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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: What's warring my crimes? This is it could happen here

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Speaker 2: a podcast about things falling apart? And you know what

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Speaker 2: all the kids these days you're talking about is war crimes.

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Speaker 2: That was me being kind of blithe, but they actually are,

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Speaker 2: because you know what's continuing to happen to Gaza. More

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Speaker 2: people than probably that I can recall in recent memory

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Speaker 2: are talking about like war crimes, what it means to

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Speaker 2: commit war crimes violations of international law, which is good

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Speaker 2: because that's an important thing to be talking about. The

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Speaker 2: downside of it is, as is often the case when

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Speaker 2: people talk about things on the Internet, a lot of

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Speaker 2: people are talking about war crimes and don't actually know

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Speaker 2: what that means. So I figured, let's talk about like

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Speaker 2: what war crimes is be do. And I'm going to

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Speaker 2: bring on James Stout, fellow war crimes watcher, to talk

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Speaker 2: with me about what war crimes be James, what's your

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Speaker 2: favorite war crime?

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Speaker 3: My favorite? That's a difficult one, isn't it? Because I'm yeah,

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Speaker 3: because I.

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Speaker 2: Asked in the best season a doctor who you know

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Speaker 2: it is?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. What I like to do with reference to war

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Speaker 3: crimes is I wake up right and I sort of

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Speaker 3: you know, you're just waking up, you get your phone

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Speaker 3: off the charge, you there, and then you look and

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Speaker 3: there's a message on telegram. But that's how that's how

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Speaker 3: I consume war crimes, just a random.

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Speaker 2: If it's on telegram, there's a forty percent chance it's

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Speaker 2: a violation of the eighteen sixty four Geneva Convention or

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Speaker 2: the subsequent Geneva Conventions. Yes, so I wanted to do

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Speaker 2: this because I do think that one of the things

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Speaker 2: that is unfortunate kind of about the colloquial way in which,

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Speaker 2: like the positive side of the way social media has

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Speaker 2: impacted the coverage of conflicts is that we are now

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Speaker 2: seeing like, for the first time, this is not the

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Speaker 2: first time Israel has killed a shitload of Palestinians. This

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Speaker 2: is the first time that like a really substantial majority

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Speaker 2: of the American populace has been like and that's bad, yea.

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Speaker 2: And that owes a lot to the way in which

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Speaker 2: information is bread on social media. One of the downsides

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Speaker 2: of that is because this is happening in kind of

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Speaker 2: a colloquial diction, people are not always super accurate, and

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Speaker 2: a term like war crimes in particular often gets used

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Speaker 2: to mean like anything I don't like that happens in

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Speaker 2: a war, And there are a lot of things that

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Speaker 2: happen like war is bad, and everything that happens in

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Speaker 2: war nearly everything is really bad. But most of the

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Speaker 2: things that happen in war are not war crimes. And

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Speaker 2: I believe me, I'm not setting us up to say that,

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Speaker 2: like Israel is not committing war crimes in Gaza. They are.

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Speaker 2: I actually have a lot of issues with other kinds

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Speaker 2: of conflicts and things that happen in conflicts that get

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Speaker 2: discussed as if they were war crimes that I think

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Speaker 2: Muddy's the issue. We're going to be talking trying to

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Speaker 2: make it clear like what international law actually covers and

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Speaker 2: what kind of that coverage means and all that stuff,

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Speaker 2: so that hopefully, you know, people can have a little

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Speaker 2: bit more information going forward when they try to about

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Speaker 2: like is this something that's just bad that happens in

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Speaker 2: war versus is this a war crime, because that actually

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Speaker 2: matters when it comes to, you know, the theoretical idea

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Speaker 2: of a rules based international order in prosecuting this stuff.

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Speaker 2: So the first thing we have to get into is

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Speaker 2: the idea that like war crimes are a pretty recent conception.

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Speaker 2: The idea that like there would be a thing that

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Speaker 2: you could do as a country that the international community

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Speaker 2: would come in and have beef with does not go

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Speaker 2: back very far. Right, Yeah, we are talking the eighteenth century,

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Speaker 2: so really the last two hundred years has been when

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Speaker 2: this really all started to get codified. We start with

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Speaker 2: the Geneva Convention in eighteen sixty four. There are several

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Speaker 2: Geneva conventions in nineteen forty nine, and there's I think

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Speaker 2: two more in nineteen seventy seven. You also have the

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Speaker 2: Hague Conventions in eighteen ninety nine and nineteen oh seven,

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Speaker 2: and these are all so part of what that should

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Speaker 2: suggest is that like, even within the kind of the

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Speaker 2: realm of codified war crimes law, it's kind of been

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Speaker 2: a slap dash, catches catch can a fair right. Like

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Speaker 2: people have come together and made rules that were largely

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Speaker 2: based on the shit that either had just happened or

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Speaker 2: that they thought was about to happen. And one of

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Speaker 2: the consequences of this is that the actual legislation about

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Speaker 2: like what is and isn't illegal to do in war

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Speaker 2: is really uneven. A great example of this would be

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Speaker 2: the idea of dumb, dumb bullets. Right. This is a

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Speaker 2: thing that you get kind of around the turn of

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Speaker 2: the century, which is so bullets, most bullets that are

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Speaker 2: used in war are what are called full metal jacket, right,

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Speaker 2: And that just means that there's a copper generally jacket

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Speaker 2: around the lead bullet and there's not like a hole

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Speaker 2: in the middle or whatever like a modern Like if

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Speaker 2: you go up to a police officer and take his gun,

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Speaker 2: which is very easy and safe to do legally, that

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Speaker 2: was a joke, you will notice that all of the

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Speaker 2: bullets in that gun have like a little divot in

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Speaker 2: the middle of them, right. And the purpose of divot

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Speaker 2: is so that when the bullet hits a person, it

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Speaker 2: transfers more of its force into the meat of that

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Speaker 2: person's body. This is the same with any bullet that

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Speaker 2: like someone carries for self defense generally, and this is

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Speaker 2: actually a safety device in a way, because bullets like

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Speaker 2: this do not penetrate as much, and you don't want

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Speaker 2: bullets that you're using in like an urban area for

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Speaker 2: self defense to penetrate as much because that increases the

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Speaker 2: risk that if you miss or if you hit that person,

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Speaker 2: that it goes through them and hits something else, right,

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Speaker 2: But there was an understanding around the turn of the

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Speaker 2: century that these bullets, which initially were not manufactured. Soldiers

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Speaker 2: would literally like cut like crosses in the tops of

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Speaker 2: their bullets.

