: to all of those things on paper. But when I 101 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,719 Speaker 4: learned about her, it was one of those moments like 102 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 4: I wish I had never heard it because I couldn't 103 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 4: unkno it and the knowing of it changed something in me. 104 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:05,840 Speaker 4: And I call like the spark in my heart. And 105 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 4: so again, fast forward, so many details, but we ended 106 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 4: up saying yes to our daughter. Macy named her Mason 107 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:17,119 Speaker 4: a caller Macy. And she came home at three months old, 108 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 4: like I said, with a big old hole in her heart. 109 00:05:20,200 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 4: She had opened her surgery a month later, she was 110 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 4: on oxygen medication. All kinds of health issues are medically 111 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 4: fragile baby, and she had Down syndrome. And I call 112 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 4: her my scariest and best Yes, I was so terrified 113 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 4: of everything she was on paper. And then she came 114 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 4: home and wrecked me and changed me forever and for 115 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 4: the better, and then that we pursued two more adoption 116 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 4: plans after she came home. We are our middle daughter, Truly, 117 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 4: so Macy is now seventeen. We have our middle daughter, Truly, 118 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 4: who's fourteen and she doesn't have any disabilities. And then 119 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 4: our youngest son, August is eleven and he also has 120 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 4: Down syndrome, and that's an. 121 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: I see him in the background, yeah. 122 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 4: Blogging about it, and that turned into a book deal, 123 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 4: and then Instagram came around and I started sharing what 124 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 4: I call shifting narratives and shouting worth and I've had 125 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 4: the opportunity to make my life's vision and a career 126 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 4: out of showing the world how incredible people's disabilities are. 127 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:18,839 Speaker 1: I am so curious. 128 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 3: I'm actually a pediatric endochronologist, so I do care for 129 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 3: a good chunk of kids with Down syndrome, and I 130 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,520 Speaker 3: am so interested to hear about the narrative shifting. I mean, like, 131 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 3: the only thing I can come up with, specifically is 132 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 3: that they're so different, like there's not one prototype, Like 133 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: kids have different challenges and different medical issues that come 134 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 3: with it. 135 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: But I want to hear. 136 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 3: From you, who obviously is much more of an expert 137 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 3: than me. What are the narratives that you feel like 138 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 3: have needed shifting and what does that mean to you. 139 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 4: Yes, my kids have lots of specialty doctors, but we 140 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 4: don't see in dem so that's when we don't see. 141 00:06:56,320 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 4: But when I learned about our daughter Macy, like I 142 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 4: was sharing, I call her my scariest and best. Yes, 143 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,919 Speaker 4: the scary part was and why we said no to 144 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 4: her on paper, no to a child like her, was 145 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 4: because the narrative around Down syndrome is so negative. You 146 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 4: hear a lot of parents get in utero or at 147 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 4: birth diagnosis and the feeling that they feel you almost always, 148 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 4: not one hundred percent of the time, but most of 149 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,160 Speaker 4: the time is one of sadness and grief and dread 150 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 4: and despair and all of these negative feelings that are 151 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 4: connected to this diagnosis. Most of those people, the majority, 152 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 4: have never experienced a person with Down syndrome. So it's 153 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 4: a narrative that society has been creating and feeding us 154 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 4: saying Down syndrome equals bad, not that blatantly sometimes, but 155 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 4: it's just our perspective in the stories and what we 156 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 4: know or don't know about Down syndrome. And I would say, 157 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:53,119 Speaker 4: disability at large, our society has decided disability equals bad, 158 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 4: and so if it's bad, then it's we want to 159 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 4: avoid it. And then I bring this baby girl home, 160 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 4: and I remember that very first night, right out. We 161 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 4: picked her up from the agency, like from the office, 162 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 4: and we met the foster family there. She wasn't living 163 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 4: at the agency, and we bring her home and I 164 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 4: walk her upstairs and she's already fallen asleep on my 165 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 4: shoulder and I sat in the corner with this baby. 166 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 4: She was so little, she was less than ten pounds 167 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 4: at three months old. And I'm looking at her face 168 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 4: and I'm in love, right, And two weeks prior, I 169 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 4: was terrified and I'm thinking, I look at her and 170 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 4: I said out loud, I can't remember what I was 171 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 4: so afraid of, like, look at this baby. And then 172 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 4: that started to create a new story, a new narrative 173 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 4: in my own life. And as she started to get 174 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 4: a little bit older, within the first couple of years 175 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 