1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good night, Hello, and welcome. 2 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: So it could happen here. It is three pm in 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: the winter, so it's all of those at once over here. 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: That is true. That is true. It just seven cords here. 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: It's regular evening time. Yeah, no winter included, you know, 6 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: just rain and hot that's the two moods of the weather. Yeah. 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: Which winter is it right now? Is did rain winter 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: or hot winter? Neither? There's no winter winters never. Well, 9 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: I hope that winter never comes to the island. If 10 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: it does, I think will be in some deep ship, 11 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: you know. If you guys get snow. It's time Frestle 12 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: to reevaluate our practices when they happen. Absolutely, that means 13 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:08,480 Speaker 1: the parrots have migrated to Alaska. Ok. Ahead, they do 14 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 1: a lot of movements around the evening time, so I 15 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if they decided to pack up and 16 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: leave us all behind. Well, this is it could happen here, 17 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: as as you might be aware. A podcast about things 18 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: falling apart, and today's episode is brought to us by 19 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: Andrew Hello of the Youtue Journal Andrewism. Just avoid confusion 20 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: with other Andrews, you know, abuse Yeah, that's right, son 21 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,039 Speaker 1: of the Queen. Yeah. You know you can talk about 22 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: Prince Andrew, you can talk about and your teeth. You know, 23 00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: it's like distinguished myself, you know. Yeah, you're the best, Andrew. 24 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate that anytime, buddy. So I'd like to spend 25 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: some time today tonight what is time really and to 26 00:01:58,040 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: talk about the concept of d group, you know, where 27 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: it comes from, what it means, what it needs, and 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: a lot other fun stuff. Are you guys familiar with 29 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: the growth as as a concept? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, 30 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and it's yeah, I I please, please, I mean, 31 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: it's one of those things that gets a lot of 32 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: like uh flak on one hand for people saying that 33 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: it's basically eco fascism, and then you have folks being like, no, 34 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: it's a it's a perfectly reasonable response to the kind 35 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: of endless growth attitude that got us into the environmental 36 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: catastrophe we're currently experiencing. That's yeah. I think that UM 37 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,920 Speaker 1: haven't released a video on de growth last week, and 38 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: having read through some of the comments have received, I've 39 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: come to the conclusion that there's no getting through to 40 00:02:55,280 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: some people. Yeah. People, people love to listen to like 41 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: a third of what you say and then get really 42 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: angry at what they think you said. Every time we 43 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: talk about like the value of of things like you know, 44 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: the four Thieves Vinegar Collective, you know, hacking different medicines 45 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: or training people being medics. Somebody hops on the subret 46 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: and said, I think it's kind of able. Is that 47 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: they think that, you know, people can replace doctors with 48 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: with street medics. No one, no one's ever made that case. 49 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: That that's not a thing that anyone has ever said. 50 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to make it my entire life mission to 51 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: only specifically make this case some gauze and water in 52 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: a bag. Yeah, yeah, doctors, but they must all die 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: when the revolution comes. They will only be replaced the 54 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: street that X. It's gonna be great. I'm texting all 55 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: of this to our friends Covet right now. Dr Hda. Yeah, 56 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: it's just it's just ridiculous. So people would literally project 57 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: what they think you said onto what you actually said. 58 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: It's very very obvious when it's taken place. I don't 59 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: know how they don't feel embarrassed. You know, a lot 60 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: of times I barely comment on things, I barely respond 61 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: to things, and when I do I check and recheck 62 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: and re check what the person has said. Then I 63 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: check and recheck and recheck what I see before I 64 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: get the statement, because I don't know how do not 65 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: feel embarrassed? Yeah, like everybody who has watched the video conceded. 66 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: You haven't watched it. It's just had like a term 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: search and then appeared and yeah and like that. Yeah, 68 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: come to engage you pretty much pretty much. But I mean, 69 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: if I were to be asleep for the algorithm, I 70 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: would say all that engagement helps, right, Yeah, yeah, I'm 71 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: sure it does. It helps. It helps one thing for sure, Yeah, 72 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: and help get up to a better place. Unfortunately, And 73 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: speaking of things that do not help us get to 74 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: a better place, I think it's the growth primarily is 75 00:04:52,400 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: about confronting this destructive ideology of growth. Is m know, 76 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: something we see all around us, something we interact with 77 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: a failure regular basis. You see the images of the 78 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 1: Amazon rainfor us being cut down to be um, turning 79 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: into soy farms until eventually it's made into a cattle 80 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: grease in fields. You talk about the constant expansion of 81 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: oil infrastructure. You talk about the constant expansion of mining operations. 