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Speaker 3: I used to do this when I was a child.

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Speaker 3: I would spend a lot of time shooting rabbits. It

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Speaker 3: was kind of my thing that I did when I

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Speaker 3: was a kid, and we used to dumb dumb that

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Speaker 3: rifle pede.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And there's this there was this understanding that developed

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Speaker 2: that this should be illegal because it causes additional harm. Now,

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Speaker 2: the specific I think this is like like line twenty

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Speaker 2: or something from the Geneva Convention. But it's employing weapons,

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Speaker 2: projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of

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Speaker 2: a nature to cause superfluous injury or a necessary suffering,

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Speaker 2: or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the International

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Speaker 2: Law of Armed Conflict. Provided such weapons, projectiles and material

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Speaker 2: and the methods of warfare are the subject of a

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Speaker 2: comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this

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Speaker 2: Statute by an amendment in accordance with the relevant anyway,

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Speaker 2: so you're not supposed to employing employ bullets which quote

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Speaker 2: flatten or expand easily in the human body, such as

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Speaker 2: bullets with the hard envelope which does not entirely cover

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Speaker 2: its core or is pierced with incisions. You're not supposed

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Speaker 2: to employ asphyxiating, poisonous or their gases and all analogous liquids, materials,

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Speaker 2: or devices that one obviously came about as a result

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Speaker 2: of the horror in World War One, right, people start

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Speaker 2: using a lot of these poisoned gas weapons, and it's

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Speaker 2: decided by the international community that that absolutely should not

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Speaker 2: be allowed to be done. You're not allowed to employ

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Speaker 2: poison or poisoned weapons. Now most people can see look

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Speaker 2: at at and be like, well, yeah, I mean, hollow

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Speaker 2: points sound extra meine. Poison sounds extramine. Gas sounds extra meine.

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Speaker 2: You shouldn't be able to use those extra mean weapons

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Speaker 2: in war. But and I don't have a problem with

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Speaker 2: trying to limit horrifying weapons. But we still allow, for example,

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Speaker 2: artillery shells that are meant to create huge amounts of

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Speaker 2: shrapnel that are their whole purpose is to cause grievous

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Speaker 2: wounds to a large number of people in a large area.

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Speaker 2: And from where I'm standing I don't think that like

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Speaker 2: that's less horrible than a hollow point. I actually think

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Speaker 2: that's probably a lot worse than a hollow point. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: So one of the first things that you get when

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Speaker 2: you look at what our war crimes is they're not

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Speaker 2: actually all like things that you morally should have an

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Speaker 2: issue with. Like, really, if you are looking at all

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Speaker 2: of the weapons employed in war today, there's no reason

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Speaker 2: a hollow point should frighten you, Right, there's so many

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Speaker 2: worse weapons right now. On the other hand of that,

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Speaker 2: poison gas is much worse than the vast majority of

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Speaker 2: weapons that are used in war today, and I think

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Speaker 2: it's good that that's a crime.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, doesn't stop people using it, It.

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Speaker 2: Doesn't stop like Bashar al Asade, right.

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Speaker 3: Friend of the show. I was just thinking about barrel bombs.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know if barrel bombs are specifically prohibited, and don't

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Speaker 3: think they are not. There would be a way to

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Speaker 3: do that, really, that just a barrel stuff with explosion.

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Speaker 2: Well, because I mean they were invented by Israel. Actually,

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Speaker 2: I think forty seven is the first use. It might

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Speaker 2: have been like fifty, yeah, but I believe it was

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Speaker 2: forty seven was the first recorded use of Because if

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Speaker 2: you have planes and you have reliable access to planes,

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Speaker 2: but you know, can't reliably manufacture advanced like rockets and

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Speaker 2: shit to shoot from them, a barrel bomb's very easy

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Speaker 2: to make. You're basically just taking a fifty gallon drum

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Speaker 2: and filling it with gunpowder and shrapnel, right, Like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's a little more complicated than that, but yea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the Huntern Memba have started using them as sair

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Speaker 3: access to Russia munitions drives up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's you know, again that's one of those

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Speaker 2: things where it's like that's not technically a war crime

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Speaker 2: other than that if you it can be if you're

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Speaker 2: like using it indiscriminately in a civilian like against civilians.

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Speaker 2: But like also they basically no one ever gets prosecuted

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Speaker 2: for doing that, so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, right, this is the case with many of

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Speaker 3: these things.

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Speaker 2: And again, like barrel bombs can be legal, holow points can't.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't really make sense. It's also like I will say,

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Speaker 2: I've witnessed at least one war crime in person that

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Speaker 2: I really didn't feel like was a war crime, which

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Speaker 2: when I was embedded with the Iraqi Army, they tear

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Speaker 2: gassed an ISIS sniper to get him out of his

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Speaker 2: position so they could kill him, and that's definitely illegal.

