1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 3: And we're back with part three in our series called 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 3: the Sunken Lands, about places on Earth that were relatively 6 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 3: recently solid land but are now covered by the waters. 7 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 3: In the previous two parts of this series, we discussed myths, legends, 8 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 3: and obsolete theories of sunken lands, including the most popular 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 3: drowned civilization Atlantis, an advanced island state discussed in the 10 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 3: writings of Plato, which the majority of experts on the 11 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,279 Speaker 3: original sources seem to think is best interpreted as a 12 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 3: fictional setting used to illustrate a point in Plato's writings, 13 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 3: rather than a reference to a real place that actually existed. 14 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 3: But of course that does not stop the many Atlantis 15 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 3: hunters of the Internet. 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: Right, and it doesn't stop the human imagination which has 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,960 Speaker 2: gone wild with the concept, as we discussed in many 18 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: responsible ways and occasionally irresponsible with as well. 19 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 3: Right. So, we also talked about the very real sunken 20 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 3: land mass now known as dogger Land, which was a 21 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 3: vast plane connecting Great Britain to mainland Europe during and 22 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 3: for several thousand years following the Last Ice Age. Doggerland 23 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 3: is a fascinating mystery that archaeologists and other scientists are 24 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 3: learning more about all the time. But one of the 25 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 3: most intriguing things that we've learned is that this drowned 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 3: world was not only inhabited by humans for the few 27 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 3: thousand years after it began warming at the beginning of 28 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: the Holocene. It was something many experts have described it 29 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 3: as something of a paradise, rich with resources and possibly 30 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 3: one of the most densely populated places in Middle Stone 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 3: Age Europe. But of course it was eventually smothered underneath 32 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 3: rising seas and also battered by a colossal tsunami from 33 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 3: an underwater landslide around sixty two hundred BCE. After that, 34 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 3: we talked about cases of alleged vanishing islands in the Pacific, 35 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 3: including reasons for thinking that some of these accounts are genuine. 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 3: One example that you brought up rob is the island 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 3: of Tao Nimanu, a former island described in the oral 38 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 3: traditions of some of the Solomon Islanders, which allegedly sank 39 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 3: beneath the waves in a rapid seismic event, so that 40 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 3: this happened suddenly and some people barely escaped in canoes. 41 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 3: And according to the sources we were looking at last time, 42 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: it is thought that this probably did actually happen. 43 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, that seems to be the consensus. 44 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 3: Though there are of course many other examples of alleged 45 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: vanishing islands, being more likely just cases of mistaken identification. 46 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 3: In the first instance, probably we discussed reasons for possibly 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: mistakings thing for an island, maybe visual illusions like Fata Morgana, 48 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:07,359 Speaker 3: or being mistaken about where you are when you see 49 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 3: an actual island, or mistaking patches of things floating in 50 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 3: the water for land. One example we talked about was seaweed, 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 3: another was volcanic pummice rafts, and then everybody's favorite, the 52 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 3: possibility that somebody could mistake white oily scum left over 53 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 3: after seasonal worm sex as some indication of a land mass. 54 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: It's absolutely in the mix. 55 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 3: Now I wanted to talk about another example of a 56 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: quite real sunken land that we have tons of evidence for. 57 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: Many people were probably thinking about it when we were 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 3: talking about dogger Land, because this is perhaps at least 59 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: to north Americans the even more famous sunken Land bridge 60 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 3: between two continental masses, and that would be the submerged 61 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 3: plains of Beringia. This refers to an area of the 62 00:03:55,720 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: globe between northwestern North America, including Alaska and north west 63 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: Canada on one side, and northeastern Russia on the other. 64 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: And it is now thought that during the Late Pleistocene, 65 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 3: so the Last Ice Age, huge expanses of what are 66 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,919 Speaker 3: now the Bearing Sea, the Bearing Straight and the Chuckchi 67 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: Sea were lands exposed by dropping sea levels. So the 68 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 3: geological story of Beringia has some things in common with 69 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: the story of Doggerland, which we talked about previously. The 70 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 3: lower sea levels of the Pleistocene were associated with massive 71 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 3: glacier formation. During the last glacial maximum, roughly twenty thousand 72 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 3: years ago, about twenty five percent of the Earth's land 73 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 3: surface and about eight percent of its total surface was 74 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 3: covered in ice, and global sea level was like four 75 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 3: hundred feet lower than it is today. It's hard to 76 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 3: imagine the amount of ice unless maybe you have been 77 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: to Antarctica or something. Yeah, And at that time, much 78 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 3: of North America, basically almost all of the current area 79 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 3: of Canada, especially east of the rocky mountains, but reaching 80 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,279 Speaker 3: as far south as Ohio and Indiana in the United States. 