WEBVTT - Degrowth with Andrew, Part 1 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.000 Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night, Hello, and welcome. 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:11.960 So it could happen here. It is three pm in 0:00:11.960 --> 0:00:14.240 the winter, so it's all of those at once over here. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:19.400 That is true. That is true. It just seven cords here. 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:28.800 It's regular evening time. Yeah, no winter included, you know, 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:35.800 just rain and hot that's the two moods of the weather. Yeah. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.440 Which winter is it right now? Is did rain winter 0:00:38.520 --> 0:00:45.120 or hot winter? Neither? There's no winter winters never. Well, 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:48.000 I hope that winter never comes to the island. If 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.440 it does, I think will be in some deep ship, 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:57.280 you know. If you guys get snow. It's time Frestle 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:01.440 to reevaluate our practices when they happen. Absolutely, that means 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:08.480 the parrots have migrated to Alaska. Ok. Ahead, they do 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:10.520 a lot of movements around the evening time, so I 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:13.000 wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pack up and 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:17.600 leave us all behind. Well, this is it could happen here, 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.920 as as you might be aware. A podcast about things 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:25.520 falling apart, and today's episode is brought to us by 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:32.800 Andrew Hello of the Youtue Journal Andrewism. Just avoid confusion 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:38.000 with other Andrews, you know, abuse Yeah, that's right, son 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.039 of the Queen. Yeah. You know you can talk about 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:43.640 Prince Andrew, you can talk about and your teeth. You know, 0:01:43.680 --> 0:01:48.080 it's like distinguished myself, you know. Yeah, you're the best, Andrew. 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:54.000 I appreciate that anytime, buddy. So I'd like to spend 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:58.000 some time today tonight what is time really and to 0:01:58.040 --> 0:02:00.680 talk about the concept of d group, you know, where 0:02:00.680 --> 0:02:03.560 it comes from, what it means, what it needs, and 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.880 a lot other fun stuff. Are you guys familiar with 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:13.120 the growth as as a concept? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:16.600 I mean, and it's yeah, I I please, please, I mean, 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.080 it's one of those things that gets a lot of 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.560 like uh flak on one hand for people saying that 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.680 it's basically eco fascism, and then you have folks being like, no, 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.639 it's a it's a perfectly reasonable response to the kind 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.680 of endless growth attitude that got us into the environmental 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:39.960 catastrophe we're currently experiencing. That's yeah. I think that UM 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.920 haven't released a video on de growth last week, and 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:49.160 having read through some of the comments have received, I've 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:55.200 come to the conclusion that there's no getting through to 0:02:55.280 --> 0:03:01.600 some people. Yeah. People, people love to listen to like 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:03.600 a third of what you say and then get really 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.040 angry at what they think you said. Every time we 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.080 talk about like the value of of things like you know, 0:03:09.120 --> 0:03:12.760 the four Thieves Vinegar Collective, you know, hacking different medicines 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:15.880 or training people being medics. Somebody hops on the subret 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:17.880 and said, I think it's kind of able. Is that 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:20.680 they think that, you know, people can replace doctors with 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:23.240 with street medics. No one, no one's ever made that case. 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.520 That that's not a thing that anyone has ever said. 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.200 I'm going to make it my entire life mission to 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:34.320 only specifically make this case some gauze and water in 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:39.000 a bag. Yeah, yeah, doctors, but they must all die 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.000 when the revolution comes. They will only be replaced the 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.320 street that X. It's gonna be great. I'm texting all 0:03:43.320 --> 0:03:47.960 of this to our friends Covet right now. Dr Hda. Yeah, 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.080 it's just it's just ridiculous. So people would literally project 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:53.840 what they think you said onto what you actually said. 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:57.200 It's very very obvious when it's taken place. I don't 0:03:57.200 --> 0:03:59.640 know how they don't feel embarrassed. You know, a lot 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:02.720 of times I barely comment on things, I barely respond 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.560 to things, and when I do I check and recheck 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:07.960 and re check what the person has said. Then I 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.280 check and recheck and recheck what I see before I 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.480 get the statement, because I don't know how do not 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:19.279 feel embarrassed? Yeah, like everybody who has watched the video conceded. 