4: of her life, I'd find myself doing life, going to 176 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 4: the grocery store or the park, lots of doctor's appointments 177 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 4: just in our community, and most of the time she 178 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 4: was the only person with down syndrome in a space 179 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 4: almost always. And I remember being at the park one 180 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 4: day and watching her pole to stand on a piece 181 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 4: of ground equipment, and she was probably two, like most 182 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 4: kids are walking and just being elated and looking around 183 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 4: at the other people like do you see thinking like 184 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 4: do you see what's happening? And it's in their minds 185 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 4: like no big deal, right, A two year old's pulling 186 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 4: themselves this stand. And the feeling that overcame me was 187 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 4: how lucky I was that she was mine and how 188 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 4: afraid I was of her, like remembering that narrative, and 189 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 4: so it really started me on this mission to tell 190 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 4: the bigger, truer story of down syndrome. And it's not 191 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 4: one of rainbows and unicorns, Like it's hard. There's a 192 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 4: lot of things that are hard. But life is hard, 193 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 4: and parenting is hard, and raising a child is really 194 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 4: really hard, and being a human can be really really hard. 195 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 4: But heart isn't bad. Heart is just hard. And so 196 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 4: I wanted to tell this bigger story and I did 197 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 4: that initially by sharing just our experience, like a day 198 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 4: in the life. I did that with things like Instagram, 199 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 4: and then I've had the opportunity to meet hundreds and 200 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 4: hundreds of families in the Down syndrome community, and oftentimes 201 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 4: they felt it was a very similar narrative and like 202 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 4: we were here, which was terrified, and we came here, 203 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 4: which feels lucky. And I started using this phrase the 204 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 4: lucky few, feeling like few of us love someone with 205 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 4: Down syndrome, and those of us who do are so lucky. 206 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 4: And as I threw that into the world through my language, 207 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 4: through my writing, through a hashtag, the downs in your 208 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,080 Speaker 4: community just grabbed a hold of it with both fists, like, yes, 209 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,079 Speaker 4: this is it, this is it, this is it again. 210 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 4: Not one hundred percent of us, and that's fine. We 211 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 4: all have our own unique lived experiences. But for the 212 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 4: most part, that idea of feeling so unbelievably lucky to 213 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 4: love a person with Down syndrome has been the biggest 214 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:43,720 Speaker 4: narrative shift for me. 215 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I think you this is a record 216 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,720 Speaker 3: for the most chills I've gotten the intro of a 217 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 3: guest that we've ever had, because that was just like, 218 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 3: so beautiful and so true. And I think a lot 219 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 3: of it is about like expectations versus reality, and the 220 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 3: fact that you've been able to share your reality and 221 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 3: how beautiful it's been, and all the different realities that 222 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 3: look different ways out there, but still that it doesn't 223 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 3: make them different, doesn't mean less than it's just like different. 224 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 3: I can see how much value that must be adding 225 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:14,560 Speaker 3: to the whole community. 226 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean my life is so deeply enriched by 227 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 4: loving a person with a disability, like coming alongside in 228 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 4: mutuality with my friends who have disability, being my kids parents, 229 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 4: in honoring who they are with disability. It's completely changed 230 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 4: how I am as a person for better, always for better. 231 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 232 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 3: Well, we're going to take a quick break and when 233 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 3: we get back, we're going to talk a little bit 234 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 3: about differences, since I think naturally when you have somebody 235 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: that might have some outward physical differences or maybe they're 236 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 3: invisible differences, that invites questioning from the world, and you 237 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: are a great person to answer questions the rest of 238 00:11:55,960 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 3: us as to how to best handle that. 239 00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: So we will be right back. 240 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: All right, we are back, and I think we'll have 241 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 3: to go back to the stuff you were just talking 242 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 3: about because it was so powerful. But I also want 243 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 3: to talk about comparison, because I think you have a 244 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: lot to say in this realm, and a lot of 245 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 3: it does relate to children that have various. 246 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:28,239 Speaker 1: Types of differences. 247 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 3: So kids are going to compare themselves to their classmates, 248 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 3: to a kid that might look different than them or 249 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: achieves them milestone at a different age, et cetera. I can't 250 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 3: imagine that you can stop the comparison, or at least 251 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 3: it's hard, because I think. 