Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chang, and this is the podcast version of
Speaker 1: The Circuit, my show on Bloomberg Originals. Today we're taking
Speaker 1: you to Seattle, Washington to meet Melinda French Gates. She's
Speaker 1: the famed billionaire, philanthropist, investor, and a champion for gender equality, education, health,
Speaker 1: and human rights around the globe. Melinda is one of
Speaker 1: the world's most powerful women and became a driving force
Speaker 1: of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, but she was
Speaker 1: often publicly defined by her marriage to the man behind
Speaker 1: the Microsoft Empire. Now she's stepping into a new spotlight
Speaker 1: that's unapologetically her own. I wanted to get a sense
Speaker 1: of the Melinda behind the headlines, the Melinda before the Gates,
Speaker 1: and travel with her to a special place in Seattle
Speaker 1: where it all began, when she was just Melinda French
Speaker 1: starting a new job at this little company called Microsoft.
Speaker 1: We've met a few times over the years, when you
Speaker 1: were married to Bill and the foundation was humming. We
Speaker 1: spoke during the pandemic, when now that I read your book,
Speaker 1: you are hiding this separation, and now that you've written
Speaker 1: your memoir, I feel like the world knows you as
Speaker 1: Melinda Gates, but who is Melinda French Gates.
Speaker 2: I am the person that I write about in the book.
Speaker 2: You know, I have a lot of friends in Seattle,
Speaker 2: male and female. I like to do puzzles. I'm intense
Speaker 2: at times. I like to have a lot of fun too.
Speaker 2: I love to travel, and probably the best kind of
Speaker 2: trip is where I'm learning something and or I'm getting
Speaker 2: to exercise as part of the trip, you know, hiking
Speaker 2: or biking or jogging, all of those things.
Speaker 1: In the book you talk about you always knew you
Speaker 1: wanted to be a working mom, and you know, as
Speaker 1: we talked about Unlash, I had this power career, big
Speaker 1: tech and risen up in management. What was the transition
Speaker 1: like to leave work and be a mom full time
Speaker 1: and let that go?
Speaker 2: It was something I definitely wanted. Because I was having
Speaker 2: this baby, I got pretty clamsy, so I was bed
Speaker 2: ridden a little earlier than I thought. I had to
Speaker 2: leave work suddenly. But I was planning to leave Microsoft,
Speaker 2: and really that had a lot to do with Bill
Speaker 2: was the CEO and traveling all over the world and
Speaker 2: to have the family life we wanted to have. I
Speaker 2: felt like I wanted to be home, but it was
Speaker 2: really hard on me. So much harder than I expected.
Speaker 2: I moved to a house that was very large, behind
Speaker 2: a much bigger git. I have this new little baby
Speaker 2: who I adore and love. But you know, I don't
Speaker 2: have my career anymore. I'm not around all these hard
Speaker 2: charging people intellectual topics. So I had to learn over
Speaker 2: time how to rebuild that for myself through my friendships,
Speaker 2: and also start doing some board work so I could
Speaker 2: stay engaged.
Speaker 1: One of the pieces of advice in your book that
Speaker 1: I love is you talk about not needing to be
Speaker 1: a perfect parent, but a good enough parent. Can you
Speaker 1: explain that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wrote about that because it's a concept I
Speaker 2: didn't learn till my kids were in middle school, and
Speaker 2: I wish I had learned earlier. I'd always been this perfectionist,
Speaker 2: and that's not always a good thing, right, especially as
Speaker 2: you're a mom. And so when I finally learned this
Speaker 2: concept that children need one good enough parent and they're
Speaker 2: going to be okay, I could let my guard down,
Speaker 2: because there is no such thing as a perfect parent, right.
Speaker 2: But I had some mythical perfect mom in my head.
Speaker 2: And once I thought about and read the concept of
Speaker 2: the perfect parent, someone explained it to me. I thought, why,
Speaker 2: I am certainly a good enough parent these kids, They're
Speaker 2: going to be okay.
Speaker 1: Warren Buffett pulled you back to work when he gave
Speaker 1: thirty billion dollars to the Bill and the lind Of
Speaker 1: Gates Foundation, which you ran together for twenty five years.
Speaker 1: What was it that made you say I need to
Speaker 1: let this go and step back from that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, leaving the Foundation was something that weighed very heavily
Speaker 2: on me. I wanted to be very thoughtful if I left,
Speaker 2: but it became just clear to me that the US
Speaker 2: was changing very rapidly before our eyes, that women's rights
Speaker 2: were being rolled back, and that I had a lot
Speaker 2: of work ahead of me that I wanted to do
Speaker 2: on that and to use my voice behind. And I
Speaker 2: also felt like the Foundation was in a really good place.
Speaker 2: It has a board now. Mark Susman's been in the
Speaker 2: CEO role. He's fantastic. So I felt like it was
Speaker 2: a time I could leave to now emphasize and focus
Speaker 2: more on the US. I'm doing both domestic and global
Speaker 2: work at Pivotal Ventures on Behalf of Women, but I'm
Speaker 2: doing more domestic work given the times we're in.
