1
00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:05,200
Speaker 1: So why isn't soccer more popular in the US? I

2
00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 1: remember this being one of the most confusing things for

3
00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,080
Speaker 1: me when I moved here from Mexico as a teenager,

4
00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: along with US grocery stores keeping the air conditioning beyond

5
00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:20,360
Speaker 1: freezing or putting peanut butter and jelly together in a sandwich, Like,

6
00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: why does the US insist on not joining the rest

7
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:27,880
Speaker 1: of the world and enjoying what is obviously the best sport,

8
00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 1: the sport with the most drama, the most dazzling displace

9
00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,199
Speaker 1: of skill, the best storylines, and of course I have

10
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:41,600
Speaker 1: to mention the sport with the hottest players, like, just

11
00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,360
Speaker 1: watch soccer. Life would be so much better. It's like

12
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,520
Speaker 1: the same way that Americans don't use the metric system

13
00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,440
Speaker 1: or celsius, something that the whole world recognizes, and the

14
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,440
Speaker 1: US is just like, nah, will pass. And at this

15
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,040
Speaker 1: point we've kind of all just taken it for granted

16
00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 1: that soccer is just not a thing that Americans are into.

17
00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,080
Speaker 1: Maybe it's because they don't like the fact that you

18
00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,200
Speaker 1: can end a game with like one to nothing, but like,

19
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,280
Speaker 1: I want to know more about this. Why did it

20
00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,080
Speaker 1: turn out this way? Why didn't soccer become a national pastime,

21
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,479
Speaker 1: the same way that baseball, basketball, and football, even hockey did.

22
00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:24,200
Speaker 1: Why isn't soccer an American sport? Then I started working

23
00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 1: on the show, and I realized I may have it

24
00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:27,360
Speaker 1: all wrong.

25
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 2: I would say the game, as we know it was

26
00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,840
Speaker 2: born in England and Scotland. But what we like to

27
00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,000
Speaker 2: say is that it came to the US before it

28
00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:43,040
Speaker 2: got to Brazil. We had a pro league before Spain

29
00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,319
Speaker 2: and Italy. I mean, it was a game that was

30
00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,160
Speaker 2: exported and the US got it almost before anybody else.

31
00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,560
Speaker 1: I recently spoke with two guys who dispute the idea

32
00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:56,280
Speaker 1: that the US is not a soccer nation. I'm not

33
00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,960
Speaker 1: going to lie. I'm a little shocked to hear that

34
00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,560
Speaker 1: people we're playing soccer as a organized sport in the

35
00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,360
Speaker 1: way we know it in the US before I got

36
00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:07,960
Speaker 1: to Brazil. It's making my head hurt thinking about that.

37
00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,519
Speaker 2: The Brazilian fan I was sitting next to watching a

38
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,080
Speaker 2: Champions League final once was also surprised.

39
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,920
Speaker 1: To hear that the person you just heard is Kirk Rudell.

40
00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 1: He's the co host of a soccer history podcast called

41
00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,600
Speaker 1: an American Game. Kirk hosts the podcast with his longtime

42
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:27,120
Speaker 1: soccer friend Tom McCabe. Tom happens to be a major

43
00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 1: soccer scholar who's teaching at the University of Notre Dame

44
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:31,240
Speaker 1: in London.

45
00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:33,320
Speaker 3: I have a PhD in it.

46
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 1: Sorry, what's the actual PhD?

47
00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,480
Speaker 3: I have a PhD in American history. We met in

48
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 3: college at Princeton University, so I've been studying this stuff

49
00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:48,040
Speaker 3: since my undergraduate days, and now I teach courses at Rutgers.

50
00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:49,960
Speaker 3: I taught the global history of soccer.

51
00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 2: Everyone wants to be in Tom's class.

52
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:53,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, easy grader, right.