252 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: It's partly human nature. 253 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 3: But how along with the comparison, can you help there 254 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 3: be like a celebration of uniquenesses instead of just anxiety 255 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 3: or negative feelings about the differences. Yeah. 256 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 4: I think it was Roosevelt who said comparison is the 257 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 4: thief of all joy, and not the first time I 258 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 4: heard that. I'm like, yeah, that is so true. How 259 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 4: much joy comparison has stolen from me? And like you mentioned, 260 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 4: I think it's just a natural thing to do. I 261 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 4: don't think we need to feel shame about it. I 262 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 4: think with how how we let it affect the rest 263 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 4: of who we are and how we live life, I 264 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 4: think is where the rubber hits the road. But to 265 00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 4: feel that like jolt of huh, like I noticed this 266 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 4: is different from this, I noticed this person can this 267 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 4: person can't like that's just being observant. You're going to 268 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 4: be comparing. There's places where comparison offers incredible growth for 269 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 4: so many different people and different experiences, But I do 270 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 4: think the majority, especially in parenting, I'm I'm sure you 271 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 4: can relate to this. Like, man, the amount of times 272 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 4: that as parents and caregivers we look at what this 273 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 4: kid to our right and left is doing, and then 274 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 4: we think, if only we change their diet, get more sleep, 275 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 4: watch this show, Like we can list the things that 276 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 4: were like, if we do these things, then maybe my 277 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 4: kid can be more fill in the blank, right, So 278 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 4: that's all happening for me with my experience. I can 279 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 4: tell a quick story with my daughter Macy. I remember 280 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 4: initially comparing her to her non disabled peers and knowing 281 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 4: that she was going to be delayed from the very beginning, 282 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 4: like almost every milestone was going to take her a lot, 283 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 4: a lot longer. So there was like a gentleness in 284 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 4: that comparison. And then we got into the down syndrome 285 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 4: world more and comparing her to her peers with down syndrome, 286 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 4: and that just created shame and disappointment and took all 287 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 4: my joy awake because it's like, wait, this kid also 288 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 4: has Down syndrome and they're walking, and Mason hasn't taken 289 00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: her first step. What's wrong with my daughter? That's right 290 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 4: with this person. Okay, So then fast forward a little bit. 291 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 4: I remember Macy was five and we were at a 292 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 4: learning program for families with Down syndrome specifically, and she 293 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 4: was working with her peers and professionals. And then I 294 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 4: was in a group of parents and we were talking 295 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 4: about telling time, like helping our kids with math and 296 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 4: time telling or something like that, and the woman in 297 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 4: charge said something along the lines of, isn't that why 298 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 4: we do all of this meaning, like these learning programs 299 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 4: and the therapies and all of this learning so that 300 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 4: our kids can be more like the typical peers. And 301 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 4: it stopped me in my tracks and really changed the 302 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 4: trajectory for me of how I parented and how I 303 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 4: viewed my children, and I viewed myself in that I thought, wait, no, 304 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 4: my goal for my daughter with Down syndrome is for 305 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 4: her to be her best self. But I had never 306 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 4: stopped to think through that. I had never stopped to 307 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 4: realize that until that moment when it stopped me and 308 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 4: I thought, wait, she has Down syndrome. It's a beautiful 309 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,440 Speaker 4: part of her. I don't want her to not have 310 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 4: down syndrome, And what an exhausting thing for her to 311 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 4: have to spend her entire life doing to be more 312 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 4: like someone else. No, I want Macy to be Macy. 313 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 4: And that right there became, like I said, this defining moment, 314 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 4: and as I moved forward in all my parenting, and 315 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 4: still today, it's almost like this tether that I go 316 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 4: back to because the comparison will pull me right and 317 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: pull me left. But this remembrance of we're going to 318 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 4: pursue any kind of activity or special way of eating 319 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 4: or therapy with this goal in mind, that my children 320 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 4: are their best selves, not someone else's best self. And 321 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 4: that little like nugget, as simple as it sounds, has 322 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 4: been so freeing in how I parent, and freeing for 323 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 4: me too, write like if I'm doing my best, that 324 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 4: has to be enough, because if it's not, we're just 325 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 4: going to fail, fail, fail fail. Like all we can 326 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 4: all be is our best, and our best is uniquely ours. 327 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 4: So I find so much freedom and just like exhale 328 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 4: in that truth. 