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:23.120 You haven't watched it. It's just had like a term 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:28.159 search and then appeared and yeah and like that. Yeah, 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.520 come to engage you pretty much pretty much. But I mean, 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:34.520 if I were to be asleep for the algorithm, I 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.640 would say all that engagement helps, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.880 sure it does. It helps. It helps one thing for sure, Yeah, 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:46.040 and help get up to a better place. Unfortunately, And 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.719 speaking of things that do not help us get to 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:52.359 a better place, I think it's the growth primarily is 0:04:52.400 --> 0:05:00.120 about confronting this destructive ideology of growth. Is m know, 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:03.080 something we see all around us, something we interact with 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.640 a failure regular basis. You see the images of the 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:10.760 Amazon rainfor us being cut down to be um, turning 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.520 into soy farms until eventually it's made into a cattle 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.680 grease in fields. You talk about the constant expansion of 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:22.960 oil infrastructure. You talk about the constant expansion of mining operations. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.800 You talk about the continued rise of fast fashion, that 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:31.279 people are extremely defensive whenever you try to criticize it. 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:37.359 All of these systems, all of these industries, all of 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:43.240 these practices uh part of part and parcel, or rather 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:49.320 products of this ideology of growthism that capitalism is driven by. 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:53.800 And I know it may be strange for some people 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:58.960 to sort of the program from this idea of growth 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:07.159 is like a aulterated could uncontroversially positive because you know, 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.240 natures like all about growth, right. You know, when you 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:11.800 think of growth, you think of a plant speaking out 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.599 to the soil. You think of a baby kitten growing 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:17.600 up to be a cat. You talk about like babies 0:06:17.640 --> 0:06:22.320 becoming toddlers, becoming young children, becoming older children becoming you know, 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.400 tweens and teens and then finally adults and then from 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:33.760 there Joe Biden, Um, but you know, there's this whole 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.360 idea of growth, and that growth is like a natural 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:39.640 part of life. Not as true, but growth in life 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.880 does not go on and on and on and on. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.960 You know, organisms grew up to a certain point and 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.640 then they maintain a healthy equilibrium, or at least they 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:52.640 try to. Um. Of course, health is not necessarily a 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.880 natural state of affairs, because viruses are just as natural 0:06:56.920 --> 0:06:59.960 as the cells they attack. And then you can also 0:07:00.000 --> 0:07:04.480 get all uh femeral and talk about postal growth and 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:08.120 our life is a constant journey of personal growth and whatever. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.960 But speaking materially, we can physically, growth has a limit. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:17.600 People grow up to certain height, certain size, and so on, 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.640 and when growth doesn't stop, that's when we start running 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.000 into problems. As I understand, the reason that cancer is 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:27.280 so difficult to cure is because your own body turning 0:07:27.320 --> 0:07:30.320 against you. It's your it's some of the many trillions 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:34.200 of your own cells deciding okay, time to just grow 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:39.400 and grow and grow without limit. And what happens in 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.720 most of those cases, and many of those cases rather unfortunately, 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:47.600 people die as a result. Say our bodies and our 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:50.640 own bodies. We understand that growth is not always positive, 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:56.040 and yet that's sick. Logic of growth for its own 0:07:56.080 --> 0:08:01.520 sake is exactly what the global economy relies on. So 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.640 that's just think that's too much growth, too much money, 0:08:03.680 --> 0:08:06.360 too much stuff. And you have all these wealthy nations 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.720 to continue to expand and grow and attempt to hoard. 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.760 I heard one person use the analogy a Camemberhood was 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.520 UM talking about how capitalism is now attempting to the 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.280 new frontiers. For capitalism is to expand and colonize our 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:26.280 own minds, UM. And so every economy, every sector, every 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.520 industry is expected to keep growing, keep growing, keep growing, 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.880 no matter what. One of the responses that I got 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:40.520 on my video on the growth is that, oh, well, 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:42.839 you're seeing that growth is this improwth? Isma is this 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.920 capitalist thing? But you know, China and USS are and 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:50.920 they grew and they industrialized, and they are just as 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:56.480 susceptible to ecological destruction and as any other capitalist country. 