53
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,760
Speaker 1: Tom and Kirk were both goalies together on the Princeton

54
00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:58,240
Speaker 1: soccer team back in the day. They tell me that

55
00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,079
Speaker 1: if you look at the numbers today, soccer is actually

56
00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,560
Speaker 1: quite popular in the US. It's the number three sport,

57
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,519
Speaker 1: ahead of baseball. I know, surprising, but let's be honest,

58
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,440
Speaker 1: Soccer it still has a reputation of being the sort

59
00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: of sad kid in the corner of US sports, the

60
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,799
Speaker 1: domain of suburban children, Latino immigrants, and that one guy

61
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,520
Speaker 1: who studied abroad in Europe who won't stop talking about it.

62
00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 1: So clearly more people need to hear what Kirk and

63
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,080
Speaker 1: Tom told me. That surprised me soccer has been in

64
00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:34,160
Speaker 1: the US longer than in freaking Brazil. So today we're

65
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 1: diving into US soccer history with Kirk and Tom to

66
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,880
Speaker 1: figure out why soccer has this foreign reputation and where

67
00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:50,880
Speaker 1: it truly belongs in the American imagination. From Futuro Studios,

68
00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,680
Speaker 1: I'm Fernande Chavarri and this is American Football, a show

69
00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:08,200
Speaker 1: about soccer culture in the US and it's underdog roots.

70
00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: The story we're going to tell today that we'll make

71
00:04:12,320 --> 00:04:16,479
Speaker 1: everything about soccer in the US makes sense, starts in

72
00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 1: the eighteen hundreds, eighteen sixty nine to be specific. The

73
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,960
Speaker 1: Civil War just ended a few years back. Euleas's Grant

74
00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 1: is the president, the telegraph and roller skates have just

75
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 1: been invented, and.

76
00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,920
Speaker 3: Eighteen sixty nine is that first intercollegiate college football game.

77
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,760
Speaker 1: It's actually hard to one hundred percent pin down the

78
00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,760
Speaker 1: first ever soccer game in the US, but I'll tell

79
00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,840
Speaker 1: you two things. Back in sixteen twelve, English writer William

80
00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 1: Stratchy described Native Americans playing a game where they kicked

81
00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,359
Speaker 1: the ball around with their feet, which he dubbed foot ball.

82
00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,480
Speaker 1: The second thing is that it's widely accepted that the

83
00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 1: first major game in the US was between two rival

84
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,120
Speaker 1: universities in New Jersey, just twenty miles apart, Rutgers versus Princeton.

85
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 1: Picture this two teams of twenty five sideburned, preppee Victorian

86
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,359
Speaker 1: era men in their everyday clothes, all running after a

87
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:19,880
Speaker 1: ball in search of glory.

88
00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,680
Speaker 3: Some people think it was a college soccer game. Other

89
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,080
Speaker 3: people think it was a college grid iron football game.

90
00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,920
Speaker 3: So it also has that controversy embedded in it.

91
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,200
Speaker 1: Grid Iron football, by the way, I didn't know what

92
00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,400
Speaker 1: this was, but it's an old name for what we

93
00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,640
Speaker 1: now call American football a la NFL. And the reason

94
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,479
Speaker 1: people can't decide whether this first game was soccer or

95
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,919
Speaker 1: American football is well, see both sports were originally the

96
00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:50,080
Speaker 1: same sport, two branches of the same tree, a tree

97
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 1: that goes back to England.

98
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,320
Speaker 3: It was definitely a hybrid game at that time in

99
00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,280
Speaker 3: eighteen sixty nine. But you have to step back and

100
00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:00,360
Speaker 3: really go across the Atlantic Ocean and look at what's

101
00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:05,279
Speaker 3: going on in England first, and there's two types of football.