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Speaker 2: And also of all of the things I saw done

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Speaker 2: in that war, like the fact that somebody threw a

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Speaker 2: tear gas grenade did not upset me over much, right,

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Speaker 2: Like the fact that I was watching apartment buildings get

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Speaker 2: blown up by Apache helicopters really upset me a lot

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Speaker 2: more than a little bit of tear gas.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of these like very sort of like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: if you want to take the strict legalistic definition, yeah,

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Speaker 3: that was a war crime. Yeah, a crime that was

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Speaker 3: committed that day maybe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So anyway, I want to get into some of

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Speaker 2: this in a little bit more of an organized fashion,

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Speaker 2: But first let's let's have a little bit of an

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Speaker 2: ad break. Ah. So we're back and we're talking about

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Speaker 2: war crimes. So I want to just kind of go

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Speaker 2: through and with some commentary. Straight up, Lee read a

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Speaker 2: large chunk of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court,

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Speaker 2: Article eight, which largely defines war crimes as that term

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Speaker 2: has a meaning in a legal sense, and it defines

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Speaker 2: war crimes as grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of

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Speaker 2: twelfth August nineteen forty nine, namely any of the following

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Speaker 2: acts against persons or property committed against the provisions of

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Speaker 2: the relevant Geneva Convention. These include wilful killing, torture or

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Speaker 2: inhuman treatment, including biological experiments, wilfully causing great suffering, serious

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Speaker 2: injury to body or health, extensive destruction and appropriation of

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Speaker 2: property not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully

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Speaker 2: and wantonly, compelling a prisoner of war or other protected

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Speaker 2: person to serve in the forces of a hostile power,

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Speaker 2: Willfully depriving a prisoner of war or their protected person

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Speaker 2: of the rights of fair and regular trial, unlawful deportation

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Speaker 2: or transfer, or unlawful confinement and taking of hostages.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: And you'll notice, among other things, a lot of that

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Speaker 2: is stuff that you can find Israeli soldiers doing at TikTok, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, streaming themselves doing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean particularly the clear not maybe not the clearest,

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Speaker 2: but one that comes up to me just because of

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Speaker 2: some stuff I've seen of like soldiers posing with like

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Speaker 2: stolen canes from gosms who presumably were disabled and no

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Speaker 2: longer have their canes for whatever. Terrible reason like these

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Speaker 2: kind of like joking photos. That's a destruction and appropriation

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Speaker 2: of property. Right, You have a lot of videos of

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Speaker 2: soldiers like going through people's property, taking stuff, destroying stuff

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Speaker 2: like those are war crimes you are not as a soldier. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: property will get destroyed in gunfights. It can get to like,

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Speaker 2: so there's part of why it's kind of hard to

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Speaker 2: this stuff is not prosecuted as much as it ought

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Speaker 2: to be. But you are not supposed to just fuck

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Speaker 2: with people shit as a soldier. That is legal, you know.

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Speaker 2: Is it one of the war crimes that is probably

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Speaker 2: least prosecuted and most common. Absolutely, I think that that

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Speaker 2: is very fair to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, look, Boris Johnson stoles stuff from Saddam U Sin's

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Speaker 3: palace in right, you know, like he's yet to be

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Speaker 3: called today, and that.

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Speaker 2: Would be one of those Like I don't know, I

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Speaker 2: don't like Boris Johnson, but also I don't have a

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Speaker 2: problem with anyone stealing from Saddam Husse exactly specifically.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, of all the bullshit he's done, but.

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Speaker 2: This is I mean, that's one of those. Because I

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Speaker 2: would say a lot of soldiers I know who have

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Speaker 2: been and maybe didn't even realize themselves that what they

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Speaker 2: were doing was committing a war crime. But just like

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Speaker 2: you're in somebody's house, they are gone, they ran, and

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Speaker 2: like you wind up fucking with shit like it happens.

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Speaker 2: I think what we're seeing, I think willfully is kind

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Speaker 2: of an important term here, right, And I think that's

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Speaker 2: really what we've seen very clearly in a lot of

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Speaker 2: these IDF tiktoks, right, is people taking glee in the

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Speaker 2: destruction of property. And I think that's very easy to

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Speaker 2: prove as a war crime.

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Speaker 3: I think anyone can make a moral distinction right between

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Speaker 3: Like I was recently in Rajava and I was talking

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Speaker 3: to some friends and they were talking about how they

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Speaker 3: a lot of people died in ied blasts because they

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Speaker 3: were going into buildings to try and get food or tea, right, sugar, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: there's a distinction between going into the kitchen of abandoned

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Speaker 3: building and taking some sugar or whatever rice.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: Then yeah, these guys going through women's underwear drawers taking

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Speaker 3: pictures with their underwear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know some some US Marines who like

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Speaker 2: happened upon a cigarette factory during the invasion. I had,

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Speaker 2: like the uncut cigarettes that are like five feet long

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Speaker 2: and they just started like smoking up on them. I

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Speaker 2: guess that's destruction of property. Probably not going to be

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Speaker 2: my priority as the ic Z, but it also doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem like the clearer stuff is their priority. So I

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Speaker 2: don't know.

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Speaker 3: Free my man with the five foot cigarette he did?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So other war crimes include intentionally directing attacks

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Speaker 2: against the civilian population as such, or against individual civilians

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Speaker 2: not taking part in hostilities. There's a video going around

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Speaker 2: right now, man in his fifties in Gaza who was

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Speaker 2: working a market stall and was shot by an Israeli drone,

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Speaker 2: just executed. There's no way to describe that other than

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Speaker 2: intentionally directing an attack against a civilian not taking direct

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Speaker 2: part in hostilities. That is a war crime. That's one

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Speaker 2: example of I mean, that's just the clearest video that

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Speaker 2: I saw recently, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I heard from people who listen. I think I

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Speaker 3: think this was in the episode, but when we talk

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Speaker 3: to our friends at PK Guy that they were talking

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Speaker 3: about one of the members of their group was recovering

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Speaker 3: bodies from a bombed building and was shot by a

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Speaker 3: quad coptail, not like a drone, like ten thousand feet

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Speaker 3: in the air dropping a missile like a drone. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like in the air firing.

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Speaker 2: A drone like you can buy at a fucking best

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Speaker 2: Buy that's been modified.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that shoots like it shoots a rifle, like just

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Speaker 3: like a soldiers shooting rifle, where the operator is looking

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Speaker 3: and seeing that and pressing a button to fire bullet.

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Speaker 3: It's not collateral damage. It's deliberate civilians.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely continue from that list of war crimes

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Speaker 2: intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which

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Speaker 2: are not military objectives. A great example of this that's

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Speaker 2: been happening in Gaza in particular is destruction of mosques, right,

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Speaker 2: very clear, civilian objects. Now there are exceptions. For example,

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Speaker 2: one thing that does sometimes happen. I don't think it happened.

