1 00:00:16,897 --> 00:00:29,617 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Before we get started, let's talk about Pushkin Plus. 2 00:00:30,137 --> 00:00:34,737 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a subscription podcast program available on Apple Podcasts. 3 00:00:35,297 --> 00:00:38,737 Speaker 1: Members will get access to exclusive bonus content like my 4 00:00:38,777 --> 00:00:41,457 Speaker 1: weekly bookmarks, where I talk about how I got a 5 00:00:41,497 --> 00:00:43,897 Speaker 1: book agent and what I'm watching on TV that week. 6 00:00:44,497 --> 00:00:48,257 Speaker 1: You'll get uninterrupted listening to many of your favorite podcasts 7 00:00:48,537 --> 00:00:53,457 Speaker 1: like Revisious History, Cautionary Tales, and The Happiness Lab. Sign 8 00:00:53,537 --> 00:00:55,857 Speaker 1: up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple 9 00:00:55,937 --> 00:01:11,137 Speaker 1: podcast or at pushkin dot com. Celebrating and spotlighting and 10 00:01:12,057 --> 00:01:17,657 Speaker 1: expanding stories about black women. I know that is my 11 00:01:17,777 --> 00:01:22,137 Speaker 1: purpose here. That is the thing that makes the writing 12 00:01:22,217 --> 00:01:27,697 Speaker 1: worth it. Because writing is hard. It is hard. Yes. 13 00:01:32,137 --> 00:01:35,737 Speaker 1: Zeba Blay is a writer and pop culture critic who 14 00:01:35,817 --> 00:01:40,057 Speaker 1: centers black life in everything she writes. She's also the 15 00:01:40,097 --> 00:01:44,217 Speaker 1: force behind the hashtag care free black Girl, which is 16 00:01:44,217 --> 00:01:47,857 Speaker 1: taken on a life of its own. It's part activism, 17 00:01:47,857 --> 00:01:52,257 Speaker 1: part mantra, part safe space. She released the book of 18 00:01:52,377 --> 00:01:55,577 Speaker 1: essays named after her viral hashtag in twenty twenty one, 19 00:01:56,137 --> 00:02:05,057 Speaker 1: and it was our February book Club pick. Welcome to 20 00:02:05,137 --> 00:02:08,377 Speaker 1: Well Read black Girl, the literary kickback you didn't even 21 00:02:08,457 --> 00:02:13,177 Speaker 1: know you needed. I'm your host ry Adam. Each week 22 00:02:13,217 --> 00:02:16,217 Speaker 1: I sit in conversation with one of my favorite authors. 23 00:02:16,617 --> 00:02:19,577 Speaker 1: We talk about the craft of writing and of course, 24 00:02:19,897 --> 00:02:25,937 Speaker 1: what it means to be well read. On today's episode, 25 00:02:26,057 --> 00:02:28,697 Speaker 1: Zeba and I talk about how she handled her mental 26 00:02:28,737 --> 00:02:32,817 Speaker 1: health journey, how the Internet shaped her writing, and how 27 00:02:32,857 --> 00:02:51,897 Speaker 1: intentionality is a bomb for her work. Welcome, ZeVA. How 28 00:02:51,937 --> 00:02:54,497 Speaker 1: are you just very excited to see your face and 29 00:02:54,617 --> 00:02:56,617 Speaker 1: be talking to you because you know I'm a stand 30 00:02:56,737 --> 00:03:00,817 Speaker 1: So yeah, do you remember when you first started writing? 31 00:03:00,897 --> 00:03:02,777 Speaker 1: Do you remember the first thing that you wrote that 32 00:03:03,057 --> 00:03:06,377 Speaker 1: really made you feel brave? So? I come from a 33 00:03:06,417 --> 00:03:10,977 Speaker 1: family of writers. My father's a journalist and Ghana mom 34 00:03:11,097 --> 00:03:14,777 Speaker 1: was a journalist. Everyone as a writer, so I grew 35 00:03:14,817 --> 00:03:17,497 Speaker 1: up always knowing that this was a form of expression 36 00:03:17,577 --> 00:03:20,377 Speaker 1: that I was innately plugged into. There was something in 37 00:03:20,457 --> 00:03:23,577 Speaker 1: my lineage that made it easy for me back then. 38 00:03:23,577 --> 00:03:27,737 Speaker 1: Now it's not so easy. But I started writing when 39 00:03:27,777 --> 00:03:30,737 Speaker 1: I was like ten, like little short stories. I would 40 00:03:30,777 --> 00:03:33,457 Speaker 1: like read The Babysitters Club and then like make my 41 00:03:33,497 --> 00:03:35,857 Speaker 1: own version of that kind of stuff. But I think 42 00:03:35,897 --> 00:03:39,857 Speaker 1: when I first really began to like find my voice 43 00:03:40,777 --> 00:03:44,457 Speaker 1: was the Internet, you know, discovering the Internet and discovering 44 00:03:44,537 --> 00:03:48,297 Speaker 1: sites like zanga and live journal was a really really 45 00:03:48,297 --> 00:03:50,617 Speaker 1: big one for me. I started my live journal when 46 00:03:50,657 --> 00:03:53,177 Speaker 1: I was fifteen, and I ended it when I was 47 00:03:53,217 --> 00:03:57,217 Speaker 1: like twenty one. And it's so crazy because my voice 48 00:03:57,217 --> 00:03:59,977 Speaker 1: hasn't really changed a lot, which I find very interesting. 