Speaker 1: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night, Hello, and welcome.
Speaker 1: So it could happen here. It is three pm in
Speaker 1: the winter, so it's all of those at once over here.
Speaker 1: That is true. That is true. It just seven cords here.
Speaker 1: It's regular evening time. Yeah, no winter included, you know,
Speaker 1: just rain and hot that's the two moods of the weather. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Which winter is it right now? Is did rain winter
Speaker 1: or hot winter? Neither? There's no winter winters never. Well,
Speaker 1: I hope that winter never comes to the island. If
Speaker 1: it does, I think will be in some deep ship,
Speaker 1: you know. If you guys get snow. It's time Frestle
Speaker 1: to reevaluate our practices when they happen. Absolutely, that means
Speaker 1: the parrots have migrated to Alaska. Ok. Ahead, they do
Speaker 1: a lot of movements around the evening time, so I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pack up and
Speaker 1: leave us all behind. Well, this is it could happen here,
Speaker 1: as as you might be aware. A podcast about things
Speaker 1: falling apart, and today's episode is brought to us by
Speaker 1: Andrew Hello of the Youtue Journal Andrewism. Just avoid confusion
Speaker 1: with other Andrews, you know, abuse Yeah, that's right, son
Speaker 1: of the Queen. Yeah. You know you can talk about
Speaker 1: Prince Andrew, you can talk about and your teeth. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like distinguished myself, you know. Yeah, you're the best, Andrew.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that anytime, buddy. So I'd like to spend
Speaker 1: some time today tonight what is time really and to
Speaker 1: talk about the concept of d group, you know, where
Speaker 1: it comes from, what it means, what it needs, and
Speaker 1: a lot other fun stuff. Are you guys familiar with
Speaker 1: the growth as as a concept? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and it's yeah, I I please, please, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's one of those things that gets a lot of
Speaker 1: like uh flak on one hand for people saying that
Speaker 1: it's basically eco fascism, and then you have folks being like, no,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a perfectly reasonable response to the kind
Speaker 1: of endless growth attitude that got us into the environmental
Speaker 1: catastrophe we're currently experiencing. That's yeah. I think that UM
Speaker 1: haven't released a video on de growth last week, and
Speaker 1: having read through some of the comments have received, I've
Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that there's no getting through to
Speaker 1: some people. Yeah. People, people love to listen to like
Speaker 1: a third of what you say and then get really
Speaker 1: angry at what they think you said. Every time we
Speaker 1: talk about like the value of of things like you know,
Speaker 1: the four Thieves Vinegar Collective, you know, hacking different medicines
Speaker 1: or training people being medics. Somebody hops on the subret
Speaker 1: and said, I think it's kind of able. Is that
Speaker 1: they think that, you know, people can replace doctors with
Speaker 1: with street medics. No one, no one's ever made that case.
Speaker 1: That that's not a thing that anyone has ever said.
Speaker 1: I'm going to make it my entire life mission to
Speaker 1: only specifically make this case some gauze and water in
Speaker 1: a bag. Yeah, yeah, doctors, but they must all die
Speaker 1: when the revolution comes. They will only be replaced the
Speaker 1: street that X. It's gonna be great. I'm texting all
Speaker 1: of this to our friends Covet right now. Dr Hda. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's just ridiculous. So people would literally project
Speaker 1: what they think you said onto what you actually said.
Speaker 1: It's very very obvious when it's taken place. I don't
Speaker 1: know how they don't feel embarrassed. You know, a lot
Speaker 1: of times I barely comment on things, I barely respond
Speaker 1: to things, and when I do I check and recheck
Speaker 1: and re check what the person has said. Then I
Speaker 1: check and recheck and recheck what I see before I
Speaker 1: get the statement, because I don't know how do not
Speaker 1: feel embarrassed? Yeah, like everybody who has watched the video conceded.