82 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: You talk about the continued rise of fast fashion, that 83 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: people are extremely defensive whenever you try to criticize it. 84 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:37,359 Speaker 1: All of these systems, all of these industries, all of 85 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: these practices uh part of part and parcel, or rather 86 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: products of this ideology of growthism that capitalism is driven by. 87 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: And I know it may be strange for some people 88 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: to sort of the program from this idea of growth 89 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:07,159 Speaker 1: is like a aulterated could uncontroversially positive because you know, 90 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: natures like all about growth, right. You know, when you 91 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: think of growth, you think of a plant speaking out 92 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: to the soil. You think of a baby kitten growing 93 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 1: up to be a cat. You talk about like babies 94 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 1: becoming toddlers, becoming young children, becoming older children becoming you know, 95 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: tweens and teens and then finally adults and then from 96 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: there Joe Biden, Um, but you know, there's this whole 97 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: idea of growth, and that growth is like a natural 98 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: part of life. Not as true, but growth in life 99 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: does not go on and on and on and on. 100 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: You know, organisms grew up to a certain point and 101 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: then they maintain a healthy equilibrium, or at least they 102 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: try to. Um. Of course, health is not necessarily a 103 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,880 Speaker 1: natural state of affairs, because viruses are just as natural 104 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: as the cells they attack. And then you can also 105 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: get all uh femeral and talk about postal growth and 106 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: our life is a constant journey of personal growth and whatever. 107 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: But speaking materially, we can physically, growth has a limit. 108 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: People grow up to certain height, certain size, and so on, 109 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: and when growth doesn't stop, that's when we start running 110 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: into problems. As I understand, the reason that cancer is 111 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: so difficult to cure is because your own body turning 112 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: against you. It's your it's some of the many trillions 113 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 1: of your own cells deciding okay, time to just grow 114 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: and grow and grow without limit. And what happens in 115 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: most of those cases, and many of those cases rather unfortunately, 116 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: people die as a result. Say our bodies and our 117 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: own bodies. We understand that growth is not always positive, 118 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: and yet that's sick. Logic of growth for its own 119 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 1: sake is exactly what the global economy relies on. So 120 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: that's just think that's too much growth, too much money, 121 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: too much stuff. And you have all these wealthy nations 122 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: to continue to expand and grow and attempt to hoard. 123 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: I heard one person use the analogy a Camemberhood was 124 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: UM talking about how capitalism is now attempting to the 125 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: new frontiers. For capitalism is to expand and colonize our 126 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: own minds, UM. And so every economy, every sector, every 127 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: industry is expected to keep growing, keep growing, keep growing, 128 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: no matter what. One of the responses that I got 129 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: on my video on the growth is that, oh, well, 130 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: you're seeing that growth is this improwth? Isma is this 131 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: capitalist thing? But you know, China and USS are and 132 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: they grew and they industrialized, and they are just as 133 00:08:50,920 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: susceptible to ecological destruction and as any other capitalist country. 134 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: And that is true, but that's also out of why 135 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: I would consider those countries to be UM state capitalist 136 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: projects UM and not anything close to what our envisioned. 137 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: But of course, the moment you introduce any idea that 138 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: sounds even vaguely socially oriented, even vaguely ecologically oriented, UM, 139 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: people automatically assume you're trying to go for like new 140 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: United Soviet socialist Republic. But I think we need to 141 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: explore different paths to improve in quality of life, to 142 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: code and code developing. And that's a tricky subject I'll 143 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: get into a bit later, But we need to think 144 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: of way as that we can help people and help 145 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: people live better lives without relying on desperating the bias fare. 146 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: It's a tricky conversation to be had um because when 147 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: people think of growth, they think if it as a positive, 148 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 1: and when you criticize that positive, they think the inverse. 149 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: They think, you're trying to make everybody degrade and go 150 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: down to like a worst quality of life, to rush 151 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: back to to like a lower life expectancy, what transform 152 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: a mode of production back to like hunting and gathering. 