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Speaker 2: It certainly have not seen evidence of it happening often

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Speaker 2: in most of the places where there are attacks on mosques,

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Speaker 2: but like periodically, like if somebody, if if a fighter

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Speaker 2: or a military unit sets up inside a mosque or right,

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Speaker 2: or a church or whatever, which happened in World War

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Speaker 2: two a lot, Right, you would have like churches used

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Speaker 2: as strong points because they're well made buildings. You can

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Speaker 2: attack that, right, like the It's not like magical, right,

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Speaker 2: Like you can't suddenly not attack soldiers who are shooting

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Speaker 2: at you from a church, but you are not supposed

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Speaker 2: to intentionally direct attacks against civilian objects that are not

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Speaker 2: military objectives. Intentionally directing attacks against personnel installations, materiel units,

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Speaker 2: or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission

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Speaker 2: in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as

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Speaker 2: long as they are entitled to the protection given to

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Speaker 2: civilians or civilian objects under international law of armed conflict.

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Speaker 2: Best example of this from Gaza recently would be those

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Speaker 2: World Kitchen employees and their bodyguards who were essentially murdered

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Speaker 2: by the Israelis. Right, very clear internationally recognized humanitarian assistance,

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Speaker 2: very clear war crime if you can prove it was intentional.

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Speaker 2: I'm sure there's you know, that's a court case, right,

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Speaker 2: but I think pretty clear. And then there is intentionally

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Speaker 2: launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will

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Speaker 2: cause instident a loss of life or injury to civilians,

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Speaker 2: or damage to civilian objects, or widespread, long term and

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Speaker 2: severe damage to the natural environment, which would be clearly

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Speaker 2: excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military

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Speaker 2: advantage and dissipated. This is one of the top things

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Speaker 2: that is a war crime never gets punished because it

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Speaker 2: is so hard, because that it seemed like most I

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Speaker 2: would say, most of what I have seen planes do

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Speaker 2: in war seems like it falls under this where it's like, wow,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of environmental damage, a lot of incidental

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Speaker 2: loss of life and injury, But is it excessive in

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Speaker 2: relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage. Well,

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Speaker 2: the people ordering those air strikes would say no, right,

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Speaker 2: and like right, yeah, And that is one of those

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Speaker 2: things where it's like, well, I know what looks like

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Speaker 2: crime to me. Yeah, But could I win an ICC

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Speaker 2: case about that? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I want to actually move over to talk about Ukraine

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Speaker 2: here because I think that that number one doesn't happen

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Speaker 2: enough on the left, and I think there's really good,

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Speaker 2: clear examples of Russian war crimes here, because one thing

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Speaker 2: that you're not allowed to do is quote, attacking or

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Speaker 2: bombarding by whatever means towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which

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Speaker 2: are undefended and which are not military objectives. And both

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Speaker 2: of those last two points make it very clear that

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Speaker 2: the Russian military committed war crimes against Ukraine from March

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Speaker 2: fourth to March thirty five, twenty twenty two, when they

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Speaker 2: occupied the town of Buka, which was about it is

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Speaker 2: about thirty kilometers north of Kiv. This is one of

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Speaker 2: the best, probably the best documented Russian war crime in

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Speaker 2: Ukraine at the moment. And I'm not saying that this

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Speaker 2: is only it's not nearly the only. It's just like

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Speaker 2: a particularly well documented example. As of this point, you know,

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Speaker 2: we're almost two years past when Buka got liberated. The

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Speaker 2: bodies of more than a thousand civilians have been discovered

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Speaker 2: in the Buka region. At least about six hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty people are known to have been executed by the

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Speaker 2: Russian army, and these are pretty hideous mass executions. A

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Speaker 2: lot of people were held for a week or two

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Speaker 2: prior to being executed. There's significant evidence of torture of

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Speaker 2: beatings of civilians before their summary execution. And yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: like it's a very clear example of a war crime.

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Speaker 2: Like I don't know how else to say it. I

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Speaker 2: will read a quote from this Human Rights Watch article

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Speaker 2: that interviewed some funeral home workers in Bukka. Another funeral

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Speaker 2: homeworker Sergei Makyuk, who helped collect bodies, said that he

386
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Speaker 2: personally collected about two hundred bodies from the streets since

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Speaker 2: the Russian invasion began on February twenty fourth. Most of

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Speaker 2: the victims were men, he said, but some were women

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Speaker 2: and children. Almost all of them had bullet wounds, he said,

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Speaker 2: including around fifty whose hands were tied and whose bodies

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Speaker 2: had signs of torture. Bodies with hands tied strongly suggest

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Speaker 2: that the victims had been detained and summarily executed. And

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Speaker 2: that's a I mean a thousand pitce a hideous war crime,

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Speaker 2: right Like, that's a mass killing of civilians in a

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Speaker 2: crucially there's no argument and one way in which civilians

396
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Speaker 2: always die are killed in war, and it's not usually

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Speaker 2: a war crime because it generally happens while there's gun

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Speaker 2: fights going on, while you're carrying and you can claim like, well, look,

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Speaker 2: you know, you can't stop bullets from going through buildings,

400
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Speaker 2: you can't stop people from getting hit by a shrapnel.

401
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Speaker 2: You're fighting in a city, Civilians are going to die.

402
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Speaker 2: This is a very clear case of this town was occupied,

403
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Speaker 2: there was not resistance ongoing in it, and they were

404
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Speaker 2: mass executing civilians. That's illegal. You're not allowed to do

405
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:09,040
Speaker 2: that theoretically, if international law means anything. Now, I do

406
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Speaker 2: want to get to another case of a war crime,

407
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,800
Speaker 2: that or a thing that people call a war crime

408
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 2: that isn't a war crime. And this we're actually going

409
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Speaker 2: to go back to the Iraq the first Iraq war,

410
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Speaker 2: desert Storm. Before we go to desert Storm, let's go

411
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Speaker 2: to these ads. All right, we're back, James. What do

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Speaker 2: you know about the Highway of Death?