Speaker 1: Pivotal is now the center of all your work. You're
Speaker 1: making all of these bets, these gifts, doing all this
Speaker 1: research on your own. What are you saying that you
Speaker 1: can do differently given your social capital and your economic power.
Speaker 2: Well, it's much the same as what I did at
Speaker 2: the Foundation. But I can use my voice completely and
Speaker 2: fully in whatever way I want and use my resources.
Speaker 2: I don't have to go to a board, I don't
Speaker 2: have to go to a partner to decide right, and
Speaker 2: so I'm using every tool in my toolbox, whether that's advocacy,
Speaker 2: whether that's philanthropy, whether that's investments, because I think all
Speaker 2: of those things are needed if we're going to really
Speaker 2: advance women to their rightful place in society.
Speaker 1: President Trump pulled the US out of the World Health Organization,
Speaker 1: cutting back on scientific research, medical research, foreign aid. How
Speaker 1: is President Trump and these actions, how is this impacting
Speaker 1: the philanthropic world. I understand that there's quite a sense
Speaker 1: of urgency.
Speaker 2: There's an enormous sense of urgency. Just take USAID alone.
Speaker 2: That is something that has been in place for a
Speaker 2: long time that both Republican and Democratic presidents supported, and
Speaker 2: there was a reason for it, a logical reason, which is,
Speaker 2: if people can be healthy and have peace and prosper
Speaker 2: where they are, they will want to stay there. And
Speaker 2: so the cuts in USAID alone, sixteen point nine million
Speaker 2: women will not get maternal health services. Think about what
Speaker 2: that means to lose a mom in childbirth and she's
Speaker 2: already got children at home. I mean, you're going to
Speaker 2: devastate some of these communities. People are going hungry because
Speaker 2: of those cuts. And what I know from meeting so
Speaker 2: many families and so many low income countries around the
Speaker 2: world is those grants made a difference in their health
Speaker 2: and in their well being and in them being able
Speaker 2: to pull themselves out of poverty. As Americans, is that
Speaker 2: what we want? Do we want to create more crises
Speaker 2: around the world or do we want peace and prosperity
Speaker 2: for others so they can live where they are?
Speaker 1: So, how are you changing your giving strategy as a
Speaker 1: result of what you're seeing.
Speaker 2: Well, there's no amount of philanthropy, none, that can fill
Speaker 2: in for the loss from the US government. And I
Speaker 2: think the thing people need to most understand is that
Speaker 2: was less than one percent, far less than one percent
Speaker 2: of the US government budget. So philanthropy can't fill that whole.
Speaker 2: What I can do is fund others who are also
Speaker 2: working in those communities to lift people up. But make
Speaker 2: no mistake, the US has built infrastructure around the world,
Speaker 2: the labs around the world that report diseases so we
Speaker 2: know about them before they come to our own country.
Speaker 2: All of that infrastructure will crumble, all of it. And
Speaker 2: so to me, there's no logical sense. There's a logical
Speaker 2: sense for saying, maybe there's some places where there was
Speaker 2: waste or there was fat, maybe we need to cut
Speaker 2: ten percent or fifteen percent. But a good manager looks
Speaker 2: at that and looks at it carefully before they make
Speaker 2: cuts like that.
Speaker 1: It's not just science, it's potentially the Department of Education.
Speaker 1: What does this mean for America?
Speaker 2: We don't know yet. We haven't run this particular experiment yet.
Speaker 2: But what I know is that we've had a healthy
Speaker 2: and thriving democracy. We've had problems around the edges of it,
Speaker 2: and definitely I'm the first one to tell you it
Speaker 2: needs fine tuning. But to wipe out the Department of Education, now,
Speaker 2: how is that good for students? You could decide you
Speaker 2: want to do a bit more at the state level.
Speaker 2: A lot of what happens is at the state level,
Speaker 2: but there needs to be some guidance from the top, right,
Speaker 2: So why would you wipe out the whole Department of Education?
Speaker 2: How does that benefit students? We need to think about
Speaker 2: the end result of who's benefiting from these kinds of things,
Speaker 2: and is that the chaos that we want.
Speaker 1: The critics of philanthropy say it's been astonishingly ineffective at
Speaker 1: solving societal problems. That giving has increased, but problems have
Speaker 1: gotten worse. There's a lot of critiques actually of billionaire philanthropy.
Speaker 1: What's fair and what's not well.
Speaker 2: I would beg to differ on some of the philanthropy
Speaker 2: we know. Millions of people are alive because of the
Speaker 2: life saving vaccines that have been developed and given around
Speaker 2: the world the Alliance for Vaccines and Immunization. Moms and
Speaker 2: dads uds in low income countries line up to get
Speaker 2: measles vaccines for their children because you know what a
Speaker 2: measle's outbreak in their community means that kids die. So
Speaker 2: millions of children alive because of that. The President's Emergency
Speaker 2: Plan for AIDS relief, started by George W. Bush that
Speaker 2: has saved millions of lives. The rate of deaths of
Speaker 2: HIV have come down over the years, the number of
Speaker 2: children dying of malaria has come down. So has all
Speaker 2: of philanthropy been great? No? But has some of it?