Speaker 1: You haven't watched it. It's just had like a term
Speaker 1: search and then appeared and yeah and like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: come to engage you pretty much pretty much. But I mean,
Speaker 1: if I were to be asleep for the algorithm, I
Speaker 1: would say all that engagement helps, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: sure it does. It helps. It helps one thing for sure, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and help get up to a better place. Unfortunately, And
Speaker 1: speaking of things that do not help us get to
Speaker 1: a better place, I think it's the growth primarily is
Speaker 1: about confronting this destructive ideology of growth. Is m know,
Speaker 1: something we see all around us, something we interact with
Speaker 1: a failure regular basis. You see the images of the
Speaker 1: Amazon rainfor us being cut down to be um, turning
Speaker 1: into soy farms until eventually it's made into a cattle
Speaker 1: grease in fields. You talk about the constant expansion of
Speaker 1: oil infrastructure. You talk about the constant expansion of mining operations.
Speaker 1: You talk about the continued rise of fast fashion, that
Speaker 1: people are extremely defensive whenever you try to criticize it.
Speaker 1: All of these systems, all of these industries, all of
Speaker 1: these practices uh part of part and parcel, or rather
Speaker 1: products of this ideology of growthism that capitalism is driven by.
Speaker 1: And I know it may be strange for some people
Speaker 1: to sort of the program from this idea of growth
Speaker 1: is like a aulterated could uncontroversially positive because you know,
Speaker 1: natures like all about growth, right. You know, when you
Speaker 1: think of growth, you think of a plant speaking out
Speaker 1: to the soil. You think of a baby kitten growing
Speaker 1: up to be a cat. You talk about like babies
Speaker 1: becoming toddlers, becoming young children, becoming older children becoming you know,
Speaker 1: tweens and teens and then finally adults and then from
Speaker 1: there Joe Biden, Um, but you know, there's this whole
Speaker 1: idea of growth, and that growth is like a natural
Speaker 1: part of life. Not as true, but growth in life
Speaker 1: does not go on and on and on and on.
Speaker 1: You know, organisms grew up to a certain point and
Speaker 1: then they maintain a healthy equilibrium, or at least they
Speaker 1: try to. Um. Of course, health is not necessarily a
Speaker 1: natural state of affairs, because viruses are just as natural
Speaker 1: as the cells they attack. And then you can also
Speaker 1: get all uh femeral and talk about postal growth and
Speaker 1: our life is a constant journey of personal growth and whatever.
Speaker 1: But speaking materially, we can physically, growth has a limit.
Speaker 1: People grow up to certain height, certain size, and so on,
Speaker 1: and when growth doesn't stop, that's when we start running
Speaker 1: into problems. As I understand, the reason that cancer is
Speaker 1: so difficult to cure is because your own body turning
Speaker 1: against you. It's your it's some of the many trillions
Speaker 1: of your own cells deciding okay, time to just grow
Speaker 1: and grow and grow without limit. And what happens in
Speaker 1: most of those cases, and many of those cases rather unfortunately,
Speaker 1: people die as a result. Say our bodies and our
Speaker 1: own bodies. We understand that growth is not always positive,
Speaker 1: and yet that's sick. Logic of growth for its own
Speaker 1: sake is exactly what the global economy relies on. So
Speaker 1: that's just think that's too much growth, too much money,
Speaker 1: too much stuff. And you have all these wealthy nations
Speaker 1: to continue to expand and grow and attempt to hoard.
Speaker 1: I heard one person use the analogy a Camemberhood was
Speaker 1: UM talking about how capitalism is now attempting to the
Speaker 1: new frontiers. For capitalism is to expand and colonize our
Speaker 1: own minds, UM. And so every economy, every sector, every
Speaker 1: industry is expected to keep growing, keep growing, keep growing,
Speaker 1: no matter what. One of the responses that I got
Speaker 1: on my video on the growth is that, oh, well,
Speaker 1: you're seeing that growth is this improwth? Isma is this
Speaker 1: capitalist thing? But you know, China and USS are and
Speaker 1: they grew and they industrialized, and they are just as
Speaker 1: susceptible to ecological destruction and as any other capitalist country.
Speaker 1: And that is true, but that's also out of why
Speaker 1: I would consider those countries to be UM state capitalist
Speaker 1: projects UM and not anything close to what our envisioned.