81 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 3: All of that was covered in an ice formation known 82 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 3: as the Laurentide ice Sheet, which at its greatest extent 83 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 3: was more than thirteen million square kilometers and at its thickest, 84 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 3: probably near the middle, may have been up to three 85 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 3: thousand meters tall, which is almost two miles high of ice. 86 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 3: It's kind of hard to imagine. Again, and during this 87 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 3: time of lower sea levels, it has long been thought 88 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 3: that the much of the exposed land of Beringia probably 89 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 3: was some kind of step tundra environment, a sort of cold, 90 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 3: arid grassland. But at the end of the Pleistocene, roughly 91 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 3: ten to twelve thousand years ago, the earth began to warm, 92 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 3: ice melted, and sea levels rose. And these were the trends, 93 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 3: of course that eventually covered doggerland and water, and the 94 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 3: same happened to the exposed lands of Beringia. Now there 95 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: is no land bridge connecting North America to Asia, but 96 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 3: at the time there was, it served as an important 97 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: corridor of exchange between the continents, with evidence showing that plants, animals, 98 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 3: and people spread through and across it. Now a lot 99 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 3: of people probably know that the Beringia land Bridge plays 100 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 3: a role in several of the current competing major theories 101 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: of how people came to occupy the Americas, though there 102 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 3: are of course competing explanations even within that space. For example, 103 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: the question of whether the first people to come to 104 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 3: North America traveled by land and found a way south 105 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 3: through an ice free inland corridor, and if they did 106 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: that at what time, or whether those people migrated along 107 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: the coastline of Beringia mostly traveling by boat, surviving along 108 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 3: the way with the help of kelp forests and other 109 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 3: coastal resources. So there are still lots of open questions 110 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 3: in that debate. 111 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 2: But we know this was the corridor for the exchange 112 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 2: of many different species, and we've discussed some examples of 113 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 2: this on the show before, ranging from you know, of course, 114 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: human beings, to also things like species of camel. 115 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,679 Speaker 3: And other things that I didn't even think about until 116 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: I was reading for this episode, like the gray Wolf, 117 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 3: the exchange of the wolf. Yeah, Now, an interesting thing 118 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 3: I was thinking about was a similarity with dogger Land. 119 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 3: As we mentioned with dogger Land, the phrase land bridge 120 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: can potentially be deceptive. On one hand, it does sort 121 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 3: of accurately describe what happens when sea levels drop and 122 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: a ground corridor is established between two land masses that 123 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 3: used to be and or would later be separated by water. 124 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: On the other hand, the term bridge kind of creates 125 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 3: the impression of a transitional space that one merely crosses 126 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 3: to get from one's to the other. Like you don't 127 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 3: build a house in the middle of a bridge. Well, 128 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: I guess you might if it's one of those bridges 129 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 3: with all buildings on it in Italy or France or wherever. 130 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 3: But but you know what I mean, most of the time, 131 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: you don't set up camp in the middle of a bridge. 132 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think this is this is 133 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: this is a concept that always kind of comes to 134 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: mind whenever I'm reading about land bridges. On some level, 135 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 2: you're imagining it as a situation where like the wolves 136 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 2: and the camels are like, hey, guys, there's a temporary 137 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: passage between these two land masses. Let's all go get 138 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: at it, and you know, everybody rushes to get from 139 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 2: one side to the other, and then the land bridge 140 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 2: goes away. 141 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 3: Right, So that can be kind of deceptive. In the 142 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 3: case of dogger Land, we know that not only was 143 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,359 Speaker 3: the now flooded land inhabited by Neanderthals and later Mesolithic 144 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 3: Homo sapiens during its brief warm period, for the few 145 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 3: thousand years between the end of the Pleistocene and the 146 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 3: time it was under the water, it was probably one 147 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 3: of the most resource abundant places in Europe, and as 148 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 3: I said Earl, it may have been one of the 149 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 3: most densely populated as well. So with that in mind, 150 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: to what extent could we also think of Beringia more 151 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 3: as a destination in itself, a place to be, rather 152 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 3: than just a way to get somewhere. Well, In fact, 153 00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 3: we know that it was a habitat environment for many 154 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: terrestrial plants and animals, and so the real question is 155 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 3: to what extent this would be true for people as well. 156 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 3: So I came across one paper from twenty fourteen raising 157 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 3: a few lines of evidence for thinking that the large 158 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: now submerged plane in the middle of the Bearing Land 159 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: Bridge was actually a relatively habitable refuge for plants, animals, 160 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 3: and people during the last glacial maximum, and may have 161 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,719 Speaker 3: been home to an isolated population of Native American ancestors 162 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 3: for thousands of years. So the paper is called out 163 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 3: of Beringia question Mark, published in the journal Science in 164 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: twenty fourteen by Hafak, Elias and O'Rourke, and one of 165 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,080 Speaker 3: the core pieces of evidence here is a sampling of 166 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 3: mitochondrial DNA from more than six hundred Native American people 167 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 3: in the present, most of whom shared unique mitochondrial DNA 168 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 3: mutations not shared by their closest relatives in Asia, indicating 169 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: that most likely they can trace their ancestry back to 170 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 3: a group of people that was living isolated from people 171 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 3: in the rest of Asia for thousands of years, perhaps 172 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 3: ten thousand years or so, before spreading across the continents 173 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: of North and South America. And if this is in 174 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 3: fact the case, where would this population of people be living, 175 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: perhaps in a region of Beringia that supported long term settlement. 