WEBVTT - Melinda French Gates Turns the Page

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Emily Chang, and this is the podcast version of

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<v Speaker 1>The Circuit, my show on Bloomberg Originals. Today we're taking

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<v Speaker 1>you to Seattle, Washington to meet Melinda French Gates. She's

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<v Speaker 1>the famed billionaire, philanthropist, investor, and a champion for gender equality, education, health,

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<v Speaker 1>and human rights around the globe. Melinda is one of

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<v Speaker 1>the world's most powerful women and became a driving force

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<v Speaker 1>of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, but she was

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<v Speaker 1>often publicly defined by her marriage to the man behind

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<v Speaker 1>the Microsoft Empire. Now she's stepping into a new spotlight

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<v Speaker 1>that's unapologetically her own. I wanted to get a sense

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<v Speaker 1>of the Melinda behind the headlines, the Melinda before the Gates,

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<v Speaker 1>and travel with her to a special place in Seattle

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<v Speaker 1>where it all began, when she was just Melinda French

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<v Speaker 1>starting a new job at this little company called Microsoft.

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<v Speaker 1>We've met a few times over the years, when you

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<v Speaker 1>were married to Bill and the foundation was humming. We

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<v Speaker 1>spoke during the pandemic, when now that I read your book,

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<v Speaker 1>you are hiding this separation, and now that you've written

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<v Speaker 1>your memoir, I feel like the world knows you as

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<v Speaker 1>Melinda Gates, but who is Melinda French Gates.

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<v Speaker 2>I am the person that I write about in the book.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I have a lot of friends in Seattle,

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<v Speaker 2>male and female. I like to do puzzles. I'm intense

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<v Speaker 2>at times. I like to have a lot of fun too.

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<v Speaker 2>I love to travel, and probably the best kind of

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<v Speaker 2>trip is where I'm learning something and or I'm getting

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<v Speaker 2>to exercise as part of the trip, you know, hiking

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<v Speaker 2>or biking or jogging, all of those things.

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<v Speaker 1>In the book you talk about you always knew you

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to be a working mom, and you know, as

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<v Speaker 1>we talked about Unlash, I had this power career, big

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<v Speaker 1>tech and risen up in management. What was the transition

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<v Speaker 1>like to leave work and be a mom full time

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<v Speaker 1>and let that go?

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<v Speaker 2>It was something I definitely wanted. Because I was having

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<v Speaker 2>this baby, I got pretty clamsy, so I was bed

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<v Speaker 2>ridden a little earlier than I thought. I had to

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<v Speaker 2>leave work suddenly. But I was planning to leave Microsoft,

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<v Speaker 2>and really that had a lot to do with Bill

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<v Speaker 2>was the CEO and traveling all over the world and

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<v Speaker 2>to have the family life we wanted to have. I

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<v Speaker 2>felt like I wanted to be home, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>really hard on me. So much harder than I expected.

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<v Speaker 2>I moved to a house that was very large, behind

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<v Speaker 2>a much bigger git. I have this new little baby

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<v Speaker 2>who I adore and love. But you know, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have my career anymore. I'm not around all these hard

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<v Speaker 2>charging people intellectual topics. So I had to learn over

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<v Speaker 2>time how to rebuild that for myself through my friendships,

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<v Speaker 2>and also start doing some board work so I could

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<v Speaker 2>stay engaged.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the pieces of advice in your book that

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<v Speaker 1>I love is you talk about not needing to be

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<v Speaker 1>a perfect parent, but a good enough parent. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>explain that?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I wrote about that because it's a concept I

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<v Speaker 2>didn't learn till my kids were in middle school, and

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<v Speaker 2>I wish I had learned earlier. I'd always been this perfectionist,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's not always a good thing, right, especially as

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<v Speaker 2>you're a mom. And so when I finally learned this

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<v Speaker 2>concept that children need one good enough parent and they're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be okay, I could let my guard down,

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<v Speaker 2>because there is no such thing as a perfect parent, right.

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<v Speaker 2>But I had some mythical perfect mom in my head.

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<v Speaker 2>And once I thought about and read the concept of

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<v Speaker 2>the perfect parent, someone explained it to me. I thought, why,

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<v Speaker 2>I am certainly a good enough parent these kids, They're

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<v Speaker 2>going to be okay.

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<v Speaker 1>Warren Buffett pulled you back to work when he gave

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<v Speaker 1>thirty billion dollars to the Bill and the lind Of

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<v Speaker 1>Gates Foundation, which you ran together for twenty five years.

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<v Speaker 1>What was it that made you say I need to

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<v Speaker 1>let this go and step back from that.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, leaving the Foundation was something that weighed very heavily

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<v Speaker 2>on me. I wanted to be very thoughtful if I left,

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<v Speaker 2>but it became just clear to me that the US

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<v Speaker 2>was changing very rapidly before our eyes, that women's rights

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<v Speaker 2>were being rolled back, and that I had a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of work ahead of me that I wanted to do

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<v Speaker 2>on that and to use my voice behind. And I

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<v Speaker 2>also felt like the Foundation was in a really good place.

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<v Speaker 2>It has a board now. Mark Susman's been in the

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<v Speaker 2>CEO role. He's fantastic. So I felt like it was

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<v Speaker 2>a time I could leave to now emphasize and focus

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<v Speaker 2>more on the US. I'm doing both domestic and global

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<v Speaker 2>work at Pivotal Ventures on Behalf of Women, but I'm

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<v Speaker 2>doing more domestic work given the times we're in.

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<v Speaker 1>Pivotal is now the center of all your work. You're

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<v Speaker 1>making all of these bets, these gifts, doing all this

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<v Speaker 1>research on your own. What are you saying that you

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<v Speaker 1>can do differently given your social capital and your economic power.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's much the same as what I did at

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<v Speaker 2>the Foundation. But I can use my voice completely and

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<v Speaker 2>fully in whatever way I want and use my resources.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have to go to a board, I don't

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<v Speaker 2>have to go to a partner to decide right, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm using every tool in my toolbox, whether that's advocacy,

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<v Speaker 2>whether that's philanthropy, whether that's investments, because I think all

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<v Speaker 2>of those things are needed if we're going to really

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<v Speaker 2>advance women to their rightful place in society.

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<v Speaker 1>President Trump pulled the US out of the World Health Organization,

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<v Speaker 1>cutting back on scientific research, medical research, foreign aid. How

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<v Speaker 1>is President Trump and these actions, how is this impacting

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<v Speaker 1>the philanthropic world. I understand that there's quite a sense

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<v Speaker 1>of urgency.

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<v Speaker 2>There's an enormous sense of urgency. Just take USAID alone.