Speaker 1: But of course, the moment you introduce any idea that
Speaker 1: sounds even vaguely socially oriented, even vaguely ecologically oriented, UM,
Speaker 1: people automatically assume you're trying to go for like new
Speaker 1: United Soviet socialist Republic. But I think we need to
Speaker 1: explore different paths to improve in quality of life, to
Speaker 1: code and code developing. And that's a tricky subject I'll
Speaker 1: get into a bit later, But we need to think
Speaker 1: of way as that we can help people and help
Speaker 1: people live better lives without relying on desperating the bias fare.
Speaker 1: It's a tricky conversation to be had um because when
Speaker 1: people think of growth, they think if it as a positive,
Speaker 1: and when you criticize that positive, they think the inverse.
Speaker 1: They think, you're trying to make everybody degrade and go
Speaker 1: down to like a worst quality of life, to rush
Speaker 1: back to to like a lower life expectancy, what transform
Speaker 1: a mode of production back to like hunting and gathering.
Speaker 1: But the truth is that deep growth as a movement
Speaker 1: as system of thought is more so about trying to
Speaker 1: find that balance between a good quality of life for all,
Speaker 1: not just this unequal quality of life that we see
Speaker 1: around the world and the capitalism while also balancing the
Speaker 1: fact that we live in material world. We live on
Speaker 1: a planet that has limited resources. When to balance those resources,
Speaker 1: we need to consider and be good stewards of, you know,
Speaker 1: uh planet that we share with other living creatures. Capitalism
Speaker 1: really is driven by this ideology of growthism because it
Speaker 1: is structurally incentivized structurally as a structural imperative in the
Speaker 1: capitalist system. It's not exclusively driven by greed, as some
Speaker 1: people assume. I think that's that that this idea that
Speaker 1: it's all up to, like personalities, kind of hampers people's
Speaker 1: ability to analyze systems because it doesn't matter whether, um
Speaker 1: we suddenly put each and every CEO in a position
Speaker 1: where they are all completely one hundreds of altruistics. It's
Speaker 1: not that they're all being driven by greed. It's because
Speaker 1: and the capitalism. You know, capitalists own capital, and capital
Speaker 1: that is stagnant is capital that is losing its value,
Speaker 1: and so they look for things to invest in so
Speaker 1: they can grow their capital. Capital being anything from real estate, factories, machinery,
Speaker 1: intellectual property, financial assets. What is the money that they
Speaker 1: used to make more money. If it's stagnant, it's losing value,
Speaker 1: and they're trying to increase its value. Um As they
Speaker 1: see gold companies that have growing profits year after year,
Speaker 1: so their capital will grow year after year, and if
Speaker 1: that growth slews down, they pull out and look elsewhere
Speaker 1: to invest. Companies that fail to grow will lose their
Speaker 1: investors and collapse, And so companies do everything in their
Speaker 1: power to maintain growth so they can maintain the investors,
Speaker 1: regardless of how much havoc they reach upon the world.
Speaker 1: So if any barriers are preventing their growth, they had
Speaker 1: to build those those barriers. You know, environment of protections
Speaker 1: and barriers labelow as a barriers. Protections policies are barriers.
Speaker 1: The commons were a barrier, Indigenous populations were a barrier,
Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. All of these acts
Speaker 1: of violence open up these new frontiers for growth, for appropriation,
Speaker 1: for accumulation, and so incomes the growth. Or the French
Speaker 1: term for it is the croissant um. And I know
Speaker 1: that I likely pronounced that incorrectly. It's the French. We
Speaker 1: can disrespect them precisely. I think um, things that sit
Speaker 1: down reflect on their nucleuing empire um. But anyway, this
Speaker 1: idea of the growth really first was developed. I have
Speaker 1: to say that I appreciate what the intellectuals have come
Speaker 1: up with. They're good at sit down and thinking about stuff.
Speaker 1: I'll give them that. I'll give them that. So there's
Speaker 1: one French intellectual guy named Andrea Course in nine seventy
Speaker 1: two coined the Tomb Deacons Saint French for the growth
Speaker 1: go has basically posed a question that remains at the
Speaker 1: center of the growth, is the Earth's balance for which
Speaker 1: no growth or even the growth of material production is
Speaker 1: a necessary condition compatible with the survival of the capitalist system.