176 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 3: Now you might think, but wait a minute, it wasn't 177 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 3: Beringia too cold and arid and free of resources. Not 178 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: necessarily palaeoecological evidence is showing that parts of central Beringia 179 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 3: may have actually been more rich and plant and animal 180 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 3: resources that would potentially support continued human habitation. And this 181 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 3: evidence includes things cited by these authors like sediment cores 182 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 3: that you would take from the bottom of the bering Sea. 183 00:11:13,880 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 3: So you like core out an area of the sediment 184 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 3: strata there and see what's in it. And it turns 185 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 3: out these sediment samples contain remnants of pollen and other 186 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 3: plant matter and insects that indicate that while outer regions 187 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,319 Speaker 3: of Beringia may have been more inhospitable and arid, very 188 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 3: like dry cold step lands, the central lowlands of Beringia 189 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: may very well have had plenty of animal populations for 190 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: hunting and especially important woody plants which could have been 191 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: used as fuel for fires. And as we know, wood 192 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: is a big deal there there was not a whole 193 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 3: lot of wood available in the Arctic at the time 194 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 3: due to the extent the extent of the glaciers, and 195 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 3: fuel for fire can make the difference between a place 196 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 3: being able to sustain human life or not. 197 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: So already we're painting an entirely different picture of a 198 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: quote unquote land bridge than I think a lot of 199 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: us might have had in our head. 200 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 3: Right so to quote lead author John Hoffecker, who is 201 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: a professor at the University of Colorado Boulder, speaking to 202 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 3: Live Science, he said, quote the central part of Beringia 203 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: was probably the mildest, most comfortable place to live at 204 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 3: high latitudes during the last glacial maximum. It is the 205 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 3: most logical place for a group of people to hunker down, 206 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: and the term used for this area is a glacial refugium, 207 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 3: a place where organisms can survive despite hostile conditions in 208 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 3: the surrounding areas. So this might have been a sort 209 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 3: of warmer, milder, wetter area in the middle of very cold, dry, 210 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:56,839 Speaker 3: or glaciated areas that would be able to maintain all 211 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 3: of this diversity of species like shrub tree that you 212 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: could burn for wood, and animals that could sustain human hunting, 213 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: and possibly people living there for thousands of years. So 214 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 3: the idea of many millennia of people living isolated in 215 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 3: this refugium is sometimes referred to as the Bringian stand 216 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 3: still hypothesis. And though it's not meant to I feel 217 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 3: like this is another one where the word choice brings 218 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 3: some of the wrong connotations, because stand still kind of 219 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 3: like bridge it to me, at least, it implies a 220 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 3: connotation that like, these people would have been trying to 221 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 3: get somewhere and then they were stalled or delayed, rather 222 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: than this is simply where and how people were living 223 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 3: their lives just like anywhere else on earth. 224 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 2: Yeah again, because you're talking about thousands of years here, 225 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: You're not talking about again, this brief opportunity to move 226 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 2: from point A to point B. It is instead the 227 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 2: emergence of a point C. At least, I feel like 228 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: the historical perspective we have often leads to misconceptions like this, 229 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,840 Speaker 2: Like when you look back through history, we know or 230 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: simply have an idea, right or wrong, of what happened 231 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 2: before and after a period of time. And with that 232 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 2: historical perspective, I think we often have a hard time 233 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: understanding that people within that period probably did not think 234 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 2: of themselves as transitional between two things, but were trying 235 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 2: to live their lives like anyone else. And you know, 236 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 2: I was having the same pattern of thoughts about Doggerland, 237 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 2: like we now know that it was really only this 238 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: lush buffet of a world for a few thousand years 239 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: in Doggerland, But to the people living there it was 240 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 2: it was probably just home, right, Yeah, I mean to 241 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: your point, like this was to them, to them, this 242 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 2: was the world. You know. They not to discount the 243 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: possibility that they had some oral traditions or so forth 244 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: of the places they came from or the world before. 245 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 2: But you know it'skew. You know, hindsight is twenty twenty 246 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: and that certainly applies to our understanding of history. 247 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 3: I guess the other way of looking at it is 248 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: that on a on a long enough timescale, all people 249 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: living in all places at all times are living in 250 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 3: transitional points. 