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<v Speaker 2>That is something that has been in place for a

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<v Speaker 2>long time that both Republican and Democratic presidents supported, and

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<v Speaker 2>there was a reason for it, a logical reason, which is,

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<v Speaker 2>if people can be healthy and have peace and prosper

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<v Speaker 2>where they are, they will want to stay there. And

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<v Speaker 2>so the cuts in USAID alone, sixteen point nine million

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<v Speaker 2>women will not get maternal health services. Think about what

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<v Speaker 2>that means to lose a mom in childbirth and she's

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<v Speaker 2>already got children at home. I mean, you're going to

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<v Speaker 2>devastate some of these communities. People are going hungry because

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<v Speaker 2>of those cuts. And what I know from meeting so

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<v Speaker 2>many families and so many low income countries around the

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<v Speaker 2>world is those grants made a difference in their health

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<v Speaker 2>and in their well being and in them being able

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<v Speaker 2>to pull themselves out of poverty. As Americans, is that

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<v Speaker 2>what we want? Do we want to create more crises

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<v Speaker 2>around the world or do we want peace and prosperity

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<v Speaker 2>for others so they can live where they are?

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<v Speaker 1>So, how are you changing your giving strategy as a

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<v Speaker 1>result of what you're seeing.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's no amount of philanthropy, none, that can fill

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<v Speaker 2>in for the loss from the US government. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think the thing people need to most understand is that

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<v Speaker 2>was less than one percent, far less than one percent

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<v Speaker 2>of the US government budget. So philanthropy can't fill that whole.

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<v Speaker 2>What I can do is fund others who are also

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<v Speaker 2>working in those communities to lift people up. But make

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<v Speaker 2>no mistake, the US has built infrastructure around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>the labs around the world that report diseases so we

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<v Speaker 2>know about them before they come to our own country.

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<v Speaker 2>All of that infrastructure will crumble, all of it. And

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<v Speaker 2>so to me, there's no logical sense. There's a logical

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<v Speaker 2>sense for saying, maybe there's some places where there was

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<v Speaker 2>waste or there was fat, maybe we need to cut

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<v Speaker 2>ten percent or fifteen percent. But a good manager looks

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<v Speaker 2>at that and looks at it carefully before they make

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<v Speaker 2>cuts like that.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not just science, it's potentially the Department of Education.

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<v Speaker 1>What does this mean for America?

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<v Speaker 2>We don't know yet. We haven't run this particular experiment yet.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I know is that we've had a healthy

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<v Speaker 2>and thriving democracy. We've had problems around the edges of it,

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<v Speaker 2>and definitely I'm the first one to tell you it

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<v Speaker 2>needs fine tuning. But to wipe out the Department of Education, now,

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<v Speaker 2>how is that good for students? You could decide you

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<v Speaker 2>want to do a bit more at the state level.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of what happens is at the state level,

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<v Speaker 2>but there needs to be some guidance from the top, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So why would you wipe out the whole Department of Education?

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<v Speaker 2>How does that benefit students? We need to think about

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<v Speaker 2>the end result of who's benefiting from these kinds of things,

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<v Speaker 2>and is that the chaos that we want.

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<v Speaker 1>The critics of philanthropy say it's been astonishingly ineffective at

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<v Speaker 1>solving societal problems. That giving has increased, but problems have

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<v Speaker 1>gotten worse. There's a lot of critiques actually of billionaire philanthropy.

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<v Speaker 1>What's fair and what's not well.

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<v Speaker 2>I would beg to differ on some of the philanthropy

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<v Speaker 2>we know. Millions of people are alive because of the

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<v Speaker 2>life saving vaccines that have been developed and given around

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<v Speaker 2>the world the Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization. Moms and

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<v Speaker 2>dads uds in low income countries line up to get

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<v Speaker 2>measles vaccines for their children because you know what a

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<v Speaker 2>measle's outbreak in their community means that kids die. So

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<v Speaker 2>millions of children alive because of that. The President's Emergency

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<v Speaker 2>Plan for AIDS relief, started by George W. Bush that

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<v Speaker 2>has saved millions of lives. The rate of deaths of

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<v Speaker 2>HIV have come down over the years, the number of

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<v Speaker 2>children dying of malaria has come down. So has all

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<v Speaker 2>of philanthropy been great? No? But has some of it?

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<v Speaker 2>And can we measure some of it? You bet we can.

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<v Speaker 2>And philanthropy is only one tool in the toolbox. Philanthropy

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<v Speaker 2>can take a risk that we wouldn't want government to

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<v Speaker 2>take with our taxpayer funding, but it can prove things

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<v Speaker 2>out at scale, and then governments can come in to

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<v Speaker 2>scale that up. So it takes philanthropy, it takes civil society,

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<v Speaker 2>takes government, it takes private sector. But there are large

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<v Speaker 2>societal problems that are left behind that things like capitalism

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't solve. And as Warren Buffett says, those are the

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<v Speaker 2>hard problems left behind, and philanthropy goes and tries and

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<v Speaker 2>does their best to tackle those.

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<v Speaker 1>Speaking of measuring things, you, Bill and Warren started the

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<v Speaker 1>Giving Pledge to encourage people to give away the majority

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<v Speaker 1>of their wealth. Some people think it's inspiring, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>all taught. There's no accountability. Are you tracking it and

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<v Speaker 1>is it working?

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<v Speaker 2>We are tracking it to the extent we can. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>it's hard to know for sure if a particular philanthropist,

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<v Speaker 2>if they choose to increase their giving next year. Are

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<v Speaker 2>they necessarily going to give the giving pledge credit? Not necessarily.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I do know is that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the philanthropists have learned from one another and they'll get

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<v Speaker 2>inspired by another philanthropist and then get going. Not everybody

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<v Speaker 2>in the group, but some for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>Some good news. Women are actually coming into a lot

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<v Speaker 1>more money. There's a huge generational wealth transfer happening. More

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<v Speaker 1>women are making money at work. If women control more

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<v Speaker 1>money globally, how could that change society?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it would change. It will change society fundamentally,

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<v Speaker 2>especially if women control the money and can spend it

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<v Speaker 2>the way they want. We have good global research that

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<v Speaker 2>shows in most countries around the world, low and middle income,

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<v Speaker 2>when a woman gets an extra equivalent of a dollar

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<v Speaker 2>in her hand, she spends it on her children and

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<v Speaker 2>on her family, and she spends it on medications for

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<v Speaker 2>her children. So women make different investments versus men. I

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<v Speaker 2>also think when women control more resources, they will fund

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<v Speaker 2>other women's businesses because they'll say, oh, yes, we need

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<v Speaker 2>a new one of those, and the husband may not

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<v Speaker 2>see it, or the man may not see it just

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<v Speaker 2>because nothing's wrong. He just has a different lens on society,

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<v Speaker 2>and so to me, it's profound when women can control resources,

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<v Speaker 2>and you're seeing it more in the United States. You're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing more women in the middle class working, saving money.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, seventy seven million women in this country work,

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<v Speaker 2>and of most families that have kids in the United States,

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<v Speaker 2>sixty seven percent of them both parents work. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>reason for that. They're trying to get ahead as a family.