153 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: But the truth is that deep growth as a movement 154 00:10:36,720 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 1: as system of thought is more so about trying to 155 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: find that balance between a good quality of life for all, 156 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: not just this unequal quality of life that we see 157 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: around the world and the capitalism while also balancing the 158 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: fact that we live in material world. We live on 159 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:01,359 Speaker 1: a planet that has limited resources. When to balance those resources, 160 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: we need to consider and be good stewards of, you know, 161 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: uh planet that we share with other living creatures. Capitalism 162 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 1: really is driven by this ideology of growthism because it 163 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: is structurally incentivized structurally as a structural imperative in the 164 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: capitalist system. It's not exclusively driven by greed, as some 165 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: people assume. I think that's that that this idea that 166 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: it's all up to, like personalities, kind of hampers people's 167 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: ability to analyze systems because it doesn't matter whether, um 168 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: we suddenly put each and every CEO in a position 169 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: where they are all completely one hundreds of altruistics. It's 170 00:11:56,679 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: not that they're all being driven by greed. It's because 171 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: and the capitalism. You know, capitalists own capital, and capital 172 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: that is stagnant is capital that is losing its value, 173 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: and so they look for things to invest in so 174 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:19,359 Speaker 1: they can grow their capital. Capital being anything from real estate, factories, machinery, 175 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: intellectual property, financial assets. What is the money that they 176 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: used to make more money. If it's stagnant, it's losing value, 177 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: and they're trying to increase its value. Um As they 178 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: see gold companies that have growing profits year after year, 179 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:36,839 Speaker 1: so their capital will grow year after year, and if 180 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: that growth slews down, they pull out and look elsewhere 181 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: to invest. Companies that fail to grow will lose their 182 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: investors and collapse, And so companies do everything in their 183 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: power to maintain growth so they can maintain the investors, 184 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 1: regardless of how much havoc they reach upon the world. 185 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: So if any barriers are preventing their growth, they had 186 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: to build those those barriers. You know, environment of protections 187 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: and barriers labelow as a barriers. Protections policies are barriers. 188 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: The commons were a barrier, Indigenous populations were a barrier, 189 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. All of these acts 190 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 1: of violence open up these new frontiers for growth, for appropriation, 191 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 1: for accumulation, and so incomes the growth. Or the French 192 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: term for it is the croissant um. And I know 193 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: that I likely pronounced that incorrectly. It's the French. We 194 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: can disrespect them precisely. I think um, things that sit 195 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: down reflect on their nucleuing empire um. But anyway, this 196 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: idea of the growth really first was developed. I have 197 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: to say that I appreciate what the intellectuals have come 198 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: up with. They're good at sit down and thinking about stuff. 199 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: I'll give them that. I'll give them that. So there's 200 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: one French intellectual guy named Andrea Course in nine seventy 201 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 1: two coined the Tomb Deacons Saint French for the growth 202 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: go has basically posed a question that remains at the 203 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: center of the growth, is the Earth's balance for which 204 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: no growth or even the growth of material production is 205 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: a necessary condition compatible with the survival of the capitalist system. 206 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: I would avenge to say no, it is not in 207 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: any way compactable with this travel of the capitalist system, 208 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 1: because we have seen it in this short period of 209 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: time that the capitalism has existed, it has rapidly triggered 210 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: the capital scene, or as some people regrettably called the anthropocene, 211 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: it has rapidly triggered the sixth great mass ext accourn 212 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: event um. And so I do not believe that the 213 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: Earth's balance it's compatible with its survival. And so the 214 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 1: Croissant movement of activists mainly flourished in Leon in the 215 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: early two thousand's, in the week of protests for car 216 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: free cities, communal meals in the streets, food cooperatives, and 217 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: campaigns against advertising. It went from France to Italy, where 218 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: agree and anty globalization activists h mobilized against this whole 219 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:45,680 Speaker 1: concept of capitalisms constant encroachments and expansion and growth expanded 220 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: into Catalonia in Spain in two thousens six. It eventually 221 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: built up to the size where it could sustain a movement. 