251 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: Yes, that's interesting to think about because it kind of 252 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 2: comes back to what we discussed in previous episodes about 253 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: golden ages, lost golden ages, the thing that we're trying 254 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 2: to reclaim or trying to find again. You know, that 255 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 2: also kind of loses side of the fact that life 256 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: is continually a state of change and there it's always 257 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 2: in a state of transition, and you know, it reminds me. 258 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: I forget what talk this was, but there was a 259 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: talk that Terrence McKenna gave where he used the line 260 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 2: and if something needs to be done, you will find 261 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: yourself doing it, which I think I forget the exact 262 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: context of it, but you know, it kind of speaks 263 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 2: to to how human beings have survived and grown and 264 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: expanded so much over the course of their existence. They 265 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 2: have expanded into new areas, they have left areas, they 266 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 2: have changed, they have rolled with the punches of transition. 267 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 2: But at the same time, you know, created these stories 268 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: and looked back longingly at supposed better times, whether or 269 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 2: not they were actually better. 270 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 3: That's a good point. But to come back to the 271 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 3: Barringian standstill hypothesis, it is important to remember that this 272 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 3: is just a hypothesis. Like it would need more direct 273 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 3: evidence in its favor, such as especially archaeological discoveries, which 274 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 3: had not been found at the time this article was published, 275 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 3: and I looked around and couldn't find any evidence of 276 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 3: archaeological discoveries backing it up since then, and critics of 277 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 3: this hypothesis argue that not only do we not have 278 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 3: archaeological evidence, we probably should expect to have found some 279 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 3: by now, since not all all of this territory is underwater, 280 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 3: though a lot of it is. But either way so 281 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 3: we don't know. This is an idea, it may or 282 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: may not be correct. But if this idea is correct, 283 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 3: once the surrounding glaciers began to melt, the ideas that 284 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 3: the Beringian people probably expanded their territory and then moved 285 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 3: on down the coastline and into the interior of the 286 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 3: North American continent and spread on from there. But the 287 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 3: ultimate point about the land being that much like Doggerland, 288 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 3: this is an area that was land when the glaciers 289 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 3: were at their peak, when the water was locked in 290 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 3: the ice, and so there were these vast stretches of 291 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 3: plains that are now buried beneath the sea. And there's 292 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 3: probably a lot more that we could know about them 293 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 3: more easily if it were not underneath the sea, and 294 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 3: we could, you know, just go around and do digs 295 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 3: and look for palaeontological remains, you know, animal remains, plant remains, 296 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 3: and see if we could find human tools and remains 297 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 3: what people were doing in these places. But it's again 298 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: more challenging because of the water covering things. 299 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 2: Now, yeah, well that's fascinating Again. That kind of essentially 300 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: kind of turns over the loose idea that I had 301 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 2: in my head of land bridges. So this might be 302 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 2: an interesting general topic to come back to in the future. Now, 303 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: in all this talk of sunken lands and lost islands 304 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: in particular that we got into in the last episode, 305 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 2: I thought it might be fun to explore something that 306 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: lines up with this concept in a unique way and 307 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:47,120 Speaker 2: that is the topic of atolls or atolls you apparently 308 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 2: can say it both ways, and hey, I might just 309 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: say it both ways. This we proceed here. So these 310 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 2: are essentially coral reefs in circling a lagoon. They're not 311 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: always circular, but there are some stunning examples of circular atolls. 312 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 2: And you've you've probably seen pictures of these. There are 313 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 2: numerous examples of them. The big Blue Hole Belize is 314 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 2: one that is commonly mentioned and commonly photographed. But it's like, yeah, 315 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 2: you have this circular reef islands and then in the 316 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: middle more water. So it looks like, you know, this 317 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 2: looks like something is missing, right, And this has certainly 318 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,959 Speaker 2: invited curiosity over the many years here as long as 319 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 2: people have been encountering them, because it raises the question 320 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 2: how did they form? This was actually a question that 321 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 2: none other than Charles Darwin considered on the voyage of 322 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 2: the Ahms Beagle during the eighteen thirties. So when I 323 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 2: was reading about that, I had to pull open his book, 324 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 2: The Voyage of the Beagle, And yeah, he gets into 325 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: this at one point and he writes about some of 326 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 2: the theories of the day that he was less convinced 327 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,120 Speaker 2: by So the first idea he brings up is that 328 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: quote coral bil building animals instinctively built up their great 329 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: circles to afford themselves protection in the inner parts. So 330 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: that would seem to imply that, yeah, you have coral 331 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 2: is like growing up from the seabed and building a 332 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: great ring so that they can have like a protected 333 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 2: area in the middle. And on this theory, he points 334 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: out that, Okay, coral don't thrive within the atl lagoon, 335 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 2: and this would be a case in which quote many 336 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: species of distinct genera and families are supposed to combine 337 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: for one end, and of such a combination not a 338 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 2: single instance can be found in the whole of nature. 339 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 3: M Okay, so the creatures forming the reef would have 340 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 3: to be all working together to protect this inner area. 341 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 3: But also he points out, like, you don't really see 342 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,320 Speaker 3: the coral doing much in the inner area. It's not 343 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 3: like they're, oh, that's the place where they keep all 344 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 3: their soft parts. They're just not really in there. 