102
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,840
Speaker 3: One comes kind of out of the Middle Ages and

103
00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,080
Speaker 3: it's folk or festival football, so it's played around holidays, Christmas,

104
00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:14,919
Speaker 3: New year's and it could be one part of a

105
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 3: village versus another part of the village, and the objective

106
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,279
Speaker 3: is to get it from one part of town to

107
00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 3: another part of town, you know, like across a line,

108
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,279
Speaker 3: or it could be a little brook. And they were violent,

109
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 3: kind of mass brawls, and then that almost dies out

110
00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,080
Speaker 3: and the game kind of bubbles up in elite boarding

111
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,120
Speaker 3: schools in England, So think of like Eton and Harrow,

112
00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:44,480
Speaker 3: like Harry Potter like places, and posh schoolboys are running

113
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 3: after a ball, you know, to burn off energy between

114
00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,560
Speaker 3: their lessons. But each school had their own version. So

115
00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,320
Speaker 3: some preferred kicking, others wanted to pick up the ball

116
00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,159
Speaker 3: like at rugby and run with it. But it's all

117
00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,000
Speaker 3: called football. But when they graduate and come to London

118
00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:04,200
Speaker 3: and they want to play against one another, and there's

119
00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,280
Speaker 3: a push for a universal code, one set of rules,

120
00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,400
Speaker 3: and they meet it at tavern in eighteen sixty three

121
00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:15,640
Speaker 3: and they try to agree on some rules. The rugby

122
00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,760
Speaker 3: guys leave, take their ball and go home, and then

123
00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:24,000
Speaker 3: the kicking and dribbling folks stay and they set up

124
00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,680
Speaker 3: the rules to what gets called the simplest game association

125
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:29,400
Speaker 3: football or soccer.

126
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,080
Speaker 1: Wow. So the rugby guys had stayed and maybe had

127
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,000
Speaker 1: another drink or two, it would look different.

128
00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:36,200
Speaker 3: Correct. That's it.

129
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,520
Speaker 1: The whole rules discussion actually happened across a handful of meetings,

130
00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,280
Speaker 1: but definitely the rugby guys bowed out, and basically what

131
00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:52,640
Speaker 1: started out as the same game changes. Some people like

132
00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:55,120
Speaker 1: to carry the ball and run with it. They become

133
00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,320
Speaker 1: the rugby people, and then other people like to kick

134
00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,640
Speaker 1: the ball, they become this people. Meanwhile, across the Atlantic,

135
00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:08,160
Speaker 1: back in the United States, American college students are interested

136
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:11,600
Speaker 1: in copying this fashionable new sport that the rich kids

137
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:16,080
Speaker 1: are playing in England, this so called football. And that's

138
00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,800
Speaker 1: what's burst on the game I mentioned earlier in eighteen

139
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,280
Speaker 1: sixty nine between the two rival universities in New Jersey,

140
00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:30,040
Speaker 1: Princeton and Rutgers. We obviously don't have pictures of this

141
00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,360
Speaker 1: first game, but there's this one famous painting by William

142
00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,760
Speaker 1: Boyd that's supposed to capture it. It shows men ramming

143
00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:40,679
Speaker 1: into each other wearing trousers, collared shirts in what look

144
00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,760
Speaker 1: like formal shoes, and of course there's the like random

145
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:46,360
Speaker 1: person fallen on the ground very dramatically in the painting,

146
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:47,000
Speaker 1: which I love.

147
00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:50,600
Speaker 3: I like to use that very painting in my classes. Right,

148
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 3: So what game is being played here? You know, look

149
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:58,120
Speaker 3: for some clues, and there's some kicking, The ball is round,

150
00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 3: looks like there's a side locker goal in the back,

151
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,080
Speaker 3: so a lot of them say it looks like soccer.

152
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,840
Speaker 3: And then in other versions they're tackling one another and

153
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,160
Speaker 3: really fierce battles on the ground. So it has elements

154
00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,439
Speaker 3: of both and they can't really decide.