413
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Speaker 1: Oh?

414
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Speaker 3: And a little bit about the Highway of Death. Yeah,

415
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Speaker 3: let's a throwback, isn't it.

416
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Speaker 2: It's a throwback. I hear it described by particularly leftists

417
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Speaker 2: on the internet a lot as a US war crime. Yeah,

418
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Speaker 2: and as a spoiler, it's not. It's ugly, it's really hideous.

419
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Speaker 2: It's like a horrifying thing. But it's just war, right,

420
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Speaker 2: And it was come back to fighting combat Yeah, it

421
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Speaker 2: was combatants killing retreating combatants, which people think sometimes shouldn't

422
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Speaker 2: be allowed. But it doesn't really make sense for that

423
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Speaker 2: to not be allowed if you just like know what

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Speaker 2: war is. And I'm going to talk about why here,

425
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Speaker 2: and like I'm not trying to justify this, because nothing

426
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Speaker 2: in war make it does like you don't justify it,

427
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Speaker 2: just is a thing that happens, right, Like it's all

428
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Speaker 2: hideous if you've been through it, you see in humanity

429
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Speaker 2: every second. But one of the things that you learn

430
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Speaker 2: if you study war on an academic level is that

431
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Speaker 2: a massive part of it is retreating. Like all the time,

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Speaker 2: all throughout history, armies retreat, regroup, and then carry out

433
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Speaker 2: additional offensives. Right. That is war in a nutshell, Right,

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Speaker 2: And so when armies are retreating, you're allowed to keep

435
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Speaker 2: killing them. And in fact, that's the norm, and most soldiers,

436
00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,920
Speaker 2: up until the modern era, the vast majority of combat

437
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 2: deaths we're during retreats.

438
00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:57,560
Speaker 3: Right.

439
00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 2: This is the primary way in which soldiers are killed.

440
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,080
Speaker 2: This is when they're retreating.

441
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:02,400
Speaker 3: Right.

442
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,200
Speaker 2: And so what actually happened is in August. So obviously

443
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: August of nineteen ninety, the US leads a coalition against

444
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:13,639
Speaker 2: the Iraqi army who have invaded and occupied Kuwait illegally.

445
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 2: You know, one of my stances on this is that

446
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,520
Speaker 2: Iraq very clearly violated international law and they shouldn't have

447
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: been allowed to occupy Kawait. Now there's a lot of

448
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 2: things about like US involvement in Iraq prior to this,

449
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 2: that are you could say extenuating, including the fact that

450
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: like we had kind of pushed them to invade Iran

451
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 2: and then played both sides of that conflict, and that

452
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 2: was part of what Saddam was pissed about. But that

453
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: doesn't justify in Kuwait being occupied.

454
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 3: Right. You can't just get mad and invade somewhere unless

455
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 3: you're America.

456
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,920
Speaker 2: Unless you're America, which we're going to do to Iraq

457
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 2: not much longer after this, but in this case, you know,

458
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 2: we're more or less on the on the on the

459
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,400
Speaker 2: better side of things, right, and we basically immediately throw

460
00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: the Iraqi army into a full fledged retreat. This culminates

461
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 2: in late February nineteen ninety one with a huge number

462
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,479
Speaker 2: of Iraqi soldiers and military vehicles jammed up on a

463
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: convoy on Highway eighty, which is the highway that connects

464
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: Iraq to Kuwait. And what we do is we use

465
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 2: our planes to blow up vehicles on both ends of

466
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 2: this convoy of like three thousand vehicles, which then traps

467
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: thousands and thousands of soldiers inside these walls of fire.

468
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: So we can spend ten hours bombing them and this

469
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 2: is fucking hideous. The event is memorialized, and this is

470
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 2: part of why people think of it as a war crime.

471
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,359
Speaker 2: In a picture by a photojournalist of the corpse of

472
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: an Iraqi soldier hideously burned, frozen in time as he

473
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 2: tried to flee his flaming tank, and that picture you

474
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 2: can find it. It's I mean, it's horrible. It's a

475
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,639
Speaker 2: great example of why war is bad and we should

476
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 2: do less of it. And it is, you know, it's

477
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: one of those things. A lot of US soldiers who

478
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: participate in this feel uncomfortable with it, feel like they

479
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 2: are unnecessarily killing a large number of people. And you

480
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: can make that case. You can make a case and

481
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: I'll listen to it that this was hideously evil, but

482
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: it's not a war crime. Right now, Sodam's going to

483
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 2: make that claim, arguing that his soldiers are trying to

484
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: peacefully withdraw. But there's like a definition of that, and

485
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: what the Iraqis were doing didn't meet it. What actually

486
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: happened is that the Iraqi army made contact with the

487
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 2: US army and then they went into a retreat. They

488
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 2: were attempting to leave the area after losing a fight

489
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 2: and they had not formally surrendered, And there's nothing an

490
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 2: international law that makes it illegal to kill soldiers who

491
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 2: happened to be withdrawing.

492
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:36,080
Speaker 1: Right.

493
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: A great example of this would be nineteen forty four

494
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 2: during the Battle of Normandy. There are reports of retreating

495
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: German soldiers shot by US soldiers and there was debate

496
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 2: at the time as like, well, is this a violation

497
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: of the Geneva Conventions, right, And the conclusion that was

498
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: generally reached in is that you shouldn't kill an enemy

499
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 2: who is number one not in combat and number two surrendering,

500
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: and there is kind of a blurry line between that

501
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: and retreat. But again, the vast majority of soldiers killed

502
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 2: in war are killed running away, right, Like that's just

503
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 2: kind of how I mean, that's changed a bit in

504
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 2: the modern era, But like, this is I think more

505
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 2: falls under one of those things where everyone sees this

506
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 2: as a nightmare, because it is a nightmare. Those random

507
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 2: Iraqi conscripts did not deserve to burn to death in

508
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,159
Speaker 2: this Charnel house we created on the Highway eighty. And

509
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,639
Speaker 2: also like, well that's just what war is, man. You

510
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: think we didn't do that to the Nazis? You think

511
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,400
Speaker 2: the Nazis didn't do that to the fucking Russians. You think,

512
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: like you think that hasn't happened to every war, Like,

513
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 2: that's just what war is, man, That's why we shouldn't

514
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 2: do it. It's really bad.