Speaker 1: I would avenge to say no, it is not in
Speaker 1: any way compactable with this travel of the capitalist system,
Speaker 1: because we have seen it in this short period of
Speaker 1: time that the capitalism has existed, it has rapidly triggered
Speaker 1: the capital scene, or as some people regrettably called the anthropocene,
Speaker 1: it has rapidly triggered the sixth great mass ext accourn
Speaker 1: event um. And so I do not believe that the
Speaker 1: Earth's balance it's compatible with its survival. And so the
Speaker 1: Croissant movement of activists mainly flourished in Leon in the
Speaker 1: early two thousand's, in the week of protests for car
Speaker 1: free cities, communal meals in the streets, food cooperatives, and
Speaker 1: campaigns against advertising. It went from France to Italy, where
Speaker 1: agree and anty globalization activists h mobilized against this whole
Speaker 1: concept of capitalisms constant encroachments and expansion and growth expanded
Speaker 1: into Catalonia in Spain in two thousens six. It eventually
Speaker 1: built up to the size where it could sustain a movement.
Speaker 1: A magazine rather Croissant, which currently sells a few thousand
Speaker 1: copies a month. Around the same time, in two thousand four,
Speaker 1: a research and activist named France Swash Schneider took a
Speaker 1: year long walking tour on a donkey to disseminated growth
Speaker 1: throughout France and that received some media coverage. Eventually, Schneider
Speaker 1: founded an academic collective known as Research and the Growth
Speaker 1: along with Dennis Bayonne and Februarri Fleepoo, and they eventually
Speaker 1: began International conferences went in Paris into those and eight,
Speaker 1: and the second in Barcelona, so the English term d
Speaker 1: growth was officially used for the first time at the
Speaker 1: Paris conference, which remarked the booth of the international research
Speaker 1: community around the growth. Following the success of the conferences
Speaker 1: in Paris and Barcelona, other conferences were held in Montreal
Speaker 1: in eleven, Venice in twelve, Leipzig fourteen uh and the
Speaker 1: Growth as an idea spread to groups in Flanders, Switzerland, Finland,
Speaker 1: pooland Greece, Germany, Portugal, Norway, Denmark, Czech Republic. I guess
Speaker 1: it's a check here now, Mexico, Brazil, Puerto Rico, Canada, Bulgaria,
Speaker 1: Romania and elsewhere. The growth as an idea as in
Speaker 1: a movement has been getting ground despite the criticisms that
Speaker 1: somehow that oh, well, you can't call it something negative
Speaker 1: like the growth, because people wouldn't be you know, happy
Speaker 1: with it or whatever. Um. And I'll get to that
Speaker 1: criticism and in a bit. But it's been steadily gruin
Speaker 1: since it was first you know, developed in the nineteen seventies. UM.
Speaker 1: At this point in time, if you go on the
Speaker 1: the Growth website, you will find thousands of articles and
Speaker 1: studies in their library. And of course it's not to
Speaker 1: say that because of concept has a lot of follow
Speaker 1: us or thinkers or published works, it's automatically uh a, okay,
Speaker 1: ultimately correct. But at this point in time, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people are look at direction we are
Speaker 1: going in and recognizing that we cannot continue along this
Speaker 1: path of growth, and so they are actively looking for
Speaker 1: a way out, looking for a way to find that balance,
Speaker 1: recognizing that capitalism is not compatible with the Earth's balance.
Speaker 1: And so the Growth ultimately rejects the illusion of growth.