Speaker 2: And can we measure some of it? You bet we can.
Speaker 2: And philanthropy is only one tool in the toolbox. Philanthropy
Speaker 2: can take a risk that we wouldn't want government to
Speaker 2: take with our taxpayer funding, but it can prove things
Speaker 2: out at scale, and then governments can come in to
Speaker 2: scale that up. So it takes philanthropy, it takes civil society,
Speaker 2: takes government, it takes private sector. But there are large
Speaker 2: societal problems that are left behind that things like capitalism
Speaker 2: doesn't solve. And as Warren Buffett says, those are the
Speaker 2: hard problems left behind, and philanthropy goes and tries and
Speaker 2: does their best to tackle those.
Speaker 1: Speaking of measuring things, you, Bill and Warren started the
Speaker 1: Giving Pledge to encourage people to give away the majority
Speaker 1: of their wealth. Some people think it's inspiring, but it's
Speaker 1: all taught. There's no accountability. Are you tracking it and
Speaker 1: is it working?
Speaker 2: We are tracking it to the extent we can. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's hard to know for sure if a particular philanthropist,
Speaker 2: if they choose to increase their giving next year. Are
Speaker 2: they necessarily going to give the giving pledge credit? Not necessarily.
Speaker 2: But what I do know is that a lot of
Speaker 2: the philanthropists have learned from one another and they'll get
Speaker 2: inspired by another philanthropist and then get going. Not everybody
Speaker 2: in the group, but some for sure.
Speaker 1: Some good news. Women are actually coming into a lot
Speaker 1: more money. There's a huge generational wealth transfer happening. More
Speaker 1: women are making money at work. If women control more
Speaker 1: money globally, how could that change society?
Speaker 2: I think it would change. It will change society fundamentally,
Speaker 2: especially if women control the money and can spend it
Speaker 2: the way they want. We have good global research that
Speaker 2: shows in most countries around the world, low and middle income,
Speaker 2: when a woman gets an extra equivalent of a dollar
Speaker 2: in her hand, she spends it on her children and
Speaker 2: on her family, and she spends it on medications for
Speaker 2: her children. So women make different investments versus men. I
Speaker 2: also think when women control more resources, they will fund
Speaker 2: other women's businesses because they'll say, oh, yes, we need
Speaker 2: a new one of those, and the husband may not
Speaker 2: see it, or the man may not see it just
Speaker 2: because nothing's wrong. He just has a different lens on society,
Speaker 2: and so to me, it's profound when women can control resources,
Speaker 2: and you're seeing it more in the United States. You're
Speaker 2: seeing more women in the middle class working, saving money.
Speaker 2: I mean, seventy seven million women in this country work,
Speaker 2: and of most families that have kids in the United States,
Speaker 2: sixty seven percent of them both parents work. There's a
Speaker 2: reason for that. They're trying to get ahead as a family.
Speaker 2: They're trying to support their kids with a good education.
Speaker 2: And the truth is all over the world. When I've
Speaker 2: talked to moms and dads in all kinds of countries
Speaker 2: in Africa or Bangladesh or in India, they all hope
Speaker 2: and dream the same thing we do for our kids,
Speaker 2: which is a better future for their children.
Speaker 1: Still, women's rights are under threat. What advice to you
Speaker 1: giving to your own daughters right now?
Speaker 2: Use your voice, use your voice, learn, learn deeply, and
Speaker 2: to the extent you're ready, start using some of your
Speaker 2: resources on that. And I couldn't be more proud of
Speaker 2: both my daughters and my son for really learning about
Speaker 2: the issues and even making visits on the ground.
Speaker 1: What advice are you giving your son?
Speaker 2: Keep going, keep doing what you're doing. He has always
Speaker 2: believed in women's rights. He also believes strongly in our democracy.
Speaker 2: And I learned from all three of my kids, but he,
Speaker 2: of the three of them, probably the most is the
Speaker 2: one that helps keep me educated sending me articles. Have
Speaker 2: you considered this? Think about this other point of view? Mom?
Speaker 2: I know this is your point of view, but think
Speaker 2: about this other one.
Speaker 1: Interesting, you voted for both Democratic and Republican candidates. You
Speaker 1: endorsed Kamala Harris for president, which I believe is the
Speaker 1: first time you've ever endorsed a presidential candidate. What do
Speaker 1: you hope happens between now and the next election, Like,
Speaker 1: is there a room of influential people somewhere trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how to empower the next generation of candidates.
Speaker 2: I hope that in the midterm elections and the elections
Speaker 2: that come after that four years from now, that we
Speaker 2: have a lot more female candidates and a lot more
Speaker 2: candidates the color because when you get women into state legislatures,
Speaker 2: when you get them into our Congress, when you get
Speaker 2: them into parliament, when you get people of color in
Speaker 2: those positions, they create different policy for society because of
Speaker 2: their lens on society. And so what I know is
Speaker 2: that we need more people in state houses. There's seven
Speaker 2: thousand seats at state houses, and we need more people
Speaker 2: in Congress that look like us.