329 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: And everything that you said to me would apply also 330 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 3: to other differences learning differences, physical differences, even just different 331 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 3: relative strengths that your various kids might have or that 332 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 3: your kids might have in comparison to their peers. 333 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:08,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I have to. 334 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 3: Also ask how within the family, now you have kids 335 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 3: that have more typical pace of development and kids that 336 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 3: have Down syndrome, do you have best practices for families 337 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 3: navigating this because I feel like that in itself can 338 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 3: be tricky. It's the kid against their peers. But I mean, 339 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 3: I don't want to use the word against. Obviously that's 340 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 3: what we're trying to avoid here. But as thoughts come 341 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: up in either kid in the Down syndrome child or 342 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: the typical child, and they wonder about these things, what 343 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: are some great ways to talk about it or address it? 344 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 4: Such a good question, And sometimes there's questions when we 345 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 4: talk about like howe the how to's, how can we 346 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 4: that have nice steps for us? Or like these laid 347 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 4: out tools I have found and I can give some 348 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 4: little pointers, but that when it comes to something like comparison, 349 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 4: what we're talking about, it's such a posture of the heart. 350 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 4: I think it starts with an internal investigation of what 351 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 4: is it that I want for my child? Like simply 352 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 4: starting they're like, what is it that I want for 353 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 4: my child? And hopefully we get to the point where 354 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 4: we say I want them to be their best self, 355 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 4: because anything outside of that is unachievable. Anything outside of 356 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 4: that is going to strip them and ourselves as their parents, 357 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 4: of our humanity, of our dignity, because we're trying to 358 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 4: be something that is that is impossible, and we're putting 359 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: our value and worth on the things we can or 360 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 4: cannot do, which can be stripped from us in any 361 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 4: second of our lives. And that not to be like 362 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 4: an alarmist or whatever the word would be, but that's 363 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 4: the reality that at any moment in our lives, everything 364 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 4: that we're capable of can be stripped from us. And 365 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 4: so then where does our value and worth lie? And 366 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 4: that has been the gift of the journey of being 367 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,160 Speaker 4: my kid's parents, and starting with being oldest may see 368 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 4: is that she brought me to that place where I 369 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 4: asked myself, what is it that makes her have value 370 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 4: and worth? What do I want for her? And then 371 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 4: the second part of that question is what gives a 372 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:13,240 Speaker 4: human value in life or value and worth? What is 373 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 4: it that we decide make somebody worthy of living a 374 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 4: honorable life with community and belonging in love. And for me, 375 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 4: it came down. I had to strip it down very 376 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 4: very like to the breath, tas of it's the heart 377 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 4: beating your chest, the breath and your lungs and can 378 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: you love and be loved? And if those three things 379 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 4: are true of a life, then that life has meaning 380 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 4: and value. That there's not a thing that we need 381 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 4: to do or not do that's going to take away 382 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 4: or add to that meaning and value. It's just inherent. 383 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 4: It just exists because you exist. And I believe that 384 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 4: with my whole heart for my kids. And with comparison, 385 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 4: it's interesting because Macie as my oldest with Down syndrome, 386 00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 4: My son August, who's eleven, is six years younger, and 387 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,160 Speaker 4: there's skill sets he also has Down syndrome are so different. 388 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 4: And August has surpassed his sister who's six years older 389 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 4: than him in many ways as a person with Down syndrome, 390 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:13,239 Speaker 4: in a lot of his skill set that he has 391 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 4: a lot of his abilities. But it's not something that 392 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 4: rattles me or upsets me at this point because of 393 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 4: that foundation that I had the opportunity to lay all 394 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 4: those years ago, when Macey was so young, and then 395 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 4: you added my middle daughter to the mix. Truly, and 396 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,479 Speaker 4: truly is one of those kids that when she tries it, 397 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 4: she's good at it, Like she's gorgeous just her look, 398 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 4: her personality. Every sport she tries she's good at. She's 399 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 4: an incredible singer, she can dance, she's songwrites. I mean, 400 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 4: it's just the other day we went to like maybe 401 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 4: a month ago, we went to throw frisbees and I 402 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 4: didn't even know she could throw a frisbee, And I'm like, 403 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 4: this is unbelievable. How good you are throwing a frisbee. 