0:08:56.520 --> 0:09:00.560 And that is true, but that's also out of why 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:05.800 I would consider those countries to be UM state capitalist 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:11.400 projects UM and not anything close to what our envisioned. 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:16.720 But of course, the moment you introduce any idea that 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:25.480 sounds even vaguely socially oriented, even vaguely ecologically oriented, UM, 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:30.000 people automatically assume you're trying to go for like new 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:36.240 United Soviet socialist Republic. But I think we need to 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.760 explore different paths to improve in quality of life, to 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:45.280 code and code developing. And that's a tricky subject I'll 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.679 get into a bit later, But we need to think 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.800 of way as that we can help people and help 0:09:52.000 --> 0:09:58.800 people live better lives without relying on desperating the bias fare. 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.040 It's a tricky conversation to be had um because when 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.520 people think of growth, they think if it as a positive, 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:13.080 and when you criticize that positive, they think the inverse. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.280 They think, you're trying to make everybody degrade and go 0:10:16.400 --> 0:10:19.720 down to like a worst quality of life, to rush 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:25.199 back to to like a lower life expectancy, what transform 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:29.240 a mode of production back to like hunting and gathering. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:36.280 But the truth is that deep growth as a movement 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:42.160 as system of thought is more so about trying to 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:46.160 find that balance between a good quality of life for all, 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.040 not just this unequal quality of life that we see 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.240 around the world and the capitalism while also balancing the 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:57.280 fact that we live in material world. We live on 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:01.359 a planet that has limited resources. When to balance those resources, 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:08.040 we need to consider and be good stewards of, you know, 0:11:08.720 --> 0:11:16.160 uh planet that we share with other living creatures. Capitalism 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:21.920 really is driven by this ideology of growthism because it 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:27.040 is structurally incentivized structurally as a structural imperative in the 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:33.080 capitalist system. It's not exclusively driven by greed, as some 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.760 people assume. I think that's that that this idea that 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:41.480 it's all up to, like personalities, kind of hampers people's 0:11:41.480 --> 0:11:48.439 ability to analyze systems because it doesn't matter whether, um 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.680 we suddenly put each and every CEO in a position 0:11:51.760 --> 0:11:56.679 where they are all completely one hundreds of altruistics. It's 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.560 not that they're all being driven by greed. It's because 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:07.280 and the capitalism. You know, capitalists own capital, and capital 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.040 that is stagnant is capital that is losing its value, 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.240 and so they look for things to invest in so 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:19.359 they can grow their capital. Capital being anything from real estate, factories, machinery, 0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:23.160 intellectual property, financial assets. What is the money that they 0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.080 used to make more money. If it's stagnant, it's losing value, 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:30.240 and they're trying to increase its value. Um As they 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.760 see gold companies that have growing profits year after year, 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.839 so their capital will grow year after year, and if 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.880 that growth slews down, they pull out and look elsewhere 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.160 to invest. Companies that fail to grow will lose their 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:45.920 investors and collapse, And so companies do everything in their 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.640 power to maintain growth so they can maintain the investors, 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.000 regardless of how much havoc they reach upon the world. 0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.280 So if any barriers are preventing their growth, they had 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:00.679 to build those those barriers. You know, environment of protections 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:05.000 and barriers labelow as a barriers. Protections policies are barriers. 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:09.360 The commons were a barrier, Indigenous populations were a barrier, 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.160 and so on and so forth. All of these acts 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:16.679 of violence open up these new frontiers for growth, for appropriation, 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:21.840 for accumulation, and so incomes the growth. Or the French 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:25.880 term for it is the croissant um. And I know 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.480 that I likely pronounced that incorrectly. It's the French. We 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:36.360 can disrespect them precisely. I think um, things that sit 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:50.640 down reflect on their nucleuing empire um. But anyway, this 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.600 idea of the growth really first was developed. I have 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:58.560 to say that I appreciate what the intellectuals have come 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.920 up with. They're good at sit down and thinking about stuff. 