155
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,960
Speaker 1: Before we continue, let me give you a little more

156
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,280
Speaker 1: background on this first US soccer game. For years, Rutgers

157
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,360
Speaker 1: and Princeton students have had this rivalry where they're going

158
00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,680
Speaker 1: back and forth trying to steal a Revolutionary War era

159
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:31,520
Speaker 1: cannon from one another. You know, typical frat boy stuff,

160
00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 1: but just in the eighteen hundreds. Anyway, at the time,

161
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,920
Speaker 1: schools were not integrated yet. So all the students are

162
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 1: white young men, mostly pretty wealthy, and at some point

163
00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,600
Speaker 1: they decide to settle their dispute via baseball, and Princeton

164
00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: demolishes Rutgers forty to two a massacre. So to get

165
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:57,600
Speaker 1: the revenge, Rutgers challenges Princeton to this football game, and

166
00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 1: the scene is set. The game is on November sixth,

167
00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,480
Speaker 1: So let's just imagine that it's a chilly autumn day

168
00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,160
Speaker 1: in the East Coast. Maybe there's some fall foliage. Each

169
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 1: team nominates a captain. One of them will become the

170
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,120
Speaker 1: future Chief Justice of the New Jersey Supreme Court, the

171
00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:20,720
Speaker 1: other a prominent pastor, but for now they're both just

172
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:25,400
Speaker 1: college students about to make sports history. Before the game,

173
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,000
Speaker 1: the two captains get together to try to work out

174
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,000
Speaker 1: what rules they're going to use this time, and this

175
00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,200
Speaker 1: is what they come up with.

176
00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:35,800
Speaker 3: There's a round rubber ball. You can't carry it, you

177
00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:39,120
Speaker 3: can only kick it, dribble it, and then something what

178
00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,240
Speaker 3: they you know, batting it with your hand, like punching it.

179
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,800
Speaker 3: You can punch it, but you can't grab it and

180
00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,240
Speaker 3: run with it, so that is a no no.

181
00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:51,160
Speaker 1: Okay okay, So no grabbing the ball, just running mostly kicking.

182
00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: This sounds like soccer to me, but when you hear

183
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 1: other details about the game, definitely not soccer as we

184
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,120
Speaker 1: know it today. To tell the different between the teams,

185
00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,480
Speaker 1: since they were all wearing prep school uniforms, essentially, the

186
00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,880
Speaker 1: Rutgers boys wrapped red scarves around their heads like turbins.

187
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:09,679
Speaker 1: I wish there was a photo of this.

188
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:15,840
Speaker 2: People are wearing like heavy leather work boots with hobnails

189
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:16,880
Speaker 2: or whatever in the bottom.

190
00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,679
Speaker 1: This game was written about in the November eighteen sixty

191
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:23,480
Speaker 1: nine edition of The Targem, the Rugger student newspaper. Before

192
00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,599
Speaker 1: the game started, they wrote.

193
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:30,079
Speaker 4: Grim looking players, silently stripping each one, surrounded by sympathetic friends.

194
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,079
Speaker 4: Well around each of the captains was a little crowd

195
00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 4: intent on giving advice and saying as much as possible.

196
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,200
Speaker 1: I am a little curious about that silent stripping anyway.

197
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,800
Speaker 1: The Targam also wrote.

198
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,319
Speaker 4: The appearance of the Princeton men was very different from

199
00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,679
Speaker 4: that of our own players. They were almost without exception,

200
00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,520
Speaker 4: tall and muscular, while the majority of our twenty five

201
00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:56,840
Speaker 4: are small and light.

202
00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,719
Speaker 1: It's three pm. The whistle blows, and suddenly these makeshift

203
00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 1: turbine wearing college students are charging at each other with

204
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:13,720
Speaker 1: quote headlong running while shouting and frantic kicking. Overall, it

205
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,800
Speaker 1: sounds pretty chaotic. Kirk says that a guy named Big

206
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:20,120
Speaker 1: Mike on the Princeton side keeps knocking everybody down.

207
00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,600
Speaker 2: Much more of a reference to those medieval town games,

208
00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,760
Speaker 2: I mean, really more of a melee than a game.

209
00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,560
Speaker 1: The first game also featured the first ever trash talk

210
00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,080
Speaker 1: from the sidelines.

211
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,280
Speaker 2: Supposing a Rutgers professor at yelled at a Princeton player,

212
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,839
Speaker 2: you will come to no Christian and.