Speaker 1: Women do things differently. As we've been discussing Mackenzie Scott,
Speaker 1: I'm curious what you think of her style of giving.
Speaker 1: She's known for this more sort of no strings attached approach,
Speaker 1: just give people money and see what they do with it,
Speaker 1: whereas the Gates Foundation has historically been more sort of
Speaker 1: data driven and strategic. What do you think of her
Speaker 1: style of giving.
Speaker 2: I think it's fantastic for her for where she is
Speaker 2: and what she wants to accomplish. She is living her
Speaker 2: values out in society. She writes about her values and
Speaker 2: then she lives her values through her giving. She's not
Speaker 2: just giving to any organization out there. She's giving to
Speaker 2: organization that she thinks are changing society and who are effective.
Speaker 2: And I think that's phenomenal good for her. I wish
Speaker 2: more people would put their money where their mouth is right.
Speaker 2: I mean, we look at billionaires today. They're incredibly privileged,
Speaker 2: just like I'm privileged. They should be giving more away,
Speaker 2: They should be more doing more with their own wealth
Speaker 2: to change society. If you are lucky enough to have
Speaker 2: started a company or been born in this country, you
Speaker 2: benefited from this country and you should be giving back.
Speaker 1: I know you're friends with her. I'm curious how she's
Speaker 1: influenced you. Did you reach out to her as you
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out how to leave your marriage
Speaker 1: and then the foundation.
Speaker 2: She is a very private person and she deserves to
Speaker 2: keep her privacy. But I will just say we had
Speaker 2: children when they were younger, in and out of the
Speaker 2: same school, and so we crossed paths during that time.
Speaker 2: And then I would say probably the last eight years
Speaker 2: we've formed even more of a friendship. She's had a
Speaker 2: little more time as some of her kids go off
Speaker 2: to college, so have I, and so we have just
Speaker 2: a really nice, candid, supportive friendship. And I'm so grateful
Speaker 2: for that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. I know that she's very private,
Speaker 1: you know, I think about this question because men are
Speaker 1: so well networked and seem to be helping each other
Speaker 1: all the time, and I want that for women too.
Speaker 1: Do you have relationships you know, is there like a
Speaker 1: group of power women chat with you and McKenzie and
Speaker 1: Lorraine and Priscilla, Like, do you trade notes? About how
Speaker 1: to navigate this life.
Speaker 2: Absolutely some of us definitely do, and those are conversations
Speaker 2: that are best left in private. But I've even in
Speaker 2: the last two years, especially after I saw what's happened
Speaker 2: to women's rights in this country, I've reached out to
Speaker 2: friends of friends that I never would have known before,
Speaker 2: even in Silicon Valley, and have gone and had a
Speaker 2: number of coffees and teas to try and get their
Speaker 2: perspective of what's going on, Where are you investing, how
Speaker 2: how are you thinking about our democracy? So that's been
Speaker 2: actually another growth point for me, even to do that
Speaker 2: reach out, but also to hear their ideas and what
Speaker 2: they're thinking about what they're funding, and then some of
Speaker 2: us will start to co invest together.
Speaker 1: You were high school valedictorian, You're the only woman in
Speaker 1: your class. At Microsoft, you impressed one of the smartest
Speaker 1: men in the world, and yet you still at times
Speaker 1: felt like an impostor. Is there something that you say
Speaker 1: to yourself to psych yourself up in the morning, because
Speaker 1: I want to say it with you because so many
Speaker 1: super successful women still feel that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we have to look at the root
Speaker 2: of why we feel that way. Society is constantly telling
Speaker 2: us otherwise. In so many places, we walk in and
Speaker 2: there's no one else like us, or you don't see
Speaker 2: somebody who's a role model ahead of you, or you
Speaker 2: are literally told you don't belong here, or you sit
Speaker 2: at a table and people all talk over you. Right.
Speaker 2: So society gives us these messages, and we do have
Speaker 2: to put back on them. So when I have doubt,
Speaker 2: I remind myself don't be quiet. If I start to
Speaker 2: feel like I want to be quiet, I have to
Speaker 2: think about what happened that made me feel that way,
Speaker 2: And remember that's often about somebody else, not about me.
Speaker 2: I was actually speaking with one of my daughters very
Speaker 2: recently on the phone who got harassed in public in
Speaker 2: front of a group of other people, really harassed and bullied,
Speaker 2: and her instinct was, in this particular group, I probably
Speaker 2: just won't speak up. And I said, m m m
Speaker 2: m m m mmm. Let's roll back, let's talk about
Speaker 2: what happened here, yet again, let's go through it. And
Speaker 2: then I said, you may or may not choose to
Speaker 2: speak up in that group, but make sure you don't
Speaker 2: fall back. That's what this person wants you to do.