515
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fucked. The things are allowed to do a

516
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 3: fuck so you think you're allowed to do Yeah, we

517
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: did do some things in the specifically in that incident,

518
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 3: which are now I don't think the war crimes, but

519
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 3: like they used cluster bombs on the highway of Taks. Yes,

520
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,879
Speaker 3: it's a separate agreement. It's not part of THEMA Convention, right.

521
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a separate agreement. And like

522
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 2: obviously things have, like at our doctrine and kind of

523
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: internet like has changed as a result of that, in

524
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 2: part because like a lot of American soldiers were like,

525
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 2: I really didn't feel good about this. My kid, doesn't

526
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 2: seem like this was necessary at all. Yeah, And I

527
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: don't think it was necessary, right, Like, I don't think

528
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 2: it was needed to do this to beat I think

529
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 2: the Iraqi army was already beaten. But the question isn't

530
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,679
Speaker 2: wasn't necessary? The question is was this not something that

531
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: is generally acceptable in war, and it is because war

532
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: like again, blowing, like making exploding pieces like giant boxes

533
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,200
Speaker 2: filled with shards of metal in order to wound hundreds

534
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 2: of people at a time, it's acceptable in war, right,

535
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: Like it's bad.

536
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, bad things happening. Well, we should have wit if

537
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 3: we can.

538
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's continue our list of things that be

539
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: war crimes. One of them is making improper use of

540
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: a flag of truce. So you're not allowed to like

541
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 2: pretend to surrender or pretend to try to negotiate and

542
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: then start shooting. That's a war crime. Actually, you're not

543
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 2: allowed to transfer parts of the population of like the

544
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: civilian population of a territory you occupy, to other parts

545
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: of your territory, which the Russians have done in Ukraine.

546
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,679
Speaker 2: They have been taking particularly Ukrainian children and moving them

547
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,360
Speaker 2: to elsewhere in Russia, adopting them out to the families.

548
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 3: That is a war crime. Turkey's done it in Aphrem.

549
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 2: Turkey does a hell of a lot of this, right,

550
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: They've done a lot of that in Afrin, yes, as

551
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 2: you said, and obviously the Israelian well, I mean these

552
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 2: really military we're actually gonna talk about their abduction and

553
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 2: imprisonment of Palestinians, because that also violates that arguably violates this,

554
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,360
Speaker 2: but there's a separate segment of the Roman statues that violates.

555
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 2: And then intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science,

556
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: or charitable purposes. I'm thinking about historical monuments. Hospitals very

557
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: easy to find examples of that in Gaza.

558
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: Right.

559
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: Again, the little bit of wiggle room here is like

560
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: if they're being occupied as like an enemy HQ, which

561
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: is basically what everyone claims when they bomb hospitals. Right.

562
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: The US has done this a lot too, like we have,

563
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,280
Speaker 2: especially in Afghanistan. We had a number of hospitals and

564
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 2: it was always like, well, we thought there were some

565
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: guys there we were trying to right, and Russia and

566
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 2: Israel both have extensive histories doing this. During the Syrian

567
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 2: Civil War, Russian planes backing the ASAD regime regularly targeted

568
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: medical facilities in Aleppo at least twenty seven times from

569
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: fall of twenty fifteen to the winter of twenty sixteen.

570
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 2: More recently, Russia has targeted hospitals in Kherson, per this

571
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 2: Guardian article quote. Since December twenty two, the Russian army

572
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: has been bombarding Karson from dug in positions on the

573
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: nearby left eastern flank of the Nipro River. It has

574
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 2: attacked civilian infrastructure including schools, private residential houses, hospitals and

575
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: the railway station. And yeah, it's pretty hideous like these

576
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: are systematic attacks. The Cinema for in Information Resilience has

577
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: documented fourteen separate attacks over six months between December of

578
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: twenty twenty two and May of twenty twenty three, striking

579
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 2: hospital facilities several times with the apparent purpose of degrading

580
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: their capacity to continue to serve the civilian population. The

581
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: targeting of hospit has also been utterly endemic to Israeli

582
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: activities in Gaza. In November of twenty thirteen, they killed

583
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: at least twelve people in attacks on the Indonesian hospital

584
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 2: in bait Lahia, Gaza, and basically every medical facility in

585
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,400
Speaker 2: Gaza has been targeted, and more than twenty of the

586
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 2: thirty five hospitals in Gaza Gaza have at this point

587
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 2: been taken out of service due to damage. The most

588
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: famous of these was the Al Shifa Hospital, which held

589
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,400
Speaker 2: dozens of premature babies, thirty one of whom had to

590
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 2: be evacuated after weeks of losing power to their incubators

591
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 2: and being fed a formula mixed with poisoned water. Eight

592
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: infants died at least I'm sure that number is higher

593
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 2: before evacuation. This is obvious war crime, right.

594
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, A friend, Tara Klubani, who I've interviewed for the

595
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 3: show before, was in the was working with the premature

596
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 3: babies at that time. Yeah, you can find excuse with him.

597
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 3: It's just it's like, I would not recommend reading it

598
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: evenless you want to traumatize yourself. It's honestly one of

599
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 3: the most horrible things I've ever had to try about.

600
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's nightmarish stuff. And I mean a lot of

601
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: these are right. The Rome Statues continues with committing outrages

602
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 2: upon personal dignity and particular humiliating the degrading treatment. And

603
00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: my god, there's a lot of examples of that from Gaza.