404 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,920 Speaker 4: This is just truly, And I think if I didn't 405 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 4: have Macy to tether me and anchor me to the 406 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 4: truth of should be only your best self, that I 407 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 4: would be holding truly skill set with pride like this 408 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 4: is something that I did right, or she is an 409 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 4: example of my accomplishment as a parent, and also putting 410 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,239 Speaker 4: that pressure on her to be the best at all 411 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 4: of those things, the best, not her best, And instead 412 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 4: I can look at her and say, oh, babe, I 413 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 4: am so proud of who you are, like this is amazing, 414 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 4: And then she can choose the thing that she wants 415 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 4: to do well, and we're going to invest in that. 416 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 4: She'll take lessons and she can practice, and we'll do 417 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 4: all that investment. But at the end of the day, 418 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 4: I can look at her and say, oh, babe, if 419 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 4: you lost your voice today, then you could never sing 420 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 4: another note, and she can know in her heart of 421 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 4: hearts that's not going to change at all, how amazing 422 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,959 Speaker 4: you are, how much I love you, why I love you. 423 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 4: So it's really that foundation of an understanding and that 424 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 4: internal work that we get to do as parents. Hope 425 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 4: that's helpful and not annoying or confusing. 426 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: Oh, not annoying at all. It's true. 427 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 3: I mean, like a pre recorded script would be awesome, 428 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,600 Speaker 3: but I mean that's even more valuable that like teaching 429 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,120 Speaker 3: them that their worth is about them trying in them 430 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 3: being their best self that they can be at that 431 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 3: time with what they have at that moment. It's the 432 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 3: most important is you're right, probably is going to prevent 433 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 3: a lot of those cascades from happening in the first place. 434 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: We're going to take another quick. 435 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 3: Break and talk a little bit about affirmation and how 436 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 3: to I mean, I guess we kind. 437 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: Of talked about that a little bit. 438 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 3: But I want to talk about I like versus I love, 439 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 3: especially because that plays a role in your upcoming book. 440 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: So yeah, you will be right back. 441 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 3: All right, we are back, And in your work you 442 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 3: talk a lot about how do we positively affirm our kids, 443 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 3: But also you talk about using the words I like, 444 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 3: and I think you actually just did it in the 445 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 3: example you just gave, which might even be more powerful, 446 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 3: you say, than the concept of love. So what's the 447 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 3: difference there, and why would you say that? 448 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 4: Yes, so, I don't think there's anything more powerful than love. 449 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 4: I think love is the ultimate of all things we 450 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 4: build are all goodness on. I think when I'm talking 451 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 4: about when I say to say I like you or 452 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 4: I like something about you, it's not that it's more 453 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 4: powerful than love. It's that it hits a little bit 454 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 4: with a little more girth. And if you think about this, 455 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 4: like you hear stories about people who grew up in 456 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,479 Speaker 4: a home that maybe wasn't real lovey dovey, and they 457 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 4: would say, I always knew my parents loved me, right 458 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 4: like I always knew my dad loved me. That was 459 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 4: never a question. But when I turned thirty and he 460 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,199 Speaker 4: said he was proud of me for this thing, right, 461 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 4: or he said I like you. The weight of that 462 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 4: is so big and important, and as parents and people 463 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 4: are raising kids, it is a given we love our kid, 464 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 4: our kid. I mean, my kids entered my hands through adoption, 465 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 4: but like you birth the child, and just the love 466 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,439 Speaker 4: is just exists. It's almost like an unconditional thing. And 467 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 4: I think often we can put conditions on like on 468 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 4: what we like, on what we don't like. And so 469 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 4: for our kids to know that we also like them 470 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 4: and we like them just because of who they are, 471 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 4: that it's not even necessarily a condition on what we 472 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 4: like about them. It's not like I like you when 473 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 4: you do this, only when you do this, like oh, no, 474 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 4: I like being in the same room as you. I 475 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 4: like when you come up and give me a hug. 476 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 4: I like to sit next to you. Hey, I like you. 477 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 4: Did you know that I like you so much? And 478 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:35,400 Speaker 4: when you say those things to our kids, I think 479 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 4: it's a little bit if they're not used to it, 480 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 4: like oh, and it hits harder, it sits weightier in 481 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 4: a way that I think is really affirming for our kids. 482 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,479 Speaker 4: I think it's important for our relationship with our kids 483 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 4: or just anybody in our lives too. I think it's 484 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 4: very powerful. 