222 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: A magazine rather Croissant, which currently sells a few thousand 223 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: copies a month. Around the same time, in two thousand four, 224 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: a research and activist named France Swash Schneider took a 225 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: year long walking tour on a donkey to disseminated growth 226 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: throughout France and that received some media coverage. Eventually, Schneider 227 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: founded an academic collective known as Research and the Growth 228 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: along with Dennis Bayonne and Februarri Fleepoo, and they eventually 229 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: began International conferences went in Paris into those and eight, 230 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: and the second in Barcelona, so the English term d 231 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: growth was officially used for the first time at the 232 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: Paris conference, which remarked the booth of the international research 233 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: community around the growth. Following the success of the conferences 234 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: in Paris and Barcelona, other conferences were held in Montreal 235 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: in eleven, Venice in twelve, Leipzig fourteen uh and the 236 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: Growth as an idea spread to groups in Flanders, Switzerland, Finland, 237 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 1: pooland Greece, Germany, Portugal, Norway, Denmark, Czech Republic. I guess 238 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: it's a check here now, Mexico, Brazil, Puerto Rico, Canada, Bulgaria, 239 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: Romania and elsewhere. The growth as an idea as in 240 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,639 Speaker 1: a movement has been getting ground despite the criticisms that 241 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: somehow that oh, well, you can't call it something negative 242 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: like the growth, because people wouldn't be you know, happy 243 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: with it or whatever. Um. And I'll get to that 244 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: criticism and in a bit. But it's been steadily gruin 245 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: since it was first you know, developed in the nineteen seventies. UM. 246 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 1: At this point in time, if you go on the 247 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: the Growth website, you will find thousands of articles and 248 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: studies in their library. And of course it's not to 249 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: say that because of concept has a lot of follow 250 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 1: us or thinkers or published works, it's automatically uh a, okay, 251 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 1: ultimately correct. But at this point in time, I think 252 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: a lot of people are look at direction we are 253 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: going in and recognizing that we cannot continue along this 254 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: path of growth, and so they are actively looking for 255 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: a way out, looking for a way to find that balance, 256 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: recognizing that capitalism is not compatible with the Earth's balance. 257 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: And so the Growth ultimately rejects the illusion of growth. 258 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: It calls to re politicize the public debate that has 259 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: been colonized by the a m of economism UM, that 260 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: has been driven towards as a social objective economic growth, 261 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 1: the growth as a project advocating for the democratically lead 262 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: shrinking of production and consumption with the aim of achieving 263 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: social justice and ecological sustainability. I think when some people 264 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: care degrowth, despite all the explanations out there, despite even 265 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: consumers explanations, they might still have this idea and they 266 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: had a de growth is this thing where bunch of 267 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: armed government sponsored environmental activists roll up and take your 268 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 1: car and your house and force you to live in 269 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: a cave. Um. But de grow, and how we de 270 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: grow our economy is going to rely on the popular 271 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: um involvement of the people. You know. It's not like 272 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: you could just snap your fingers or just decreate and 273 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: make it so um. It's not meant to be like 274 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: how it is under New liberalism. We have all this austerity. 275 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: The growth is supposed to be all of us coming 276 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: together to this to figure out how we can live 277 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: in alignment with our biosphere, with our bioregion, with the planet, 278 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: scaling down our individual and our community um supply chains, 279 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: and localizing our consumption in order to reduce the reliance 280 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: on this highly extractive, highly growth dependent capitalist global capitalists economy. 281 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 1: The growth also signifies a direction, a desired direction, one 282 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: in which society is use fewer natural resources and organize 283 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: and live much differently than they live today. The ideas 284 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: of you know, sharing, which is something that we teach 285 00:20:47,680 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: the preschoolers, simplicity, conviviality, care, and the commons primary concepts 286 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: in terms of what a decre society should look like. 287 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: AH In one of my previous podcast episodes that would 288 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: have discussed the commons a bit, so if anyone is 289 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: curious about what the commons are, they could check that out. 290 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: UM and of course on my channel also speak about 291 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: the commons as an institution and about libraries of things. 292 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: And so the growth has offered a sort of a 293 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:32,359 Speaker 1: framework that connects all these different ideas, concepts, proposals UM 294 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: with the criticism of growth, with the criticism of GDP, 295 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: with the criticism of commodification UM, the process that converts 296 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: social products and socio ecological services and relations into commodities 297 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: of the monetary value. On the constructive side, because the 298 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: growth is not just limited to criticism, do your imagines 299 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: reproductive economies of care, reclamation of all and the creation 300 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: of new commons. Man need and natural caring for commons 301 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 1: in communal forms of living and producing UM, liberating our 302 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: time from work and making it available to caring for 303 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: our communities and caring for our ecology. Because if you 304 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: think about all of the activities that are currently so 305 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: needed at this point in time in terms of ecological restoration, 306 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: in terms of um DE growth, they're not profitable. You know, 307 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: planting man grooves to shore up our shows, to defend 308 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: our shows from erosion and from storms, it is not profitable. 