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:06.600 I'll give them that. I'll give them that. So there's 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:11.360 one French intellectual guy named Andrea Course in nine seventy 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.600 two coined the Tomb Deacons Saint French for the growth 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:19.240 go has basically posed a question that remains at the 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:26.720 center of the growth, is the Earth's balance for which 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.520 no growth or even the growth of material production is 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:36.560 a necessary condition compatible with the survival of the capitalist system. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.640 I would avenge to say no, it is not in 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.920 any way compactable with this travel of the capitalist system, 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:44.720 because we have seen it in this short period of 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:50.520 time that the capitalism has existed, it has rapidly triggered 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:56.240 the capital scene, or as some people regrettably called the anthropocene, 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:00.320 it has rapidly triggered the sixth great mass ext accourn 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.040 event um. And so I do not believe that the 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.480 Earth's balance it's compatible with its survival. And so the 0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:15.280 Croissant movement of activists mainly flourished in Leon in the 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.920 early two thousand's, in the week of protests for car 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.680 free cities, communal meals in the streets, food cooperatives, and 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:28.200 campaigns against advertising. It went from France to Italy, where 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:37.440 agree and anty globalization activists h mobilized against this whole 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:45.680 concept of capitalisms constant encroachments and expansion and growth expanded 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:51.760 into Catalonia in Spain in two thousens six. It eventually 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.040 built up to the size where it could sustain a movement. 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:03.760 A magazine rather Croissant, which currently sells a few thousand 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:08.160 copies a month. Around the same time, in two thousand four, 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.720 a research and activist named France Swash Schneider took a 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:17.560 year long walking tour on a donkey to disseminated growth 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:23.200 throughout France and that received some media coverage. Eventually, Schneider 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:27.960 founded an academic collective known as Research and the Growth 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:34.440 along with Dennis Bayonne and Februarri Fleepoo, and they eventually 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:39.000 began International conferences went in Paris into those and eight, 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.640 and the second in Barcelona, so the English term d 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.560 growth was officially used for the first time at the 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.240 Paris conference, which remarked the booth of the international research 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:55.040 community around the growth. Following the success of the conferences 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.640 in Paris and Barcelona, other conferences were held in Montreal 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:04.119 in eleven, Venice in twelve, Leipzig fourteen uh and the 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.240 Growth as an idea spread to groups in Flanders, Switzerland, Finland, 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:12.280 pooland Greece, Germany, Portugal, Norway, Denmark, Czech Republic. I guess 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.800 it's a check here now, Mexico, Brazil, Puerto Rico, Canada, Bulgaria, 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:20.200 Romania and elsewhere. The growth as an idea as in 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.639 a movement has been getting ground despite the criticisms that 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.600 somehow that oh, well, you can't call it something negative 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:30.159 like the growth, because people wouldn't be you know, happy 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:33.560 with it or whatever. Um. And I'll get to that 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.080 criticism and in a bit. But it's been steadily gruin 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:42.440 since it was first you know, developed in the nineteen seventies. UM. 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.280 At this point in time, if you go on the 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:50.160 the Growth website, you will find thousands of articles and 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:55.840 studies in their library. And of course it's not to 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:59.919 say that because of concept has a lot of follow 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:06.000 us or thinkers or published works, it's automatically uh a, okay, 0:18:06.200 --> 0:18:11.400 ultimately correct. But at this point in time, I think 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.159 a lot of people are look at direction we are 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:18.960 going in and recognizing that we cannot continue along this 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:22.480 path of growth, and so they are actively looking for 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.840 a way out, looking for a way to find that balance, 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.000 recognizing that capitalism is not compatible with the Earth's balance. 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:36.760 And so the Growth ultimately rejects the illusion of growth. 