49 00:04:00,097 --> 00:04:03,457 Speaker 1: And so it was on live journal and tumbler in 50 00:04:03,457 --> 00:04:06,017 Speaker 1: those kind of spaces where I really started to develop 51 00:04:06,417 --> 00:04:09,577 Speaker 1: a sense of myself and especially a sense of myself 52 00:04:09,617 --> 00:04:13,017 Speaker 1: in relation to hop culture. When you say that your 53 00:04:13,057 --> 00:04:15,857 Speaker 1: live journal hasn't changed much, what do you mean in particular? 54 00:04:16,057 --> 00:04:20,217 Speaker 1: Is there a tone that you still embody when you write? Well, 55 00:04:20,297 --> 00:04:23,577 Speaker 1: for one thing, it's all very sad, and I think 56 00:04:23,617 --> 00:04:26,537 Speaker 1: that I'm a sad writer, and I realized I'm like, wow, 57 00:04:26,577 --> 00:04:29,617 Speaker 1: Like I've been using writing as a way to heal 58 00:04:29,897 --> 00:04:32,097 Speaker 1: since I was a teenager and I didn't even know it. 59 00:04:32,137 --> 00:04:34,697 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of themes about just what I'm 60 00:04:34,737 --> 00:04:38,417 Speaker 1: going through and the art that I was being drawn 61 00:04:38,457 --> 00:04:41,017 Speaker 1: to as a way to deal with that pain. But 62 00:04:41,057 --> 00:04:44,257 Speaker 1: then I find that, like, I can be really dry 63 00:04:44,297 --> 00:04:46,417 Speaker 1: and sort of snarky in a way that I don't 64 00:04:46,457 --> 00:04:49,857 Speaker 1: even realize. And then reading back some of these entries, 65 00:04:49,897 --> 00:04:52,777 Speaker 1: I was like Oh, this girl had opinions about things, 66 00:04:52,857 --> 00:04:54,817 Speaker 1: you know, and it's like I would suggest to any 67 00:04:54,857 --> 00:04:58,657 Speaker 1: writer listening to this, Like I know people cringe thinking 68 00:04:58,697 --> 00:05:01,217 Speaker 1: about their old writing, but just go back and see 69 00:05:01,257 --> 00:05:04,657 Speaker 1: who you were. It's so revealing about a lot of things, 70 00:05:04,657 --> 00:05:07,697 Speaker 1: and like it's been a really cool experience. Actually, I 71 00:05:07,777 --> 00:05:11,217 Speaker 1: definitely have like tons and tons of journals from when 72 00:05:11,257 --> 00:05:14,977 Speaker 1: I was in primary school in high school, and it's true, 73 00:05:15,017 --> 00:05:17,097 Speaker 1: like you go back and it's like the essence of 74 00:05:17,137 --> 00:05:20,857 Speaker 1: who you are at like fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, it's still 75 00:05:20,897 --> 00:05:23,257 Speaker 1: there even as an adult. But I want to talk 76 00:05:23,377 --> 00:05:26,937 Speaker 1: more about just a mindset. This might sound a little silly, 77 00:05:26,977 --> 00:05:29,297 Speaker 1: but I really think there's like a ZeVA aesthetic. Like 78 00:05:29,337 --> 00:05:32,657 Speaker 1: I love watching you on social It really is, girl. 79 00:05:32,817 --> 00:05:34,977 Speaker 1: It's like it's just so because it's so bright and 80 00:05:35,137 --> 00:05:38,497 Speaker 1: vivid and authentic. It's like all of you in your 81 00:05:38,577 --> 00:05:42,377 Speaker 1: joy and in your pain, and it feels very effortless. 82 00:05:42,497 --> 00:05:44,617 Speaker 1: But I know it's not. I know that you are 83 00:05:44,617 --> 00:05:48,057 Speaker 1: so intentional about what you share. Can you talk about 84 00:05:48,097 --> 00:05:51,097 Speaker 1: the intentionality and how you're able to do it? I 85 00:05:51,217 --> 00:05:54,177 Speaker 1: see myself as many things. I am a writer, but 86 00:05:54,337 --> 00:05:56,857 Speaker 1: I'm also a curator. You know in a sense, that's 87 00:05:56,857 --> 00:05:59,417 Speaker 1: what I'm doing on my Instagram page. I'm a tourist, 88 00:05:59,537 --> 00:06:04,537 Speaker 1: I'm very sensual, I love beauty. These are the fundamentals 89 00:06:04,537 --> 00:06:08,297 Speaker 1: of my personality, and these are the ways in which 90 00:06:08,937 --> 00:06:11,977 Speaker 1: I makes sense of world, makes sense of my life, 91 00:06:12,057 --> 00:06:16,497 Speaker 1: and find that joy a miss the pain. My next 92 00:06:16,537 --> 00:06:22,257 Speaker 1: book is about being of a generation where we literally 93 00:06:22,337 --> 00:06:25,577 Speaker 1: saw the Internet. Bro we grew with it right and 94 00:06:25,617 --> 00:06:28,177 Speaker 1: when we first interacted with this place, it was about 95 00:06:28,297 --> 00:06:30,937 Speaker 1: chat room, it was about connection. It was about hey, like, 96 00:06:31,017 --> 00:06:34,057 Speaker 1: what's this weird thing? And we are the only generation 97 00:06:34,217 --> 00:06:39,737 Speaker 1: who really had a complete perspective of that journey from 98 00:06:40,497 --> 00:06:43,457 Speaker 1: a place of connection to a place of commodification. How 99 00:06:43,457 --> 00:06:46,457 Speaker 1: do I commodify myself? How do I brand myself? You know, 100 00:06:46,577 --> 00:06:50,417 Speaker 1: we're constantly told as as creative people, as writers, that 101 00:06:50,497 --> 00:06:53,377 Speaker 1: you have to have a presence on the Internet in 102 00:06:53,537 --> 00:06:56,697 Speaker 1: order to have a career. I questioned that, like, I'm like, 103 00:06:56,857 --> 00:06:58,537 Speaker 1: is that true or is that something we're just being 104 00:06:58,577 --> 00:07:01,897 Speaker 1: told so that we play the game. The Internet for 105 00:07:02,057 --> 00:07:05,537 Speaker 1: me has always been about connection. There was a point 106 00:07:05,577 --> 00:07:07,777 Speaker 1: like two years ago when I was just like what 107 00:07:08,057 --> 00:07:12,417 Speaker 1: is this fool? Like, I have anxiety? What is this place? 108 00:07:12,497 --> 00:07:14,177 Speaker 1: Is like a place for me to go and feel 109 00:07:14,217 --> 00:07:17,417 Speaker 1: anxious about posting a selfie like this is not the 110 00:07:17,457 --> 00:07:20,617 Speaker 1: connection that I'm looking for. And so it was through 111 00:07:20,777 --> 00:07:23,497 Speaker 1: that discomfort and trying to figure out a way to 112 00:07:23,537 --> 00:07:27,137 Speaker 1: get that same vibe I had as a kid and 113 00:07:27,177 --> 00:07:31,417 Speaker 1: a teenager. People will send me messages about how these 114 00:07:31,457 --> 00:07:34,297 Speaker 1: images have meant so much to them, and I love 115 00:07:34,337 --> 00:07:36,177 Speaker 1: to hear that, and I think the gag for me 116 00:07:36,257 --> 00:07:39,577 Speaker 1: is that the same you know, like this is also 117 00:07:39,817 --> 00:07:41,937 Speaker 1: feeding me as much as it's feeding other people. And 118 00:07:41,977 --> 00:07:44,137 Speaker 1: that's the thing that I go to the internet forth 119 00:07:44,217 --> 00:07:48,537 Speaker 1: and again, like I can post these images about what 120 00:07:48,577 --> 00:07:51,377 Speaker 1: it means to struggle with your mental health and then 121 00:07:51,457 --> 00:07:55,897 Speaker 1: get hundreds of messages from black women who are like, wow, girl, same, 122 00:07:56,257 --> 00:07:59,017 Speaker 1: thank you so much. I feel seen. That is what 123 00:07:59,177 --> 00:08:02,457 Speaker 1: I think keeps me online. No, I'm the same way. 124 00:08:02,657 --> 00:08:06,017 Speaker 1: I mean the community and the response of the engagement 125 00:08:06,057 --> 00:08:08,857 Speaker 1: it fortifies you in such a real way. You speak 126 00:08:08,857 --> 00:08:12,497 Speaker 1: to that clearly in your introduction. I have your book 127 00:08:12,537 --> 00:08:16,817 Speaker 1: here is like highlighted this like all the tabs, and 128 00:08:17,057 --> 00:08:19,377 Speaker 1: there is this one line that like stood out to me, 129 00:08:19,737 --> 00:08:22,697 Speaker 1: and you say all this to say, the essays in 130 00:08:22,737 --> 00:08:25,497 Speaker 1: this book came together as I fell apart, and writing 131 00:08:25,537 --> 00:08:28,617 Speaker 1: about black women is the thing that put me together again, 132 00:08:28,857 --> 00:08:31,737 Speaker 1: that got me through, that helped me become reacquainted with 133 00:08:31,777 --> 00:08:34,857 Speaker 1: the concept of joy and freedom. And I think that's 134 00:08:34,937 --> 00:08:39,417 Speaker 1: all what you're speaking to. The Black women. Us together collectively, 135 00:08:39,657 --> 00:08:42,417 Speaker 1: uplift each other and encourage each other, help us see 136 00:08:42,457 --> 00:08:45,057 Speaker 1: the vision and affirm one another. And when it all 137 00:08:45,057 --> 00:08:48,217 Speaker 1: seems bleak and dark and at times hopeless, you know, 138 00:08:49,857 --> 00:08:53,057 Speaker 1: I would love to speak to that experience of just 139 00:08:53,097 --> 00:08:55,977 Speaker 1: like the collective love that we have from one another, 140 00:08:56,377 --> 00:08:59,697 Speaker 1: and how you've been able to not only create this 141 00:08:59,777 --> 00:09:03,617 Speaker 1: beautiful book in this career, but how your mental health 142 00:09:03,697 --> 00:09:06,737 Speaker 1: has been able to be boosted, you know. And