309 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: Replanting forests and sparking nature's processes of ecologial restoration not profitable. 310 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: And of course there is a whole sorts of ecosystem, economic, 311 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 1: political ecosystem dedicated to these kinds of projects. UM with 312 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: all the NGOs and government organizations involved in replanting the 313 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: Sahel region in Africa, for example, crazily create green wall. 314 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: But those projects tend to be right with issues and 315 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: a lack of intendence because they do not involve local 316 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: communities in the decision making surrounding UM that process of restoration. 317 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: And on top of that, of course, these projects are 318 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: not embedded in broad up project for the growth. So 319 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 1: a government be a government might be planting trees and 320 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 1: planting forests in one part of the country and extracting 321 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: and drilling in another part of the country. And so 322 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: there needs to be an integration of all these different 323 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: projects with a brother push and direction towards d crew. 324 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 1: I want to go back around to this idea that 325 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: m DE growth is a critique of GDP as a concept. Um, 326 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: the growth is not necessarily the same as negative GDP growth. 327 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 1: But when you consider how GDP is measured, as it's counted, 328 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: it's about financial transactions and not necessarily the non financial ones. 329 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: And so if we were to crean our economy, if 330 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: we were to de crew our society, um, we're not 331 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 1: going to be seeing the realy trus domestic activity increases 332 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: of two or three percent. Yeah, there's there's an old 333 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: like two eleven slogan that, uh, if when the bank 334 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: takes your house, that increases GDP. Right, that is true. 335 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: That is true. A lot of uh, positive and constructive 336 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 1: and beneficial actions that people do on a regular basis 337 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: do not contribute to GDP, whereas entire destructive industries contributes significantly. 338 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: It's every month. We started this by talking by comparing 339 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: kind of the quest for endless growth to a cancer, 340 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: but I almost think it's a better comparison. Is Like, 341 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: you know, there was that article early this year about 342 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: how specific kinds of people, particularly like rich weirdos in 343 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: the tech industry, are paying thousands of dollars to have 344 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: their legs broken and like lengthened so that they can 345 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: be like, that's that's that's that's a that's a shipload 346 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: of how act like, yeah, I mean it's weaker, they 347 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: can never we can never run again. But you are 348 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: technically taller, so well on in this growth, Yeah go up? 349 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:08,479 Speaker 1: Much of a coward to wear platforms? Yeah yeah, so 350 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: you don't you don't have the hotspot to be a 351 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 1: short king. Unbelievable. Sometimes I do think that, like when 352 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,399 Speaker 1: anthropologists on civilization the wonder why we were so fascinated 353 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,919 Speaker 1: about line go up, But then they realized with the 354 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: whole point of the civilization was line go up? Like 355 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 1: that that was our deity truly, truly, it's it's it's 356 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, my eyes my eyes bleed sometimes thinking 357 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:40,639 Speaker 1: about how this whole system is structured and how it 358 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: just continues to chug along. But um, that's why I 359 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: spend so much time writing and reading and talking about 360 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: these issues, right, trying to find a whee out, And 361 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 1: so that is also what the growth advocates are looking 362 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 1: to do, the looking for we out, you know, way 363 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 1: for a better life first of all, which brings me 364 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: to the whole criticism of the growth that is essentially optics. Right. 365 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: They say it's not appropriate to use a negative word 366 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: to signify desired positive changes, but the growth advocates deliberately choose. 367 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: I mean, in my view, I said that I'm fine 368 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,280 Speaker 1: with either quality growth or qualitate post growth or whatever. 369 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: But the growth advocates have chosen the term de growth 370 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: for a reason. The use of negation for a positive 371 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: project is aimed towards creating that sort of um questioning, 372 00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: you know, towards getting people to reconsider this idea of 373 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: growth as a ultimate could to de colonize imagination that 374 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:59,959 Speaker 1: has been dominated by this whole capitalist conception of the future. 