Speaker 1: It calls to re politicize the public debate that has
Speaker 1: been colonized by the a m of economism UM, that
Speaker 1: has been driven towards as a social objective economic growth,
Speaker 1: the growth as a project advocating for the democratically lead
Speaker 1: shrinking of production and consumption with the aim of achieving
Speaker 1: social justice and ecological sustainability. I think when some people
Speaker 1: care degrowth, despite all the explanations out there, despite even
Speaker 1: consumers explanations, they might still have this idea and they
Speaker 1: had a de growth is this thing where bunch of
Speaker 1: armed government sponsored environmental activists roll up and take your
Speaker 1: car and your house and force you to live in
Speaker 1: a cave. Um. But de grow, and how we de
Speaker 1: grow our economy is going to rely on the popular
Speaker 1: um involvement of the people. You know. It's not like
Speaker 1: you could just snap your fingers or just decreate and
Speaker 1: make it so um. It's not meant to be like
Speaker 1: how it is under New liberalism. We have all this austerity.
Speaker 1: The growth is supposed to be all of us coming
Speaker 1: together to this to figure out how we can live
Speaker 1: in alignment with our biosphere, with our bioregion, with the planet,
Speaker 1: scaling down our individual and our community um supply chains,
Speaker 1: and localizing our consumption in order to reduce the reliance
Speaker 1: on this highly extractive, highly growth dependent capitalist global capitalists economy.
Speaker 1: The growth also signifies a direction, a desired direction, one
Speaker 1: in which society is use fewer natural resources and organize
Speaker 1: and live much differently than they live today. The ideas
Speaker 1: of you know, sharing, which is something that we teach
Speaker 1: the preschoolers, simplicity, conviviality, care, and the commons primary concepts
Speaker 1: in terms of what a decre society should look like.
Speaker 1: AH In one of my previous podcast episodes that would
Speaker 1: have discussed the commons a bit, so if anyone is
Speaker 1: curious about what the commons are, they could check that out.
Speaker 1: UM and of course on my channel also speak about
Speaker 1: the commons as an institution and about libraries of things.
Speaker 1: And so the growth has offered a sort of a
Speaker 1: framework that connects all these different ideas, concepts, proposals UM
Speaker 1: with the criticism of growth, with the criticism of GDP,
Speaker 1: with the criticism of commodification UM, the process that converts
Speaker 1: social products and socio ecological services and relations into commodities
Speaker 1: of the monetary value. On the constructive side, because the
Speaker 1: growth is not just limited to criticism, do your imagines
Speaker 1: reproductive economies of care, reclamation of all and the creation
Speaker 1: of new commons. Man need and natural caring for commons
Speaker 1: in communal forms of living and producing UM, liberating our
Speaker 1: time from work and making it available to caring for
Speaker 1: our communities and caring for our ecology. Because if you
Speaker 1: think about all of the activities that are currently so
Speaker 1: needed at this point in time in terms of ecological restoration,
Speaker 1: in terms of um DE growth, they're not profitable. You know,
Speaker 1: planting man grooves to shore up our shows, to defend
Speaker 1: our shows from erosion and from storms, it is not profitable.
Speaker 1: Replanting forests and sparking nature's processes of ecologial restoration not profitable.
Speaker 1: And of course there is a whole sorts of ecosystem, economic,
Speaker 1: political ecosystem dedicated to these kinds of projects. UM with
Speaker 1: all the NGOs and government organizations involved in replanting the
Speaker 1: Sahel region in Africa, for example, crazily create green wall.
Speaker 1: But those projects tend to be right with issues and
Speaker 1: a lack of intendence because they do not involve local
Speaker 1: communities in the decision making surrounding UM that process of restoration.
Speaker 1: And on top of that, of course, these projects are
Speaker 1: not embedded in broad up project for the growth. So
Speaker 1: a government be a government might be planting trees and
Speaker 1: planting forests in one part of the country and extracting
Speaker 1: and drilling in another part of the country. And so
Speaker 1: there needs to be an integration of all these different
Speaker 1: projects with a brother push and direction towards d crew.
Speaker 1: I want to go back around to this idea that
Speaker 1: m DE growth is a critique of GDP as a concept. Um,
Speaker 1: the growth is not necessarily the same as negative GDP growth.
Speaker 1: But when you consider how GDP is measured, as it's counted,
Speaker 1: it's about financial transactions and not necessarily the non financial ones.