it 143 00:09:06,777 --> 00:09:10,457 Speaker 1: feels like a simple thing, but it can be life saving. Yeah, yeah, 144 00:09:10,737 --> 00:09:14,737 Speaker 1: really can. For me. More than anything, what it gives 145 00:09:14,777 --> 00:09:19,257 Speaker 1: me is purpose being someone who is in a save 146 00:09:19,257 --> 00:09:22,817 Speaker 1: of depression and a save of anxiety. I need purpose 147 00:09:22,937 --> 00:09:25,857 Speaker 1: to sort of center myself and miss that storm, you know, 148 00:09:26,577 --> 00:09:31,297 Speaker 1: Like I know, ultimately when I write, it's something ancestral, 149 00:09:31,377 --> 00:09:35,097 Speaker 1: it's something bigger than me. And centering my writing specifically 150 00:09:35,257 --> 00:09:43,537 Speaker 1: on celebrating and spotlighting and just like expanding stories about 151 00:09:43,577 --> 00:09:47,617 Speaker 1: black women. I know that is my purpose and that's 152 00:09:47,657 --> 00:09:50,897 Speaker 1: the thing that makes the writing worth it, because writing 153 00:09:51,017 --> 00:09:56,577 Speaker 1: is a hard It is a hard, yes, if you 154 00:09:56,617 --> 00:10:00,057 Speaker 1: don't have that thing that makes it worth it. And 155 00:10:00,137 --> 00:10:04,057 Speaker 1: that thing could be whatever, though I see now more 156 00:10:04,097 --> 00:10:06,697 Speaker 1: than ever it can't be money. It can't be cloud. 157 00:10:06,937 --> 00:10:09,737 Speaker 1: That can't be the reason that you write. It's not sustainable. 158 00:10:09,897 --> 00:10:12,697 Speaker 1: It has to be about something outside of you, something 159 00:10:12,737 --> 00:10:15,737 Speaker 1: that's not tied at all to your ego. And I 160 00:10:15,777 --> 00:10:18,777 Speaker 1: think in the moments when I'm like the least attached 161 00:10:18,817 --> 00:10:22,217 Speaker 1: to my ego, I'm able to see through my pain 162 00:10:22,257 --> 00:10:26,177 Speaker 1: and my depression and get to the heart of matter. 163 00:10:27,257 --> 00:10:43,097 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Zeba Blay. I'm Glory Adam, 164 00:10:43,177 --> 00:10:46,457 Speaker 1: and you're listening to well read black Girl Today. I'm 165 00:10:46,457 --> 00:10:50,297 Speaker 1: talking to authors Zeba Blay, who's twenty twenty one debut 166 00:10:50,297 --> 00:10:53,497 Speaker 1: book Care for You. Black Girls, A Celebration of Black 167 00:10:53,497 --> 00:10:56,697 Speaker 1: Women in Pop Culture, is a thought provoking series of 168 00:10:56,817 --> 00:11:03,497 Speaker 1: essays centered on black life. I want to talk about 169 00:11:03,897 --> 00:11:07,297 Speaker 1: You mentioned curation earlier, and I agree you are a 170 00:11:07,377 --> 00:11:11,217 Speaker 1: wonderful curator and I loved how you set up these essays. 171 00:11:11,297 --> 00:11:13,777 Speaker 1: Can you talk about the structure and why you decided 172 00:11:14,097 --> 00:11:17,497 Speaker 1: to start off with Bodies and then closed with Free 173 00:11:17,537 --> 00:11:20,377 Speaker 1: of Cares. Can you talk about the process of putting 174 00:11:20,377 --> 00:11:22,977 Speaker 1: it together and what motivated you? It was definitely a 175 00:11:23,057 --> 00:11:27,577 Speaker 1: process because some of these essays I didn't even want 176 00:11:27,777 --> 00:11:30,577 Speaker 1: to be in the book, or like, because there were 177 00:11:30,617 --> 00:11:32,817 Speaker 1: like there's like four more essays that could have been 178 00:11:32,817 --> 00:11:35,297 Speaker 1: in the book. It was kind of like a puzzle 179 00:11:35,377 --> 00:11:38,017 Speaker 1: to figuring out what made sense in this overall theme 180 00:11:38,977 --> 00:11:41,057 Speaker 1: that felt like it only made sense in my head. 181 00:11:41,217 --> 00:11:43,257 Speaker 1: Initially the book was going to start with the Cardi 182 00:11:43,297 --> 00:11:46,137 Speaker 1: b chapter, and then it just felt like it made 183 00:11:46,177 --> 00:11:49,617 Speaker 1: more sense to start with the bodies because I feel 184 00:11:49,657 --> 00:11:53,177 Speaker 1: like when we talk about the black women in pop culture, 185 00:11:53,737 --> 00:11:57,177 Speaker 1: the body is often such a huge part of that discussion, 186 00:11:57,217 --> 00:11:59,177 Speaker 1: and so I sort of wanted to have that set 187 00:11:59,217 --> 00:12:02,337 Speaker 1: the tone. And then I always knew that Free of 188 00:12:02,417 --> 00:12:05,217 Speaker 1: Cares was going to be the last chapter in the 189 00:12:05,257 --> 00:12:07,977 Speaker 1: book because I was building towards white care free black 190 