345 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. And then additionally, where else in the natural world 346 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: do we see this kind of like cross genera cooperation 347 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 2: going on. I mean, I guess you could you know, 348 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: there's some little instances here and there where you talk 349 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 2: about it, you know, prey animal communication and alerting, you know, 350 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 2: generally to the idea of predators in their myths, But 351 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 2: something a lot on the scale of this, he argues, 352 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: we don't. 353 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 3: Really see it, okay. 354 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 2: The next theory he mentions is that atolls are based 355 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,440 Speaker 2: on submarine craters, and he points out that this doesn't 356 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: hold up when you look at all the examples in 357 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 2: the world that were known at the time. It just 358 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: simply doesn't account for everything. Another idea that he explores 359 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 2: is the idea that coral edges were exposed to the 360 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: outer sea and along these edges grew up more quickly. 361 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: But as with theory one, the question remains, what did 362 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 2: they grow on? He stresses that rebuilding corals cannot live 363 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,440 Speaker 2: at great depth, and therefore, like what would grow up 364 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 2: then to be doesn't make sense that they would they 365 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 2: would start deep down and then grow up because we 366 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: know that these corals that live near the surface don't 367 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 2: in the deep water, right. 368 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 3: So it's only in the shallow. Living corals only live 369 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 3: in these areas that are already shallow for some reason, 370 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 3: Like it's like it's almost an island right right. 371 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 2: And it's worth noting that there are deep water corals, 372 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: and they do produce deep sea reefs, but it's structurally different, apparently. 373 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: So he writes at fair length about all of this 374 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 2: and about what he thinks is happening. And here's a 375 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 2: section that more or less encapsulates it. Quote, as the 376 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 2: barrier reef slowly sinks down, the corals will go on 377 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 2: vigorously growing upwards. But as the island sinks, this would 378 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: be the island around which the reef is formed. He continues, 379 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: The water will gain inch by inch on the shore, 380 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: the separate mountains first forming separate islands within one great reef, 381 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: and finally the last and highest pinnacle disappearing. The instant 382 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: this takes place, a perfect atoll is formed. I have said, 383 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: removed the high land from within the an encircling barrier reef, 384 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 2: and an atoll is left. And the land has been removed. 385 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 2: We can now perceive how it comes that atolls, having 386 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 2: sprung from encircling barrier reefs, resemble them in general size form, 387 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 2: in the manner in which they are coupled together, and 388 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: in their arrangement in single or double lines. For they 389 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 2: may be called rude outlined charts of the sunken islands 390 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: over which they stand. 391 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 3: M okay. So the idea there would be a volcanic 392 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 3: island that forms, it gradually begins to sink, but as 393 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 3: it is sinking, the barrier reef is built up to 394 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,360 Speaker 3: encircle it in the shallow water around it, and that 395 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: height comes up as the central island just continues to 396 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 3: go down. So an atoll, to come back to the 397 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: idea of sort of transitional landforms, is somewhere in between 398 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 3: a volcanic island and eventually fully sunken island. 399 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 2: Right. And in this case, yeah, the volcanic island is 400 00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 2: no longer active and it is falling away. Meanwhile the 401 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 2: coral is alive and it's building up. 402 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 3: Hm. That makes sense, was he right? 403 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting so that this is generally referred to 404 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 2: as the subsistence model, and it does. It seems like 405 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 2: it's very much in the mix today. You certainly see 406 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 2: it sided all over the place, and it pops up 407 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,439 Speaker 2: in textbooks and so forth. But not everyone loves it. 408 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 2: And there are some very vocal experts who who say 409 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: this is really this really doesn't explain everything, and we 410 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 2: ultimately need to look maybe more at another theory, or 411 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: ultimately look at sort of a host of theories, and 412 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: that maybe we should get away from the idea that 413 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: one theory in general is going to explain every formation 414 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: like this that we find in the world's oceans. There's 415 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 2: another key formation theory called the antecedent Karst model, and 416 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 2: this one proposes that dropping sea levels that this has 417 00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: to do with like cyclical changes sea level over time. 418 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 2: It proposes that dropping sea levels expose the top of 419 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: a flat topped bank of carbonate rocks. And then while 420 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: this is exposed again for you know, like with our 421 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,119 Speaker 2: land Bridge model, not for just a couple of days, 422 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 2: but for an extended period of time, rain water steadily 423 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 2: pools in the flat topped bank and dissolves some of 424 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 2: the carbonate, forming a depression. Eventually, sea levels rise again 425 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 2: and fresh coral builds up top this raised circular edge. 426 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,520 Speaker 2: Again roughly speaking, it doesn't have to be anything remotely 427 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: resembling a perfect circle, but then the coral builds up 428 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 2: on this raised circular edge of the depression. This forms 429 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 2: the atoll according to this theory. So again it has 430 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 2: a lot to do with cyclical changes in sea level. 