213
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,920
Speaker 1: So serious, very serious. The Princeton players were on average

214
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:48,479
Speaker 1: physically bigger, but Kirk and Tom say Rutgers had better teamwork,

215
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,959
Speaker 1: and in the end Rutgers won six to four. One

216
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,600
Speaker 1: Princeton student was quoted saying that after the game, Rutgers

217
00:12:56,800 --> 00:12:58,640
Speaker 1: ran them out of town and they had to rush

218
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:04,040
Speaker 1: away in their carriages. But other accounts say that the

219
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: two teams spend that evening feasting and getting drunk together.

220
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:13,080
Speaker 3: There's a meal, there's drinking, there's singing of songs and

221
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 3: recitations of poems. It's more than just the physical encounter.

222
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:20,520
Speaker 1: What was the aftermath of the game.

223
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,880
Speaker 3: The aftermath was a rematch, right, So a week later

224
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:28,880
Speaker 3: they meeted Princeton and Princeton wins eight to nothing, and

225
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,040
Speaker 3: then there's going to be the third game, the decider.

226
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,400
Speaker 3: But it's too distracting for the students who are supposed

227
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 3: to be focusing on their studies. You know, the college

228
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,880
Speaker 3: administrators and the professors squash it. And it doesn't happen,

229
00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:45,800
Speaker 3: but college football is born. Princeton Rutgers want to play again,

230
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:50,160
Speaker 3: then Columbia and New York City, Yale, Harvard. In the

231
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 3: next few years, there starts to be a mania of

232
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,760
Speaker 3: fever for it, and what really needs to get sorted

233
00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,800
Speaker 3: out are what rules they're going to play by.

234
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,199
Speaker 1: But just as they're trying to figure out the rules

235
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,880
Speaker 1: and propel the United States into a soccer nation, the

236
00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 1: villain of her story makes an appearance enter Harvard. That's

237
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:36,480
Speaker 1: after the break. This is American football. I'm Fernande Charvari.

238
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 1: That question of what rules are the colleges going to

239
00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: play by, well, Harvard ends up having an outsized role

240
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,200
Speaker 1: in the decision making. See most of the other universities

241
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,160
Speaker 1: at this moment are playing the kicking version of the game,

242
00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: but in Boston's prep schools that feed into Harvard, they're

243
00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 1: more into the version of football that's about carrying the

244
00:14:58,000 --> 00:14:59,280
Speaker 1: ball and running around with it.

245
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,880
Speaker 3: So the Harvard game would have been carrying the ball

246
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,080
Speaker 3: trying to get it across a goal line, so it

247
00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:12,200
Speaker 3: would have had elements of both soccer and gridiron football,

248
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 3: so it was a hybrid game.

249
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,800
Speaker 1: And then there's a fateful trip of all places to Canada.

250
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: Harvard goes to McGill University in eighteen seventy four and.

251
00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,160
Speaker 3: They played two games up there. They play one by

252
00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:27,440
Speaker 3: Harvard rules and then they play the other one by

253
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,520
Speaker 3: McGill rules, which is like English rugby. And they like

254
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 3: the McGill rules, and they see some other things that

255
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,080
Speaker 3: they like as well.

256
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 1: Kirk says, the Harvard guys were just overall impressed by

257
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 1: how swanky the McGill students were.

258
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:44,680
Speaker 2: Apparently, the Harvard guys went up to McGill and all

259
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:49,520
Speaker 2: the McGill guys had matching uniforms that had been like

260
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:51,240
Speaker 2: tailored for them in London.

261
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:51,760
Speaker 1: Wow.

262
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 2: And the Harvard guys thought that was very cool and

263
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:56,920
Speaker 2: very elegant, and so everything else the McGill guys were

264
00:15:56,920 --> 00:16:00,760
Speaker 2: doing seemed extremely cool. And the thing that the gool

265
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,600
Speaker 2: guys were doing was playing with an oblong leather ball

266
00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: and doing the carrying version of the game.

267
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,080
Speaker 1: They just wanted to be fancy.