00:12:07,977 --> 00:12:11,497 Speaker 1: girls even means, and I like that it's the last 191 00:12:11,537 --> 00:12:13,857 Speaker 1: chapter that I wrote. It was the hardest chapter that 192 00:12:13,897 --> 00:12:16,897 Speaker 1: I wrote. Is a chapter that is definitely doing a 193 00:12:16,897 --> 00:12:21,017 Speaker 1: lot of things. There is what it's working. Yeah, for 194 00:12:21,057 --> 00:12:23,217 Speaker 1: those whoever they're the book. Yeah, can you give us 195 00:12:23,257 --> 00:12:27,897 Speaker 1: like a summary of that closing chapter. That closing chapter 196 00:12:29,097 --> 00:12:33,577 Speaker 1: opens talking about the phrase I'm free white in twenty 197 00:12:33,617 --> 00:12:37,417 Speaker 1: one that used to be a staple in old Hollywood movies. 198 00:12:37,497 --> 00:12:40,457 Speaker 1: And then from there we moved to talking about the 199 00:12:40,537 --> 00:12:43,937 Speaker 1: carefree BlackGirl movement itself. You know, what that even was? 200 00:12:44,617 --> 00:12:47,617 Speaker 1: What hashtags even do? Then we go into talking about 201 00:12:47,937 --> 00:12:53,177 Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor and her presence on the internet online, and 202 00:12:53,217 --> 00:12:57,177 Speaker 1: then the nmification of her name, and like grappling with 203 00:12:57,297 --> 00:13:01,697 Speaker 1: whether that actually means justice. I think for me, like 204 00:13:01,857 --> 00:13:05,657 Speaker 1: carefree black Girls was a hashtag that when it became 205 00:13:05,777 --> 00:13:08,617 Speaker 1: very popular a few years ago, there was a lot 206 00:13:08,617 --> 00:13:10,697 Speaker 1: of critique of it, you know, And it was that 207 00:13:10,857 --> 00:13:13,017 Speaker 1: critique of it that I was interested in. I'm less 208 00:13:13,057 --> 00:13:16,417 Speaker 1: interested in the girl with the three sea hair in 209 00:13:16,497 --> 00:13:19,217 Speaker 1: the crochet top and the flower crown, like that is 210 00:13:19,257 --> 00:13:21,097 Speaker 1: one thing, But I want to talk about why that 211 00:13:21,177 --> 00:13:23,737 Speaker 1: image is even conjured up for some people, you know. 212 00:13:24,297 --> 00:13:27,657 Speaker 1: So the chapter is really just a meditation on white 213 00:13:28,217 --> 00:13:33,337 Speaker 1: means to be free in a society that is fundamentally unfree, 214 00:13:33,457 --> 00:13:36,097 Speaker 1: you know. And that's a big question that I don't 215 00:13:36,097 --> 00:13:39,097 Speaker 1: fully answer, But I like that you know. No. I 216 00:13:39,177 --> 00:13:41,617 Speaker 1: think what that chapter does too is just open up 217 00:13:41,657 --> 00:13:45,377 Speaker 1: all these different possibilities. And again you talk about so 218 00:13:45,417 --> 00:13:48,297 Speaker 1: many things, and you close with the Kambahi River Collective 219 00:13:48,617 --> 00:13:51,617 Speaker 1: and this idea of, you know, the destruction of all 220 00:13:51,657 --> 00:13:54,577 Speaker 1: systems of oppression, and then you plainly say that destruction 221 00:13:54,617 --> 00:13:58,297 Speaker 1: begins with me. I love that kind of just like 222 00:13:58,417 --> 00:14:01,137 Speaker 1: freedom on the page, because you're asking questions that you 223 00:14:01,177 --> 00:14:04,017 Speaker 1: don't know the answer too necessarily, but you're not afraid 224 00:14:04,097 --> 00:14:06,937 Speaker 1: to ask them nonetheless, you know. Yeah. And I like 225 00:14:07,097 --> 00:14:10,057 Speaker 1: that you said that freedom on the page because I 226 00:14:10,097 --> 00:14:13,937 Speaker 1: think the whole time I was writing this book, I 227 00:14:13,977 --> 00:14:15,937 Speaker 1: was trying to be free on the page, and I 228 00:14:16,057 --> 00:14:19,297 Speaker 1: knew that I was holding myself back, and I was 229 00:14:19,337 --> 00:14:21,537 Speaker 1: in that chapter that I feel like I finally let 230 00:14:21,577 --> 00:14:26,497 Speaker 1: go a little bit. I feel like, when it comes 231 00:14:26,497 --> 00:14:30,217 Speaker 1: to your criticism, when it comes to your vulnerability, you 232 00:14:30,297 --> 00:14:33,217 Speaker 1: have a clarity about who you are. How did you 233 00:14:33,257 --> 00:14:36,857 Speaker 1: cultivate that honesty and that clarity? You know? I thought 234 00:14:36,857 --> 00:14:39,937 Speaker 1: about that a lot in the time since the book 235 00:14:39,977 --> 00:14:42,857 Speaker 1: has come out, because when I write, I just write. 