431 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: Oh okay, so much. Kind of like how a cave 432 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 3: is formed in limestone by like rain water coming down 433 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 3: or you know, water rushing through and dissolving some of 434 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 3: the sediment rock and eventually forming a cave. Here, the 435 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 3: idea would be that in the times, when a seamount 436 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 3: or island top is exposed by lowering sea levels, the 437 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,199 Speaker 3: rainwater comes down and sort of it dissolves it in 438 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 3: kind of the same way that rainwater dissolves a cave cavity, 439 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 3: and it lowers the central area of the island. But 440 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,200 Speaker 3: of course the coral is still building up the reef 441 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 3: all around that central raised area. 442 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my understanding of this. Alexander Witz wrote a 443 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: great article about the antecedent cars model back in twenty 444 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: twenty one for Noble magazine and was then reprinted on Smithsonian, 445 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 2: where you can also find it. So I was reading 446 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 2: about that here, and the author makes several key points 447 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 2: that I wanted to draw out for this discussion. First 448 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 2: of all, the author writes that experts that generally agree 449 00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: that Darwin got it wrong with his theory, they also 450 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 2: admit that he crafted a very insightful theory for the 451 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: day given in the limited amount of data. Also, some 452 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 2: reefs may have still formed via the method that Darwin 453 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: is describing here, such as some atolls found in Tahiti. 454 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: And in any case, they often stress that we shouldn't 455 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 2: look maybe for one unifying theory for atoll formation, because 456 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: there may ultimately be a handful of explanations in the mix, 457 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,359 Speaker 2: including things like tectonic forces and wave action. 458 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: Ah, that's a good point. Yeah, there could be multiple 459 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 3: mechanisms creating similar looking formations. 460 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. The author also points out that understanding the varying 461 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 2: reasons in play also helps us to understand which atolls 462 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 2: are most at risk from climate change and rising sea levels. 463 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 2: The author writes, quote, in the absence of humans, atolls 464 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: can grow at a rate much faster than that of 465 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 2: sea level rise. But people have degraded natural atolls by 466 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: introducing pollution and waste, altering the water table, and adding 467 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 2: concrete and asphalt that smothers the underlying coral. The Maldives 468 00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 2: in the Indian Ocean face a future of flooding, water contamination, 469 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 2: and erosion that threaten its tourism and fishery industries. The Maldives, 470 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: by the way, according to the article may have formed 471 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: more due to the action of waves wave based erosion 472 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 2: than by the clarsification theory was that I was talking 473 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,159 Speaker 2: about earlier, at least according to one study. But to 474 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: come back to just the topic of sunken lands and 475 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 2: sunken islands in general, yeah, I think atolls fit into 476 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: the concept. Though. The added discussion and or disagreement concerns 477 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 2: exactly how central exposed land masses may have formed and 478 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: or fallen away, and you know, to what extent it 479 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 2: involves things essentially, you know, rising from the ocean or 480 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 2: then sinking back below the depths. Because both Darwin and 481 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: the carciification theories entail a central exposed land mass or 482 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 2: island around which the coral builds. 483 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 3: I mean, part of me would wonder if you could 484 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 3: just to some extent tell the difference between these by 485 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 3: looking at the kind of rock, because in Darwin's theory, 486 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 3: for example, if the idea is that the island is 487 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 3: volcanic in origin, wouldn't you be mainly looking at volcanic 488 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: rock leftover in the middle, Whereas if it's a kars 489 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 3: process you would be looking at sedimentary rock in the middle. 490 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,280 Speaker 3: Am I wrong about that? 491 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 2: The article I said, it does go into more detail 492 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 2: about this, and yeah, it's my understanding that a lot 493 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 2: of what we know now it does hinge upon geologic 494 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 2: evidence that we just that Darwin wasn't exposed to and 495 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 2: did not have back in the day, And so we 496 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: do know a lot more about what sorts of rocks 497 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: are underlying any given land mass that we're discussing. 498 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,720 Speaker 3: So I guess if the karsification explanation has come more 499 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 3: into favor, that would suggest that more often the coral 500 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 3: atoll is found around a like a limestone formation rather 501 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 3: than a volcanic rock formation. 502 00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: That would seem to be the case. But again, based 503 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: on what I was reading, it sounds like it is 504 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: maybe a suite of the theories that we might turn 505 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: to as opposed to again one unifying theory for all 506 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: of these atolls. Now, as we touched on during the 507 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: first episode, I wanted to come back around to this 508 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 2: because water levels don't only rise due to geologic events 509 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 2: and storms and global warming. It also occurs when humans 510 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: build dams to form artificial lakes. Well, I mean, I 511 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: guess you could maybe make an argument for beavers as well, 512 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 2: but especially humans. That's true, humans can pour concrete. But 513 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:50,000 Speaker 2: you know this allows humans to otherwise manipulate rivers and lakes, 514 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: and it's worth stressing that in addition to hydroelectricity. And 515 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 2: you'll know this