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<v Speaker 2>They're trying to support their kids with a good education.

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<v Speaker 2>And the truth is all over the world. When I've

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<v Speaker 2>talked to moms and dads in all kinds of countries

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<v Speaker 2>in Africa or Bangladesh or in India, they all hope

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<v Speaker 2>and dream the same thing we do for our kids,

0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.840
<v Speaker 2>which is a better future for their children.

0:12:37.520 --> 0:12:40.800
<v Speaker 1>Still, women's rights are under threat. What advice to you

0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:42.440
<v Speaker 1>giving to your own daughters right now?

0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.840
<v Speaker 2>Use your voice, use your voice, learn, learn deeply, and

0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.280
<v Speaker 2>to the extent you're ready, start using some of your

0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 2>resources on that. And I couldn't be more proud of

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.520
<v Speaker 2>both my daughters and my son for really learning about

0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the issues and even making visits on the ground.

0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.280
<v Speaker 1>What advice are you giving your son?

0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.360
<v Speaker 2>Keep going, keep doing what you're doing. He has always

0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 2>believed in women's rights. He also believes strongly in our democracy.

0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 2>And I learned from all three of my kids, but he,

0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:17.360
<v Speaker 2>of the three of them, probably the most is the

0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.280
<v Speaker 2>one that helps keep me educated sending me articles. Have

0:13:21.360 --> 0:13:24.680
<v Speaker 2>you considered this? Think about this other point of view? Mom?

0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:26.280
<v Speaker 2>I know this is your point of view, but think

0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 2>about this other one.

0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:32.120
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, you voted for both Democratic and Republican candidates. You

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.280
<v Speaker 1>endorsed Kamala Harris for president, which I believe is the

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.000
<v Speaker 1>first time you've ever endorsed a presidential candidate. What do

0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.240
<v Speaker 1>you hope happens between now and the next election, Like,

0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:44.400
<v Speaker 1>is there a room of influential people somewhere trying to

0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.520
<v Speaker 1>figure out how to empower the next generation of candidates.

0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.960
<v Speaker 2>I hope that in the midterm elections and the elections

0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:53.679
<v Speaker 2>that come after that four years from now, that we

0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:57.000
<v Speaker 2>have a lot more female candidates and a lot more

0:13:57.040 --> 0:14:02.480
<v Speaker 2>candidates the color because when you get women into state legislatures,

0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 2>when you get them into our Congress, when you get

0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:07.679
<v Speaker 2>them into parliament, when you get people of color in

0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:12.480
<v Speaker 2>those positions, they create different policy for society because of

0:14:12.520 --> 0:14:15.880
<v Speaker 2>their lens on society. And so what I know is

0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 2>that we need more people in state houses. There's seven

0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 2>thousand seats at state houses, and we need more people

0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:23.400
<v Speaker 2>in Congress that look like us.

0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:28.080
<v Speaker 1>Women do things differently. As we've been discussing Mackenzie Scott,

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.360
<v Speaker 1>I'm curious what you think of her style of giving.

0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.560
<v Speaker 1>She's known for this more sort of no strings attached approach,

0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.080
<v Speaker 1>just give people money and see what they do with it,

0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.000
<v Speaker 1>whereas the Gates Foundation has historically been more sort of

0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 1>data driven and strategic. What do you think of her

0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:42.800
<v Speaker 1>style of giving.

0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:46.600
<v Speaker 2>I think it's fantastic for her for where she is

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 2>and what she wants to accomplish. She is living her

0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:53.920
<v Speaker 2>values out in society. She writes about her values and

0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.680
<v Speaker 2>then she lives her values through her giving. She's not

0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.480
<v Speaker 2>just giving to any organization out there. She's giving to

0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:04.840
<v Speaker 2>organization that she thinks are changing society and who are effective.

0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.840
<v Speaker 2>And I think that's phenomenal good for her. I wish

0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 2>more people would put their money where their mouth is right.

0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:15.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we look at billionaires today. They're incredibly privileged,

0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.480
<v Speaker 2>just like I'm privileged. They should be giving more away,

0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:22.920
<v Speaker 2>They should be more doing more with their own wealth

0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:26.040
<v Speaker 2>to change society. If you are lucky enough to have

0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.520
<v Speaker 2>started a company or been born in this country, you

0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 2>benefited from this country and you should be giving back.

0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:34.960
<v Speaker 1>I know you're friends with her. I'm curious how she's

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.640
<v Speaker 1>influenced you. Did you reach out to her as you

0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:39.840
<v Speaker 1>were trying to figure out how to leave your marriage

0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 1>and then the foundation.

0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:46.080
<v Speaker 2>She is a very private person and she deserves to

0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:49.160
<v Speaker 2>keep her privacy. But I will just say we had

0:15:49.480 --> 0:15:52.000
<v Speaker 2>children when they were younger, in and out of the

0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:55.760
<v Speaker 2>same school, and so we crossed paths during that time.

0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:59.640
<v Speaker 2>And then I would say probably the last eight years

0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:02.520
<v Speaker 2>we've formed even more of a friendship. She's had a

0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.400
<v Speaker 2>little more time as some of her kids go off

0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.160
<v Speaker 2>to college, so have I, and so we have just

0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 2>a really nice, candid, supportive friendship. And I'm so grateful

0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:11.960
<v Speaker 2>for that.

0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for sharing that. I know that she's very private,

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:17.800
<v Speaker 1>you know, I think about this question because men are

0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:20.520
<v Speaker 1>so well networked and seem to be helping each other

0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.320
<v Speaker 1>all the time, and I want that for women too.

0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.680
<v Speaker 1>Do you have relationships you know, is there like a

0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 1>group of power women chat with you and McKenzie and

0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:33.840
<v Speaker 1>Lorraine and Priscilla, Like, do you trade notes? About how

0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 1>to navigate this life.

0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely some of us definitely do, and those are conversations

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.440
<v Speaker 2>that are best left in private. But I've even in

0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.920
<v Speaker 2>the last two years, especially after I saw what's happened

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:49.760
<v Speaker 2>to women's rights in this country, I've reached out to

0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:52.040
<v Speaker 2>friends of friends that I never would have known before,

0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.200
<v Speaker 2>even in Silicon Valley, and have gone and had a

0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.040
<v Speaker 2>number of coffees and teas to try and get their

0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 2>perspective of what's going on, Where are you investing, how

0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:03.440
<v Speaker 2>how are you thinking about our democracy? So that's been

0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:05.720
<v Speaker 2>actually another growth point for me, even to do that

0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.960
<v Speaker 2>reach out, but also to hear their ideas and what

0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.119
<v Speaker 2>they're thinking about what they're funding, and then some of

0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:12.800
<v Speaker 2>us will start to co invest together.

