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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Richard. As you said at the beginning of our conversation,

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Speaker 2: you are a bit of a debunker in the tech world.

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Speaker 2: That was part of your job. You've certainly done some

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Speaker 2: of that and UFO world as well. An example is

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Speaker 2: incidents at nuclear missile sites, and of course you know

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Speaker 2: there's been some pretty highly publicized events. I recall Washington

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Speaker 2: Post even published an article or two about the Northern

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Speaker 2: Tier cases. They're called five different nuclear bases that were

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Speaker 2: visited by UFOs, one right after the other in the seventies.

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Speaker 2: And I guess Tim Phillips, former HANCHO at Arrow, had

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Speaker 2: come out with a statement regarding at least one of

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Speaker 2: those instances where he says Arrow never found any evidence

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Speaker 2: to confirm these things. You found something to the contrary.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us what you found?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, okay. So I just want to emphasize that

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Speaker 3: it's actually so easy to find these reports, like high

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Speaker 3: school student writing report. You know, could could find them trivially.

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Speaker 3: For example, July sixth, nineteen fifty two, just a few

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Speaker 3: days where DC's overflowing pilot sea flying saucer over Hanford

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Speaker 3: Atomic Plant. That was wild the report of there were

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Speaker 3: four veteran pilots, by the way, and there's there's actually

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Speaker 3: many variants of that that's easily found. Seattle, Washington, July fifth, nineteen.

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Speaker 3: This is July fifth, nineteen forty seven. A quote a startling,

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Speaker 3: startling statements of a definite relationship between atomic energy and

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Speaker 3: quote flying dis focused attention today on the big Hanford

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Speaker 3: Atomic Plant in south central Washington. Bulk of the flying

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Speaker 3: dis reports have generated in a wide circle through Idaho, Washington,

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Speaker 3: and Oregon surrounding the Hanford Works. So that's all the

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Speaker 3: way back to forty seven. You know, we could just

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Speaker 3: keep going on and on and on. Okay, July six,

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Speaker 3: forty seven, the commanding officer of the Hanford Engineering Works

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Speaker 3: said the saucers are not coming from the atomic plant there,

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Speaker 3: but he did talk about that that they were having

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Speaker 3: saucer settings, and other articles talk about jets being sent

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Speaker 3: up Sanda Base. And keep in mind that a lot

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Speaker 3: of some of these, I wouldn't say a lot some

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Speaker 3: of these articles are local people reporting them to their

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Speaker 3: local newspaper editors. Whatever. We have one here in July

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Speaker 3: twenty fifth, nineteen fifty two Alberquerque Journal, and it said

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Speaker 3: it's this is it sounds like a couple And they

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Speaker 3: spotted a fast, a fast moving, a fast turning UAP

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Speaker 3: over the area of San Dia Base, which is one

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Speaker 3: of the most critical facilities in the US atomic weapons

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Speaker 3: program in the forties and fifties. It traveled at tremendous

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Speaker 3: speed up and like turned on the dime essentially. And

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Speaker 3: they also heard a sound like a shotgun go off

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Speaker 3: when it happened, and they reported that. And I could

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Speaker 3: just go on and on and on, George like a flyer. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's just you know, these reports were reported to the CIA,

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Speaker 3: which was the predecessor of the FAA. So there's you know,

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Speaker 3: somewhere deep in the archives, there's a paper trail. I

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Speaker 3: even have a report. This isn't rare, this is super rare.

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Speaker 3: So right before Japan was attacked in mid July forty five,

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Speaker 3: and this is what I found in nikap's database. UFO

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Speaker 3: citing over Hanford Nuclear reactor jets were sent up. There

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Speaker 3: were six f jets with the ceiling of thirty seven

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Speaker 3: k feet. They tried to reach it, they couldn't. It

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Speaker 3: hovered over the Hanford nuclear reactor. And by the way,

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Speaker 3: that hovering that that's reported quite a bit in these articles.