485 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 3: I mean, I haven't heard that before, but as you're 486 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,640 Speaker 3: saying it, I feel like, yeah, it is really powerful, 487 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 3: and I'd like to verbalize that stuff worn. I could 488 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 3: think about how even in different contexts, it might be nice, 489 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 3: like I like taking you to soccer games or I 490 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 3: like picking you up and whatever, and oh that's great, 491 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 3: and I think not really as common, if that makes sense. 492 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what it is. It's just something 493 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 4: that we don't It's like this opportunity and practice that 494 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 4: we have as parents at our fingertips. That's so easy 495 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 4: to say, but at the end of I think a 496 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 4: lot of people will think, like, wait, when was the 497 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,159 Speaker 4: last time I told mek I like them, Like I 498 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 4: like how they show up in the world. I don't 499 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 4: know if I've said that in a long time, or 500 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 4: even ever out loud. They know I love them, but 501 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 4: what can I do today to show them how much 502 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 4: I like them? 503 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: Yeah that's beautiful. 504 00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, maybe we should have a like of the 505 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 3: week instead of a love of the week. I'm thinking 506 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 3: about that. Hmm, what could I like of the week be? 507 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: It might be different than my love of the week. 508 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 3: But yeah, so that is our segment. I give you 509 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 3: a warning, but I'll give you time to think about 510 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 3: yours as I give mine. 511 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,000 Speaker 1: My like of the week is my marine Layer. 512 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 3: Well it's a convertible fanny pack, and then it's also 513 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 3: like a small purse, so it can be either and 514 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 3: it's like the perfect size, and it kind of looks 515 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 3: like those little lemon bags that like everyone has, which 516 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 3: I also like those two, but it's just a little 517 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 3: bit different, and it has color blocking and it's really 518 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: not very expensive, and I got a lot of compliments 519 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 3: on it when I just took a recent trip using it. 520 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 3: So that is my like of the week. And I'm 521 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: this is a non spawn like, this is just I 522 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 3: got it for a Mother's Day gift. 523 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: Just enjoy it. So I will share. 524 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: That yours can be deeper than that. That was a 525 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 3: pretty like surface level one. But I do really like 526 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 3: that bag. But what is your love or like of the. 527 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 4: Work this week? A great bag is something to like 528 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 4: and love. I am traveling right now for summer. My 529 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 4: family and I've been to a few different states over 530 00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 4: the last couple of weeks, and we were in Savannah Georgia, 531 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 4: and I'm from southern California, and there's all these roadside 532 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 4: stands in that neck of the woods up through like 533 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,359 Speaker 4: Charleston and South Carolina and stuff with boiled peanuts. Do 534 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 4: you guys have boiled peanut? Okay, they've got them in Hawaii, 535 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,719 Speaker 4: and then they're all on this like eastern coast, like 536 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,239 Speaker 4: in the South, and we just there's nowhere you're going 537 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 4: in California and getting a boiled peanut. It's just sort 538 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 4: of thing. I love boiled peanuts. I think they're so delicious, 539 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 4: they're so addictive, so that I bought a big old 540 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 4: bag at a farmer's market and I have been loving 541 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 4: those this week. 542 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,959 Speaker 3: I love that I live in Florida, where they do 543 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,199 Speaker 3: have boiled peanuts. But I remember going to college and 544 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 3: there's one kid in my dorm from Florida and he 545 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 3: would all he would talk about was like boiled peanuts. 546 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 3: So that's when I first learned about them. So you're right, 547 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 3: it's like only southern. 548 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: It's like a Southern thing. 549 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 4: I think it is a Southern thing. Well, you lucky 550 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 4: Southern folks. I'm sure we can make boiled peanuts. I'm 551 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 4: sure the process is not that hard, but it's fine. Yeah, 552 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 4: a roadside stand boiled peanut is a good time. 553 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 554 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 3: Well, I feel like we have only scraped the surface 555 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: of your work, which I am super interested to read 556 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 3: more of now myself. 