Speaker 2: They're trying to silence, you lean forward and figure out
Speaker 2: where else to use your voice or how to take
Speaker 2: your anger about that situation and fuel something else, fuel
Speaker 2: your work.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much of the world defined you not based
Speaker 1: on who you are, but who you were married to.
Speaker 1: Did the pressure on Bill or Microsoft and you ever
Speaker 1: make you feel alone or stuck?
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't define myself that way, so I knew
Speaker 2: who I was, I knew how I was all along.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, there were times I felt pressure,
Speaker 2: but I think that was mostly maybe right after we
Speaker 2: got married, and certainly after Jen was born. And here
Speaker 2: I was, all of a sudden, living in this gigantic
Speaker 2: house that I didn't particularly like, behind a gate, and
Speaker 2: I realized, oh no, no, no, I need to really
Speaker 2: nurture my friendships because that is where I'm going to
Speaker 2: be able to make sure that I'm true to myself
Speaker 2: and who I am and if I am scared to
Speaker 2: use my voice or to speak out or I'm look.
Speaker 2: I was learning all new things, everything I learned at
Speaker 2: the Foundation. I don't have a background in global health
Speaker 2: or biology. I'm a computer scientist, so it was hard
Speaker 2: to sit in rooms of male scientists, all male scientists
Speaker 2: at times, but I could turn to my friends and
Speaker 2: they would remind me, no, no, no, no, you got this.
Speaker 2: You're smart enough to figure this out. Yeah, you were
Speaker 2: nervous last time, but you went here, you know. Or
Speaker 2: they would send me an encouraging word. And that's what
Speaker 2: I think friends do for one another, male and female.
Speaker 2: But I've particularly leaned on my female friends.
Speaker 1: I know the book is about the next day, getting
Speaker 1: to the next day, but sometimes you have to look
Speaker 1: back to be able to move forward. What was it
Speaker 1: that made you ultimately say I need to get out
Speaker 1: of this marriage.
Speaker 2: Yeah. The details about that will remain between Bill and
Speaker 2: me and our kids. That was a very painful time
Speaker 2: for all five of us, and I think it deserves
Speaker 2: privacy as many people who've gone through divorce. No, it's
Speaker 2: rarely one thing that happens. It's a series of things
Speaker 2: over time. And so the only reason I even wrote
Speaker 2: about that in the book was because people did know
Speaker 2: it was public that I had gone through, and I
Speaker 2: thought it would be disingenuous not to include something about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Bills out with his memoir now too, and
Speaker 1: he said that the dissolution of your marriage is his
Speaker 1: biggest regret what was your reaction to that.
Speaker 2: It is sad that the behavior that happened led to
Speaker 2: the dissolution of our marriage. It was the behavior, and
Speaker 2: you have to change your behavior to be able to
Speaker 2: be in a trusting intimate relationship. And if that can't
Speaker 2: happen over time and you've given many chances, then there
Speaker 2: are consequences.
Speaker 1: Right What about you, like, did you let go of
Speaker 1: any dreams along the way?
Speaker 2: Sure, the day I got married, I dreamt I was
Speaker 2: going to be married for my whole life. That is
Speaker 2: not That's not something you let go of easily. So
Speaker 2: I had to really think and feel through that decision.
Speaker 2: And again, I think many people who go through divorce
Speaker 2: don't expect on the day they get married that they
Speaker 2: will be divorced. It's a very sad thing. I wouldn't
Speaker 2: wish it on anybody. But the thing that I knew
Speaker 2: and that some people could hold out perspective for me,
Speaker 2: is I was going to be happier on the other side.
Speaker 2: It might take time and I would have to rebuild
Speaker 2: some things, but I am happy. And that's what I
Speaker 2: say about transitions in the book, is it's really important
Speaker 2: not to go from ending one thing a job, leaving
Speaker 2: college and just jump to the next thing. There are
Speaker 2: things to learn in that in between space, and I
Speaker 2: feel like I spent a lot of time in that
Speaker 2: in between space because there were lessons I wanted to
Speaker 2: learn and growth I could do myself.
Speaker 1: Right, Change is an interesting thing and learning is an
Speaker 1: interesting thing. Like would you have changed a thing when
Speaker 1: you look back, would you change a thing?
Speaker 2: I would have let go of perfectionism much earlier. I
Speaker 2: would have been more relaxed. I think for my kids
Speaker 2: it would have been easier at their younger years, So yeah,
Speaker 2: I would have changed that if I could.
Speaker 1: You know, you talked a little bit about how you
Speaker 1: broke up, you got put together, you broke up, you
Speaker 1: got back together. Like, how do you know for the
Speaker 1: people out there, men and women who feel stuck in
Speaker 1: a marriage, how do you know when it's too hard?
Speaker 1: How hard is too hard?
Speaker 2: I don't think I can answer that for other people.
Speaker 2: I think people have to find it in themselves and
Speaker 2: know what's right for them. Because our circumstances aren't all
Speaker 2: the same right, and different things happen in different marriages.