0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.280
<v Speaker 1>You were high school valedictorian, You're the only woman in

0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.360
<v Speaker 1>your class. At Microsoft, you impressed one of the smartest

0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.119
<v Speaker 1>men in the world, and yet you still at times

0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.600
<v Speaker 1>felt like an impostor. Is there something that you say

0:17:24.640 --> 0:17:27.680
<v Speaker 1>to yourself to psych yourself up in the morning, because

0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:30.720
<v Speaker 1>I want to say it with you because so many

0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:33.720
<v Speaker 1>super successful women still feel that way.

0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:36.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think we have to look at the root

0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:40.800
<v Speaker 2>of why we feel that way. Society is constantly telling

0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:44.679
<v Speaker 2>us otherwise. In so many places, we walk in and

0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:47.320
<v Speaker 2>there's no one else like us, or you don't see

0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.840
<v Speaker 2>somebody who's a role model ahead of you, or you

0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:53.800
<v Speaker 2>are literally told you don't belong here, or you sit

0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.080
<v Speaker 2>at a table and people all talk over you. Right.

0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:59.639
<v Speaker 2>So society gives us these messages, and we do have

0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:01.960
<v Speaker 2>to put back on them. So when I have doubt,

0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I remind myself don't be quiet. If I start to

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.560
<v Speaker 2>feel like I want to be quiet, I have to

0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.440
<v Speaker 2>think about what happened that made me feel that way,

0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 2>And remember that's often about somebody else, not about me.

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I was actually speaking with one of my daughters very

0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:22.639
<v Speaker 2>recently on the phone who got harassed in public in

0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.440
<v Speaker 2>front of a group of other people, really harassed and bullied,

0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.040
<v Speaker 2>and her instinct was, in this particular group, I probably

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:32.680
<v Speaker 2>just won't speak up. And I said, m m m

0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 2>m m m mmm. Let's roll back, let's talk about

0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.919
<v Speaker 2>what happened here, yet again, let's go through it. And

0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.199
<v Speaker 2>then I said, you may or may not choose to

0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.760
<v Speaker 2>speak up in that group, but make sure you don't

0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.760
<v Speaker 2>fall back. That's what this person wants you to do.

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 2>They're trying to silence, you lean forward and figure out

0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:53.480
<v Speaker 2>where else to use your voice or how to take

0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.359
<v Speaker 2>your anger about that situation and fuel something else, fuel

0:18:58.359 --> 0:18:58.879
<v Speaker 2>your work.

0:18:59.040 --> 0:19:02.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so much of the world defined you not based

0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.240
<v Speaker 1>on who you are, but who you were married to.

0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.560
<v Speaker 1>Did the pressure on Bill or Microsoft and you ever

0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:10.520
<v Speaker 1>make you feel alone or stuck?

0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I didn't define myself that way, so I knew

0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.560
<v Speaker 2>who I was, I knew how I was all along.

0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:23.200
<v Speaker 2>So I think, you know, there were times I felt pressure,

0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:26.800
<v Speaker 2>but I think that was mostly maybe right after we

0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.600
<v Speaker 2>got married, and certainly after Jen was born. And here

0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:32.400
<v Speaker 2>I was, all of a sudden, living in this gigantic

0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.719
<v Speaker 2>house that I didn't particularly like, behind a gate, and

0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I realized, oh no, no, no, I need to really

0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.399
<v Speaker 2>nurture my friendships because that is where I'm going to

0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.240
<v Speaker 2>be able to make sure that I'm true to myself

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:48.919
<v Speaker 2>and who I am and if I am scared to

0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:51.080
<v Speaker 2>use my voice or to speak out or I'm look.

0:19:51.119 --> 0:19:53.719
<v Speaker 2>I was learning all new things, everything I learned at

0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.800
<v Speaker 2>the Foundation. I don't have a background in global health

0:19:55.880 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 2>or biology. I'm a computer scientist, so it was hard

0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.560
<v Speaker 2>to sit in rooms of male scientists, all male scientists

0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.960
<v Speaker 2>at times, but I could turn to my friends and

0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:08.720
<v Speaker 2>they would remind me, no, no, no, no, you got this.

0:20:08.880 --> 0:20:11.440
<v Speaker 2>You're smart enough to figure this out. Yeah, you were

0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:13.560
<v Speaker 2>nervous last time, but you went here, you know. Or

0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.159
<v Speaker 2>they would send me an encouraging word. And that's what

0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I think friends do for one another, male and female.

0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:23.959
<v Speaker 2>But I've particularly leaned on my female friends.

0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:25.960
<v Speaker 1>I know the book is about the next day, getting

0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:27.680
<v Speaker 1>to the next day, but sometimes you have to look

0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:30.280
<v Speaker 1>back to be able to move forward. What was it

0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.560
<v Speaker 1>that made you ultimately say I need to get out

0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:33.520
<v Speaker 1>of this marriage.

0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. The details about that will remain between Bill and

0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 2>me and our kids. That was a very painful time

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.800
<v Speaker 2>for all five of us, and I think it deserves

0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.480
<v Speaker 2>privacy as many people who've gone through divorce. No, it's

0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.840
<v Speaker 2>rarely one thing that happens. It's a series of things

0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:54.840
<v Speaker 2>over time. And so the only reason I even wrote

0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.520
<v Speaker 2>about that in the book was because people did know

0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:00.480
<v Speaker 2>it was public that I had gone through, and I

0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:03.560
<v Speaker 2>thought it would be disingenuous not to include something about that.

0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, Bills out with his memoir now too, and

0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:09.040
<v Speaker 1>he said that the dissolution of your marriage is his

0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.680
<v Speaker 1>biggest regret what was your reaction to that.

0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:16.119
<v Speaker 2>It is sad that the behavior that happened led to

0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:19.560
<v Speaker 2>the dissolution of our marriage. It was the behavior, and

0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:23.119
<v Speaker 2>you have to change your behavior to be able to

0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.679
<v Speaker 2>be in a trusting intimate relationship. And if that can't

0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:30.320
<v Speaker 2>happen over time and you've given many chances, then there

0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:31.359
<v Speaker 2>are consequences.

0:21:31.640 --> 0:21:34.600
<v Speaker 1>Right What about you, like, did you let go of

0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:35.840
<v Speaker 1>any dreams along the way?

0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.919
<v Speaker 2>Sure, the day I got married, I dreamt I was

0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.040
<v Speaker 2>going to be married for my whole life. That is

0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.840
<v Speaker 2>not That's not something you let go of easily. So

0:21:44.920 --> 0:21:48.480
<v Speaker 2>I had to really think and feel through that decision.