557 00:27:58,800 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: So I'm sure that is. 558 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 3: True of our listeners, So tell them where they can 559 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 3: find you, as well as your upcoming children's book release, 560 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 3: which I think will bring that vernacular of liking into 561 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 3: the open and kind of be a great starting point. 562 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,879 Speaker 3: And I got to look at the book and it's beautiful, 563 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 3: So yeah, tell everybody about you. 564 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm at Heatheravis dot com and then my 565 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 4: newest children's book. I like you so much, celebrating what 566 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 4: makes you you is wherever books are sold. It's out now. 567 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 3: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Heather. 568 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. 569 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: Well that was awesome hearing from Heather about the wonderful 570 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: work she is doing as an advocate for people with 571 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 2: various differences. So our question this week was sent into Sarah, 572 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: so I will read it and then Sarah can respond. 573 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 2: Listener wants to ask for advice about how you transitioned 574 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: your travel planning after having kids, So this listener says 575 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: in the before times, so before kids, she and her 576 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 2: husband would take various trips to places like Europe. They 577 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: had a long time before their son arrived, as they 578 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 2: were dealing with infertility treatments and things like that. But 579 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 2: the point is that they spent a lot of their 580 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: life not worrying about the schedules of small children, flight times, 581 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: small hotel rims, things like that. Their son is now 582 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 2: five years old, so they are getting to the point 583 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 2: where travel might be more possible again, and she's been 584 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 2: trying to come up with a travel wish list, but 585 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 2: her husband seems uninspired. She says, I think it's hard 586 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: for him to translate what we did as a couple, 587 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: with the various museums, historical sites, fancy restaurants, to traveling 588 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 2: with a kid. They did do a trip to Montreal 589 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,959 Speaker 2: last year and had a great time, So any suggestions 590 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 2: on how to help him get unstock from how we 591 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: used to travel? So, Sarah, what did you think of 592 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: this question? I thought maybe there was something else going 593 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 2: on with this than just I don't know. 594 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought this was so interesting. I mean, is 595 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: there like an element of oh, things are different now? 596 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 3: So I don't see the good in any of those differences, 597 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 3: or maybe just a little bit of like if I 598 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 3: can't do it a certain way, I don't want to 599 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: do it at all, or some planning challenges which we'll 600 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 3: get into. But I think this needs to be like 601 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: a serious conversation. I mean, travel can be such a 602 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 3: highlight of family time, and if you're sort of hitting 603 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 3: a brick wall as you're trying to think through it, 604 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 3: I think this isn't something to just gloss over and 605 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 3: move on. 606 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: This is something to really delve into. 607 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 3: I mean, the question is is it because he sees 608 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 3: himself maybe traveling and not having the childcare that makes 609 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,800 Speaker 3: his life feel more doable, because that can be a hesitation, 610 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: And if so, would it be easier to think about 611 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 3: vacations where as a first step there is some provided childcare. 612 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, hello, Disney Cruise would be an option. 613 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 3: Or traveling with family like an older cousin that could 614 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: do childcare, or even traveling with a nanny. If you 615 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 3: want to go to Europe and you have someone that's 616 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 3: willing to go with you, that could be awesome. You'd 617 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 3: have some support on the road. Or maybe it just 618 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 3: feels really daunting and he can't picture things looking different. 619 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: But maybe you could. 620 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 3: Write out some like pretend my itineraries of some shorter, 621 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 3: more low key trips that would have some of the 622 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 3: elements of the things that he liked before, but would 623 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 3: feel more doable with a kid and the fact that 624 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 3: your child is five, I feel like you're over the 625 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: really really tough travel. 626 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: Piece already, and there's so many fun things you. 627 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 3: Can do, and Europe particularly, I feel like I just 628 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 3: keep hearing how incredibly kid friendly certain countries are, with 629 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 3: like outdoor play spaces and just amazing natural areas. So yeah, 630 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 3: I think this needs to be like a full on 631 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 3: deep dive in my opinion. 