375 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 1: Consistent of you know, line go up. Is this automatic 376 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: assumption and association of growth with better that the word 377 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: the growth wants to dismantle, wants to be construct and 378 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 1: so de growth. It is a deliberately subversive slogan. And 379 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: of course the growth is not aimed at, you know, 380 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: deconstructing the most necessary sectors, the devolved in the most 381 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:34,400 Speaker 1: necessary sectors. We're not talking about de grow and education, 382 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: de grow in, medical care, de grow in you know, well, 383 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: renewable energy is kind of a tricky subject. But DeCrow 384 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: and renewable energy, UM, it's more so about primarily and 385 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: first of all, targets in the most duty and destructive industries, 386 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, the financial sector. UM. We would prefer to 387 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 1: see institutions like health and energy Asian flourish rather than 388 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: crew or develop. We want to change that is qualitative, 389 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 1: not necessarily quantitative. You want to see a flourishing of 390 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:19,720 Speaker 1: the arts, of flourishing of philosophies, of flourishing of um 391 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 1: vernacular architecture is a flourishing of the creativity of people. 392 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: And that's qualitative. It's not about oh, well, line go up, 393 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: so things more good, you know. It's not about we 394 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: have ten industrial output last year, now we have twelve. 395 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: That's so good. You know. We want something. We want 396 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: quality to change that. And if most people released sit 397 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: down and think about what they want in their life, 398 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of people are gonna are 399 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: gonna think of, Oh well, I want next year's iPhone 400 00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: to have a twelve increase in the camera quality. Yeah, 401 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's more so that you want better you know, 402 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: rest um more um connected communities, healthier commute or healthier 403 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:23,280 Speaker 1: UM I guess city layout. Um, it's more conducive to interaction. 404 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: It's more conducive to um small scale movement. It's not about, 405 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: like I said, you know, it's not about trying to 406 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: get Lyne to go up cryptocurrency. As I think about it, 407 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: it's like perhaps the best example or like n f 408 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: t s, right, like they created a bunch of value 409 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: that literally created nothing. I had nothing other than exchange 410 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 1: value exactly exactly. It's just nonsense. Yeah, pretend money talk 411 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: for a moment about like development as a concept, right, 412 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: because another common criticism of the growth is that, oh well, 413 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: what about the global South, what about the Third world? 414 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: What about all the poor countries and poor people of 415 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: the world. You just want to leave them behind. And 416 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: for one, I find it strange because the person in question, 417 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 1: at least the video response that I got, simplicitly assumes 418 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: that I am from like a global North nichean and 419 00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 1: I'm just fine sitting down with my you know, um 420 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 1: same day Amazon delivery and Starbucks and um, sprawling suburbs 421 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: and whatever it is that you know they imagine my 422 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: lifestyle is like. But I think first and foremost parts 423 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: of the whole move a t growth is to consider um, 424 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: like I said, reasonably improving people's quality of life worldwide, 425 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 1: which capitalism is not interested in. Coupitism will maintain a 426 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: perpetual under class because they're easier to exploit. And so 427 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: this is whole idea of development, right that has this baggage. Um, 428 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 1: it's very colonial bagguage. But it's development is really like growth. 429 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: It's meant to have like a limit. It's an unfolding 430 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: towards a predetermined end. You know. An embryo eventually develops 431 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: into a fetus, so she eventually develops into a baby, 432 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: She eventually develops into a child, She eventually develops into 433 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: an adult who then ages and dies. But development for 434 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 1: the sake of development, with no end, with no ams, 435 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: with no goals, with no sense of um self critique 436 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: or questioning, it's a disaster waiting to happen. I can 437 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: look at my own country and from trenon to vehicle. 438 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: For those who don't know and think of things that 439 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,479 Speaker 1: need to get better, right, things that would really improve 440 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: people's quality of life. Um. To think about the fact 441 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: that we really need to get rid of our reliance 442 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: and cars and bring back our training system, um that 443 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: was dismantled so long ago. I could think about the 444 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: fact that we need to improve our food or autonomy 445 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: because we are extremely reliant on food imports. UM. Things 446 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: like that I can think about that would improve people's 447 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: ability to live well and sustainably on this island. But 448 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: those things, those aims, those are those are cools, right, 449 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking, oh, development, development, development, I'm thinking, Okay, 450 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: there's point B. How do I get there from point A? 451 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 1: How are we going to meet people's basic needs? And 452 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: this is who and the whole Deep With project is 453 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: really about that whole inversion between the Goloble North and 454 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: the Global Salt. Right, the Global North needs to reduce 455 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: their demand for a lot of the resources and goods 456 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,239 Speaker 1: so that they're more accessible to the Globle Salt. But 457 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: in making those things more accessible place, isn't the Global 458 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: Salt are not