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Speaker 3: Whatever was going on, these things would tend to sit

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Speaker 3: around and you know it.

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Speaker 2: Can sound like an airplane.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Even blue book files on the government's

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Speaker 3: own you know, National Chimes website, I have found the

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Speaker 3: most amazing Actually, another another excuser found some one amazing

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Speaker 3: report on there where hundreds of personnel at one you

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Speaker 3: know installation. We're watching blinking UAPs. You know it is

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Speaker 3: in forty nine. Here it is. They used artillery observation

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Speaker 3: and plotting methods to rule out stars and planes. This

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Speaker 3: is over Killeen Base, a nuclear weapons facility, over several

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Speaker 3: nights in forty nine, over one hundred men in officers

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Speaker 3: and that, by the way, these are ant official, unclassified

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Speaker 3: US government files, so nobody can argue this. This These

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Speaker 3: are real files. And in Georgie, I could just go

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Speaker 3: on and on and on and on. It's it's really bottomless.

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Speaker 3: So for someone to claim in public in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 3: there's no evidence of this, it's just ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: You run into Project Twinkle, they were seeing these green

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Speaker 2: fireballs over Los Alamos, over San Dia over White sands.

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Speaker 2: They started a study, and it seemed like wherever they'd

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Speaker 2: put cameras to kind of capture these things or radar sites,

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Speaker 2: they go somewhere.

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Speaker 3: Else, uh, in my opinion, so that it went dark

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Speaker 3: it when classified. For example, we know they were putting

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Speaker 3: cameras all over the country. You know, they bought two

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Speaker 3: hundred plus cameras. They said in one article, this is

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Speaker 3: the United States Air Force and they put them over

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Speaker 3: seventy seven installations. Where did the photos go? In the sixties,

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Speaker 3: the Air Force guys, the ex Air Force guys said

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Speaker 3: that they had tons and tons of photos and motion

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Speaker 3: picture evidence. Where did it go?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Was it burned? Was it destroyed? Do they have in

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Speaker 3: some area fifty one art cove? I have no idea,

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Speaker 3: but they it's a hell of a lot of cameras,

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Speaker 3: you know, and you don't send up planes with cameras

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Speaker 3: unless there's something going on, right, It's not just all

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Speaker 3: balloons and swamp gas. So yeah, going back to Colonel

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Speaker 3: Robert S. Allen, he wrote, I want to emphasize this

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Speaker 3: is that his articles talking about the situation were so

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Speaker 3: detailed I just had to put them in the public

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Speaker 3: like so in one of his articles, it's a few

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Speaker 3: months after DC's overflown on September twenty six, fifty two.

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Speaker 3: He has a list of the locations of the most

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Speaker 3: important of these sightings. In New Mexico. He reported Los

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Speaker 3: Alamos and White Sands Atomic Plant and testing grounds, Albuquerque

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Speaker 3: and the Holloman, Kirkland, and Walker air bases, and he

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Speaker 3: goes on and on and on. This is an enormous list,

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Speaker 3: and I want to emphasize like, as a researcher in

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Speaker 3: fifty two, very few my cap didn't exist at the time.

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Speaker 3: One of the major groups. You just had local groups.

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Speaker 3: He has this huge list all over the country, from

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Speaker 3: you know, Wright Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio to

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Speaker 3: South Dakota to Michigan, Massachusetts, Nebraska, North Carolina, Tennessee, California's

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Speaker 3: going on. Only someone who was really, really an expert

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Speaker 3: at the time in late fifty two could have composed this.