Speaker 2: We never ever know what really goes on inside somebody
Speaker 2: else's marriage that I know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the last question about this, but it's a
Speaker 1: good one. You didn't sign a prenup, which surprised me,
Speaker 1: and so you had to negotiate with someone who faced
Speaker 1: down the Justice Department. I feel like you learn a
Speaker 1: lot about someone in a negotiation. Who were you in
Speaker 1: that negotiation? What did you learn and did you get
Speaker 1: what you wanted?
Speaker 2: I learned to surround myself with great people, and I
Speaker 2: do that in my life. I do that in my work.
Speaker 2: And I surrounded myself with a team who had my back,
Speaker 2: and I learned a lot in the process. We'll just
Speaker 2: leave it there, Okay.
Speaker 1: When you worked at Microsoft, you had this project called
Speaker 1: Microsoft Bob. I wonder if it was ahead of its time, right,
Speaker 1: because it was software that would make computers easier to use.
Speaker 1: And now we're moving into this era of AI and
Speaker 1: agents doing everything for us. Like, what is life like
Speaker 1: in a world where AI agents do everything for us?
Speaker 2: Oh? Gosh, I think it's gonna help us learn more quickly,
Speaker 2: move through our days more efficiently. I mean, some of
Speaker 2: those early concepts in Bob are actually starting to come
Speaker 2: to fruition now. So the thing that people always like
Speaker 2: to make fun of is Clippy. You know Clippy?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 2: Yes, oh remember Clippy. Yes. Clippy actually was one of
Speaker 2: the early agents that came up in Publisher and then Bob.
Speaker 2: So while Publisher was a success, while Bob was not
Speaker 2: because we didn't have enough compute power, the idea of
Speaker 2: an agent was really there. And those are some of
Speaker 2: the concepts I see taking off now. While that one
Speaker 2: happened to be particularly annoying, although it has a fan
Speaker 2: base on the other side, I understand. But that concept
Speaker 2: that you didn't have to start, I mean, we used
Speaker 2: to sit down at a computer and graphical using interface
Speaker 2: was a blank piece of paper. Before that, it was
Speaker 2: a blank screen when you sat down at your word processor,
Speaker 2: whereas now you know you start with form. Well, now
Speaker 2: you talk to your AI agent about okay, help me
Speaker 2: write a resume. Here are the ten things I want
Speaker 2: to put in it, and it formulates it. You help
Speaker 2: it reformulate it asks you questions. You ask it questions,
Speaker 2: and you know, you're so much more efficient than starting
Speaker 2: with a blank piece of paper to write your resume.
Speaker 2: I don't know about you, but I remember doing that.
Speaker 2: It was a big, daunting task.
Speaker 1: But so how does life change dat we're all going
Speaker 1: to have our own personal AIS.
Speaker 2: I think someday we will mm hmm, yeah, And I
Speaker 2: think personal is the key thing. It needs to be
Speaker 2: personal to us and our data doesn't need to be
Speaker 2: shared with everybody else.
Speaker 1: What's your advice to kids today? Should they still learn
Speaker 1: how to code? Or will AI do everything for us?
Speaker 2: Well? I think AI is going to do a fair
Speaker 2: bit going forward. But I still think there's value in
Speaker 2: learning to code. Like, I don't know about you, but
Speaker 2: I still learned to tell the time even though we
Speaker 2: were in a digital age, right, I think there's absolutely
Speaker 2: value and there's creativity in coding as well, and for
Speaker 2: your own mind, you're learning logic, right, So I definitely
Speaker 2: tell kids it's still a great place to go.
Speaker 1: Women aren't only represented in the people who are building AI,
Speaker 1: they're underrepresented in the people who are using AI. What
Speaker 1: are the consequences of that?
Speaker 2: They'll get left behind in certain ways in society. I
Speaker 2: don't know. My female friends and I are all using AI.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's kind of like, why wouldn't I use AI?
Speaker 2: In fact, we joke about the fact. One of my
Speaker 2: friends and I were joking we're on a walk yesterday
Speaker 2: with two other friends and this one friend and I
Speaker 2: worked at Microsoft, and it was like, so, what version
Speaker 2: are you on of chat GPT? We are just trying
Speaker 2: to stay up with the leading edge so that we
Speaker 2: aren't left behind in society. I'm sixty years old, but
Speaker 2: anyone come up in society ought to be using AI.
Speaker 2: Students ought to be using AI. They will learn more
Speaker 2: deeply and better. One of the things I love about
Speaker 2: AI is that explains the concepts to you. It's not
Speaker 2: just giving you the answer, You're learning the concepts.
Speaker 1: I'm using it all day, every day, so I hope
Speaker 1: it doesn't make me stupider because I'm like, really need
Speaker 1: it right now. I think it makes me more productive.
Speaker 1: That's where I've met it.
Speaker 2: I think it makes you more productive. But also I
Speaker 2: don't know about you, but I'm asking it all the
Speaker 2: time questions about nature and society. I go to a
Speaker 2: low income country and I can immediately learn where does
Speaker 2: their GDP come from? What are the income streams, what
Speaker 2: are the outflows, what's the population? I can compare countries.