0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:52.439
<v Speaker 2>And again, I think many people who go through divorce

0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:54.920
<v Speaker 2>don't expect on the day they get married that they

0:21:54.920 --> 0:21:57.080
<v Speaker 2>will be divorced. It's a very sad thing. I wouldn't

0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.399
<v Speaker 2>wish it on anybody. But the thing that I knew

0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:03.040
<v Speaker 2>and that some people could hold out perspective for me,

0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:06.200
<v Speaker 2>is I was going to be happier on the other side.

0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:09.400
<v Speaker 2>It might take time and I would have to rebuild

0:22:09.440 --> 0:22:11.639
<v Speaker 2>some things, but I am happy. And that's what I

0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.119
<v Speaker 2>say about transitions in the book, is it's really important

0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.159
<v Speaker 2>not to go from ending one thing a job, leaving

0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:22.520
<v Speaker 2>college and just jump to the next thing. There are

0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:26.119
<v Speaker 2>things to learn in that in between space, and I

0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>feel like I spent a lot of time in that

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.159
<v Speaker 2>in between space because there were lessons I wanted to

0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.320
<v Speaker 2>learn and growth I could do myself.

0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:36.360
<v Speaker 1>Right, Change is an interesting thing and learning is an

0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:38.640
<v Speaker 1>interesting thing. Like would you have changed a thing when

0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:39.880
<v Speaker 1>you look back, would you change a thing?

0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I would have let go of perfectionism much earlier. I

0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:46.720
<v Speaker 2>would have been more relaxed. I think for my kids

0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:49.160
<v Speaker 2>it would have been easier at their younger years, So yeah,

0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:50.800
<v Speaker 2>I would have changed that if I could.

0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:53.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, you talked a little bit about how you

0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:54.720
<v Speaker 1>broke up, you got put together, you broke up, you

0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:57.320
<v Speaker 1>got back together. Like, how do you know for the

0:22:57.320 --> 0:22:59.359
<v Speaker 1>people out there, men and women who feel stuck in

0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:02.119
<v Speaker 1>a marriage, how do you know when it's too hard?

0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 1>How hard is too hard?

0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:07.320
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I can answer that for other people.

0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:10.760
<v Speaker 2>I think people have to find it in themselves and

0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.800
<v Speaker 2>know what's right for them. Because our circumstances aren't all

0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:18.400
<v Speaker 2>the same right, and different things happen in different marriages.

0:23:18.440 --> 0:23:22.399
<v Speaker 2>We never ever know what really goes on inside somebody

0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:23.679
<v Speaker 2>else's marriage that I know.

0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.159
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's the last question about this, but it's a

0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.000
<v Speaker 1>good one. You didn't sign a prenup, which surprised me,

0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.560
<v Speaker 1>and so you had to negotiate with someone who faced

0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.359
<v Speaker 1>down the Justice Department. I feel like you learn a

0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:38.800
<v Speaker 1>lot about someone in a negotiation. Who were you in

0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:43.000
<v Speaker 1>that negotiation? What did you learn and did you get

0:23:43.040 --> 0:23:43.639
<v Speaker 1>what you wanted?

0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:49.399
<v Speaker 2>I learned to surround myself with great people, and I

0:23:49.440 --> 0:23:52.439
<v Speaker 2>do that in my life. I do that in my work.

0:23:52.920 --> 0:23:56.439
<v Speaker 2>And I surrounded myself with a team who had my back,

0:23:56.960 --> 0:24:00.399
<v Speaker 2>and I learned a lot in the process. We'll just

0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:01.680
<v Speaker 2>leave it there, Okay.

0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:04.720
<v Speaker 1>When you worked at Microsoft, you had this project called

0:24:04.720 --> 0:24:08.240
<v Speaker 1>Microsoft Bob. I wonder if it was ahead of its time, right,

0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:11.320
<v Speaker 1>because it was software that would make computers easier to use.

0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:13.600
<v Speaker 1>And now we're moving into this era of AI and

0:24:13.640 --> 0:24:16.240
<v Speaker 1>agents doing everything for us. Like, what is life like

0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:19.640
<v Speaker 1>in a world where AI agents do everything for us?

0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh? Gosh, I think it's gonna help us learn more quickly,

0:24:24.400 --> 0:24:28.040
<v Speaker 2>move through our days more efficiently. I mean, some of

0:24:28.080 --> 0:24:32.000
<v Speaker 2>those early concepts in Bob are actually starting to come

0:24:32.040 --> 0:24:35.280
<v Speaker 2>to fruition now. So the thing that people always like

0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:37.440
<v Speaker 2>to make fun of is Clippy. You know Clippy?

0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:37.800
<v Speaker 1>Oh?

0:24:37.920 --> 0:24:41.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, oh remember Clippy. Yes. Clippy actually was one of

0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:45.000
<v Speaker 2>the early agents that came up in Publisher and then Bob.

0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:48.679
<v Speaker 2>So while Publisher was a success, while Bob was not

0:24:48.760 --> 0:24:52.119
<v Speaker 2>because we didn't have enough compute power, the idea of

0:24:52.160 --> 0:24:56.199
<v Speaker 2>an agent was really there. And those are some of

0:24:56.200 --> 0:24:58.880
<v Speaker 2>the concepts I see taking off now. While that one

0:24:59.359 --> 0:25:03.360
<v Speaker 2>happened to be particularly annoying, although it has a fan

0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:06.640
<v Speaker 2>base on the other side, I understand. But that concept

0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:08.439
<v Speaker 2>that you didn't have to start, I mean, we used

0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:11.680
<v Speaker 2>to sit down at a computer and graphical using interface

0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:14.560
<v Speaker 2>was a blank piece of paper. Before that, it was

0:25:14.600 --> 0:25:17.880
<v Speaker 2>a blank screen when you sat down at your word processor,

0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:20.800
<v Speaker 2>whereas now you know you start with form. Well, now

0:25:20.880 --> 0:25:23.840
<v Speaker 2>you talk to your AI agent about okay, help me

0:25:23.880 --> 0:25:25.720
<v Speaker 2>write a resume. Here are the ten things I want

0:25:25.760 --> 0:25:28.120
<v Speaker 2>to put in it, and it formulates it. You help

0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:31.320
<v Speaker 2>it reformulate it asks you questions. You ask it questions,

0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:34.639
<v Speaker 2>and you know, you're so much more efficient than starting

0:25:34.680 --> 0:25:37.080
<v Speaker 2>with a blank piece of paper to write your resume.

0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:39.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know about you, but I remember doing that.

0:25:39.119 --> 0:25:40.639
<v Speaker 2>It was a big, daunting task.

0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:42.840
<v Speaker 1>But so how does life change dat we're all going

0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:44.840
<v Speaker 1>to have our own personal AIS.