604
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: Committing rape, sexual slavery, and forced prostitution, forced pregnancy as

605
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: to find an Article seven paragraph too, and forced sterilization

606
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: or any other form of sexual violence also constitutes a

607
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 2: grave breach of the Geneva Conventions. Utilizing the presence of

608
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 2: a civilian or other protected person to render certain points,

609
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: areas or military forces immune from military operations, So using

610
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: civilians as shields. Right, If you're hiding military forces among

611
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: a civilian populace, you know that is also a war crime.

612
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 2: Intentionally Directing attacks against buildings, material medical units, you know,

613
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: that's supposed to be illegal. Starvation force starvation of civilians

614
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: is supposed to be illegal. And conscripting or enlisting children

615
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: under the age of fifteen years old into the national forces,

616
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: which I've noticed, you know when I would report on

617
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: the YPG, some of the people that I reported on

618
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: that were like seventeen and people like using child soldiers.

619
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 2: You can enlist in the British Army at six team.

620
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 2: That's not legal. Yeah, you seventeen year olds have always

621
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 2: been allowed to do war. Yeah, I think they don't

622
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: deploy them, right, certainly not sixteen year olds, right, Yeah,

623
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: but then the the yeah, and it's I've often women

624
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,920
Speaker 2: at She's from the YPKA, right, because they've come from

625
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 2: abusive homes, and they also make an FM not to

626
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 2: deploy it.

627
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 3: And I understand, yes, yes.

628
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 2: But you are theoretically you're allowed to deploy sixteen year olds, right, Yeah,

629
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 2: so at least as regards international law. So and then

630
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: of course we get to kind of some of the

631
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: some of our our final war crimes, which you know,

632
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 2: I haven't gone over a comprehensive list, but this gives

633
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 2: you a good list of the things covered, you know,

634
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: between the various different statutes and international agreements. Violation to

635
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 2: life in person in particular, murder of all kinds, mutilation,

636
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 2: cruel treatment and torture, committing outrageous upon personal dignity, in

637
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: particular humiliating or degrading treatment, which is maybe the most

638
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: common by numbers thing that I see happening at Gotza, right, certainly,

639
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 2: not like as it does, you know, the killing is

640
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: much more offensive, but like there's so many examples of

641
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 2: like outrages upon personal dignity, you know, the taking of hostages,

642
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 2: the passing of sentences, and the carrying out of executions

643
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 2: without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court. And

644
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: then you get to paragraph two, there's a note like

645
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 2: after this all of this stuff that like you're not

646
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 2: supposed to do violence to life in person, committing outrages

647
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 2: upon personal dignity, taking hostages, doing summary executions, and then

648
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: there's a note that like, this does not apply. This

649
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: applies only to armed conflicts and not situations of internal

650
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: disturbances and tensions such as riots, isolated and sporadic acts

651
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 2: of violence or other acts of a similar nature, which

652
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: is fun to me because it's like the international agreements like, well,

653
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: I mean, countries can do this to their own people

654
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 2: if they want, right, Like, that's not a problem, you know, go,

655
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: which I guess is probably we're in a gray area

656
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: with some of what Israel does to Palestinians here because

657
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 2: like one of the things that has been happening for

658
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: a long time is continue to happen, as there are

659
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 2: presently ninety five hundred at least Palestinians from the occupied

660
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: West Bank in captivity. Prior to October seventh, that was

661
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 2: just fifty two hundred people, so this escalated significantly after that.

662
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: Most of these were people who had been arrested before

663
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 2: for stuff literally like waving a flag or like posting

664
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: on social media in sympathy with Gaza. Fifteen of these

665
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 2: people have died since October seventh. A number of them

666
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: have been tortured and beaten. This is the kind of

667
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: thing that could be a warcrime, except for again you

668
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: have that little note that like this doesn't apply to

669
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: internal disturbances in the West Bank, you can say that

670
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: that's an internal disturbance, right, which is you know, shit, yeah, yeah,

671
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: I don't love that. That's the way that that works.

672
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's one of those things. And another thing,

673
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 2: you know, to be fair here, one thing I should note,

674
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: because we're about to talk about the actual ICC investigation

675
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: that's going on, the taking of hostages is a war crime.

676
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 2: So it's there's been a lot of talk about because

677
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 2: there's been disinformation about how many civilians did Hamas kill, right,

678
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: like how many we had that bleak period if we

679
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: were arguing looking at dead babies and arguing where those

680
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: babies beheaded or their heads just come off because they burned?

681
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 2: To like, Hamas definitely committed war crimes, and we know

682
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: that because they admitted to them, because they the Hamas

683
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 2: does not deny that they took hostages. That's a war crime. Right. Again,

684
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: should you be as offended by the taking of hostages

685
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,959
Speaker 2: as the killing of thirty five thousand people from the sky?

686
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 2: Well no, But I would also say that the taking

687
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 2: of hostages is not like tear gassing a sniper. I

688
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 2: think that that's bad. You shouldn't take civilian hostages. Yeah,

689
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 2: that makes sense as a war crime to me. Now

690
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 2: this kind of leads us to the crux of our discussion,

691
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 2: which is like, should you actually care about what a

692
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: war crime is and isn't right? And I'm gonna argue yes,

693
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: even though, as we've made the case here, it's not

694
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 2: a perfect thing. This is not a perfect Whether or

695
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 2: not something is a war crime does not make it

696
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 2: a perfect measure of morality. I don't think a soldier

697
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: tossing a tear gas grenade and a sniper because they

698
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: don't want to get shot by a sniper is like

699
00:34:59,840 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: a thing that is horrifying to me. And I do

700
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 2: think that, for example, the use of shrapnel shells is

701
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: horrifying to me, having seen what happens to people when

702
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 2: they get gutted by shrapnel. I don't think those are good,

703
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 2: and I know what I think is a worse thing

704
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 2: to do. But even with that taken into account, I

705
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 2: think that a lot of this does matter, and that

706
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: it is good that the ICC has recently announced a

707
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: set of warrants both against Benjamin Netanyahu and against three

708
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 2: Hamas leaders, right. And I saw some people saying when

709
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 2: this got announced that there were like these warrants against

710
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: these Hamas leaders alongside net Yahou and his defense minister.