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:42.080 It calls to re politicize the public debate that has 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:47.040 been colonized by the a m of economism UM, that 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:55.200 has been driven towards as a social objective economic growth, 0:18:56.119 --> 0:19:00.960 the growth as a project advocating for the democratically lead 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:05.520 shrinking of production and consumption with the aim of achieving 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:09.520 social justice and ecological sustainability. I think when some people 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:15.760 care degrowth, despite all the explanations out there, despite even 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.280 consumers explanations, they might still have this idea and they 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.240 had a de growth is this thing where bunch of 0:19:23.560 --> 0:19:28.760 armed government sponsored environmental activists roll up and take your 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.960 car and your house and force you to live in 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:35.560 a cave. Um. But de grow, and how we de 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:39.000 grow our economy is going to rely on the popular 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:44.240 um involvement of the people. You know. It's not like 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:47.200 you could just snap your fingers or just decreate and 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:53.199 make it so um. It's not meant to be like 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:56.840 how it is under New liberalism. We have all this austerity. 0:19:57.080 --> 0:20:01.240 The growth is supposed to be all of us coming 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.720 together to this to figure out how we can live 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:08.520 in alignment with our biosphere, with our bioregion, with the planet, 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:16.120 scaling down our individual and our community um supply chains, 0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:23.560 and localizing our consumption in order to reduce the reliance 0:20:23.760 --> 0:20:31.400 on this highly extractive, highly growth dependent capitalist global capitalists economy. 0:20:31.920 --> 0:20:36.720 The growth also signifies a direction, a desired direction, one 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:41.480 in which society is use fewer natural resources and organize 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.080 and live much differently than they live today. The ideas 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:47.600 of you know, sharing, which is something that we teach 0:20:47.680 --> 0:21:00.000 the preschoolers, simplicity, conviviality, care, and the commons primary concepts 0:21:00.040 --> 0:21:02.800 in terms of what a decre society should look like. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:08.200 AH In one of my previous podcast episodes that would 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.159 have discussed the commons a bit, so if anyone is 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.520 curious about what the commons are, they could check that out. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.520 UM and of course on my channel also speak about 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.080 the commons as an institution and about libraries of things. 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:25.399 And so the growth has offered a sort of a 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:32.359 framework that connects all these different ideas, concepts, proposals UM 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.160 with the criticism of growth, with the criticism of GDP, 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:40.879 with the criticism of commodification UM, the process that converts 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:45.960 social products and socio ecological services and relations into commodities 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.560 of the monetary value. On the constructive side, because the 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:53.320 growth is not just limited to criticism, do your imagines 0:21:55.800 --> 0:22:02.320 reproductive economies of care, reclamation of all and the creation 0:22:02.400 --> 0:22:08.440 of new commons. Man need and natural caring for commons 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:14.080 in communal forms of living and producing UM, liberating our 0:22:14.240 --> 0:22:19.399 time from work and making it available to caring for 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:22.879 our communities and caring for our ecology. Because if you 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:25.760 think about all of the activities that are currently so 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:32.120 needed at this point in time in terms of ecological restoration, 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:38.919 in terms of um DE growth, they're not profitable. You know, 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:46.000 planting man grooves to shore up our shows, to defend 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:50.800 our shows from erosion and from storms, it is not profitable. 0:22:51.760 --> 0:22:59.760 Replanting forests and sparking nature's processes of ecologial restoration not profitable. 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:06.159 And of course there is a whole sorts of ecosystem, economic, 0:23:06.280 --> 0:23:10.679 political ecosystem dedicated to these kinds of projects. UM with 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:15.480 all the NGOs and government organizations involved in replanting the 0:23:15.600 --> 0:23:19.240 Sahel region in Africa, for example, crazily create green wall. 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:23.520 But those projects tend to be right with issues and 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:27.320 a lack of intendence because they do not involve local 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:34.439 communities in the decision making surrounding UM that process of restoration. 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:37.800 And on top of that, of course, these projects are 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:42.400 not embedded in broad up project for the growth. So 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:47.040 a government be a government might be planting trees and 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.919 planting forests in one part of the country and extracting 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:57.760 and drilling in another part of the country. And so 0:23:58.720 --> 0:24:00.879 there needs to be an integration of all these different 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:06.800 projects with a brother push and direction towards d crew. 0:24:16.920 --> 0:24:18.959 I want to go back around to this idea that 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:25.640 m DE growth is a critique of GDP as a concept. Um, 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:29.280 the growth is not necessarily the same as negative GDP growth. 