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Speaker 3: And he reported that there was a massive United States

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Speaker 3: Air Force report that they were thinking about releasing it,

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Speaker 3: like I mentioned earlier on in the show, and they

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Speaker 3: changed their mind, so we did have we do I

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Speaker 3: was a summer of the report, right, and he reported

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Speaker 3: in there that Russia. I'm quoting now, Russia's profoundly mystified

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Speaker 3: and worried about flying saucers and strongly suspects they're a

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Speaker 3: new US weapon, which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah, And there's

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Speaker 3: there is another new finding I want to point out there,

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Speaker 3: and I believe no one's talked about, and that is

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Speaker 3: the ground Observer corpse in July fifty two. This is

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Speaker 3: a huge to me, this is a huge finding. So

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Speaker 3: what I found, what I kept stumbling on in newspapers

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Speaker 3: searching for UFO reports in fifty two July specifically, was

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Speaker 3: Ground Observer Corps Groundserver GOC. It was basically this huge

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Speaker 3: organized effort official across the entire country. We had hundreds

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Speaker 3: of observation posts. It spiked up to eight hundred thousand

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Speaker 3: to one million individuals depending on the source you get

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Speaker 3: it from. It was huge. And they went on twenty

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Speaker 3: four hour, twenty four to seven alert in early July

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Speaker 3: in this report of all over newspapers, and it's even

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Speaker 3: in the Truman Library, Like President Truman made a state

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Speaker 3: about this in December, and and I just posted Truman

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Speaker 3: statement on my ex account and Truman said that there,

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Speaker 3: you know, there are low flying craft that can't be

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Speaker 3: seen on radar. Well, in July fifty two, that's why

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Speaker 3: we had to go on twenty four hour alert. Well,

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Speaker 3: wait a second, what Soviet aircraft in July ninety fifty

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Speaker 3: two could fly all the way from the Soviet Union,

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Speaker 3: then go low and then dodge every single radar in

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Speaker 3: between the and Soviet It doesn't make any sense, George,

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Speaker 3: It makes no sense. It gets more interesting somehow they

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Speaker 3: went on twenty four to seven alert before DC was overflown,

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Speaker 3: so they had a heads up. George. It makes it's

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Speaker 3: a fascinating The more I dig, the more I'm finding

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Speaker 3: that what we know of UFO history and actually you know,

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Speaker 3: just United States history, is it's just a narrative. Like

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Speaker 3: if you go to the primary sources, it's very different.

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Speaker 2: You ever look for or find something about men in

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Speaker 2: black MIBs?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I found a handful. Well, the first thing

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Speaker 3: I found is an official US government document and and

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Speaker 3: this was actually published in a book in the early

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Speaker 3: is a really important book called Clear Intent. And you

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Speaker 3: know this is you might be familiar with this, your lis,

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Speaker 3: But I find this fascinating. I have an exit. I

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Speaker 3: think I have a perhaps an explanation. March first, nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixty seven, Air Force Assistant Vice Chief says, Hey, these

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Speaker 3: mysterious individuals are showing up and they are personating our offices,

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Speaker 3: and they were taking photos and they're telling people they're

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Speaker 3: from Nora d and whatever. And he wanted, you know,

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Speaker 3: a FO see the Air Force Office of Special Investigations

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Speaker 3: to investigate it. And people, you know, they hear this

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Speaker 3: and they think, oh, it must be some paranormal event, right,

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Speaker 3: like some spooky you know, you know, maybe an alien

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Speaker 3: showed up and took the photo. Actually I don't, I

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Speaker 3: don't think so this was probably Listen if you trace

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Speaker 3: this in the I legal The legal framework was established

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Speaker 3: literally the day after Roswell it started to go into place.