236 00:14:42,897 --> 00:14:45,217 Speaker 1: I just have to keep going, you know, I can't 237 00:14:45,257 --> 00:14:48,057 Speaker 1: look back. And I think that's part of why I'm 238 00:14:48,097 --> 00:14:52,057 Speaker 1: able to do that because anytime that I write, I'm 239 00:14:52,137 --> 00:14:54,577 Speaker 1: trying to be honest. I'm not even trying to be good. 240 00:14:54,737 --> 00:15:00,337 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be honest with myself, and honestly 241 00:15:00,457 --> 00:15:03,897 Speaker 1: takes an ability to let the thing out and not 242 00:15:04,097 --> 00:15:08,177 Speaker 1: dwell on it, you know. So there's that I think also, 243 00:15:09,257 --> 00:15:12,817 Speaker 1: being vulnerable for me hasn't always been about bravery, but 244 00:15:12,977 --> 00:15:16,897 Speaker 1: has been more about survival. Like I grew up in 245 00:15:17,057 --> 00:15:22,017 Speaker 1: a family where everything was hidden, no one talked about 246 00:15:22,057 --> 00:15:25,097 Speaker 1: how they felt or what they were going through, And 247 00:15:25,177 --> 00:15:28,817 Speaker 1: now in my adulthood, I can look back and see 248 00:15:29,457 --> 00:15:34,097 Speaker 1: the damage that that did personally to myself, to my family, 249 00:15:34,217 --> 00:15:36,297 Speaker 1: and the damage that that does to all of us. 250 00:15:36,417 --> 00:15:39,897 Speaker 1: And so there was a point in my life as 251 00:15:39,897 --> 00:15:42,497 Speaker 1: a writer where I knew that if I didn't share 252 00:15:42,817 --> 00:15:45,457 Speaker 1: what I was grappling with, what I was thinking about, 253 00:15:45,497 --> 00:15:49,057 Speaker 1: what my days were, I would die, you know, to 254 00:15:49,097 --> 00:15:52,497 Speaker 1: be quite honest. And so for me, it's always been 255 00:15:52,617 --> 00:15:59,057 Speaker 1: about resisting the need to disappear, you know. I think 256 00:15:59,097 --> 00:16:01,857 Speaker 1: that that's it's such a brave testimony to your work, 257 00:16:02,537 --> 00:16:04,217 Speaker 1: and I'd be curious to hear if you would define 258 00:16:04,217 --> 00:16:06,537 Speaker 1: it this way. But I do feel like your work 259 00:16:06,577 --> 00:16:10,977 Speaker 1: serves as a type of activism. And I'm thinking of 260 00:16:11,017 --> 00:16:14,497 Speaker 1: the piece that you did about the woman who made 261 00:16:14,497 --> 00:16:19,137 Speaker 1: the false allegation mark. Yes, that piece was bookmarked, okay, 262 00:16:20,097 --> 00:16:23,497 Speaker 1: But what you wrote was so pointed in like very clear, 263 00:16:23,657 --> 00:16:26,697 Speaker 1: like your stance, your ideology, how you felt about the situation, 264 00:16:26,977 --> 00:16:28,857 Speaker 1: but also the facts of the case. I mean even 265 00:16:28,857 --> 00:16:31,217 Speaker 1: the title of it was Amy Cooper and knew exactly 266 00:16:31,217 --> 00:16:34,177 Speaker 1: what she was doing. You speak to like what motivated 267 00:16:34,217 --> 00:16:36,097 Speaker 1: you to write that and how you were able to 268 00:16:36,177 --> 00:16:40,057 Speaker 1: really encourage other people to like, hey, this isn't okay. Yeah, 269 00:16:40,177 --> 00:16:43,177 Speaker 1: we can't let this happen. That was written at her post. 270 00:16:43,657 --> 00:16:46,057 Speaker 1: I was there for about five or six years, and 271 00:16:46,097 --> 00:16:47,897 Speaker 1: that was a time in my life as a writer 272 00:16:47,937 --> 00:16:50,537 Speaker 1: when I was writing a lot of think pieces and 273 00:16:50,657 --> 00:16:54,697 Speaker 1: quick hits on sort of like the racism of the day, 274 00:16:54,937 --> 00:16:59,217 Speaker 1: and often I made myself feel as if I had 275 00:16:59,257 --> 00:17:04,097 Speaker 1: to explain you know, that essay could have literally just 276 00:17:04,177 --> 00:17:06,097 Speaker 1: been one sense, like it was a sentence I knew 277 00:17:06,137 --> 00:17:08,377 Speaker 1: that had to be in there was like white people 278 00:17:08,697 --> 00:17:12,097 Speaker 1: are aware of racism, like they know what exists and 279 00:17:12,137 --> 00:17:16,417 Speaker 1: they actively participate in it. And that situation was a 280 00:17:16,457 --> 00:17:20,257 Speaker 1: prime example. So let's stop playing games. I'm gonna write 281 00:17:20,257 --> 00:17:22,817 Speaker 1: this piece and I'm going to call you out. You know, yes, 282 00:17:23,217 --> 00:17:25,657 Speaker 1: And that was a piece that I'm really proud of. Actually, 283 00:17:25,737 --> 00:17:28,017 Speaker 1: if we talk about pride, because I was like, I'm 284 00:17:28,057 --> 00:17:30,697 Speaker 1: done explaining. I'm tired of explaining. We explained all of 285 