Speaker 2: When I used to travel to so many places in Africa,
Speaker 2: I used to have to take a piece of paper
Speaker 2: and somebody had to put those stats together for me beforehand.
Speaker 2: Now I just ask Chad Gpt.
Speaker 1: What do you make of the tech billionaires lining up
Speaker 1: behind President Trump and Silicon Valley's right turn.
Speaker 2: I think there are there's certainly reasons that that has happened.
Speaker 2: But all I can say is I'm not going to
Speaker 2: comment on other people's values, but I will say this
Speaker 2: that in these times, I always believe we should live
Speaker 2: our own values, and that it's important to speak our
Speaker 2: truth and our own values in society. And yet what
Speaker 2: I have seen in the last six months to a
Speaker 2: year is many people who used to say one thing
Speaker 2: have absolutely shifted over here. And so I say to myself, well,
Speaker 2: what are their values? Right? And look, a democracy is
Speaker 2: made up by our beliefs and our investments and our values,
Speaker 2: and we, of all times right now should be living
Speaker 2: those values out, not pivoting to what some comms person
Speaker 2: tells us is the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: The Make Men Great Again movement? What's your take on that.
Speaker 2: I don't ever like anything that pitts women versus men,
Speaker 2: or men versus women. That's not healthy for society. The
Speaker 2: truth is there are many great men in society, and
Speaker 2: there are many great women in society. We need to
Speaker 2: support both so that they both get to where they
Speaker 2: want to be in society and can thrive. We are
Speaker 2: seeing more girls graduate from college, so we do need
Speaker 2: to be making more investments in boys. We also need
Speaker 2: to be looking at why are young boys saying I
Speaker 2: don't know what my future role is in society. I
Speaker 2: look at the mental health statistics for girls and boys,
Speaker 2: and I say, Wow, there's a lot of work to do.
Speaker 2: So there's just no reason to pit one against the other.
Speaker 1: Elon Musk and Doge, how do you feel about one man,
Speaker 1: a billionaire, having that much independent power within the federal government.
Speaker 2: Well, it's unprecedented, for sure. We haven't seen it before, right,
Speaker 2: and again, I can speak at great length about USAID
Speaker 2: and the work they have done in the world that
Speaker 2: keeps peace and prosperity in the world. And so to
Speaker 2: have anyone come in and say, you know, we're just
Speaker 2: gonna wipe it out like that, that makes no sense
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: I have three boys and a girl. Yeah, which we
Speaker 1: talked about. We talked about responsibilities to our daughters and
Speaker 1: to our sons. There's a generation of boys coming up
Speaker 1: that statistics show are less likely to go to college,
Speaker 1: are more likely to feel alone, feel their opportunities are
Speaker 1: slipping away. What do you think is going on there
Speaker 1: and what can we do about it?
Speaker 2: Well? I think we need to make investments in those boys.
Speaker 2: They need more role models. It can be a good coach,
Speaker 2: it can be a teacher at school if there's no
Speaker 2: dad in the home. If there is a dad, great,
Speaker 2: But we need to come together and really deeply understand
Speaker 2: what's going on with our boys. There's been some good
Speaker 2: research on this, but further I think needs to be done.
Speaker 2: But people like Richard Reeves or Gary Barker, they are
Speaker 2: coming up with ways to support boys so that they
Speaker 2: can figure out good roles through society, ways that they
Speaker 2: want to be in society.
Speaker 1: I mean, I appreciate that you're still speaking up about women.
Speaker 1: You know, as we talked about I wrote a book
Speaker 1: called Protopia back in the day. It does seem like
Speaker 1: the conversation about women making strides has gone very quiet.
Speaker 1: I wish there was just something that we could all
Speaker 1: get behind together. Why do you think that is? Are
Speaker 1: we scared? Is it cancel culture? What happened to our voices?
Speaker 2: I don't think the voices are gone. But sometimes when
Speaker 2: you are strategizing and you're figuring out where you go next,
Speaker 2: like geopolitically, things have changed massively in the last few months, massively,
Speaker 2: So how we strategize and where we make investments and
Speaker 2: where we use our voices? Just give a little time.
Speaker 2: I hope you're right. I hope you're right. The best
Speaker 2: answer is not always the quickest answer. Yeah right, I mean,
Speaker 2: look at the work no Elson Mandelatid. Look how long
Speaker 2: that took. It took a very long time, but the
Speaker 2: resistance was there all the way through, and eventually it
Speaker 2: came to fruition. So it's not always first mover or
Speaker 2: first speaker that has the advantage. Sometimes it's the person
Speaker 2: who quietly strategizes.
Speaker 1: Well, let's take a look at the quick answer, the
Speaker 1: pullback of DEI, the rollback of DEI. How's that going
Speaker 1: to be written in the history books?