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Speaker 3: July ninth, nineteen forty seven, they debunked Roswell with the

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Speaker 3: balloons just by newspaper articles and had events all over

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Speaker 3: the country about weather ballions. Later July ninth, nineteen forty seven,

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Speaker 3: the Senate votes on the National Security Act of nineteen

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Speaker 3: forty seven. So it's clear that if you can think

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Speaker 3: about this situation, think about it. I think about the

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Speaker 3: situation like this storie. There seems to be some sort

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Speaker 3: of covert force either here or close by, I don't

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Speaker 3: I don't know where, and they can fly over any

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Speaker 3: time they want, and they can cause hysteria and panic

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Speaker 3: in the military air force, you know, or eat operators

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Speaker 3: and civilians. Right, So it would make absolute perfect sense

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Speaker 3: for them to have agencies established to manage the situation

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Speaker 3: and ongoing emergency essentially. And so I have no doubt

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Speaker 3: whatsoever they were sending around people. You know, people would report, oh,

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Speaker 3: I have a photo, and then they would send somebody

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Speaker 3: to get the photos. You know, it needed to gather

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Speaker 3: the intelligence essentially. So I have that. I don't have

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Speaker 3: a lot. I hate to disappoint you, George, I don't

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Speaker 3: have a whole lot of m IB reportslable. I absolutely

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Speaker 3: love them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I imagine it was very weird for somebody to

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Speaker 2: report it anywhere. What would you do? I mean, you know,

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Speaker 2: who do you tell?

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Speaker 3: Yeah or something? Oh, I was on the break, I

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Speaker 3: was searching. I was like, hey, what can I find?

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Speaker 3: And NATO they were impersonating NATO, you know, They're like,

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Speaker 3: I'm from NATO and I want this right, So it

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Speaker 3: might be possible. I'm going to poke around over the

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Speaker 3: next few weeks and see if I can find anything.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned clear intent, and I have to tell you

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Speaker 2: that is the one book. I mean, there were several

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Speaker 2: I wrote back in that period and when it was

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Speaker 2: cramming for it, but that is the one book that

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Speaker 2: got me hooked on it as a reporter because this

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Speaker 2: is a paper trail. These are government documents that these guys,

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Speaker 2: those authors dug up and various organizations and lawyers had

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Speaker 2: forced out of the government. And that made me think

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Speaker 2: this is doable. This is something that a reporter can

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Speaker 2: follow because it is based on government info, government file.

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Speaker 2: So it was it was a very important book in

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Speaker 2: my own development. I think it's reissued under a different title,

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Speaker 2: but it was a perfect piece of work.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, in the newspaper, So there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: newspaper coverage from the individuals that I think it was

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Speaker 3: the Citizenens Citizens against UFO Secrecy c a US. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: they had good press relations and they kept just releasing

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Speaker 3: things to the press as they found it right, and

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Speaker 3: the information that appeared in newspapers in the late seventies

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Speaker 3: and early eighties about the UFO cover up was amazing,

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Speaker 3: Like CIA, you know, they're talking about the CIA interest

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Speaker 3: in UFOs and how the CIA in the NSA whatever,

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Speaker 3: we're keeping all the docs and not releasing them. And

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Speaker 3: you know, in one case in the early eighties, they

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Speaker 3: only were allowed I think the judge was only allowed

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Speaker 3: to look at look at it under you know, it

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Speaker 3: was like camera right, yeah, exactly, it's cleared. Like in

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Speaker 3: the olden days. They used to just pretend this didn't

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Speaker 3: exist at all, like when I was growing up eighties,

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Speaker 3: you know, eighties and nineties, and you know, and clearly

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Speaker 3: at this point, at this point, any school student could

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Speaker 3: wait in the newspapers dot com or go to the

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Speaker 3: California newspaper reposits where just free, and just start searching,

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Speaker 3: and within a few hours now the narratives are going

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Speaker 3: to blow up. You're going to see that. You know,

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Speaker 3: we had massive waves of UAP over the United States

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Speaker 3: in forty seven, fifty two, sixty six, sixty seven, and

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Speaker 3: then in between and of course to the modern era,

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Speaker 3: and then in between you know, thousands, literally thousands and

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Speaker 3: thousands of UFO sightings reported by local people to their

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Speaker 3: local newspapers.

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Speaker 2: You had an interesting piece that involves Carl Sagan making

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Speaker 2: a startling admission. A couple of days ago. Do you

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Speaker 2: recall the details?