0:25:45.280 --> 0:25:48.040
<v Speaker 2>I think someday we will mm hmm, yeah, And I

0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:50.199
<v Speaker 2>think personal is the key thing. It needs to be

0:25:50.320 --> 0:25:53.200
<v Speaker 2>personal to us and our data doesn't need to be

0:25:53.280 --> 0:25:54.920
<v Speaker 2>shared with everybody else.

0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:57.640
<v Speaker 1>What's your advice to kids today? Should they still learn

0:25:57.640 --> 0:25:59.960
<v Speaker 1>how to code? Or will AI do everything for us?

0:26:00.080 --> 0:26:01.840
<v Speaker 2>Well? I think AI is going to do a fair

0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:04.679
<v Speaker 2>bit going forward. But I still think there's value in

0:26:04.760 --> 0:26:06.879
<v Speaker 2>learning to code. Like, I don't know about you, but

0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:09.280
<v Speaker 2>I still learned to tell the time even though we

0:26:09.280 --> 0:26:12.840
<v Speaker 2>were in a digital age, right, I think there's absolutely

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:17.639
<v Speaker 2>value and there's creativity in coding as well, and for

0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:20.600
<v Speaker 2>your own mind, you're learning logic, right, So I definitely

0:26:20.600 --> 0:26:22.760
<v Speaker 2>tell kids it's still a great place to go.

0:26:23.200 --> 0:26:26.359
<v Speaker 1>Women aren't only represented in the people who are building AI,

0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:30.439
<v Speaker 1>they're underrepresented in the people who are using AI. What

0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:32.000
<v Speaker 1>are the consequences of that?

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:35.679
<v Speaker 2>They'll get left behind in certain ways in society. I

0:26:35.680 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 2>don't know. My female friends and I are all using AI.

0:26:39.000 --> 0:26:41.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's kind of like, why wouldn't I use AI?

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:44.280
<v Speaker 2>In fact, we joke about the fact. One of my

0:26:44.320 --> 0:26:46.159
<v Speaker 2>friends and I were joking we're on a walk yesterday

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:48.040
<v Speaker 2>with two other friends and this one friend and I

0:26:48.080 --> 0:26:50.399
<v Speaker 2>worked at Microsoft, and it was like, so, what version

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:52.720
<v Speaker 2>are you on of chat GPT? We are just trying

0:26:52.760 --> 0:26:55.200
<v Speaker 2>to stay up with the leading edge so that we

0:26:55.800 --> 0:26:58.639
<v Speaker 2>aren't left behind in society. I'm sixty years old, but

0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:02.320
<v Speaker 2>anyone come up in society ought to be using AI.

0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:05.000
<v Speaker 2>Students ought to be using AI. They will learn more

0:27:05.040 --> 0:27:07.600
<v Speaker 2>deeply and better. One of the things I love about

0:27:07.640 --> 0:27:10.399
<v Speaker 2>AI is that explains the concepts to you. It's not

0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:13.159
<v Speaker 2>just giving you the answer, You're learning the concepts.

0:27:13.520 --> 0:27:15.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm using it all day, every day, so I hope

0:27:15.040 --> 0:27:18.160
<v Speaker 1>it doesn't make me stupider because I'm like, really need

0:27:18.200 --> 0:27:20.680
<v Speaker 1>it right now. I think it makes me more productive.

0:27:20.720 --> 0:27:21.520
<v Speaker 1>That's where I've met it.

0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:23.520
<v Speaker 2>I think it makes you more productive. But also I

0:27:23.560 --> 0:27:25.560
<v Speaker 2>don't know about you, but I'm asking it all the

0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 2>time questions about nature and society. I go to a

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:32.439
<v Speaker 2>low income country and I can immediately learn where does

0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:35.119
<v Speaker 2>their GDP come from? What are the income streams, what

0:27:35.200 --> 0:27:38.720
<v Speaker 2>are the outflows, what's the population? I can compare countries.

0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:42.160
<v Speaker 2>When I used to travel to so many places in Africa,

0:27:42.320 --> 0:27:43.920
<v Speaker 2>I used to have to take a piece of paper

0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:47.000
<v Speaker 2>and somebody had to put those stats together for me beforehand.

0:27:47.280 --> 0:27:48.920
<v Speaker 2>Now I just ask Chad Gpt.

0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:51.399
<v Speaker 1>What do you make of the tech billionaires lining up

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.040
<v Speaker 1>behind President Trump and Silicon Valley's right turn.

0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:59.240
<v Speaker 2>I think there are there's certainly reasons that that has happened.

0:27:59.800 --> 0:28:02.440
<v Speaker 2>But all I can say is I'm not going to

0:28:02.480 --> 0:28:05.520
<v Speaker 2>comment on other people's values, but I will say this

0:28:05.720 --> 0:28:09.440
<v Speaker 2>that in these times, I always believe we should live

0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.920
<v Speaker 2>our own values, and that it's important to speak our

0:28:14.080 --> 0:28:17.320
<v Speaker 2>truth and our own values in society. And yet what

0:28:17.400 --> 0:28:20.359
<v Speaker 2>I have seen in the last six months to a

0:28:20.440 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 2>year is many people who used to say one thing

0:28:23.800 --> 0:28:27.080
<v Speaker 2>have absolutely shifted over here. And so I say to myself, well,

0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 2>what are their values? Right? And look, a democracy is

0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:37.320
<v Speaker 2>made up by our beliefs and our investments and our values,

0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:40.360
<v Speaker 2>and we, of all times right now should be living

0:28:40.400 --> 0:28:43.840
<v Speaker 2>those values out, not pivoting to what some comms person

0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:45.560
<v Speaker 2>tells us is the right thing to do.

0:28:46.000 --> 0:28:49.160
<v Speaker 1>The Make Men Great Again movement? What's your take on that.

0:28:49.560 --> 0:28:52.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't ever like anything that pitts women versus men,

0:28:53.040 --> 0:28:56.240
<v Speaker 2>or men versus women. That's not healthy for society. The

0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:59.400
<v Speaker 2>truth is there are many great men in society, and

0:28:59.440 --> 0:29:02.080
<v Speaker 2>there are many great women in society. We need to

0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:05.960
<v Speaker 2>support both so that they both get to where they

0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:08.960
<v Speaker 2>want to be in society and can thrive. We are

0:29:09.080 --> 0:29:12.600
<v Speaker 2>seeing more girls graduate from college, so we do need

0:29:12.640 --> 0:29:15.920
<v Speaker 2>to be making more investments in boys. We also need

0:29:15.960 --> 0:29:18.360
<v Speaker 2>to be looking at why are young boys saying I

0:29:18.400 --> 0:29:21.400
<v Speaker 2>don't know what my future role is in society. I

0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:25.360
<v Speaker 2>look at the mental health statistics for girls and boys,

0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and I say, Wow, there's a lot of work to do.