632 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe maybe. I think there's a couple things going on. 633 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 2: I mean, one, I do like the idea of just 634 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 2: deciding to do some lower key trips over the next year. 635 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: So if you've got your travel bucket list, maybe some 636 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 2: of those travel places are a little closer or more 637 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,560 Speaker 2: feel more feasible than others, and you might decide to 638 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 2: book those for the next year or so to sort 639 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 2: of help him get his sea legs under him, so 640 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 2: that when you guys are deciding a year from now 641 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 2: to go take that week long trip to Germany, which 642 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 2: by the way, they like kids there. You'll be fine. 643 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: It's like it will be good, right, he will all 644 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: already have experienced like being on a plane for three 645 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: hours with a kid, So now being on a plane 646 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 2: for like seven hours with a kid, it's not a 647 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: whole different thing. It's like you've done it. You've experienced 648 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 2: your first flight delay with a kid, like you've gotten 649 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 2: through it. You will be through. But I think it 650 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 2: may also be that he just doesn't want to plan it. 651 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: I don't know what you guys had. If he was 652 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 2: the travel planner before and he's just feeling busy and 653 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 2: overwhelmed between work, and then time outside of work is 654 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 2: spent maybe all with your five year old. I don't 655 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: really know what the setup is. But he just may 656 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: not feel like he has it in him right now 657 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 2: to plan a intense thing. So it's not that he's 658 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 2: I don't want to travel. It says he doesn't want 659 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 2: to plan it. So the pushback you're getting is not 660 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 2: I can't imagine traveling with my five year old. It's like, oh, yeah, 661 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: we'll think about that later. Yeah, Oh, I can't really 662 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: talk about this right now. I have to go do 663 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 2: something else. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, Well, why don't 664 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: we talk about that in a week or two. It's 665 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 2: like he doesn't want to plan it. Okay, so that 666 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 2: means you do, like you just take this on and 667 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: that may or may not be fair, but I mean 668 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 2: I'm for now. If this is what you want to do, 669 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 2: I say, look, look, we need to go somewhere for 670 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 2: Christmas next year. We've decided that we would like to 671 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: I'd like to try traveling. I want to go to X. 672 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: Do you have any specific objections to going to X. 673 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: He's like, well, I don't know if we should make 674 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: a DISCISIONI I want to make a decision in the 675 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,160 Speaker 2: next week. If you have not decided and told me 676 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: a reason no, in the next week, I'm going to 677 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 2: book it, right and I think you will. Maybe that 678 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,000 Speaker 2: may sound a little but harsh, but he can give 679 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 2: you a good reason in the next week of why, 680 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, we don't have the money right now, Okay, 681 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 2: that would be a reason. All right. 682 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,359 Speaker 1: We my mom really jet lag. 683 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, my mom is really sick and we need to 684 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 2: make sure we're around to see her. If that's the case, 685 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: he could come up with a good reason. 686 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 4: But if he. 687 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: Doesn't, then it's just the resistance to like planning it. 688 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 2: And I think if you then plan it, he will 689 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: probably find it okay. And then once the first big 690 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 2: trip is done, I think you'll have the experience. 691 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 3: Of enjoying it. No, it makes sense like that there 692 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 3: might be a lot more inertia than there was before 693 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:35,959 Speaker 3: when you guys were in a groove and it didn't 694 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 3: even feel that daunting to put together a trip, and 695 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 3: now it's like, I don't even know how to deal 696 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 3: with that. So it might be easier just to keep 697 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 3: pushing it back. 698 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:44,399 Speaker 4: Yeah. 699 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you don't have to. You can make it happen. 700 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: You can make it happen. All right. Well, this has 701 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 2: been best of Both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing Heather Avis. 702 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 2: We will be back next week on more with more 703 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 2: on making work and life fit together. 704 00:34:58,560 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. 705 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 3: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com 706 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 3: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you. 707 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 2: Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This 708 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 2: has been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join 709 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: us next time for more on making work and life 710 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 2: work together.