meant to follow the same path that 459 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,879 Speaker 1: the Goloble North took. That put us in our mess 460 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: the whole ideas that we need to find a different path, 461 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: We need to find a different trajectory, We need to 462 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: think for ourselves instead of trying to keep up with 463 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: the junes Is in order to the Tuman what a 464 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: good life would mean for us in our ecological niche, 465 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: in our geographical situation. Yeah, what it was is like 466 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: we did, we did we we did. We did this 467 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: in China, right, Like we we did the entire development thing, 468 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: and the product is now like people literally walking eighteen 469 00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: miles on foot after having broken out of a fox 470 00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: con factory that they've been locked in and forced to 471 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: make iPhones because someone had like three people have gotten COVID, 472 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 1: so they just like locked everyone in the factory. So 473 00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: like you know it. Yeah, And I think it's also 474 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: sort of like briefly worth mentioning that like development as 475 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: a concept and the sort of developmental economics field was 476 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: like this was like specifically developed in sort of the 477 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,760 Speaker 1: bowels of the American State Department as as a response 478 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: to like basically as like as a way as a 479 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: kind of like simplified capitalist version of Marxist theory they 480 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: could throw out to sort of like explain what was 481 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 1: happening in like as as a way as a sort 482 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: of an alternative demarxism for like all these sort of 483 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: like newly post colonial nations. And you know, it's gone 484 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: about as well as you would expect. I think of 485 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 1: the valles of the state department to be alternative departments. Like, well, 486 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 1: this has been fun. Um, I love I don't know 487 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: thinking about capital. I mean this is it's this is 488 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: important because like we always need to be thinking about 489 00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: what comes next. This is constantly like a problem that 490 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 1: the left has and certainly a problem the liberals have, 491 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: which is that, um, the vision of the future is 492 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 1: very rarely anything more than fighting against kind of the 493 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,879 Speaker 1: demons of the moment, as opposed to like what does 494 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: it actually look like to get ourselves to a better place, 495 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: to a place that's more sustainable, both in an environmental 496 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: level and in like in a manner of human ecology too, 497 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,080 Speaker 1: And um, yeah, I think this is like, this is 498 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,360 Speaker 1: kind of the hard work that people need to be 499 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: thinking about. Wherever you wind up landing on on d 500 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: growth as either a concept or as a term, like 501 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: these are the paths we have to start beating out 502 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: of the bush, you know exactly. So they are many 503 00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 1: potential that have already been thoughts open. There many that 504 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: have yet to be im g in Ecuador, the project 505 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: of Sumac, say and really the rest of Latin America, 506 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: the idea of green Vivere in much of South Africa, 507 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: the concept of UBUNTU in India, the Gandhian economy of permanence. 508 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: All of these projects are more explore alternatives to quote 509 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,720 Speaker 1: and quote development, alternats of trajectories to a good life 510 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: UM that is rooted in environmental justice, that is based 511 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: in a retreat from the narrow confines of the global 512 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: North's imagination UM and what that imagination has promoted worldwide 513 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,479 Speaker 1: and forced upon the rest of the world. The growth 514 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: requires us to think for ourselves, to think creatively about 515 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: how we plan on creating a good life in the 516 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: context of capitalisms degradation, the Earth's degradation due to climate change, 517 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 1: and what that will mean for our future. Is we 518 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 1: really need to sit and think about what our future 519 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: as a species, what of our future as regions, our 520 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: future as communities of future as individuals is going to 521 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 1: look like. What trajectory, what path we want to take, 522 00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 1: and how we begin that journey. And so in the 523 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 1: second part of this two part series, I intend to 524 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,640 Speaker 1: discuss what concepts are a sent show for the growth, 525 00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: the steps we can take to move towards the growth, 526 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: and how we can integrate the growth in a kiss politics. 527 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: All right, and that's going to be the end of 528 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: part one. Come back tomorrow for part two and uh, 529 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: probably more discussion of that weird surgery. Rich people get 530 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 1: to have their legs broken repeatedly until they're taller. It 531 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: Could Happen Here is a production of cool zone Media. 532 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool zone Media, visit our website 533 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 534 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 535 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could 536 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 1: Happen here, updated monthly at cool zone media dot com 537 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,360 Speaker 1: slash sources. Thanks for listening.