0:29:28.640 --> 0:29:31.600
<v Speaker 2>So there's just no reason to pit one against the other.

0:29:32.200 --> 0:29:36.280
<v Speaker 1>Elon Musk and Doge, how do you feel about one man,

0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:40.440
<v Speaker 1>a billionaire, having that much independent power within the federal government.

0:29:41.080 --> 0:29:45.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, it's unprecedented, for sure. We haven't seen it before, right,

0:29:45.720 --> 0:29:52.000
<v Speaker 2>and again, I can speak at great length about USAID

0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:55.920
<v Speaker 2>and the work they have done in the world that

0:29:56.200 --> 0:30:00.360
<v Speaker 2>keeps peace and prosperity in the world. And so to

0:30:00.480 --> 0:30:04.320
<v Speaker 2>have anyone come in and say, you know, we're just

0:30:04.360 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 2>gonna wipe it out like that, that makes no sense

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:08.200
<v Speaker 2>to me.

0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:10.800
<v Speaker 1>I have three boys and a girl. Yeah, which we

0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:13.440
<v Speaker 1>talked about. We talked about responsibilities to our daughters and

0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:16.719
<v Speaker 1>to our sons. There's a generation of boys coming up

0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:20.240
<v Speaker 1>that statistics show are less likely to go to college,

0:30:20.800 --> 0:30:25.080
<v Speaker 1>are more likely to feel alone, feel their opportunities are

0:30:25.120 --> 0:30:28.280
<v Speaker 1>slipping away. What do you think is going on there

0:30:28.600 --> 0:30:29.960
<v Speaker 1>and what can we do about it?

0:30:30.520 --> 0:30:33.880
<v Speaker 2>Well? I think we need to make investments in those boys.

0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:37.560
<v Speaker 2>They need more role models. It can be a good coach,

0:30:37.680 --> 0:30:39.960
<v Speaker 2>it can be a teacher at school if there's no

0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:42.720
<v Speaker 2>dad in the home. If there is a dad, great,

0:30:42.960 --> 0:30:47.000
<v Speaker 2>But we need to come together and really deeply understand

0:30:47.040 --> 0:30:49.200
<v Speaker 2>what's going on with our boys. There's been some good

0:30:49.240 --> 0:30:52.360
<v Speaker 2>research on this, but further I think needs to be done.

0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:55.400
<v Speaker 2>But people like Richard Reeves or Gary Barker, they are

0:30:55.440 --> 0:30:59.680
<v Speaker 2>coming up with ways to support boys so that they

0:30:59.760 --> 0:31:03.479
<v Speaker 2>can figure out good roles through society, ways that they

0:31:03.560 --> 0:31:05.120
<v Speaker 2>want to be in society.

0:31:05.760 --> 0:31:08.400
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I appreciate that you're still speaking up about women.

0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 1>You know, as we talked about I wrote a book

0:31:10.200 --> 0:31:13.280
<v Speaker 1>called Protopia back in the day. It does seem like

0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:16.880
<v Speaker 1>the conversation about women making strides has gone very quiet.

0:31:17.400 --> 0:31:19.640
<v Speaker 1>I wish there was just something that we could all

0:31:19.680 --> 0:31:23.160
<v Speaker 1>get behind together. Why do you think that is? Are

0:31:23.160 --> 0:31:28.040
<v Speaker 1>we scared? Is it cancel culture? What happened to our voices?

0:31:28.800 --> 0:31:32.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't think the voices are gone. But sometimes when

0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:36.520
<v Speaker 2>you are strategizing and you're figuring out where you go next,

0:31:36.600 --> 0:31:42.360
<v Speaker 2>like geopolitically, things have changed massively in the last few months, massively,

0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:47.440
<v Speaker 2>So how we strategize and where we make investments and

0:31:47.520 --> 0:31:51.360
<v Speaker 2>where we use our voices? Just give a little time.

0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:54.840
<v Speaker 2>I hope you're right. I hope you're right. The best

0:31:54.880 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 2>answer is not always the quickest answer. Yeah right, I mean,

0:31:59.120 --> 0:32:02.719
<v Speaker 2>look at the work no Elson Mandelatid. Look how long

0:32:03.400 --> 0:32:06.480
<v Speaker 2>that took. It took a very long time, but the

0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:12.479
<v Speaker 2>resistance was there all the way through, and eventually it

0:32:12.520 --> 0:32:16.400
<v Speaker 2>came to fruition. So it's not always first mover or

0:32:16.480 --> 0:32:19.720
<v Speaker 2>first speaker that has the advantage. Sometimes it's the person

0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:21.160
<v Speaker 2>who quietly strategizes.

0:32:21.400 --> 0:32:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Well, let's take a look at the quick answer, the

0:32:23.400 --> 0:32:27.000
<v Speaker 1>pullback of DEI, the rollback of DEI. How's that going

0:32:27.040 --> 0:32:29.120
<v Speaker 1>to be written in the history books?

0:32:29.160 --> 0:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>Not favorably. I do not think favorly. Again, you have

0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:37.120
<v Speaker 2>to look at society. Who's in society right now? And

0:32:37.200 --> 0:32:40.760
<v Speaker 2>does our democracy, do our state legislatures and does our

0:32:40.840 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 2>Senate and does our Congress look like society? And the

0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:48.520
<v Speaker 2>answer is no, we don't have enough Native Americans Asians,

0:32:49.280 --> 0:32:52.920
<v Speaker 2>Black people, we don't have enough women, so we have

0:32:53.000 --> 0:32:56.520
<v Speaker 2>to all be pushing to make sure that we have

0:32:57.040 --> 0:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>good representation in all of those places and culture. So

0:33:01.280 --> 0:33:04.520
<v Speaker 2>the stories that we tell the movies, we know that

0:33:04.640 --> 0:33:07.800
<v Speaker 2>affects people. And the reason you need to have all

0:33:07.840 --> 0:33:12.000
<v Speaker 2>of society represented in the legislature, in any governing body

0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:16.840
<v Speaker 2>is because they make good policy based on their lived experience.

0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:22.880
<v Speaker 1>You recently turned sixty. Yeah, mommy at sixty, grandmommy at sixty.