Speaker 1: And so if we were to crean our economy, if
Speaker 1: we were to de crew our society, um, we're not
Speaker 1: going to be seeing the realy trus domestic activity increases
Speaker 1: of two or three percent. Yeah, there's there's an old
Speaker 1: like two eleven slogan that, uh, if when the bank
Speaker 1: takes your house, that increases GDP. Right, that is true.
Speaker 1: That is true. A lot of uh, positive and constructive
Speaker 1: and beneficial actions that people do on a regular basis
Speaker 1: do not contribute to GDP, whereas entire destructive industries contributes significantly.
Speaker 1: It's every month. We started this by talking by comparing
Speaker 1: kind of the quest for endless growth to a cancer,
Speaker 1: but I almost think it's a better comparison. Is Like,
Speaker 1: you know, there was that article early this year about
Speaker 1: how specific kinds of people, particularly like rich weirdos in
Speaker 1: the tech industry, are paying thousands of dollars to have
Speaker 1: their legs broken and like lengthened so that they can
Speaker 1: be like, that's that's that's that's a that's a shipload
Speaker 1: of how act like, yeah, I mean it's weaker, they
Speaker 1: can never we can never run again. But you are
Speaker 1: technically taller, so well on in this growth, Yeah go up?
Speaker 1: Much of a coward to wear platforms? Yeah yeah, so
Speaker 1: you don't you don't have the hotspot to be a
Speaker 1: short king. Unbelievable. Sometimes I do think that, like when
Speaker 1: anthropologists on civilization the wonder why we were so fascinated
Speaker 1: about line go up, But then they realized with the
Speaker 1: whole point of the civilization was line go up? Like
Speaker 1: that that was our deity truly, truly, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: I don't know, my eyes my eyes bleed sometimes thinking
Speaker 1: about how this whole system is structured and how it
Speaker 1: just continues to chug along. But um, that's why I
Speaker 1: spend so much time writing and reading and talking about
Speaker 1: these issues, right, trying to find a whee out, And
Speaker 1: so that is also what the growth advocates are looking
Speaker 1: to do, the looking for we out, you know, way
Speaker 1: for a better life first of all, which brings me
Speaker 1: to the whole criticism of the growth that is essentially optics. Right.
Speaker 1: They say it's not appropriate to use a negative word
Speaker 1: to signify desired positive changes, but the growth advocates deliberately choose.
Speaker 1: I mean, in my view, I said that I'm fine
Speaker 1: with either quality growth or qualitate post growth or whatever.
Speaker 1: But the growth advocates have chosen the term de growth
Speaker 1: for a reason. The use of negation for a positive
Speaker 1: project is aimed towards creating that sort of um questioning,
Speaker 1: you know, towards getting people to reconsider this idea of
Speaker 1: growth as a ultimate could to de colonize imagination that
Speaker 1: has been dominated by this whole capitalist conception of the future.
Speaker 1: Consistent of you know, line go up. Is this automatic
Speaker 1: assumption and association of growth with better that the word
Speaker 1: the growth wants to dismantle, wants to be construct and
Speaker 1: so de growth. It is a deliberately subversive slogan. And
Speaker 1: of course the growth is not aimed at, you know,
Speaker 1: deconstructing the most necessary sectors, the devolved in the most
Speaker 1: necessary sectors. We're not talking about de grow and education,
Speaker 1: de grow in, medical care, de grow in you know, well,
Speaker 1: renewable energy is kind of a tricky subject. But DeCrow
Speaker 1: and renewable energy, UM, it's more so about primarily and
Speaker 1: first of all, targets in the most duty and destructive industries,
Speaker 1: you know, the financial sector. UM. We would prefer to
Speaker 1: see institutions like health and energy Asian flourish rather than
Speaker 1: crew or develop. We want to change that is qualitative,
Speaker 1: not necessarily quantitative. You want to see a flourishing of
Speaker 1: the arts, of flourishing of philosophies, of flourishing of um
Speaker 1: vernacular architecture is a flourishing of the creativity of people.
Speaker 1: And that's qualitative. It's not about oh, well, line go up,
Speaker 1: so things more good, you know. It's not about we
Speaker 1: have ten industrial output last year, now we have twelve.