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.720 But when you consider how GDP is measured, as it's counted, 0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:40.880 it's about financial transactions and not necessarily the non financial ones. 0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:45.840 And so if we were to crean our economy, if 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:50.240 we were to de crew our society, um, we're not 0:24:50.359 --> 0:24:55.040 going to be seeing the realy trus domestic activity increases 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:58.240 of two or three percent. Yeah, there's there's an old 0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:01.960 like two eleven slogan that, uh, if when the bank 0:25:02.040 --> 0:25:09.200 takes your house, that increases GDP. Right, that is true. 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:13.720 That is true. A lot of uh, positive and constructive 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:17.560 and beneficial actions that people do on a regular basis 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:25.240 do not contribute to GDP, whereas entire destructive industries contributes significantly. 0:25:25.920 --> 0:25:30.639 It's every month. We started this by talking by comparing 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:33.000 kind of the quest for endless growth to a cancer, 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.320 but I almost think it's a better comparison. Is Like, 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:38.800 you know, there was that article early this year about 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:42.399 how specific kinds of people, particularly like rich weirdos in 0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:45.280 the tech industry, are paying thousands of dollars to have 0:25:45.320 --> 0:25:48.520 their legs broken and like lengthened so that they can 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:52.840 be like, that's that's that's that's a that's a shipload 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.199 of how act like, yeah, I mean it's weaker, they 0:25:55.240 --> 0:25:57.440 can never we can never run again. But you are 0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:03.480 technically taller, so well on in this growth, Yeah go up? 0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:08.479 Much of a coward to wear platforms? Yeah yeah, so 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:10.320 you don't you don't have the hotspot to be a 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:14.520 short king. Unbelievable. Sometimes I do think that, like when 0:26:14.520 --> 0:26:18.399 anthropologists on civilization the wonder why we were so fascinated 0:26:18.440 --> 0:26:21.919 about line go up, But then they realized with the 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:24.320 whole point of the civilization was line go up? Like 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:30.360 that that was our deity truly, truly, it's it's it's 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:36.520 I don't know, my eyes my eyes bleed sometimes thinking 0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:40.639 about how this whole system is structured and how it 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:44.760 just continues to chug along. But um, that's why I 0:26:44.920 --> 0:26:47.760 spend so much time writing and reading and talking about 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:52.399 these issues, right, trying to find a whee out, And 0:26:52.440 --> 0:26:56.639 so that is also what the growth advocates are looking 0:26:56.680 --> 0:27:00.200 to do, the looking for we out, you know, way 0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:03.919 for a better life first of all, which brings me 0:27:03.960 --> 0:27:09.920 to the whole criticism of the growth that is essentially optics. Right. 0:27:10.520 --> 0:27:13.320 They say it's not appropriate to use a negative word 0:27:13.720 --> 0:27:21.639 to signify desired positive changes, but the growth advocates deliberately choose. 0:27:21.800 --> 0:27:25.040 I mean, in my view, I said that I'm fine 0:27:25.040 --> 0:27:28.280 with either quality growth or qualitate post growth or whatever. 0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:32.119 But the growth advocates have chosen the term de growth 0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:37.399 for a reason. The use of negation for a positive 0:27:37.440 --> 0:27:44.520 project is aimed towards creating that sort of um questioning, 0:27:44.800 --> 0:27:49.480 you know, towards getting people to reconsider this idea of 0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:54.800 growth as a ultimate could to de colonize imagination that 0:27:54.880 --> 0:27:59.959 has been dominated by this whole capitalist conception of the future. 0:28:00.440 --> 0:28:04.800 Consistent of you know, line go up. Is this automatic 0:28:04.840 --> 0:28:08.359 assumption and association of growth with better that the word 0:28:08.480 --> 0:28:12.240 the growth wants to dismantle, wants to be construct and 0:28:12.240 --> 0:28:18.159 so de growth. It is a deliberately subversive slogan. And 0:28:18.240 --> 0:28:24.320 of course the growth is not aimed at, you know, 0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:30.120 deconstructing the most necessary sectors, the devolved in the most 0:28:30.119 --> 0:28:34.400 necessary sectors. We're not talking about de grow and education, 0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:38.200 de grow in, medical care, de grow in you know, well, 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:41.760 renewable energy is kind of a tricky subject. But DeCrow 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:48.120 and renewable energy, UM, it's more so about primarily and 0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:51.480 first of all, targets in the most duty and destructive industries, 0:28:52.080 --> 0:28:56.000 you know, the financial sector. UM. We would prefer to 0:28:56.080 --> 0:29:02.240 see institutions like health and energy Asian flourish rather than 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:06.200 crew or develop. We want to change that is qualitative, 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:11.880 not necessarily quantitative. You want to see a flourishing of 0:29:12.000 --> 0:29:19.720 the arts, of flourishing of philosophies, of flourishing of um 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:26.280 vernacular architecture is a flourishing of the creativity of people. 0:29:26.640 --> 0:29:30.280 And that's qualitative. It's not about oh, well, line go up, 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:32.960 so things more good, you know. It's not about we 0:29:33.040 --> 0:29:37.880 have ten industrial output last year, now we have twelve. 0:29:38.160 --> 0:29:41.680 That's so good. You know. We want something. We want 0:29:41.720 --> 0:29:44.520 quality to change that. And if most people released sit 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:46.840 down and think about what they want in their life, 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:50.320 I don't think a lot of people are gonna are 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:54.960 gonna think of, Oh well, I want next year's iPhone 0:29:55.600 --> 0:30:00.240 to have a twelve increase in the camera quality. Yeah, 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:06.280