0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:26.880
<v Speaker 2>What's that like? It's a joy, you know, as my

0:33:27.400 --> 0:33:31.080
<v Speaker 2>adult children are truly adults now, they need you less

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.320
<v Speaker 2>or they need me less. So I certainly talk to them,

0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:36.840
<v Speaker 2>I certainly see them, but you know, there's way less

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:39.120
<v Speaker 2>of the day to day that doesn't exist anymore, so

0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:42.760
<v Speaker 2>it gives me more time. And then my granddaughters are

0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:44.560
<v Speaker 2>on the other side of the country, but I try

0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:47.959
<v Speaker 2>to see them every six weeks. And it is absolutely

0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:51.200
<v Speaker 2>delightful to have little ones again that you can run

0:33:51.200 --> 0:33:54.120
<v Speaker 2>around the yard with, go down the slide, even when

0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:56.000
<v Speaker 2>you don't think you want to go down the slide,

0:33:56.400 --> 0:33:58.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, get on the outdoor trampoline. It's a delight

0:33:59.320 --> 0:33:59.760
<v Speaker 2>dating it.

0:34:00.640 --> 0:34:01.360
<v Speaker 1>What's that like?

0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>Fabulous? Much better than I thought, much better. Good.

0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:10.040
<v Speaker 1>You should be enjoying yourself. People love hearing about the

0:34:10.080 --> 0:34:13.960
<v Speaker 1>habits of great leaders. What's one of your daily rituals

0:34:14.280 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 1>or a habit that helps you be a great leader?

0:34:18.520 --> 0:34:21.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, I often try to do something somewhat difficult in

0:34:21.920 --> 0:34:26.520
<v Speaker 2>the morning. So whether that's in the gym via exercise,

0:34:26.760 --> 0:34:29.439
<v Speaker 2>or whether I've been going in the cold plunge now

0:34:29.520 --> 0:34:32.640
<v Speaker 2>for almost a decade and how long can you go

0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:34.799
<v Speaker 2>and stay in it? If you've done something hard in

0:34:34.840 --> 0:34:37.120
<v Speaker 2>the morning, it tends to make the rest of your

0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:39.759
<v Speaker 2>day feel, at least for me, less hard. And then

0:34:39.800 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 2>the other thing I would say is just I really

0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:45.279
<v Speaker 2>work and have worked in the last twenty years to

0:34:45.400 --> 0:34:49.360
<v Speaker 2>surround myself with people who will tell me the truth,

0:34:50.200 --> 0:34:52.640
<v Speaker 2>be candid even when I may not want to hear it.

0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:56.520
<v Speaker 2>But also just are good people. Smart people for sure.

0:34:56.640 --> 0:35:00.960
<v Speaker 2>I like high intellect, high IQ, but just good values

0:35:01.400 --> 0:35:04.280
<v Speaker 2>and it just makes everything easier. You know, you build

0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:06.839
<v Speaker 2>trust over time. You can count on people, they can

0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:10.040
<v Speaker 2>rely on you, you can rely on them. I can

0:35:10.080 --> 0:35:12.880
<v Speaker 2>be more vulnerable with them, which is nice because you know,

0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:15.440
<v Speaker 2>not every day is a fabulous day, right, And so

0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:17.920
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you come in a little cranky and you kind

0:35:17.920 --> 0:35:19.560
<v Speaker 2>of just need to say that to people around, like,

0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:21.360
<v Speaker 2>give me a little grace today because I may not

0:35:21.400 --> 0:35:22.439
<v Speaker 2>be my best.

0:35:23.200 --> 0:35:27.080
<v Speaker 1>Melinda Frenchgates three point zero. What is the next chapter

0:35:27.280 --> 0:35:28.640
<v Speaker 1>that hasn't been written?

0:35:29.440 --> 0:35:33.560
<v Speaker 2>Who knows? I am so excited. I mean, I think,

0:35:33.960 --> 0:35:37.760
<v Speaker 2>certainly at least another decade of work, you know, making

0:35:37.800 --> 0:35:40.520
<v Speaker 2>sure that women step into their full power. I hope

0:35:40.560 --> 0:35:42.520
<v Speaker 2>more grandkids, but I don't want to put any pressure

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:44.319
<v Speaker 2>on my kids. And then we'll see from there.

0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:46.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, what do you want from the next decade?

0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:50.279
<v Speaker 2>Like for you, I just want to live my life

0:35:50.360 --> 0:35:54.280
<v Speaker 2>the way I'm living it right now, which is I'm happy.

0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:57.400
<v Speaker 2>I feel like I'm flourishing. I feel like my family

0:35:57.440 --> 0:36:01.040
<v Speaker 2>and friends know that I love them, I know they

0:36:01.080 --> 0:36:03.239
<v Speaker 2>love me, and I just want a whole lot more

0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:04.440
<v Speaker 2>of that. I love that.

0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:08.359
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Oh my gosh, there were so many times

0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:11.480
<v Speaker 1>when you're speaking that I honestly I welled up because

0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:15.080
<v Speaker 1>I feel like I feel like women have been silent

0:36:15.880 --> 0:36:20.719
<v Speaker 1>and I am really grateful, honestly liked that you are

0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:21.480
<v Speaker 1>speaking up.

0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Use your voice to thank you.

0:36:23.640 --> 0:36:24.200
<v Speaker 1>I will try.

0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:24.919
<v Speaker 2>I will try.

0:36:24.960 --> 0:36:25.440
<v Speaker 1>It's hard.

0:36:25.480 --> 0:36:27.400
<v Speaker 2>It is hard to use your woe. All have to

0:36:27.520 --> 0:36:31.120
<v Speaker 2>use our voice and our platforms and our resources, any

0:36:31.160 --> 0:36:33.160
<v Speaker 2>of those three or all of them, whatever we've got,

0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:36.000
<v Speaker 2>it's going to take all of us and like minded men.

0:36:36.000 --> 0:36:38.399
<v Speaker 2>There's so many great like minded men, and so it's

0:36:38.480 --> 0:36:42.600
<v Speaker 2>just like, just because the loudest voices are trying to

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<v Speaker 2>silence us, we should not be silent for exactly that reason.

0:36:47.360 --> 0:36:50.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, thank you for speaking up and for using your voice.

0:36:50.239 --> 0:36:57.759
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Thanks Emily, Thanks so much for listening to

0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:00.279
<v Speaker 1>this edition of the Circuit. You can catch the full

0:37:00.320 --> 0:37:03.759
<v Speaker 1>episode on Bloomberg Originals. I'm Emily Chang, follow me on

0:37:04.000 --> 0:37:06.600
<v Speaker 1>x and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. And you can

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.360
<v Speaker 1>watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or

0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:12.480
<v Speaker 1>streaming on the Bloomberg Gap or YouTube and let us

0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:15.600
<v Speaker 1>know what you think by leaving a review. Those extra reviews,

0:37:15.680 --> 0:37:19.520
<v Speaker 1>they really make a difference. I'm your host and executive producer.

0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:23.000
<v Speaker 1>Our senior producer is Lauren Ellis. Our associate producer is

0:37:23.040 --> 0:37:26.880
<v Speaker 1>Heather Glover Huang. Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks so

0:37:26.960 --> 0:37:27.640
<v Speaker 1>much for listening.