Speaker 1: That's so good. You know. We want something. We want
Speaker 1: quality to change that. And if most people released sit
Speaker 1: down and think about what they want in their life,
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people are gonna are
Speaker 1: gonna think of, Oh well, I want next year's iPhone
Speaker 1: to have a twelve increase in the camera quality. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, it's more so that you want better you know,
Speaker 1: rest um more um connected communities, healthier commute or healthier
Speaker 1: UM I guess city layout. Um, it's more conducive to interaction.
Speaker 1: It's more conducive to um small scale movement. It's not about,
Speaker 1: like I said, you know, it's not about trying to
Speaker 1: get Lyne to go up cryptocurrency. As I think about it,
Speaker 1: it's like perhaps the best example or like n f
Speaker 1: t s, right, like they created a bunch of value
Speaker 1: that literally created nothing. I had nothing other than exchange
Speaker 1: value exactly exactly. It's just nonsense. Yeah, pretend money talk
Speaker 1: for a moment about like development as a concept, right,
Speaker 1: because another common criticism of the growth is that, oh well,
Speaker 1: what about the global South, what about the Third world?
Speaker 1: What about all the poor countries and poor people of
Speaker 1: the world. You just want to leave them behind. And
Speaker 1: for one, I find it strange because the person in question,
Speaker 1: at least the video response that I got, simplicitly assumes
Speaker 1: that I am from like a global North nichean and
Speaker 1: I'm just fine sitting down with my you know, um
Speaker 1: same day Amazon delivery and Starbucks and um, sprawling suburbs
Speaker 1: and whatever it is that you know they imagine my
Speaker 1: lifestyle is like. But I think first and foremost parts
Speaker 1: of the whole move a t growth is to consider um,
Speaker 1: like I said, reasonably improving people's quality of life worldwide,
Speaker 1: which capitalism is not interested in. Coupitism will maintain a
Speaker 1: perpetual under class because they're easier to exploit. And so
Speaker 1: this is whole idea of development, right that has this baggage. Um,
Speaker 1: it's very colonial bagguage. But it's development is really like growth.
Speaker 1: It's meant to have like a limit. It's an unfolding
Speaker 1: towards a predetermined end. You know. An embryo eventually develops
Speaker 1: into a fetus, so she eventually develops into a baby,
Speaker 1: She eventually develops into a child, She eventually develops into
Speaker 1: an adult who then ages and dies. But development for
Speaker 1: the sake of development, with no end, with no ams,
Speaker 1: with no goals, with no sense of um self critique
Speaker 1: or questioning, it's a disaster waiting to happen. I can
Speaker 1: look at my own country and from trenon to vehicle.
Speaker 1: For those who don't know and think of things that
Speaker 1: need to get better, right, things that would really improve
Speaker 1: people's quality of life. Um. To think about the fact
Speaker 1: that we really need to get rid of our reliance
Speaker 1: and cars and bring back our training system, um that
Speaker 1: was dismantled so long ago. I could think about the
Speaker 1: fact that we need to improve our food or autonomy
Speaker 1: because we are extremely reliant on food imports. UM. Things
Speaker 1: like that I can think about that would improve people's
Speaker 1: ability to live well and sustainably on this island. But
Speaker 1: those things, those aims, those are those are cools, right,
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, oh, development, development, development, I'm thinking, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's point B. How do I get there from point A?