268
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, they went fox hunting on that trip, and then

269
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 3: there was a gala and there's beautiful women in gowns.

270
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,680
Speaker 3: So I mean it was very influential. It's almost like

271
00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,320
Speaker 3: very posh high society and very different than the immigrant game.

272
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 1: The immigrant game. Even in eighteen sixty nine, soccer, the

273
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,720
Speaker 1: version of football you play with your feet, was in

274
00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,040
Speaker 1: the minds of many Americans the game of working class immigrants.

275
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:42,280
Speaker 2: There were people playing what we would more recognize as

276
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,440
Speaker 2: soccer in the dusty lots next to the big threadmills

277
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 2: in industrial New Jersey. And in the same way, it

278
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 2: was English and Scottish people coming over and bringing the

279
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,240
Speaker 2: game with them, and the game was their recreation after

280
00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 2: a hard week of work. But it was There's also

281
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,640
Speaker 2: a lot of people resented these immigrants coming in with

282
00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,119
Speaker 2: their game, and so sometimes they would steal the ball

283
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:07,040
Speaker 2: and kick it away.

284
00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,359
Speaker 1: And yes, you might be asking the same thing I was,

285
00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,280
Speaker 1: didn't The caring version of the game aka rugby, also

286
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:20,040
Speaker 1: come from immigrants too, from English immigrants. Here's the thing, though,

287
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,640
Speaker 1: this was a quote unquote different. Immigrant rugby was seen

288
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: as more of a rich kid sport in England, so

289
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,040
Speaker 1: it didn't have the same stigma anyway. On one hand,

290
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,000
Speaker 1: you have the soot stained mill workers playing with their feet,

291
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: and on the other the fancy Harvard boys going out

292
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,439
Speaker 1: fox hunting with those well tailored dudes in Montreal. So

293
00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,280
Speaker 1: after their posh football weekend in Canada, the students go

294
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 1: back home ready to spread the gospel of a rugby

295
00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:48,840
Speaker 1: like game where you carry the ball.

296
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,920
Speaker 3: They're going to return to Cambridge and influence the other colleges,

297
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 3: right so much so were Princeton's going to drop the

298
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,119
Speaker 3: kicking game, Yale's going to drop it, Columbia, Rutgers, and

299
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 3: they're all going to start playing what becomes what evolves

300
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,800
Speaker 3: into American college football, which is carrying the ball and

301
00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 3: handling it where it's very violent and quite physical.

302
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 1: Okay, so you might also be thinking, well, did all

303
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,359
Speaker 1: the other colleges just abandon the kicking version of the

304
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:23,200
Speaker 1: game just because Harvard said so? Yeah, because Harvard had clout.

305
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 3: It's one of the oldest institutions, it's respected, it's tied

306
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,359
Speaker 3: to Boston, one of the oldest towns in America. I

307
00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,520
Speaker 3: think they had this cachet. But they were pretty stubborn too.

308
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:41,120
Speaker 1: Harvard insists on their version. The other colleges fall in line,

309
00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,720
Speaker 1: and in eighteen seventy six, just thirteen years after the

310
00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 1: English football players met at their cute little pub and

311
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,240
Speaker 1: agreed on the rules for what would become soccer. The

312
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 1: colleges in the US get together in their own way

313
00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,920
Speaker 1: and put down the rules for what would become NFL

314
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,840
Speaker 1: style American football. And some blame hard.

315
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:01,639
Speaker 2: So, yes, blame Harvard.

316
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,400
Speaker 1: So we'll blame Harvard. That's all we need to know.

317
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 2: Right If we leave people with anything soccer history, immigrant stories,

318
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:11,280
Speaker 2: but just blame Harvard.