Speaker 2: Not favorably. I do not think favorly. Again, you have
Speaker 2: to look at society. Who's in society right now? And
Speaker 2: does our democracy, do our state legislatures and does our
Speaker 2: Senate and does our Congress look like society? And the
Speaker 2: answer is no, we don't have enough Native Americans Asians,
Speaker 2: Black people, we don't have enough women, so we have
Speaker 2: to all be pushing to make sure that we have
Speaker 2: good representation in all of those places and culture. So
Speaker 2: the stories that we tell the movies, we know that
Speaker 2: affects people. And the reason you need to have all
Speaker 2: of society represented in the legislature, in any governing body
Speaker 2: is because they make good policy based on their lived experience.
Speaker 1: You recently turned sixty. Yeah, mommy at sixty, grandmommy at sixty.
Speaker 2: What's that like? It's a joy, you know, as my
Speaker 2: adult children are truly adults now, they need you less
Speaker 2: or they need me less. So I certainly talk to them,
Speaker 2: I certainly see them, but you know, there's way less
Speaker 2: of the day to day that doesn't exist anymore, so
Speaker 2: it gives me more time. And then my granddaughters are
Speaker 2: on the other side of the country, but I try
Speaker 2: to see them every six weeks. And it is absolutely
Speaker 2: delightful to have little ones again that you can run
Speaker 2: around the yard with, go down the slide, even when
Speaker 2: you don't think you want to go down the slide,
Speaker 2: you know, get on the outdoor trampoline. It's a delight
Speaker 2: dating it.
Speaker 1: What's that like?
Speaker 2: Fabulous? Much better than I thought, much better. Good.
Speaker 1: You should be enjoying yourself. People love hearing about the
Speaker 1: habits of great leaders. What's one of your daily rituals
Speaker 1: or a habit that helps you be a great leader?
Speaker 2: Well, I often try to do something somewhat difficult in
Speaker 2: the morning. So whether that's in the gym via exercise,
Speaker 2: or whether I've been going in the cold plunge now
Speaker 2: for almost a decade and how long can you go
Speaker 2: and stay in it? If you've done something hard in
Speaker 2: the morning, it tends to make the rest of your
Speaker 2: day feel, at least for me, less hard. And then
Speaker 2: the other thing I would say is just I really
Speaker 2: work and have worked in the last twenty years to
Speaker 2: surround myself with people who will tell me the truth,
Speaker 2: be candid even when I may not want to hear it.
Speaker 2: But also just are good people. Smart people for sure.
Speaker 2: I like high intellect, high IQ, but just good values
Speaker 2: and it just makes everything easier. You know, you build
Speaker 2: trust over time. You can count on people, they can
Speaker 2: rely on you, you can rely on them. I can
Speaker 2: be more vulnerable with them, which is nice because you know,
Speaker 2: not every day is a fabulous day, right, And so
Speaker 2: sometimes you come in a little cranky and you kind
Speaker 2: of just need to say that to people around, like,
Speaker 2: give me a little grace today because I may not
Speaker 2: be my best.
Speaker 1: Melinda Frenchgates three point zero. What is the next chapter
Speaker 1: that hasn't been written?
Speaker 2: Who knows? I am so excited. I mean, I think,
Speaker 2: certainly at least another decade of work, you know, making
Speaker 2: sure that women step into their full power. I hope
Speaker 2: more grandkids, but I don't want to put any pressure
Speaker 2: on my kids. And then we'll see from there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what do you want from the next decade?
Speaker 2: Like for you, I just want to live my life
Speaker 2: the way I'm living it right now, which is I'm happy.
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm flourishing. I feel like my family
Speaker 2: and friends know that I love them, I know they
Speaker 2: love me, and I just want a whole lot more
Speaker 2: of that. I love that.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Oh my gosh, there were so many times
Speaker 1: when you're speaking that I honestly I welled up because
Speaker 1: I feel like I feel like women have been silent
Speaker 1: and I am really grateful, honestly liked that you are
Speaker 1: speaking up.
Speaker 2: Use your voice to thank you.
Speaker 1: I will try.
Speaker 2: I will try.
Speaker 1: It's hard.
Speaker 2: It is hard to use your woe. All have to
Speaker 2: use our voice and our platforms and our resources, any
Speaker 2: of those three or all of them, whatever we've got,
Speaker 2: it's going to take all of us and like minded men.
Speaker 2: There's so many great like minded men, and so it's
Speaker 2: just like, just because the loudest voices are trying to
Speaker 2: silence us, we should not be silent for exactly that reason.
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for speaking up and for using your voice.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thanks Emily, Thanks so much for listening to
Speaker 1: this edition of the Circuit. You can catch the full
Speaker 1: episode on Bloomberg Originals. I'm Emily Chang, follow me on
Speaker 1: x and Instagram at Emily Chang TV. And you can
Speaker 1: watch new episodes of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or
Speaker 1: streaming on the Bloomberg Gap or YouTube and let us
Speaker 1: know what you think by leaving a review. Those extra reviews,
Speaker 1: they really make a difference. I'm your host and executive producer.
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Lauren Ellis. Our associate producer is
Speaker 1: Heather Glover Huang. Our editor is Alison Casey. Thanks so
Speaker 1: much for listening.