Speaker 1: How are we going to meet people's basic needs? And
Speaker 1: this is who and the whole Deep With project is
Speaker 1: really about that whole inversion between the Goloble North and
Speaker 1: the Global Salt. Right, the Global North needs to reduce
Speaker 1: their demand for a lot of the resources and goods
Speaker 1: so that they're more accessible to the Globle Salt. But
Speaker 1: in making those things more accessible place, isn't the Global
Speaker 1: Salt are not meant to follow the same path that
Speaker 1: the Goloble North took. That put us in our mess
Speaker 1: the whole ideas that we need to find a different path,
Speaker 1: We need to find a different trajectory, We need to
Speaker 1: think for ourselves instead of trying to keep up with
Speaker 1: the junes Is in order to the Tuman what a
Speaker 1: good life would mean for us in our ecological niche,
Speaker 1: in our geographical situation. Yeah, what it was is like
Speaker 1: we did, we did we we did. We did this
Speaker 1: in China, right, Like we we did the entire development thing,
Speaker 1: and the product is now like people literally walking eighteen
Speaker 1: miles on foot after having broken out of a fox
Speaker 1: con factory that they've been locked in and forced to
Speaker 1: make iPhones because someone had like three people have gotten COVID,
Speaker 1: so they just like locked everyone in the factory. So
Speaker 1: like you know it. Yeah, And I think it's also
Speaker 1: sort of like briefly worth mentioning that like development as
Speaker 1: a concept and the sort of developmental economics field was
Speaker 1: like this was like specifically developed in sort of the
Speaker 1: bowels of the American State Department as as a response
Speaker 1: to like basically as like as a way as a
Speaker 1: kind of like simplified capitalist version of Marxist theory they
Speaker 1: could throw out to sort of like explain what was
Speaker 1: happening in like as as a way as a sort
Speaker 1: of an alternative demarxism for like all these sort of
Speaker 1: like newly post colonial nations. And you know, it's gone
Speaker 1: about as well as you would expect. I think of
Speaker 1: the valles of the state department to be alternative departments. Like, well,
Speaker 1: this has been fun. Um, I love I don't know
Speaker 1: thinking about capital. I mean this is it's this is
Speaker 1: important because like we always need to be thinking about
Speaker 1: what comes next. This is constantly like a problem that
Speaker 1: the left has and certainly a problem the liberals have,
Speaker 1: which is that, um, the vision of the future is
Speaker 1: very rarely anything more than fighting against kind of the
Speaker 1: demons of the moment, as opposed to like what does
Speaker 1: it actually look like to get ourselves to a better place,
Speaker 1: to a place that's more sustainable, both in an environmental
Speaker 1: level and in like in a manner of human ecology too,
Speaker 1: And um, yeah, I think this is like, this is
Speaker 1: kind of the hard work that people need to be
Speaker 1: thinking about. Wherever you wind up landing on on d
Speaker 1: growth as either a concept or as a term, like
Speaker 1: these are the paths we have to start beating out
Speaker 1: of the bush, you know exactly. So they are many
Speaker 1: potential that have already been thoughts open. There many that
Speaker 1: have yet to be im g in Ecuador, the project
Speaker 1: of Sumac, say and really the rest of Latin America,
Speaker 1: the idea of green Vivere in much of South Africa,
Speaker 1: the concept of UBUNTU in India, the Gandhian economy of permanence.
Speaker 1: All of these projects are more explore alternatives to quote
Speaker 1: and quote development, alternats of trajectories to a good life
Speaker 1: UM that is rooted in environmental justice, that is based
Speaker 1: in a retreat from the narrow confines of the global
Speaker 1: North's imagination UM and what that imagination has promoted worldwide
Speaker 1: and forced upon the rest of the world. The growth
Speaker 1: requires us to think for ourselves, to think creatively about
Speaker 1: how we plan on creating a good life in the
Speaker 1: context of capitalisms degradation, the Earth's degradation due to climate change,
Speaker 1: and what that will mean for our future. Is we
Speaker 1: really need to sit and think about what our future
Speaker 1: as a species, what of our future as regions, our
Speaker 1: future as communities of future as individuals is going to
Speaker 1: look like. What trajectory, what path we want to take,
Speaker 1: and how we begin that journey. And so in the
Speaker 1: second part of this two part series, I intend to
Speaker 1: discuss what concepts are a sent show for the growth,
Speaker 1: the steps we can take to move towards the growth,
Speaker 1: and how we can integrate the growth in a kiss politics.
Speaker 1: All right, and that's going to be the end of
Speaker 1: part one. Come back tomorrow for part two and uh,
Speaker 1: probably more discussion of that weird surgery. Rich people get
Speaker 1: to have their legs broken repeatedly until they're taller. It
Speaker 1: Could Happen Here is a production of cool zone Media.
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