00:17:30,697 --> 00:17:35,657 Speaker 1: twenty twenty six and y'all don't care, right, right, So 286 00:17:35,777 --> 00:17:38,577 Speaker 1: call a thing you had the reckoning. Yeah, I'm the 287 00:17:38,577 --> 00:17:41,337 Speaker 1: same way too, Like I like to be uncomfortable at times, 288 00:17:41,377 --> 00:17:45,577 Speaker 1: to be uncertain, because what those moments and those feelings 289 00:17:45,897 --> 00:17:49,497 Speaker 1: lead to our real transformation. Like if you don't know something, 290 00:17:49,697 --> 00:17:51,177 Speaker 1: that means you have to go out and seek it 291 00:17:51,257 --> 00:17:53,417 Speaker 1: and understand and really sit with it and to take 292 00:17:53,457 --> 00:17:56,057 Speaker 1: it back to your book. I feel that like it's 293 00:17:56,057 --> 00:17:59,297 Speaker 1: okay for you not to have this like perfect understanding 294 00:17:59,337 --> 00:18:01,417 Speaker 1: of something you can learn. You can learn it and 295 00:18:02,097 --> 00:18:05,497 Speaker 1: become a better self. What are the things you feel 296 00:18:05,497 --> 00:18:09,937 Speaker 1: like you're still learning? What's inspiring you right now? I 297 00:18:10,017 --> 00:18:15,217 Speaker 1: think as a writer, I am still learning how to 298 00:18:15,337 --> 00:18:19,057 Speaker 1: let go. I think when I write, I have a 299 00:18:19,177 --> 00:18:23,057 Speaker 1: long process of just like getting over myself so that 300 00:18:23,097 --> 00:18:25,537 Speaker 1: I can get to the page. And it was very 301 00:18:25,537 --> 00:18:28,377 Speaker 1: difficult in writing this book, and it's getting a little easier. 302 00:18:28,537 --> 00:18:33,537 Speaker 1: But it's a process letting go. As a process, I'm 303 00:18:33,617 --> 00:18:40,137 Speaker 1: learning how to mother myself, take care of myself. And 304 00:18:40,297 --> 00:18:42,817 Speaker 1: I want to like write more books. I want to, 305 00:18:42,857 --> 00:18:45,457 Speaker 1: you know, write TV shows. I want to write movies. 306 00:18:45,457 --> 00:18:48,977 Speaker 1: And that is this whole new world that I'm entering 307 00:18:49,017 --> 00:18:51,417 Speaker 1: that I'm figuring out. I think those are the main 308 00:18:51,457 --> 00:18:54,777 Speaker 1: things that I'm learning. But there's like a lesson every day. 309 00:18:54,897 --> 00:19:01,657 Speaker 1: You know. Hi, I'm Zeba Blay and you're listening to 310 00:19:01,817 --> 00:19:17,977 Speaker 1: well read black Girl. Okay, it's time for rapid fire up. Okay, okay, okay. 311 00:19:18,017 --> 00:19:20,177 Speaker 1: So we're gonna just ask you a bunch of questions 312 00:19:20,257 --> 00:19:23,457 Speaker 1: and just like first answer, it comes to mind. First, 313 00:19:23,497 --> 00:19:30,497 Speaker 1: one favorite character from the TV show Girlfriends and why, oh, okay, Joan. 314 00:19:31,137 --> 00:19:34,577 Speaker 1: I know people don't like Joan for whatever reason, but 315 00:19:34,737 --> 00:19:37,777 Speaker 1: I just like a goofy black girl. You know. Oh 316 00:19:37,817 --> 00:19:41,497 Speaker 1: that's good. Okay, Name three items on your desk. One 317 00:19:41,857 --> 00:19:46,217 Speaker 1: is a little triptic tarot spread that my friend Kevin 318 00:19:46,257 --> 00:19:49,337 Speaker 1: gave me. And then I have a copy of Carefree 319 00:19:49,377 --> 00:19:52,137 Speaker 1: Black Girls, because that's like my motivations, Like, girl, you 320 00:19:52,177 --> 00:19:56,217 Speaker 1: wrote a book. And then I have an hourglass that 321 00:19:56,377 --> 00:19:59,857 Speaker 1: I like to use because I'm a procrastinator. That sound good. 322 00:19:59,897 --> 00:20:06,497 Speaker 1: Maybe I need al Oh favorite Ghanaian dish? Oh my god, 323 00:20:06,897 --> 00:20:11,297 Speaker 1: how can I choose? Oh? Okay, so favorite deaf is 324 00:20:11,657 --> 00:20:17,537 Speaker 1: uh banquein Okra soup. And then probably red Red which 325 00:20:17,577 --> 00:20:21,097 Speaker 1: is plantains and beans and foodfu. Of course, who doesn't 326 00:20:21,097 --> 00:20:23,657 Speaker 1: love foo? Yeah? I know food food so good? I 327 00:20:24,257 --> 00:20:28,897 Speaker 1: like five are all it's all good. It's all good. Um. 328 00:20:29,137 --> 00:20:31,377 Speaker 1: Name a movie that never gets old that you can 329 00:20:31,377 --> 00:20:35,497 Speaker 1: watch over and over and over and over again. Probably 330 00:20:37,337 --> 00:20:45,297 Speaker 1: Jimani not so cute waiting to exhale. What is better 331 00:20:45,657 --> 00:20:49,697 Speaker 1: the book or the movie? Okay, this is this is tricky. 