711
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 2: You'll have gallant that like, oh, they're both sides in it. No,

712
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: Hamas took hostages. If the ICC is going after Israel

713
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 2: for its clear and obvious war crimes, we know that

714
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: Hamas took hostages. It's not wrong that the ICC would

715
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 2: issue a warrant there. That's their job, right, And I

716
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 2: think that that actually it's kind of important to do

717
00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: that because if you don't, the Israelis are going to

718
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: be like, well, they took hostages, that's definitely a war crime.

719
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: The ICC is invalid because they're not prosecuting this now.

720
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 2: The reality is that not only has Israel is now

721
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: Israel kind of gearing up to go to war with

722
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: the International Criminal Court, that they have been doing that

723
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: for years prior to October seventh, right, and in fact,

724
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 2: a couple of years ago, I think in twenty twenty one,

725
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: the ICC launched an investigation into Israeli actions in Gaza.

726
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: Right.

727
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: This started when the former prosecutor of the ICC, Fatub

728
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 2: Bensuda made the call to like yes, start a formal investigation,

729
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: and that culminated a couple of weeks ago in the

730
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 2: ICC issuing an arrest warrant for Benjamin Nan Yahoo. And

731
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: when that process started, there is evidence that the former

732
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: head of the Massad, the guy who's running the massade

733
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: at the time, Yo C. Cohen, made contact with an

734
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: ICC prosecutor and basically threatened him. And I'm actually I'm

735
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: going to read a quote from a already an article here.

736
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: Cohen's personal involvement in the operation against the ICC took

737
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: place when he was the director of the Massad. His

738
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 2: activities were authorized at a high level and justified on

739
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: the basis the court posed a threat of prosecutions against

740
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: military personnel, according to a senior Israeli official. Another Israeli

741
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 2: source briefed on the operation against Bensuda said that the

742
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 2: Masad's objective was to compromise the prosecutor or enlist her

743
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: as someone who could cooperate with Israel's demands. A third

744
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: source familiar with the operation said Cohen was acting as

745
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 2: Netanya Who's unofficial messenger. Cohen, who was one of Netanyahu's

746
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 2: closest allies, at the time and is emerging as a

747
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,399
Speaker 2: political force in his own right, and Israel personally led

748
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: the massault Asad's involvement in an almost decade long campaign

749
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 2: by the country to undermine the court. According to account

750
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: shared with ICC officials, he's alleged to have told her,

751
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 2: you should help us and let us take care of you.

752
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 2: You don't want to be getting into things that could

753
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 2: compromise your security or that of your family, which is

754
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: very much mob shit, right like, it couldn't be more

755
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: mob shit. And it's like, I don't actually think that

756
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: is a war crime. I don't even know, because I

757
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: guess they didn't even think anyone would do that, right

758
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:04,319
Speaker 2: like that, you would just like, hey, you know, we

759
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: could break your fucking legs, you know, misprosecutor lady, like

760
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 2: we the Masad. I don't even know that that because

761
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 2: at least from my reading over of the Rome statutes,

762
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 2: that's not listed. Maybe they should add that one in there.

763
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, this has been a brief overview of what

764
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,400
Speaker 2: be a war crime. I hope you find this helpful

765
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 2: in your discussions of what be a war crime. But

766
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: I do kind of want to end on the note again,

767
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: does any of this matter. What's going to Well, no,

768
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: do I think that, like Benjamin that and Yahoo's going

769
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 2: to actually be taken to den Haag and fucking chains.

770
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: I mean maybe someday. Actually, I don't think that that's impossible.

771
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: I don't think we should give up hope for that,

772
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,080
Speaker 2: and this is a necessary precursor to that. And I

773
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: think it's good. I think the evidence that this is valuable.

774
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,239
Speaker 2: If you actually, if you want my best case for

775
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 2: why this matters, Israel spent ten years previous to the

776
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: announcement of this warrant running devoting MASAD resources to an

777
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: undergrand campaign to aboutage and threaten the ICC. That means

778
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: they see this as a threat. They consider prosecutions like

779
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: this to be dangerous to them, and that means you

780
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: should at least passively support what the ICC is doing here,

781
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: right Netan, Yahoo's regime considers this a threat to their operations,

782
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 2: to what they're doing in Gaza, and I think that's

783
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: enough of a reason to think that it's good.

784
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, they think it's going to stop them murdering civilians,

785
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 3: then yeah, it's good that we don't need to be

786
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: around the bush too much like anyway, Yeah, it would

787
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 3: be nice to see someone who wasn't from Africa prosecuted

788
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 3: at the Hague.

789
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,040
Speaker 2: That would be hey, yeah, they got those Serbians, right,

790
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 2: they did get they got a couple of Yeah, yeah,

791
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: it's true. Uh yeah, yeah, let's throw an Israeli or too,

792
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: and they're and yeah, some of those some oscarys. I'm like,

793
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 2: look something, let's try to do something.

794
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: Yeah.

795
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe maybe let's let's make a statement that it's

796
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 3: bad to murder and kidnapped civilians.

797
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 2: It's bad to Yeah, I don't know. We're very critical

798
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 2: of the idea that there ever was a rules based

799
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: international order, but I think we should try that sometime.

800
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 3: It's pretty nice to have some rules.

801
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, James, anything else to add before we cut

802
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:13,680
Speaker 2: out here.

803
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:15,280
Speaker 3: Don't engage in warar crimes.

804
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 2: Don't commit a war crime. Yeah, don't commit a war crime.

805
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 2: Avoid that if you can.

806
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 3: Don't engage in war if you don't have to, really.

807
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 2: Try to avoid war. Because one of the things reading

808
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: through this just I think about all the things I've

809
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: seen that I'm like, well, I could argue that that

810
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,359
Speaker 2: was a war crime. You know, they happen a lot,

811
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: it turns out, or at least edge cases are most

812
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 2: of the things you see in war. Yes, anyway, We're done.

813
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: It could Happen here as a production of pool Zone Media.

814
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

815
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

816
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

817
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated

818
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: monthly at cool Zone need a dot com slash sources.

819
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.