if you've ever visited a dam and 516 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 2: gone through like a you know the educational portion of 517 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 2: the dam in addition to producing electricity. Another major reason 518 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: for dams is to often detame rivers that periodically endanger 519 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,239 Speaker 2: neighboring and low lying areas. But in doing so, in 520 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: creating lakes, we of course sometimes sink formerly inhabited lands, 521 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 2: both ancient and modern. And of course this has taken 522 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 2: place all over the world. There are so many examples 523 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 2: that we could turn to, but I thought I might 524 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 2: highlight some examples that stood out to me, and of 525 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: course if any others come up, we may bring them 526 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 2: up later and certainly and feel free to write in 527 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: about examples that come to your mind. But one that 528 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 2: is often mentioned is, of course the site of Abu 529 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: Simbel in Egypt. This was an ancient rock cut temple 530 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,520 Speaker 2: complex near the current Egyptian Sudanese border, and it dates 531 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: back to the thirteenth century bcee. This site was threatened 532 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 2: by Lake Nasser. This is the Aswan Dam reservoir during 533 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 2: the twentieth century, but in nineteen sixty eight it was 534 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 2: actually really located to another site, so massive relocation effort 535 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 2: to move everything to a higher elevation further away from 536 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: the water. Another famous dam, of course, is the Three 537 00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: Gorgeous Dam in China, that also entailed a great deal 538 00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 2: of relocation from the area to be flooded in terms 539 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 2: of like the lake that's going to build up, but 540 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: also the river itself. And this also included something called 541 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: White Crane Ridge. It's an archaeological site. The inscriptions here 542 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 2: date back to the Tung dynasty and provide detailed water 543 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: level records on the Yangzi River, some I think one 544 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 2: two hundred years worth of data based on what I 545 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 2: was reading. Some of the carvings were relocated, but others 546 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: remain in a special underwater museum constructed prior to the flooding. 547 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: So you apparently this is underneath the river, so you 548 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 2: apparently take an escalator down from a facility by the 549 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: river bank through some tunnels to reach the museum. WHOA 550 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 2: Another example from China that I ran across is Lions 551 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 2: City or Hieching in eastern China. It's an example of 552 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 2: an Eastern Han dynasty city that is now under the 553 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 2: waters of a man made lake. This is Thousand Island Lake. 554 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 2: This was flooded in the mid twentieth century as well, 555 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 2: when most of these projects are taking place around the world, 556 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 2: and it has apparently become a tourism destination, at least 557 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 2: for very experienced divers. I read that it's not really 558 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 2: the kind of thing that casual divers are going down for, 559 00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 2: but experienced divers have sought this out, and you can 560 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: find some images online of various sort of you know, 561 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 2: haunting underwater remnants of this place. 562 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: As a creature of East Tennessee, I grew up with 563 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 3: a lot of consciousness of the idea of lands flooded 564 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 3: by the creation of dams, specifically with TVA hydro Electric. 565 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, the Tennessee Valley Authority a right, Yeah, things like 566 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: Kentucky Lake. There are always a lot of you know these. 567 00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 2: Anytime you have a big lake like this, there's going 568 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,920 Speaker 2: to be some sort of a relocation effort that has 569 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: to take place, and I feel like inevitably you're gonna 570 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: have some things left behind beneath the water and on 571 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 2: top of what's actually underneath the water, You're gonna have 572 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,880 Speaker 2: stories about what maybe underneath the water, you know, tales 573 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: of lost towns and so forth. 574 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 3: I think I used to have dreams when I was 575 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 3: little of finding houses submerged underneath the lake. 576 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And this sort of thing has been explored 577 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 2: in media, pops up in the Coen Brothers or brother 578 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 2: Where Art thou and so forth, And I think ultimately 579 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 2: wherever you're listening to this show, you probably don't have 580 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 2: to go too far to find an example of some 581 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,200 Speaker 2: sort of an artificial lake, and there may be stories 582 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 2: about like the impact of creating that lake. 583 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 3: Of course, you kind of alluded to this earlier. But 584 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,279 Speaker 3: one of the interesting things about the flooding of these 585 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 3: river values by the creation of dams is that often 586 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,240 Speaker 3: one of the purposes of it is to prevent uncontrolled flooding. 587 00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 3: I know this is it's fundamentally changed what the Nile 588 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 3: River valley is that they put all these dams in 589 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 3: because there used to be this uncontrolled seasonal flooding of 590 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 3: the Nile that was just part of life in Egypt. 591 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 3: And now that in some ways the water level of 592 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 3: the Nile has been to some degree broad under human control. 593 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so you see this sort of thing all over. 594 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 2: I have to say, though, I wasn't familiar with this 595 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 2: example un till I started doing research here. There's perhaps 596 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,319 Speaker 2: fewer examples, few examples that are as stunning as this. 597 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: But there's a town in northern Italy, or a village 598 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: in northern Italy by the name of Kuran, and it's 599 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 2: apparently pretty famous for there a lot of images of this, 600 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,400 Speaker 2: but I wasn't familiar with it. But this is another 601 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 2: case where they had to relocate the town to a 602 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 2: higher elevation, as the original site was flooded in nineteen 603 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,600 Speaker 2: fifty so most of the city was abandoned and demoed first, 604 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: except for a lone fourteenth century church and its bell tower. 