319
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. This is American football. I'm Fernande

320
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 1: Chari the way I see it after talking to Tom

321
00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:43,359
Speaker 1: and Kirk, this story of why American football took off

322
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:48,080
Speaker 1: and not soccer is at its heart about how the

323
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,399
Speaker 1: two sports were perceived in terms of class. It's a

324
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,680
Speaker 1: mindset that's still around today, the word immigrant being associated

325
00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,840
Speaker 1: with poverty. And yes, although the Canadians are off foreigners

326
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 1: in this instance, they get a pass because of the

327
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 1: wealth factor. Maybe because the US was still a young

328
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: country in many ways, a country eager to prove itself,

329
00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: a bit insecure, and as is still the case today

330
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: in the United States, perceptions of class and immigration were

331
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:20,800
Speaker 1: deeply intertwined.

332
00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 2: You want to assimilate, you want to get your piece,

333
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 2: and then you don't want to be associated with the

334
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 2: next group coming over. And I think some of those

335
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 2: Harvard football guys. They might have been just a generation

336
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,240
Speaker 2: or two off the boat themselves, but suddenly they're like, no, no, no,

337
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: we're fox hunting. We're suddenly and that becomes really inspiring.

338
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 2: That suddenly becomes aspirational for everybody else.

339
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,400
Speaker 1: We're the pinky up players.

340
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, not the guys in the mill playing soccer.

341
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,679
Speaker 1: Okay, we're done, case closed. Right, that's the story of

342
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 1: how American football beat out soccer for the hearts of

343
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: US sports fans. That's not really the end of the story.

344
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 1: Even without institutional support, immigrant enclives and working class enthusiasts

345
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: kept soccer thriving in their communities, and soccer shined once

346
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 1: again in different moments in American history. One of those

347
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 1: moments was in nineteen oh five, American football was in crisis.

348
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 1: The Chicago Tribune reported that in just one season, nineteen

349
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,479
Speaker 1: players died and one hundred and thirty eight were injured

350
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: playing football. The title of that article says it all

351
00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:35,919
Speaker 1: football Year's death Harvest. By other accounts, like the Cincinnati

352
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 1: Commercial Tribune, there were more than twenty five people who died.

353
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 1: It was so bad that the US president at the time,

354
00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,520
Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt brought together the leaders of the main universities

355
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 1: and said football is on trial. He told them that

356
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 1: they either fixed the sport or it would be banned.

357
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: And at the same time, there was a touring team

358
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 2: from England called Pilgrims FCAX that was coming to the

359
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 2: US and Canada and spending a couple months going around

360
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 2: playing games, and they were selling out. No one was

361
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 2: dying on the field. Thousands of people were enjoying watching them,

362
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: and there was a little moment of oh, well, soccer's

363
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:15,640
Speaker 2: kind of cool.

364
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: Okay, I like that. Soccer is cool. I don't care

365
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 1: if it was only cool because American football was too dangerous,

366
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: I'll take it. And then there's World War One. During

367
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: the war, US troops they're going over to Europe, they're

368
00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 1: waiting for battles, and they're playing soccer with English and

369
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: French soldiers. Then they come back to the US and

370
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: they're super interested in the sport, so they start clubs

371
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 1: and they start local teams. The war also led to

372
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,480
Speaker 1: the growth of women's soccer in the US, as women

373
00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: took up the men's factory jobs back in the States

374
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: during the war. They also took up their old recreational activity.

375
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: They formed soccer teams and would also play fundraising matches

376
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 1: for hospitals and soldiers.

377
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,920
Speaker 2: Soccer in the twenties in the US was kind of booming.

378
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 2: The American Soccer League was a really popular league. English

379
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 2: players could make twice as much playing in the US,

380
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,399
Speaker 2: so they would come over here. And the US was

381
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 2: invited to play in the very first World Cup in

382
00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: Uruguay in nineteen thirty and we came in third. So

383
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 2: there was a moment where it looked like soccer might

384
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 2: be able to hold its own and then great Depression

385
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,399
Speaker 2: hits and the money dried up. A lot of the

386
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 2: companies that sponsored teams couldn't afford them anymore, and the

387
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 2: country as a whole was less interested in the immigrant game.

388
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: The depression hit, there was less money to go around

389
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: for sports in general, and when the money sort of

390
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: started to become available again, it didn't really go to soccer.