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So in sixty eight there was a hearing.

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Speaker 3: It was called the rawsh Hearing, and it was US

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Speaker 3: Congressional hearing on UFOs formally titled the Symposium on Unidentified

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Speaker 3: Flying Objects. So I found this through laborious keyword searching.

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Speaker 3: It took days and days to find this, you know,

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Speaker 3: I somehow stumbled on it. And so doctor Carl Sagan

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Speaker 3: is testifying. It was also Heinech there, Menzel and some

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Speaker 3: other you know, I think mc donald was there as well.

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Speaker 3: Since sixty eight. This is right before the Common Report

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Speaker 3: lands and then right before the Air Force Blue Book

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Speaker 3: project goes under. And so Sagan says this, he says,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to quote him. The key quote is this quote. Apparently,

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Speaker 3: what is now happening is that the Air Force surveillance

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Speaker 3: radar is throwing away the data that is of relevance

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Speaker 3: for this inquiry. In other words, if it sees something

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Speaker 3: that is not on a ballistic trajectory we're not in orbit,

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Speaker 3: it ignores it, it throws it in the garbage. Well,

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Speaker 3: that garbage is just the area of our interests. So

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Speaker 3: if some method could be devised by the Air Force

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Speaker 3: to save the output that they are throwing away from

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Speaker 3: these space surveillance radars. It might be the least expensive

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Speaker 3: way to significantly improve our information about these phenomena unquote.

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Speaker 3: That is a fascinating That is an absolutely fascinating revelation.

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Speaker 3: That's a revelation. Wait a second, there's no way in

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Speaker 3: nineteen sixty eight we're going to throw away In my opinion,

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Speaker 3: there's no way in hell we're gonna throw away anything

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Speaker 3: like we were overflown in waves forty seven, nineteen fifty,

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifty two, nineteen sixty six. So there's no way

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Speaker 3: we're going to go, Oh, we're just going to throw

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Speaker 3: away anything's moving too fast. That's that's to me. I think, what,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, what Sagan? This is the I guess

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Speaker 3: the extent of what Sagan knew. However, it turns out

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Speaker 3: Sagan had had a couple of security clearances through NASA

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Speaker 3: and another another organization, So he had a very high

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Speaker 3: security clearance through Project A one one nine. And so

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Speaker 3: the question now historically is what was he allowed to say?

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Speaker 3: Were they really throwing the data away? I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: I think it was just being scrolled away to another compartment,

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Speaker 3: is my opinion, it.

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Speaker 2: Was very Sagan was much more open minded about the

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Speaker 2: topic earlier. You know, he was interested clearly, and somewhere

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Speaker 2: along the line he changed on a dime and went

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Speaker 2: the other way, and you know, you see a book

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Speaker 2: like Contact, which became a really bause the movie. Yep,

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Speaker 2: he certainly seemed to have a broader ideas than what

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Speaker 2: he expressed during his career.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he worked on nuclear weapons related stuff actually, so

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Speaker 3: that would be the highest of highest clearances. So I

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Speaker 3: hate to say this because I'm a big fan of

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Speaker 3: Sagan's work. Of course watched it, you know, as a child,

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Speaker 3: I read his books and stuff. Unfortunately, we have a

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Speaker 3: kind of a Donald Menzel light situation here, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: where we can't really be sure anything any work that

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Speaker 3: any of Sagans work that intersects with the UAP problem.

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Speaker 3: We have to go and question it. We're going to go, okay,

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Speaker 3: let's just you know, quarantine this because he had a clearance.

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Speaker 3: And that's actually how I work in general with this

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Speaker 3: research is if we know somebody has a clearance or

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Speaker 3: likely had a clearance, well it's not their fault.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: They have to sometimes not say things because you know,

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Speaker 3: tell a friend telling enemy. As Jim's Semivan XCA officer

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Speaker 3: would say. He has said in the.

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Speaker 1: Past, listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight

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