332 00:20:50,017 --> 00:20:52,817 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to say the movie is better. I'm sorry, 333 00:20:53,057 --> 00:20:57,417 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I know it's it's I know it's so 334 00:20:57,457 --> 00:21:03,177 Speaker 1: hard because like Angela Bass Whitney Houston. Yeah, yeah, like 335 00:21:03,857 --> 00:21:07,657 Speaker 1: the visuals are so and then the soundtrack like all 336 00:21:07,657 --> 00:21:10,137 Speaker 1: of it just a great story. Maybe we'll just bring 337 00:21:10,177 --> 00:21:13,337 Speaker 1: you back for every episode. Well I talk about every 338 00:21:13,337 --> 00:21:18,617 Speaker 1: book and every movie. Oh my goodness. Well I'm so again. 339 00:21:18,657 --> 00:21:21,257 Speaker 1: I'm so happy. I'm like you are part of our 340 00:21:21,257 --> 00:21:24,097 Speaker 1: community forever and always. I'm so glad that we're on 341 00:21:24,137 --> 00:21:27,577 Speaker 1: our first season of our podcast, and like, it's just 342 00:21:27,857 --> 00:21:30,017 Speaker 1: I'm really really grateful for your work and just for you, 343 00:21:30,177 --> 00:21:32,697 Speaker 1: just like you as a person, as a human, and 344 00:21:32,857 --> 00:21:39,657 Speaker 1: like I'm grateful, thank you for having me. Whenever I 345 00:21:39,737 --> 00:21:42,937 Speaker 1: talk with Ziba, I'm reminded how important it is to 346 00:21:43,057 --> 00:21:46,737 Speaker 1: tell your story, no matter how scary it can be. 347 00:21:47,497 --> 00:21:50,497 Speaker 1: As black women, we need to take care of ourselves 348 00:21:50,617 --> 00:21:53,457 Speaker 1: and continue to create spaces where we take care of 349 00:21:53,497 --> 00:21:56,977 Speaker 1: each other. Ziba shows us how we put ourselves back 350 00:21:57,017 --> 00:22:02,497 Speaker 1: together through literature, one page at a time. Her debut book, 351 00:22:02,817 --> 00:22:05,617 Speaker 1: care Free Black Girls, a celebration of Black women in 352 00:22:05,657 --> 00:22:10,097 Speaker 1: pop culture, is out now. In our next episode, I'll 353 00:22:10,137 --> 00:22:22,097 Speaker 1: be joined by author Disha fill y'all well read black Girl. 354 00:22:22,177 --> 00:22:25,857 Speaker 1: It's a production of Pushkin Industries. It is written and 355 00:22:25,937 --> 00:22:30,257 Speaker 1: hosted by me Glory Dam and produced by Cher Vincent 356 00:22:30,377 --> 00:22:35,537 Speaker 1: and Brittany Brown. Our associate editor is Keishall Williams. Our 357 00:22:35,617 --> 00:22:40,417 Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. 358 00:22:42,337 --> 00:22:46,657 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Miya Lobel and Leet Hall Molad 359 00:22:47,257 --> 00:22:52,177 Speaker 1: at Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Fane Carl Migliori Jason Gambrel, 360 00:22:52,657 --> 00:22:59,417 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Jen Goera, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. You 361 00:22:59,457 --> 00:23:02,097 Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Well read 362 00:23:02,137 --> 00:23:05,057 Speaker 1: black Girl. You can find pushkin and all social media 363 00:23:05,097 --> 00:23:08,137 Speaker 1: platforms at pushkin Pods, and you can sign up for 364 00:23:08,177 --> 00:23:12,137 Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot Fm. If you love this 365 00:23:12,137 --> 00:23:16,657 Speaker 1: show and others from Pushkin industry, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. 366 00:23:17,137 --> 00:23:20,897 Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content 367 00:23:20,977 --> 00:23:25,017 Speaker 1: and uninterrupted listening for four ninety nine a month. Look 368 00:23:25,057 --> 00:23:28,817 Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you're 369 00:23:28,817 --> 00:23:32,057 Speaker 1: already a subscriber, make sure to check out my exclusive 370 00:23:32,137 --> 00:23:36,697 Speaker 1: Bookmark series on Pushkin Plus. Starting on February eighteenth. You'll 371 00:23:36,737 --> 00:23:40,817 Speaker 1: hear extended interviews with book club members, bookstore owners, and more. 372 00:23:41,777 --> 00:23:43,737 Speaker 1: And do you get to hear what's on my mind, 373 00:23:44,017 --> 00:23:47,337 Speaker 1: What's on my radar, and of course what's on my 374 00:23:47,417 --> 00:23:51,977 Speaker 1: reading list each week. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen 375 00:23:52,017 --> 00:23:56,217 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to 376 00:23:56,297 --> 00:23:56,617 Speaker 1: listen