391
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 1: It just wasn't seen as a priority, in part because

392
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,159
Speaker 1: despite having this long history here in the US, it

393
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: just could never shake this whole foreign association.

394
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:04,560
Speaker 2: Soccer always was tied to immigrants and lower socioeconomic immigrants,

395
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 2: the ones coming to work in the mills, the ones

396
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: coming to cut lumber, the ones coming to cut stone

397
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 2: and be domestic workers, and so it was easy to

398
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 2: kind of marginalize it.

399
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's kind of crazy. This is a country

400
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: that's supposed to be a nation of immigrants. I mean,

401
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: every sport was an is full of immigrants.

402
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 2: We talked about soccer is an immigrant sport. But Babe

403
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: Ruth and Lou Gerrig who were legendary New York Yankees,

404
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 2: both grew up speaking German. Joe DiMaggio was I think

405
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: the eighth of nine kids. Italian was his first language.

406
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 2: And so they came from the same place as soccer players.

407
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 2: But they got integrated and assimilated and soccer players didn't.

408
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: They were all imported here. But you know that saying

409
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: American is apple pie, Well it turns out apple pie

410
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: is actually English. My point is the US has always

411
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,480
Speaker 1: been a nation of immigrants. But apparently some things get

412
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: assimilated and labeled American, like baseball and pie, and some

413
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: things like soccer just don't. So apparently soccer has a

414
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: much longer history in the US than I ever realized.

415
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 1: But it's interesting just how much that early history of

416
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: soccer rhymes with the present. This is a game that's

417
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,200
Speaker 1: still played in the park by immigrants after long days

418
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: of work. And it's crazy that one hundred and fifty

419
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: years later, soccer is still viewed by so many as

420
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: an immigrant sport, despite the fact that one of the

421
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 1: first soccer games ever played in this hemisphere was in

422
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: the United States. But for me, the fact that it

423
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: is an immigrant sport is what I love about it.

424
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: Every time that the World Cup comes around, no matter

425
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: how many generations someone's been in the United States, you

426
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: break out the flag of your team and you root

427
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: for your roots. As I was wrapping up my conversation

428
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: with Tom and Kirk, I asked them what they wish

429
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: more people knew about this beautiful game here in this country.

430
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 2: There is a long history. There were over a century

431
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 2: of immigrants like you who have come here and woven

432
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: their story, woven their version of the game, their passion

433
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 2: for it into the larger American game. If you are

434
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 2: here and love the game, you're not weird, you're not

435
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:38,479
Speaker 2: an outsider, you're not a marginalized person. It's actually been

436
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: a pretty fundamental part of who we are as a

437
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 2: country for a long time.

438
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 3: It's an American game.

439
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 2: It is an American game. The Brazilians don't like hearing that, though.

440
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: Are they the only ones? I don't like you? Nobody

441
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: likes that. Tom McCabe and Kirk Rudell at the host

442
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: of the podcast An American Game. Check it out for

443
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 1: more deep dives into US soccer history. This was American Football.

444
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: I'll see you next week. American Football is produced by

445
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: Futuro Studios in collaboration with Iheart'smike Ultura podcast network. I'm

446
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 1: your host Fernanda Chavarri. This episode was produced by Marlon

447
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: Bishop and Levi Sharp, fact checking by Roxanna Guire, mixing

448
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: by Brandon Grugel. At Multitude Productions, Rebecca Ibarra is our

449
00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: senior editor. Victoria Strada is our production manager. Our executive

450
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: producers are Marlon Bishop and Maria Garcia at Futuro Studios.

451
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: Executive producers at iHeart are Leo Gomez and Arlen Santana.

452
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: Futura Media was founded by Maria Inojosa. You can listen

453
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,720
Speaker 1: to more episodes on the iHeart app, Apple podcast or

454
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your shows. And if you liked

455
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 1: this episode, please don't forget to rate and review it,

456
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: share it with your friends. It really helps people find us.

457
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Bye,