605 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,520 Speaker 2: The bell tower still sticks out of the water in 606 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 2: rather surrealistic fashion. You'll find images of it where it's 607 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 2: just like, oh, here's the mountains, there's a lake, and 608 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 2: here is a bell tower sticking out of it. I mean, 609 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 2: some of these images don't even look real. It looks 610 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 2: like some sort of obvious photoshop, but it is. These 611 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 2: are legitimate. There are other images of the lake frozen 612 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,879 Speaker 2: over and here is the bell tower emerging from the ice. 613 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:23,560 Speaker 2: Sometimes you see images where people have ventured out onto 614 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: the ice close to it in. 615 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 3: Some of the pictures. I just looked up pictures of it, 616 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 3: and in a lot of them, there seems to be 617 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 3: a color gradient on the tower as it sticks up, 618 00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,880 Speaker 3: like the stone is a little paler for most of 619 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 3: the way up, and then there will be a lower 620 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,319 Speaker 3: area where the stone is darker. And I don't know 621 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 3: if this is the reason, but I wonder if that's 622 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 3: you know, it's literally just from the water level going 623 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,360 Speaker 3: up and down, and so you can see where the 624 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 3: water has been on the on the height of the stone. 625 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that is the case. I've read that 626 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,360 Speaker 2: during the spring, when the water is at its lowest, 627 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: you can apparently see more of the ruins. But yeah, 628 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,879 Speaker 2: I encourage everyone to look up in this because it's 629 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 2: pretty impressive. And you can't have something in like this 630 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: in the world, of course without it inspiring some level 631 00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: of superstition and in fiction. And sure enough, there is 632 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 2: an Italian supernatural TV drama about this town, or at 633 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 2: least I don't know if it's about the set in 634 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 2: the town and invokes the idea of the town. It 635 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 2: is called Kuron. It's apparently I think it's on Netflix. 636 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: I don't know if that's like, if that's in the States, 637 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:28,840 Speaker 2: or if that's just in Italy or other international markets. 638 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: But c r in. If anyone out there has seen it, 639 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 2: do write in and let us know. I'm wondering how 640 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: they I mean, there's so many directions you can go in. 641 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 2: You're talking about an abandoned underwater church, like that's perfect. 642 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 3: Well, not to spoil the fun, but to be clear, 643 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 3: I think they removed the church. It's just the tower 644 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 3: that's there, right, or at least in the pictures I've seen. 645 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 2: I'm uncertain about that. There may be some ruins down there. 646 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 2: But then again, if you're making a supernatural drama TV show, 647 00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 2: why not have the church down there? You can have 648 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 2: whatever you like down there. Merphult going to church, ghosts, raiths, 649 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,319 Speaker 2: I don't know. There's so many directions. 650 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 3: Oh, it's like the pious undead that we talked about. 651 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 3: Was it last year or the year before? All the 652 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 3: revenants are going to church? 653 00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and there this is like a rich folkloric 654 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,399 Speaker 2: region of Europe too that we're talking about. So there's 655 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 2: so many ideas you could pull in, you know, ideas 656 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 2: that predate the creation of man made lakes for sure. 657 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: I also want to point out worth looking up or 658 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 2: images of the Quran coat of arms because I'm not 659 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:36,960 Speaker 2: I'm not sure on the exact history of this, like 660 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 2: when they changed it or adapted it, but the coat 661 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 2: of arms depicts the tower, the bell tower, emerging from 662 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 2: the water. Mm hm, so pretty cool. If you have 663 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: visited this location, right in and let us know, because 664 00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,399 Speaker 2: I'd love to hear your first person account of this 665 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 2: haunting bell tower. All right, we're going to gohead and 666 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 2: leave it there, but yeah, go ahead and write in 667 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 2: if you have any thoughts on anything we've discussed so 668 00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: far in this series. Just a reminder that Stuff to 669 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science podcast, with core 670 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 2: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, listener mail on Mondays, usually 671 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 2: in an artifact or monster fact episode on Wednesdays, and 672 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 2: on Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to just 673 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema. If 674 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,359 Speaker 2: you use social media, you can follow us at any 675 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 2: of your favorite social media sites, I think, unless we're 676 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 2: not on that site, but we're on a few of them, 677 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 2: so you know, to have a look around. Maybe you 678 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 2: can find us. If you're on Instagram, you can find 679 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 2: us at STBYM podcast. 680 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 3: To follow us on MySpace. Huge thanks as always to 681 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 3: our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If you would like 682 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 3: to get in touch with us with feedback on this 683 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 3: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 684 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 3: or just to say hello, you can email us at 685 00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 3: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 686 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 687 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 688 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.